Open Thread on a midnight drama and Live Chat @ 830pm tonight

Will the parties supporting the congress withdraw support at the centre or are they also involved in black money scandals?

“Is his house in order and can he give an affidavit stating that the monies in his trust has no black money? If he can’t do so then he should just shut up”

funny stuff!!

Hi Shantanu,

The Gen Deyer tweet was from Shekhar Kapoor you have by mistake mentioned it from Shekhar Gupta.

Thanks

@Ashwin Gandhiparivarkumarsevak

“The so called sanyasi’s trust has amassed such huge assets, where did the monies come from? Is his house in order and can he give an affidavit stating that the monies in his trust has no black money? If he can’t do so then he should just shut up.”

Sanyasi does not mean bhikhari. Get your facts straight. As to where the monies came from I would urge you to return to planet earth. Then go to a nearby store and pay some hard cash for one of his products, or books or CDs or whatever. Multiply the amount paid by many crores, subtract Rs. 0.00 for any “black” money involved in the transaction and finally just shut up.

“As for the issues on graft and corruption, these are more macro issues which have affected India and Indians at every levels. It is silly to say just by holding a fast session the issues can be eradicated.”

Then why did your Congi Sarkar launch a full-scale assault of hundreds of storm-troopers on that one empty stomach? The point was not to eradicate as much as to highlight the issue in the minds of the people. That objective has been met, and that too quite spectacularly.

“If Baba Ramdev was so serious, why should he not go on a campaign preachcing good behavior and principles to next generation such that the coming generation can be devoid of the mindset which makes people to get corrupted. Without changing the mindset and ethos of life, we shall not be able to eradicate the corruption and graft.”

What do you think he has been preaching in town after town and city after city throughout India? His is the only approach that has been bottom up. Anna Hazare and the circus around him did no such thing, and you yourself have probably done far less, and yet you can only point fingers at Ramdev. FYI, the whole event at the Ramlila Maidan was the bottom trying to reform the top. Please… think for a moment before you utter any further nonsense.

Furthermore, your implied assumption that a bottom-up approach is the only way to go is thoroughly flawed. A top-down approach is equally necessary. There needs to be in power a leadership that rewards integrity and not blind loyalty while indulging in massive corruption on an astronomical scale. That explains why intervention in political process is absolutely a must. Otherwise these demonic rakshasas are going to use their state power to squelch any and every honest and patriotic person in India. Again, the atrocities at Ramlila came from the top and not the bottom

“Further, Baba’s press conference on alleged attrocities against the sathyagrahis is full of looholes, how can Baba Ramdev know what happened when he fled the scene (can be seen in the NDTV clipping) and went on to say he can the attrocities?”

Fled the scene? You seem to have a wonderful talent for artful oversimplification and fibbing. You can also see from all the reports that he spent a whole lot of time IN the ground evading arrest. He also tried to calm down his supporters when they started to react to the police brutality. The Khakhi sepoys of your Congi Sarkar only wanted an excuse to take the violence to the next level. Finally Ramdev seems to have surrendered in order to avoid any further escalation that might have resulted in bloodshed of the families present there and then he was apprehended by the police and taken away. Where is your “fled the scene”?

Also, please convey my gratitude to your Congi masters. Their dictatorial brutality has only inspired many more to take to Ramdev’s war-path.

The long comments here remind me of CPM tactics to deny votes to genuine voters (get people to stand in queues and make officials waste time on checking lists etc.).

What is relevant just now is whether there was any justification for the barbatic crackdown at night and whether those at the site were given warning and sufficient time to disperse.

Unfortunately, even Advani could not stick to the point when asked to comment. He was asked irrelevant questions and he gave he spend time in irrelevant answers. Shame on him.

Scores of people have suffered for no fault of theirs. This is not the time to discuss philosophy. The only important issue is the freedom and the safety of common Indians.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS shouted the Red Queen

Who was behind the atrocity at Ramlila Maidan?

Her Highness and the heir apparent express their royal displeasure at Govt of India’s conciliatory approach

“AT LEAST twice in the last five days, Congress President Sonia Gandhi has expressed strong disapproval of the government’s overtures to yoga guru Ramdev.”

Gravedigger Singh, Her Majesty’s voice and lord protector of the realm for the boy king, announces makes a public proclamation of impending punishment of errant Hindu insect

“If the Congress was afraid of Ramdev, the party would have put him behind bars”

“The so called sanyasi’s trust has amassed such huge assets, where did the monies come from? Is his house in order and can he give an affidavit stating that the monies in his trust has no black money? If he can’t do so then he should just shut up.”

Sanyasi does not mean bhikhari. Get your facts straight. As to where the monies came from I would urge you to return to planet earth. Then go to a nearby store and pay some hard cash for one of his products, or books or CDs or whatever. Multiply the amount paid by many crores, subtract Rs. 0.00 for any “black” money involved in the transaction and finally just shut up.

“As for the issues on graft and corruption, these are more macro issues which have affected India and Indians at every levels. It is silly to say just by holding a fast session the issues can be eradicated.”

Then why did your Congi Sarkar launch a full-scale assault of hundreds of storm-troopers on that one empty stomach? The point was not to eradicate as much as to highlight the issue in the minds of the people. That objective has been met, and that too quite spectacularly.

“If Baba Ramdev was so serious, why should he not go on a campaign preachcing good behavior and principles to next generation such that the coming generation can be devoid of the mindset which makes people to get corrupted. Without changing the mindset and ethos of life, we shall not be able to eradicate the corruption and graft.”

What do you think he has been preaching in town after town and city after city throughout India? His is the only approach that has been bottom up. Anna Hazare and the circus around him did no such thing, and you yourself have probably done far less, and yet you can only point fingers at Ramdev. FYI, the whole event at the Ramlila Maidan was the bottom trying to reform the top. Please… think for a moment before you utter any further nonsense.

Furthermore, your implied assumption that a bottom-up approach is the only way to go is thoroughly flawed. A top-down approach is equally necessary. There needs to be in power a leadership that rewards integrity and not blind loyalty while indulging in massive corruption on an astronomical scale. That explains why intervention in political process is absolutely a must. Otherwise these demonic rakshasas are going to use their state power to squelch any and every honest and patriotic person in India. Again, the atrocities at Ramlila came from the top and not the bottom

“Further, Baba’s press conference on alleged attrocities against the sathyagrahis is full of looholes, how can Baba Ramdev know what happened when he fled the scene (can be seen in the NDTV clipping) and went on to say he can the attrocities?”

Fled the scene? You seem to have a wonderful talent for artful oversimplification and fibbing. You can also see from all the reports that he spent a whole lot of time IN the ground evading arrest. He also tried to calm down his supporters when they started to react to the police brutality. The Khakhi sepoys of your Congi Sarkar only wanted an excuse to take the violence to the next level. Finally Ramdev seems to have surrendered in order to avoid any further escalation that might have resulted in bloodshed of the families present there and then he was apprehended by the police and taken away. Where is your “fled the scene”?

Also, please convey my gratitude to your Congi masters. Their dictatorial brutality has only inspired many more to take to Ramdev’s war-path.

Ramdev CAN BRING DOWN SONIA PARIVAR TODAY if he does the following:

1) Invite all non-Congress parties to form a national government to implement his anti-corruption agenda.

2) Invite all those Congress MPs who still have some integrity left to join this new government by withdrawing support to Cong(I)

3) Promise to have this new government focused primarily on his anti-corruption agenda, LEAVING ASIDE ALL CASTE AND RELIGION BASED ISSUES.

A citizen of India cannot be banned from Delhi, even if he makes unreasonable statements. Aren’t there a thousand rambling mad men walking the streets of Delhi as it is ?

The Baba should take the current Government of India to court as his fundamental rights to freedom of movement are being denied. Let the Courts rule on this all important matter while the fight against black money goes forward.

Black money has a lot of power to move mountains and that power is now working. It will try to bite anyone who raises their voice against it. Baba Ramdev just happened to be one of the strongest voices recently.

Supporters of black money include politicians of various hues and colours, hawala businessmen, even professionals like lawyers (including lawyer politicians), holders of benami companies etc. Baba Ramdev has awakened their wrath and now you can see how they are acting through the Government, through the Police and so on. It is a difficult phase we are entering.

@Anonymous “Supporters of black money include politicians of various hues and colours, hawala businessmen, even professionals like lawyers (including lawyer politicians), holders of benami companies etc.”

I suspect that we can add to that list actors like Shah Rukh Khan ect. who have come out in opposition to Ramdev’s campaign.

“As for the issues on graft and corruption, these are more macro issues which have affected India and Indians at every levels. It is silly to say just by holding a fast session the issues can be eradicated.”

Again either you are moorkha or dhoortha

For past 5 years Ramdev has been speaking on the issue of corruption, black money, and poor state of the nation. He has been working on various fronts to fix and preach fix it.

Since past over 2 years he has met Manmohan Singh, Rahul Gandhi, to make them move on this issue.

For past one year he went more serious and focussed on this.
For 9 months, after giving so much time to the gov, he did rallies, signature campaigns, bharat swabhiman yatra, and even then he submitted letters of issues and suggestions.

BUT there were no results from the gov – so of the various measures he could take, one was ‘anshan’/fasting/satyagraha.

He gave lots and lots of time to gov, and its not the right time to launch political party, so i guess he moved to the possible next step of fasting against corruption.

“If Baba Ramdev was so serious, why should he not go on a campaign preachcing good behavior and principles to next generation such that the coming generation can be devoid of the mindset which makes people to get corrupted. Without changing the mindset and ethos of life, we shall not be able to eradicate the corruption and graft.”

Once again sorry to say you are a moorkha or dhoortha.

He has been doing the preaching good health, good behavior, good principles, good values…. to all ages… since past more than 5 years.

Proof:
go watch 44 CDs on various ailments;
go watch Rashtra Dharma CD that was released first about 5 years ago;
go listen to Rajiv Dixits 100 hours of speech he released;
go read the books he has got published;
go read the books he was written himself – commentary on gita, yog darsha, etc
go find and watch the veda, upanishad, darshan, sanskaar sanskriti programs that were run for over 1 year from July 2007

Friends : 6 June 2011

The mafia GOI has spoken at last. Its core constituents, obviously, were so rattled by the Ramdev movement that they forced their naukar – chakars to behave in the only way they can – as goondas and thugs.

Who are the beneficiaries of the decision to try and crush the movement ? Who gains if the anti – corruption wave is stopped or derailed ?

As Holmes told the good doctor Watson, try and spot the truly happy ones in a crime scene.

In our tragic national scenario, the characters who are laughing all the way to the bank are the following :

1. The mafia – controlled netas and babus who thought their livelihood (of loot and graft) was being taken away.

2. The mullahs, whose D-company and West Asian links were about to be severed.

3. The padres, whose lifelines from the Vatican and the American fundamantalist loonies, were being exposed

4. The assorted NGO – jholawallah fellows, who too feared disclosure and unemployment (and no furrin trips).

5. Th baniya – businessmen combine, whose tax-evasion and fraud were about to be choked off.

6. The international bankers criminals in various tax – havens, whose bottom lines were about to be blown off.

7. Assorted governments in various parts of the globe that saw the spectre of a resurgent India.

These are the basic and broad groups. Please feel free to suggest any that I may have overlooked.

But do it seriously. No finger to the keyboard mania please. The backdrop today is far too sombre to permit frivolousness and attempts to play to the gallery.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

Its a repeat of 1977 emergency. Time to overthrow the political mechanism.

The spring revolution of northern africa has truely arrived in India.

Imagine what will happen once the communal violence bill is in effect. A foretaste of congress’ anti-Hindu witch hunts:

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ws050611mar.asp

“The police have registered a case of rioting against Ramdev.”

Has two hundred and fifty years of British rule introduced a strand of oppression in the DNA of us Indians or do we just blame the British for the oppression that we perpetrate and perpetuate on ourselves? fifty thousand sleeping men women and children posed a security hazard …. for whom?? The Government says that the permission was sought for a yoga camp and that too for five thousand people and what was happening was a protest. A protest at 1 am??? This man has been shouting from rooftops for over a month that he would go on a fast unto death from the 4th of June to pressurise the Government to bring back the black money stashed abroad and now the Police, the mistress of the establishment, would, have us believe that Ramdev and his followers were the ones who were on the wrong side of the law. If that be so, then the victims of Jallian Wala Bagh were on the wrong side of the law too. The absence of the loss of lives cannot be a distinguishing factor between the Jallianwala Bagh massacare and what happened at the Ramlila grounds early today morning. The mindset behind the two incidents was one and the same. What was slaughtered was the freedom of speech and expression. This indeed has been the darkest hour for our so called democracy. Its a sham. It just doesnt exist. Personally I had no intentions of expressing solidarity for a movement which was sharing the same platform with the RSS though Ramdev himself may not have personally subscribed to the views of the RSS. But yes!!! he certainly had the right to express his views and gather support for the same within the four corners of the law. What was shocking was the cold indifference of the State in falling upon those who were in deep slumber without pausing to think for a moment as to where these men women and children (most of them from villages) would go from there at that hour after the venue and all the infrastructure was disrupted. If this isnt hitting the rock bottom of the abyss of depravity then what is?

@Malavika,
Human rights and mombattiwalas will speak only if its NOTE-worthy. If they speak for minority the vote-bank politicians will reward them. And if they speak in favor of Hindus, & especially against Congress, then there would be IT/ED raids on their ill-gotten money stashed houses/offices.
Mombattiwalas did not speak for Sadhvi’s rights, but Digvijay Singh openly batted for rights of Osama Bin Laden.

This is open conspiracy against Hindus/Nationalists.
In past I never openly said this because I was in double mind. But now its all clear in the purview of proposed Communal Violence Bill. I’ve my doubts cleared and thanks to Sonia Gandhi, Digvijay Singh, PC, Rahul Gandhi and Manmohan Singh for the help.

Jai Bharat!

It is an absolute disgrace that in the land of the Indians, a well meaning Indian Hindu Baba has been subjected to such inhuman treatment. The Pope or his Bishops would never have been treated like this in Italy or Europe.
As for those loyal supporters sleeping at 1am in the Lamlila Maidan, what is their crime? And yes where are those who talk of freedom of speech and human rights? Did these women and children have no human rights, or even Indian rights? It is self evident that Indians in general have fewer human rights than others in the world.The ruthlessness that has been visible is a reflection of the anti Indian/Hindu feeling in the GOI.
KS DS AS PM are dispicable traitors to the Indian cause. Why does Shah Rukh Khan and Shabani Azmi feel they need to oppose the Swamiji?
As for SG and her ilk they were always more than anti-sympathisers.
Itne log abhi bhi chup baithe hain. It’s true that one does not want anarchy or a law and order problem, but by sending Swamiji to Haridwar they must not be allowed to think they will quell this movement. Come on Indians- stop watching so much cricket and Bakwaas Bollywood and make a real difference to the nation.

SRK says he wont suport Baba because Baba has a agenda. Who in this world does not have agenda?

I am thinking India does not deserve to be one country any more. No Xtian or Muslim groups or individuals come in support of Baba Ramdev. No one realizes he is fighting for the country not for any particular religion. Muslims feel compelled to oppose anythign that does not have Congress in it. Xtian and Muslim groups never support anyone outside their group. Due to the insecure situation government has created for Hindus by providing quotas, Hindus feel insecure and fight amongts each other on quotas… Except for a fringe 2% no one cares for the country.

What is the need for this country to be held together… 15% of indian population (muslims) will support Congress whatever happens… 10% of Xtian populations will vote based on their church’s advise (which is vote for congress), another 25% will not vote, remaining 50% will vote to parties that promises them quotas… So, please someone tell me where is hope for this country???

http://indiasreport.com/magazine/data/the-baba-ramdev-factor-and-the-crisis-of-ideas/

Important to keep these issues in mind about Baba Ramdev and not go overboard with “nationalism”, “Hindu-ism” etc.

Hi All,

Have you listen/seen what RJD president Lallu Yadav said about Ramdev ji. He said “Baba ji ko sirf yoga karna chahiye, rajniti nahi. Agar Govt ne unki maange maan bhi li, to hum log us bill ko Sansad me pass nahi hone denge. Baba Ambedkar ji ne jo savidhaan banaya hi use hum badalne nahi denge”

But Lallu Yadav forgot that his party has only 2 seats in Lok Sabha, and also not in state govt.

@patriot – we are not saying fast unto death is the correct thing to do. but, we are merely seeing the difference in treatment meted out to different issues. Tamilnadu CM also undertook fast unto death, but he was not arrested for creating law and order problem. anna hazare was not arrested as well… medha patkar went on fast for 9 days recently, she was not arrested as well. Mr. amir khan went on fast some 5 years back along with medha patkar, he was not arrested. so, why baba ramdev? That too using a RAF on people sleeping at the middle of the night? why, were they afraid TV cameras would capture the ugly face of the government? Oh my friend, you are calling satyagraha coercive unconstitutional tool.. but the GOP survives on the legacy left behind by MK Ganddhi that was master of this tool… I suggest you address this part of Mahatma Gandhi to appropriate authorities and ask them to re-consider 02 Oct as a normal working day. fasts are made to capture attention. If Maoists do as you suggest, there will be solution. Remember, everyone cannot get obsolutely everuthign they ask for, but they would get get a reasonable solution. This country still believes by peaceful means you could achieve something. But, at this rate, that belief is fading away fast.

“Why should any government negotiate with any party that breaks the law to start with? ”

Wtf is Gobermand Interoloookooters doing in CASHmeere then???

@ Sandeep:

“Wtf is Gobermand Interoloookooters doing in CASHmeere then???”

I thought that the current bunch was also a self-important, nearly self-selected bunch of social/civil activists.

Who is the govt interlocuting with?

@patriot – we are only discussing only the coerciveness of a tool called fasting…. why should i read up golibar case. What’s your answer on MK Gandhi using this tool? You missed the drama on Mu Ka because he called off after 6 hours.

Osho also has said the coerciveness of fasting… But that is from a great ethical stand point. If government is questioning the coerciveness of fasting from that ethical stand point, there would be no question of black money if they worked from that high ethical stand point. You are pointing out people’s mistakes involved in fasting.. what are you going to call the people that refuse to bring the astronomical amount of money back to the country. There is no perfection in action. Even when you give alms to needy, you are putting yourself in a superior position due the action. For the greater good we can tolerate Baba Ramdev’s tactics of fasting. I rest my case here.

@ born:

“@patriot – what are you out of your mind? Let me ask you this. Manmohan promised to bring the black money back on 100 days time if he got re-elected. It has been two years. ”

Excellent question – so, why should this not be the election strategy of the opposition parties? Instead of unconstitutional bargaining or leverage? Why has Bharat Swabhiman backtracked from becoming a political party and from fighting elections? That is the right way to do it. I would have no issues if Ramdev is constitutionally elected as the PM of India through an electoral process, even though he does not know the E of economics or the P of Policy – but,that is fine. Go the people, and get their mandate.

And, before you ask, I think the Congress sowed this particular wind, and it is reaping the hurricane of civil activism with its NAC – the National Advisory Council is completely and entirely unconstitutional. And, that has been the reason that it has had to talk to people like Hazare and Patkar on unconstitutional grounds. Hopefully, it now closes the Pandora’s box and disbands the NAC immediately.

Cheers

@patriot:

“But, I have a more fundamental question for all you Ramdev-bhakts and Anna Hazare-bhakts: Isn’t a fast unto death a form of blackmail, a coercive, unconstitutional tool against the elected government of the day?”

The main issue is how to FORCE (note the use of the word) the most corrupt government in the history of humanity to give up or at least significantly reduce corruption. So every form of protest that is designed to put pressure on the government to act could be construed as “blackmail” or “coercive”. As for the fast unto death being unconstitutional you probably mean that it is “illegal”. But that does not necessarily make it wrong. For example it might be illegal for citizens to take up arms against a dictatorship but it would be the right thing to do at the same time. Extreme circumstances often call for extreme measures. For example many Indian soldiers have gone on suicide missions for the sake of the nation. Ramdev is no different and deserves nothing less than your complete support. Also, don’t worry. That will not make you a bhakt. So stop calling others that.

“Why should any government negotiate with any party that breaks the law to start with? Wouldn’t all of you howl with fury if someone suggests that the government negotiate with the Maoists, even if they do not surrender their arms and eschew violence first?”

Negotiations are a part of EVERY conflict. Maoists are a hate India group fueled by and dedicated to extra-territorial interests that want to see the end of the nation. Whether they talk or shoot or fast unto death does not make a jot of difference. There is no comparison between Maoists and Ramdev.

“Let us take another example: if a Maoist leader were to renounce violence completely, and instead go on a fast unto death in support of his/her demands, which say, include that all mineral rights belong only to the natural residents of the area, would you support this cause, too? After all, we know what atrocities have been visited on the tribals in the name of development.”

It is illogical and absurd that anybody here is simply supporting “fasting unto death”. As per this illogical thinking if tomorrow Sonia and MMS also go on an indefinite fast to SUPPORT their freedom to suck the nation dry of all its money, then everyone here would be supporting them.

@ G –

“It is illogical and absurd that anybody here is simply supporting “fasting unto death”. As per this illogical thinking if tomorrow Sonia and MMS also go on an indefinite fast to SUPPORT their freedom to suck the nation dry of all its money, then everyone here would be supporting them.”

Excellent – you bring out the coercive nature of the fasts-unto-death, even better than I did. So, I do not need to argue with you on this.

Moving on to your other points:

“The main issue is how to FORCE (note the use of the word) the most corrupt government in the history of humanity to give up or at least significantly reduce corruption. ………… For example it might be illegal for citizens to take up arms against a dictatorship but it would be the right thing to do at the same time.”

Are you claiming that India is a dictatorship, and that we are now in an environment where anything goes? That is a very dangerous argument to make.

I asked this in another post – why can not an ineffective, corrupt and obstructive government be tackled electorally? Why has the Bharat Swabhiman backtracked on electoral politics and instead decided to take up blackmail?

Are our electoral systems broken? The current results in Bengal and Tamil Nadu, and earlier in Bihar would argue the reverse, but I would like to understand from you why you think that this matter can not be resolved electorally?

“Negotiations are a part of EVERY conflict. Maoists are a hate India group fueled by and dedicated to extra-territorial interests that want to see the end of the nation. Whether they talk or shoot or fast unto death does not make a jot of difference. There is no comparison between Maoists and Ramdev.”

Interesting – but, you dodged the question – would you agree and/or support the govt of the day negotiating with the Maoists?

And, have you/your group thought through this whole process of unconstitutional protest and leverage to its logical endgame? I would urge you to do so. If you shame Parliament and consign it to the dustbin, then eventually you will only get either anarchy or a police state – take your pick.

Cheers

@ born –

“From what I see, Baba’s imperfection is acceptable to me and to all his followers. There is no need to look at his followers with disdain. They can hold their head high in bringing this stinking black money issue to the forefront of national newspapers.”

You mistake me – I do not like on you and your group with disdain – I look with dismay and frustration and fear.

Dismay and frustration because I see so much energy, activism and good will in your movement, but your route/your path is wrong – there are no short cuts to reforming India. An India that has been looted and corrupted over a period of 63 years can not be reformed in the twinkling of an eye, it needs serious, well thought out policy actions – it needs serious leaders willing to go through the grind of elections and policy making and implementation. There is no magic wand. India had been lacking this energy, this willingness of the youth, of the middle classes for so many decades that it wallowed in corruption and mediocrity – now that we have the energy, we are going to squander it by trying to take a short cut. That is the cause of my angst.

And fear, because I think you do not understand the damage that you are doing to the Indian constitution – it is a piece of paper but it is the framework that holds this great nation together. Trample on it today, and you will have no nation tomorrow.

Thanks, and wish you all the best.

Cheers

@ born –

“You dont have a single word against people that loot other people’s wealth, but waste so much time on criticizing a man that chose fast unto death???? (and of course did not die in the process, was not even allowed to fast for 48 hours) Where are your priorities…. Why dont you write 1,000 words about the corrupt government by using your eloquent language skills. ”

Please visit http://www.freedomteam.in – where we have spent over 1000’s of man-years on policies and strategies on how we could reform India. We need 500 leaders, to take India to its rightful heights. Not one, or two or five or ten. Please join us. Please get all your civil activist friends to spend time on the website and then join us, if they think that Politics is their calling.

“You are asking “Why are his accounts secret and not transparently available?” – So, now the cat comes out of the bag. Your main agenda is the money Baba has. Let government take its time and send a income-tax audit on his wealth. He has paid taxes on his wealth…”

No, just that a person taking the high moral ground needs to be above reproach himself. (Caesar’s wife). Why should I care about his money? He has earned it, it is his. And, why should it need an IT raid for him to be pro-active about his assets? I have never understood why his followers find this to be so obtuse. Never mind – his assets is a trivial issue in this discussion.

cheers

@patriot

“Are you claiming that India is a dictatorship, and that we are now in an environment where anything goes? That is a very dangerous argument to make.”

Read my post again and note the “For example…”. This was an analogy not an outright claim on my part.

“why can not an ineffective, corrupt and obstructive government be tackled electorally? Why has the Bharat Swabhiman backtracked on electoral politics and instead decided to take up blackmail?”

What is your proof that they have backtracked? They are continuing that too from what I can see. In fact the fast is a great part of it. I’m sure that Ramdev now commands a lot more votes. You are making the illogical assumption that the two are mutually exclusive. Also electoral politics involves blackmail. Ramdev has following in crores and implied in his electoral forays was the blackmail that if govt. does not do something about corruption he will use these votes against them. So stop whining about blackmail

“Are our electoral systems broken? The current results in Bengal and Tamil Nadu, and earlier in Bihar would argue the reverse, but I would like to understand from you why you think that this matter can not be resolved electorally?”

I never said that. In fact you are saying that I am saying it cannot be resolved electorally. This is nonsense. And about the current results in Bengal TN, Bihar etc. you are joking. TN seems to vacillate between a thug and a psychopath. Both Bihar and Bengal had to suffer for decades and decades under misrule and horror. Even today there is no guarantee that the electoral process has thrown up anything admirable in Mamata.

“Interesting – but, you dodged the question – would you agree and/or support the govt of the day negotiating with the Maoists?”

Dodge the question? When did you ever put it to me for me to “dodge” it? Forget about Ramdev. I’m beginning to have serious doubts about your ethical integrity. Either that or wou seem to be suffering from some serious delusions about people here. In any case, you can understand my answer from the previous comment that negotiations are part of EVERY conflict.

“Please visit http://www.freedomteam.in – where we have spent over 1000′s of man-years on policies and strategies on how we could reform India. We need 500 leaders, to take India to its rightful heights. Not one, or two or five or ten. Please join us. Please get all your civil activist friends to spend time on the website and then join us, if they think that Politics is their calling.”

Wow. You guys are having your own little party out there and here is Ramdev actually putting his life on the line, provoking the mighty and monstrous Congress and unmasking it’s brutality, barbarism and thuggery for all the world to see. I would have had no problem with you and would have wished nothing but the best. But why don’t you just mind your own business and leave Ramdev to follow his own way? What is the need to throw stones at him? Just continue with your policy-making and strategizing. I know that at least by complaining about a guy who is actually getting results you have very effectively deterred one person from joining or aiding your cause. The next time I hear the words “freedomteam” I am running away as fast as I can. And yes, I will be sure to spread the word to my friends as well.

“Also, how nice to be able to comment on ethical integrity of someone you just met electronically, after just a few posts.”

Was based on the fact that you cleverly tried to accuse me of dodging when all you had to do was ask. Such clever little tricks do not bode well for anyone’s “ethical integrity.” Alternately you could have bothered to see the obvious implications of my earlier claim. To put it simply I was not dodging anything but you chose to make it appear as if I was.

“One final comment – how easy it is to criticise. How difficult it is do a better job.”

How easy is it to preach while practicing the very opposite at the very same time!!!! What exactly are you doing with the one guy in the India today who has managed to get the Congress aristocracy to wet it’s royal diapers?

@Patriot:

I realize I have been a bit too harsh in my approach as well. Am sure you have nothing but the best of intentions and do seem to be doing a lot and sincerely apologize for anything personal that has crept into my comments.

@ G –

Thank you for your patience. And, we would welcome an honest dialogue with you on FTI – we have a guest category, where you can observe and interact with us, for a while, before deciding to becoming a member or leaving.

If interested, Shantanu would be happy to connect you.

Cheers

@ G-

Fair enough.

Whether Ramdev is correct is not the real point here. The fact that we need people like Anna and Ramdev protesting against corruption that seems to be incurable in this country is a vindication of the absolute failure of the so-called democratic system in India. It is now a kakistocracy run by criminals, gangsters, mafia and money-grabbers.

Today, no one in power has India’s best interest at heart, least of all our great prime minister Shri Manmohan Singh-ji who, as the most useless prime minister of all time, is a puppet whose strings are firmly in the grasp of his Italian minder Madam Antonia Maino who otherwise calls herself Sonia.

As a common man, I whole heartedly support Ramdev and Anna’s actions whether they are politically aligned or not. I am sick and tired of bribing, begging, bowing and pleading with fat corrupt government officials and policemen for anything we need to get done by these so-called public servants.

Congress has done more damage to this country than most people can imagine, starting even before independence in 1947 with Nehru’s handling of the Kashmir situation and the Punjab partitioning. His daughter attempted a dictatorship and fascist takeover through her illegal emergency rule for two years from 1973, and her daughter in law seems to follow in her footsteps.

Freedomteam’s ‘latest news’ on their website is dated August 2010. I don’t have any issue with Patriot’s views expressed here, but it seems to me that the main intention of the first comment was to drive traffic to the website. Just like the government that didn’t take the right actions in the run-up to the 4th June events, not many seem to have objected to the coercive methods of Anna and Baba till it was too late.

At this moment though, the most important thing is to make sure that the government does not beat and shoot innocent people. The issue of tackling extra constitutional bodies and emotional initiatives can be handled later.

Patriot wrote:
“The means matter. Not just the ends.”
__

And do you think that your smug, self-righteous comments are the best means to achieve the ends of FTI, be it to increase its membership or to make it a viable political party?

I think the problem is that Black Money is a monster with many limbs all over the place. The moment you challenge this monster, a lot of dogs wil come loose from various sides and start mauling you.

I suspect Baba Ramdev may be a “simpleton” (politically) as some people have written. He may not have known how big this monster has become. His ideas and suggestions also seem a bit simple or naive or straight forward. I think he was brave to have tried it, it may be the courage of the naive person, I hope I am wrong. But whether the monster will slay Ramdev or the other way, remains to be seen.

Sonia and Co must be charged with Crimes against the people of India. If Guj Police and CM can be in the dock for deaths of terrorists like Shahbuddin and Ishrat why not the Empress?

A fascist state in action:

http://www.sify.com/news/beaten-at-ramdev-meet-gurgaon-woman-struggles-to-live-news-national-lggu4hieeab.html

New Delhi, June 6 (IANS) More than 40 hours after she was brutally assaulted by police at Ramdev’s meeting here, a 54-year-old housemaker has become a paralytic and is struggling to survive.

A resident of Gurgaon, Raj Bala is one of the many who were attacked during the midnight police crackdown on thousands of Ramdev supporters at the Ramlila ground here before dawn Sunday.

Doctors at the G.B. Pant Hospital here said that Raj Bala was beaten up with police ‘lathis’ — as stated by those who witnessed the assault — on her neck and back.

In the process, her spinal cord has been damaged.

On Monday evening, she remained warded in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) of the hospital, kept alive by ventilator.

‘Bala has suffered post-traumatic fracture dislocation with quadriplegia (paralysis),’ said a report by the hospital’s Medical Superintendent N. Shashi Gururaja.

‘The patient does not have spontaneous respiration and is on ventilator support,’ it added.

Raj Bala was among the many who were initially rushed to the Lok Nayak Hospital, the nearest medical facility to the Ramlila ground, before being shifted to the neighbouring G.B. Pant Hospital.

‘Balaji was among the first few to be admitted. Her spinal cord is broken,’ a senior doctor told IANS on condition of anonymity. ‘She is in critical condition.’

One reason Raj Bala was moved out of the Lok Nayak Hospital was because it was flooded with injured Ramdev supporters in the wake of the widely condemned police crackdown.

According to doctors, quadriplegia or a state of paralysis occurs when the neck area of the spinal cord is injured. This affects the movement of the limbs.

‘The patient is obeying simple verbal commands. A surgery has been done,’ said the hospital report.

Raj Bala has been heavily sedated and her condition is being monitored regularly.

The woman’s family is distraught.

Daughter-in-law Rakesh quoted doctors as saying that she may not recover from the present state.

‘The doctors say recovery from paralysis is rare,’ she said. ‘We never thought such brutality by police would land my mother-in-law in hospital.’

Officials at the G.B. Pant Hospital are, however, reluctant to say how many more victims of the police action are still warded at the hospital.

‘We can tell you this only tomorrow (Tuesday),’ Gururaja said.

Her case was first highlighted by Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Sushma Swaraj, who added that two other men had their skull bones cracked by police.

On his return to Hardwar, Ramdev also referred to Raj Bala while demanding action against Delhi Police for ‘brutalities’.

Police said 39 Ramdev supporters, including four women, as well as 23 policemen were injured in the violence at Ramlila ground.

Ramdev supporters, however, say that more than 100 people were injured in varying degrees.

More confirmation of Sonia’s personal hand in the aggression. Italian fascism has come to India via Sonia and Rahul:

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/how-will-the-congress-counter-the-bjp-propaganda/20110608.htm

“Like his mother Congress President Sonia Gandhi , Rahul Gandhi is also said to be worked up about Baba Ramdev and the manner in which the government handled the issue

It was only after the Sunday evening meeting convened by Sonia Gandhi at her residence where top ministers and AICC general secretaries were present, that the confusion dissipated.

The leaders emerged from 10 Janpath with the clear message that the Congress president had pushed for tough action against Ramdev and that she was deeply upset and angry at the spectacle of four senior ministers going to the airport, which looked like as though they had gone to receive him there.

Congress perceived the Ramdev show as the show of the BJP-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and its cadres, plus Vishwa Hindu Parishand leader Sadhvi Rithambara sharing a dias with Ramdev is said to have further infuriated an already irate Sonia Gandhi.

another first hand account of what happened on the night of 4th June at ramlila ground
http://nationalizm.blogspot.com/2011/06/5-june.html

This again proves that swami ramdev was willing to give arrest at a point – but police was interested in creating chaos

further rajat sharma has reported in his article on indiatv that ramdev called him on 4 june morning that he had got insider information that gov would raid the protest by huge police force, and will also try to kill him. rajat sharma replied ramdev that it would be unlikely, he later says that when he got the news of raid late night, he was proved wrong… and may be that explains why ramdev finally tried to flee from the ground, since even after trying to give arrest, the police instead of taking arrest, was more interesting crushing the protestors, and was interested in creating a much bigger disaster there… which they could not do since the protestors did not get so much incited (because swami ramdev had asked them all to be calm)