W’end Links: Pink Chaddis, Self-Defense & Political Correctness
Start this weekend by reading Kanchan Gupta on pink chaddis, double standards and pub culture. Â
Then read why Ram Kumar believes offence is the best form of defense.
…and end the day with some politically correct terms to stay out of trouble, courtesy GreatBong.
Bonus: Dear Mr Muthalik by RealityCheck
Excerpts from all the articles below, as always
*** Excerpts from Liberty is not libertinism by Kanchan Gupta ***
…It is doubtful whether the Left, leave alone the Right, would endorse the enterprise undertaken by The Consortium of Pubgoing, Loose and Forward Women to collect pink underwear, sneeringly referred to as ‘chaddis’, which will be sent to Pramod Muthalik and his hoodlums on Valentine’s Day this Thursday. There is nothing amusing about either this ‘creative’ protest or Union Minister of State for Women and Child Development Renuka Choudhury’s call for a ‘pub bharo andolan’; both merely highlight the moral bankruptcy of a certain segment of our urban society which seeks to impose on India the trailer park ‘culture’ that permeates every aspect of their lives.
The issue really isn’t one of culture and tradition, which are far too complex for those who look askance at responsible behaviour to comprehend, but the manner in which they view others who may refuse to embrace or applaud their lifestyle. It is also to do with perverse notions of ‘modernism’ and assertion of perverted ‘modernity’. For instance, The Consortium of Pubgoing, Loose and Forward Women — this Facebook group also has men as its members — would consider women who don’t consume alcoholic beverages or smoke cigarettes, wear saris and are not necessarily long-suffering wives who spend their lives as home-makers but in building successful careers, as ‘backward’.
They would view working women who travel in over-crowded buses and commuter trains and return home in the evening too tired to contemplate a night out on the tiles, or those who contribute to the family kitty to keep the home fire burning and, therefore, cannot afford the luxury of scoffing exotic cocktails at pubs, as losers deserving of their pity. The women who scrub floors, wash clothes and clean dishes to eke out subsistence wages from which they save money to pay for their children’s school fees and books, and are regularly beaten black and blue by their husbands after they have had their fill of liquor at ‘pubs’ which cater to the underclass, simply do not matter and, hence, are not worthy of The Consortium of Pubgoing, Loose and Forward Women’s attention.
There is also the aspect of duplicity, the double standards which are practiced by those who equate ‘pub culture’ and its attendant libertine self-indulgence with being ‘forward’ or ‘modern’. For example, a woman with the pallu of her sari firmly placed over her head will be sneered at as not only ‘backward’ but also a ‘conservative’ who is preventing society from moving ‘forward’. But a woman forced to clad herself in an all-enveloping burqa will be seen as being true to her ‘faith’ and ‘culture’, which only underscores the amazing ignorance of those who do the tagging.
…Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar did not give up his sacred thread nor did he get rid of the tuft of hair that denoted his caste; he wore a short Bengali peasant’s dhuti and used a coarse cotton chaador to cover his torso. He was a scholar of Sanskrit who was barely able to make ends meet, leave alone indulge in the smallest of luxuries. Such a person would be an object of ridicule and worse for The Consortium of Pubgoing, Loose and Forward Women, especially the male members of the group who would burst into derisive laughter. That’s understandable. For those busy collecting pink chaddis would be blissfully ignorant of Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar’s pioneering role in championing women’s emancipation and promoting widow remarriage. Nor would they know about Raja Ram Mohun Roy who led a remarkable campaign for social reform without abandoning culture and tradition: The Brahmo Samaj was — and remains — grounded in India’s civilisational identity and cultural ethos while repudiating aberrations and excesses of faith.
…None of this is in defence of Pramod Muthalik’s hooliganism. But to oppose misplaced and vulgar vigilantism is not to support the obnoxious celebration of ‘pub culture’. Liberty, after all, is not about libertinism nor is modernism to be confused with libertarianism.
…There really is no need to fashion our lifestyle after Sex and the City. But if informed — or should it be ill-informed? — adults elect to do so, it is their choice and they are welcome to it. Of course, provided they do not seek to impose it on others or demand approval, acceptance and applause.
*** End of Excerpts ***
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*** Excerpts from “We need a national self-defence movement” by Ram Kumar ***
Invincibility lies in defence; victory in the attack: how aptly put by Sun Tzu. As the terrorist attack on Mumbai unfolded, my mind was running through these thoughts. With the figures of casualties, came the realisation that we all are so easy a prey. The commandos finished the job. But, look at the work sheet—just 10 terrorists caused the death of almost 200 people and injured nearly 300. That is an average of 20 killed and 30 wounded by one terrorist, where, the ratio of all forms of casualty stands at a ghastly 1:50.
…Imagine a hypothetical scenario, where just 10 prospective victims scream and charge on the terrorist and he squeezes the trigger, emptying the magazine on the chargers. Then the terrorist will remove that magazine, grope his pouches for the filled magazine, fit into the right slot, cock the weapon (guide the bullet into the barrel) and then restart firing. This sequence, if well trained, takes around 10 seconds in practice ranges. In reality, this will take over 30 seconds and the chances of the terrorist fumbling in fear are very high. In the first outburst, in an extreme case, a couple of the chargers will get injured or die. But the remaining number can pounce on the terrorist and incapacitate him. It is quite likely that not more than three persons will die and not more than five will be injured, freezing the casualty count at eight, which is better than 50.
…a terrorist in most of the cases is introduced to the weapon and after a very minimal induction, sent on a mission. With such minimal exposure, he resorts to indiscriminate firing and escapes if confronted with least opposition. His reflexes will only push him behind and the intended victim though unarmed, will gain an upper hand.
Every citizen should be made to understand that offence is the best form of defense….The fear factor induced primarily by ignorance is way too advantageous to the terrorist. This myth of an assault rifle being disastrous should be killed and we should realize that it is the man behind the weapon and not the weapon which needs to be addressed. If the man behind the weapon is weak, a state of art weapon is equivalent to that of a block of wood…. An understanding of the real destructive power of the enemy, training, being in a ‘kill or be killed’ situation and the knowledge that ‘offense is the best form of defense’ is what allows soldiers to overcome their fear and do the seemingly impossible. I am not suggesting that we train every citizen to be a soldier, but if we can do just enough so that every citizen is aware of the basics of what is the real capability of the commonly used ‘terror weapons’ and if we can educate them on how to react in adverse situations, we may have done our bit…
*** End of Excerpts ***
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*** Excerpts from Politically Incorrect to Politically Correct Dictionary by GreatBong ***Â
Barber –> Hairdresser
Tailor –>Fashion Designer
Grocer–>Food Retailer
Pickpocket–>Economic Offender
Snake Oil Salesman–> Research Proposal Writer
Bonded Slave—> PhD student
Incorrigible Gossip –> Blogger
Mujra –> Item Number
Indifference–>Spirit of [insert Indian city name]
Copying–>Internalizing
Spousal Abuse–>S&M
Terrorist –>Misguided youth
Wife/Husband–> Partner
Partner –>Business Associate
Sleeping Partner–> Financier
Casting couch –>Talent show
Pakistan –> Front Line ally in the war on terror
Leching –> Aggressively Appreciating
Fat –> Healthy
Criminal–> Politician
Scary looking woman –> Woman of high moral character
Ugly looking man –> Bachelor of Engineering
Code coolie–> Software Engineer
*** End of Excerpts ***
Recent Weekends:
Godse, Nataraj and the “Good Doctorâ€
Obama’s Nightmare and Suggestions for BJPÂ
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I appreciate Kanchanji’s command over the English language. His slotting of the key proponents of The Consortium of Pubgoing, Loose and Forward Women into convenient slots and attributing values and motives to them looks a bit too convenient for me, as is his juxtaposed sympathy for the toiling masses. Sir, the people who live in trailer parks are (also) human beings who are not in a position to own a house, mostly due to economic reasons. The “trailer park culture†sneer is as uncalled for as the handkerchief over your nose as you pass Dharavi. You could have spared them that.
If he wants to utilize this diatribe to hold forth on the evils of the demon drink, I am all with him. (Old UNICEF study – Cost of meeting all the needs of the world’s children = US$ 34 billions vs Expenditure on beer = US$ 160 billions).
How did poor Vidyasagar come into the picture? And how does Kanchanji know that all these pub-going loose women would necessarily sneer at him? Either he is their close confidant or he is just making up a hypothetical loose woman and giving her all the attributes that suit his purpose. Second option a better match?
And, my dear sir, who draws the line between libertinism and liberty?
Man, Mr. Gupta is on fire. Every week, one good column after another. I really enhoy his and Mr. Swapan Dasgupta’s column. Please read my take on the issue of Kolkatta Muslim riots against Johann Hari: “Johann Hari has Hindu Phobia”. Thanks.
Don’t know how many of you have read this but it explains the crop of issues in India and the support the Jihadis and Khalistanis are getting from the Anglo american axis. We should always be wary of these guys
http://www.mid- day.com/news/ 2009/jan/ 220109-Malegaon- blast-case- 452-witnesses- Central-Intellig ence-Agency- Lt-Col-Shrikant- Purohit.htm
‘CIA plans to split India by 2015′
By: Ketan Ranga
Mumbai: Reveals a serving army officer, who is one of the 452 witnesses in the September 29 Malegaon blast case
In a shocking revelation, an army officer, one of the 452 witnesses in the September 29 Malegaon blast case, has revealed in his statement that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) had a grand design to split India into smaller independent countries by 2015.
According the statement, the officer had attended one of the meetings held by the Malegaon blast accused on April 12, 2008 at the Ram temple in Bhopal. The officer from the Army Education Corps said that he was shocked by the proceedings.
He added that an ex-Raw personnel, who was present in the meeting, divulged these sinister plans of splitting the nation, based on a similar operation in the USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics).
The witness added that the ex-Raw official also revealed that the CIA had managed to penetrate several departments in India. The officer cautioned the witness that the meeting was being observed by the Intelligence Bureau.
Sinister plans
The officer met Lt Col Shrikant Purohit in an official dinner at the Officers’ Mess of AEC training college and centre in the second week of December 2007 at Deolali. He told Purohit about a plan to take premature retirement to develop his village, and establish an old age home.
On January 26, 2008, Purohit asked him to come to Faridabad and meet a few people for his project. There he was introduced to Sameer Kulkarni and the other accused in the Malegaon blast case. Then on April 12, 2008, Purohit called him for a meeting at Ram Mandir. He met all the Malegaon accused and another 20 people, along with the ex-Raw officer and the IB source.
The former RAW officer spoke about the USSR and Purohit spoke about his plans to bring Abhinav Bharat to the fore. Purohit also spoke about Hindu fundamentals and his contacts in Israel and Thailand.
I FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHY LOOK AT WEST TO CELEBRATE LOVE ! WHY CAN’T WE CELEBRATE “VASANTOSTAV” ON VASANT PANCHAMI AS WE REFER TO 360YRS B.C. VASANTOTSAV WAS CELEBRATED IN MAGADH & TAKSHSAHILA.
WENEED TO SENSATIZE NEXT GEN ABOUT OUR CULTURE & CULTURATED LOVE WAS BORN IN INDIA THE LAND OF VEDA IN THE EAST WHERE SUN RISES BUT SETS IN WEST.
@ Pramod – feel free to celebrate love in any manner that you wish, moral police permitting. And, let others celebrate love the way they want to. That is the way of natural liberty.
Ours is the land of Kamasutra and Khajuraho and the heavenly apsaras and divine liquour (that makes you lose all your senses) ….. that is our culture, not the victorian, prissy one that the various senas would try to impose on us. The senas are the enemy of our true culture, not free love.
Cheers
I was thinking about how the BJP just lost any chances it had of cobbling together a coalition after this year’s national elections – after all, beating up the youth you want to appeal to for votes is not exactly a winning strategy. And, you have already alienated 48% of the population – women – with your paternalistic attitudes. So, you are just left with the raving, raging lunatics, who thankfully are still a minscule minority. Good Luck with that ….. and then I come across this Tavleen Singh article in today’s Indian Express …. looks like even the faithful are disillusioned. Is this the end of the Saffron chaddis?
(The link is not yet up on the IE website – will post that tomorrow, but you can read her article on the e-paper section)
@Patriot, I am very curious to know your real name. Based on my perception of your religious and cultural knowledge of Bharath, I believe you must not be a hindu, or a hindu who never got opportunity to mix with scholars or to understand religious principles. No offence meant, but a mere curiousity as I perceive a clear misunderstanding of Hindu literatures. I repect your right not to disclose yourself if you choose so.
———-
Nowadays everyone talks about kamasutra, without having an iota of understanding of the dharmarthakamamoksha tatvas. This lack of knowledge is prevailing so much in India even amoung Hindus, that they go by what they hear from west, rather than trying to understand the principles from bonafide religious scholars. I see no difference between the psedo-intellectuals who vulgarise hinduism and the talibans, afterall both are misinterpretations only. A real wise man will seek knowledge from bonafide people rather than accepting half baked interpretations from unauthoritative sources.
Facts about Renuka Chowdhary
http://www.greatandhra.com/gossips/may2007/ramsels_renuka.php
http://mynation.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/renuka-exposed-lying/
http://feminazisofindia.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/arjun-singh-in-dowry-case-renuka-defends-him/
http://feminazisofindia.wordpress.com/2007/08/19/renukas-violence-against-men-in-uniform/
Another loose woman here. Have a look at what a woman corrupted by Western ideas says.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/knickers-in-a-twist/423238/2
Everything said and done, I would prefer to put double the number of bullets into someones head to the number of slaps he slapped on a WOMANS face.
“yatra naryastu poojyante ramante tatra devataaha”
Jai Hind, Jai Hindu culture……… we dont need no vulture to safeguard our culture
@patriot
If we take a stirde of KamaSutra and Khajuraho than lets not forget our is the land of four ashrams too. Right thing at right time is the message of four ashramas.
“Ours is the land of Kamasutra and Khajuraho and the heavenly apsaras and divine liquour (that makes you lose all your senses) ….. that is our culture, not the victorian, prissy one that the various senas would try to impose on us. The senas are the enemy of our true culture, not free love.”
—
@Patriot, I agree that ours is not the Victorian culture that believes in guilt and shame over sex. But I’m having a hard time (no pun intended) drawing a conclusion from “the presence of erotic sculpture on the walls of some temples” to indicate that ours was a culture of “free love” – as in, anything and everything goes wrt sex.
Are you sure that there’s only one interpretation to be drawn from erotic sculptures – the one which you conveniently draw? Are there any other examples of this “free love” in our past, or was sex and sexual behavior permissible within a certain context of married life?
While everyone is worried about our constitutional right to pink chaddis and valentines day, let me point out how our rights are being taken away from right under our noses.
Two events have taken place in the last few weeks which no one seems to want to discuss. One is the taking over of the ancient temple of Chidambaram in Tamil Nadu by the government which violates the basic principle of secularism and separation of church and state. The other incident is the arrest of the editor of The Statesman for reprinting an article which muslims found offensive. Even after apologizing, the editor was arrested by the Calcutta police. This is the same state that thought it fit to drive out Taslima when she offended Muslim sentiments. Following on the heels of last years attempt by Barkha Dutt and NDTV to go after a blogger, we need to ask ourselves if we still have the right to free speech in India.
All: Thanks for a very engaging discussion and debate…I’m travelling with poor internet connectivity but will try and respond later…
Also thanks for all the links.
***
@ Harapriya: You are right…these two happenings seem to have been blanked out my MSM.
More on all this later.
*** COMMENT RESTORED ***
/ Was mistakenly held in moderation queue /
@ Kaffir:
I guess the term “free love” has many meanings – the meaning you drew was what was expressed by the 60’s generation in the US.
I was talking at a more fundamental level – that, as a human being, I am free to love whom I want, and society can not impose any restrictions on that. (At a very narrow level, one bars young children from professing their love, as their thinking is held to be not fully developed – but, here it is a question of age – 15 vs 18 vs 21).
@ Indian:
I agree with you about the ashrams – but, here I would propose a small difference with tradition – the individual gets to decide when he wants to enter each stage of life (ashram), and it is not driven by age. After all, as science continuously improves the quality and quantity of our life, the markers should also move. Any views?
@Nanda:
Since I wrote a guest post for Shantanu, my name is not exactly a secret.
And, I fail to see what being a hindu has to do with it – unless you are part of the hindu gang, that goes by the name of bajrang dal/VHP.
If I am finding my own answers, then I am a Sanatana Dharmi in my own right – I do not need gurus or others’ perceived wisdom, if I choose to make my own path, find my own goals. Isn’t that what our great tradition is all about? Self-actualisation?
As an Indian, I can drawn down on all our accumulated knowledge, irrespective of which clan tries to claim it for their own.
And, finally which bonafide religious scholars? Self-appointed gurus raking in the money, through crass commercialism? Or self-appointed seers who seek to control temples for their own good? Or self-appointed guides to history, who refuse to peer-reviewed or answer questions?
Who gives the authority to the authoritative sources? Can this authority be proved empirically or through experiments?
Generally, your scholars have scuttled away by the time I have come to these questions.
@ Kaffir:
BTW, if you read up the Mahabharata (unedited and un-excised), you will find innumerable examples of extra-marital sex – most of it was, of course, driven by need for progeny.
The interesting thing I found was that the women in Mahabharata were free to have carnal relations with men, other than their husbands, (and vice-versa), but the children always belonged to the marriage, even if they were sired outside. Pretty interesting.
@Patriot
Great you read Mahabharata, I have read as well but in Sanskrit. Can you please advise if you read Sanskrit version and if you know sanskrit? Also, did you get a chance to get these clarified or confirmed by any sanskrit educated experts (who studied sanskrit from childhood)?
Just wanted to make sure. Because all the experts that I have interacted with differ from your interpretation(assuming you interpretted yourself from unedited and unexcised source).
I am eager to get a positive reply for these questions.
@Nanda:
My above post is a foot note to my actual post – so, let me respond to you after Shantanu restores the original post.
And, you read it in Sanksrit? Whoooopeee-doo …. I read it in Zulu. Is that okay?
@Patriot
You have taken it too personal, please take your time to respond.
Oh zulu, may be thats why you misunderstood, please don’t spread misinterpretations. People will think you hate hindus because of your hatred.
@ Nanda –
I do not take any of these things personally. So, no worries about that.
Please explain how you set yourself up as an authority to arbitrate who has understood what. Maybe, it is you who have chosen to understand it only one way, while there are multiple facets/layers to each of the stories (which is what makes Mahabharata fascinating to me).
So, please do not go about spouting nonsense about my motives or understanding.
And, having a different interpretation is not equivalent to hatred. That is a very narrow, monolithic view, much favoured by monotheistic believers.
Ram Kumar: “Every citizen should be made to understand that offence is the best form of defense….The fear factor induced primarily by ignorance is way too advantageous to the terrorist. This myth of an assault rifle being disastrous should be killed and we should realize that it is the man behind the weapon and not the weapon which needs to be addressed. If the man behind the weapon is weak, a state of art weapon is equivalent to that of a block of wood”
Superb analysis …. this also ties in with our right to bear arms, which is generally proscribed for the common citizen.
@Patriot
For a change, you could first answer my questions at 17 which will be a good justification for your interpretation. That would do more productive than commenting on me. I am not surprised by your reaction though. I’m still curious how you want to justify your vulgarization of hindu literatures.
@ Nanda:
The answer is no … I did not read it in Sanskrit, but I have discussed what I read (in English) with some religious folks and monks (from Ramakrishna mission) whom I know …. they had the exact same reaction as you …. get all huffy and insulted.
Why is it so hard for people to take on a different view?
Now, please explain why is my view a vulgarisation? Isn’t that calling names, too?
And, this is really interesting …. the symmetricity ….. I was having an interesting discussion with a Pakistani chap on another blog about some of the stuff in the quran.
When he reached a point where he did not have a rational answer for my questions about the various restrictions in the quran, he suggested that I should read it myself and discuss it with religious scholars before spouting my nonsense.
So, I asked him for a good English version to read … guess what he says?
He says you need to read it in the Arabic, as that is the language in which the original quran was written and I need to discuss it, too, with Arabic scholars!!! And, the reason for this was pretty good, too – he said that that was the language in which the prophet spoke, and the original arabic book is hence the only one to refer to. So, I asked him if the book wrote itself while the wisdom was transferred from allah to the prophet to the book, to ensure that there were no human errors? Predictably, he got all huffy about it and the conversation ended there.
Talk about entry barriers to informed dissent – nice little virtuous cycle these band of religious scholars have created!
And, this conversation has another inference, which should also be food for thought for those who seek to promote and propagate hindu culture:
Which is the single largest religion in the world, by numbers?
Christianity
Which is the most published book in the world, all languages combined?
The bible
The church has always tried to preach in the local language …. instead of saying that the bible was originally written in latin, and hence it should be studied as such. So, besides the colonial agenda, maybe language has something to with the spread of christianity?
Buddha did something similar, when he started preaching in Pali, instead of Sanskrit which was the language of the brahmins/priests/learned in those days.
@Patriot
Ok, so your first version of ‘unedited and un-excised’ doesn’t hold good anymore, because you read what has been already interpreted. I wouldn’t wonder why they should not have that reaction, afterall they might have felt insulted.
‘Land of kamasutra and kajraho’ when quoted in aloof is vulgarization, because, this represents the sanathan dharma as some kind of sex cult. You will argue this, but it is what people understand when they don’t know anything else about hinduism. Kama has important position in the Grahastha Dharma, but it never is the best path to acheive spiritial enlightenment and freedom. I can explain it for days, but this is the summary. The moment everyone just says ‘kamasutra and kajraho’, then the wider phylosophy is delibrately morphed to just kama.
Calling names is when you qualify a person as ‘very narrow’ like I see in your comments, not when you qualify his statement as ‘vulgarisation’.
“‘Land of kamasutra and kajraho’ when quoted in aloof is vulgarization, because, this represents the sanathan dharma as some kind of sex cult.”
Is this not your interpretation of what I said?
And, then some more insults to boot:
“You will argue this, but it is what people understand when they don’t know anything else about hinduism”
I think, in the same manner, I could probably characterise you as a close-minded, pedantic who is so narrow in his vision that he can only acknowledge only one perception, for ever and ever.
How is that in terms of swapping insults?
And, did you read what I said in pt. 15 about “authorities”? (This was the delayed post)
@Patriot
Its more interesting because, when bible gets converted to other languages, they are converted by religious christians, who are ‘believers’. I wish I knew bengali, else I could translate Bible in bengali and give you for reading, so you get much chance to ask such questions on Bible as well.
British, Lefts and their patrons did what they could during last century, to whom Swami Vivekananda gave fantastic replies. When you get time, read http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_4/writings_prose/writings_prose_contents.htm and especially ‘reply to madrass address’.
Bible is translated by Church, Buddha started teaching in Pali, it is not similar to Bible translation because its not a translation.
I have already answered your question on interpretation and vulgarization at #26 even if you prefer not to ask any scholars, so this is not same as your discussion with that musalman. It will be interesting to know, if you also had such questions for Christians.
About #15 on authorities, yes I respect that you are trying to find your own answers, which very well fits into Sanathan Dharm. Actually many great saints and rajrishis did that. Only difference is, their technique of self quest included interacting with other ‘rishis’ who are well versed in literatures. But I guess you can have your own method of self quest. Please share once you acheive full understanding, for ex, what place kamasutra has in a wider sense of self liberation.
@ Nanda:
Thank you for your balanced responses.
Here is a question for you, in all humility:
If an individual decides to let Kama rule his life, does he have the liberty and freedom to follow his goal, without interference from others? Even if these others think, this is not compatible with their understanding of hindu scriptures?
This is the crux of the issue, in my opinion.
@ Nanda:
In response to your other questions –
The bible is available in Bengali … and all the translated versions are “approved” versions as published by different churches. I believe there are three major versions, with some variations.
I have read many (most) parts of the bible (OT and NT)- having an “authorised” copy in English made it the most accessible religious book to me. And, I have asked plenty of questions to my christian friends. And, this includes my wife, who is a christian – you can imagine how perilous it is to ask such questions of your spouse’s religion, which you do not share!
I am an equal-opportunity supplier of impertinent questions on all religions!
To give credit where it is due, among believers, I found catholic priests the most tolerant to my questions (anglican priests on the other hand even add their own impertinent questions!) – I could ask them any “nonsense” without them storming out of the room or answering back angrily. Maybe, it is because they are trained to debate and also tested on their faith as part of their training process. The whole dialogue business is very big in the catholic church, although they did prosecute Galileo.
Re: the analogy of Buddha to the church – this is correct – the point was that if you wish to spread your message to a wide audience, you need to broad base your communications to the fullest.
RE: Vivekananda – have a read a fair bit of him, but I find some of his views very reactionary, especially when he is commenting on social structures. I find Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Rabindranath Tagore so much more englightened in these matters. On the subject of nationalism, nothing to beat Vivekananda.
My search has led to this point currently:
I read religious literature and wonder how people can believe in this stuff in the 21st century. Sanatana Dharma is better than the others, as it provides for more dissent than the monotheistic, top-down religions, but it seems to have become moribund since the British era – maybe, in reaction? The part of Sanatana Dharma that I absolutely embrace but from a slightly diff perspective is the concept of Brahmana (universal knowledge (or energy, as I think of it)).
@Patriot,
Hope my answer in #26 made some sense unlike your discussion with the islamic person. My intention was to only to demonstrate the big picture.
You brought up a very interesting question and I agree this is the crux of the issue. I am pretty sure I’m not enlightened enough to answer this convincingly, but I can try.
Based on my understanding, scriptures provide guidance to understand sprituality and for ultimate liberation. They speak about multiple paths which lead to this goal and even the paths which do not lead to this goal. My understanding is its upto the individual to pursue what he needs, thats why Sanathan Dharma never objects to any way of life. So, for the question, with my little knowledge, I believe, the indivual has right to let kama rule his life as long as its his life alone, even if its not recommended by Hindu scriptures. But the fact still remains that as per the Dharma, he is not going in right direction, but he has the right to go in that direction and he will reap the benefits at appropriate time. But noone should force him as long as he doesn’t interfere with others. Actually even great people have gone in Kama route before switching to other routes.
Hope my attempt to answer was atleast littlebit useful.
@Patriot,
As a matter of fact, like what Buddha did in Pali, there are innumerable saints who have provided spritual knowledge in local language. One best example is ‘Alwars and Nayanmars’ in TN. Also, many great people have translated and provided commentaries(bhashyas) on most Hindu scriptures in many languages.
Like you said, the difference is when Bible is translated by churches, hindu scriptures are not translated by religious equivalents. May be that will help in solving many misunderstandings and unhappyness over english versions. There should be hindu approved versions of engligh translations like Church’s bibles. Good point you brought.
@ Nanda –
#33
The combination of your comments #26 and #33 make complete sense to me, while #26 seemed like an arbitrary application of authority!
#34
What you say is absolutely true – we have had Tulsidas in Maharashtra and other gurus from the bhakti movement, as well. The reason I used Buddha as my example is that he brought about this change in hindu thought and culture (in my opinion) – until Buddha, it is probably fair to argue (although difficult to prove) that hindu religious leaders never bothered about preaching in the common man’s tongue, and, in fact, used Sanskrit as an entry barrier to understanding religious texts (so that they could be the only arbiters and translators).
Great chatting with you.
Thanks
@Patriot,
Again I won’t agree Hindu leaders never bothered. Multiple reasons, I could attribute the understanding that Sanskrit was not merely a language of learnt. Sanskrit was a common language but brahmins and learnt used a complex poetic versions. I’ve personally been to a village near Mandya in karnataka where everyone speaks Sanskrit (including shop keepers and water fetching women). During Buddha’s time, he very correctly used Pali for his messages for local people. But majority of India still used Sanskrit as spoken language, except the southern regions. But the sangam literature and alvar/nayanmars literatures in Tamil are arguable dated similar or earlier to Bhuddha’s which means local representation was present even in sanathan dharma. Most other south and north indian languages including Hindi are dated fairly later during first millenium AD, except few which are dated prechristian like Kannada, but by last millenium as you rightly referred, we see local works by saints like tulsidas. In addition, atleast till few centuries back, most languages had commmon sanskrit words and people were able to relatively understand the prose sanskrit if not poetic. This is a good research subject to dwell deep about Sanskrit’s representation in early Indian subcontinent languages.
Nice chatting to you as well. Regards
@ Patriot and Nanda: Thanks for this amazing discussion (and on the other thread too…)
I have taken on too many things on this visit and have been unable to add my thoughts…hope to do that when I have some time to breathe next week..
Thanks.
Hi Shantanu, IndiBlogger is collecting blog posts on various topics – could you add this blog post to the collection? Thanks!