Open Thread on Temple Wealth & Treasures of Sree Padmanabha
Dear Friends: This is a short and hurried post to trigger a discussion on the treasures that have been discovered in the vaults of the Sree PadmanabhaSwamy temple in Thiruvananthapuram…It is mainly a compilation of comments and some thought-provoking(I hope) questions…Please do share your thoughts and contribute.
Will the counsel for petitioner who insisted temple was “public property†please clarify their stance on Waqf land – large enough to make it the 3rd largest land-holder in India and Church estates – which constitute the largest ownership of non-agricultural land in India?
In response to ShashiTharoor’s tweet:
…let it be used for whatever the temple authorities (&the Supreme Court) decide
a question posed by Varnam: Who is SC to decide on pvt wealth?
…and as treasures tumble out of the vaults of the Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple, I wonder if “Preservation” & “Safeguarding” will be used as excuses to bring the sacred place under government control? While on this matter, pl read Sanjeev Nayyar’s excellent compilation on “Why should Temples Collections be controlled by Government?”
Next, some (edited) responses from the facebook page:
Prashanth: ..i would say temple trusts formed by the community is better…
Tejas Canchi: ..The treasure is of the deity, temple and people.
Saggi Rex: I wonder and suspect of the action by govt wrt WAQF property and TEMPLE property.
Prahalad Appaji: …it’s high time HADS heeded to Radha Rajan’s advise
Sandeep Shelke: I’m afraid that this all will land up in govt coffers.
Unni Pillai: I really wonder if the Indian Pseudo Secular government and Supreme court would show such enthusiasm to go after Church or Mosque assets.
Thankfully the Government of Kerala has so far maintained a stance that is sound on reason:
P. T. Chacko, the spokesman for the chief minister of Kerala, Oommen Chandy. Mr. Chacko said Kerala would not seek control of the temple or its treasure, a step that some activists have recommended. “The treasure is donated to the temple from disciples and believers; it’s the property of the temple,†he said. “It has nothing to do with the state.â€
Finally a front-page banner headline from yesterday’s DNA: “Sri Padmanabhaswamy: The Lord of the rings, necklaces and taxes” with a sub-title (in the print edition) that exposes the underlying sentiment of the piece. It reads “The Lord Padmanabha temple got its wealth not just from royal donations but also from brutal taxes, such as the ‘breast tax’ levied by the Travancore kings”. The report concludes with these lines: “While there’s no disupting the fact that the Travancore kings were zealous custodians of the deity’s wealth, it is undeniable that the loot is coloured not just be faith, but also by defeats, fears, deaths, conqeusts and atonements”
I wonder if the author or DNA would ever write a report or dig into how much wealth was taken out of India by Islamic invaders and British colonialists and how that “loot is coloured not just be faith, but also by defeats, fears, deaths, conquests..” I am certainly not holding my breath..but here is a quote that might give you some indication:
Many institutions have justifiably disappeared into the anonymity of history. But in a country like Britain that is so drenched in the culture of heritage, the public invisibility of the East India Company is suspicious. Perhaps a single Hindi word can now help to explain this selective memory, this very British reticence: loot.
And we have not even started on the Islamic invasions and the accompanying loot and plunder…
Related Posts: Loot – in search of East India Co. (excerpts), Economic Exploitation and the Drain of Wealth during British “Rajâ€. Additional Reference: Hindu Temples: What happened to them? by Sitaram Goel.
P.S. I need some one to helo me analyse and summarise the arguments made in Sanjeev Nayyar’s excellent compilation on Temple Wealth referred above. Any volunteers? If you can help, pl leave a comment below or email me. Thanks
Update: Also read “Pseudo-Secularism” at its best?  and On Temples, some little known facts & a story of “secular†loot
Pls read these articles.
1) “Do the treasures belong to the temple?”(http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/op-ed/do-the-treasures-belong-to-the-temple/292407.html )-R Nagaswamy
2) “God’s own greedy politicians”(http://expressbuzz.com/opinion/op-ed/god's-own-greedy-politicians/292278.htm) -M G S Narayanan
“Fortunately, Travancore was one of the enlightened native states which kept administrative records very systematically and preserved them with greatcare. Documents from the 16th century onwards are available. Some years ago when this writer was nominated as chairman of the State Archives Advisory Council it was noticed that these administrative records numbered about one crore of palm leaf bundles.
The documents of the temple featuring routine payments, land revenue from temple properties, donations, offerings of gold and ornaments in the form of Prayaschitta or atonement, sales of prasadam etc, have been published under the title of Matilakam Granthavari. Great poet and scholar Ulloor S Parameswara Ayyar, who was also dewan peshkar under the monarchy of Travancore, edited and published several volumes of archival documents including a volume of records of Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple.
The Travancore State Manual of 1906 by Nagam Ayya contains the following brief account:
‘The temple is under the management of a committee known as Ettarayogam composed of eight Brahmin janmis with one vote each and the Maharaja who has but half a vote. It enjoys land revenue of more than Rs 75,000 a year, and is absolutely independent of the sirkar. The temple coffers are supposed to contain large quantities of money, gold, jewels and precious stones – the offerings of ages.’ (vol. 1, page 84)
There is no mix up in the records between state revenues and the temple revenue because the temple possessed a separate administrative set up under the committee. The maharajas also donated part of the booty acquired as a result of military operations to Padmanabha. This was a traditional practice in the middle ages”
Establish HNF (Hindu National Fund) on the lines of JNF (Jewish National Fund) in Israel.
Thanks S…Am posting some excerpts from the first link too..FromDo the treasures belong to the temple? by R Nagaswamy:
..The main question that has escaped the debaters is to whom were these offerings made? There is no doubt that these were devout offerings to Lord Padmanabha. We have tens of thousands of written records by way of inscriptions spread all over the country from early historical times to modern times which show that such offerings were made to the God and not to the temple. From the second century BC to the modern times the offerings were recorded to have been made to the deity. In the Pallava inscriptions assignable to 3rd or 4th century we find specific mention that the gifts were made to the deity. There are many inscriptions from Kerala almost from 9th century onwards recording gifts to the deities.
…Another curious suggestion is that they should be arranged in a museum for the people to see. This question also came up in the London High Court in which I appeared as a witness. The judge asked me the question “Suppose I give you back this Nataraja would you like to have it in the temple or in museum, where visitors could see? And the judge wanted me to answer as an archaeologist and not as a devout Hindu. I answered it must be back in the temple. “Why?†asked the judge.
I replied that the main intention of the donor was not to make it an exhibit in a museum, but it was a pious religious gift with many sacred acts associated with it, many other associated activities like music.
The judge agreed with me and mentioning it ordered the return of the image to the temple. If a foreign court could respect the piety and sentiments on scientific lines and return to the temple there is no reason why India should respond to these self-styled historians. Let us not forget that the priceless treasures in Indian museums are stored as junk with no proper preservation.
Then the question arises who will administer these articles of wealth. Certainly not the state. First of all it is secular and secondly we know in the past few decades what has happened to the valuable treasures. The administration has to be in the hands of legally eligible to be the trustees as per the existing Acts. The Travancore royal families who have saved these wealth for Lord Padmanabha all these centuries should continue as the chief trustees with whatever safeguards required for preventing misuse. The state government quite rightly has taken the stand the status quo will continue and we are also happy that the learned judges of the Supreme Court have ordered what should be done.
The author is Former Director of Archaeology, Tamil Nadu.
Hi,
I am from Europe,
I know that 90 % of Indian MLA and others in this leaque are crimal politicians so guard this so that these guys do not run away with it like now the police and military has taken hostage of the people and there freedom fight as in Egypte en do not forget that people like Anna Hazare en Baba Ramdew’s effort is to get the nation corruption free.
Regards Stuart
the temple wealth is indeed so huge that no one will want to let it go. with the greedy eyes of our leaders on this wealth, they can turn and twist any damn law. the wealth rightfully belongs to the temple management and it is solely their decision to do what ever they wish. everyone else, be it the supreme court of India can just act as advisers. making a museum of it will also not be appropriate. as we all saw to what happened to the noble prize of rabindranath tagore which was also put up for exhibit. if the intention of the person who stored this wealth was to exhibit then he would not have hid this in the first place. moreover such a huge amount is not at all safe even if any number of people have to guard it by any technology. you never know who has what intentions.
Although the temple has kept records for many centuries but our government machinery is such that if they want to acquire the wealth they can go upto any extent. as we have already seen in case of anna and ramdev wherein the government put all machinery behind them, trying to find something in their organization, only when they stood up against them. if the government knew something to be fishy with anna’s organization or ramdev’s wealth then why dint they act before their movement began. the point here is if the government has any eye on it then god save the temple from the government.
but it is also a matter of understanding that such huge amount can be utilized for any good cause. so just storing it is also not a wise step. however it is solely upto the temple administration to do what and how. and NO-ONE has any right to force things to them.
The present minority led dispensation ruling Kerala is a blessing in disguise insofar as the wealth of Sree Padmanabha is concerned.
A leader of the majority community would have tried to cover himself in foolish glory by the simple expedient of assuming government control and squandering the wealth of the temple on misbegotten initiatives.The stance taken by the state Government is indeed highly moral and apt.
After the din and the dust has settled down , serious recommendations should be sought from a wide spectrum of opinion, always keeping in mind that they can only be mere recommendations , and subject ever to the fiduciary proprieties binding the trustees of Lord Padmanabha’s wealth,and in keeping with Hindu sensitivities and the laws of the land.
The wealth of Sree Padmanabha may seem to be a great deal in the context of the relative poverty of present day India , but the day is not far off when the wealth and prosperity of India will again be regained ,at which time these priceless antique treasures will be seen as proof of our past civilizational prosperity barring an unfortunate millennium in between when we fell prey to marauders and fifth columnists.
Thanks for the quintessential summary. What we know now is that the temple’s assets have remained unplundered. Let me offer two responsible factors:
1) Until 1947: Neither the Moghuls nor Tippu (who came dangerously close!) could raid Travancore (whether due to geography, the prowess of the Travancore army, or sheer luck)
2) After 1947: The temple being under the Travancore royals’ Trust. Not being under the State controlled ‘Devaswom Board’ (whose directors included not only atheist communists but also corrupt Hindus) saved the assets.
The petition’s original point was that the royals can’t be trusted and the State should take custody.
With the opening of the vaults, it is proven that the royals did their job very well in preserving the assets. About the State’s capability to do anything comparable, there is hardly any convincing evidence.
I have full faith in India’s Supreme Court and that the right Orders will definitely come out of this.
Excerpts from The Supreme Court as Supreme Vandal by Radha Rajan:
…When a temple is built in accordance with Agama the entire temple and all its contents belong to the presiding deity and are inviolable. Every grain of sand, every drop of water, the temple pond, the garden, the trees, every stone, every blade of grass belongs to the deity and that is why no bhakta will take away anything from the temple except that which has been offered to him as prasad.
How can the underground vaults of the Sree Ananathapadmanabhaswamy temple be an exception? Or the wealth of the Tirupathi temple, or the wealth of Tamil Nadu’s temples?
Even the temple elephant holds the exalted position of a little god. If the elephant is male, he will bear the same name as the deity and if the elephant is female she will bear the name of the consort of the presiding deity.
This extraordinary discipline cannot be undermined by India’s perverted ‘secular’ polity or by the judges of our High Courts and the Supreme Court.
It is an article of every Hindu’s deep-rooted civilizational values that there is nothing within a temple which is not sacred, which does not belong to the deity and which is not the deity itself. Even structural changes to the temple, however small may therefore not be undertaken without consulting our acharyas, agama scholars and important bhaktas who serve the deity and temple.
In this case the Supreme Court, had there been even an iota of good intention in its motives, ought to have sought the advice and views of the incumbent king of the Travancore royal family whose self-definition is Padmanabhadasa or First Servant of the Bhagwan and who is the traditional custodian of the temple and the Bhagwan’s trustee before ordering the vaults to be opened.
Judges RV Raveendran and AK Patnaik of the Supreme Court who ordered the vaults to be opened thumbed their noses at temple tradition, disregarded the call of dharma and disrespected Hindu sensitivities. The King of Travancore (it is not for Gandhi, Nehru or upstart inheritors of their political mantle to de-legitimise Hindu kings and kingdoms) was not consulted nor were his views solicited or respected.
It is extremely doubtful if these judges or any other judge in the country would have dared to order the vaults of any insignificant church or mosque to be so opened; forget Santhome Cathedral or the Jamma Masjid.
…
To put it bluntly, the vaults of the temple and the contents of the vaults are not separate from Bhagwan Ananthapadmanabhaswamy. When the Supreme Court ordered the vaults to be broken open, this was akin to the judiciary laying its irreverend and unclean hands on the Bhagwan himself and to put it crassly, molesting him, mauling him, defiling him. This violation of the sanctity of the temple and the Bhagwan constitutes mahapaapa.
…
The rape of the Tiruvananthapuram temple has proved that anyone, just anyone can go to our courts and make any silly complaint, any outrageous demand about Hindu temples and if the judges see a grand opportunity to grandstand their secular credentials, they will jump into the case both feet first, sometimes even take suomotu notice of something said here or written there. How else can we explain –
· The continuing defilement of Tirupathi under the nose of the judiciary (http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1423&Itemid=71)
· The continuing plunder and loot of Tamil Nadu’s temples under the nose of the judiciary
· Two Christian judges, Justices Dinakaran and Ashok Kumar ordering in February 2005 removal of all encroachments knowing full well that only Hindu temples would suffer most damage. In fact over 250 street temples were demolished by Jayalalithaa in Madurai, Tiruchy and Kanyakumari alone
· The Gujarat High Court’s anti-Hindu activism when it took suo motu notice of a newspaper report in 2006 which said a total of 1200 Hindu temples were encroachments on the streets of Gujarat and ordered their demolition
· The Allahabad High Court delivering an order which called for mutilating the Ramjanmabhumi simply to satisfy the judges’ secular itch.
· The incumbent Chief Justice of the Madras High Court making a thoroughly unacceptable and even nasty observation about Hindu street temples
· Another judge in the Madras High Court remarking sarcastically that it is easier to remove fish-stalls than it is to remove Hindu temples
There are boundaries which the courts and judges cannot breach and places where they are not welcome; the family and Hindu temples being two such places. The judiciary obviouly thinks otherwise and has committed the unpardonable offence of molesting the Sree Ananthapadmanabhaswamy Temple.
The writer is willing to wager her Gucci shoes and Givenchy perfume that not a single Hindu bhakta would have been surprised at the wealth that was found in the vaults and not a single Hindu bhakta would have entertained a single unworthy thought about it. Hindus know their temples have always been prosperous. That’s why we had hordes of European Christian and Muslim invaders, freebooters, adventurists and mercenaries carting away Hindu wealth in ship loads, plane loads and even in their shoe box.
Dear all,
Is the temple wealth huge. Think about it. The wealth was built over a long period – anywhere from 500 – 1000 years. If the wealth is estimated at rs. 100,000 crores it would only fund:
1. 5 years of DMK rule in TN.
2. 2.5 years of NREGA.
3. Less than an year of petroleum product subsidy.
could give many such examples but the point that i wissh to make is that profligate politicians / opinion leaders are eyeing the treasure for short term gains.
As Rahul Eshwar repeatedly said on TV, the treasure is not wealth i.e. ready money. it is all gold and precious stones. unless they are sold it cannot be used for purposes claimed. The country is already reeling under inflation which is essentially because of too much money chasing too little products. NREGA is one major source of unproductive cash flowing into the economy pushing prices up.
None of those advocating the use of the treasure for *Public Welfare* are talking of concrete programs. Can they please come out with some clear programs on how they propose to solve say the problem of scarcity of food at the same time when food grains are rotting in ware houses using this money.
Temple money can easily be squandered as this link details. Because of an absence of a suitable apex Hindu organisation, the treasure is quite likely to end up in wrong places. I can understand the personal efforts of some individuals but the key to a proper handling of such an issue is the existence of an organisation. Unfortunately, I don’t really understand what that organisation is/could be.
We need a series of exemplary Orders from the Supreme Court which uphold and affirm
1) right to private property — even for a deity who is defined as a “Legal Person”
and
2) right to practise one’s faith (and all the faith’s tenets, without which, what is a faith?) as long as it does not rob others of their rights
A Hindu NGO should come forward to cement the legal basis.
Those who don’t take steps to protect their liberties, stand to lose those liberties.
May I add to the above,
3) right to privacy for private persons.
It is not only Tata who has a right to privacy. The Legal Person, the deity Ananta Padmanabha as well. There is a right to be left alone, with qualifiers of course.
Of course, public persons (public servants included) have invoked this more than as necessary for e.g. KG Balakrishnan did not want his assets disclosed on this basis.
(Privacy is very skewed in India. The private person is denied every bit while the Tata’s and KGB’s cry out that they are being violated. The PAN card prints my signature and all details on it and everyone wants your PAN number. And any petty government officer is all powerful to find the rest of your details given your PAN number, and even the petty officer’s accesses are assumed to be benign and not logged or traced so that you can summon such access through an order or RTI request. Government cannot be held liable for any privacy breaches even if govt’s or its agents’ involvement can be proven. Read up the upcoming privacy act. It is really a 3rd world situation for a supposedly IT savvy country, whew, I got carried away).
With the revelation of the Wealth of Ananta Padma Nabha Swami’s Wealth, The Reactions :
1. By the Souls of Ghajni & Ghori : How could we missed this in our plundering of Hindu Wealth ???!!!
2. By the British : We could not have satisfied with Kohinoor & Peacock Throne and could have gone further !!!???
3. Neo Political Communists & LDF Members and Muslim Parties : This is a Wealth, which should be used to the benefit of Common People. Naturally then we can have our hands on it. That would benefit us in garnering and using it to our Political Common(Wealth) power games.
4. The Swiss and other Wealth Storage Heavens of the World : This is a very Happy moment for us. All this wealth will definitely come to us only at the end !!!???
and
then the most tolerant ‘Common People” of India as a Whole : This is the Wealth of God and He only will take care of it. Believe in God !!!??? The good always prevail over the Crooks
My Guess of What Could be there in the un-opened sixth room with Naga Bandham :
1. The actual throne and / or the Raja Makutam or Kireetam of the Kings, who they might have thought , the Thugs should not have hands on it !!!
It is upto the Great Statistians of the Neo-Scintific World to extra polate and estimate the Indian Heritage :
” The Travancore (Thiruvancooru) Kingdom was relatively smaller compared to the earlier Dynasties of ancient Bharat. When the Wealth of such small dynasty was this much, then what could have been the magnitude of wealth of other relatively bigger dynasties, viz., Vijayanagar Empire, Pandya, Chola Magadha, Andhra, Avantika etc., dynasties of the Bharat , which had been looted by the Thugs and the like ???!!!”
The Common Man of this Country should think !!!???
Pl do read: Hostages of fortune: Hindu deities and their wealth by George Augustine..
I hope to post excerpts later.
All the funds of the temple should be supplemented by Wakf and church funds and then utilized to root out terrorism from the country.
Hi Shantanu,
It is not just Padmanabhaswamy temple that holds this huge wealth. There are many other temples in Kerala and Tamilnadu that may contain huge wealth. Now that the world’s attention has been diverted towards the temples of TN and Kerala will the Supreme Court step in to make and inventory of the assets of all functioning and non-functioning temples in the South and take steps to protect them?
Mr.B.Jeyamohan is a well known Tamil writer from Nagarkoil who has written several novels based on the history of TN and Kerala. He makes the following points in his blog in response to queries from readers:
Cant someone or group of people appeal to the supreme court for an inquiry & protection of these temples – and action against those who indulged in looting ? It would seem that if the Supreme court had no issues of locus standii in entertaining the T P Sundararajan petition on Sree Padmanabhaswant temple it should not have any problems with other people appealing for protection of other Hindu temples elsewhere.
@Shaan: Thanks for the link…Very interesting indeed..
@Moonclan: Not sure if anyone else is attempting this in other courts but I will try and find out..
Please see this news –
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/A-minor-fire-was-reported-in-a-handicrafts-shop-near-the-sree-padmanabha-swamy-temple-today-evening-The-cause-of-the-blaze-was-not-yet-known/articleshow/9434015.cms
Though initially Media ( quoting fire personnel) cited ‘short circuit’ as the reason ,Electricity board officials however rejected this after their investigation.
District collector , after enquiry, submitted a report to government saying the reason for fire as ‘Suspicious’ and recommended a detailed enquiry.
It seems some ‘forces’ really want to see the government take over of the temple / or its wealth.
Excerpts from On the Thiruvananthapuram treasure by Nitin:
…I do not agree with those who argue that the Thiruvananthapuram treasure must be used for ‘the social good’. The treasure is the property of the Temple or the royal family. Other than through normal taxation, government cannot claim it.
I’d qualify this: if it is so determined that it contains what can be considered as national and civilisational heritage, the State has grounds to intervene so that it is preserved for future generations. This need not mean acquisition, but can mean a set of rules that bind the owner to treat the property in certain ways.
Therefore, there is no case to monetise the wealth and treat it as a budgetary resource. The philosophical reason is that it is an inter-generational asset. We can’t break down the Taj Mahal and use the marble to construct low-cost housing for the poor.
and from Marxists and Museums by Varnam:
…
One point is missing in this debate: religion. The artifacts found in the cellars were offerings made to Sree Padmanabhaswamy by devotees and there is no reason to detach it and place it in a secular setting. In this Op-Ed piece P. Parameshwaran looks into why communists are obsessed with turning devotional items into museum pieces and where it has led them.
…
This is neither a new phenomenon nor something peculiar to Kerala or Sree Padmanabhaswamy temple. This is inherent in the communist psyche all over the world. They have put in practice this ideology which prescribes places of worship and religious and devotional items to be exhibited as artefacts in museums. This has happened in the Soviet Union and communist China (both in the mainland and in Tibet). But, in the twists and turns of history in the communist countries the entire process has been since reversed and instead of sacred places turning into museums the party itself has become a big museum, while temples and churches have emerged more powerful than ever.[Marxists as museum pieces via Michel Danino]
A shocking excerpt from Should the riches of a temple be used for secular purpose? by Vivek Gumaste, Jul 17, 2011:
Below is a limited but telling list of some high profile instances of chicanery that demonstrate the extent and scope of wrongdoing via the HRCE Act:
– Hindu temples are compelled to contribute 5% of their income to a government controlled discretionary Common Pool Fund.
– In 1997, the Karnataka government exacted Rs 52 crore from Hindu temples but returned only Rs 17 crore; Rs 12 crore were allocated to madrassas and churches and Rs 23 crore were utilized for government programs. The figures for subsequent years till 2002 indicate a similar or even worse disparity.
– In AP, the state government has not denied the charge of appropriating 85% of TTD’s (Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams) annual revenue of over Rs 3100 crores.
– Probing an allegation of inappropriate donations made to NGO’s by the Shree Siddhivinayak Temple in Mumbai, Justice Tipnis concluded: ”… there is no method or principle followed for particular institutions. The only criteria for selection was recommendation or reference by trustees or the minister or a political heavy-weight, generally belonging to ruling party.”
– In 2010, the Orissa government sold 500 acres belonging to the Jagannath Puri temple at a throw away price of 1 lakh per acre to the Vedanta foundation. Its efforts to sell another 1000 acres were aborted by the High Court.
– In the 1980s, the then Kerala chief minister K Karunakaran ordered the Guruvayur Temple to deposit Rs 10 crore with the state treasury to offset a government deficit. Whether this money was ever returned or not is uncertain. In addition, the temple’s land holdings were decimated from 13000 acres to 230 acres by the Land reforms Act which conveniently excluded non-Hindu institutions.
Placing this here for the record: Sri Padmanabhaswamy Temple Treasure: The Inside Story” by Choodie Shivaram, 15th May ’13
Worrying excerpt from RBI plans to request Tirupati, Shirdi shrines to sell their gold pile to rescue Re fall, by Shilpy Sinha, ET Bureau Aug 31, 2013:
..
…The Reserve Bank of India, which has been making gold imports more difficult through a series of restrictions, is discussing with banks on how to convince temple trusts to deposit their hoard of idle jewellery that could be converted into bullion, said two bankers familiar with the matter.
…
“The finance minister and RBI governor should jointly â€and immediately†approach the trustees of Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams (TTD),” said Jamal Mecklai, chief executive of Mecklai Financial. “Three of these (trustees) are state government appointees, and given the current political dispensation this is a distinct advantage. They should, of course, offer prayers. That will be an opportunity for the hugely rich trusts to make additional amounts of money.”
Tirupati is among the world’s richest temples with an estimated gold hoard of about 1,000 tonnes, nearly double of India’s estimated imports this year. The country, as a whole, is estimated to have a gold stock of 18,000-30,000 tonnes. ..