On Halal Foods and Stealth Islamization…
in Londonistan and elsewhere...
This thread was triggered by a startling report in the Daily Mail published on Sunday. Titled “Britain goes halal…“, it mentioned how famous British institutions were regularly serving Halal meat without informing patrons, customers or the general public. Excerpts:
A Mail on Sunday investigation – which will alarm anyone concerned about animal cruelty – has revealed that schools, hospitals, pubs and famous sporting venues such as Ascot and Twickenham are controversially serving up meat slaughtered in accordance with strict Islamic law to unwitting members of the public.
All the beef, chicken and lamb sold to fans at Wembley has secretly been prepared in accordance with sharia law, while Cheltenham College, which boasts of its ‘strong Christian ethos’, is one of several top public schools which also serves halal chicken to pupils without informing them.
Even Britain’s biggest hotel and restaurant group Whitbread, which owns the Beefeater and Brewers Fayre chains, among many others, has admitted that more than three-quarters of its poultry is halal.
…
Animal welfare campaigners have long called for a ban on the traditional Islamic way of preparing meat – which involves killing animals by drawing a knife across their throats, without stunning them first – saying it is cruel and causes unnecessary pain.Sharia law expressly forbids knocking the animal out with a bolt gun, as is usual in British slaughterÂhouses. Instead, it must be sentient when its throat is cut, and the blood allowed to drip from the carcass while a religious phrase in praise of Allah is recited.
Even more surprising than the fact of serving Halal was the lame excuse offered by some.
A spokesman for Twickenham, which sells only halal chicken despite not advertising the fact, insisted that the lack of transparency ‘had never been an issue’ and said: ‘Our consideration is more for those who want halal, to ensure they get it.’
Other institutions secretly serving up meat that is halal…include Mid-Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust and one of London’s Âbiggest NHS Trusts, Guy’s and St ÂThomas’.
…Whitbread, which also owns Table Table restaurants, Costa Coffee shops and Premier Inn hotels, admitted last night that 80 per cent of the chicken it served comes from halal poultry Âsuppliers…
A Whitbread spokesman said: ‘…It just turns out that we source that amount of chicken from suppliers that happen to be halal..It is not mentioned on any of our menus because we don’t think there is customer demand for that information.’
Ascot racecourse said it was easier to store and cook only one type of meat. ‘All our chicken is halal. This is not advertised as the menus are kept as simple as possible,’ said a spokesman.
Just in case, you thought that Halal was simply a ritual recitation of a verse while the animal is being killed,
…In 2003, (UK) Government advisory body the Farm Animal Welfare Council published a report declaring that the halal method of killing ‘would inevitÂably trigger a barrage of sensory information to the brain in a sensible (conscious) animal’.
Experts who contributed to the report concluded that ‘such a massive injury would result in very significant pain and distress in the period before insensibility supervenes’.
But wait, there is more...Last week I was alerted to another stunning news-item that mentioned plans by Harrow Council (home to the well known private, boarding school of the same name) in London to provide halal-only meat to primary schools under its jurisdication. As ever, the reason offered was disingenuous:
A statement put out by the authority on Friday, August 6, insisted: “The use of halal meat is common practice across London in many schools, public organisations and indeed restaurants, because of the need to provide segregated meat preparation.
“However, there is a choice of menu every day and frequently there is a fish, as well as a vegetarian choice.â€
By the way, Harrow Council is not alone although Muslims reportedly constitute just 7% of the population of Harrow.
Image: Screenshot of Halal Monitoring Committee (UK) website
Separately, I don’t know how many of you have noticed that the Kaati Zone kiosk just outside Bengaluru international airport only serves Halal meat (- or at least used to serve until early this year; to be fair, it was mentioned clearly on the menu board). Personally, I have long been choosing “Hindu meals” on my travels (it is an option when you book a flight) and where the source is not clear (or I am uncertain), I stick to vegetarian. I now wonder whether the practice of stealth Halal is more widespread than I thought before. I would welcome readers thoughts, comments and experiences regarding this.
P.S. As for stealth Islamization in India, I would simply reproduce the comment left by Indian (#41) on this thread (Thanks Indian):
More than 100 Hindu girl students of Stree Adhyapan Mandir, Opposite Gandhi Ashram, offered namaz on September 9 after a day long roza. However, the girls were denied permission for celebrating Ganesh ustav. The girls aged between 16 and 17 are students of Primary Teacher Course (PTC) and were living at Somnath Girls Hostel of the institute. All girls were invited for the namaz, but many refused to join them.
Though the girls were not used to Muslim religious practice, one of students Swati Patel claimed that she had learned how to offer namaz from her Muslim teacher and the clerk Anees. The girls of the institute wanted to celebrate Ganesh Utsav. But, principal outrightly denied them the permission saying that it was a waste of time and the girls may lose focus on their studies. [link; also here ]
Somewhat Related: The Increasing Talibanization of South India
Bonus Link: Ritually slaughtered meat? Not on my damn plate!
Isn’t this how Islamization starts, spreads, forces itself upon and threatens? This halal way of serving meat could be true in many places in India too. Was watching a news clip about Aceh in Indonesia where women are banned from wearing jeans or any kind of trousers. They need to wear long skirts, and sharia police stop those women that wear the non-sharia garments, force them into a room to wear long skirs and only then are let out.So, it starts with halal and ends in implementation of sharia!
Best way is to stick to vegetarianism….not sure if there is a halal way of preparing vegetable dishes..so still safe!
i think this is a very good post… personally i am vegetraian but all i thought halal was that ‘you pray to god (allah in this case)’ before mercilessly killing an animal… I thought atleast someone has thought of praying to some god (be it allah or jesus or ram) before killing and considered it a good practice…
this post throws a lot of light and need for introspection… as far as i knew ‘halal’ sign in restaurants meant that they will attract the muslim population who will not touch the meat unless it is halal… for others i dont think they care… meat is meat… what matters to most people is the taste and how it is cooked and not how it is cut… it will be interesting to read what others have to say about this….
Very interesting post as many are unaware of the word ‘Halal meat’. There are schools in N. America where Halal food is served to students.
Isn’t it same as ‘Kosher’ for Jews.
Stick to vegetarianism is the best option!
I mostly agree with 2nd para of Vinod’s response.
Halal may be an Islamic procedure and it is definitely insensitive to the animal rights folks, but how is it anti-Hindu? Yes, we do like “jhatka” as opposed to halal when it comes to sacrifice, but there is nothing to prevent a Hindu from eating halal meat. Besides meat is not a halal meat until maulavi prays during the slaughter. Did that happen in all the cases that Shantanu was describing?
The justifications are however terrible. I guess Britain’s long downward journey is at it’s end phase.
My flight meals are usually vegetarian because of health reasons (same reason I would not drink alcohol in the flight).
Sikhs aren’t allowed to eat Halal !
They have to eat meat from an animal that has been killed in an instant – as that is more humane and kinder.
Halal is cruel and should be banned from UK.
If muslims want to eat it – they can do so in countries where such cruel slaughter practices are allowed.
Halal is slow and long cruelty and Jhatka is fast and sudden cruelty. Shun meat of all kind ; turn veg. As for steath Islamisation; well it is there
I am UK based and I can confirm I am having an experience consistent with this story. A lot of restuarants that didn’t before, now server Halal meat only. We spoke to one waiter of what we think is a hindu owned restuarant we ate at; he basically said it just worked out cheaper to buy halal meat only, rather than buying both non halal and halal. There is now also a fairly large “Halal meat” section in many grocery outlets that there wasn’t a few years ago. We also have no-go areas (yay). I digress, the point is that the majority is appeasing the minority.
To be honest I would prefer non halal to halal, although I’ll eat halal if it is all that’s there. Some might say the act of eating meat is cruel enough that it doesn’t matter so much how it was slaughtered; I guess they’d have a point, but I’d still prefer animals were treated humanely, respectfully etc…..
Didn’t mean for that to all be bold.
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🙂 Sorry sir. Surge of the moment. Will take care next time.
Why the hate? BTW, do you know how many places you eat serve “Kosher†food? If propagating certain information altered to spread division and reporting baseless facts gives you pleasure, then please carry on.
@Ahmed
We have right to be informed what we eat and what we shouldn’t; the same way other community has right to eat halal way or Kosher way. Why it hurts you? And how it constitute to be a baseless facts? Did not you see most of the reader are propagating vegetarianism, where is the pleasure in it?
Try to learn what people choices are other than khoser and Halal.
@Indian,
Cool down. If he had an inclination to debate, he would have checked the links before calling the post baseless. One sad output of cult of indoctrination.
Dear All: very hurried reply since I am travelling…
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@Uma: I share your concern that this may be the thin end of the wedge re. Islamization…
@Vinod: I think people do care re. how the meat was obtained. Sikhs are forbidden to eat Halal as are Jews. Most Hindu meat-eaters will not touch Halal, considering it unnecessarily painful and causing suffering. Similarly several of the 500-odd comments on the Daily Mail article from meat-eaters mentioned how they would prefer the animal to die as painlessly as possible and halal does not help that. That is also the reason why the animal-rights groups in some countries are against the practice.
@Indian: Kosher is similar but not the same as Halal (it is equally painful to the animal though; the difference is ritualistic)
@Sid: Re. “there is nothing to prevent a Hindu from eating halal meat.” I think that may be true..it might boil down to a matter of being humane about this rather than deliberately inflicting pain.
Separately, I don’t think its the Maulvi who has to necessarily pray during the salughter; anyone can pray – usually the butcher prays.
@repo man: “…he basically said it just worked out cheaper to buy halal meat only, rather than buying both non halal and halal.”
Interesting…so there may be an economic angle to this…
@Ahmed: Re. “Why the hate?” Can you be a bit more precise please? Where do you see/read the hate?
Also can you please specify where have I indulged in “…reporting baseless facts..”? I pride myself on referencing and cross-checking facts/info in stories/articles before posting so please be precise if you spot something is wrong – or “baseless”.
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Separately, two additional links for your reading pleasure: Saving the planet by going vegetarian…
and Eating red meat may be really bad for you…
from #14 it might boil down to a matter of being humane about this rather than deliberately inflicting pain.
if there is a genuine concern in this regard, any other form of killing also inflicts pain, and since, there is barely any effort in shunning non-vegetarian food, specially in today’s well connected world, good tasty vegetarian is available at almost all places.. i simply dont get the logic behind eating non-vegetarian food, at least in non-exceptional cases..
Most Hindu meat-eaters will not touch Halal, considering it unnecessarily painful and causing suffering.
Whatever supposedly “minimal” suffering inflicted from eating any other kind of meat is also absolutely unnecessary, and deep down everybody knows that..
In fact, the resource intensive animal breeding is, people not eating meat will infact contribute to removing lots of suffering by contributing to reduction of the hunger problem, and also by way of lesser greenhouse emissions..
Please provide a case for eating meat, and if possible, for not advocating shunning of meat as a whole..
btw, you could ask me to elaborate the ways in which not eating meat will infact be beneficial to humanity..
@All,
I can not understand our obsession with advising others of going vegetarian. Vegetarianism is a choice of lifestyle, it is not a sermon, it is not a part of any duty established by Dharma and it does not establish a man’s willingness of committing crimes (I was once told indirectly in a town in Southern India that my inclination towards eating mean/fish would create ungodly feelings; as if vegetarians are so holy). Plus, horror of all horrors, I am born in a Brahmin family, but I eat non-veg. The sermon was repeatedly given to me many times in multiple cities in India and abroad and I have seen the sermon-giver basking in a holier-than-thou glory. I have stayed outside my family from the age of nine and initially it disturbed me so much that I considered myself an atheist for a long time in the early years. I never asked a vegetarian to eat egg or fish with me, in fact, I recall driving several miles to a veg restaurant to satisfy just one vegetarian in a group of clients or colleagues.
I am all for stoping animal cruelty and I do not support torture. However, being a realist I can not imagine a world where the entire world would go vegetarian just like I refuse to believe that in my lifetime I would see a human not killing a human. You may point out that killing is a painful process too, but in West, it is customary to kill animal after stunning it and this is one western initiative I would not mind copying.
firstly, if being vegetarian has to be a choice of lifestyle and is not to be related to dharma (as per hinduism we talk).. then even eating halal meat should have nothing related to dharma.. and, you agree to that..
if not deliberately inflicting pain is the goal,
even killing an animal by stunning does inflict pain and suffering.. in fact not just in the process of killing, but in the whole process of breeding for ‘edible’ meat, lots of pain and suffering gets inflicted on the animal, you might know that the way animals are bred for meat is very different from natural growth, and causes a lot of pain and suffering..
therefore, if your goal is to not deliberately inflict pain and suffering,
isnt it clearly logical enough that you must not be eating non-vegetarian, of course eating it for medicinal purposes is a different debate altogether, and i choose to skip that for the time..
re: it does not establish a man’s willingness of committing crimes
it does establish a man’s willingness of letting suffering inflict, and this, inspite of it not being a difficult task to contribute towards its reduction
you might know that the way animals are bred for meat is very different from natural growth, and causes a lot of pain and suffering..Yes, I know. But when it comes to pain of that sort, how are vegetarians any better? In the last century, JC Bose did pioneering work to measure the amount of pain trees feel when a leave or a fruit is torn or when strong chemicals applied to the trees. Now, imagine DDT families of strong chemicals being applied everywhere in the farms. You think that is a painless process for the plants? Or for a vegetarian, this pain is negligible because trees can not scream? Face it, when it comes to mass production of living beings, no “painless” mechanism exist. So either we have to accept the existing mechanism of producing living beings or we have to get ourselves habituated to the idea of eating non-living stuff. What is your solution to this?
it does establish a man’s willingness of letting suffering inflict, and this, inspite of it not being a difficult task to contribute towards its reductionThe measure of difficulty is subjective, is it not?
the quantum of pain to plants on plucking of fruit, etc. is much lesser than what is, to animals the way they are bred.. and this is not because
if the objective is to not inflict pain deliberately then one should aim to reduce it as much as possible.. and, organic farming reduces some of the pain causing elements to plants, one can opt for organic products, and promote it too..
yes, measure of difficulty is subjective, but in that case, i chose to believe by personal experience and observation that it is reasonably convenient to lead a vegetarian life, especially in india.. and people have already demonstrated that..
the quantum of pain to plants on plucking of fruit, etc. is much lesser than what is, to animals the way they are bred..– Really? How do you know?and this is not because if the objective is to not inflict pain deliberately then one should aim to reduce it as much as possible..– Nobody is suggesting others to introduce pain deliberately. You seem to accuse every non-vegetarians to do this, which clearly is not the case.and, organic farming reduces some of the pain causing elements to plants, one can opt for organic products, and promote it too..– Do you understand what happens to the food production level if everyone in the world switches to organic farming? Organic farming is not sustainable without government and consumer subsidy even in the West (even there question of regulation is a thorny one). And what governments and consumers can afford in West is just not applicable in India where majority would be glad to eat food on a daily basis.This reminds me about a six months old debate on a comment from Bill Gates where he suggested the introduction of genetically modified food in sub-saharan countries. I saw a storm of criticism about his comment but none is interested to solve the question that what would sub-saharan inhabitants eat if they can not afford or grow normal food (organic food is even a distant dream)? As usual, sermons are available in plenty, no real solutions. But I digress from the main topic.
but in that case, i chose to believe by personal experience and observation that it is reasonably convenient to lead a vegetarian life, especially in india..– As I said before, vegetarianism is a life-style and people have a right to choose their life-style according to their beliefs, not someone else’s belief.Organic produce is no big deal…actually it can be made more affordable; it grows on compost and not on chemicals. Our fore father were doing organic farming and that also in cheap way. Personally I don’t eat organic so cannot advocate for it.
My prediction west will go green sooner in larger amount the way awareness is going around. Not only because they realized the pain inflicted on animals but also because suffering of their own health due to animal diet.
Personally I believe water for drinking, plant for food and air to breath, is that simple.
Producing plants, fruits and vegetables is not that hard in countries where animals are produce in farms with lot of expenses which are not meant to. What I see is lack of serious initiatives. Its different story what people wants to hold on. To each its own.
Keeping Dharma and so called ‘cruelty’ aside, Vegetarian food is definitely the healthier choice.
@Uma,
Allow me to point out that healthier foods not only depend on raw materials, it also depends on how you cook/prepare it. In calorie terms, a sushi is far healthier than the greasy gravies of Malai Kofta or paneer butter masala.
Besides, if you survey the trend of vegetarianism in India, it would surprise you. There are people who would not eat animal protein and call themselves Veg. Some other people would also avoid onion/garlic and would not consider such people vegetarian who eat them. I recently came across someone who would even deny potato as a veg food. Some other vegetarians also would not accept milk, even soy milk as veg food. In all such cases, one group would deny the holier-than-thou status of vegetarianism to others because they eat so-and-so. Each such cases they have the excuse of upholding their Dharma.
The problem is not vegetarianism, the problem is in making it a point of social divide so that one group of Indians can declare themselves more “Dharmic” than others. People who do that on a regular basis say that caste-based discrimination must be stopped. Huh!!!
@Sid
I understand that your comment is not meant for me, but just to put my thoughts.
I come from vegetarian community and never divided ourselves from anyone declaring we are more Dharmic than others. Actually our community conduct and participate less in religious rituals than those who do every other day.
Also people don’t drink milk because they have allergy of dairy product, some thinks that it comes from the udder of the cow which is meant for their calves, or disgusting or other reasons. I agree about your views on too much spicy food, we need fibers in our daily intake to maintain healthy digestion which comes from daily serving of half cooked vegetables, plants, and fruits.
I agree with what you say its not good to divide people on that line. And it is also not true that every time people propagate vegetarianism is because he/she is holding him/her holier than thou. They just want people to limit their use of knives on animals. Save a life!
Recently some time back in news from Gujarat, 50 Muslims family turned to no- meat food. It clearly shows its not about Dharma everytime.
@Sid,
What you said about vegetarianism is true to some extent…I do agree that a ghee-laden gravy with ‘vegetables’ is nothing but a heart attack served on a platter. When I said healthier, I meant that diseases spread from meat handling and eating are far higher than veg dishes.
I do not support the ‘holier than thou because I eat veg’ attitude. Choice of food is personal and one cannot comment on that choice. Dharma differed from time to time based on the community requirements and it will change in the future too. I do not understand why you came to the conclusion that vegetarians believe that they are more dharmic than meat eaters. I am a vegetarian and it is my choice. I do not think I am a better follower of dharma because of that alone! Well, I may point out here that Hindus worship cows and hence do not consume beef. But many folks that I know eat beef in McDonalds and continue going to temples and celebrate hindu festivals. So what does that make them???
@ Sid, like you a brahminbandhu who drinks wine and eats meat- in my case also (non-Indian Japanese KOBE beef) and only outside India. My son is, like Rahul, half-Italian but thanks to Padma Subramaniyam, he sports a sacred thead whereas I have none being content to be a bhakta of Lord Murura at Pallani where I had mundan at age of 3.
As far as I can tell, there is no caste system in India. Though a big black fellow speaking ‘Urdu’ not Hindi, and lacking ‘janeo’ I have never been disadvantated in conducting rites at any teertha of North or Central India (I am Tamil). Instead of obloquy, young people of all castes- even the cowardly so-called ‘high’ castes- come flocking to me.
Why? They want some toughness and leadership.
Sir, their eyes are full of fire.
Proper guidance and leadership is essential.
I personally have great respect for Shantanuji but none at all for the Daily Mail. Because I live in U.K, I can tell you that this issue is a non-starter. I myself helped get pure Halal meat off the ground, not for Muslims in U.K, but to help exports from the client country. On a personal level, I have also advised Sylheti, Muslim, brothers of mine on making their restaurants Kosher compliant.
This is a non issue.
British meat is so bad that people in prison claim to be Jewish/Muslim so as to get something tasty and edible.
Nothing to do with Islam, everything to do with how crap the British tastebuds had become.
Sid Sahib don’t attack me for saying this but crazy Islamism, like Socialism, claims to speak for the very people it will destroy.
Where we have a good leader- Modi Sahib- we can’t say he did this because he was Hindu and he didn’t do this because he wasn’t Muslim.
On the contrary, the man is beyond religion. He ended the cycle of violence-terrorism that started in 1969 that too within one year of taking office.
Sir, if you have any scheme for advancing Hindus- including by immigration to advanced countries as well as (not Micro but) Medium level Finance for entrepreneurship then please do contact me at this address
polypubs@gmail.com
We also have a scheme to sponsor students for E.C/America.
Not affilliated with anybody.
Best wishes
the quantum of pain to plants on plucking of fruit, etc. is much lesser than what is, to animals the way they are bred..it being a scientifically accepted fact that plants are a lower life form compared to animals..there is no accepted evidence which to support that the response to stimuli that exists in the case of plants, has any aspect of emotion, or any impact on the conscience.. though in the case of animal killing, the way the animals react itself is big support for the claim that the pain and suffering in animals has a higher level, and elements of emotion and impact on the conscience..
regarding organic farming, people have already responded to your comment..
but in that case, i chose to believe by personal experience and observation that it is reasonably convenient to lead a vegetarian life, especially in india.. – As I said before, vegetarianism is a life-style and people have a right to choose their life-style according to their beliefs, not someone else’s belief.do u believe that it would be a difficult task for you to lead a vegetarian life?
Relating to the subject the following links may pl be seen
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1260286/KFC-diner-told-bacon-burger–halal.html#ixzz0j84HxsA4
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/03/30/save-the-planet-stop-eating-meat/
http://www.worldsikhnews.com/21%20January%202009/Goat%20Sacrifice%20at%20Hazur%20Sahib%20%20Myth%20&%20Truth.htm
http://www.glamfaith.org/uk/faith-groups/7/dietary_laws/
@Uma, @Indian,
I understand the points of yours. I ranted against the “the obsession of vegetarianism” because that was a long time frustration for me. My current job lands me into all sorts of middle-of-nowhere places four days a week and I really do not have the luxury of lot of choices for food. To balance the diet I prefer to eat simple non-spicy vegetarian food during the weekends. So, no, I do not have anything against vegetarian food, a vegetarian orthodoxy and any argument to justify it are something I find disgusting. Along with orthodox caste system, an orthodox doctrine of non violence and a holier-than-thou attitude (all of which does not have a ground in scriptures) have a lot to do with the current derogatory perception of our Dharma.
@Prashant,
it being a scientifically accepted fact that plants are a lower life form compared to animals..How so? Assuming that you are a Hindu, we do not have a concept of lower/upper life-forms; we believe that every life-from has a soul. The upper/lower life-form is a christian idea that ultimately justifies man’s right to govern the lower life-forms (i.e. destroy flora and fauna) as he wishes.
has any aspect of emotion, or any impact on the conscienceYou probably need to understand that life-forms who do not have emotion/conscience can feel pain. All you need is a mechanism to carry that kind of stimuli. Both plants and animals have them.
do u believe that it would be a difficult task for you to lead a vegetarian life?Yes, I do. Please stop making assumptions about people you do not know about. If I ever accept vegetarianism (which I may post-forty) I would do so by my own will and choice. As a free man, I do not see any need to justify my life-style to you or anyone else.
@vivek,
I am not sure what exactly your points/complaints are.
Sid!! Read all your arguments with surprise and mounting sadness.
You justify killing animals for food and compare killing of a cow or a goat with plucking of a leave; that left me spell bound
I can go on and prove that you are way off the mark but having read you I know it will be a waste of time and effort. You will come up with another of your smart yet surprisingly shallow argument
The fact that you are spiritually lost. Introspect and pray. It helps.
I was amazed how you defend devouring flesh and bones of sentient animals who have feeling like us; who have mothers siblings and who want to live. I know you will tell me ‘ but a blade of grass too want to grow’ ; you have an amazing range of delusion; I hope you get out of this one day.
Keep a pet and try killing it yourself after one year if you really justify such killing. But who can argue with people who have started telling lies to themselves
And yes I am not holier than thou; I am much less than you in intellectual ability. I have lesser intellegence than you but I think I have a bit more wisdom than you ; if you permit this
I am not going to get back to you or read what you tell me now. May God be with you; and may you develop some compassion towards animals. I know I have angered you. Forgive me ; I could not help it
(Photo) Bengaluru Muslims indoctrinating their babies to turn into Hamas-type terrorists
Check out the baby at the right-hand side bottom of this photograph
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article793376.ece
@ashok,
Thanks, you just confirmed what I was talking about in this thread. An obsession of advising others to go vegie is so obvious. I question this obsession and immediately I am “delusional”, “smart”, “shallow” and in need of “introspection” and “prayer”. But trees can not have life (or to quote Prashant “upper form of life”) because vegetarians would find it uncomfortable, right? Obviously, the solution out of this dilemma is that I am delusional.
When others put their argument, I had to write my explanation to tell them what I exactly meant. But you response ironically illustrates my point so well, that I do not need to do explain any more. Thank you, ashok. 🙂
@VoP: good eye !!!
it’s painful … to think how humans fight over symbolic processes of killing the animals … without having the slightest empathy
… i think an instant death much more reasonable than forcing the animal to keep hearing some chants I pray as it is dying !!! eww !!!
Wanted to give some coverage to this news I just found, don’t know what post it might fit in
http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/jun/10/slide-show-1-fridge-that-runs-without-electricity.htm
@VoP: This is the right thread: Open Thread on “this, that and the other”
On a related note, I am trying to get in touch with him.
" If you wish to contact him dial: 02828 221156;OR 0-9825177249 (M).E-mail: info@mitticool.in "
@Sid
Even if every life form might have a soul, its not religion but clearly, as animals have so much of sensorimotor activity, there is little probability that plants feel an equivalent or greater extent of pain.. anyways,
the meat industry, the animals consume plants and we in turn consume animals, the pain/suffering is inflicted at both levels, wont the suffering reduce if we directly eat plants, specially in cases when we have the option..? arent animals being ‘produced’ for the sake of consumption in the meat industry ?
Even if every life form might have a soul, its not religion but clearly, as animals have so much of sensorimotor activity, there is little probability that plants feel an equivalent or greater extent of pain– Prashant, the pain for plants case has been established scientifically and anyone who wants to search in google can find about it. Yes, keep beating that dead horse of “upper-life-form” and “plant-can-not-feel-pain” theories.the meat industry, the animals consume plants and we in turn consume animals, the pain/suffering is inflicted at both levels, wont the suffering reduce if we directly eat plants, specially in cases when we have the option..?– Now that is an innovation. How about this: since both trees and animals exist and they both would not leave forever, why would we choose trees alone for inflicting pain, specially when animal is an option? How do you feel about this? Finding it offensive? Good, because I wanted you to feel that nagging about vegetarianism to a non-vegetarian is as offensive as a non-vegetarian proposing animal protein to a vegetarian.arent animals being ‘produced’ for the sake of consumption in the meat industry ?– They are and so are the vegetables in a farm. And your point is?One can completely survive on plant base diet but not solely on animal diet.
Properties of plants and animals are very different in many ways. Smell of fruits,grains and vegetables tempts taste bud and are meant for that. If not eaten on time will get rot.
How we get tempted to eat animals is still a question.
@Indian,
How we get tempted to eat animals is still a question.How is it anyone’s business to determine what others would eat or not? As I said before, I do not have a problem with vegetarianism or vegetarians, it is a lifestyle choice. I do have a problem with an over-zealous vegetarianism and vegetarians (only in India) tend to forget that distributing sermons when not needed is hardly a way of gathering support.
@Sid
I am not the one over zealous or obsessed, who you are talking about in your comment. Dont take it as absession or business point of view.
My message is very simple. Dont kill animals for feeding your soul and body! My mission is very different than what you are thinking about. Time has not yet come to talk about it.
@Sid
Sorry Sid, I have used the word “Your soul and body” is not directed towards you but as a general way.
@Indian,
Ok, understood.
firstly, let me make it clear, i am treating this as a debate and discussion, and i dont find any reason to get offended by a mere argument.. in case u do get offended by that, you may choose to not comment any further..
yea, i did not complete the connection between my previous points well..
”
arent animals being ‘produced’ for the sake of consumption in the meat industry ?– They are and so are the vegetables in a farm. ”exactly, (most of) the plants and animals from whom we derive our food, dont simply exist naturally, and are grown on purpose..
we re talking about reducing the quantum of pain as far as possible,
let me present a set of examples
case a:
people of group a are vegetarians, and a certain quantity of vegetables, etc. are produced for them.. plants feel a certain amount of pain..
case b:
people of group b are non-vegetarians, now a certain quantity of animal meat is produced for them, now, animal meat is formed by the food they eat, and as we know only a fraction of the food eaten by the animal gets passed on to the animal eater, since the food required by the human beings is assumed to be constant for the time.. a greater amount of plant based food is indirectly consumed up here for producing the certain amount of meat required, than the vegetarians directly ate.. notably, the plant food indirectly consumed is also farmed on purpose for the most part.. add to this the pain caused to animals..
i hope this clearly puts across that, ‘case a’ will lead to lesser pain; and that irrespective of which one of plants or animals suffer more pain..
since both trees and animals exist and they both would not leave forever, why would we choose trees alone for inflicting pain, specially when animal is an option?well, the animals being consumed would not have existed if the demand for non-vegetarian food would not have been there..
same for farmed plants..
i hope i neednt repeat the points of the previous comment to complete this counter-point..
@ Sid
Since my latest comments were in the spam queue for a long time,
thought i’d write this one to alert you to them..
My apologies if you had already seen them..
@Prashant,
Let us get to the core of your point. The point, as I understand, is that you feel pain felt by plant is much less compared to pain felt by an animal. I do not agree to this assumption. Please provide me studies supporting your argument. Just because plant can not express pain in audible or visual terms does not mean that their pain is any less. If I have to buy your argument then this means that if a chicken or goat can not scream it’s pain is lesser.
The cycle of life in the entire nature embodies a eater-eaten relationship. Some animals eat plant, some animals eat those animals which eats plant. There are plants which eats both plant and animal and there are animals which, given a chance, enjoy humans. Human can eat both plants and animals. This is natural.
It is however undeniable that in the raw state, plant based foods are easier to digest than animal foods are. It is also true that animal-based foods give rise to certain ungodly feelings (and makes mind difficult to control) which is why most rituals in Dhrama can not be performed after eating meat.
I stand-by the argument that vegetarianism is a life style and everyone has full right to adopt it. So is the non-vegetarianism. Unless someone gives me a logical case for the fact that vegetarianism is the only natural thing in the world and every non-vegetarian is a criminal, I am not going to buy it. An orthodox vegetarianism is increasingly doing criminalizing a legitimate life-style much the same way Gandhi’s Ahmisa doctrine has turned self-defense a social taboo.
When it comes to a one’s Right, legally you do, i never questioned that..
outside the legal domain, it depends upon beliefs and perceptions, and my arguments here are not meant to coax you to eat non-vegetarian food..
as maintained from my first comment, #15, my argument is that: if the aim is to reduce suffering or pain, one may better go for vegetarian food..
comment #39 onwards, i am arguing on basis of your own logic that plants and animals both feel some degree of pain and for the meanwhile hibernating the argument of who feels more pain..
i would request you to now go through comment #46
@Sid
all the while I was reading all the comments and didn’t had much to comment.
But after reading Prashant’s comment#46 has a point it gave me a chance to look into this differently.
Animals are grown on feeds of plants or other animals. That means if we kill animal to eat we actually inflict pain to 2 species. Plants and animals both.
But if you are a vegetarian only plants will suffer. (my understanding)
I’m not a strict veggie, but have stopped eating non-veg for almost 4 months now. The reason is simple I opt for it. I do not advocate any particular food (unless someone asks explicitly).
Jai Bharat!
To support Prasant’s claim : 1/3 of all the farm produce of the world is used to feed Animals which are then killed and eaten by humans.
I liked the point somewhere above in this blog that “one will not kill his own pet animal to eat it”
@Madhusudan
True! not ready to understand that others may have the same feeling for non-pet animals. I saw people shedding tears and tears, when their cat or dog get missing(lost) or dies. Why they cry? when the same people were educating others about eating animals being simply in a food chain?
And also in west they have animal shelter where lost and abused animals are kept. Some time general public bring to the notice of the authority that animals are not being treated well in shelter. I wonder, when they can care so much about their pets, why don’t others can have the same rights to care about non-pets animals?
And once, one pet animal was not being treated well by its owner; some neighbors told the owner that you are cruel and wicked. So at some point they themselves are admitting that not treating animals rightly is cruel and wicked!
Dada Vaswani Speaks at Parliament of the World’s Religions:
Dada J.P. Vaswani of the Sadhu Vaswani Mission speaks out his message of “Stop all killing” at the Convocation of Hindu Spiritual Leaders at the Parliament of the World’s Religions in Melbourne, Australia, on 8 December 2009. Full length of his speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_yhi7dtih8
Jai Bharat!
Hope Sid is not too pissed off to discuss any further..
*All
I am a vegeterian and find this discussion amusing. Kudos to all for your contribution.
My 2 rupees 🙂
Since childhood, I have been thinking about suffering caused to living beings for our food esp. when it is scientifically proven that plants responds to a stimuli. They too are made up of cells which has life just like animals. Here are the conflicting points for which I do not have the answer:
1.)Against Vegetarians: If crying and whining is the criteria, then there could be many incests/animal, which do not cry like a goat when slaughtered, then is it okay to eat them, as their reaction would be just like plants. It appears more like an arbitrary line for what is human and what is not.
Ideally, if one should not kill for food then plants should not be touched as well. What should one eat then? rocks?
2.) Against Non-Vegetarians: Taking this argument to another extreme, if it is okay to kill any animal as quantum of soulness doesn’t matter (killing is after all killing, whining and crying notwithstanding), then what do you think about cannibalism?
Is it alright to eat human flesh? Human being is also just another complex animal made of up cells.
If this is also unacceptable, where is the dividing line?
you say that plants too have life.. and that thus we shouldnt eat anything..
well, if we cant escape eliminating causing suffering to a living being, we can at least go to reduce it..
and it can be definitely reduced to a large extent, as i argue in comment #46
besides, regarding the argument of plants being lower life forms and animals being higher life forms..
it may be a christian idea too as Sid emphasized..
but its not that hinduism doesnt share the same..
very recently, sri sri ravi shankar, a hindu spiritual leader, in some other context, said in hindi quantifying the life force (prana) in various forms,
quoting the english translation of what he said from his official blog:-
Stone (Pathar) has 1 unit of PranaWater (Pani) has 2 units of Prana
Fire (Agni) has 3 units of Prana
Air(Hava) has 4 units of Prana
Ether (Akash) has 5 units of Prana
Animals and trees have 6 - 7 units of Prana
Human Being has 8 units of Prana. Hence he is called as ASHTAVASU. But humans are born with a possibility to blossom into a fully blossomed state. Lord Krishna has highest units of Prana – 16. That is why He is referred to as fully blossomed being"
the complete transcript can be found here
and similar beliefs also exist in jainism, to my knowledge..
@Anirudh,
2.) Against Non-Vegetarians: Taking this argument to another extreme, if it is okay to kill any animal as quantum of soulness doesn’t matter (killing is after all killing, whining and crying notwithstanding), then what do you think about cannibalism?Is it alright to eat human flesh? Human being is also just another complex animal made of up cells.
As an unapologetic meat eater I need to provide my 200 rupees (due to inflation Rs. 2 does not have any value).
Cannibalism is a taboo in our society, thus humans can not be eaten. As some anthropologists would tell you most likely some of our very distant ancestors were cannibals themselves. But we have crossed that stage and see no reason to go back there.
Besides, as you go to the bigger animals in terms of food it becomes increasingly difficult for body to digest it. With respect to the weather in the subcontinent, most of the time of the year, it has become nearly impossible to digest any meat richer than chicken.
The point is – eat what you wish to and need to. A vegetarian friend of mine was advised by doctor to eat Fish oil tablets, he declined to the point his problems created serious threat for life. Finally, he began to consume them but it is impossible to alter the damage already done. Why such an inflexibility that can cost your life?
Like everything else in the world, each food has something good to offer and something to worry about. That is why our ancestors has classified each food in Sattvik/Rajasik/Tamasik categories and pushed non-veg to Tamasik category. But they did not ban it. Assigning an aura of holiness because you eat so-and-so (or do not eat so-and-so) is disastrous and amounts to religious dogma.
I’m posting a comment I left on the Harrow Observer site here for the record:
***
jaidharma, says…
6:49pm Sat 18 Sep 10
Can I please request the Council to reconsider this decision?
The decision limits choice by not offering a non-halal meat option to students who may not be comfortable eating halal meat.
The issue is not that “The use of halal meat is common practice across London..” (as mentioned by the council spokesperson) but that there is no choice for those who wish to eat chicken, pork or beef cooked using non-Halal methods. To clarify what I mean, would the Council consider a vegetarian-only lunch in schools along the lines of (paraphrased) “…there is a choice of menu every day and frequently there is a fish, as well as a meat choiceâ€?
I do hope that the feelings and concerns of Harrow residents and students are taken into account. Thanks.
***
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/debateshow/msid-9029391,curpg-4.cms
@Sid,
You say “Cannibalism is a taboo in our society, thus humans can not be eaten”
Why it is a taboo and what is the reason we have crossed this stage?
I don’t buy this argument that humans gave it up just because we can’t digest that meat.
If you think we have moved on from eating other fellow being, don’t you think at some point of time in future we will give up eating other animals?
And no, I don’t have any holier than thou attitude toward meat eaters… just check my previous posts.
From an email by a friend currently in India:
..currently in Delhi and in shock,I thought it was bad enough with this Halal situation in the UK,unsure if you are aware that 95 to 100% of 5 star hotels in Delhi are serving Halal meat,ITC Saket stated that 90% of their functions are catered for the Hindu community yet all there meat is halal, we stipulated that we would cancel a function there if the meat was halal and they catered to a non halal requirement.
I know somebody who was going to hold a function at Meridian,and stipulated that the meat should be Non Halal,and there response was go somewhere else.
Was invited to diner last night at a restaurant called Nanking and they confirmed they only serve Halal!
Was in a restaurant called Chopstixs the manager told me the majority of Delhi restaurants serve Halal.
What is happening to India…how is this possible that in our own homeland we are being treated like second grade citizens,India should be a Non Halal meat serving nation, unless it is a Muslim restaurant.
My gripes from a country that is losing its moral and values.
It is quite possible that most of the suppliers are Muslims and that they supply Halal meat only.
Another thing is that, typically, Muslims want their meat to be Halal, and others dont have any concern about what kind of meat do they want.
There will need to be some agency which probably comes out with a concept of killing in the least hurt-ful and most hygeinic way, and that enough people demand that kind of meat.
Simply Non-Halal might be a weird demand.
There was a debate on halal food catered in one of the school. Imam said: you Hindus are slack, Hindus are not allowed to eat meat. so the point is they are following what their religion prescribes, so you do the same and forget about Halal. This really made me thinking, Imam is not wrong either. Its not the question of eating or not eating but we are slacked in many ways. did any one find where it is said eating meat in our book? Because when I am raising question of vegetarianism, always encounterd with such things where it is said or not said!
Halal means rightful and its opposite is Haram or illegitimate. It is believed that Allah granted some animals for meat and it was alright to slaughter them and as long as the prayer was said while slicing the necks of the poor animals it was halal. Anything else is haram.
In India there is no such thing as stunning the animals. For most of us a visit to a butcher’s place(not the clinical shelves of supermarkets) in India is a shocking experience. Those who have bought chicken from roadside shops will attest the fact that the birds know of their fate the moment the cage is touched. You have to see the stampede and the relief after an unfortunate bird is caught.
I prefer being a vegetarian.
“My gripes from a country that is losing its moral and values.”
So if resturant serve Halal meat is a sign that the country is losing it’s values ? So muslim values are not part of the countries’ values ?
Ironically few muslims can afford these places and some of them who do often avoid going to these places because they are unsure of the type of meat served in these establishments. As a muslim I would welcome more establishments serving Halal meat which means more choice for me.
63 Prashant Serai’s explanation makes sense to me.
Few points
http://www.islamveg.com/halalmeat.asp
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17972-animals-feel-the-pain-of-religious-slaughter.html?full=true&print=true
@Indian.
The debate was about food habits and thus nothing has to do with religion as such. Thus the statement that “I follows mine and you follow yours” is not a point at all. Reasoning that there are thousands of things in religious text which we don’t follow and there are thousands of things which we can’t(illegal).
The debate was about a type of food habitat and we/people are within our/their right to ask the restaurants to serve the ‘Normal’ Meat rather than Halal Meat.
@Rakesh T
Debate is about Halal meat served because of particualar religios method, not about food habit. I am not against that non Halal meat must not be served.
Read my comment again. I was just bringing to the notice what kind of discussion is going around on Halal meat served in school. Imam in one of the debate said that “Hindus are not permitted to eat meat”. In short his point was they are following their religious requirement in eating halal meat so you too follow what is said in your religion that is not eating meat. Its not my debate. Its Imam’s debate. Also read in my comment I said “its not about eating or not eating”.I was just wondering is there anything said in our book about eating or not eating.
But muslims follows all that thousands of things which is asked in their book. So Imam also said “Hindus are slack”. It was on John Oakley talk show i fount it on net.
@ahmad
‘Religious freedom stops where human or animal suffering begins’,Dutch govt., says so on Halal meat.
Since when did slaughtering of animal comes under value?
@Ahmad (#66): Re. “As a muslim I would welcome more establishments serving Halal meat which means more choice for me“, it is precisely this “choice” that appears to be absent when you introduce Halal products without telling people about the,..Don’t you think?
@shantanu
If you are saying every eating establishment has a sign or informs it customers of the type of meat used, then I am with you.
What I am uncomfortable is the implication that there is some sort of conspiracy by muslims or by the management of these establishments to ensure that served in Indian resturants is Halal to appease muslims
This is when muslims would be only a small part of their clientele.
I think it is because most of their clientele do not simply care about the type of meat served.
Many of them also serve pork and alcohol while orthodox muslims would avoid places where they serve alcohol or pork.
Perhaps there are more halal butchers and muslim owned meat suppliers to these establishments and hence the meat served is mostly Halal.
Personally I have never been to five star resturants or hotels so don’t really care. As for other normal resturants I always avoided ordering non -veg dishes thinking that the meat is not halal.This is when my hindu colleagues or friend are ordering non veg dishes around me because most of them don’t care.
Ah, the inhumane, uncultured, cruel vegetarian evangelists are on the prowl again on this site – oh all ye wicked slaughterers and killers of harmless, cute cabbages and cauliflowers; uprooters of kind carrots and potatoes, who never harmed a soul in their protected lives; destroyers and knife-wielding killers of sweet green peas and spinach’ living their blameless lives under the sun, without a though of their coming doom, FIE ON YOU, I SAY. Shame on you, heartless killers, merciless fiends, may you all rot in hell for not giving your food a sporting chance.
At least, poor blameless me who must feed his stomach, allows his prey to run away from him and even occasionally escape – not like you, born killers, preying on the poor, stationery, innocent cabbages.
Fie on you, I say.
cheers
Patriot
stationary, not stationery, in the last para – although with cabbages, there is not much difference.
Heh
@patriot
Dont get emotional defending yourself. Nice shot though but still missed…you are very modest. Atleast we have guts to accept…Shame on us, we are heartless killers, merciless fiends,…and that is also under the day light…no need to run also…. anything left describing butchers like us more appropriately? hell is too good for us..Is there anything worst than hell? Really like to see chasing the animal for food with big knife…. have seen the animal escaping…really enjoyable. Probably kids too will love it!!
We are on prowl…what about you…welcome back though! I understand your comment may not have meant for anyone here and Dont take my above statement that all veg., are very big on animal protector and the reason engaging in talk with you ….as long as you tend to see this topic this way you will defend yourself without understanding others point of view….no one is forcing here anyone what to eat and what not!! But if it is being discuss all have their right, to show what food they prefer over other…you must not feel bad about it or about your food that you start bashing others. FIE on us!! say whatever you can!!
@patriot
Hehe…I missed…we are born killer. preying on poor stationary cabbage and cauliflower….being a veg I could have never used this kind words for others but It is for killer people like us…fine…I accept with grace and just to let you know we are hearty and healthy withit.
From Should animals be stunned before slaughter?, a brief excerpt:
The Federation of Veterinarians of Europe took the position in 2002 that “the practice of slaughtering animals without prior stunning is unacceptable under any circumstances”,
A study of the issue commissioned by the Dutch government in 2008 concluded that “ritual slaughter has a number of negative aspects for the animals when compared to conventional procedures where a stun is performed prior to slaughter”.
Its findings were mirrored in a 2010 report by a consortium of scientists for an EU-funded project, which concluded that “it can be stated with the utmost probability that animals feel pain during the throat cut without prior stunning”.
From
MPs want curbs on ‘unacceptable’ religious slaughter:
..The government is facing renewed calls to curb the slaughtering of animals that have not first been rendered unconscious – a debate that pits religious sensitivities against the convictions of animal welfare campaigners.
Senior Conservative backbencher Greg Knight has told MPs that the practice of slaughtering cattle, lambs and chickens in this way is “rife”.
The law demands that animals be stunned before they are killed – by electrocution, gassing, or shooting retractable rods into their brains – but there are exemptions for animals to be killed according to Jewish and Muslim traditions, without stunning them first.
In the Commons on Thursday, Mr Knight described these exemptions as “unacceptable”.
This is the culmination of a series of interventions from the Conservative backbenches in recent weeks, adopting progressively more hardline stances on the subject.
The previous week, Conservative MP for Ealing Central and Acton Angie Bray claimed that “more than 25% of meat sold in our shops comes from animals that have not been stunned before slaughter”.
‘Freedom of choice’
As this amount “exceeds easily the needs of our communities with special religious requirements”, she suggested that some abattoirs were using the exemptions for kosher and halal meat as an excuse to cut costs.
..
But EU research from 2006 indicated that 75% of cattle, 93% of sheep and 100% of chickens slaughtered in the UK for halal meat were stunned prior to their deaths. Figures produced by the Food Standards Agency (FSA) in 2011 give a similar picture: 84%, 81% and 88%, respectively.
Meanwhile, Denmark and New Zealand have both legislated to ensure that all animals killed for halal meat are stunned first.
..
The UK government plans to consult on how to bring the directive into force later this year, giving an opportunity for both proponents and opponents of the current regime to rekindle the debate.
Dear Author,
It is a matter of choice to be a vegeterian or Non-vegeterian.
Today’s facts, Like you pulled out some url’s will be tomorrows fallacies, because science is bound to be evolutionary. having said that please learn the meaning of halal (What is permitted) in case of Halal meat it is a process to slaughter because it is Haram (not Permitted) to have meat with Blood.
Please read ‘Cleanliness and Godliness( http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_green_lantern/2010/02/cleanliness_and_godliness.html)
Having said that, let me tell you we live in a consumerist and ‘God less†world and Eating Halal/Kosher Doesn’t impel you a iota of islamization/Judaism, and similarly Having a Hindu meal in Airline doesn’t make me to think of HInduism either.. It’s Food man… and the choice of the back end processing based on certain ‘ Ceremonial Ritual’ ( if you want me to say so.. ) and you are parroting on this ‘ satyemeva-Jayate’ Website like most of hoopla Indian television..
Show me a Statistics.. How many have become muslims/Jews after eating halal food.. and I don’t think it is a brainier to think of any stats on how many became Jains/Hindus on eating the Hindu-meal/Jain food.
Satyameva-Jayate !!