Obama and the Pakistan Connection – The Missing Bits
I was alerted to this article earlier yesterday. It raises some hard (and disturbing) questions about the purpose and the context of US President-Elect Obama’s visit to Pakistan in the early 80s. Some excerpts from India Wake Up: Why did Obama go to Pakistan in 1981? by Brian Baldwin:
What was Obama’s fascination with Pakistan in those decades past when he traveled and spent three weeks there in 1981 during his college years?
Why Pakistan? Germany, or France, or even India or the Philippines, yes … But, it is not typical, not even normal at all, for a student of Occidental College in Los Angeles and transfer to Columbia University to leave the States to go to … Pakistan? Was he seeking out his Muslim roots?
Who were these college friends of his from Pakistan that he travelled with, and what associations do they have in Pakistan? Obama stayed at the Karachi home of a prominent Pak politician, Ahmad Mian Soomro, Soomro’s son served as President before the appointment of Pak President Asif Ali Zardari. In addition, the background of Obama’s visit to Pakistan, or visits?, were obscured by his supporters in reporting that he once visited Hyderabad, India on the way back from Pakistan – but it is now seeming more that the Hyderabad was Hyderabad Pakistan.
How many times has Obama been to Pakistan? Once? Or twice?
In 1981, Pakistan was under martial law. War could have come anytime. What was Obama’s fascination to go to a place that was under travel restriction? Why? There are very reliable reports that Ann Dunham, Obama’s mother, worked and lived off and on in Pakistan during sojourns as a consultant to the Asian Development Bank (ADB).
I ask this exactly at this time, and precisely because of the current Islamic terrorist attacks in India, India which has suffered so much at the hands of Islamists not only for decades but for centuries.
I made comment yesterday as the first reports of the attacks began – the first word in my mind was “Pakistan†and “Islamic terroristsâ€. Many Americans do not understand the long, deep, roots of politicized Islamic terror that run directly to the Moslem Brotherhood and other such 20th Century politicized Islamic movement that did not begin in the Middle East, but began in the heart of what we now call Pakistan.
But when I heard the word “Pakistan†in my mind, it was the voice of Obama saying it. Obama says the word like a native – “PAWQ-es-Stanâ€.
Why? Why does he say the word Pakistan just like a native, and what was he looking for there?
I ask the question. I ask, and I will ask and I will tell all the liberals freaks to go to hell.
…I say, what role did the Pakistani ISI have in this? I say, what role Pakistan? What role Islamic terrorists?
If you thought Brian Baldwin is being alarmist, think again… Here is B Raman asking very similar questions. Excerpts from: Having an Obama In Its Future— Good Or Bad For Us (India)?, published exactly 4 weeks ago:
…The liberals—- in the civil society, in the media, among the opinion-makers— have made Obama seem a cult figure. For them, it will be blasphemous to ask questions about his past, to find out who he really is.
…How can one do it for a transformational, cult figure? Cult figures have to be accepted as such without questions. How can one do that for a Black, who is on the threshold of history by being the first Black to become the President of the US? To question his past and his credentials would be racist. So the American voters have been told.
Can anyone in the US or in the rest of the world assert that he knows Obama well —- his past and his present and what he will be in future? Future is the child of the past.
Obama is a mix of two vintages. The old pre-2006 vintage and the new post-2006 one. All his admirers know Obama of the new vintage. How many know Obama of the old vintage?
Very few. There is no desire to find out either.
Obama of the new vintage has nothing but the highest words of praise for India and Indians. He wants to continue with Bush’s policy of promoting a strategic relationship with India.
What about Obama of the old vintage? Cautious and reserved in exuding any warmth for India and the Indians lest his Pakistani friends and constituents misunderstand.
It is said that as a student he had more Pakistani friends than Indians. He felt more comfortable in the company of the Pakistanis than Indians. It was his choice and nobody could grudge it.
…As an Indian, one will be but human if one felt troubled that he did not disclose this till he became the Presidential candidate. He disclosed this—-as if in passing— when it was alleged that he did not understand the Islamic world and its divisions. He mentioned his visit to Pakistan to show that he knew about the divisions in Islam, about the Shia-Sunni differences.
Why did he keep mum on his visit to Pakistan till this question was raised? Has he disclosed all the details regarding his Pakistan visit? Was it as innocuous as made out by him—-to respond to the invitation of a Pakistani friend or was there something more to it?
One would have expected the US journalists to have gone into this, to have quizzed him on it. But, they didn’t.
As I read about Obama’s visit to Pakistan in the 1980s, I could not help thinking of dozens of things. Of the Afghan jihad against communism. Of the fascination of many Afro-Americans for the jihad. Of the visits of a stream of Afro-Americans to Pakistan to feel the greatness of the jihad. Of their fascination for Abdullah Azzam, who came to Pakistan in the 1980s and started teaching in the International Islamic University in Islamabad. Of the fascination of some Afro-Americans for him. Of the frequent visits of Cat Stevens, the pop singer, to Pakistan and of his fascination for Islam and the on-going jihad. Of his conversion to Islam.
One might think that I am morbid in entertaining such thoughts and questions in my mind. But morbidity is understandable when one has a feeling that one has not been told the whole story, but only a part of it.
It is the right of the Americans to decide who should be their President. It is my right to worry about the implications of their decision for the rest of the world, including India.
As Brian mentions above, Pakistan is not really on the tourist map…and at least one commentator has mentioned on the freerupblic thread that travel to the country was “restricted” i.e. under advisement not to visit.
Should not Obama or his advisors come clean on this?
This is a disturbing revelation. One can only hope that the President-elect has moved on since his visit to Jehadistan (aka Pakistan) 27 years ago. I for one have never doubted his sincerity, vision and commitment to fight terrorism. We cannot ignore the fact that during his election speech, Mr. Obama clearly and strongly said that if needed, USA would attack targets in Jehadistan to eliminate Osama. Having said that, I also wonder what made him choose to speak to Zardari first after his election and relegated MMS to ignominy (was it because he is a puppet on a string and the real power behind the Indian government is with someone else?). Very thought provoking post, Shantanu.
We also need to remember that during 1981, the US was Pakistan’s best friend. Time has changed.
Right now if an American visits Pakistan for no reason would raise eyebrows. However, that was not the case 20 years back.
Going to Pakistan would have been considered good at that time as Russia and their friends (including India) would have considered sworn enemy of the state.
That is not all. Obama is wired to the Saudis too. Khalid Mansoury who is tight with Rulers of Saudi helped Obama get into Harvard. Just google it. Overall there are too many elements in the Obama campaign tight with the Muslim brotherhood. This includes even his barbers with their huge Jihadi beards and Nation of Islam membership.
Very good post @Shantanu, and very disturbing too!
I really think the need of the hour is to have an impartial (no appeasement) 24X7 news channel and a newspaper like Pioneer to be in circulation all across India… not many people will have access to blogs or even care to search google for articles…
Looks like UPA has blocked nationalinterest.in domain in India. SHANTANU, can you confirm if it is accessible in the UK?
Shanth: I am surprised to hear that…Can others check too please?
The URL is: http://nationalinterest.in/
I can access it fine from here (right now in London).
1980’s was the the period when the russian power was threthening american dominance the world over .communism was finding roots strong roots in south america and cuba . in europe ,eastern europe was already in its grip. the few military powers in the arab world like iraq ,syria ,etc.were already under communist regime .india under indira gandhi was supporting russia . china had a huge border of 10 million ‘uigher’ muslims bordering pakistan and russia. the autonomous regions of russia like uzbekistan ,turkmenistan ,tajikistan,etc,were all muslims .now,since central asia and central europe and middle east all had considerable muslim presence ,the americans ,westerners (west europe ),pakistan ,saudis and kuwaitis ,all threathened by the rise of communist movement,which would gooble up their capitalist dominance ,came up with the idea of a ‘mujahideen’ movement to fight a proxy war with india and russia .pakistan,the largest muslim military in the world thus became a theatre of attraction in the early 80’s ,where all the anti russian ‘plannings’ were carried out .the CIA was seen here in the company of osama bin laden and ayman zawahiri discussing ‘mujahideen’ tactics over a cup of tea.’the illustrated weekly of india ‘ was a popular magazine in those days.it carried photographs of israeli and american commandos giving training to the ‘mujahideens’.india was blocked via kashmir and punjab (same period indira gandhi was assasinated in 1984 ),china discovered a million armed ‘uighers’ on their borders overnight.russia woke up to muslim insurgency on its soil,and arabs like iraq ,syria ,lebanon had a solid equipped army with modern technology ready to shoot. the rise of communism was ‘nipped’ in the bud .america and west had funded and trained one of the most dangerous movements in the cold war ,that 25 years later was to become a ‘frankenstein’ monster for the world i.e. islamic terrorism or muslim terrorism .young youths from unemployed landlocked states or muslim orphans were caught young and preached a kind of ‘jihad’ that did not exist anywhere in islam ,but only fulfilled the capitalist domination agenda over the rising communist . today ,the time has come for the world to fight the muslim elements (war and diplomacy both )on a microscopic level as well on the macro level.positive efforts must be made to educate radical muslim youths on the ‘true’ spirit of islam. military strenght if required must be used to overcome them and them explain to them that these things do not exist in islam.non muslims as well as liberal muslims have a huge role to play,or things are bound to go out of hand with the coolapse of huge economies.central asia is reeling with the collapse of russia. if the americans and west collapse now ,it will all be but over .india has been the most sensible player till today in all this madness right from the cold war days . it realised its mistake early ,though it paid a heavy price in kashmir .india now has a huge task to provide proper education to muslim on the positive values because the muslim population is too big to ignore .let us stand up as a nation and prevent the ‘mujahideen virus of 80’s pakistan spreading to india which has many more number of muslims than pakistan . let us not get emotional with ‘hate’ rantings and start ground work from micro levels like basic education and positiveness in all spheres of life .
the time has the come now to closely watch the moves of britian,america and israel to the recent mumbai carnage . we will soon discover ‘who are with us and who r not with us ‘. reagans ,bush ,clinton ,bush jr have all silently watched us suffer . so why r we expecting a ‘miracle’ out of obama ?
in this hour of crises only one thing can save us and that is unity. no one will come and save us, only we have to defend ourself. cause it iswe who is suffreing, every one will pretend to show that they are with us but we have to fight this war alone. and untill we get this thing very very clear in our mind we will keep suffering like this again and again. “jab aap main dum nahi tho dusro key barosey se kaam nahi hota.” first india has to show it’s power then we can think abt who is with us and who is aginst. every indian has to get this very clear that our strangth lies in unity and others are just trying to break us. united we stand and divied we will fall.
Tarun I agree. we need to be united at all the time not only when the terror strikes us. We need to hold our hands first than only other will join us. I have read somewhere U.S govt said Indian politicians were busy squabbling with eachother when the terrorists attacked. They know the truth about India.
Jai Hind!
I agree with Tarique on the point of educating Muslim masses. However, it appears that even education has been highjacked by the ultras. There have been news reports that all along the Rajasthan borders, well constructed madrassahs have cropped up. In Uttaranchal, number of madrassahs increased by more than 200%. West Bengal, UP – all the eastern states have seen proliferation of these instituions.
I do not know where the funding is coming from. The moot point is, if the Muslim leaders in India really want to merge their brethren in the mainstream, they should regulate all the madrassahs and bring them to the level of modern Muslim educational institutions on the lines and standard of Anjuman-i-Islam school of Mumbai and Ahmedabad. Without the regulation and active involvement of Muslim educationists, these madrassah have become breeding grounds for victim mentality, ghettoism and ignorance. People like Farid Zacharia shed tears for the so called marginalization of Muslim masses, but have not done anything practical to alleviate this lable and ameliorate conditions of their own impoverished (both educationally and financially) brethren.
The question is, which of those pipe-smoking arm chair ex-IPS/IFS Fabian Muslim intellectuals of India and ‘Imperial Imams’ stop playing political games, perpetuate their comfortable lifestyles and move to do some work with the masses they purport to be leading?
Tarique,
If you really want to stop hate, first let’s try to get the hate-filled verses of the Quran removed from the book.
How can we go about accomplishing this objective?
gypsy ,if u have been closely following my comments u will notice i have been trying to bring to the notice of our readers the dangers coming out of maddarsas blooming on the indian borders of india .as a proud indian and a muslim i have been trying to reveal to the readers the real dangers facing india from these mindless ‘fanatics’ who have interpreted the muslim holy books in a ‘savage’ manner . as an indian i seek help from u educated learned people to overcome these evil men who will one day mercilessly kill innocent indians as well as my own children .i m crying for help here .but please do not demonise islamic religion ,otherwise the repair process will get complicated and get out of control . the need of the hour is to bring liberal muslim scholars to debate on telivision and newspapers the ‘real ‘ islam and fight the imposter islam that has crept inside for various political reasons .hindus have the biggest positive role to play here , not just only for our beloved india but also for entire universe and humanity .let us begin our fight from uttar pradesh and bihar ,the region that suffered the most during the bloody partition .let us investigate as concerned citizens the ‘indoctrination ‘ from uttar pradesh madarsas and why uttar pradesh can become the epicentre of these activities . let us adopt the progessive gujrat model of madarsas and the anjuman islam values where as a student i sang ‘vande mataram’.if educated hindus adopt a aggressive postering then i see only doom and a point of no return . we have a lot at stake . the khyber pass days are over and the theatre of destruction has now shifted to our coasts . anybody who understands ‘bharatmata ‘ well will tell u that the porous coastline threat is real ,and it needs a microscopic attitude towards the muslim community to come out of the new danger that engulfs us . believe me ,i have not slept or eayten well after the mumbai carnage ,because i know the stakes and dangers to our coastline will be a huge disaster . for tyhe safety and security of our country let us all get together as a nation and ‘nip’ the coastal threat in the bud . today george bush admits that the biggest blunder of his life was the invasion of iraq .he said it in a telivised speech last night.u know why ? today he has realised that he has replaced a non religious saddam hussain who was fighting ‘islamic extremism ‘ on iraq soil,replaced by the more ten time deadly al qaeda and shite extremist . iraq has gone out of control and anarchists and free booters have taken over the nation well armed and equipped . i have a high admirartion for indian stand of non agression . they know what they r going in the long term . ‘islamic jihad’ was a short term strategy devised by american funds and military expertise to wage a proxy war on russia . today we can see the consequences of it .so ,let us adopt a long term strategy from the microscopic levels of fundamentalism ,and dismantle things brick by brick in a manner that we become an example to the world .remember we have to fight a intelligent long term war ,a war for our misguided muslim youths ,a war for peace loving muslims,a war for a ‘shining india ‘. JAIHIND.
reena behenji ,u can start things from grass root levels by explaing to muslims the real meaning of ‘jihad’ and ‘kafir’ which i have already explained to u .do not fall into the trap of these muslim fundamentalists and alienate the peace loving muslims . the extremists have laid a trap ,please be careful and do not walk into it .blindly attacking and killing innocent muslims will actually fulfill the agenga of the ‘hate propogandists’ , and that is exactly what they want . a ‘babri demolition’ video tape has muslim extremists laughing all the way to the bank .reena behenji , i wish if u could devote all ur learnings to help ur innocent muslim brothers come out of a ‘booby trap’ set in the name of ‘corrupted version of islam’.we are all in a grave danger and history will never forgive anyone if as educated we behaved like these ‘fanatics ‘. let us learn some strong points of the extremists who invaded mumbai . if 10 men will proper unity and coordination could give 4 days of sleepless nights to a nation of 1100 million people , u can imagine what we can do to them if we coordinate and unite against them. the choice is urs to decide ,i have made up my mind.
Tarique mian,
First of all, grow a conscience.
Second, learn to admit that the Quran was not revealed by any imaginary pie-in-the-sky voice, but was concocted by the worst criminal of all history.
Third, read the Quran and learn to question it. Don’t just follow it just like a blind mouse.
Fourth, get the hate-filled verses removed from the Quran. The Quran is sole source of Jihad. If you don’t have the intellectual honesty to question the Quran, lets face it: “You are one of them while pretending to be one of us”.
What Babri Masjid? There is no shameful symbol of slavery (built by an occupier) left anymore in Ayodhya – the holiest city of the Hindus.
How would you react if the Hindus destroyed the Kaaba and built a Hindu temple in Makkah? Please tell me, if you have any conscience.
I present to you – STRAIGHT FROM ISLAMIC SOURCES AND MUSLIM HISTORIANS – the tragedy of atleast 3000 magnificient Hindu temples destroyed by Islam:
“Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them (Vol. 1)”
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples1/
“Hindu Temples: What Happened to Them (Vol. 2)”
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples2/
Ayodhya is not the only temple that has yet to be liberated. Every single Hindu temple destroyed by Islam will be rebuilt and those who unapologetically support the same ideology (that destroyed India) will be exposed.
I also quote from ex-Muslims, apostates who have left Islam:
“What the Islamic Invaders Did to India” by Rizwan Salim
http://islam-watch.org/Rizwan_Salim/What-Islamic-Invaders-Did-to-India.htm
and
“Demystification of the Islamic Rule in India, Part III” by Ibrahim Lone
http://www.islam-watch.org/Ibrahim.Lone/Demystification-of-the-Islamic-Rule-in-India3.htm
Tarique,
What are your thoughts after reading these historical articles by ex-Muslims (and the historical sources are Muslim historians):
“Demystification of the Islamic Rule in India, Part I”
by Ibrahim Lone
http://www.islam-watch.org/Ibrahim.Lone/Demystification-of-the-Islamic-Rule-in-India.htm
and
“Demystification of the Islamic Rule in India, Part II”
by Ibrahim Lone
http://www.islam-watch.org/Ibrahim.Lone/Demystification-of-the-Islamic-Rule-in-India2.htm
reena singh ,the authors u r mentioning are not even recognised and their work is not valid in international circles .why don’t u read authors like g.b.shaw ,prof.thomas arnold (knighted by cambridge university for his islamic research ),sarojini naidu ,dr.annie besant,michael .h.hart. these are not even muslim authors and renowned people all over the world .reena why don’t u ask world famous personalities why they embraced islam ? cat stevens (british pop singer),muhammed ali clay (boxer )frank ribery ,eric abidal ,thierry henry (france famous footballers ),will smith (hollywood star )michael jackson ,etc. reena all these and many more are more smarter and more intelligent and more successful people than u .add to that kareem abdul jabbar and shaquille o’neill (famous basketball superstars ).do u want more ? i bet these people are more widely recognised the world over than u and had all the name and fame in the world .
Tariq,
What logic, yaar !
You want me to ask Michael Jackson (a known pedophile pervert) why he joined the ranks of a cult founded by another pedophile Mohammed(PBUH)?
Didn’t you know? Will Smith declared that he is a Christian, when the media questioned him on his close ties to Scientology.
What next? You are going to claim that Neil Armstrong heard Azaan on the moon and per-verted to Islam.
Are you out of your mind? You do not have any rebuttal against any of the points raised by me. You have nothing to dispute the overwhelming evidence and research compiled by Rizwan Salim and Ibrahim Lone methodically(from the historical records of several Muslim historians)
So now, you come up with the nautanki of throwing in celebrity names. So, what is your point here? That Islam is spreading widely in the world. So is AIDS. AIDS is spreading faster at a faster rate than Islam. So what is your point?
Islam has a few celebrities that fell victim to it. AIDS and its Prophet HIV (PBUH) have more celebrities that have fallen victim to it: Freddie Mercury (Rock Singer), Magic Johnson (Basketball legend), Andy Bell (singer), Chris Smith (Baron Smith of Finsbury) and Mark Anthony (movie star).
(I openly admit that AIDS is less dangerous than Islam)
Because of your twisted mind and Taqqiyya double-speak, I have lost all respect for you and your cult, Taqqiyya Tariq.
You (a “moderate”) and the Mumbai Jihadis (“extremists) are good examples of what Islam does to people’s minds.
If any other reader also feels the same way, please speak up.
Reena,
I am enjoying this debate much than any other but not everything you write. Avoid using hurting words. There can be debate without dmeaning the person, faith and religion. Healthy discussion and debates attracts more.
I know one of my friend, he knows that his religion is Islam and he knows Islam is written in a manner that person can never rise. If anyone follows everything written in it will be again in stone age and he hardly follows any of it but still he is muslim. Atleast he is recognising the facts is more important rather than confronting.
Tarique I will request you too, that please dont say Islam is spreading faster and faster. It should be you who should be at forefront for its reformation. Accept what is right and what is wrong in your book you will become more lighter day by day. Accepting truth makes one taller than other. I find reena’s anger also valid amidst such attacks and blast in the country. I know you are not responsible for it but atleast one among the reader of your book is!
It is your time to enlighten us as much as you can when Reena puts a questions to you.
Jai Hind!
indian,i really feel sorry for people who blame a religion .human society will be incomplete without a religion .do not adopt double standards ,just because u have a deep rooted hate for muslims and islam.
reena ,u talk like a frustrated person .michael jackson has been acquitted of all charges and if a paedophile’s philosophy can inspire a human population of 1.5 billion,built 57 muslim majority nations ,dominate the world scene for 1000 long years ,i m sure paedophiles would be the most respected people on earth.and do not put words in my mouth on neil armstrong…i know what i m talking.ANYWAY I THINK I WILL BE INSULTING MY SENSIBLITIES BY REPLYING ANYMORE TO AN IMMATURE DISCUSSION WITH U . U R NOT ANYMORE WORTH IT .GOOD BYE AND TAKE CARE .
Tarique,
Why throw a hissy fit and create a fuss about leaving or stopping a debate? Just leave in an honest and dignified manner if you wish to.
You could have admitted in a mature manner, “I simply have no rebuttal arguments to debate the Ali Sina Challenge or any other historical evidence (with references from Islamic historians”) you presented. Therefore, I accept that my points are invalid”.
Looks like you are stumped for logic and explanations. No wonder you are angry.
The bottomline is you are angry because Islam is indefensible. It cannot be defended by any logical person. So your real anger is at Islam, not at me. I understand that. Its only natural.
Your real anger is at PBUH for tricking you and millions of others since your childhood by using fear as the bait – Fear of Hell (Jahannum) where boiling oil, sharp spikes and torture by fire awaits anyone who dares to question the Quran.
You seem like the child who feels angry when his mom reveals that there is no tooth-fairy or Santa Claus in reality. All the child believed in is just a fantasy. In the case of Islam, it is a dangerous fantasy as the Mumbai Jihad shows.
If you are angry, don’t try to cheat yourself by closing your eyes and ears, and running away from here. If you truly believe in rational thought, try to debate ex-Muslims on the Faith Freedom Internnational’s web-forum and show them why Islam is correct.
(I sincerely wish to thank Dr.Ali Sina for opening my eyes.)
Just because you run away from this argument does not mean I will ignore any misleading or mischievous arguments from you, in the future.
And finally, your fake anger tantrums are nothing compared to the colossal loss faced by India and the rest of humanity since the 7th century. Mumbai is a good example.
Tarique,
FYI… Since you don’t seem to be accurate most of the time, let me explain:
Michael Jackson did NOT get acquitted from the pedophilia charge. The evidence against Michael Jackson was very strong.
(Shantanu, I am sorry for the graphic details but these are the facts that are relevant to the MJ case. Please edit them if inappropriate):
The 13-year-old child named Jordan Chandler told his father that Jackson had touched his penis. Jordan Chandler then told a psychiatrist and later police that he and Jackson had engaged in acts of kissing, masturbation and oral sex, as well as giving a detailed description of what he alleged were the singer’s genitals.)
Sure to face a conviction if the lawsuit progressed further, Michael Jackson used a favorite American trick of the wealthy in such weak lawsuits. He “settled out of court” with the Chandler family and their legal team in a civil lawsuit for $22 million.
In return for the $22 million, the Chandler family refused to continue with Police criminal proceedings. Jackson was never charged, and the state closed its criminal investigation, citing lack of evidence.
@ Reena: As you know, I am fairly indulgent with various comments here but I will second what Indian has said above (#21):
“Avoid using hurting words. There can be debate without dmeaning the person, faith and religion. Healthy discussion and debates attracts more (audience).”
Please understand that harsh words and aggressive arguments may shut people up but they will not be able to win their hearts and minds.
Our challenge is not to shut people up but to bring them on our side…in service of this great nation.
Hope you understand.
Thanks.
Dear Shantanu,
i would definitely agree with you about not making personal comments on any persons religious belief… but i have been following the entire debate and contributing too between tarique and reeena…..
i would agree with Reena (exept where she calls the Prophet names…) and contend that she has raised valid points in several of her posts…
tarique on the other hand has rendered mostly illogical facts and when challenged to the contrary shied away from further discussion and opened a new albeit more emotional front…..( refer my comments on meaning of islam and terrorism in south east asia)
i do agree with you that service to india is and should be our principal aim….but please do not vindicate the comments of an apologist like tarique just for the sake of winning him over….
Reena,
i will definitely support your viewpoints with facts but dont reduce this blog to a slanging match….you are and will argue much better on merits…
thanks…
Tarique
Yes I agree what you said, deep rooted hate. It will grow stronger and stronger if people like you give fair chances to such attacks and blasts. If they kill people what you expect us to do? Atleast dont expect us to be lover of your religion. See your standard not double I think triple or quadruple standadrd. Not accepting the truth is more henious than deep rooted hate. If that would have been the case Faithfreedom would not have flourished and existed.
See what Zardari is playing with people of India-They are not ready to accept the facts that terrorists were form Pakistan. They have doubt. As soon as they came to know
hat India is not taking any military actions They started showing their “AUKAT”. Are not they from low standard and shameless! What makes them this? Perhapes their books?
For Godsake we have one captured terrorists, otherwise they would not have ready to accept anything.
Tarique, I dont like to use these words atleast not against you but you have provoked me to speak. One cannot be a patriotic by keeping quadruple standard.
FYI-Islam is not growing faster and faster. It is AIDS which is growing faster and faster. I agree Reena!
See the link for yourself-http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/pakistan-refuses-to-hand-over-suspects/2008/12/03/1228257139413.html
Jai Hind!
Shantanu I agree, that it is we who elect politician. But when we already have elected govt., what are our expectation and their duty! First what ever information they are getting should be published in bold letters. In the above link they already accepted that Taj was also the one which may be targeted. Why public were not made aware of this? May be they were more worried about their business! High security could have made these attack foiled and enemies would have licked the soil.
Shantau
I have used the above words because I was angry the way Pakistan is behaving and ignoring the facts what terrorirts have done to us. I am not against any religion! but I am against the destructive public.
Jai Hind!
I guess it is time for Indian Media and Indians to always refer to Pakistan as “Americas Most Favoured Non-NATO Ally”. This will induce slow change in people’s perception about American Govt (for American and Indian citizens) and in return put pressure on the American Govt to atleast reduce their Billions of tax payers money as monetary gifts every year!
Dear Shantanu,
Going forward, I shall definitely respect your wishes as this is your blog. My words may have been sharp, but so is a surgeon’s scalpel.
What I have said is the sad reality. The bitter truth hurts and I had to say it. If someone is hurt by the truth and cannot logically defend his ideology, then he must learn to question the root of his irrational ideology.
I am not angry, but I have experienced lslam at its core (while living in the Middle-East). I have read and analysed the Qu’ran from cover-to-cover (unlike Tarique who is afraid to even to question it). And I am terribly afraid for the future of India.
Today, Hindus are massacred openly and we can do nothing about it while we are 80% of the population. With the high Muslim birth-rates and low Hindu birth-rates being the norm in India, imagine our plight when Hindus are just 40% or 50% of the India population. What can we do then?
Anti-Hindu propaganda has been waged for ages successfully. Let me give a good example. Did you know that the majority of the Thuggee followers were Muslim? You can get this information straight from the horse’s mouth – by analyzing the records and scholarly works of Sir William Sleeman (the British administrator of India who is best known for his suppression of the Thuggees)
Yet the propagandists who wrote books, compiled textbooks and made movies on this murderous group keep referring intentionally to the Thuggees as Hindus. My school textbooks mentioned the bloodthirsty Thuggees as Hindus who killed their victims for Goddess Kali, and I am sure your school textbooks stated the same misinformation.
Yet today, even with some diligent research, we find that the majority of the Thuggee followers were Muslim who killed their victims in Allah’s name.
I have discovered one important thing. Our enemies are well-trained, well-paid, full-time activists who conduct their propaganda as their full-time jobs – on internet forums, on TV, in the newspapers, in politics. How else do you think they are so successful?
Just look at the comments on various web-forums like Rediff, Indian newspapers etc. The same Jihadi propagandists are there throughout the day and night writing comments that are copy-pasted from Zakir Naik’s anti-Hindu propaganda websites. Just look at the thousands of eager Jihadi propagandists being trained (to trick the Hindus into complacency and to convert Hindus) in various “Zakir Naik Fan Clubs†in Orkut and by QTV.
====================
Dear Abhiroop,
I can factually prove what I wrote about the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH). I can prove it from the 3 Primary Islamic Scriptures – Qu’ran, Hadith & Sunnah.
Please read Dr. Ali Sina’s well-researched article on this subject: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm
Can Tarique-bhai prove me wrong?
Dear tarique,
In my article I have never claimed to be a scholar. However being born and brought up in an Islamic family i did have to learn Arabic and Persian besides Urdu. This gave me an edge of understanding what your Mulim historians wrote in their native labguages at the time of the Indian inquisition. I can understand that you are hurt. However is you are really smart you would rather, try and read the books whose authors I have mentioned. You can get these books in some places in India, especially if you go to the Jama Masjid area of Delhi or the Ahle HAdees office they wil guide you to these books. The english translations of these books are also available. However since they have been translated by Non_ Mulim authors, you will rather not belivee them. So my advice to you is that you go and get a few of those books and read for yourself. Jus beacuse a few people convert to a religious philosophy does not mean it is neccesarrily correct. So rather than indulge in logical fallacies in your arguments you should try and read history written by Muslims who came conquered India and lay the beautiful nation waste.While I dont believe that there should be conflicts between Hindus and Muslims the real history has to be told. The authors you spoke of were politically correct and anot factually correct people. People who report things as people like to hear them become sucessesful and hence you get the chance to quote them…..
Reena,
What you said makes absolute sense and you need not be apologetic.
I dont understand this attitude when anyone asks an Islamic fundamentalist like tarique an uncomfortable question, then he or she is lectured to tone down.
This is exactly the problem with Hindu psyche on which vuruses like tarique thrive.
after following this debate and several more on thie site, if at all some one needs to be ashamed its this rabid muslim mullah tariue and his cronies.
Reens Singh, you have raised very valid wonderful queries which will not elicit answers becos we all know the answers to these questions. the muslim terrorists will not answer these questions so will try and hijack the topic elsewhere
narayan rane says that he knows the names of politicians who helped the terrorists with logistics to attack mumbai . he furthur goes on to say he will expose things when the right time arrives .now,where are all the angry mumbaikars and why are these ‘angry young men’ not taking narayan rane by the scruff of his neck and questioning him ? if narayan rane knows why is he keeping his mouth shut ? what is the RAW ,IB,CBI,CID doing after hearing his statement ?
can ibrahim lone with his vast knowledge of history highlight the vast destruction of hindu temple ruins by buddhist invaders in the 12th century in cambodia in angkor wat .what was the reason for these buddhist khmer invaders to destroy a hindu monumental temple and replace it with a buddhist place of worship ? will anyone highlight me with the number of ancient hindu temples of lord rama ,vishnu,shiva and ganesha destroyed by sinhalese buddhists and for what reasons ?thousands of hindu temples in sri lanka have been replaced by buddhist temples with the help of sinhalese archeologists who have indulged in mass genocide of hindus and their ancient places of worship.the buddhist priests in sri lanka have alwas turned a blind eye to rapes of hindu women by sinhalese army here .the buddhist monks many times lead a band of followers on their hindu temple attak missions over here.
@ April: Pl. cite references. I would like to dig deeper into this. I will do my own search on the net too.
Not sure (a) why you are asking this question on this thread and (b) what has Ibrahim’s remarks got to do with this?
See also Rishi’s comment on Why LTTE is not a Hindu group which has some interesting information
***
All: This discussion is getting dangerously off-topic. A gentle request: Pl. limit your comments on this thread to Obama and the Pakistan connection. Thanks.
“april” sure writes just like “tarique”.
Since when did “april” and “elisa” get interested into Hinduism or Islam?
I would sure like to see Tarique here in the blog. Tarique its a debate and we said what we felt at the time of Mumbai attack. Nothing was against you it was all against the scripture that propogates violence.
“april”(“tarique”) is ticked off with Ibrahim Lone for presenting the facts.
Elisa, April
Seems you know more about the destruction of Hindu temples than I do. I have until now limited myself to studying the destruction and havoc created by the Barbaric Hordes of the Sons of Allah, who destroyed this beautiful country of mine. I will try to however find out about the incidents that you have mentioned. Nevertheless if what you are saying is not merely gobbledygook, I would like to tell you something. There have been crazy people in every culture and civilization. However what separates the warriors of Allah is that their hatred is inspired by the Quran. Buddha in his teachings did not tell people to burn or destroy something. Buddhism is an otherworldly religion which believes that life is sacred and all forms of violence are shunned according to the Buddhists doctrine. Islam on the other hand encourages its followers to commit gruesome acts of terror against Humanity. Muhammad was the first iconoclast in the history of Islam. Like I said before tyrants and bigots come and go, however their philosophy dies with them. Muhammad left behind a philosophy of hatred and his followers are still here. We know them as Muslims. So if a Buddhist does something like what you said, he is not following the teachings of his religion, while a Muslim is exactly following his religion when he carries out gruesome acts.
Hello Ibrahim Lone
I have one question for you. Shahrukh Khan of India says. Nowhere in kooran it says kill other and all about paradise stories is false. He say there are 2 Kooran one from Allha and one from mullha. So as per him its mullha’s kooran who is destructive. What is your take?.
Hope moderator of this site dont mind! as he has warning set above but I am curious to know about it and you are the best person to ask about it. You can give your reply on another topic on this site where it says reformation in Islam.
Jai Hind!
@Ibrahim Lone
Please give your reply with moderate note as our moderator is strict about defaming any religion but he too will like if debate is within the limit. Sorry to ask you abut that. But SRK has developed curiosity in me by his statement.
Jai Hind!
Guys,
I am a recent reader here (stumbled onto your blog after the Mumbai attacks). I feel Shah Rukh Khan is trying to justify his belief in a bankrupt ideology by coming up with lies & illogical excuses. SRK is doing this more to convince himself than convince others.
If only SRK learns to read and understand Arabic (which he does not know one bit), then he can read the koran. He will be forced to admit that allah’s koran and mullah’s koran are identical. But I think that SRK does not have the courage to face reality. So he will keep fooling himself and fooling others, by not reading the koran. So, SRK will pretending to himself (and the world) that all is fine and dandy.
I am very eager to hear Ibrahim Lone’s views on SRK’s statements. I salute Ibrahim for speaking the blunt truth. Like Ibrahim, I too left Islam about 3 years ago – after a lot of initial denial, careful deliberation and difficult introspection. It finally dawned on me.
I am a practising Hindu now. So I definitely believe in God (ishwar), but I don’t believe in allah. So I am happy as leaving Islam does not mean automatically becoming an atheist (which is hard for me).
I am not afraid of any repurcussions, threats or fear of imaginary things (allah’s wrath/hell-fire punishments.. hehehe) etc. You can read my personal testimonial here (and Mr.Ali Sina’s replies to many of my points):
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/AasmaRiaz51111.htm
cheers !!!
Aasma Riaz
From the most beautiful city in India (C-H-A-N-D-I-G-A-R-H …yaaay). 🙂
*** Note by Moderator ***
Aasma: I have not seen you before on this blog. So, welcome and we look forward to seeing more of you here. I would encourage you to read this brief note on my comment policy, when you have a minute.
I did receive all your multiple comments…Sorry they were stuck in the moderation queue.
Aasma Riaz
Thank you very much for your comment and your faith in Ishwar.
I am confuse wih SRK’s comment on CNN IBN. I will look forward for Ibrahim Lone’s views too. Because, I have respect for SRK as a citizen of India as well as he is celebrity so cannot be fooling around. But I am still confused why people who believes that their book has some offending writings against other religion and community are not coming out in front of SRK and show him. Tell him in front of him and the media that what he said is not correct and he is lying. I am not saying that demeaning way but atleast in some other form his views should be opposed and objected, if he is wrong. Let him get busy in correcting and explaining what he said. Show him all that verses and hadith(sorry for spellings). This is the right time to educate public.
Jai Hind!
Aasma You testimony is really touchy. Any sensitive person will do the same what you did.
Jai Hind!
I usually don’t like to go around blogs spamming them, however since you have raised the Question of Shahrukh Khan I would gladly give my comments on this subject. First of all Mr.Khan is an actor who has to sell his movies. He has to endear himself to all the communities for this purpose. He cannot been seen siding with the Muslims or the Hindus or any one else. Understanding the facts that this guy is an extremely manipulative individual he managed to appease the Hindus without disheartening the Muslims. If we really read his statements we will find that he has said a lot without meaning anything. If he says that he knows more Islam than the Ullema then he has to prove his credentials for making this statement.The truth is that people like SRK, Shabana and a few others are what we know as Non-Practising pseudo secular Muslim Imposers. A Muslims who claims to be a secular is either lying to himself or to the people at large. If a Muslim claims that he believes in Democracy and secularism that automatically implies that he either does not believe in the Sharia or he holds it second to Secular principles. According to most Fatwas Secularism and Democracy is like a Religion which if followed by any one is basically committing Shirk(which is the worst sin according to Islam) which is an abomination in the eyes of Allah. Now which category SRK belongs to is hard to tell. Either ways his statements should not be given any consideration as he will say what is necessary for his own survival. Personally I can bet that SRK has not even heard the names of Scholars like Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Muslim, Dawood, etc. So relax and forget about this guy.
Ibrahim: Thanks for the comment and sharing your thoughts.
All: Pl. carry the discussion re. SRK on one of these two threads:
SRK: “Jihad” – a small little word
or
SRK in a muddle trying to explain Shoaib
@Ibrahin
Than it means this non-practising, pseudo secular muslims are more dangerous than practising muslims. They contribute more in misguiding innocents, and non-muslim public.
Lets ask SRk a question How come allha’s Quran has taken back seat if it happenes to be the words of Allha the God, or prophet as he said. Why do they dont believe in that words of Allha? Are they fake muslims?. And why mullha’s Islam is catching more eyes than allhas islam.
Jai Hind!
It is nuts to complain that a Columbia student went to Pakistan in the 80s. I was a Columbia student in the mid-60s and I got a visa to go to Pakistan. As it happens I went to other Muslim countries: Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Jordan. Lebanon and Turkey too, all by car. Then, some years later I became a diplomat and was assigned to a couple of Muslim countries. Obama is a born-again Christian. Is every Christian who goes to a Muslim country — or to Bethlehem — a danger to US (and Indian) society? Bullfeathers.
Hey Bhagwan, what a conspiracy against us peace loving Hindus! Obama, if you listened to the early parts of the campaign, has definite Muslim links. The Khmer and Sinhala Buddhists, the Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims, the Christian missionaries, the Commies.. enemies everywhere. We missed the Jews and the Parsis.
Let us attack them one by one.
So the Quran has quite a lot of instructions for jihad and destruction and killing of Kaffirs? Our greatest Hindu festivals are about killing Mahishasura, Narakasura,Shumbha-Nishumbha, Ravana (pillage of Lanka a fringe benefit). Shiva is also known as Tripurantaka. The Bhagavat Gita is a set of discourses to encourage a conscience-stricken man to kill his cousins, uncles and gurus. Has this made us all terrorists? Or is it the lack of opportunity that is holding us back? No Saudi backing, no CIA/Special Forces trainers?
Good thing the Al Qaeda is illiterate, otherwise they would have made the Gita required reading. After all, Nainam Chindanthi Shashtrani is a much better and more plausible promise than 72 virgins.
Scriptures are a pile of material accumulated over the ages. What we pick up is what matters. What we make of it is what matters. Har Har Mahadev and Allahu Akbar can mean quite a lot of things – it depends on how the words are uttered.
Stop looking for scriptural reasons to hate. Hate the Muslims for being dirty, unwashed, their funny clothes,their henna-died beards, their beef-eating, their being “Babar ke aulad”.. for being Muslim. It is not so difficult. I can give you hundreds of visceral reasons. Have a ball!
@ against Jayadevan
I am not sure what he wants to say here.Is he wants to say that
“We can commit all the crime and get away by showing the scriptures from books.â€
Or
“We can not ask other people for what could be the motive behind the crime.â€
@ support Jayadevan
Just wanted to remind myself that
“If it is the hate against somebody which unites us, then please don’t be unitedâ€
“A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.â€
So be united and create a strong civilization with our behaviour. U can call it Bharatiy(ism), Indian(ism), Hindu(ism).
Jai Hind.
Rakesh,
I have been in this world for 52 years now and the only thing I myself am sure about is that the extent of my ignorance is infinite.
Maybe I was trying to say that the world is to each of us a mirror, showing us what we look for. Our lifespan is limited, why waste this in hating our brethren? I am a quite violent and vindictive person myself, but I can understand when Gandhi says, “An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind”.
Irrational fear and the need to protect our dear ones is what causes violence. We would like to nip the danger in the bud. If that means killing a few cockroaches, or torching our neighbour, so be it. The banality of murder is what horrifies me. I remember photographs of people marching out to commit massacres in Assam – axe in one hand, tiffin-carrier in the other. Some mother or wife would have filled the dabba, so her son or husband should not feel hungry killing other wives and mothers and children.
Keep asking questions. For a Hindu, the search itself is the goal. God bless you.
@Jayadevan
Well said!
Though I am younger to you, many such photographs and experiences comes to my mind too. But I believe that one must do best that no one should go through what we have gone through. Or we could become insensitive towards what is happening around the world and cannot protect the innocents. We know that human cannot get rid of all problems. One evil will go and another will pop up. The pen is mightier than the sword. Use it! thats what I believe.
In my small little way I have my campaign – killing and violence will never go from the society till human stops killing animals for eating. With due respect – I said this because I read in your above comment concern regarding violence and killing in the society. Today many may not find this serious but tomorrow one may find strong solution in it. The Great Ashoka too inscribed in the stone that in his state animal should not be killed for food.
Jai hind!
Wish you all the best in your campaign, brother. But, beware! Compassion is a powerful key! It opens many hidden chambers of the heart and makes you a much better person than you ever thought you would be.
@ Jayadevan
Thank you very much for your best wishes.
Compassion is powerful key I fully agree with you. What is the solution where chambers of heart full of compassion getting killed and its too late where hidden chambers of heart gets open.
Jai Hind!