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Indeed. What can we do?
Yes indeed. What can we do? This was fine, if this was a statement from Home Minister of some small country. But not from someone who has under his command agencies like IB/RAW.
What is the use of sitting on high moral grounds. Does India not have enough resources to carry out covert ‘Black’ operations like CIA/Mosaad.
If India either lacks resources or the will, it should leave alone its dream to be a ‘Super Power’.
Any such over action will probably be treated as an act of war by a paranoid Pakistan. That’s not something India (or any country for that matter) can afford.
Probably the only direct action against Pakistan can be taken by a coalition of nations – India being one of them. If India goes it alone, the outcome is not worth the paltry satisfaction of killing this guy.
Moreover, I don’t think our agencies have the capability to covertly assassinate someone like that. We’re not terrorists after all.
Moreover, I don’t think our agencies have the capability to covertly assassinate someone like that. We’re not terrorists after all.
There we go again, with the stupid moral equivalence. Where exactly do these self-proclaimed liberals/seculars catch this mental disease, as each one spouts the exact same nonsense without any critical analysis? You buy one (equivalence – all religions are the same, we will be the same as terrorists if we take action), you get the other one (absolute non-violence) for free.
Actually, there is plenty that can be done, but our feckless, corrupt PC can only unleash his police on unarmed sleeping men, women and children in the middle of the night. But pisses in pants at the thought of Dawood I.
First it should not be difficult to close all his business interests in India, including Bollywood. Treat Pak as terrorist state. Do not allow businesses (like Emirites) of nations that host India’s enemies like D.
Beyond the above there are several things that can be done and all of these measures cannot be publicly stated.
B.t.w direct war is not even an option, if Pakis can use plausible deniability, so can India.
Malavika, so true! Let India turn off the water that flows to Pakistan and see if they come around. Or, firing a few missiles in PoK at terrorist camps could work wonders too. What’s the point of developing new missiles and showing them off on Republic Day parade if one can’t even use them to retaliate against an enemy? But with the pusillanimous leaders and avoid-conflict-at-any-cost-even-if-Indian-citizens-keep-getting-killed-in-repeated-terrorist-attacks kind of thinking prevalent among the citizens, it’s a tough sell. The only way this thinking will change is when one of their near-and-dear ones is killed in such a terrorist attack. Unfortunately.
BTW, why did Dawood throw a party for Chidambaram’s son? Did the son marry Dawood’s daughter? And why would a cabinet minister attend such a reception thrown by a known criminal and enemy of India? Not that the ministers in this government have any integrity, but this is really bizarre.
Ah, never mind the last paragraph. The reception was for Dawood’s son’s wedding.
Well, denying water to another country is considered an act of war. Worse, China might consider cutting off the Bhramaputra to us if we do that.
All out war? Not a chance. Not with Pakistan ready to deploy nuclear weapons – they don’t have a “no first use” policy remember? Sorry, but our military is for defensive purposes again a conventional war only.
Besides, Pakistan is imploding because of its policies without India doing anything. Just sitting back and doing nothing is working out just fine right now. Using terrorism as a state policy has its own price after all, and Pakistan is busy paying it. Leave them to their fate.
Well, denying water to another country is considered an act of war.
And training terrorists and sending them to India (e.g. Mumbai terrorist attack) to massacre innocent, defenseless civilians on the streets and in the trains is definitely an act of love. Looks like you’re carrying two different yardsticks there, one of which as a cover for your pusillanimity. Next, you’ll come up with tolerance as a virtue – we should keep tolerating such bomb explosions and terrorist attacks and let Indian citizens die.
As for nuclear weapons, let Pakistan use them first. While India will survive such an attack, the same can’t be said about Pakistan. BTW, shouldn’t Pakistan consider the same – what will happen to them if India uses nuclear weapons?
Oh yes. Two different yardsticks indeed. And why? Because Pakistan in crazy. The same rules don’t apply to India. Am I afraid? Of course. I’d be a fool not to. Pakistan may be willing to accept nuclear annihilation. But we in India are not willing to accept even a third of the damage that we can inflict on them.
Because Pakistan as a nation is very different from India. I’m much bigger than a rabid dog for example. But when I see it charging towards me I don’t stand around and fight. I can kill the dog, but it doesn’t care! I gain nothing from fighting. Running is the best policy.
Dealing with an insane nation means you have to stop trying to be heroes.
Like I said, Pakistan is imploding just fine without us. What more do you want?
Because Pakistan as a nation is very different from India. I’m much bigger than a rabid dog for example. But when I see it charging towards me I don’t stand around and fight. I can kill the dog, but it doesn’t care!
You’re using a very stupid analogy. If (i) a rabid dog charges towards you, (ii) you can kill it, and (iii) the dog doesn’t care, why wouldn’t you kill it instead of running away? You run away today and the rabid dog will be there tomorrow to torment you, or your wife, or your parents who are old and can’t outrun the rabid dog. How many times will you run away? What if you run, trip and fall down and the rabid dog bites you? Wouldn’t it have been much easier to kill it in the first place, so that no one has to live like cowards, in fear of the rabid dog? BTW, rabid dogs are shot to death – that’s the best and easiest way to solve that problem.
Moral of the story: come up with a better and more suitable analogy next time, instead of this stupid one.
And just because the dog is rabid and crazy, that’s no reason for you to behave in the same crazy manner, instead of taking the common sense approach of tackling the rabid dog with a gun or a stick.
Oh yes. Two different yardsticks indeed.
No, your two different yardsticks were for what constitutes a war. You think that stopping water from flowing into Pakistan would be an act of war, but sending terrorists to kill innocents is not an act of war. Don’t try to act smart and disingenuously change the discussion. What’s obvious is that you don’t care for the lives of innocent Indians lost in regular terrorist attacks and bomb blasts, to which there’s no end in sight. Pretty soon we’ll run out of dates of the year to hold a memorial. You’re more concerned with what Pakistan will think if we cut off their water supply. I’m glad that the soldiers guarding our borders don’t think like you do and are not cowards like you are, otherwise we’d all be speaking Chinese or Urdu by now. BTW, you might be mistaken about one thing – being a coward is not an admirable quality and neither does it earn anyone’s respect.
So it seems like my rabid dog analogy is pretty good after all. I disagree about standing and fighting. You’ll probably get bitten at least once and die of rabies – it’s not worth it. Running away is the smartest possible thing to do. Eventually the sick dog will die of its own and you can live to enjoy another day.
It’s the government’s job to kill rabid dogs – not mine. But since we don’t have a “world” government which can punish Pakistan, best to just leave it alone and let it die the way a rabid dog dies eventually because of it’s sickness.
Of course sending terrorists to kill innocents is an act of war. But it’s far better to take it on the chin rather than start a war that can kill hundreds of thousands of people. Our diplomatic efforts have done pretty well so far. Pakistan is isolated from the world and plunged into chaos. It couldn’t be worse for them. They would actually welcome a war with India right now to distract them from their internal woes – nothing like a bit of jingoistic patriotism to unify a country eh?
Bhagwad: There is spectrum/range of possibilities to deal with Pakistan ranging from a mild verbal protest to all out war.
Pl consider where we are on that spectrum…and don’t assume we have no room to maneouvre.
I am reproducing the words of B Raman:
the capability to cause “a divided Pakistan, a bleeding Pakistan, a Pakistan ever on the verge of collapse without actually collapsing—-that should be our objective till it stops using terrorism against India.â€
And in case you missed it, here’s A strategic response to terror – “Balkanization†of Pakistan?
Oh, and I just picked this up: Bumpy road of Indo-Pak trade
BJP, the problem with people like you is that you love the smell of your own intellectual farts – no matter how noisome it is – and delude yourself that it is perfume manufactured by Dior, and display what’s known as intellectual dishonesty. Unfortunately, I have better use of my time, but you can continue arguing – just for the sake of argument – that your analogy is actually valid and brilliant, when it is anything but.
Kaffir, it’s hardly surprising that you’re arguments have devolved into insults. They always do. I leave the implications of this to the readers of the comments and to Shantanu to decide whether or not to warn you not to abuse people on his blog.
BJP, before you get into online discussions or arguments with others, learn to discern the crucial difference between ‘criticizing an action’ and ‘criticizing a person,’ and not conflate the two.
And stop being such a cry-baby when the blatant intellectual dishonesty in your comments/arguments is pointed out. Now, instead, if I’d written that “You are a cry-baby,” that would be a good example of ad hominem (whether that’s an insult or not is a subjective issue) and you would be correct in approaching Shantanu. Now go write a post on your blog telling others how a fascist/ Hindutva/ right-winger abused you in such a mean manner.
Kaffir, it seems you recognize your own behavior only too well for what it is. An ad hominem argument occurs when you talk about the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.
Just read your comment and discern how you talk about me instead of what I say. Don’t make this an ego issue – instead try and learn how to be a better person online.
BJP, even after I pointed it out, it seems that you are still deluded about your behavior and your arguments, and fail to see them for what they are. No surprise there, since that’s a very common trait of so-called liberals/seculars. Furthermore, please sharpen your reading & comprehension skills so that you don’t come across as an idiot online. And, be humble – as I’ve mentioned before, empty that overflowing cup of yours before you come here, and learn from what Shantanu writes in his posts, instead of being pompous and know-it-all.
BJP, hats off to you for your perceverence. You are trying to (re)convert those who preach only to the converted.
@Bagh.Ja.Park, Invariably it is your first comment that lets you down.
“Any such over action will probably be treated as an act of war by a paranoid Pakistan.”
Why? Zero evidence to back this up. 9th standard stuff.
“Probably the only direct action against Pakistan can be taken by a coalition of nations – India being one of them.”
Why? zero reasoning required to make such statements. any 8th standard kid can say this.
“If India goes it alone, the outcome is not worth the paltry satisfaction of killing this guy.”
why? against, pure 7th standard conjecture unless substantiated.
“Moreover, I don’t think our agencies have the capability to covertly assassinate someone like that. We’re
not terrorists after all.”
1. why? zero reasons as usual. 6th grade logic.
2. this is a terrible definition of a terrorist. 5th grade.
so all that you have demonstrated so far is that u can write in English at a fifth grade level and that in itself is sufficient to provide *reasonable* arguments toward Indo-Pak problems ???
And still u wonder why u invite so much laughter and derision. ROFL.
@ BJP, Prakash,
Bland assertions without any facts can be derisively dismissed without any facts/discussions.
@Kaffir
Did KArtik Chidambaram really attend Dawood’s Party?
Main reason India’s hands are tied because Congress leaders are in bed with D company traitors. Hasan Ali is well connected with Congress big wigs including Ahmed Patel, Sonia’s personal secretary. I am sure they have more dirt about Congress bigwigs up their sleeve.
If Pakis can send terrorists with plausible deniablility, India can reduce water flowing to Pakis with deniability too. Just recently India got a verdict in its favor.
And Pak has far more internal Chasms than India.
@Malavika,
You don’t call your outrageous claims “bland assertions?” Perhaps you should expect people to derisively dismiss them.
You really think if the BJP was in power, they would do anything different with Pakistan? Let’s face facts. We can’t do anything for the same reason even the US can’t do anything. Pakistan is a nuclear power and we all have to live with its activities till it implodes.
You are trying to (re)convert those who preach only to the converted.
Prakash, what is this conversion business? Where does this concept of “conversion” come from? What mischief and violence has this conversion business caused historically? Perhaps you need to do some research and think about such ideas and concepts before consciously using them.
BTW, why do you feel the compulsion to come here and sanctimoniously try to “convert” others? So condescending of you. Does Shantanu or I go to your blog or leftist/Marxist/secular blogs and try to “convert” others? No. Then why do you feel so intolerant of the ideas presented and discussed here, and leave comments that clearly show that your minds are totally closed? Do the ideas presented on this blog threaten you?
Do the ideas presented on this blog threaten you?
Good question. I don’t think this blog has any meaningful ‘ideas presented’. There is a lot of moral discourse and there is persistent criticism of one political party and all of English media. Not much of it will go down as ideas whichever way you look at it.
As to why I post/ed here. I never wanted to. Once in a few weeks, I used to drop an email to Shantanu to indicate my position. He forced me to post online. Recently, I stopped posting after a couple of comments were deleted.
If I agree with something, I usually don’t like to post a comment just to say ‘I agree’. I will continue to post once in a few months just to check the openness of the forum.
Finally, here is a genuine idea…
British media and British society have set procedure for respecting its soldiers and reminding everyone of soldier’s sacrifice. Indian media and Indian society lacks such formal procedures. Most BBC news bulletins have time reserved for naming martyred soldiers. There is designated place for military funeral repatriations and throughout the year, there are events that remind people of the sacrifices of the soldiers.
After noticing Shantanu’s interest in saluting Indian heroes, I had suggested to him that making Indian media reserve time for a similar salutation will be a good idea.. God knows what happened to that idea later…
(Please don’t ask me why I haven’t done anything about it. That is not the way the game of ideas is played. Those who can do should do. Those who can suggest ideas should suggest).
That ends my long answer to the question about ideas, a response triggered more by the word ‘ideas’ than by anything else.
@BJP,
“Let’s face facts. We can’t do anything for the same reason even the US can’t do anything. Pakistan is a nuclear power and we all have to live with its activities till it implodes.”
tsk, tsk you tender sensibilities for Pak at the expense of Indian life is well noted.
However you did not answer, why India cannot do the following from my earlier post:
First it should not be difficult to close all his business interests in India, including Bollywood. Treat Pak as terrorist state. Do not allow businesses (like Emirites) of nations that host India’s enemies like D.
India can do the above and more to speed up the process of PAk imploding.
Prakash, would you like to answer the questions I asked in the first paragraph, regarding your use of the words “(re)convert” and “reconverted”? You avoided answering those questions.
And what’s so wrong with “preaching to the converted”? The blog is a confluence of those who share similar interests and goals, and have broader agreement on the methods to achieve those goals. How is that the same as “preaching to the converted”?
BTW, if you think that the criticisms of Congress Party are false or invalid, feel free to point out the flaws in those criticisms – but please don’t do that in an intellectually dishonest manner. Same goes for the criticism of English Language Media and their biases/prejudices. Are you taking those criticisms personally? Are you a Congress supporter/voter/member?
And if you don’t find the ideas presented here meaningful to you and come here with a closed mind, wouldn’t it be best to spend your time in more meaningful and more constructive pursuits with those who do share your interests? What exactly do you achieve by telling people here that you don’t find the ideas meaningful, when it’s quite clear that many think differently than you do, and continue to visit this blog and comment here? Are you feeling jealous? Do you think that everyone has to think exactly like you do and find the exact same ideas meaningful as you do? These are not rhetorical questions – I’m asking them in good faith.
The world is quite big and offers much, so here’s a suggestion: find something meaningful and engage with it instead of being sanctimonious to others on a blog where you find the ideas meaningless. You might have heard of the term laissez-faire.
From Why does India dither on bringing Dawood to justice? by S Balakrishnan, Friday, Aug 2, 2013:
Early this week, the Delhi police filed a charge sheet that stated Dawood Ibrahim masterminded the IPL match-fixing scam. This seems a civil effort on the part of the Delhi police when compared to the two attempts that the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW) made on his life in 1994. Though the killing mission had been worked to the minutest detail, they were aborted at the last minute as the highest police authorities balked at it.
The first plan was to send a team of highly-trained assassins to Karachi where Dawood lives in a palatial house in upmarket Clifton area close to the beach. A team of four assassins was provided extensive training in the use of sophisticated arms and explosives and also briefed about the geography of the Clifton neighbourhood. A getaway plan was also worked out.
The government gave preliminary approval for the plan following which the hit squad was flown to Kathmandu, given fake Nepalese passports and despatched to Karachi. The arms and ammunition were sent across to a safe house in Karachi by using the route used by smugglers. The area was closely recced. Even as the assassins, who were all hardcore members of the Chhota Rajan gang, were making last-minute preparations to go for the kill, the central government, led by the then Prime Minister P V Narasimha Rao, asked that the plan be put on hold.
“We had confirmation that Dawood was in his house at that time. We even had details of the layout of his plush house and its vulnerable points. We were completely taken aback when the Centre asked us to pull out and that too at the last moment. We had a zero-failure plan in place and we would have definitely eliminated Dawood. Till today, it is a mystery why the final approval was not given to us,’’ a senior intelligence official observed.
….
R&AW had even worked out another plan to force the landing of the aircraft carrying Dawood in Mumbai.
Sleuths of R&AW had been keeping a close watch on the movements of Dawood. He used to fly to Jeddah, Singapore and other destinations in a special aircraft accompanied by his handlers in the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan. “We planned to send Indian Air Force jets to escort Dawood’s aircraft once it left Pakistani airspace and then force it to land in Mumbai. This was riskier than the earlier plan, but we were confident of pulling it through. However, once again the government developed cold feet,†the official stated…
Placing this link here for the record:
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/353581/dawood-ibrahim-pak-shinde.html
“We are pressing the Pakistan government on this issue. We suspect that Dawood Ibrahim is in Pakistan. He should be handed over to India,†Shinde told the Lok Sabha on Tuesday.