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Shantanu,
Minnetonka, USA to Moscow in Russia.
Is yoga *mandatory* or *compulsory* in these places you are citing? Just asking.
kk: Your innocence is touching! You and I both know that the opponents of “Pranayam” and “Surya Namaskar” in MP were not die-hard liberals!
The real point is – in spite of overwhelming evidence re. the beneficial aspects of Yoga and Pranayam, why should they not be introduced in schools in addition to British-inherited PT classes (which are of course mandatory)?
Shantanu,
You and I both know that the opponents of “Pranayam†and “Surya Namaskar†in MP were not die-hard liberals!
Completely agree. 100%. But does that invalidate their stand against making it mandatory?
in spite of overwhelming evidence re. the beneficial aspects of Yoga and Pranayam, why should they not be introduced in schools in addition to British-inherited PT classes
If indeed this is the point you want to make, then cite the evidence (well researched, peer-reviewed studies atleast) and make a systematic case for it which will be worth reading.
Being a liberal, I’m *assuming* that you would not support making Yoga mandatory towards this goal. Your provocative false juxtaposition hints towards what you stated earlier in an earlier discussion with Salil/Patriot: State playing an active role to *protect* native traditions.
Again, this is your blog, so you have complete freedom to voice your opinions.
@kk: I’m loving this! So the opposition to Pranayam was because it was mandatory? Are you kidding me?!
As for the beneficial aspects of Yoga, there is increasing evidence of it (including scientific studies). A google search should throw up at least a few if not more results…but I may explicitly address this in a separate blog post.
And making “Yoga” compulsory has nothing to do with being a liberal or not. I would support compulsory “Yoga” in *government-funded* schools just as there is a compulsory uniform and just as singing the national anthem is compulsory.
Now, dont drag me into another discussion about whether being a “liberal”, I support government-funded schools or not?!
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If indeed this is the point you want to make, then cite the evidence (well researched, peer-reviewed studies atleast) and make a systematic case for it which will be worth reading.
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And do the rest of the mandatory subjects taught to students pass this well-researched, peer reviewed test?
@ Kaffir: And do the rest of the mandatory subjects taught to students pass this well-researched, peer reviewed test? good one!
…especially “History”!!
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@ kk: And do these “liberals” who oppose mandatory “Yoga” feel the same anger/anguish against a particular kind of subsidy that comes out of the mandatory taxes paid by citizens?
Shantanu,
Before I am misrepresented:
(1) I am not arguing that all the material that is taught right now is peer-reviewed.
(2) I am not arguing that History that is taught is peer reviewed (How I wish that was the case!)
(3) People who started this particular case are “liberals” or did it for liberal cause.
(4) One should or should not mandate yoga because he is or he is not a liberal (I take my words back about my assumptions).
(5) I am not arguing for/against yoga in general.
So let us get to the point.
I would support compulsory “Yoga†in *government-funded* schools
Thanks for making that clear. I am not in the favor of making it *mandatory*. You are just as much entitled to your opinion as much as I am.
I request that you (or some guest) write a well-researched rebuttal to the *sugggestions* made at the end of this article making a case for *mandatory* or *compulsory* yoga in schools on this blog. (Kaffir may love to do this!!)
Do we need Yoga?
(Sure title is provocative, which blogger doesnt crave for attention!).
I understand that the post above is not peer-reviewed.
Meanwhile, if people want to misrepresent me and gang-up to bash me for my opinion to not make it *mandatory*, you are welcome to. I will sit along the sidelines and watch it till I see a rebuttal to above post. To each his own.
@ KK: I had a quick look at the link…The second sentence of the second paragraph of the article is telling (emphasis added).
I think most people would agree that “Yoga is fairly popular”. So to preface an article by saying “it is made out to have widespread presence and acceptance” is deliberately setting the tone for a one-sided discourse (in my opinion).
There is another sentence in one of the author’s comments towards the end which I do not agree with:
I do not believe so. Yoga is not for ascetics – it is meant for enhancing general well-being…but this deserves a separate blog post…will get someone more knowledgeable than me to comment…
And finally, let the “rational” mind not be so arrogant to believe that anything that cannot be demonstrated in a “scientific” experiment or explained using current state of our knowledge is false.
You (and other rationals/sceptics) may enjoy reading this: Humbled by the Unexplained Darkness
Shantanu,
I had a quick look at the link
You quick look and quick response doesn’t answer anything. Justification for making it *mandatory* is what I am looking for. Like I said before, you are entitled to your opinion. If you have already made up your mind to make yoga *mandatory* then an elaborate article as the one I cited above will do nothing. Let readers read the article and make up their minds.
I will look forward to an elaborate post rebutting the above article citing *controlled experiments* which conclusively show that yoga should be made *mandatory*. Till then, it is just play of words or attacking motivations of opinion holders, which has little value. I say this as a regular practitioner of meditation. Personal experiences amount to nothing.
Again, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am and more over this is your blog.
Just out of curiosity (ignore it if you will), is it policy of FTI also to make yoga *mandatory* in schools?
kk, that link finds fault with studies done on the health benefits of yoga, but then turns around and uses anecdotal studies to highlight injuries and such. Were those studies that are critical of yoga “well-researched and peer-reviewed”? If not, then why is the writer discrediting the former, but using the latter?
Besides, the prejudice of “Nirmukta” in being anti-Hindu and anti-religion (though with the one notable exception of Islam for obvious reasons – the writers know very well what happened to Taslima, Danish cartoonists and Rushdie) is quite evident.
I also agree with what Shantanu mentioned – yoga wasn’t just for ascetics, though I do think that teaching of yoga today has become limited to asanas when there’s a whole philosophy of ethical behavior that goes with it, as outlined in Patanjali’s yoga sutras.
As for proliferation of different types of yoga – that’s because of liberalism of Hinduism where one can start one’s own yoga type and there’s no central authority dictating what yoga should be and what it shouldn’t be, and who should teach yoga and who shouldn’t. It depends on the user to research the type of yoga and the teacher, to filter out chaff from the wheat, or to discover what works for that particular user. Pointing at chaff to discredit wheat is not rational by any means.
If the writer were advocating for some kind of standardization of different yoga practices, or for the government to set up some regulations/guidelines to make it easier for users to discern wheat from the chaff, or for better studies, I’d agree with him; but the hostility to yoga is hardly hidden in the writer’s post and sets up a ‘us vs. them’ divide.
Scepticism is good, but it’s also worthwhile to know that a cat that sat on a hot stove will also avoid all cold stoves. Frankly speaking, I find “rationalists” like those on Nirmukta very arrogant and with blinders on (likely because of their specific negative experiences of Hindu beliefs forced on them during their childhood by their parents or some authority), who let their “scepticism” get in the way of tasting the pudding for themselves, or use “rationalism” to hide their anti-Hindu prejudices.
I also haven’t seen much credible evidence that leads me to believe that there’s a divide between science and religion when it comes to Hinduism and that Hinduism is anti-science, as there is wrt Christianity (Intelligent Design, abortion etc.). Attempts by “rationalists” in this direction seem forced and a projection – drawing the graph first based on western history/dynamics of science vs. religion, and then trying to force-fit the data points.
kaffir,
You do raise some valid points. Sure author may exhibit some bias. I am not here to defend the biases that author exhibits. Also as far as I remember, there have been posts about islam on that site wrt UN resolution on blasphemy laws and attack on statesman news paper office. (example post here . I haven’t been reading that blog lately. Anyways, that is not the topic of discussion at hand.
Likely because of their specific negative experiences of Hindu beliefs forced on them during their childhood by their parents or some authority
I guess you are not suggesting that some of negative beliefs are not part of Hindu culture? If they are, then isn’t it fair to talk about them? I laud Shantanu’s posts to question some of the practices in Hinduism.
I also haven’t seen much credible evidence that leads me to believe that there’s a divide between science and religion when it comes to Hinduism and that Hinduism is anti-science, as there is wrt Christianity
In my opinion, this is a valid point. Some may disagree.
But, your personal experiences say that there’s no divide between Hinduism and science. Someone else’s experience may say otherwise (like you mentioned above). You may find their direction forced and they may not. Again as I say, ascribing motivations to authors is only good up to a certain point, after that you cant have a valid argument.
Let us get back to the topic at hand: Do you support making yoga *mandatory*? If your answer is yes, then I request you to write an elaborate post making a case for *mandatory* yoga practice in schools. I would really enjoy reading a well-researched article which can make a case for *mandatory* yoga practice.
A part of my comment got deleted while composing.
We probably share much common perspectives in a much general sense about the whole science-yoga-hinduism-christianity-islam debate. So lets not get diverted. I am against making sweeping generalizations and am cautioning against *mandatory*. I hope one can see the distinction.
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I guess you are not suggesting that some of negative beliefs are not part of Hindu culture? If they are, then isn’t it fair to talk about them?
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No, I’m not suggesting that Hinduism and all its practices are perfect and shouldn’t be questioned. What I’m saying is that for some “rationalists”, their anti-Hindu stance is a reaction to their personal experiences of grown-ups forcing certain rituals/beliefs on them, but it (their stance) is made out to be an objective, universal truth. If they acknowledged their personal experience as such and how it affects their view, it would be a non-issue.
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But, your personal experiences say that there’s no divide between Hinduism and science. Someone else’s experience may say otherwise (like you mentioned above).
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Let me clarify. What I mean is that as with Christianity and in the west, there is an active and well-funded resistance to certain scientific theories (evolution) and policies (funding of abortion) – which, by the way, are not personal subjective experiences, but non-ambiguous social issues – as well as a historical context to opposition of some – not all – scientific theories which contradict earth and human’s genesis as outlined in The Book, I do not find similar resistance to scientific theories or to scientific endeavors. Sure, you’ll find individuals who hold on to certain beliefs and there are superstitions (harmless as well as harmful), but I do not see a dynamic similar to Christianity-west when it comes to Hinduism-India. Furthermore, dismissing practices of yoga and meditation without making an attempt to study them and their benefits, as some “rationalists” do, is close-minded behavior at best, not to mention unscientific.
Kaffir, I fully agree with your comment.
Furthermore, dismissing practices of yoga and meditation without making an attempt to study them and their benefits, as some “rationalists†do, is close-minded behavior at best, not to mention unscientific.
I agree again. Close minded dismissal is just as bad as sweeping claims and mandating compulsory yoga practice in schools.
Let me ask you again: do you support *compulsory* yoga in schools?
@ kk: “I will look forward to an elaborate post rebutting the above article citing *controlled experiments* which conclusively show that yoga should be made *mandatory*.”
I certainly don’t have time for such a post. But I personally believe that just as regular exercise and a healthy diet has beneficial effects on the health of most people, “Yoga” too is beneficial when practised correctly and under supervision. I would therefore support the stance to make it mandatory in government-funded schools – just as physical exercises are.
I spent some more time on your link and it appears that most studies do not dispute the findings but point to methodological inconsistencies or lack of rigour.
Yes, there may be some methodological inadequacies…yes, more study is needed…yes, Yoga is not a miracle cure – and yes, it may not be able to deal with numerous diseases and conditions…but I still have not seen anything that says that the practise of Yoga (done properly and under supervision) actively damages the health of a child. Unless I see evidence (such as “controlled experiments”) of this, I will support the introduction of Yoga in schools.
This discussion should also be seen in the context of lack of government encouragement for research in this area. Sadly, scientific studies of ancient Indian practices do not find favour in a “secular” regime and do not get the kind of funding that is needed to establish their effectiveness (or not).
Readers should also note the comment made by R K Khardekar on the site (brief excerpt below):
Readers may also find this link intreresting: http://www.centerforyogaandhealth.org/Evidence-Based-Yoga.html
To conclude, I have spent far more time on this than I should have! This is not an issue of critical national importance – nor is there any earth-shattering urgency to deal with this right now…I am therefore taking a pause here…but readers should feel free to continue the debate.
Thanks Kaffir and KK for adding some extra spice to the weekend 🙂
kk, based on my experience and knowledge, yes I do think that practice of yoga asanas should be mandatory and taught to students in schools, just like physical exercise classes are taught and are mandatory.
Here’s an interesting article by Dr. McCall that addresses the issues of yoga research and methodology –
http://www.drmccall.com/yoga/west_vs_east_article.html
Here’s an excerpt:
Just as it does no good to tout benefits of yoga without any basis or research, being dogmatic about “peer review” (which is not perfect and there’s a lot of you-scratch-my-back-I’ll-scratch-yours going on in the scientific publishing world) or using it as the be-all-and-end-all for everything, is not beneficial either – both are two sides of the same coin.
Besides, certain modalities like yoga may not strictly fit into the western concept of mind-body, and it is best to develop new methodologies that are suited to the specific modality, and conduct research based on that. According to Dr. McCall’s article, seems like that is happening in India and elsewhere – slowly but surely. Whether the results of these studies will satisfy those who have made scepticism a vice rather than a virtue, well, we’ll likely need some peer-reviewed studies to find that out. 😉 🙂
Furthermore, it’s a waste of time to engage with such people who display cynicism towards yoga but call it scepticism.
Kaffir/Shantanu,
You are entitled to your opinion based on personal experience that yoga should be made mandatory.
being dogmatic about “peer review†(which is not perfect and there’s a lot of you-scratch-my-back-I’ll-scratch-yours going on in the scientific publishing world) or using it as the be-all-and-end-all for everything, is not beneficial either
Kaffir, I dis-agree with your broad-brushed-allegations against peer-review process. I concede that there are frauds, and exchange-of-favors to get papers published, but I trust peer-review much better than trust “personal experiences”. It is my opinion that scientific method, although never perfect, is a better way to investigate a topic than rely on personal anecdotal experiences. May I say probably you had bad experience with peer review (like those guys from Nirmukta probably with Hinduism according to you?). Just kidding.
[I am really really drag the conversation by saying: personal experiences can be used to justify astrology, homeopathy, vastu, tarot reading, UFOs and whatever-else. But this is unfair in my part since it is nothing but indulging in diversion and false equivalence – which doesn’t help us focus on the matter at hand. So I’ll refrain :)].
Again, as I have said before, you are entitled to your opinion about making yoga mandatory. My opinion is different. Let us leave the matter at that.
Shantanu,
nor is there any earth-shattering urgency to deal with this right now…
I agree 100%. Let us start by making toilers mandatory in existing schools than make Yoga compulsory.
1. “I am really really drag the conversation” should be “I am really really tempted to drag the conversation”.
2. Let us start by making toilets mandatory in existing schools than make Yoga compulsory.
Apologies for the typos.
Shantanu,
There are comment systems on blogs which allow the commentators to edit/delete their comments in a certain time window (5 minutes or so). Considering the volume of the comments you get on your blog, it may be helpful!
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I dis-agree with your broad-brushed-allegations against peer-review process.
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I don’t see any broad-brushed-allegations against peer-review process in my comment – my criticism is against dogmatic attitudes towards peer-review process being the be-all and end-all. I’m not dismissive of peer-review process, just careful about accepting results based on it – lots of past and present evidences where money and special interests have incorrectly skewed scientific research and results.
If schools already have mandatory physical exercise classes, then I see no problem with mandatory yoga classes either.
And my personal experience, when backed by similar personal experiences from many others – friends, acquaintances – does have more validity for me when it comes to something like yoga, than what some scientist, who hasn’t done yoga, may have to say about it. It would be stupid and irrational of me to ignore my personal experience with yoga and instead, go with what a scientist published in a peer-reviewed journal. 🙂
Kaffir,
Infact I can even say we may have to make the current *mandatory* exercise *optional* if need be. I don’t think there exists sufficient data from experiment to make it compulsory.
we are going in circles. You and your friends can do all the yoga all your want. nobody is stopping you. invalid point.
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Infact I can even say we may have to make the current *mandatory* exercise *optional* if need be. I don’t think there exists sufficient data from experiment to make it compulsory.
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*shrug*
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we are going in circles. You and your friends can do all the yoga all your want. nobody is stopping you. invalid point.
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I’m not interested in scoring points and I could care less whether you think it’s invalid or not. You asked for my opinion, I gave it to you. If you disagree with it, *shrug*
I think we’re done with this discussion – that’s one point we both can agree on. 🙂
I think we’re done with this discussion – that’s one point we both can agree on.
🙂 Agreed. We need to work towards building those toilets.
Shantanu…
Yoga is a must for every human being and I am all for it being made compulsory in schools for kids.
Yoga and Pranayam are a must.
I used to read offstumped, another good blog.
The comment trolls there have disappeared.
But have since appeared here, inserting *cheers* and smileys and trolling all the while.
Cheerful Chanakyan Cowmanure Chatterjis, if you will.
Bloglines, here i come.
Yoga, Pranayam are beneficial — it is proven.
These things come from a Hindu tradition, so they can be called Hindu.
Those who cannot partake of something which is good owing to its origins, are practising some form of Apartheid — an Apartheid of ideas.
It is Ok if they want to remain in a closed world.
However, they should not prevent others from having access to Yoga and Pranayam. As long as they do not ban or block Yoga and Pranayam in schools, I am OK with it. Even open minded Christians, Muslims, Sikhs etc can use it.
In China the Falung gong are doing yoga. They are persecuted, but because they are anti-communist, not because of yoga. The Chinese know that yoga is good.
If I go by my personal experience Yoga must be mandatory same as compulsory. Also my experience says one don’t need to be expert in Yoga few stretch done with props will also work and it shows result in just 2 weeks. Those kids suffering from sinus, Asthma and many illness, at least 10 minutes of yoga stretch helps.
Liposuction surgery, asthma and sinus medicine is not working and its give temporary relief. Still its there and is prescribed by doctors. WHY? Ban it!
Why should Yoga be mandatory/compulsory when breathing itself is not mandatory/compulsory ?
Plain breathing is known and proven to be essential to life.
Yogic breathing is a further refinement of the same.
Hindus never forced their good stuff on others. Let India be Hindu on this matter, at least!
Your thoughts are as welcome as mine have been !
Having said that, my view/opinion is that state-funded schools should make Yoga classes available, because it is beneficial and is a low-cost preventive form of healthcare, ideal for India.
Just as there is a Hindi teacher, and a P.T/P.E teacher, let there be a Yoga teacher. Let it be part of the regular schedule, but give the children of oh-my-kids-shall-never-do-yoga-even-if-their-life-depends-on-it fanatic parents the right to deny it to their children. So, it is not mandatory to those who do not want to benefit from it.
I hope the the court also gets some PILs regarding various convents/schools *forcing* its students to follow christian prayers and saints and all that strange stuff.
P.S.: I also hope they apply secularism in their descision not trying to please the first right people and government.
Here’s a UK succesful Yoga company which has been bringing yoga to kids around the country and now is going worldwide
Yoga Bugs
http://www.yogabugs.com/home.aspx
Thanks for the link Arjun…very interesting.
I just discovered that Nintendo’s wildly popular Wii-Fit “exercise” game has – in addition to Muscle workouts and Aerobic exercises – a section on a Yoga postures (asanas) too.
While it may or may nor be the remedy for specific conditions, I have come to believe strongly that practised correctly and done regularly, Yoga has long-term health benefits
Yep its in Wi-fit and its very good..Yoga is becoming part of popular modern culture and probably will be repackaged and sent back to India soon..
BBC Report: Scottish children feel benefits of yoga
For Quarry Brae Primary teacher Ms Carr and head teacher Mrs Adam, yoga is bringing a calming influence to the children and helping to get them in a mood to learn.
“Perhaps they haven’t got that support for education at home,” explained Mrs Adam.
“They may not be coming out to school ready and settled, which contributes to children learning.
“Yoga combats those issues because lots of children need movement and breaks in the day when they can get their self-discipline back.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8572385.stm
ACH, excellent news!! Once yoga becomes the norm in the west and gains validity among white people, our pseudo-secular lots too will come around and start recognizing the positives of yoga, since they follow the lead of their masters. 🙂
Placing this link here for the record: How Yoga Could Change The Lives Of Students In One Low-Income Community by
Lydia O’Connor , 13th Mar ’15
Somewhat related:
JNU council rejects proposal on courses in Yoga and Culture even as SOAS in UK now offers an MA in Traditions of Yoga and Meditation
Left-ruled Tripura makes yoga must for students by Biswendu Bhattacharjee, TNN, Dec 31, 2015