Should we ban foreign funding of religious institutions?

Yes we should not only ban funding for the above mentioned cause but also remove the word secular from our constitution and make it clear that we are a Hindu state. Conversion by any means should be banned and should be made punishable by law. This should be done irrespective of what the world thinks about it as we need to protect our values and heritage from constant barrage of nonsense from the west. Isn’t it incredible that we study moral science and english literature in India and our students are unaware of our own rich literature.

This needs to be done as the long term consequences are going to be very sever if we do not.

How do we, the people, go about getting the GoI to ban it?
Any ideas? PILs would not be sustainable, IMHO.

Ramdas Lambs articles Must be read

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/heaven_is_overrated_1.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/pope_benedicts_karma.html

This is a mind boggling expose` on conversions. It would be interesting to investigate if some of these stupendous amounts are diverted to buy “paid news” or even buying silence of some sections of the press. The way some of the main stream English media blew Kandhamal out of proportions by projecting partisan views while keeping Lakshmananand assassination on low key are some indications.

Shantanu,

The problem can be broadly categorized into three distinct questions:

1. Should we ban foreign funding for religious conversion?
YES.

2. At present, can we ban foreign funding for religious conversion?
No, not possible. Some of the top chairs in most important policy making bodies as well as English Media are occupied by Evangelists. The attitude of the supposed minority would amuse you too. I was engaged in a debate with few Keralite Christians who are members of other Christian sects. They expressed their dissatisfaction with Evangelists but showed unwillingness to offer any support or criticism for them. It appeared to me that they would not have complained if Evangelicals were supporting their sects.

3. So, what needs to be done, if we can not take the obvious steps?
Unfortunately, I can not see a very good answer to this question. Hindus appear to suffer from a strange twisted form of Stockholm Syndrome. There is a characteristics of tolerance latent in Hindu belief. However, tolerance is not same as cowardice, secularism is not a synonym for confused inaction. History shows that even a small group of focused and resourceful group of people always win against larger but weak, lazy and procrastinated adversaries. Our main problem is not the evangelists, but the supposed Hindu geniuses who would continue to act like crabs in the boxes where all crabs ensure none gets out.

A few of us have the right knowledge, but the attitude of a larger Hindu society did not change from the attitude of Rajputs under Islmic rule: majority either believes that conversion did not happen or they believe if it is happening, then it is happening to their neighbors, they will not be impacted. Wait, till you see more comments and then identify the patterns.

For those, who are protesting the idea of a Hindu state, may I know how and where a Hindu state would force people to create domestic war? India was mostly a combination of Shaivite, Vaishanvite, Tantric and Buddhist state powers before Turkish Islamic sword landed on the subcontinent. Can you tell me a single incident where these states went to war with each other because of their belief systems? One may argue that religious minorities would not be agreeing to the idea of a Hindu state, but if there really is a Hindu state, then it would be a liberal state because when you are a good Hindu, you are a liberal. In our case, temple owners/priests were never responsible for domestic policies or foreign policies, thus we never needed the western certification of separation of Church and State. Therefore there is nothing in a Hindu state, that is in direct contradiction of idea of a secular state.

Waiting for your next installment.

Oh! Arjuna , there is no such thing as victory or defeat , it is Dharma which must triumph” says Lord Krishna in Gita. So there is no such thing as stealing or cheating. If it is for Dharma ALL IS WELL.

About Prof Ramadas Lamb. Here is an interesting web site run by him

http://www.ramnam.net/. Please explore this web site. It is interesting. See the links site also in the left side.

Guess, what kind of Manual are the following extracts from?

‘but to rely exclusively on it is like going to war with only artillery; it packs a punch but it’s big, unwieldy and very costly. What is needed to compliment the artillery is a fast, agile, lethal team of Special Forces who, before the army shows up, can move behind enemy lines and wreak havock on the enemy’s infrastructure. Thus, we believe that training national leaders to field and support their own team is a necessary tool for completing the Great Commission’
Check this:
http://www.aims.org/msfo.php

Now, how you bring in the ‘HARVEST’? Read:

‘observed the local fishermen rowing their small boats out to sea. As they began to throw their nets out over the water I realized that these men were fishing the same way Peter and James did in their day. Below: Fisherman on the Indian Ocean Once the nets settled into the sea they began the task of pulling them back in. As they began to pull there were only two groups working, one group was on the far side of the beach and the other was positioned immediately in front of me. As they worked their nets the two groups slowly drew closer to each other. While they did this other fisherman, in an effort to drive the fish into the nets, slapped the water and shouted excitedly. As I watched this event I could hear the Lord whisper, “See, this is how you bring in the harvest.”

http://www.aims.org/mslh.php

Dear Shantanu
I refer to your post “Weekend Reading: Indonesia Special” dated March 20, 10. It is the same case here.

Sanjeev said :

“But please do not even dream of making India a ‘Hindu’ state! That will be the end of India and the birth of a most disastrous phase in the history of India as a sub-continent. Let’s not destroy India. Let’s foster freedom, above all. I seek to protect freedom in India (and its sovereignty). Let’s not make such wild suggestions (about Hindu state) which will merely create civil war and create a total exodus of good people out of India.”

– Why does the mere suggestion of a Hindu State invoke such fear? I suppose there must be a rationale’ somewhere and at some point in the present and past(?)

So perhaps Sanjeev can let us know.

Thank you

@Palahalli,

There is no disagreement with what you said. This line caught my attention:

“So Hindus need to decide if they want:”

Hindus, for a long time have not decided what they want. In the past, Turks/Afghans/Mughals decided for them and later Europeans decided for them. Now-a-days, “secular”s and Sonia Madam are deciding what those “Hindu”, “bigot”, “dehati”, “illiterate”, “in-secured”, “losers” (to quote some of the English Media geniuses) want. The trend is not going to change any sooner. If Hindus want their faith to exist on the face of the earth, they need to work for it. If not, then in future, few temples in west and places like Cambodia would be the only proof that there existed a civilization called Hindu civilization.

@Anand,

I appreciate you taking your time and adding to the discussion here while most from your community would come here to accuse us of being “unreasonable” and “fear mongers”. Here is my point of view:

1. point 2: fundamental character -> I may agree. Sanjeev really needs to expand on “fundamental character” thing. I do not think he believes that India’s fundamental character has anything to do with Hinduism.

2. point 1 &3: purchasing converts, point a -> Are not pastors part of big organizations?
point b -> How does that matter what they declare? Are they accountable towards their declaration in any way?
point c -> Were not Indians treated medically before evangelicals built their hospitals? The christian schools make it mandatory to read Bible or Bibilical stories as part of their curricula. In certain places where parents are not concerned, they also teach their version of creation as opposed to evolution. Spreading ignorance in place of the education – what sort of charity work is this?
point d -> NRIs are NRIs, there is nothing Christian or Hindu about them. But foreign funding needs to be regulated.
point e -> such as?
point f -> I may agree about Jesus’s message. So why do not Pope declare the purchased converts as unacceptable? Did it ever happen? No? So, one have to conclude that “few big” organizations take “unscrupulous” methods and use message of Jesus as a front. And the holiest organization of the biggest christian sect does not have a problem with that? Why is this complicity and then claim of the Christians in private that they really do not support such tactics? Apparently what you say and what you do does not match.

3. point 4 &5 -> I think we can agree that carbonated water and religion are not same thing. Thus the comparison does not hold. But, then, “but does a truly free person not have the right to decide which religion he will follow and for what reason?” I think you agreed that newly converts are somewhat more loyal to the outside interests and outside interests are hell-bent on seeing the competing religion wiped out. So, if tomorrow, 50% of Indians become newly converts, does the freedom of another 50% to choose their religion stay intact? This is not a hypothetical question. One have to look at Rwandan genocide in nineties and the role of Roman Cathloic Church in the killing of Tutus and then answer. As a Hindu, I do not want my future generation to become the subject of another wikipedia article on genocide.

4. point 6 -> I welcome inter-faith dialogue, although I can not see how would that counter the mischiefs being played right now.

@sid

thing i forgot to mention was that though i am by birth a Christian, i am an agnost, and believe that the state should maintain an equal distance from ALL religions.

Also, i believe that it is high time there is a serious dialogue between religions, speaking truth, and accepting faults.

purchasing converts

a–> not necessarily, for example a pastor belonging to shalom pentecostal church is technically part of shalom organization, but in real life his own boss. the money most probably goes into his own pocket. basically how can you stop money coming in from outside to churches? they can claim that it is needed for sustaining pastors..

b–> how does cutting off money make them accountable? it will just turn public opinion against us. to make them accountable, either thy need to be brought under a legislative authority, in which case all temples and mosques and hndu charitable organizations will have to be, too.

c–> most hindu schools make children recite shlokas from hindu scriptures, and often teach bits of their own breed of Hinduism too. by your argument, what sort of charity is that? religion should be eradicated altogether from schools, not just Christian or Muslim ones.

as for healthcare in india, think again what will happen if some of the best hospitals in india are shut down overnight? and what evidence do we have that hospitals lead to purchased conversions?

e–> CMC vellore, has distanced itself completely from evangelical jargon, even though they have “chapel” wing, it does nothing but show Christian movies and distribute pamphlets, because it is committed to medical care and is judged by strict academic/medical standards. there are many uch organizations.

f–> it is in the nature of religions to eventually embrace violence and violate their own basic principles. the catholic church has centuries of history in doing all sorts of shi* hardly the people one should expect honesty from. i do not want to point fingers and start off on a tangent, but the hindutva movement in India doesn’t exactly have a stellar human rights records.

point 4-5
in the sense of what i am trying to say, there is no diff, but even if my simile is broken:
how will india ever 50% turn Christian? in spite of “centuries” of subterfuge and “forced conversion” as claimed, Christianity is still a minority. and by implying that 50% turn Christian you are saying that there is a chance that 50% of the people of india, hinuds, can be “purchased”?

you need to realize that conversion in india comes at a very high price, you are ostracized, culturally and socially cut of from your family and often marginalized in your community, so unless there is an overwhelming reason, people dont convert. would you convert for a billion dollars? why assume that the majority of Indian Hindus are less hindu in their convictions than you? and if they are, what makes the hindutva-vadis of today their ambassadors?

was the way of preventing rawandan genocide to have promoted another religion? i think we are way far off from reaching rawanda. and if we start now, we will never reach there.

I would loath it too to see the glorious tradition of inda being taken over by anything, but to prevent it is not by turning ito a religious tate, but be turning truly secular.

point 6 considering what i have said, what sort of legislation would we be abel to enact that would stop foreign money from purchasing people.?

anand

@Armchair,
Keeping the history of Hindu kings/monarchs/warlords in mind, would you clarify how the freedom of minorities were affected under their rule? If I take Sivaji’s state as an example or Ranjit Singh after his time or Bappa Rawal before his time, please explain how the rights of the minorities were affected. If the secular state could protect Hindu rights and noticed about Hindu grievances, the term political hindutva would cease to exist. But that did not happen, did it? I do not believe Hindu interests and the interests of a non-proletysing minority are mutually exclusive. We are not an exclusivist Abrahamic sect that would not like any other form of worshipping possible. We actually encourage multiple ways of worshipping the same God. How is “all paths to God are equal” i.e. fundamental tenets of secularism any different from this?

@Ranga, my saying i was a Christian was an explanation, relevant to this conversation, i am also a keralite, a citizen of the world and other things. the only defense of my nationalism i need give is in what i say and do, not what i declare.

3- a, b I agree India was a picture of tolerance, it still is, and to maintain it so,and remove the taint of pretend secularism, we need to remove religion altogether from governance. the democratic form of govt today is not the same as the one in the glorious past you speak of.

a Christian humanitarian organization working to create lasting change in the lives of children, families and communities living in poverty and injustice”

how does one LEGALLY prove that this organization is actually a front for purchasing souls? I am not a supporter of this organization, merely asking to prove a point, that no govt agency can and should regulate religious activities unless they are turning anti national in the legal sense. this will just lead to the situation that exists already in India. govt. meddling in Hindu affairs are commonly blamed for the state of Hinduism in India, and the state of the temples etc, why would you, a believer in religious equality, have the same fate come to Christian organizations?

-c i hve not said anything of that sort. i have raised specific points, how clearer can i get?

pt-4 what is this “Christian economic aggression” you speak of? it so happens, in a debate, the person who brings up a new term or makes an allegation is the one who has to prove it. not me. so, explain and prove please.

the points i have not answered, i do not understand.

also, please do not imply, as in your very patronizing closing paragraph, that just because i am a Christian, i am less of a bharata varshi than you. how long i have been a Christian has nothing to do with how much i love this country. please do not address me like a child, i am not one, and i am quiet well read about everything i care about, thank you.

Anand–> Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

@sid, you have a real significant point there

I do not believe Hindu interests and the interests of a non-proletysing minority are mutually exclusive. We are not an exclusivist Abrahamic sect that would not like any other form of worshipping possible.

in my interaction with the hindutva vadis of today, few seem to understand this, and in fact i would go on to say that the political hindutva movt of today is starting to resemble the conservative evangelical movt of the west, turning the exclusion way.

i don’t think it is fair to say that there was no other option, the hindutva politics could have taken the path of dharma, and inclusive politics and shown by example that they are in the right, but they didnt, it became a matter of power and exclusive-ism and appeasement.

it is also high time Christians and Muslims also wake up and realize that an India in which Hinduism is destroyed is a bastard civilization, and return to peaceful co existence.

the legislative bit that can be done is, asking christian humanitarian organizations to allow peer review, let what they be transparent, let hindu organizations audit what they do and let christian orgs audit hindu ones.

Here is a non govt way of bringing an end to purchased conversions.
let hindu national bodies, (not the vhp) but the religious ones, call to main christian representatives, (not the minority commission) for a consensus on “money for your shoul” and then, via religious means, increase awareness about co-operation, let this coalition then take it upon themselves to create transparency and openness. it must be granted of course that non coerced conversions are acceptable.

what say?

anand

@Anand,

1. purchasing converts -> point a => Large scale money transfer always leaves trails, in a world paranoid of terrorism, nearly every country has a mechanism to monitor them. It is indeed possible to regulate large scale money transfer if there is right intention.

2. purchasing converts -> point b => “in which case all temples and mosques and hndu charitable organizations will have to be, too.” Please make some informed comments. Temples are already under a ministry control. This is secular state for you!!! Besides, how are missionary organizations and Hindu charitable organizations same? We do not have any concept like “Conversion” in our religion, neither does exist concept like “Baptism” without which even a man who follows Christ’s treaching can not call himself Christian. Hindu charitable organizations are not out there to buy converts

3. “most hindu schools make children …. what sort of charity is that? “ – I would like to know which schools teach slokas to children? What sort of children understand slokas from Vedas (last time I checked several intellectuals spent their lives explaining them). Have you attended such and such schools? Do they also teach Vedas/Gita/Upanishad in the sciences curricula? As I said before, please come up with some informed comments. If you do not have them, stay away from things that are not truth. As far as I know, that was Jesus’s message too.

4. “think again what will happen if some of the best hospitals in india are shut down overnight?” – Let us hear about those “best hospitals”. This is truly the grandest information, that our ancestors did not have any healthcare before Christian missionaries landed in India.

5. “and what evidence do we have that hospitals lead to purchased conversions?” – I have one. Missionaries of charity. Christopher Hitchens took deep pain to document that while cancer patients writhes in pain in their hospital, our “saint of calcutta” denied them access to medicines believing suffering leads them to God, her God that is. The same saint would go to America to treat her own ill health, her God apparently did not need her own suffering.

6. CMC Vellor was not found as an extension to the church, it was found as a medical college. Today it is a good college not because missionaries run it, but the institute care for excellence and it employs doctors without any care for their religion. They can have as many churches or chapel wings they want as long as they do not follow the predatory techniques of missionaries of charity.

7. “but the hindutva movement in India doesn’t exactly have a stellar human rights records.” – It does not. It does not because those gentlemen who, over time, acquired the patent over human rights movement did not exactly treat Hindus as human. So you are saying that one can not expect honesty from the holiest orgnaization of Christian Sect and that is ok because some Hindus killed some Christians some time back? Also, just because some Hindus killed some Christians (and got killed too) all Christian activities in India are perfectly alright?

8. “how will india ever 50% turn Christian?” – I have a better question to ponder: how did Nagaland turn 90% Christian? Or Meghalaya? How, after learning message of love and peace, they learned to unleash those lovely and peaceful messages over unsuspecting people of Assam, Manipur and Arunachal Pradesh? After all, the “peaceful” excercise of spreading those messages today are called north-eastern insurgency. You may also like to note that, Nagas and other tribals stayed with other Hindu tribes in the past centuries with relative peace and the insurgency grew only when message of peace and love was spread very widely.

9. “and by implying that 50% turn Christian you are saying that there is a chance that 50% of the people of india, hinuds, can be “purchased”?” – No, even Americans do not have that kind of money. But, as History told us in relation to the Portugese inquisition in Goa during 1560 – 1842, once a good majority is achieved, those marvelous believers of peace and love can “inspire” the heathens to take a leap of faith specially when believers are equipped with overt/covert support from foreign land.

10. “people dont convert. would you convert for a billion dollars?” – I may not. Would you? WOuld any Ram or Anand or Shantanu? If they do not have money? If they require an expensive operation? If they need money to invest in desi liquors every month?

11. “why assume that the majority of Indian Hindus are less hindu in their convictions than you?” – Did I claim that? One difference exists however. I am not easily bullied, most are. When fire-breathing TV journos spend hours in criticising how “Karva-chauth” is superstitious but “burkha” has so many advantages or the ritual of “cleansing” is such an advanced thought, one believing in the “karva-chauth” is easily bullied because nobody is there to present his answers or justification. The state of sacred secularism is indeed great.

12. religion should be eradicated altogether from schools, not just Christian or Muslim ones. – We are not the ones with Sunday Bible schools or Madrasas. Let me know how banning the Madrasas are coming.

13. “but be turning truly secular.” – In case you did not notice, the Indian constitution has a “secular” word in it. How does this state uphold secularism? Why, by taxing Kumbh Mela pilgrims and subsidising Haj and Jerusalem pilgrimage. If a nation has to turn truly secular, every leader actually have to be a committed athiest. In our case, our leaders are true anti-Hindus, becoming athiest would make them loose the pious minority votes.
The secular American government keeps funding those overseas groups that work against birth control. Pretty secular actions, I am sure.

The truth is that the tolerance is what is needed, not an intolerant secularism. Tolerant secularism is just impossible to implement, the concept of tolerance must be built inside the religious framework because it is the religion that man grows up with, not secularism. My own religion is very tolerant, this is why minorities survived in states governed by pious Hindu kings (do you have a counter examples?). How did Christian Europe or Muslim mid-east treat minority Jews until very recently?

14. “what sort of legislation would we be abel to enact that would stop foreign money from purchasing people.?” – Please look at point 1.

@Sid

Re your question about life for minorities under Hindu rulers. I think you and I are using different definitions of “Hindu state”.

To me, if there’s a Hindu ruler, that alone doesn’t make it a Hindu state. If the ruler doesn’t interfere with religious life, that’s a secular state. I don’t know whether Shivaji interfered in peoples’ religious lives, but if he didn’t his rule was secular. If you define based on the ruler, India is currently either a Sikh state or a Christian state (depending on whether you believe Manmohan or Sonia is ruling) and there are no states that don’t have a state religion (unless the ruler is agnostic/secular in personal life).

To me a state is a Hindu state if and only if Hindus are somehow privileged over other religions. If they are not, I think any arguments about this are moot. If they are, then it’s true by definition that non-Hindus are less free.

[To me, “less free” includes mild forms of non-freedom. For example, if the govt declared it would only celebrate Hindu festivals, some might argue this doesn’t hurt non-Hindus. I disagree with that.]

No 14 SKS Mumbai here is an article by Pradip Thomas in Ishwar Sahran archive . IS is Swami Devananda Saraswathi , a Canadain settled in TN . His web site is huge. Read this
http://hamsa.org/pradip.thomas.htm

@SKS mumbai, thank you

I now realize that my metaphor was deeply flawed and agree to your analysis about evangelism being the most unregulated of corporations.

@ sid, i dont understand why we are suddenly antagonistic, i hope i have been clear that i do not in any way support foreign money for Indian religious activities, particularly those that lead to purchased conversions.

i am sorry i came out too strongly in my mass conversion points, i apologize and will rehash my arguments in a more civil manner. 🙂 i desire conversation and engagement, not a fight. unless of course, i am patronized like one other commenter did.

I am merely pointing out that instead of a blanket ban on foreign aid, which will be extremely difficult if not impossible to bring about, one should begin by working at increasing transparency in Christian orgs. and other non legislative options.

but as you point out, large sums of money do leave trails, and so it should not be as difficult as i think.

i am afraid, let me be clear, that involving the govt in regulation will end up in a second license raj, which leads to more opportunities for corruption. also, it will only push hype selling evangelicals into becoming more hysterical in selling their conspiracy theories.

Violence in Hinduism was, as you rightly said,is a direct result of aggression from other religions, and therefore, responding in kind is only gonna make things worse.

or, religions, particularly Christianity grows in leaps and bounds when under threat, as is shown by Christianity’s growth in china and korea, and even the gulf. the times when it was not a threat was the time there was peace. now, foreign money has changed equations, and so, it needs to be tackled, surely, but one must be careful as to not to get Christians into believing/deluding that they are a “persecuted” group. and so the involvement of these communities in their regulation is essential.

Again, i have mentioned that temples being under govt control has lead to great damage, and therefore no religious inst. should be under them, first off, let us get temples out of govt control then stop haj subsidies, take away kumbh tax and stop the income tax waivers given to religious charities. that alone will.

as for the conversion of the nagas etc, that is food for thought, thank you for pointing it out.

Here is another reason to take a good hard look at the whole
Game: Tentmaking, ever heard of it? See the definition:

“Christian professionals who work in secular jobs in order to reach another people with the gospel, by integrating work and witness’. http://www.globalopps.org/

This is a scheme through which evangelisation is taken into your office, your school and if feasible in your homes. Tentmaker could be your teacher, lecturer, doctor, student, colleague, friend, living like everybody else, drawing normal salaries and socializing, just like everybody else, except that, all along his goal was to get you converted. If he befriends you, invites you for a family dinner, plays with your kids, it is all and always for converting you. The ugliest part is he would never let you know about his objective.

In certain countries, this mechanism is basically used for hoodwinking the local laws (e. g. China, Islamic countries)

Just google Tentmaking and see what you end up with.

Ethics any one ? For our believers it is the call of God.

@sanjeev

i hope addressing you as doc has not caused offense, it was out of respect, nothing else.

my disagreement was and still is, with the way and extent in which the state should interfere in religious workings, as it is, there is enough interference, and as i have outlined above, it is not a very easy thing to go about without increasing bureaucratic process.

again, no one can really pinpoint what the fundamental nature of Indian societies is and so, an argument that societies must maintain their fundamental nature is not a very well defensible one, change is essential, fundamental change is essential too. i do not deny that political influence of religion is increasing and needs to be checked.

I do not doubt your liberal credentials a bit, but i hope you agree that unless ones beliefs are open to debate, and available for being challenged, it leads to stagnation.

am reading discovery of freedom.

thank you
anand

SKS,

sure, regulate evangelists:) should be fun

religious jargon must be interpreted in religious context. tentmaking just means that instead of preaching and working full time, they work, and through “life witness” meaning being “nice Christians” introduce Christian concepts. i’d say people should be allowed to do that, there surely can be stuff to learn from other religions. just be aware, and look for fakes.

one of the most central aspects of Christianity is that it believes in sharing beliefs, and that has always been so, before the advent of immoral evangelism, everyone was a tent-maker. and how much ever you legislate, that is not going to change. sharing ones faith, for whatever intent, is ones basic right, methods should be open for scrutiny. i am sharing my beliefs to you now, with an intent to convert, not to Christianity, bec i dont believe in it, but to and ideology similar to mine.

anand

@Anand
I am not sure if tentmaking is as innocuous as just sharing your beliefs. When I start talking to someone at my new office or at some club I am just trying to make a friend. If we like each other, we are good friends or we are not. We just remain colleagues. A tentmaker is very different, he is unlikely to befriend you just because he likes who you are. Instead he does so because he sees in you an ‘opportunity’ and that is plain disgusting.

On this website I know you are trying to convince me and so do you but with a tentmaker only he knows which is unfair and that is the most charitable way of saying it.

BTW who are these guys? Just someone inspired by faith? I am sorry, these guys are more often than not affiliated to one or another network, are trained by professionals, have training manuals and hazar such things.

Yes, it is an individual’s right to share his belief but to do so slyly is a breach of victim’s rights. To do this while you are my son’s teacher or a swimming coach is slimy and it wouldn’t be entirely incorrect for the background check to look at this angle as well.

@Anand,
As I pointed out before, foreign funding should be regulated but given current reality, we can not regulate foreign funding. It is the Christian community that has to decide whether it would uphold values that is brought by rich evangelists or message of their prophet. Neither you nor me can tell greater Hindu community what they should do, but we can guess what they can do when they feel they are threatened. Nagaland is a good example of why they would feel threatened. Orissa is a small scale but closer to home example.
“…particularly Christianity grows in leaps and bounds when under threat, as is shown by Christianity’s growth in china and korea, and even the gulf.” – Sort of a myth. Whatever “progress” missionaries made in China, by all accounts Mao pretty much destroyed with cultural revolution. Now that Chinese are interested in the things that were taboo in Mao years, they are looking back at their old heritage, not imported ideologies. South Korea is a perfect example of consequences of vigorous evangelism in a society that sought escape from multiple wars and invasion. But a more striking example would be shogunate in Japan in 1600s. When Shogunate began to suspect the loyalty of their subjects converted to Christianity, they launched an war against them and destroyed the christian movement so thoroughly that even foreign missionaries were converted to Shintoism by force. Even during the meiji restoration years, Christianity could not stand back on it’s feet simply because very hierarchical Japanese society view foreign ideologies with suspect.

The truth is that patronage of state or powerful clans is required for any new religion or ideology to gain a foothold in a new place. But even then, replacing a group of concepts that survived for multiple millenniums and evolved with changing time is no easy or quick task. Even Islam, with it’s bloody years in the subcontinent, half-a-millennium of oppression and jizia tax, could not be as successful against Hinduism here the way it could in Malayasia or Indonesia. A new wave of money, manipulation in media and influence peddling in political circles would give evangelicals some temporary victories but it would also alienate the Hindus who are used to view Christians as just friends who mean no harm. I do not fear Christian takeover of India, entire India is not Nagaland. What I fear is that this struggle would change the very character of Hinduism and would destroy the very ability to accept and integrate the changes that come with time.
At the end, I am going to mention something I heard from a friend from Jharkhand: Some tribals in Jharkhand were given money for conversion, they got converted, then a Hindu mission offered them money for conversion back, so they converted back and went to church to get the money for conversion again. This cycle went a few iteration until local church began to notice that familiar faces are joining the “fold of Jesus” again and again. While we are here getting highly patronized about innocent tribals getting converted for money, those tribals may not be so innocent after all. 🙂

The general argument for freedom of religion is that in the marketplace of religious ideas, all should be equally able to market their theologies to the public, and the people can decide which ones to consume. If we regard religions similar to other consummables, then there need to be stringent regulations preventing them from seeking to monopolize the marketplace, and unfair trade practices which give one religion additional advantage (other than merely their ideas) need to be abolished.

However, since Christianity and Islam pose as the Truth, and religions which promise eternal heaven etc., and their truth claims involve the destruction of native religions and belief systems, a better way to view them is not mere ideas that one can adopt or leave as one pleases, but actually weapons used in a larger war to control all the world’s resources and people. When seen as essentially as instruments of war, with the stated objective of destroying all native cultures and religions (this is what the pope meant about planting a cross in India), we can be perhaps clearer in our response. Instead of arguing whether we should be secular or Hindu nation, we need to recognize that Hindus deserve a nation, a homeland. As a people who have unwillingly been drawn into a war not of their making, because of the illogical beliefs of Christians and Muslims who seek to destroy us, we need to stand up and fight back.

First time I felt very happy, for this problem being analysed in right direction. If we know the problem, solution becomes easy.

Namaste

Some points in this are vague but need noticing.
Firstly Why are we not using Sanatana Dharma instead of Hindu Religion?The word Hindu itself was hardly used before !500 A>D or so.More importantly Why do we tag ISM only to Hindu and Not to Christianism or Islamism? why are we not using MOHAMMADINISM as used to be a few decades ago?THe sufix ISM is used to Communism, confucisnism , humanism etc.

By such narrowing down the Sanatana Dharma to an ISM, we take away the total impact of Culture encompassing Arts, Music, Literature!

Can there be a greater treason? Why Hinduism and Not ‘RELIGION?’

And today we find the destruction that is taking place.Remember that they said that not somewhere in a hide out, but in the capital city of the stae, whose CM called them for discussions! this is their opening salvo!

You cannot visit ANY COUNTRY without a VISA from that country. and HERE we Have TWO CRORES BANGLADESHIS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY! Not a word of that in these discussions? why?
It is well known that 13% p Hindu opulation of Pakistan at the time of partition is reduced to a miniscule element today. Not a word of that by the christian missionaries who want to increase their Flock.in India.
****************************************************************************************

If ever there were to be a war with Pakistan or/and China do you honestly feel that Indians whio are least bothered about their culture will give their Lives to fight? And save what they will ask!
Kindly ponder over the points sincerely.. as the issue is not just a few bodies being converted but the GREAT INTERNATIONAL CLIQUE behind it. The conversions is only a tip of the iceberg as a part and parcel a psychological warfare.
They have alredy won the first phase as we can see that NO one but NO one is bothered at the ground level to even study the problem. WE are unfortunately arguing in the computer.

I for one am living in a village where No one is able to do a bit to stop the blazing of allaleuas from a church so loudly that they can be beard a kilometer away, and disturb the school, students during their exams… etc. all for exactly 15 christians in a village of over 2000 people!. All are scared to say a word because the one who keeps his amoplifiers has a direct link with the CM.

Please go thru these articles.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=1168

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=1170

Good analysis by R. Jagannathan

http://epaper.dnaindia.com/newsview.aspx?eddate=4/8/2010&pageno=12&edition=9&prntid=114018&bxid=30690696&pgno=12

I agree with SID. It is time we take action and do not depend on the Govt. Any failure to do so is failing our future generations.
It is time for action and the least we can do is to vote and take our friends to vote judiciously.

***

Sanjeev had correctly pointed out the christian and Muslim priorities vis a\vis religion and politics.
we are unfortunately caught napping while getting the constitution, (in the making for over 3 years) and have given in to both Ambedkar and Nehru . No one had foreseen the calamity that may overtake by giving in to Caste minorities as well as religious minorities. the constitution makers, to be fair to them, could not have imagined the present situation
But what do we do Now.. Use the same constitution to beat it.. Go and vote If only the information of the flow of funds, the intimidation being wrought in villages , and the money being poured in by theGOVERNMENT are made known

People like sanjeev should get out leaflets, on the issues and distribute by thousands. If all of us unite fearlessly I am sure the propaganda that we are all Hindutva fans can be proved wrong.

**************A question had been asked if I have any proof of collusion between the communists ( of any hue) and the Christians is available.
it is becoming clearer day after day.Take SONIA and her communist origin exposed by Dr Subrahmanyam Swamy is avilable in the Bharatiya Pragna for any one to see.
2. YSR ( Late) invited the Naxalites without preconditions for a discussion and the headlines of Deccan Herald (was it the Chronicle) declared that the PWG wab\nts HINDUISM ” to be destroyed on 24 OCT 2004.What other proof is needed>The christianisation in Hills, supply of weapons and maintaining the animosity between the tribals and the plains people is proof enough.

Please visit te National Library KOLKatta and see that half the Magazines are all URDU ones.!! what seditious subjects are in there is anybodt’s guess.
Lastly if in the next six months they establish a weapon manufacturing unit in Chattisgarh( or Orissa) God only can fight them
. Let me be frank and say that probably considerably important sections in the FORCES mght have already been infiltrated.

***
Niki sys we have fallen into a trap. he is right in a way but we have been entrapped since the colonial times when they startd using the word RELGION for our sanatana Dharma and called our grand idea of invocation of a God ( or strictly speaking GOD) in any thing in the universe and calling that IDOL worship. Wefell deeply into the pit ( or trap) by Justifying our worship Invocation or AVAHANA.
We should even now fight these two concepts .. it is never too late.

***
I wish that what Anand says is possible. The ground reality is so toatally different.

Every Hindu must take note of what’s happening in India. Present India is a creation of Nehru and Gandhi. Nehru started by reserving MP seats for Anglo-Indians.
What a proud Hindu can do-
(1) American Express stopped the sporsorship of a meeting in America,as soon as they came to know Narendra Modi was coming to attendthe meeting. Shall we use american Express ?
(2) An exibition of MF Hossain’s work was sponsored by Hitachi, Opened by Indian high Commissioner in London, UK. Do we need to by products made by Hitachi.
(3) Citybank donates money to Worldvision.

Narayan.

To @Anand #22 and subsequent discussions on the “fundamental character of (this) free society”, may I add the following:

The original quote was:

However, the free society must protect its fundamental character. This method – of foreign funds being used to change the character of India – is in conflict with India’s sovereignty.

There it is, back in context, it stands clarified all by itself.

The fundamental character of a free society is freedom, freedom to determine its own fate — which is linked inextricably to sovereignty.

Whether the fundamental character of India as a society is really rooted in freedom, or in mental sluggishness and mental slavery, will take a long debate to settle. But, in my view, the outcome of that debate is inconsequential.

Because, we are not trying to be archeological here, in the sense of discovering and preserving some fundamental character just for its legacy value.

I think freedom and liberty whether they exist or not, existed or not, is immaterial. They are worth aspiring for. If wen can agree as much, work can progress.

P.S. Shantanu, a “preview” option would be good, before “submit comment”.

Dear Shantanu,

Just a suggestion.. !!!

Go to the basics of nationality, regional identity, and religious identity. You would come up with some uncomfortable facts. Untill and unless you accept those facts sincerely you can not find solution to the problems you have quoted in this blog and else where..

When we say Unity there are different layers and each layers needs to be dealt at its level, any mixing is counter productive as is seen in India..

The levels are:

1. Cultural level
2. National Level Or Political level
3. Regional level
4. Administrative level

There are three other levels which we can discuss at some other place

In India we consider all these levels as one and that is why we are in serious trouble..

My clear inferences, which you may find somewhat unpalatable are:

1. Hindu culture is very high level and Hindu Nationalists are degrading it by defining it as a base for Nationality..

2. Indian lingustic groups are infact the different Nationalities and should be treated as such.

3. Administrative integration at central government is counter productive. In fact in my opinion Central Government of India should become United Nations of Bharat Khand. And it should handle only Foreign relations, defence, strategic research etc. and should leave all else including railways, communication, education, economy to states..

4. Present situation of lack of strong sense of Nationalism is result of defective understanding of concept of Nationality.

5. Also, I would also wish to state here that cosmopolitan culture, which people talk high about is infact ANTI-NATIONAL culture.. think over it..it is important understanding..

6. Migration whether from India to other countries, From one state to another state, from one area within a state to another area within that state is BAD.. and there is no reason to attach high Holiness to right for migration..

Hope to discuss these extreme thoughts of mine with others..!!

@Milind (#76),
Start if a good discussion. Can this be migrated to a separate thread?

Good effort. I do not agree to some but agree to some of these.

1. Hindu culture is very high level and Hindu Nationalists are degrading it by defining it as a base for Nationality. – Please define what you call high level.

2. Indian lingustic groups are infact the different Nationalities and should be treated as such. – Are they different Nationalities ? In your opinion, then, culture (or Hindu culture with it’s high level) can not form the basis of nationalism, but languages (which is an attribute of one’s culture) can form the basis of the nationalism?

3. Administrative integration at central government is counter productive. In fact in my opinion Central Government of India should become United Nations of Bharat Khand. And it should handle only Foreign relations, defence, strategic research etc. and should leave all else including railways, communication, education, economy to states.. – Agree. When it was done, it was done to grab more power. Makes no sense today. But railways/communication should be centralized because they have strong security implications.

4. Present situation of lack of strong sense of Nationalism is result of defective understanding of concept of Nationality. – Yes, true.

5. Also, I would also wish to state here that cosmopolitan culture, which people talk high about is infact ANTI-NATIONAL culture.. think over it..it is important understanding.. – In other cases, cosmopolitan culture creates solid bases for nationalism. The problem is loyalty of our elites are mostly towards west, naturally the culture they are most comfortable in anti-national.

6. Migration whether from India to other countries, From one state to another state, from one area within a state to another area within that state is BAD.. and there is no reason to attach high Holiness to right for migration.. – Migration of skilled people should be allowed anywhere, for the sake of growth of individual economies. It is the migration of unskilled coupled with the lack of opportunities is the main source of conflict. The issue is very thorny.

Shantanu and Sid..

I consider situation in India today, is the result of widespread philosophical confusion arriving out of management of diversity that exist in India. Currently I am in process of writing a book and what I shall be discussing here are part of the book..

I will discuss point number 1 here that of Hindu culture is of very high level and Hindu Nationalists are degrading it by making it a base for Nationality.

First let us understand what Nationality is ?

Nationality is an identity of a social group with geo-political unity based on shared history, language, religion, and ethnicity. All these factors provide sense of belongingness and sense of ownership. In simpler words Nationality is political identity of a group of people with strong sense of belongingness and strong sense of ownership which makes individuals sacrifice their personal interests for interests of the shared group.

Now, language is the strongest factor for creation of identity for two basic reasons.

1. It makes communication and sharing easier within the group. Communication and sharing are the two basic requirements of human beings. All of us have seen that in any institution or work place, groups are easily formed based on shared language. In US most of the Indians have their associations formed based on their language as that is their base for sense of belongingness and sense of ownership. We are aware of this fact and in process of creation of new Nationality based on Hindu culture, our constitution also recognizes linguistic minorities.

2. Every language has its own culture and it helps in nurturing the same culture amongst its users. The development of language takes place based on its usage. For example Sanskrit is the language most suitable to understand, express and discuss concepts about spirituality because that was the language which developed in a society where discussions on these concepts were common. Whereas you would find Urdu as a language most suitable to understand, express and discuss Ishq and love, because of the culture of the society where it was developed.

There are many other observations that indicate language is a strong base for Nationality. One strong example all of us might be aware of is support during disasters. When you compare nature calamities of Bihar Floods, Kutchh Earthquake, and Orissa cyclone which had happened within last decade, you would find that Kutchh received highest publicity and support whereas Bihar and Orissa received negligible attention and support compared to the damage they suffered. This clearly indicates the people who provided aid had strong sense of belongingness and ownership with Kutchh which they did not share with Bihar and Orissa….

Now let us discuss what the culture is.

Culture can be understood as typicality of response of a group of people towards any issue, development or stimuli based on shared values and life concepts.

When you look at Indian population Hindu culture is based on spiritual values which are shared across India. In the hierarchy of values spirituality is at the top most level. However more than discussing hierarchy I would like to point out how creating Indian Nationality is harming India.

Objective behind creating Nationality is unifying everything, i.e. common taxation rules and laws, common entrance tests, common administrative services etc.. And let me point out this is something MOST FOOLISH that is being pursued in India.

For a state (Indian State) to develop we need resources and people. By creating India as a Nation we are giving impression to our people that migrating to any part within India or serving in any part of India is serving motherland!!! because of this all the backward areas and states are losing their talent to developed areas and states.

Secondly by creating common economic zone we are creating unequal market competition. Any one in business knows that it is difficult to set up a business in backward areas for variety of reasons and manufacturing organizations in backward areas find it difficult to compete even in the local market. More over if you see Indian sales tax regime, when you purchase from other states you pay less tax !!! This is an arrangement to ensure that states do not develop !!!

If Bihar would have been autonomous region Or a separate country, they would have raised finances by taxing imports, they would have created sense of belongingness and sense of ownership amongst the people of Bihar and motivated them to work for Bihar..

By creation of Indian Nationality Bihar cannot develop without private investment from outside the state and when it develops probably most of the businesses would be owned by people from outside the state.

A couple of days back there was an article in TOI, that Tamil Nadu is not able to replace English with Tamil in the state because IAS officers are mostly from other states and are not comfortable in Tamil.. I think this is something disastrous..

In Maharashtra there is a growing feeling that when most of the officers in administration and police were from within the state, Maharashtra was having a very good administration and now with majority being from outside the state it has drastically deteriorated administration..

In short by creating Indian nationality, we have created a monster which is difficult to reign in.. I think It is necessary to accept diversity and differences and provide adequate space..

New info from pioneer:

“Among the States and Union Territories, the highest receipt of foreign contributions was reported by Delhi (Rs 1,716.57 crore), followed by Tamil Nadu (Rs 1,670.93 crore) and Andhra Pradesh (Rs 1,167.21 crore). Among the districts, the highest receipt of foreign contributions was reported by Chennai (Rs 731.22 crore), followed by Bangalore (Rs 669.76 crore) and Mumbai (Rs 469.90 crore),” says the report.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/304801/Foreign-hand-Christian-bodies-top-donors-receivers.html

Incredible Stats from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/suhag-a-shukla-esq/harvesting-souls-yields-c_b_817793.html

Exhibit C — eye-opening information from India’s Foreign Contribution Regulation Act which collects data on incoming foreign aid. In 2007, the top two non-governmental donors to India were U.S.-based missionary organizations, World Vision International at ~$155 million and Gospel for Asia ~$99.5 million — together that’s $255 million into India in just one year. Overall, an astonishing 18,996 organizations in India, a disproportionate number linked to Christian missionaries, received donations totaling $2.4 billion in 2007 alone. And the inflow has been growing rapidly. 2007 showed contributions more than double of 2002. With these numbers, how can we say the concerns are unfounded?

Why only foreign funding?

Is accumulation of wealth by any religious institution good?

Whether it is conversion, re-conversion or re-re-conversion the moment it becomes forced it undermines religion itself.

Being constructive and creative with funds may win more followers than coercion and blackmail, and who knows there may be healthy theological competition. But how can we ensure religious funding is not used for illegal activities? Maybe an RTI for all religious institutions?

Also, don’t really see the point of making adivasis adopt conventional religion.

Hello Shantanu,

Please read the below interview of PN Benjamin. He clearly says that fringe christians group are behind the attacks on the churches in karnataka and loads of money(foreign) is poured by a US church to do this.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-interview-with-pn-benjamin-on-church-attacks/20120206.htm

In this context, pl see list of suspended/banned NGOs and the list of NGOs that have not filed their annual returns in 2011-2012 (pdf file)

Dear Shantanu-ji,
Namaste. I am writing this a long time after your post was written. I have also not read all the 95 comments before mine due to lack of time. Hence, if anyone has already mentioned what I am going to say, Sorry (for not acknowledging your comment).

Orgs registering under FCRA can define their characteristic as Economic/Social/Religious/Educational etc.. They can participate in any activity except political ones. In my study, I have come across Orgs (chiefly RoL types), whose work spans all the above spheres. Innumerable such organizations exist; so I cannot give any specific examples here. Nearly all of them are involved in (a) microfinancing (b)rural health (c) evangelising, church-planting & soul-harvesting and (d)running schools. These constitute the portfolio of a *single* organization. Such an organization (typically) will register under FCRA as (in my experience) Economic/Social/Educational.

Only explicitly religious (i.e., old-time RoL types such as Roman Catholic etc..) register under Religious category (Examples: Khammam Diocesan Trust, Tuticorin Diocesan Trust etc..); Others don’t.

Thus, to “prohibit” foreign contributions towards Religious activities can be done, but it will be ineffective.

On a slightly philosophical note: Religions are supposed to have a social side and a spiritual side to them. In RoL, to my understanding (I could be wrong here), everything is social. i.e., the practice of the religion (which includes propagation) is through social actions. Thus, one cannot “divorce” the spiritual side (if any) from the social actions (such as Educational/Medical/Economic missions).

Thanks for providing an opportunity to share my thoughts,
Regards,
Sighbaboo

I know this is an old discussion thread but require fresh discussion after the recent IB disclosure of foreign funding of NGO’s that is sabotaging the economic security of the country. I have not seen a copy of the report. Is a copy of the report available online?

Dear Sighbaboo: Thank you for sharing these links…and no, I do not consider these as “advertisements”!
They are helpful to everyone who stumbles on this post – and hopefully will lead to better understanding of this topic..
Feel free to share such links in the future too – and keep up the good work!

Adding this link here for the record: HOW FOREIGN EVANGELICAL ORGANIZATIONS SET THE AGENDA OF FCRA-RECEIVING INDIAN NGOS by SHIVA KUMARAN, NOVEMBER 8, 2014