Jeffrey Armstrong on Vedas, Vimanas and Devas
Thanks to Parthasarathy-ji for alerting me to this recent interview of Jeffrey Armstrong. I found it fascinating for the breadth of subjects it covered and the insights it offered. Some excerpts below (emphasis added). As some of you may know,
Jeffrey Armstrong is an award-winning author of numerous books on Vedic knowledge..He is a philosopher, practitioner and teacher of the Vedas for the past 40 years. He has degrees in Psychology, History & Comparative Religions, and Literature and had a successful career as an executive in Silicon Valley before turning to teaching full time. Jeffrey Armstrong (Kavindra Rishi) is the founder of VASA – Vedic Academy of Sciences & Arts in Vancouver Canada. ..(and) a global advocate for the Sanatana Dharma Culture.
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Daily Bell: How did you get interested in Indian culture and religion?
Jeffrey Armstrong: Religion is the wrong word to use for India’s teachings. Religion is a word that is more accurately applied to the Middle Eastern Abrahamic cultures. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are religions. The origin of the word religion, from the Latin, is re-legare (a legalistic system of rules given by God) or ‘bound by rules.’ Re = tied up or connected by, and ligion = legare = ligaments = to tie, bind or bandage. The usual idea is that the practitioner of a religion is bound up in rules or laws. This especially applies to the three Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, whereas the spiritual practices of India are called a Dharma Culture. The main difference is religions generally have one book of rules and stories whereas a Dharma culture has a library of spiritual and material knowledge aimed at understanding who we really are and how to properly use everything around us…
Daily Bell: What do you believe in and why? What application does it have to the West?
Jeffrey Armstrong: My lifelong effort has been to try to find things that are universally true rather than relatively true…
What we now call the West is the outgrowth of a tribal or city/state approach to living on the planet. This means if you take care of your tribe, you are seen as good. So, to all those tribes who were fighting against each other for thousands of years in a series of wars, that essentially meant that as long as the spoils of the wars were brought back and shared amongst the tribe, they were good. Alexander the Great was a prime example of this. He went out to rape, pillage and conquer, and was a monster to the rest of the world, but was considered great by his people, hence the name…India, on the other hand, is the only culture of its size in the world that has never gone out and tried to spread its beliefs by war. In fact, it has consistently given shelter to anyone from any culture. So, to compare histories, the west is a competitive, war-based civilization and India has been a nurturing, cooperation-based civilization on an epic scale…
Daily Bell: Are there lost Indian cities under the sea?
Jeffrey Armstrong: There is at least one that was discovered in 2001 in the Bay of Cambay, which is off the west coast of India. In a routine, environmental scan of the bottom of the sea, a city was discovered which turns out to have the largest megalithic stones of any city in ancient times; artifacts were dated to about 10,000 years ago. ..The city sits in about 150 feet of water, which indicates it was built before the last melting of the polar ice caps, which most geologists date conservatively at about 12,000 years ago. It appears to have had a building format similar to the cities of Harappa and Mohendro Daro (3000-5000 BCE), which were previously thought to be the oldest cities of India ..But this underwater city off the coast of India suggests, conservatively, 15,000 years of sophisticated human history in India.
Daily Bell: Did the ancient Indians know how to fly and to build flying machines? Are there replicas of these machines on the tops of ancient temples?
Jeffrey Armstrong: On the latter question, I am not sure I have heard that there are replicas of the airplanes or Vimanas as they were referred to in the epic histories of India. But there are two Indian epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, the two epic poems that supposedly took place 5,000 years ago and over 1.2 million years ago in India, and the Ramayana actually begins with a scene in which a very sophisticated stolen airplane is being flown all over the Earth. Such ancient stories, thousands and thousands of years old, have no logical reason for talking about airplanes in any modern sense. Yet they do.
…Daily Bell: Did ancient Indians consort with aliens and travel through time or to other dimensions?
Jeffrey Armstrong: The cosmology of India describes our universe as having fourteen parallel realities on multiple levels, all existing and intersecting within the material realm in which we are currently living.
One of those levels is called the Deva realm. The Deva realm is supposedly the home of the beings who actually conduct the laws of nature to which we are subject. This view of Divine helpers is much misunderstood as the so-called many gods or also as demi-gods, but in India they were never viewed as God, gods, demi-gods or in competition with God. They were, instead, viewed as souls (or more accurately atmas) like us, but living on another plane of material reality and performing specific jobs as administrators of the laws of nature. So, gods is the wrong word for many reasons, the main one being it implies ‘God,’ which is not an Indian word in the first place. These beings are called Devas, meaning beings who ‘work in the light’ assisting the Supreme Being by enforcing the laws of nature that allow the universe to function as it does.
…So as for the alien question, it was always the view in India that there are other dimensions of intelligent life in our universe who communicate with humans and that the Devas specifically are the intelligences operating behind the laws of Nature. …The Vedas describe infinitely multiple universes filled with many Earth-like and other diverse planets and many kinds of intelligent beings living in these other dimensions, some in contact with this realm.
The closest modern analogs are found in some of the theories of quantum physics, one being string theory, which suggests there are something like eleven parallel realities that are running simultaneously with ours. This idea in physics, of parallel realities crisscrossing, is undeniably reminiscent of the ancient teachings from India…
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Somewhat Related: Of Vimanas and Time Travel and Where is Krishana’s Dwaraka? by Varnam
हे à¤à¤—वानॠ! यह हिंदà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µ का रंग silicon valley में à¤à¥€ फ़ैल गया है! लगता है कि जेफà¥à¤«à¥à¤°à¥€ आरà¥à¤®à¤¸à¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°à¥‹à¤‚ग राषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°à¥€à¤¯ सà¥à¤µà¤¯à¤‚सेवक संघ का गà¥à¤ªà¥à¤¤ सदसà¥à¤¯ है! 🙂
/ठठोल
रफिका बहनजी,जैसे आपने आपका नाम उलà¥à¤Ÿà¤¾ लिखा है (उलà¥à¤Ÿà¤¾ ‘काफिर’ पढने से मालà¥à¤® हà¥à¤µà¤¾)) वैसी आपकी सोच à¤à¥€à¥¤ बगैर सोच-विचारके à¤à¤¸à¥€ बांग तो न पूकारा किजीये! शà¥à¤°à¥€.आरà¥à¤®à¤¸à¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤à¤—को आप RSSका गà¥à¤ªà¥à¤¤ सदसà¥à¤¯ कहतें हैं। आप किस संसà¥à¤¥à¤¾à¤•à¥‡ गà¥à¤ªà¥à¤¤ सदसà¥à¤¯ हैं?
Can you provide the link of the recent interview of Jeffrey Armstrong?
“But there are two Indian epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, the two epic poems that supposedly took place 5,000 years ago and over 1.2 million years ago in India”.
–5,000 years ago and over 1.2 million years ago ??? Can somebody please explain this? thanks.
Very interesting. Indeed hindus or should we just say vedic people were very learned and advanced. But how do we connect that with to days concept of hindu nation. Granted hinduism is not a religion in the same sense as christianity or islam is. But for the rest of the world it is those who follow vedic teachings are hindus. And hinduism is a religion. That is as simple as that and they know who these people are. So for them, when you create a “hindu dharma nation” or whatever you call it based on the vedic teahing all you are doing is the same as muslims are doing by creating islamic republics. If you think that is a right thing to do. Fine. But it is not good enough to do what think is right, if it is perceived by the rest of the world as NOT right or perhaps wrong.
@Morris: ” “hindu dharma nation†or whatever you call it based on the vedic teahing all you are doing is the same as muslims are doing by creating islamic republics.”
–“same”???Look at the history of the last 5000 yrs…rather last 2000 yrs !!! Aren’t the differences between religions of Islam-Christianity and Hindu dharma too glaring and too drastic to be unobservable ? Of course, for that it’s better to have an undoctrinated brain, which the abrahamic faiths don’t seem to allow their true followers to possess!
@ #6,#7: Hindus of India want a “Hindu Nation” for India alone. They are interested in what the rest of the world follows. Bhaarat (India) and Hinduism are inseparable.
To know more about the Vedic timeline here is the link:
http://apnabhaarat.wordpress.com/what-is-a-relegion/hinduism/
||namO Bhaartam, namO Sanskritam||
AAryan
Neil
Differences are too glaring and too great to be unobservable. Agreed. But that does not prove any thing. We are all doctrinated whether we like it or not. The way some folks are presenting their views here, it would be difficult for them to prove that they are not doctrinated. But I would agree that a relatively less doctrinated brain is better. But I think still better is an evolving brain. A brain that is aware of the present, not just internally but also externally and willing to chage the views depending upon the changes in external conditions. A brain trying to live in the past is indeed a very much doctrinated brain.
Why Avatars or reincarnations of God are necessary. Why did’nt the first Avatar speak the final truth. That is what Judeo christian religions have done. Hindu thinkers did not do that. They came up with the idea of Avatars. Periodically let God come and show the appropriate path. And that is what Krishna said in Gita. That is evolution. Undoctrination, I don’t know but I think he implied evolution in thinking. Appropriately doctrinated and evolving.
Jury very much still out on string theory; it may in the end prove to be totally wrong. However this does not mean I think there are not scientific and mathematical (and other) gems to be found within vedic/ / ancient indian literature (I know there are). Would be cool if the multiple dimensions, aliens and planes stuff was true, but erm, I wont hold my breath. More study is needed, with good, objective, translators. More archeological evidence is also needed. In any case it may well be that we are only touching the tip of the iceberg of India’s archeological legacy. It is damn sure worth pursuing – 15000 years of sophicated civilisation – amazing!(And most likely more) They say the Roman empire fell and regressed, but it may turn out to be nothing compared to the fall of ancient India.
I am glad that Hinduism and its vedic teachings (or “dharma culture”) are not like the rigid, intolerant Judeochristan faiths, they rather more fluid and I think it does require a more intelligent, less doctrinal approach which is better. Although some might say it is just a “pick and choose” culture, I am not sure about this. I believe it could provide a strong framework for the evolution of religious and existential ideas. This may be a downfall as well as a strength; I don’t know enough ultimately to truely say.
For I have no sources which I believe are truely non biased (neither pro nor anti), and that is the crux of the issue, as it is with many issues – the lack of cold, hard, untainted information.
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नरेनà¥à¤¦à¥à¤° जी,
शायद आप ने अंत में “ठठोल” नहीं पà¥à¤¾! ठठोल का तातà¥à¤ªà¤°à¥à¤¯ है हासà¥à¤¯,विनोद,वà¥à¤¯à¤‚गà¥à¤¯ (tongue-in-cheek) – और यह वà¥à¤¯à¤‚गà¥à¤¯ उन लोगों के ऊपर था जो बिना शोध के सनातन धरà¥à¤® व वेद का तिरसà¥à¤•à¤¾à¤° करते हैं और हमारी à¤à¤¾à¤°à¤¤à¥€à¤¯ संसà¥à¤•à¥ƒà¤¤à¤¿ में कà¥à¤› à¤à¥€ सकारातà¥à¤®à¤• नहीं पाते! अपितà¥, अगर कोई वà¥à¤¯à¤•à¥à¤¤à¤¿ वेद या सनातन धरà¥à¤® में कà¥à¤› अचà¥à¤›à¤¾ पाता है, तो उसे “हिदà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µ” या “RSS” का उपनाम दे कर उपेकà¥à¤·à¤¿à¤¤ करते हैं, तà¥à¤šà¥à¤› समà¤à¤¤à¥‡ हैं! मेरी टिपणà¥à¤£à¥€ इस संदरà¥à¤ में पà¥à¥‡à¤‚! वैसे मैं आपका à¤à¤¾à¤ˆ हूà¤, बहिन नहीं! 🙂
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How are the two same? In what aspect?
You would be correct if Sanatan Dharm either said the same thing about how to treat non-Sanatan-Dharmis, as Islam says about treating non-Muslims under Islamic rule, or if there was a precedent of Sanatan Dharmis acting like Muslims and spreading their religion like Muslims did by killing/converting non-Muslims. Or if any such treatment of non-Sanatan-Dharmis were sanctioned under Sanatan Dharm.
Morris, instead of equating all religions, you might want to look at what that religion says about treatment of non-adherents. You can look at Nepal – which was a Hindu kingdom till not so long ago – and Bhutan (a Buddhist country) and see if non-Hindus and non-Buddhists (respectively) were/are persecuted, or not. That would be the real test, instead of falsely equating all religions.
Correction (missed “not” in They are ___ interested ):
@ #6,#7: Hindus of India want a “Hindu Nation†for India alone. They are not interested in what the rest of the world follows. Bhaarat (India) and Hinduism are inseparable.
To know more about the Vedic timeline here is the link:
http://apnabhaarat.wordpress.com/what-is-a-relegion/hinduism/
||namO Bhaartam, namO Sanskritam||
Kaffir
If I am not a hindu, I do not know what Sanatan Dharma means. To me it is a religion. I am not suggesting that by that I mean it is a bad religion or it is going to treat me badly. All I am saying is that it is a religion different from mine and I cannot identify myself with it.
As far as treatment of citizens is concerned, predominently xian countries like the US, Canada and several EU contries treat all citizens equally regarless of their religion. But they have not constitutionaly declared themselves xian counties. Only muslim countries have constitutionaly declared themselves Isalmic republics. And if you want to do that then you will join their ranks.
I am not sure how you would like to make India a Sanatan Dharma nation and what would like to do that you are not being able to do now. You have significant minorities in India. And let me repeat what I said before that it is not good enough to do what you think is right if it is perceived by the minorities to be unfair and unjust. And that is guarateed to happen. If all are going to be treated equally in your Sanatan dhrma nation, then why not start building it witout calling it as such. What is a big deal about it. Let us talk about what you are going to do.
Morris, my comment was simply a criticism of your logic. I think the discussion of India becoming a Hindu nation is somewhat academic at this point, though it is fun to poke holes in the thinking of secular-bhakts. Anyway, there are some European countries (Norway, Sweden, to name two) that have an official state religion – that is, they are not secular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion#State_religions_by_country
So, your statement that “But they have not constitutionaly declared themselves xian counties. Only muslim countries have constitutionaly declared themselves Isalmic republics.” is factually incorrect.
Additionally, no one in their right minds would (well, maybe Mr. Deodhar would, but then I did mention ‘people in their right minds’ ;))
1. claim that the citizens of Sweden or Norway, who belong to minority religions, perceive it to be “unfair and unjust” because these two countries are not secular; or
2. put Norway and Saudi Arabia in the same category when it comes to the rights of minority citizens, just because both these countries have a state religion.
Anyway, this is all somewhat off-topic, as the post deals with Mr. Armstrong and his research.
Morris, and if you feel like it, you can answer my question (on the appropriate thread) I asked you in comment # 12:
“How are the two same? In what aspect?”
in response to your comment where you equated “Hindu dharma nation” with “Islamic nation.”
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Morris,
How is this relevant? Why is ability (or not) to identify with a religion some kind of yardstick whether it should be the state religion or not?
Just two examples:
Where does the motto “satyameva jayate” come from, and how can you relate to it if you cannot identify with Sanatan Dharm?
Where does the symbol on Param Vir Chakra medal come from and how can you relate to it if you cannot identify with Sanatan Dharm?
You may also like to read a Harvard mathematics Professor’s books. He is Richard L. Thompson and has written extensively about accurate astronomical knowledge described in Vedas and Puranas. Most noticeably in The Cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana – Mysteries of the Sacred Universe, and Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy.
He describes how these books contain amazingly accurate dimensions of celestial bodies, their orbits, etc. He speculates about an earlier age of highly advanced scientific development.
Or maybe, these texts were directly dictated by Gods, and man could not fathom its significance till the present scientific advancement could decipher it!
Any which way – the books written by Richard L. Thompson, are worth reading.
I request Shantanu to come up with detailed critiques of these books, and enlighten his readers more!
Such ancient stories, thousands and thousands of years old, have no logical reason for talking about airplanes in any modern sense. Yet they
do.
Shantanu, I find it hard to believe that this is sufficient for you to run a dedicated post with the title containing “Vimanas” in it. Shockingly high level of credulity … just my opinion. Feel free to ignore. Your blog, your choice. 🙂
Its really great to see that a person of Foreign origin is taking pains to fathom the depths of Our Vedas/Puranas…I feel pity on our fellow Indians who are belittling this Great culture by not teaching these to our new generation
Thanks for awakening us Dear Shantanu…. God Bless
@Morris: You be the judge as to what you want to follow. – This is the freedom that Sanatan Dharm allows! Because Sanatan Dharm was not something that was “invented” to control humans and form a religious-political group at the cost of annihilating humans who don’t agree to it. Without going into the concepts of gods etc, this is the main contrast with the abrahamic faiths.
I refuse to bow down to accept inhuman traditions of hatred-centric religions in the name of considering their “perception of what is right and wrong”…Why can’t we use our logical heads and think about it…? Here is a nice talk by Sam Harris on whether scientific approach can help us decide what is right and wrong: http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html We have a great tradition of criticism of dharm..you can follow what u want as long as u don’t infringe on the rights of fellow humans or harm them for not following your perception.
u said: “If all are going to be treated equally in your Sanatan dhrma nation, then why not start building it witout calling it as such. What is a big deal about it”
What is the objection here? Why you want to discredit the history of the thousands of years old Indian dharmic culture? It’s like asking somebody to teach say, about, say mathematics without calling it mathematics!
Kaffir
I agree discussion of India becoming a hindu state is academic and I think it is just a dream and very unlikely to become reality. While I am not a worshipper of secular concept I too like to poke holes in thinking of those who are dreaming to establish religiously based state.
I know some EU contries have a state religion. In fact the UK has it too. That is why I said several EU countries. I did not say all. But they are relics of history. None of them will adopt it now. For them the issue has become irrelavent. The only countries these days think that the issue is relavent and are moving in that direction are muslim. And here the folks want to go back and argue that the issue is very relavent just like the muslims do. That is why they can be compared.
Difference between Norway and Saudi Arabia is very simple. Saudi Arabia practices its state religion and if need be will adopt it again. Norway does not practice it and it just has a hitorical relavence. But here you don’t have it and want to adopt it. Why?
With respect to your question in #12, I did not mean to comapare your Sanatan Dharma with Islam. Islam is in its own leage. What I meant to say is that non-muslims in Islamic countries and non-sanatana dharmi in India both would experience similar feeling of mistrust of the state. If the state is going to treat every one with equal respect then what is the need for legally adopting a religion for the state. What is that you want to do that you cannot do unless you have this state religion? That is beyond me. And that is how those who are not hindus will feel. And I think there about 180 million of them. Close?
We can briefly touch the topic of the article. Armstrong talks about artifects going back to 10000 years or more. It would be interesting to hear views of an indian archeologist. I have not read any such thing let alone going back to 1.2 million years. Needless to say India had a glorious past. And all of us should be very proud of that. More we read about the past more impressed we are. But we cannot bring it back. We have to work with what we have now. And that is a huge challange.
1.When one understand the TRUE meaning of ‘Vasudevaya kutumbakam’, one understand the universality of VEDAS.
2. When one understand the pattern of ‘ICE AGE’ and implications pre and post, one understand the eternity of VEDAS.
3. When one understand the foundations of all ‘RELIGION’ and its RELATIONSHIP with Big bang, Evoloution Theory, Colonialism and Industrial revolution, one understand the significance of VEDAS.
4. When one understand the TRUE meaning of MORALITY, one understand the purpose of VEDAS.
5. When one understand what is GREED AND VENALITY (BILDERBERG GROUP) which is shaping up the world all the time in modern times, one understand the KNOWLEDGE OF VEDAS.
6. When one is looking for TRUTH AND JUST TRUTH and CONCRETE ANSWERS/SOLUTIONS, one will find his/her way towards VEDAS.
7. When you will get the reasonable answers, you will establish a clear link between VEDAS and its significance in today’s WORLD.
8. When you have the COURAGE to GUTS IT OUT all the adversities and UPHOLD MORAL VALUES, you may know VEDAS.
Neil
I agree with most of what you have said. I am not sure why you keep bringing Abrahamic religions into discussion. They have nothing to do with a concept of state religion. I think both Judism and Christianity are evolving with the time and their religions is not holding them back. In fact they are producing great thinkers and scientists who are not only transforming the world but also challanging their own religion. Sam Harris is saying that we do not need religions for morality.
Yes Islam is a different ball game. It has not much common with other two. Islam seems to be stuck in the seventh century thinking with no sign of moving forward. If a thiker like Sam Harris emerges from among them, they will have a fatwa on him. It is christian countries that are moving forward with progressive legislation defining human rights, freedom of speech and other social policies.
Just by saying that there is no need to have a state religion I am not discrediting history. I am going forward. I am not stuck in the past. I am mindful of the fact that there are almost 180 million indians who would say that they do not believe in Sanatan Dharma. So it is you have to give reasons why you want to do that and what is the upside other than your ego.
Let me say that the issue is academic. BJP is unlikely to form a government with out right majority to discuss this subject.
@Morris: “I think both Judism and Christianity are evolving with the time and their religions is not holding them back.”
– I don’t think the religions are evolving, rather I believe the people’s minds definitely are…I mean people are not allowing their religions to hold them back by IGNORING the problematic instances in their scriptures..that’s an awesome thing indeed…that’s the way forward; but this doesn’t mean that the religious principles as prescribed by the respective “prophets” have changed to anything progresive! Christianity, while it’s not as fatal directly when compared to Islam in this age, still there is an entire army of prosetelizers trying to convert people of other spiritual/’religious’ beliefs. I wonder why is this hatred-inspired zeal for converting masses even in 21st century?
“I am not sure why you keep bringing Abrahamic religions into discussion. They have nothing to do with a concept of state religion.”
–Because of the word “religion”. When u compare the Indian way of life, what people call as “sanatan dharm”, u will find that it’s not a ‘religion’ per say at all, if u consider the abrahamc faiths as ‘religions’ at the same time.The distinction has to be made clear and it should be kept in mind wenever we discuss anything that involves the word ‘religion’!
2ndly, I don’t think the purpose of Shantanu’s post or most of the comments here was to discuss establishment a “Hindu”/”Sanatan Dharm” nation by constitution! I have no issues if the 180 million people you are talking about are ready to take a logical approach in dealing with themselves and their neighbours than taking guidance from a 7th century u-know-what….And when they do so, I feel, they will not be in conflict with what we call sanatan dharm.
Morris wrote:
#1
#2
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Morris, looks like you want to have it both ways. On one hand, you argue that the Christianity of European countries is irrelevant, and on the other hand, you say Christian countries are moving forward. How are they moving forward? By adhering to their Christianity or by making it a relic of history and denying it? Logically, it’s not possible to be both.
Also, your criticism of Hindu state doesn’t hold water if your best argument is “All I am saying is that it is a religion different from mine and I cannot identify myself with it.” Looks like your religion – whatever it is – Christianity? – needs to mature and grow up, if it can’t even allow its adherents to “identify” with another religion. On one hand, you give examples of Islamic states to deter the idea of a HIndu state, then when asked to cite the similarities, you say that Islam is in a league of its own and different from Sanatan Dharm; then you say that Christian states are relic, but Christianity has produced a man like Sam Harris. I don’t see any consistency in your thinking and your ideas seem to be wildly all over the place, illogically careening from one place to another.
You say that it would be difficult for a minority religious person to live in a country with state religion, but when I mention a country like Norway as a counter-example to your idea (minority religious people find it difficult) where minority religious people are quite happy, you agree with me that Norway and Saudi Arabia are indeed different.
What exactly is your argument standing on if the legs under it keep shifting and breaking off?
As for Indian secularism and India treating all citizens as equals and with equal respect, the less said about it, the better it is.
Perhaps you need to get some clarity on your own thoughts and ideas which seem like a jumble, instead of giving me a headache trying to make sense of them.
Morris:
BTW, what exactly do you mean by Christianity and Judaism evolving? AFAIK, both these religions have their books – direct word of God – which cannot be edited by humans.
What’s evolving is that some – not all – adherents are choosing to:
a. leave aside troublesome passages according to today’s standards, and
b. re-interpret some other passages in a softer and milder manner, or in a liberal manner.
So, as Neil said, it’s not the religions that are evolving, but the people and their minds that are evolving.
Anyway, as long as Christianity doesn’t leave aside its evangelical component and the itch to convert others, it will remain an immature religion and will still need to evolve.
Morris:
Who is talking about bringing it (past) back? Did either Jeffrey Armstrong or any of the comments mention that they want to bring the past back – even if it were possible to turn the clock back? Seems like a straw-man argument to me.
The discussion seems to have veered away from the topic, and my perfectly on topic comment has been completely ignored.
Scientific facts, only unearthed recently by the modern science, are contained in Vedas and Puranas. How come our ancestors knew all that? Was there an age when India was scientifically advanced?
It is simply amazing! Why there is no research in that direction? What conclusions can we draw regarding India’s past from these facts? And regarding India’s present state?
At one place in The Cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana, he writes, “If the dimensions given in the Bhagvatam represent realistic planetary distances, we must postulate that Bhagvat astronomy preserves material from an earlier and presently unknown period of scientific development.”,
and,
“..If this information was known it must have been acquired by some unknown civilization that flourished in distant the past.”
These postulates are extremely important for giving right direction to all the discourses on Sanatana Dharma, and everything related to it.
Neil
Of course religions do not evolve. The followers evolve. They do not blindly follow what is written there. And that is what chistians do. Sure there are a few thousands missionaries all around the world trying to convert non chritians to christianity but their number is very small. Keep in mind that there are million and millions of moderate christians who elect gvernmnets in almost all developed christian countries and these governments enact legislations that guaqrantee non-christians right to practice their religion the way they feel they should. It is unfair to judge christians based on few missionaries and just be blind to how overwhelming majority of christians are doing world wide.
“2ndly, I don’t think the purpose of Shantanu’s post or most of the comments here was to discuss establishment a “Hinduâ€/â€Sanatan Dharm†nation by constitution!”
OK what is the purpose? What are you folks preaching?
Kaffir
“you say that Islam is in a league of its own”
That is precisely why you would not want to join them in esablishing a religion based state.
“So, as Neil said, it’s not the religions that are evolving, but the people and their minds that are evolving.”
So what is wrong? Is’nt that what you want? You do not interact with scriptures. You interact with people. How can religions evolve? You want them to rewrite the scriptures? They are not living being. Whether you admit or not christian nations of the west have adopted social policies that are among the most prgressive any where.
“Who is talking about bringing it (past) back? Did either Jeffrey Armstrong or any of the comments mention that they want to bring the past back – even if it were possible to turn the clock back? Seems like a straw-man argument to me.”
If not what are we talking about anyway?
I don’t think I can say any more than what I have said so far. I am puzzled by this obsession against christianity. What in the world they are doing to Indians or say to Hindus to deserve such a twisted thinking about them?
Think and Enjoy.
__
Umm…history and study of Vedas. Do I really have to spell this out for you? Why and on what basis did you assume that it is about bringing back the past, when no one has mentioned it – explicitly or implicitly? You’re running away with your imagination. Please stop being so inimical to study of Vedas and other similar texts.
Yes, by rejecting tenets of Christianity and limiting its participation in state affairs.
As for Christian nations being progressive, South Africa abolished apartheid only on 1993. USA passed Civil Rights Act in 1960s. Indian Constitution outlawed untouchability in 1950s.
BTW, what exactly are you trying to imply by your statement that I bolded above? My response would be – “Yeah, so what? What’s your point?”
Morris, it’s not as if Christianity willingly ceded power to the state and became progressive, after realizing its mistakes and misuse of power, including legalized slavery for centuries. It had to be dragged away kicking and screaming, by force. Please don’t try to whitewash Christianity’s black deeds.
GyanP
You are right. We are getting away from the topic and the points you are raising are valid. Unfortunately, I think hindus were not very good rercord keeper or such records were destroyed during those foreign invasions. Who knows? We can only conjecture. Perhaps it was possible for those Rishes to discover by internal exploration what scientists to day are discovering by external exploration. That is if the cosmology of Puranas is as close to accuracy as you are suggesting. It is also possible as you suggested some unknown civiliztion flourished in distant past.
“These postulates are extremely important for giving right direction to all the discourses on Sanatana Dharma, and everything related to it.”
You lost me there. I am not sure what Sanatana Dharma has to do with all that.
Kaffir
If we are talking about history, study of Vedas etc., I am sorry I was not aware of that. I did not know that.
“BTW, what exactly are you trying to imply by your statement that I bolded above? My response would be – “Yeah, so what? What’s your point?â€
I am not implying anything, I am simply defending christianity that you and Neil are attacking without any reason to do so. I am trying to have you folks look at what christians are doing in broad sense and not just get bogged down on the minor issue of missionaries trying to convert non christians to chrianity. Look at christianity in totality and not with narrow vision.
“it’s not as if Christianity willingly ceded power to the state and became progressive.”
I never suggested at any point that they are willingly doing this or otherwise. On the contrary I suggested evolution in thinking. And evolution implies going through the process that includes unwillingness etc. And that process has nothing to do with their religion. It is not because of the religion, it is inspite of the religion. That is why your comparision of Norway and Saudi Arabia made no sense. Because Norway does what it does inspite of the religion and Saudi Arabia does what it does because of the religion.
So please stop bashing christianity without recognizing what christians are doing and have done. Sure we can find things to bash about in chrianity. But then why pick christianity alone.
With all due respect Kaffir, I do know what Shantanu is trying to do and what he stands for. I am sorry. I thought the blog is promoting the concept of Sanatana Dharma based state. Perhaps I am wrong.
Sorry Kaffir
When I said “I do know what Shantanu is trying to do…..”
I meant to say I do NOT know what Shantanu is trying to do….
Morris, stating some plain facts about Christianity (religion) and discussing its history is not the same as “bashing Christianity.” I have not made any statements about what Christians (people) have or haven’t done.
You wrote: “..minor issue of missionaries trying to convert non christians to chrianity.”
Why is that a minor issue? Seems to me that has been one of the major cores of Christianity – to spread the word by bread or sword, and convert the heathens and unbelievers while destroying their native cultures and beliefs, be it pagans in Europe, or native Americans (North and South), or aborigines in Australia (check out the film “Rabbit-Proof Fence”), or Hindus in Goa, or Pope’s statement in 1999 regarding “great harvest of faith.” So, I disagree that it is a minor issue.
@Morris
You lost me there. I am not sure what Sanatana Dharma has to do with all that.
Sanatana Dharma has to do everything with that. All these scientific facts are described in our scriptures, as I have already said in my above posts.
Richard L. Thompson has written about such scientifically accurate facts as found in various Puranas.
Gyan, thanks for the book recommendation. It looks quite interesting, and the author has written another book about UFOs and compared the modern-day sightings with descriptions of vimaanas from Vedas etc.
@Morris:
I think we veered quite off-topic, anyway, since you asked;
The problematic tenets of Christianity that brought unimaginable tragedies on humanity are still the same, as they were hundreds of years ago. Do you disagree? And the missionaries cannot be ignored simply because they still believe in the anti-human, intolerant, “hatred-towards the other” teachings of Christianity. I am sorry, but the Christians who have progressed, have done so by treating the bad instances in the Christian scriptures with contempt and not following them, i.e by not being a true “Christian”.
Kaffir
“stating some plain facts about Christianity (religion) and discussing its history is not the same as “bashing Christianity.—
Of course not. But learn from the history and move on. You should not keep bitching about one’s yesterday’s sins without being mindful of today’s good deeds. And that is being done here. And only about christianity. We all have ugly past. Why pick the one that has moved on better than all others.
“Why is that a minor issue? Seems to me that has been one of the major cores of Christianity – to spread the word by bread or sword,”
It is not the major but it is one of the core beliefs of christianity. And it is going to remain so. Use of sword is no longer an issue if it ever was. I said earlier, you cannot rewrite the scriptures of any religion. But let me repeat once again that what is being done by these missonaries becuase of the religion pale(a minor issue) in comparision with progressive steps that have been taken(a major reform) by them at their home countries inspite of the religion. What you see is that a few missionaries providing some services and helping people living in underpriviled sections of India and in the process taking advantage of their vulnerabilty and converting them to christianity. These missionaries rarely ever try to convert any one living in other than such impoverished sections. And such sections of the society are usually left by Hindus and other upper class people neglected and vulnerable. Perhaps you do not see that. What I see is that millions and millions of christians all over the world in preodiminantly christian countries not only just allowing but bending over backward enabling non-christians to practice their religion. These non-christians are never confronted with conversion issue by bread let alone by sword. You are at liberty to be oblivious of those facts. I just want to note here that these missionaries are having difficulty recruiting new members.
I just read a year or so ago that some untouchables needed police escort to enter a temple in India. Not only that but after these untouchables left the temple brahmins returned and performed purification ritual. Perhaps this sort of things are happening at some other temples as well. But I am mindful of the fact that Hindus have made a considerable progress in the direction of removing untouchabilty. And I conclude that it is not a major issue. Another person viewing from outside having a tunnel vision will think of it as the major issue. Each one is free to place it in his/her own perspective.
I have a different perspective. So I see no point continuing this.
Unforunately, I still do not know what this Sanatana Dharma issue is all about and how does it relate with what Armstrong is talking about.
This is my last comment.
Enjoy
@Morris,
Can we have some of these progressive steps in their own home country? Would this qualify as progress: the case of a certain Nikki Halley? She was a Sikh American who converted to Christianity and got a very respectable title “raghead” from a sitting US senator and the defenders of the very creed she converted to questioned her loyalty to her faith:
So much for progress and secular apology for Christianity, heh??
@Morris, this is for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts
Please read, understand and then try not to use such logical fallacy in your comments.
While you’re at it, here’s another link: http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/fallacies.html
I’m not going to repeat what I wrote earlier in comment#27 regarding your logic.
Neil
I will just make one comment. You say
“I am sorry, but the Christians who have progressed, have done so by treating the bad instances in the Christian scriptures with contempt and not following them, i.e by not being a true “Christianâ€.”
Is’nt that great? Who gives a damn about being a good christian or good muslim or for that matter good hindu. Be a good human being. Those who are trying to be good religious people are the problem. Where do you think these missionaries are coming from? They are trying to be good christians. Where do you think these jihadis are coming from? They are trying to be good muslims. Where do you think those brahmins who do not permit some people to enter a temple are coming from? They are trying to be good hindus. Read a book by Sam Harris since you asked me to read his views. I think the book’s title is “end of faith.” You folks cannot go past religion. Any religion is not a good one if it does not make you a good human being. All religions have shortcomings. So you got try to be a good human being, and I will repeat it again, inspite of and not because of your religion.
It just baffles my mind about why such a phobia about christianity among hindus.
I have nothing more to say.
Enjoy
Sid
There are always a few weird thinking persons in every society. I don’t judge a society by an incident here or an incident there. If I did that I would have condemned hindu society when I read about those untouchables needing police escort to enter a temple. But I did not. Because I viewed this incedent with a broader perspective. If you are going to condemn chrianity for the case of Nikki Halley carry on and do so. I will not try to talk you out of it. If what missionaries are doing paled in my opinion then this case of Nikki Halley did not even hit the radar.
Why such hate for christianity that you have to pick out an incedent to support it? I thought hindus are taught to respect all religions.
Enjoy
@Morris,
There are always a few weird thinking persons in every society. I don’t judge a society by an incident here or an incident there.Few? Voters of a state look few to you? As usual you have not even read the report I guess.
If I did that I would have condemned hindu society when I read about those untouchables needing police escort to enter a temple. But I did not.I would. That is the difference here. We are not behind in criticizing ourselves when something derogatory happens in our society. And before you go full steam about how evil Hinduism is and how great Christianity is, I am willing to remind you that caste discrimination exists among both Christians and Muslims in the subcontinent. Unlike you, however, I am not an apologist for anyone. We should ourselves abolish the stupidity we call caste.
If what missionaries are doing paled in my opinionWhat are they doing? Please enlighten us.
then this case of Nikki Halley did not even hit the radar.The fact that all major US media outlet picked up and reported on that story does not tell you anything? What sort of unreachable radar do you have?
Why such hate for christianity that you have to pick out an incedent to support it?I can show hundreds … in India and in the world. You want them here? Even a bigger question: what sort of contribution Christianity offered to the world? I can remember the concept of “race” and “saving-your-soul” religions. Also, before you go full way to explain that all these religions are same, do question yourself on why is it that only Christianity and Islam have so many cases against them while other religions (Sikhism, Buddhism, Voodooism, European paganism, animism, Judaism etc) never had such infamy? I excluded Hinduism from the list because it is very difficult to define it as a religion.
I thought hindus are taught to respect all religions.We were taught to respect every method of worshipping the ultimate God. Then it turned out that just because we are respecting someone’s religion, the people following that religion are not showing any concern for our dharma. Your basic point is that while others would hurt us, we would continue to act as if nothing happened because we respect everyone. That does not cut anymore. Our dharma also teaches us that dharma can not be applied in against an enemy that follows adharma. As you sow so you reap. Your evangelist friends sowed a lot, soon they would reap.
Sid
My last comment.
I have said nothing derogatory about hinduism, other than described one incedent where Brahmins did not permit some people to enter a temple. I was basicaly talking about people not about religions. It is you folks here are rampaging unwarranted and not relavant to the subject of Sanatana Dharma, cticism of christianity. It seems to me that the basis of your Sanatana Dharma is hate for christianity. No one here has articulated what Sanatan Dharma stands for and how it will benefit the present day society. But you folks seem to have one track mind. Attack chritianity as if that is going to establish validity of Sanatana Dharma. I have not attacked any religion other than saying that Islam is in the leage of its own.
I think religions have done a great deal harm to the mankind and it is time we stop being guided by the religions in our public life. And christians in the developed world have started to move in that direction. Muslims on the other hand show no evidence of their willingness to move in that direction. Hindus in India have chosen to accept that idea. But foks like you are not happy about it. How people accept that idea may have something to do with their respective religions. But that is a different subject. Religions do not change. People can change.
Enjoy
@Morris: I am jumping in late here but I could not resist responding to your remark re. “No one here has articulated what Sanatan Dharma stands for and how it will benefit the present day society.”
The challenge in answering this seemingly simple question is that we Sanatan Dharmis don’t have A BOOK, or A SET OF RULES, A PLACE OF WORSHIP, much less A GOD. I will therefore stick to a few excerpts and links. You are of course free to ignore/discard these.
Please start with why Hinduism/ Sanatan Dharma could be a role-model for the world
From various sources, courtesy Hindu Wisdom (emphasis added):
He (Gandhi) claimed: “I am a proud staunch Sanatani Hindu.” He took considerable pride in this self-identification. Far from being a dirty word as it would soon become even for some so-called Hindu leaders, the word “Hindu” conveyed to him all that was noble and elevating. He did not feel that he was being “communal” when he called himself a Hindu. For him Hinduism was a a vast, spiritual vision beckoning man to rise to the highest heights.
He has further stated:
“Hinduism is a relentless pursuit of Truth. “Truth is God” and if today it has become moribund, inactive, irresponsive to growth, it is because we are fatigued; and as soon as the fatigue is over, Hinduism will burst upon the world with a brilliance perhaps unknown before.â€
(source: Young India, 24/11/1924 p. 390-396 and The Discovery of India – By Jawaharlal Nehru. Oxford University Press. 1995. pg 75).
***
“The first principle of Indian thought, therefore, is that the ultimate reality is beyond description. It is something that can be experienced only by bringing the mind to a stop; and once experienced, it cannot be described to anyone in terms of the forms of this world. The truth, the ultimate truth, that is to say, is transcendent. it goes past, transcends, all speech all images, anything that can possibly be said. But, as we have just seen, it is not only transcendent, it is also immanent, within all things, Everything in the world, therefore, is to be regarded as its manifestation.
“There is an important difference between the Hindu and the Western ideas. In the Biblical tradition, God creates man, but man cannot say that he is divine in the same sense that the Creator is, where as in Hinduism, all things are incarnations of that power. We are the sparks from a single fire. And we are all fire. Hinduism believes in the omnipresence of the Supreme God in every individual. There is no “fall”. Man is not cut off from the divine. He requires only to bring the spontaneous activity of his mind stuff to a state of stillness and he will experience that divine principle with him.”
(source: Philosophy of Hinduism – An Introduction – By T C Galav Universal Science-Religion. p 19 and Joseph Campbell Foundation).
***
Finally, pl also read, these brief excerpts on Hindutva
How can I call myself a Christian if I reject what Christianity (which has a book from God) says? Seems to me that either you’re not able to grasp this point and keep repeating it in spite of many of us pointing out your logical error, or others (including myself) aren’t able to grasp it.
Morris, would you have a survey that shows the number/percentage of people in the western world who self-identify as Christians has increased or remained the same over the decades?
From what I’ve read, that number continues to decline. That’s why I don’t understand why you keep characterizing the western nations and their progressive attitude as Christianity when that progress has come after rejecting Christianity and with fewer people being religious.
Morris,
First, who or what gave you the idea that Hindus have accepted or rejected something? Hindus follow a dharma that is against centralisation of any sort. Thus no central authority can accept or reject something and demand that all Hindus go by it. Neither me or nor you can make all of them do something and we would like to keep it that way.
Second, I do not know how much I hate Christianity or whether my Hinduism is a direct reflection of my supposed hatred towards prophetic-montheistic cults or not. What I clearly know is that if “folks like me” are folding our hands and depending on Islamists or Evangelists to stop hurting our Dharma then there might not be anything to salvage soon. If we do not do anything, then nightmare would soon convert this country into a bigger version of Phillipines where catholics and Islamists are battling each other for last sixty years. So if raising the voice against Islamists/evangelists brand me as a communal bigot, then that is a small price to pay. Not everyone is dishonest enough to pay lip service against “subversive action” of “few” “fringe elements” and then close their eyes to the daily attrocities with the excuse of “secularism” or “liberalism”.
B Shantanu
Thank you for responding to what was going on here. I am familiar with hinduism and the concept of Sanatana Dharma. It may surprise these folks to know that I am a hindu and that is the only religion(or may I just say concept)that makes sense to me.
Let me tell you what bothered me about this discussion about Sanatana Dharma nation. There is so much one can talk about pro Hinduism but some how these folks here relentlessly managed to attack christianity. They may be right but I considered those critisisms minor and inconsequential when viewed in the context of overall trend. Besides I hate to talk about the faults of others to prove my virtues. I rather talk about what I have to offer.
Here is the way I see it. Generally speaking any community would have three groups. A large mainstream and two smaller groups on either side of it. In christianity, the mainstream clearly consist of those who are moving in the direction of secularism. This group has definitely given up the notion that theirs is the only right religion. On one side of it there are those who do not care for the church, not intersted in religion and some do not even believe in god. This group can be considered secular in their thinking. (Folks here may say people in these two grous are not even christians. But who they are is not my business.) Then there is that third group on the far side of it that still insist that theirs is the only right path and it is their duty to show the world this path. This group I think is small in practical sense and is gradually becoming insignificant. Athough it does include wealthy Roman Catholic church. I admit in the meantime it is annoying the folks here. But that is the price we have to pay for unrestricted exchange of ideas. So what is happening? The concept that all paths are good i.e. hindu thinking is clearly prevailing. Not because we are pushing it but because of its own merit.
I am not able to discuss vedanta and bhagwat gita. But let us just look at day to day hinduism.
Truth is one we can all search it our own way. Secular thinking.
Hinduism is a kind of religious democracy that permits you to search your own path. It has no central authority and no dogma. Hindus can visualize their own personal god and no one denounce him. You don’t like the path you have chosen you can start a new one. You are free to do so. That is why there are so many panths, gods, godesses myriad of scriptures, gurus, swamis, etc..The same is true about religious rituals, ceremonies, practices etc.. You don’t like a ritual, you can modify, change or drop it. Not much is mandated. There is no other religion on earth that can even come close in allowing so much diversity.
Now look at the secular system which I said is prevailing in christian developed world. Some what similar concept, they are legally allowing. In that sense the day to day hinduism is actully nothing but secularism. No wonder India did not have any difficulty accepting this concept. I think India’s secular concept is unique and to me it is not the ideal. Perhpas it should be debated and revised. Unfortunately there is only one national secular party and they are unlikely to so so. So I am not sure how the concept of Sanatna Dharma is going to fit in here and how it can help to govern the country better. That is what I wanted to discuss but we could not manage to stop bashing christianity.
There is so much in hinduism that we coud be proud of and can articulate as to why it makes sense for the modern world. Hinduism is the only concept that makes sense in this rapidly integrating world. In my opinion hinduism has no contradicion with the secular concept. And the world is moving in that direction. When Krishna said all paths lead to me he did not place any condition on it. That includes even those that claim to be the only right one. We have to accept it until they themselves come to realization to the contrary. And if they never do, so what? They are free to preach. And if we keep instisting that what we say is right then what is the difference between them and us?
Any way that is where I am coming from.
Morris, this post was about Jeffrey Armstrong and his fascinating research into Vedas. The word “nation” and “Hindu nation” first appears in comment # 6. 🙂
Gyan, this link might be of interest to you – it discusses the archaeological evidence of submerged ruins off the coast of Gujarat and textual evidence (in Sanskrit) to corroborate it:
http://dai.ly/hvyyFC
So damn tired of these stereotypical interpretations.The above interview sounds more like the notes of a UFO-believers cult.
Why are you so obsessed with validation and definition? If you were so confident in your religion why does your faith seek so many reinforcements?
What has flying objects to do with discussions of the human moral compass? When are you going to move beyond multitheism and the many-paths-to-truth jargon?
Hate to break it to you but not even Hinduism is perfect. It has its own chinks and own needs to evolve. It has to solve or atleast offer succour to humanity’s problems here and now -in this world; who cares about the next? Why don’t you discuss on that instead of getting idiots to pay glowing tributes to ancient Hindus’ “possible interactions with aliens”?
Cannot believe you found Armstrong’s views insightful. His version is only the next installment of the snake-charmers, rope-climbers bulls***.
I must agree with twistleton on the UFO-believers cult part.
Shantanu, I am really amazed at your drive/motivation to make things better for India and enjoy some good stuff that you post on your blog. But honestly, this stuff on Vimanas is a deal-breaker.
I am tempted to ask this: Is there an “official” stand from FTI regarding whether or not ancient Indians built and flew around the globe in their flying objects? It may be a stupid question (or perhaps not, since a leading member thinks that the story offers insights).
For what it is worth, feel free to ignore my comment.
@kk (#55),
Not sure about FTI or Shantanu’s stand but take a look at this thread:
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/06/vimanas-and-time-travel/
The IISc report that analyzed the Vimanika shastra:
http://cgpl.iisc.ernet.in/site/Portals/0/Publications/ReferedJournal/ACriticalStudyOfTheWorkVaimanikaShastra.pdf
@twistleton (#54),
If you were so confident in your religion why does your faith seek so many reinforcements?Not only I find this offensive, I am surprised with your ignorance. What has Hindu faith got to do with “aliens”? Hindu faith is quiet separate from Puranas. Puranas are open to interpretation, faith is not. Hindu puranas has been interpreted and re-interpreted to belittle or glorify Hindu civilization depending on who interpreted them. People like you would be delighted by the interpretations of Wendy Donniger and make a case of freedom of expression, but according to you Jeffrey Armstrong will be the next edition of snake charmers? I can guess the motivation.
When are you going to move beyond multitheism and the many-paths-to-truth jargon?What is so wrong with “multitheism and many-paths-to-truth”? You appear to be follower of the opposite and unable to accept those who respect “multitheism and many-paths-to-truth”.
Hate to break it to you but not even Hinduism is perfect.It depends on your idea of perfection.
It has its own chinks and own needs to evolve. It has to solve or atleast offer succour to humanity’s problems here and now -in this world; who cares about the next?It supplied the spiritual need of a big group of people in the subcontinent for more than 6000 years and during the course parts of it has changed several times to meet the need of the changing times. About humanity’s problems, humanity itself has created most problems for themselves, it is Hindu learning that they themselves have to solve it, not some archangel coming from sky.
kk, would you like to explain why “this stuff about vimanas” is a deal-breaker to you?
Scientists and academics similarly speculate and research on Nazca Lines in Peru, and try to explain their existence by offering certain hypotheses. Would you be equally dismissive of such efforts related to Nazca Lines in Peru, or is it only when it comes to something related to Hinduism?
Are you dismissing even the possibility of such an explanation related to vimanas? And if so, based on what? Has it been conclusively proven that extra-terrestrial life doesn’t exist? Have our Vedas been thoroughly studied and researched – or are you dismissing them even without any examination? Why would scientists have a project like SETI?
And do you associate yourself with people who share the exact same thinking and ideas as you do, and do you bring in a “deal breaker” if there’s one difference of opinion? If I were to agree with you on most issued related to India’s development and unlike you, were to entertain the possibility of ideas of someone like Jeffrey Armstrong, would you refuse to work with me towards the common goal shared by us, citing a “deal breaker”? If so, that seems like a very intolerant attitude to me.
@kaffir
dude, did you even read the report, the link which you have so obligingly provided?
Leo da vinci also designed a flying machine. It is not entirely impossible for people to have thought of the idea before.
And anybody is welcome to fantasize about there having been time-travel and flying machines. And you can believe it too. But to claim that it makes Hinduism GREAT is going too far. Do we have anything to show for it TODAY? Since time and space separates them and us by this much, we cannot take indirect credit for what Hindus (?) might have done in the past.
Unless what the author really means to convey is that ancient Hinduism (for want of a better word) was actually a branch of science (hypothetic study of the metaphysical world), and our “gods” were creative names given to represent A, B and C. Now THAT is an interesting idea. And one which can be carried forward unlike your high-flying theory (pardon the pun)
The temptation to romanticise the past is one few are able to resist.
No offence meant at all buddy, I accept your impassioned defence of Hinduism. You are absolutely right. But why you gotto fly off the handle everytime? I am not attacking Hinduism at all. I am only attacking its so called defenders. Hinduism has got so much to offer, and all the author falls back upon is simplistic explanations, pandering almost, to WESTERN notions of “mystic” allure.(That is why the validation argument) Who’s the traitor now? Ok traitor is too strong a word. How about Pseudo-Hindu?
@twistleton, which report? What link did I provide?
@kaffir,
My main reason for not perpetuating feel goody Vimanas stuff is lack of evidence. Implications of such flying capability by ancestors on our human history are quite profound. I personally find the credulity to swallow and perpetuate this stuff without sufficient evidence disappointing (just because this material is found in literature originating from Indian subcontinent). This propensity to believe stuff (selectively from your favorite religious books only) without sufficient evidence scares me. This makes me wonder about the implications if the aspiring leader/politician gets to power. I have the same reaction to people making claims (without evidence) based on koran, bible etc. On the contrary, let me ask you something: Would you have the same reaction if someone makes a claim about flying objects and aliens extrapolated from Scientology or bible or koran?
If Shantanu believes that humans who lived in the Indian sub-continent flew around in flying objects called Vimanas, then its is his choice. I just voiced my opinion, especially since he is part of a political party that is seeking my vote. Meanwhile, I shall wait for more evidence to show up (perhaps the aliens will visit us some day, seriously).
I do acknowledge that I may be over-reacting and my fears about Shantanu’s propensity to “believing” stuff may be unjustified.
Anyways, these are my opinions. I don’t expect you, Shantanu or any one else to agree with me. To each his own.
This sort of things should be left to the scientists to study what has been found and to the archeologists and researchers for new discoveries. Hinduism as a religion has nothing to do with it. If you want to be proud, sure be proud for what has been ascertained about achievemnts of your ancestors. But don’t speculate just to be proud. In any event it has nothing do with the religion.
This is worthy of some serious research and follow-up, I think: Indian Scriptures Mention Gravity 1500 Years Before Isaac Newton: Former ISRO Chief G Madhavan Nair