Why are Christian Missionaries Targeting India – V

I think you’re overreacting. In my opinion as long as no one is being forced to convert to any religion, then there’s no problem.

After all, we get bombarded by advertisements every day for hundreds of products. The Church is simply using all means possible for advertising their religion. This isn’t an abuse of freedom of speech. The abuse starts if they start forcing people.

People are adults and have the right to make up their own minds. They’re not unintelligent and don’t need any protection from this sort of thing.

Let me restate the problem –

How to engage with an ideology where it is the moral binding of the believers to spread their “Truth”? Academic dishonesty is justified in this endeavor.

(Believers may not even realize that they are being dishonest in their zeal to “save” the world!)

Also, I’m assuming that individual freedom is not violated (no coersion) and activity stays within legal bounds.

Shantanu,

Thanks for the reply and the other post. I think patriot raised some valid points on the that post.

by arguing and demonstrating that there are perfectly satisfactory alternative belief systems/faiths/”truths” that have been around for several millenia before Christ and the Prophet.

– Before or after the Christ/Prophet is irrelevant.
– If you ask a true believer who is interested in converting you, he is doing the same thing as you are suggesting.
“Helping” people is what motivates a 60 yr old evangelical lady. I have met one. She was very sincere. How different are you? I don’t doubt the sincerity of your conviction that other belief systems are better.
– Problem is that no believer has sufficient evidence to back up his claims. I do concede that different faiths vary in their ideological expectations from believers.
– But you are still suggesting: engaging in a faith-vs-faith battle. My opinion: this is a tough shot. Faith by definition is belief without evidence. So anything goes.

But in the present context (in India), the REAL question is: Should the state/government take upon itself to protect the culture/tradition and heritage of the native faith when it appears to be under threat from such zealots?

I don’t have an answer for this. But my gut feeling says that if you are dragging the state into protecting a faith system, you are getting into lot of trouble. I will wait for others to throw more light on this option.

Should conversions be completely banned?

How will you differentiate between genuine change of heart and a conversion? If individual liberty allows genuine change of heart, then you have a loophole. Complete banning – has potential to backfire. I am surprised that you are thinking along these lines.

As for permanent solution(s), might the ONLY permanent solution be for followers of such monotheistic, proselytizing faiths to abandon their proselytizing zeal?

This solution requires “change of heart” on the other side. We may have to wait for a long time, and given 2000 yrs of history this may never completely happen. I do have a one christian friend, and one muslim friend, who do not think it is their business to bother about other’s beliefs. Thats why I always say – some believers, not all. But they do maintain that I run the risk of confrontation on judgement day.

I am somewhat surprised that you consider this post as a rant. My purpose in posting the observation (twitter) was two-fold: 1] to expose the subtle propaganda and 2] to make others aware of such zealous proselytizing…

About ranting: I was broadly speaking about the comments you have received before or will receive from now on on this thread. Please, continue the good work of exposing the propaganda and increasing the awareness.

As for “lamp of rationality/reason”, I doubt that reason can replace faith – especially in a coumtry and society like India…

I wouldn’t remove this option from the table completely just because it is difficult. This is under our control, has potential to stay very positive in approach and is better than expecting monotheists giving up their zeal to proselytize. Again, this is my opinion and I don’t expect others to agree.

I have given this problem some thought and then I slowly realized one thing: Richard Dawkins and Carl Sagan can be a huge part of the solution than problem (some may consider them as threat to beliefs of hinduism). If you can see what I mean, then you know why I believe reason is potentially a permanent solution. Again, my opinion. 🙂

Anything else has the potential to be seen as a faith-vs-faith battle. Since academic dishonesty is not an issue for believers (Ex. creationists), this will never end.

Good… I hope we have new Mullastan and Popistan :-)) Let’s start the exodus to safer places like US, bear a Hitler and then mercy have a tiny state like Israel, surrounded by Chruchistan and Pakistan. Time to get a VISA or get converted to two religions of peace Islam or Christianity!!!

Shantanu,

This is “faith vs. individual freedom/choice” not “your faith vs. mine”. I hope this is clearer.

It is definitely clear to me.

From the point of a monotheist, individual choice/freedom is also a faith! Remember that individual choice in his life on this earth has no meaning. He’s driven by spending his eternal life in heaven. Plus, he’s genuinely concerned about others burning in hell.

The proselytizing aggression of monotheists bothers us. Exactly like that, others ignoring the “Right” message bothers some monotheists.

@Nikhil:
Its a sad truth that even in the 21st century we live a world where blind belief and dogma is a legitimate way to overcome such problems.

Despite all progress in science and technology, it is impossible to rid the world of religion. There is a theory behind why Buddhism (and to an extent Jainism) which were the most popular philosophies/faiths/religions once upon a time in India faded out – the lack of an idea of ‘god’ which Buddhism and Jainism either rejected or had an ambiguous stance on. Buddhism offered hope to the underprivileged, promoted an egalitarian and caste-less society and was popular among the merchant classes which were considered ‘lower’ in status by prevalent society. But eventually, the common man felt the need to turn to a supernatural power for hope in uncertain times eg. monsoons, birth of a healthy child, war, etc. This is when people are ready to subscribe to faiths with the idea of ‘god’ even if blind belief and dogma is expected.

I’ve not seen truly peace-ful teachings feeling the need to ’sell’ themselves and win converts e.g. Jainism and maybe Buddhism or even Zoroastrianism

Like marketing of any product, selling needs USP. Buddhism and Jainism had the USP of ahimsa during a period when animal sacrifices were in vogue. Once Hinduism was reformed and the importance of sacrifices/yagna decreased, these 2 religions lost their USP. Christian proselytism in India was based on freedom from the caste system. Islamic proselytism was mostly by sufis but since sufi thought was similar to Hindu bhakti, they lacked a USP and Islam was spread more by force than by proselytism. Zoroastrianism does not accept conversion to their religion at all!

IMHO, conversions should not be banned on the basis of the age-old Indian concept of religious pluralism. Speaking from the point of view of competitive marketing, those afraid of their own religion dying out to others should reform their religion eg. getting rid of the caste system in Hinduism, I think, will reduce the number of missionaries targeting India.

Article on caste and conversion
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?id=1155676617&type=ARTICLES

@Nishka,

It is an interesting article.

I know this is a contradictory fact but caste system cctually saves the infrastructure of Hinduism.

But I think it would be very difficult to detach the value judgement associated with the caste label. It should be easier to trivialize the label itself.

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Speaking from the point of view of competitive marketing..
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Competitive marketing happens in an environment where the rules are the same for all competitors and there’s an even playing ground. Makes it a lot difficult to compete when the dice is loaded against one party.

And, your comment that Hinduism should reform itself by getting rid of caste system, otherwise, too bad if the Abrahamic religions take over – is short-sighted as well as an instance of cutting the nose to spite the face.

I fail to see this equivalence you speak of, and neither do I buy your justification of the intolerance of Abrahamic faiths.

I seek to understand why so many good, decent, hard working christians donate money to their churchs to spread the message of gospel. This is the source for all activity. Tell me why they consider it a nobel deed to save the world? Isn’t it part of their belief system?

Intolerance is not the same as conversion. Neither do I have any intentions of justifying any intolerance. If you are saying that intolerance motivates conversion, then kindly make the case. I’m willing to learn.

Speaking from the point of view of competitive marketing, those afraid of their own religion dying out to others should reform their religion

I wonder if this is a feasible solution. Look at the effects of competitive marketing in Africa between Christianity and Islam. Leads to an arms-race-of-conversions! I’m not sure how you would regulate this marketplace also. My opinion.

Shantanu,
The reason that Hinduism is still strong in Karnataka (which is apparently in Dravidian land) is because of caste based mutts. These have kept people together. Also, once someone converts they are thrown out of the caste.
Additionally think of the Patels and Marwaris. Jati is a big factor in the prosperity of the community.
The Christians and Marxists know this. Breaking the Jati system will be the first step in homogenizing the culture. People who don’t have a strong Jati identify are most vulnerable to conversions.
Discrimination has to be removed but Jatis are very valuable. The two are not the same.

When we talk of Patels or Marwaris, we might be confusing between caste and community. Community-based cultural ties are strong even in non-Hindu religions eg. Gujarati speaking Bohra Muslims, Konkani speaking Mangalorean Catholics or Marathi speaking Bene Isreali Jews.

The caste system I spoke of is not the one based on community cultural ties but the one on which politicians perform ‘social engineering’, form Bhumihar/Maratha/Vokkaliga vote banks, divide tickets & ministries or play with OBC lists. A person from a Patel or Marwari has no incentive to convert because of high social standing and economic prosperity. But for a person from the Dalit caste or a tribal village, a conversion means a possibility of rise in socio-economic status and access to a place of worship which was lacking before.

@Anonymous (#30):

The need for psychological support in times of uncertainty (failing monsoons, whether i’ll have a child) is accepted as a legitimate need for a God and religious practices are OK for this..but not for being freed from deprivation and social and economic backwardness

My statement was made in the context of blind belief and dogma which is present in all religions. As for freeing from deprivation, here we can highlight the role of community ties within religions. No religion has a uniform community, even Islam or Christianity have various sects. For a tribal converting to say a particular sect of Christianity (Catholic/Presbytarian/Seventh-day), accepting a new faith is acceptance by a community which supposedly raises their socioeconomic status.

Looking at religions and their practice in free-market and marketing terms I’m afraid will encourage starting a war with several unethical practices and hostile take-overs

There are laws and safeguards to prevent unethical practices such as force, coercion and fraud. My point was on fair competition based on self-reform rather than conversion-based hostility.

Its interesting where our economic freedoms are concerned we welcome regulations and transparency but baulk at such ‘intrusions’ where our religious freedoms are exercised

I think we are living in a world where economic regulations have been drastically reduced as compared to the days of MRTP and License-Raj. Transparency is always welcome.

@Salil:
Do you really believe we have transparency in proselytizing and conversion activity – for both the convert and the public at large and for that matter sufficient protection from MNC type prolelytizers with money and promotional muscle… That’s news to me – would be happy to be educated

@Salil: “All I said is that transparency is desirable”
I now understand you better..I also agree that converting to a religious sect would improve feelings of community for say a marginalized tribal –
But to return to transparency –
How would one bring it? Looking from the marketing/free-market context “fair competition based on self-reform” as you put it – how does one expect that to happen given articles of faith Abrahamic religions espouse that include exhortations “to convert the non-believer” who will “rot in hell” if he resists believing their particular mythology. I don’t believe too many conversions will happen if free and fair criticism of religions is allowed in public discourse. But that goes against the concept of an article of faith. As a Christian I would never put up for discussion the virgin birth of Jesus or whether I should or shouldn’t spread the Word of God. So, how (if ever) this will happen is beyond me….Remember attempts by the Islamists to use the good offices of the UN to ban criticism of their religion!

Separately, I don’t think freedom of religion should extend to engendering conditions of fair competition (like a free-market) between competitive ‘faiths’ – this hardly seems to me a solution given its impracticality and non-level playing field (level of organization, funds)..Its also based on an assumption that all religions are proselytizing and those that aren’t should now begin to organize themselves (to protect their numbers) for this i.e. collect money, appoint and train preachers, and organize promotional activities…

Sarva-dharmam kutumbham and ‘all paths lead to the same goal’ is possible to observe where they are all inclusive spiritual practices and ‘mutual respect’ is possible – not where exclusive/separative articles of faith and commandments guide the follower

@Nikhil (#35):

But to return to transparency – How would one bring it?

Transparency in funding is possible, by asking all religious bodies to declare their sources of income. Someone pls correct me if I’m wrong, but places of worship are liable for tax, aren’t they?

Transparency in actual sermon is tricky – I guess it is only when people are literate enough that they will be able to make rational decisions about choosing a religion based on their own convictions.

how does one expect that to happen given articles of faith Abrahamic religions espouse that include exhortations “to convert the non-believer” who will “rot in hell” if he resists believing their particular mythology.

That depends on the awareness or knowledge about one’s beliefs. A gullible person is likely to fall for the heaven-hell scare, but an educated or self-aware person may not.

As a Christian I would never put up for discussion the virgin birth of Jesus or whether I should or shouldn’t spread the Word of God.

I doubt that. Many works of literature have questioned Christian beliefs, recent eg. being Da Vinci Code which questioned Jesus’s chastity. None of these are banned here or even in the Western world.

Remember attempts by the Islamists to use the good offices of the UN to ban criticism of their religion!

Yes, fair competition requires acceptance of fair criticism. To avoid criticism, reform is important.

I don’t think freedom of religion should extend to engendering conditions of fair competition (like a free-market) between competitive ‘faiths’ – this hardly seems to me a solution given its impracticality and non-level playing field (level of organization, funds)

My point on fair competition was directed to those who are afraid of other faiths encroaching upon membership of their faith and are bothered to do something. I disagree that there is a non-level playing field in proselytism. Take Hinduism for eg. – there is the richest religious center (Tirupati Devasthanam), several popular TV channels and plenty of popular religious cults in India and abroad (like ISKCON).

Sarva-dharmam kutumbham and ‘all paths lead to the same goal’ … is possible – not where exclusive/separative articles of faith and commandments guide the follower

True. When most believe that all paths lead to the same goal, there will be some who will exhibit & advertise their path as the best path. Fair competition calls for cleaning & beautifying your own path to make it more appealing and not dragging others to your path. In advertising, everyone does find faults with other paths but the end-consumer is intelligent to choose the path of his own which suits him the best.

@ Sanjay –

“Now juxtapose these three simple facts with responses to “Who is a Hindu” and the conflict between the two streams becomes obvious (not to speak of conflicts between Christianity and Islam!). These three simple facts need to be internalised by all especially Westernised, educated, “liberal-secular” folk who believe that all religions are equal”

While I agree with you on the above thought process, and I am fully aware of the driving force of evangelism in christianity, which is all about a (christian) duty to save others while it is all about subjugation in islam, are you then arguing for special protection for the “hindus” given the diversity of thoughts within hindu culture and religion?

And, if you are indeed arguing for such protection, may I direct you to the members of the Bombay Club who had similar sentiments about Indian industry!

Cheers

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Also, I do think that there should be an online national registry with all foreign donations received by any religious/charitable organisations, so that anyone can track flows – just like we do with FII and FDI investments. And, this has to be reported and updated in a timely manner – say, fortnightly. I think that should take care of half of the issues that people raise.
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As a classical liberal, I thought you were in favor of smaller government and less bureaucracy, not more. 😉 🙂

Dude mujhe nahin maaloom
I can just hypothesize that the caste has to give way to the 4000 odd jatis in India.
The jatis subsume the chatur varna and more (there are plenty of jatis that do not fit into the standard caste construct).

We see very little positive press around the jati system. We need to see more. Media will be the first place to start

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My point is: “True believers” will find a way to work the system since they are feel morally bound to spread the message.
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And the backing of overseas money makes it a lot easier to feel “morally bound” to spread the message and put up churches all over the place.

Patriot – Whatever made you jump to the conclusion that I’m arguing for a special status for Hindus? All I was saying was that one needs to know the canonical exhortations of the other religions to understand the conflicts inherent in Christianity vs Islam vs Judaism. Hinduism is pluralistic (eg even atheist views are accepted as in the Carvakas), secular (ie not exclusivist) and non-evangelical (resulting in respect for other religions). There are tiered layers of “authority” in every faith – the canonical texts, their interpretations and then the practice. The canonical texts of the Abrahamic religions explicitly sanction evangelism-conversions for example. This implies they cannot respect another faith, just tolerate it. Anyway, if you are really interested, we can have a separate offline discussion on the topic. Best, Sanjay

@ Kaffir –

“As a classical liberal, I thought you were in favor of smaller government and less bureaucracy, not more. 😉 :)”

I know you are taking my trip, but I am still going to reply 😉 because of the various misconceptions around the classical liberal/libertarian theories in India.

In India, currently we have a huge number of rules, regulations and laws, but extremely poor implementation. We need to reverse this – we need much fewer rules, with most stuff being on self-declaration and trust, and very strong implementation, if the trust is broken.

That is how you get to the small government from the huge mess that we have currently. And, as far as foreign inflows are concerned, it is a trivial matter to even report this daily – all the data is available electronically. I am sure you knew that but I just wanted to be sure that everyone else on this blog also does! 😉

We think missionaries are targeting India only and that also because we have caste system than think again. Here is how they are targeting Israel and Jews and many more countries. And the question still remains Why?

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&resnum=0&q=proselytization%20of%20jews&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

Christian missionaries have also targeted South Korea and other south-east Asian countries. There’s no caste system in those countries, AFAIK. I guess the apologists would point to poverty and/or other existing social ills in those countries as justification for Christian missionaries moving in.

Indian,

Yes, state govt must …
..also be supportive in fulfilling the needs of the individual.

Specifics please. What needs of the individual should the govt support?

Each state must be like a personal home of the chief minister

Do you recommend the chief minister act like a father figure responsible for the state just like his personal home? Again, specifics please.

@kk

Didn’t PM asked CEO’s that take less salary? What was he suggesting?

Govt must take strong initiative by asking public in helping to run food pantries, shelter homes(we have shelter homes but see the condition of it), women’s hostel,(again have anyone seen the management and condition of women’s shelter?) I recommend everyone to go once and take something with them to donate.

Asking public to take active part in it by donating used items, clothings, books, including cash or volunteering their time. Many retired govt or non- govt officials can volunteer their time if they want. Looking at the population and poverty we need more in numbers. Govt can advertise for it on TV that they have set up such stalls or whatever arrangement they have done for destitute people.

——Do you recommend the chief minister act like a father figure responsible for the state just like his personal home? Again, specifics please—

Is it necessary to look it as a father figure? what is that taking you there? just because I used the word personal home you got interested?

He should follow his dharma towards the state and nation without engaging in corruption, injustice, and anything that is detrimental to the state and the nation.

If you want anything that need to be explained just ask explain, not a dominating way of ‘specifics please”.

Shantanu, thanks for the alert. I realized that.

Indian,

This about this:

(A). You say, there are individuals who are seeking to fulfill their desires and wish to rise from bottom.
(I assume this is not the culture/heritage you want to preserve).

(B). You also say, missionaries are helping people in (A) [but are converting in the process].

Unless such people -(who wish to rise up and are not being able to) – is your heritage/culture, what exactly is your concern?

I would rather have them convert and but *do well in their lives* (“rise from bottom” as you phrased it). This is my personal choice. You are free to make yours.

Sorry this is the link

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With all sympathies for Shantanu… Effective solutions come by original thought process which is based on rationality and common sense… Persons who do not have original thinking and have tendency to monkey around or chimp around usually end confused, like you sound in your post which is a supposed reply to Salil.

This is for Salil, the neo missionary, as he himself accepts, for his nonsense utterances on Punjab and Punjabis.

One of the highest developed areas of India is Punjab and this is due to gut, determination, capacity to work. Separatism rose in the area due to secularism and one of the main contributors to the same is MK Gandhi and the politics of congressis. Read history before you type baseless craps. Today, if there is any schism or iota of dissatisfaction in Punjab, it is due to secularism and politics of congress. Punjab and Punjabis would have survived without India in 1947… Punjabis were not protected by Gandhi but by the sword… Punjabis have enough guts to fend themselves and feed hungry poor people… Walk into any Gurudwara and see how many visitors eating in Langar are Punjabis. Sikhism was founded by contribution of eldest son by each Punjabi family. Punjab is the one which fended off Moslems and showed the way.

Before talking about Punjab & Punjabis, Salil…remember that Guru Teg Bahadur was executed for not accepting mohammedanism.

…

VHP’s founder member is a Sikh, Master Tara Chand. In Delhi Riots, only organization which stood with Sikhs was VHP/ RSS. GURUDWARA/ MANDIR is the only place where you can pray they way you know to pray. If ou don’t knw how to pray, you can simply inhale the piousness that is there in Gurudwara and Temple and will still get satisfaction, peace, happiness…

@ The Preist

Very true! what you said about Punjab, Punjabis and Sikhism.

Shantanu, Indian, The Priest, kaffir:
I’ve read all your comments. Out of town this week, so will send out a detailed reply in a few days.

I much prefer these guys:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/new.york.subway.ads/index.html?eref=time_us

When people have stopped fighting over an accident of birth, maybe we will actually have a better world to live in. I can certainly dream of such a freedom for humanity.

What are you trying to address Vidhya: Is it Governance or Is it Religion?

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I much prefer these guys:

When people have stopped fighting over an accident of birth, maybe we will actually have a better world to live in. I can certainly dream of such a freedom for humanity.
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Same philosophy of {“my way is the only right way” as with the monotheistic religions} + {utopia attained (Thy Kingdom Come) when everyone sees the same truth that I see} – {God}.

@Shantanu (#69):

I dont think that your 1st 3 points and last one (1. 200 yr head-start for Christianity, 2. Competing faith does not know how to play the game, 3. Cheating by faiths 5. Christianity has vast resources) are valid in the argument for level playing field. Level-playing field refers to the present conditions of a neutral ground, not the relative strengths of the competitors. By level playing field I mean the conditions provided by the Indian Constitution, not the strength of support a religion possesses.

4. There is no level playing field because of a government (think of it as a referee) that in its zeal to prove its “secular credentials” (impartiality) either intervenes where it should not

This is a fair point. So the issue here is of true secularism by the government not giving subsidies for religious activities, collecting money from places of worship and siphoning money to religious. However I dont see anything wrong in Christian missionaries distributing pamphlets outside Tirumala if other religions are allowed to do the same outside churches.

On the issue of denigration of religion, here is a recent case of ‘denigration’ of Christianity by a comic book which actually depicts scandalous incidents of the bible (!) http://www.boingboing.net/2009/10/19/some-christians-mad.html
But does the government ban the comic book? No, because free speech and expression is valued more than religious belief.

Now about the point if the missionaries issue should be addressed at all:

(Gautier): … conversions attack a whole way of life, obliterating centuries of tradition, customs, and heritage and teaching people to despise their own native faith and adopt a belief system that is alien to them.

I agree that conversions change the way of life. However, lifestyle, customs, beliefs are choices made by rational individuals. Coercion to live a certain way is definitely abhorrent. For example, many Muslim women in villages of Maharashtra or Christian women in villages of Goa still practise traditionally Indian customs like wearing local costumes with a mangalsutra and fasting once a week. If they are told to do otherwise, then it is an issue of interfering in their freedom and that must be checked, rather than the issue of religious belief. It is probably easier to indoctrinate the uneducated with alien customs, so this can be tackled by education and encouragement of independent thought rather than prevention of proselytism.

About my remark about the scare of churches and the relevant data you provided, I agree, transparency into where the money is coming from is welcome. But if churches are built, they cannot sustain without local support, and local support is gained because the locals turn to missionaries for material benefit when the governments failed to provide education and development.

Level-playing field and Pakistan: I dont agree that there is a level-playing field in Pakistan which is an Islamic state and the government will obviously support Islam over any other religion.

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@The Priest (#71)

This is for Salil, the neo missionary, as he himself accepts, for his nonsense utterances on Punjab and Punjabis.

I never accepted that I’m a “neo missionary” where did you get that from? And what were my “nonsense utterances on Punjab”? The only thing I said was that some Akalis supported seccession in Punjab and that the issue is of community, not religion. Do you disagree with that? I’m aware of Sikh history and made no mention of Sikh-Islam relations. If you think my single statement that some Akalis supported seccession is “baseless craps” then let us know what was wrong in that statement.

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@Indian (#72)

Why they dont want to analyze it? Blindly follow what is written in the Bible? They must think this message is for who?

The way I see it, missionaries claim to perform their duty even if it may be incorrect. Doesn’t the Bhagvad Gita teach to do one’s duty even if it may be considered wrong by others? Just like a butcher kills animals because its his duty, a missionary preaches.

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@kaffir (#74)

I do see the intolerance of my-way-right-way ideology independent of Hinduism. As I’ve said above is that if the issue is of coercion to live a certain way, it should be addressed on those grounds rather than raising matters of them being against traditional culture.

I offer that no such equivalence can be drawn between “Hinduism” and Christianity, because “Hinduism” does not fit into the western concept of religion (doesn’t mean there are no similarities).

Point taken, I agree that they cannot be compared, but my point about building temples vs. churches was regarding the paranoia about building churches regarding which I’ve replied above.

At the end, all I’ll say is that the kind of attitude that you display is quite common among those who remain unaware of the positives of “Hinduism” and simply focus on the negatives.

This discussion was never about Hinduism. Do the positives of Hinduism have to be mentioned if negatives are mentioned to show an unbiased attitude? Otherwise you’re not only attacking a straw man but bringing attitudes into the discussion.

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On Monotheism:

Why are all monotheist religions equated with proselytism/intolerance? Zoroastrianism & Sikhism are monotheistic, but neither intolerant nor into proselytism.

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A general suggestion to all commenters here:
I find that most comments end up attacking the person rather than the content of the comment they reply to. This sort of ad hominem is classic behaviour when your argument is weak and you have to resort to hit out at a person to seem superior. A milder form is questioning the person’s background or attitude eg. if person A says “I think that ________” then B says “Your attitude is wrong / Its easy for you to say that when you dont do anything about it” instead of saying “I disagree because ______”. This doesn’t help the discussion and only creates unpleasantness. Lets resist from such attacks, shall we?

@Shantanu:

A. I accept I did take the literal meaning of level playing field. Competition is uneven, but the field is level. Competition will be even when one side (in this case Hinduism) will step up activities with as much intensity as Christian missionaries (minus fraud – that is unacceptable for both). Related to this is my reply to point C below.

C. Is competitive evangelicalism the answer? Not really – I dislike all forms of religious evangelicalism. But I’d say yes to competition instead of unconditional ban on speech or entry for missionaries. If the goal is to prevent Christian missionaries altogether, this, I think is the answer, instead of blanket bans.

B. I did not reply to points 1,2,3,5 of #69 because I thought they were not relevant to the issue of level playing field but of uneven competing groups. But I’ll respond here.

1. 200 yr head-start for Christianity: Agree that there is a head-start, but disagree that it matters, because I dont believe that the system of education has created a fertile ground to implant *only* their ideas and that tradition/culture gets less importance than Christian ideas.

2. Competing faith does not know how to play the game: Agree – Recent Hinduism has no evangelical thrust.

3a. Cheating by faiths: In case of the Dalits being asked to not reveal their conversion, I believe that reservation does not consider religion. There are Scheduled Castes in Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam and Sikhism.

3b. Hitting below the belt by denigration (also related to point D): I believe that Hinduism is far superior to be vulnerable to lies written in books written by random individuals lacking knowledge so much that a person would convert after reading a book. I’m reminded of Vajpayee’s remark about book bans, that the answer to a bad book is another book, not a ban.

5. Christianity has vast resources: Agree.

D. Back to denigration:
Yes, the link I gave about Christian comics is not equivalent to denigration of Hindu gods by evangelical groups. My point was about free speech being supreme, maybe unrelated to the topic of evangelicalism.

E. Re: your excerpt from Part III, am afraid I dont share the same sentiment, because I dont see only the Hindu feeling vulnerable but every common man. Like you mentioned a person from UP/Bihar feeling unsafe in Maharashtra – that is irrespective of whether he is Hindu or not. Exasperation is also caused by socio-economic reasons more than religious reasons.

As for practical suggestions: Since I believe that the root cause of conversions is socio-economic rather than sharper tactics by missionaries, tackling this is more worthwhile than banning missionaries from preaching. Development and employment by way of promotion of small-scale industry and education to foster independent thought and behaviour among the converting prospects. This answers the questions why missionaries are more successful in villages and tribal areas than in urban areas. At the same time, there should be zero tolerance on violence, coercion and fraud in the name of religion.

F. My apologies for misreading. The article points out that Christian missionaries are losing the battle due to Islamic competition. So did you mean that a level-playing field will cause a faith to decrease their attempts to spread (like Christianity in Britain) or that they will try harder to increase?

@Shantanu:

some oversight and some regulation
IMHO, oversight and regulation should be at a bare minimum of checking coercion & fraud. I dont support a ban on conversions and speech.

I am hinting at Macaulay and his minute here.

Point taken. But since do this came up in the context of fertile grounds for missionaries, do you propose going back to a pre-Macaulay education system? And if so, upto what extent? I know this is a different topic altogether, but I feel it is now difficult to reverse a few aspects from Macaulay’s minute like use of English as lingua franca, modern science, and modern civil law code which are not surviving just because of Macaulay but are also the need for present globalized times. If it means promotion of Indian art, culture and languages, I feel these are taught in sufficient measure and opportunities for those who wish to study them in detail are also available.

To the best of my knowledge it does (consider religion) – in case of SCs. There are no castes in Christianity and Islam

I was refering to this link which says that there are SCs in different religions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduled_castes#Distribution

Islam does have the Ashrafi-Ajlafi castes

Caste system in Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Indian_Christians

Not sure I agree with this (missionaries are more successful in villages and tribal areas than in urban areas). Any data? Kerala is a counter-example here. And perhaps you have heard of the term “Crypto-Christians” – which might explain the low numbers in urban areas?

I dont have data off-hand, but my statement was on the premise of where Christian missionaries are active the most in the present times, which is the tribal rural area where they promote their religion on the grounds of education & material benefits. I doubt they would be successful in places where literacy rates and economic levels are higher, what would they be providing there to make themselves popular? Education prevents being fooled by denigrating lies and economic levels prevent them from buying them off. If there is data that missionaries are as much successful in urban areas, it would be interesting to know why urban people would consent to converting.

Kerala is different because the majority of Christians there belong to the Syrian Orthodox Church brought by St. Thomas at least 1500 years before European missionaries arrived. Christianity in Goa & Mangalore area was mostly by coercion by the Portuguese. Most of the conversions in the tribal areas of North-east, Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh and Orissa were done by European missionaries.

Crypto-Christians – these are those who practise the Christian religion privately, but have Indian traditions and customs in public, right? So if there are Crypto-Christians in urban areas who believe in keeping their religion private and not changing their Indian lifestyle, what is the problem?

I was hinting at competitive evangelization here…which is very likely to lead to violence and further aggravation within communities.
I had made a case for fair competition. But in any case, I accepted in the previous comment that competition is not the most desirable solution but I’d prefer it to banning conversions and speech.

@ Salil/Shantanu –

I have been reading both your comments with a lot of interest.

I do think the starting point of both are different, which leads to different conclusions – (please do correct me if i am wrong)

Shantanu’s starting point is that “native culture and traditions” deserves innate and intrinsic protection – even if this is at the expense of free speech (and eventually liberty?)

Salil’s starting point is that free speech is protected, even if he does not like the end use of that free speech. He is asking for a more robust free speech response from the other party.

That is the basic dichotomy.

Cheers

Patriot,

Here again:

The Sign

=>
Wow!!! I will have whatever it is that you are smoking ….
=>
Funnily enough, I was thinking the same thing about you. 🙂

Alright. So tell me what was wrong with my comment.

The “atheism” that you are a proponent of has those characteristics I mentioned.

It has a striking parallel with the monotheistic faiths (no surprise there, since it is a reaction to them) in terms of “my atheism is the only right way”, you need more converts to your view (as was evidenced by your comment that “When people have stopped fighting over an accident of birth, maybe we will actually have a better world to live in.” disregarding that Hindus in India have been living in much harmony and giving shelter to Jews and Parsis without forcing them to assimilate – they don’t need your stupid “atheism”) and you have a view of utopia once xyz happens (more people join your “atheism”).

QED.

@ Kaffir –

“Yup. Instead of living in the present, keep living in your futuristic utopia – gives your beliefs a sense of purpose and meaning. 🙂
It’s a moot – as well as orthogonal – point since neither of us will be there if and when it happens. And I don’t live today based on conjecture or blind belief of what may or may not happen in far-away future.”

Ah, how we struggle, and how we try to deny …. and try to live in our current mode (of self-satisfied ignorance).

🙂

“I’m quite happy with my “live and let live” Hindu religion – as long as you monotheistic followers leave me alone and don’t want me “converting” to your blind faiths”

Of course, sure … whatever makes you happy, including name-calling.

“only someone ignorant would term disagreements and debates between different Hindu/Indic philosophies among scholars as “hatred””

Indeeeeeeeed. Disagreements between scholars, eh? Okay.

@Salil, Patriot: I am not somehow comfortable with free speech and conversions (as they go on today)going together..
Reason – free speech is based on values of individual freedoms that are foundational for an effective democratic process, which is the spirit in which our Constitution founders went about scripting it, and conversions are largely through a mechanism of evangelical brainwashing (many who are illiterate) which is further compounded by hermetically sealing the shift i.e. making it difficult to change one’s mind when one may want to… apostasy can be dangerous

I’ll be more comfortable with conversions in India where large numbers shift allegiances with the alacrity they show with political affiliations! Then i’d say the spirit of this is effectively free and individualistic

@Patriot: “That is usually the problem we face with free speech – as long as the speech is in consonance with our thoughts, we will support it….”

Where does this come from i wonder? Free speech is freedom to express oneself which is part of a democratic environment – religious conversions do not allow it with their articles of faith and we were talking about conversions with respect to religious affiliations or so i thought!

“brainwashing at home same as evangelical”
Wonder how this is relevant..an environment of free speech ensures questions get asked because of one’s interaction outside one’s family and home but would not be the case where there is no active criticism of faiths e.g.Taslima Nasreen. The same state actively protects religious freedoms and does little for free speech when the two clash, on grounds of religious sentiment and potential violence which the religious are quick to resort to

“Illiterate does not mean unintelligent”
Sure – but isn’t there a strong correlation between literacy and education? and education and capacity to act based on evidence-supported facts?

Honestly, your comments strike me as rather facetious – or maybe i’m just not getting your drift..

My point is giving primacy to freedom of religion should not be at the expense of promoting individual freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution, particularly where religion and freedoms do not mix, as oil and water

@ Nikhil –

“religious conversions do not allow it with their articles of faith”

But, that is not what we were talking about, were we – this is an attempt to confuse the issue.

The issue is that free speech also subsumes the right to preach (which is how people convert, I guess). So, I am upholding the free speech right of the missionaries to spread their gospel.

“Wonder how this is relevant..an environment of free speech ensures questions get asked”

You brought brainwashing of a particular religion (after conversion) into the picture, not me – so, I just showed you how brainwashing actually happens much earlier and much more effectively.

“there is no active criticism of faiths e.g.Taslima Nasreen”

Please do not mix up issues – the attacks on Taslima in India were an abomination on free speech, and law and order. The states of AP and Bengal failed to uphold public order – you should be pillorying them instead.

“but isn’t there a strong correlation between literacy and education? and education and capacity to act based on evidence-supported facts?”

Depends on which skill sets you choose to enumerate – we had this debate on a different issue as well – the “illiterate” villager will identify 50 different seeds to you and 100 different types of leaves just by visual intelligence – can you do this? They will also tell you the proper conditions for sowing of a majority of the different types of seeds – can you do this?

IF you answer no to the above, may I conclude that you are an idiot?

There are certain skills which are more easily gained through literacy – higher math skills for example. Certain types of logic, for another. But, there is no causative links between literacy and “intelligence”. There is certainly a causative link between literacy and modern IQ tests, but that is yet another story (there is a separate post on Shantanu’s blog on this issue)

And, evidence supported facts? Don’t make me laugh. Are you an atheist, then?

Cheers

@ Shantanu –

“I am not sure whether my starting point is “native culture and traditions deserves innate and intrinsic protection” or not…”

Let me assure you …. it is – your proof is here –

“Unless I am convinced that they are doing so openly, transparently, without insulting the native traditions, without denigrating native faiths, without inducements, without subtle influencing and without brainwashing, I will continue to feel anguished, angry, anxious and very very uncomfortable about it.”

This is clearly a proscription and a condemnation of free speech when it does not suit you.

Just because your side is unable to compete is no reason to proscribe the free speech of the opposing party. From there to a muzzle is but a short step, and then from there to tyranny is another.

I think the solution lies in either making sure that your side is better equipped to combat the issues that you raise or to stop carping about it.

I remember back in the 1980’s when the English Cricket Team could not compete with the West Indies Pace Battery and were being convincingly flattened at every opportunity – the English newspapers came up with a lot of humorous suggestions – such as that the Windies should bowl with one hands tied behind their backs, that if the English batsmen manage to get bat on ball, it would be a Four, and if it actually went for a 4, it would be counted as an 8, and so on ….

Your suggestions kind of fall in the same category, except that they are not humorous. I suggest that you figure out ways of helping your side compete better, rather than saying that specific rights should be curtailed.

I did not expect this from you, Shantanu, given that you are a member of Freedom Team.

Also, I have a suggestion, I would like your website to translate IPs into flags of the corresponding nations – I would actually like to see how many of our worthwhile commentators are based in India and how many are talking about protecting Indian traditions while being safely ensconced in a foreign land.

Cheers

@Patriot

I assume your comment is against all NRI’s

Though many are settled in foreign land they have taste of India. They have come across many issues back then in India what Shatanu is addressing. Leave India,do you think conversion propaganda is silent in foreign land? So what if some of them are out side the country, dont they have any right to preserve their tradition and culture?

You have gone too far now..in addressing the issue what other think is important and you think its not and targeting people who are not in India.

One side you talk about free speech but other side you malign people who wants to protect native culture.

Its about Hindus,Hinduism culture and tradition not about nationalism. Right! One dont have to be in the country to practice their culture and tradition.

As usual I find you rude towards other commentators. You must understand that you cannot debar anyone’s rights, views and opinions because they are residing in another country or having different stand not same as yours.

Free speech! Right!

@ Shantanu –

“All I am asking for is a mechanism to make sure that there is some accountability in the system and a way to address grievances.”

I am happy to hear that – I think the FTI policy on religious freedom and tolerance incorporates some of the above points. The issue, as always, will be the strict implementation.

“And let me repeat, competitive evangelization (as in “…the solution lies in either making sure that your side is better equipped to combat the issues that you raise or to stop carping about it“) is not an answer – it can (most likely will) lead to more friction and eventually violence.”

Maybe, you are right about the above on competitive evangelism causing friction – but, to ban the speech of evangelists is not the answer either. I would like to believe that we can evolve into a mature society where we can hear alternative viewpoints, without erupting into flames. In any case, restricting speech is not the answer.

So, I would wait for you and others to suggest other innovative measures.

And, I do not not think that resolving the IPs of the posters into their nation’s flag is a breach of privacy – and, it does provide us with greater info – so, why should that be bad?

Cheers

—–I will go even further and poke another finger in the eye of NRIs – I find many of them (not all) completely illogical and hypocritical when it comes to the question of native culture and traditions, etc.—

Good you recognize( not all), so what was it about? You want each and everyone to be the same?

—-IF, as a NRI, you would like to ban the christians from India and you would like to get muslims and christians in India to follow the “hindu way of life” in the name of protecting our native religions, traditions and cultures, then the very least YOU can do while being in European nations is to follow THEIR way of life.—-

I never thought your understanding of protecting native (indiginious) people, religion, tradition and culture is so limited. Why native cannot be protected without asking anyone to follow Hindu way of life? Who gave you this crazy idea of bannig christians and muslims and to follow Hindu way of life… Complete misundertanding.

— Do not go about planting temples in their land, and funding ISCON to go about converting poor, illiterate, innocent whites. Do not hold Diwali, Holi, Durga pujas, etc – all alien cutures and subversive to boot – in their lands—.

Why? Whats the problem? Why India dont have churches, mosques, gurudwara etc… I think they have gone one step further of converting people in large scale. Atleast NRI’s from India are not doing that in another’s country. NRI’s are from the land India, where they have been taught all religion are same and respect each and every faith. Their homeland is not only multicultural but multi faith. When poor whites can be innocent; than what about poor Indians who gets converted are well informed? NRI’s are not invaders and ruins the life of native people and land. They have earn the respect with great efforts. They dont care who follows what. They are happy celebrating Diwali, planting pace of worship, Holi and durga puja. Its none of the NRI’s business to poke someone’s else belief system. But they have all rights to protect and seal themselves if some one tries to poke their belief system same as missionaries have right to spread their faith.

Only those will think of protection who gets attacked not all. Sorry European countries are not under attack.

—–On the other hand, if you think that European and American liberalism allows you the freedom to practice your faith, plant temples, bring your priests and cultures to their native lands, while trying to influence their cultural mores and sensitivities, I do not think that you can complain if a few christian missionaries want to preach their faith in India, eh? How can you argue that India should be hermetically sealed from all these practices when you are taking your alien cultures and practices in their lands?—-

Wow…few christian missionaries..great information and want to turn deaf ears about their activities. When learned christians have already accepted this conversion propanganda as menace and you say its just free speech!

Learn more about how native, indiginious people are protected in their countries. A person can be penalized if does any harm to natives in some European countries.

dear all,

maybe one should read this site fully before we talk about evangelisation. in 1974 an International congress on world evangelisation was held at lausanne where preachers from more than 150 countries participated.

the next congress was held in manilla in 1989. the third is to be held at cape town in 2010.

http://www.lausanne.org/covenant

rgds/sridhar

“Western evangelists damaging established churches in India” is the report appeared in today’s (2nd Dec.) The New Indian Express.

Western evangelism should stop, says the Most Rev. Dr. Marthoma, Metropolitan of the Marthoma Church. A very sane voice indeed. The following paragraphs are very noteworthy:

“The situation has improved a lot,” he says. “The churches are being reconstructed. However, the old wounds are still there.” Dr Joseph Marthoma puts the blame on the vitiated atmosphere on western evangelism. “The drawback is that they denounce other faiths and cultures,” he says. “Theirs is a hit-and-run evangelism. They have no long-standing presence. They do great damage and the sufferers are the local, established churches, as well as the poor people.” The Metropolitan says that these groups should change. “They have the attitude that they are bringing the torch of light to the dark continents of Asia and Africa,” he says.

“But times have changed. They must understand that the only way forward is mutual respect. Because of their aggressiveness, the riots took place in Orissa.” He says the Mar Thoma Church has a mission at Khariar Road, in Nuapada district, just 150 km from Kandhamal. “We had no problems during the riots,” he says. “The local people, comprising mostly Hindus, were the protectors of our mission.” He proudly asserts that the 10-lakh strong Mar Thoma Church is an independent entity. “We do not take funds from foreign agencies for our maintenance and programmes,” he says.

The full report is available by following the link below :

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Western+evangelists+damaging+established+Church&artid=CKCltClm0XU=&SectionID=1ZkF/jmWuSA=&MainSectionID=fyV9T2jIa4A=&SectionName=X7s7i%7CxOZ5Y=&SEO=

I wonder why some people think banning coerced conversions or even conversion per se is against our democratic values. There are numerous democratic nations which have such laws, including Israel which explicitly prevents evangelical groups from targetting Jews and Greece, which seeks to protect the Greek orthodox church from evangelical protestant groups from the US. Both these countries recognize that the new evangelical groups pose a threat to their local religions and have taken steps to stop them. It seems only in India do we persist in being unable to name the enemy much less defend ourselves from them.

Let us be clear about this. Both Christianity and Islam view Hinduism as completely antithetical to them. And they are right. The Hindu world-view is completely in oppostion to a Christian or Islamic world view. It is time Hindus wake up to the fact that both these Abhramic religions pose a real danger to Hindusim and focus on strengthening their numbers and institutions.

Regarding the question of free speech, aren’t there laws in India which prohibit speech which can cause religious hatred? Or do these apply only when VHP rouses religious sentiments but not apply when priests villify Hinduism and ask their converts to denounce Hindusim and break Hindu images?

Some words from Julio Ribeiro. This is food for thought. He thinks the conversions today are different, and not like what conversions used to be:

My ancestors, like those of most Christians in India, were Hindus. True, I have a strange name. It is Portuguese in origin, but neither I nor the numerous other Christians sporting Portuguese surnames like Fernandes (George is a friend of the BJP) have any Portuguese blood. Our ancestors got these surnames when they were baptized and the surnames were those of the different clerics who officiated at their initiation. Was force or coercion used? I dare say it was. If not force, then certainly coercion. Lure of land, I learn, was the main instrument of that coercion. All land was appropriated by the conquerors and only those who converted retained their share. This, I dare say, was a powerful attraction….

Read the whole article, it is though-provoking and debate-provoking.
http://richardrego.wordpress.com/2008/09/29/the-testimony-of-one-christian-julio-rebeiro/

Foul and most devious way to convert !!!

http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=9830&SKIN=C

I went thru the Postio of Julio Riberio. It is a missionary statement which has got source of origins from Christians of United States of America. The same people who wiped out people with faith native to America wih their winchester rifle and went ahead washing sins of Christians whom they call as “Westerners”, for convinience. One can read similar thought provoking Christian Missionary Statements @ http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155. The funny thing is that the writer of article Lisa Miller compared the mental evoluton of Christians to “Hinduism”, a term coined by westerners to denote people with faith native to India so they could express their Christian love against not humans but HINDOOS. Most of Julio Love is contained there in comments of American Christians, who have failed to evolve mentally.

“Our kids have new names, go to church. We don’t even know”

http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/dec/071209-children-christian-conversion-unaware-parents.htm

Please take a look.

@ Salil… And I forgot to add that Julio post is nothing but supporting Christian propaganda machinery in name of love… Healthcare, education etc, something which even you like

It is interesting to note that both Prof, S.N Balagangadharan and Radha Rajan point out that secularism has actually been cloak, a disguise by which Christians have pushed essentially values of the Christian reformation onto a non-christian population. In India, Shri Balagangadharan states, we have essentially not understood the terms used to define us, nor their historical context.

An example of this is the freedom of religion enshrined in the U.N charter on Human rights. There, it is explicitly states the right to propogate religion. Yet the rights of native populations to practice their native religions without being harrassed or troubled or coerced in anyway by non-natives is not recognized as a right.

The language of demanding rights as opposed to having mutual agreements within society to fulfill obligations, is itself a product of Christian thought. Within the Hindu society, there has traditionally been a system of obligations. Thus a King has the duty to rule fairly. The warrior the duty to fight for the nation; the husband the duty to provide for the family, the wife to take care of children and the elderly etc.

It has long been the custom of evangelical movements to identify groups have been impoverished or in some way underserved and create in them a sense of victimhood. We see this in various underhand schemes hatched by missionaries. An example is here

http://www.dailypioneer.com/222182/Fraudulent-conversion-of-minor-girls-Brazilian-missionary-in-dock.html

*** COMMENT EDITED ***

These Christian Missionaries…spread…stories of lies of white supremacy and exaggerated, British/ European Christians founded stories of Casteism while the entire world knows, whenever there was a war imposed on India, common people were never asked to fight or the warriors of India never hid themselves behind unarmed civilians and fought the war. Also, somehow, the stories of casteism are not found in documents of Chinese travelers and also Moslem travelers.

Salil would love this Christian Love for non humans @ http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155/output/comments/

*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

This discussion is in danger of degenerating into a personal slanging match. Pl. be considerate in your comments…Rage (or personal attack) on its own is rarely going to solve anything.

Let us keep the discussion civil – sharp by all means – but polite – and on topic.

*** COMMENT EDITED ***

Casteism as portrayed by Christians is something which was practiced by Christians.

…India never had casteism. Varnas and Jatis are not casteism, like Dharm is not religion. False sense of superiority due to clouding of knowledge is at the best Bigotry not Casteism. India never had religion…

The term religion and Hindoo to faith native to India was given by Moslems and Christians. Dravidian theory, Aryan Invasion theory are all Christian theories and a Christian theory is based on premise of superiority of Christians

*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

@ Rohit: Pl. be careful of what you write. I want this blog to be a place for civil discourse NOT name-calling or scoring cheap points by personal abuse or ridicule. And pl. be mindful of your language.

@Rohit:

Neither does that link explain your unsubstantiated statements about foreign travelers talking about caste nor does it accept the sad fact of varna-jati based discrimination. How about sticking to facts while making arguments rather than basing them on someone else’s thoughts?

Caste is the English word used to refer to the varna-jati system. This is a reality and not just a “theory”.

The way you generalize Christians talking of “Christian theories are based on FALSEHOODS and LIES” is of the same caustic tone as a Macaulayan generalizing Hindoos.

Assuming you’re being sarcastic, can we have the citation/reference from where you got the info about foreign travelers and caste? And also with reference to the Ribeiro article where exactly in that article any hint where he advocates conversion to Christianity?

“Neutral Umpiring Please”. Shantanu, you seem to be harsh on any anti-hindu comments, while very soft of outright rude comments made on other faiths.

I somehow left the first part… I would like to answer it the other way of logic… Caste was a word which ORIGINATED in India, I guess from Varna Jati as you said earlier and we should rely on Christian texts written by Christians because god was witnessing them as they composed stories about India… My mistake I should have assumed thugs of East India Company, as the name denoted India in between, were Indians and we of course were foreigners.

I don’t know why stupid Indians still don’t understand these Christian inventions like Caste. Even whites are willing to learn, see my incident few years ago and the link that is embedded in it – about American Caste system!

http://myexperimentsagainstprejudice.blogspot.com/2008/08/ibm-incident-and-dialog.html

Rohit, I think it’s best to ignore stealth Christians with Hindu sounding names. Christian love is indeed the only type that kills.

@Chetan

You got hurt learning about strong Patels and Marwaris. Right! Oh ya!

Are you talking about patel and marwari who are fool and dumb friends of yours? For your info your friends were not real patels and marwaris. And talking about Marwaris? I doubt on your words?

———-This is one sick site. ‘Reason’ has been thrown out of the window even before discussion starts. Most of the Hindu mongeres here are saying things in emotions, even when all their comments have no validity——-.

Chetan you will not be succeeded in your mission of conversion here because public is alreday enlightned so no need to go into unnecessary discussion. And what made you to comment here when comments have no validity?

@ Salil,

There is no point in arguing with one person: Religious torch bearer. Let me again give it a try thereafter, I hope to simply copy paste this comment, because your question will be repetitive. I was wrong in reading Julio post. He seems to be talking about something other than Christianity over there. Since he is talking about something other than Christianity, he can talk about anything but Christianity. Now Christianity is unlimited, numerous books, unlimited philosophy, unlimited ways of spirituality. Since he is talking about unlimited things, he somehow seems to be talking about universal love. Since this is universal , unlimited love, he is extremely different from Missionary, who has only got limited resource of reference when asked about things like violence, bigotry, casteism, racism, lies etc. You seem to be a fan of Christian history… Earth is flat, Jerusalem is center of universe, casteism, aryan invasion theory, red indian theory, aboriginal theory, negro theory… Again no point in arguing with someone who likes Christian theories… Travelling back in history, Buddhs didn’t term it as casteism… But again they were not Christians. Jainis didn’t term this as casteism… But they were again not Chirstians. Sikhs didn’t term it as casteism but again, they were not Christians. At the best Jati Varna system can be said to be deterioration to bigotry with advent of weakening of Kshatriyas, but this is not true, casteism is the word to describe Jati Varna system because CHRISTIANS said so and CHRSITIANS are by birth honest and they came to India to get us rid of CASTEISM otherwise, they were happy, rich, content, peaceful and when CHRISTIANS left, we became the most PROSPEROUS NATION of world, thanks to Aryan Invasion Theory, Dravidian Theory, Casteism theory. Of this caste theory is peculiar. Caste was used by Dutch to describe themselves as SUPERIOR CREATURE but somehow this became applicable on India… How because Christians wanted to get rid of Casteism and casteism therefore belongs to India and rest of world never had casteism… Why because Christians said so and we know, in this world, only Christians speak truth, rest are liars.

@Shantanu:

The italics tags dont seem to work, so parts of my comments where I have quoted someone else might appear to be from my comment!

This is a bunch of anti-nationals creating suspicions in the minds of vulnerable and creating communal discord.
It’s because of mad fellows like you there is so much of hatred and restlessness in India. You are abusing the net to spread your lumpen ideology.
Christians and Muslims are people of the place. Just like us. Among us, upper castes are aliens – came conquering and keep enslaving us still! At least, the British came educated us and left the country; so did the muslim rulers did contributed to the cultural heritage and left the country. But what are these lumpen-fundamentalists doing? Creating problems for everybody?
Just this: don’t create hatred among people!

@Manohar!! You are so foolish and naive and ignorant of history. You need only to be sympathised. God should give you some sense. I ask you just one question; think honestly; what if muslims form 51 percent of the population of this nation. Will the constitution of India in its present form be valid. It will be torn and thrown in the Arabian sea and We will have an Islamist state. The history of the war and blood shed the world over is history of these two relegions fighting each other yelling my God is greater than yours

So get real ; the peace and tranquality that you are enjoying is because the base of Indian nation is Indic . Chang this and see the fun.

You seem to be a typical shallow thoughtless well tutuored sham secularist. Do begin to come out of it and use your brain