Open Thread on Conversions, Christianity, Islam etc.
Dear All: I am opening this thread to provide a place to discuss all aspects related to Conversions, Christianity, Islam etc.
Please be sensitive in your comments. No personal abuse please. I will be deleting and editing comments that I feel have crossed the line. If you feel I have overlooked something, please alert me by leaving a comment here. Have a good discussion.
For those of you who may be new here, please have a look at my comments policy (and a shorter version here). If you do not wish to leave your email id on the site, use satyacomment@gmail.com
The last few comments from the RSS thread are reproduced below to help continue the discussion. Thanks.
*** Comments Begin (30th Dec onwards) ***
Comment by Aman:
Ashok:
1. In that case sir, I must quote to you what Gandhiji once told a fan of the Gita who was denouncing the Bible & wanting to convert.
Gandhiji thought a while and said: ‘I think you have not understood the Bible well. Since you are not a good Christian, how can you be a good Hindu?
It is therefore better that you first become a good Christian. If you succeed in doing this, you will become a good human being. And if you do so, then you will not only be a good Christian, but a good Hindu, a good Muslim and a good Jew as well. The walls of narrow, separate religions within your heart will then break away.’
This shows Gandhiji’s understanding of true religion, unity of all religions and his broad-mindedness.
***
Comment by Ashok:
Aman!!! It seems you are a full time paid propagandist for the holy church. I did not say I did not have time for this blog. I have less stime for meandering meandering logic like that of yours. I have some short takes for you.
If all relegion are equal ( as you benignly declare in contravention to the laid down core values of monolithic religions like christianity- thanks for that) then what is the meaning in cruel rituals like conversion. Why convert??/ Why Why Why??
Why cant the gospel of christ be taught alongside teaching of Krishna. To teach someone the Gospel why should you try and erase the teachings of Krishna
And you have quoted something from Gandhi. I dont know if he said that. He was too shrewd a politician and I wont be surprised if he said a thing like that. But he also said something to the effect that conversion is cruel; you wont have heard that ofcourse since you select history selectively.
And I want to ask you now; Aman!! have you read Bible?? And have you reflected on it or you have blindly beleived what ever your convertor has told you. If you read and reflect on each line and try and peep into the mind or most probable hired minds which have produced this document, you will be horrified
And I am really amused at your allusion that Hindu religion has something to do with narrowness of mind and wall and all that. A christian cannot even declare that people worshipping different Gods can reach heaven. The reall narrowness is here; right inside the Bible dear brother and you blame the most open religion of narrownes. Forgive him God for he does not know what he is saying.
I forgive you
***
Comment by Aman:
ashok:
So you aren’t a man of your word. 
Not surprising, considering the jokers you look up to are two faced themselves.
Anyway… here are some short takes for you.
– I don’t do propaganda. That will explain partly what I have against the rss.
– Conversion is a personal choice. Heard of free will? Nobody needs religion (or conversion) to find God, but some people believe it does. To each his own.
– It can be. It is in places. Knowledge is available all over. I was taught about Rama, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Mahavir, Kabir, Nanak, Moses & Muhammed. I guess I was lucky. Today if I encounter someone trying to influence my views, I change their funda.
– I am aware that you don’t know whether Gandhi said that. Which is why I told you!
To you Gandhi was a shrewd politician. To Tagore, he was a Mahatma.
He was against conversion or overt evangelism yes, but I don’t recall him calling it cruel.
If you think it is cruel, talk to the rss about their ghar-vapasi programme & lakshmiananda’s followers.
– I suggest you read the Bible when you’re not on lsd. Which line are you referring to as specifically horrifying?
– Where exactly is it implied that the religion commonly referred to as Hinduism is narrow minded??? Your comprehension is a problem. Which explains your views on everything.
***
Comment by Kaffir:
“- Conversion is a personal choice. Heard of free will? Nobody needs religion (or conversion) to find God, but some people believe it does. To each his ownâ€
Wow, so all your hot passion turns into ice when it comes to conversion and calling a spade a spade? Conversion = intolerance of others, not accepting others as they are and they need to be like me. Tolerating such intolerance is not a virtue, more so after knowing that this belief of converting others has been historically used to kill and plunder others and destroy their cultures.
BTW, why not apply “free will†to many of your criticisms?
“I suggest you read the Bible when you’re not on lsd. Which line are you referring to as specifically horrifying?â€
Leviticus 18 and 20, for example.
***
Comment by Aman:
kaffir…
My fire is reserved for things I can see wrong with. Does it work any other way?
If I see injustice, I will breathe fire. If I see conversion at gunpoint or knifepoint, I will cry foul. If I see societal corecion at work in conversions, I will cry foul. If I see economic incentives at work, I will disapprove. But I will not decry someone trying to spread their message. If someone comes to me believing that it is in human interest to spread the message of Krishna/Buddha/Moses/Christ/Muhammed, I will not stop them. There is good in those messages.
Ashoka sent evangelists all over India. His children Sanghamitra & Mahinda were evangelists that spread Buddishm to Sri Lanka.
Adi Shankaracharya travelled all over India attempting & effecting a revival of the ancient Vedic faith.
Dayananda Saraswati not only evangelised but also actively converted & reconverted into the revivalist Arya Samaj fold.
Vivekananda did the same but he was probably more apologist then revivalist. He was also an evangelist.
Why should I object?
Conversion is not = to intolerance. Conversion is preaching & finding acceptance for one’s ideas. You can evangelize religious philosophy, economic theory, forms of Govt., Gavaskar’s greatness, anything you feel like. And if people come round to your point of view, there’s no harm really. If you have a compelling enough argument why not? In fact often it is important to get people to think differently. For example, those who claim that Border was greater than Gavaskar need to be spoken to! If they don’t listen, that is up to their free will.
And just because you use a sword do kill doesn’t mean steel is evil. Similarly if people use religion of evangelising it for evil purposes doesn’t mean that they’re evil. Those who use them for bad purposes are bad! And no culture has really been destroyed by conversion. There are a lot of factors at play. I wonder what happened to the ancient Harrappan culture…?
Once you understand the ancient history of conversions in India, you’ll be a little more tolerant of conversions today I guess. For example, how did ancient tribal customs give way to the Vedic way of life? How did their ancient gods get replaced by Hindu gods? Did this have royal patronage as well? Read up a little, think about it a little. Come back. I’m certain you will chase me around the web a little while longer.
As for applying free will to my criticisms, I’m not sure what you mean; but if you mean why do I not let things & people be, then you don’t understand free will. Free will means having the freedom to choose. The freedom to express & the freedom to argue I guess. I don’t force anyone to follow my path. I exercise my freedom to express my views. And even that I am doing lesser & lesser of. Partly out of respect for free will of course. One can only take the horse to the water; one can’t make him drink.
And what is so horrifying about Leviticus 18 & 20?
***
Comment by Rohit:
My fire is reserved for things I can see wrong with.
Here are some of the places where you can gospel: SWAT, FATA, KASHMIR, UIGHUR… I am sure you will get rousing reception.
Free Will… Why should I object?
The other way around is also free will; i.e., opposing mullahs and baptistos so go and talk to your mullas and baptistos, especially mulla omar who is in your lovely Pakistan or Afghanistan… Border is porous and you can meet him easily… Take Zakir Naik also along with yourself.
Once you understand the ancient history of conversions in India, you’ll be a little more tolerant of conversions today I guess. For example, how did ancient tribal customs give way to the Vedic way of life? How did their ancient gods get replaced by Hindu gods? Did this have royal patronage as well? Read up a little, think about it a little.
You think and research about the conversions about gulf and the nomads and their limited gibberishes. Why they copied the same stuff again and again… It will be more fruitful. And also think why no non muslim or non christian was left where ever the good sword people went with cheap copies of Judaism.
***
Comment by Ashok:
Thank God you( a Gandhian as you call yourself) accepted atleast one thing that your own ideal was against conversion.
What do I find horrifying in Bible?? It will take volumes and annoy the blog owner. Please google and read ‘ proving bible is repulsvie’ on the net. There is great dea of information on it from western source;not from the RSS. I am sure you will find some more queer logic to circumvent this information andt the logic
And who told you I will not vis this site. You by logic tried to impose it on me. It was your wish not mine. I do not know who has a comprehension problem. And calling me not a man of my word ; a word which I have not given. Queer.
Reading your post remind me how the church trapped and tormented Copernicus merely for saying that the earth is round and is not the centre of the universe. you must read about this too; the formal case by the church against Copernicus and how he was brought to his knees by the church
If you have read bible and find nothing repulsive in it I am really amazed. How can people tell lies not only to others but to themselve. Shall get back with the data later
***
Pl. continue to share your thoughts below.
Related Posts:
“Why have Missionaries chosen to attack India?â€
“Why are Christian Missions targetting India?†– II
Why are Christian Missionaries targeting India – III
Rohit,
– Sure. Those places AND ’84 delhi, ’92 & ’93 bombay, ’69 ahmedabad, ’02 gujarat, ’08 orissa & karnataka as well. Don’t forget those.
I don’t know about the rousing reception though. 🙂
– You are being very rude. I am talking to you fairly politely & not asking you to cross the porous border into pakistan, so why are you asking me to do that?
I am choosing to be polite because Gandhiji said that it is braver to face aggression smilingly than respond aggressively.
My derision for the paki govts. & terror groups crimes matches, maybe even exceeds yours, but we’re not talking about pakistan here! We are talking about the problems in our own country. Created by our own countrymen. Like you!
And unless your understanding of our own issues improves, we will continue to struggle with internal enemies like you.
– As for information on the “nomads in the gulf”, you can clear a lot of your misconceptions by watching this documentary. It’s made by one of the World’s leading documentary film makers, who is a Westerner incidentally, not a nomadic Gulf resident. Western scholars & researchers will tell you how the spread wasn’t bloody as commonly propogated, but how a pull factor worked instead of a push.
It’s up to you to watch & decide. Australia Network at these times in India: http://australianetwork.com/guide/00001462.htm (Voiceover by our very own Indian origin star Krishna Pandit Bhanji, also known as Ben Kingsley)
Downloadable here: http://www.kickasstorrents.com/pbs-islam-the-empire-of-faith-t741713.html
DVD available here: http://www.allmovie.com/work/islam-empire-of-faith-part-2-the-awakening-doc-250004
The knowledge is all there man. It’s up to you to make use of it in your search for the truth.
__________
Ashok,
Care to explain your first line please?
Your second line is really very funny! Why don’t you Google “Bible+Word+of+God” & be convinced with the results that throws up?? Don’t make me laugh man.
Don’t bother getting back with the data. The shakhas will not have any. 😀
As for the Church torturing Copernicus or Galileo or burning “witches” at the stake, you need to also look at how our “Upper Castes” treated our “Lower Castes” & still do today. What about the system of Sati in India? Do examples like this make Hindu texts bad?? I don’t think so.
I think that the priestly class across all religions is corruptible & often misinterprets good religions to suit their own purposes.
If you can’t get that, I will continue to try, but only God may be able help you! 🙂
An illness necessitates that I walk with a cane- that too with difficulty. I have had several encounters in the past few months where Christians have thrust their faith on me, and tried to get me to come to “be healed”.
I wonder that while safeguarding the rights of religious followers to proselytise, the Constitution did not think to protect the right of an individual not to ‘be proselytised’!
I do not appreciate being regarded as a number to complete the quota of new people my Batatewala needs to take to prayer meeting, to stay in the good books of his church (I heard a church member scolding him about not bringing ‘anyone new’ to church that week. After that he tried several times to persuade me to come.)
I also do not appreciate the implication that since I am not in good health, I would be emotionally weak enough to fall prey to their ‘persuasions’.
Aman, only someone naive or delusional would argue that converting people to the view that Gavaskar is better than Border, falls in the same category and has the same impact, as converting someone to a different religion by using guile or violence. Or maybe you like to be argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative, in which case, I don’t have time for it.
Additionally, revival (within Hinduism) is not the same as conversion.
If you can show some proof that historically, the tribals were “converted” to Hinduism through violence and unfair means, please share it. But to assume that it happened, to excuse the conversion business going on today, does not hold water for me.
Cheers.
“What about the system of Sati in India?”
What about it? Here are some questions for you and if you can give specific answers instead of your verbose comments that wander all over the place, please do.
1. How many recorded cases of sati were there and over what time period?
2. How widespread was the practice of sati?
3. Does it find sanction in any religious texts?
4. How many Hindus today are in favor of sati?
5. Were Hindus not critical of the practice, and did they not make efforts to eradicate it?
5. Has the government of India taken steps to counter it?
Again, specific and brief answers please. Thanks.
The point being: it’s not that the practice of sati was wonderful (it wasn’t), but that the society a. realized it was unjust, and b. took steps to counter it. That (willingness to take a second look and change practices) to me is the hallmark of an open and progressive society, not that unjust practices exist. No society is perfect.
Aman, the problem with quoting words from famous people is that one can pick-and-choose certain words and ignore others to make a point. It’s a useless exercise. Besides, one needs to use one’s own brain too and analyze the words and see whether they are valid in today’s world, instead of blindly following what Gandhi, Nehru, or Bhagat Singh said.
For example, Gandhi quite unambiguously spoke out against conversion of Hindus by Christians, and was critical of such attempts by non-Hindus, yet no present-day Gandhians who love to quote Gandhi, would quote Gandhi’s words on the conversion issue because that would make them “communal”. I guess Gandhi was communal.
Gandhi also told Hindus and Sikhs to die at the hands of Muslims, instead of protecting themselves. [Link] (pages 5 and 6) which comes across as being out-of-touch with reality, along the same lines as him telling the Jews to not offer any resistance to the Nazis and “..the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife”, when asked by Louis Ficsher.
This is not to take away from all the hard work and contributions of Gandhi to the freedom struggle, but just to point out that quoting famous people blindly is fraught with danger, as is trying to ape them. Some of their words will be relevant to the situations today, others won’t.
Aman!! so you are scared of the data and do not want me to get back. Lets see.
About my first line; what I meant was that it is good that you do acknowlede that your icon Mahatama Gandhi( he is my icon doo with some differences of opinion) was against conversion of faith. He believed that the Gospel of Christ( after some distillation) can be taught to Hindus too without complete rebooting of the soul. When you convert someone you presuming that the existing faith in inferior. The very same people who defend their right to convert in the next breath say that ‘all religions are same’ thus exposing their designs.
You have still not told me specifically why is it so necessary to ‘convert’ before a man can be taught the gospel? And let this be a sincere answer
I also want to know from you what does christianity say about rebirth. And if man is born only once then why are we born unequal.
Now that this thread is specifically about christianity I will post that material which reasonably prove that bible cannot be the work of an omnipotent entity but a normal mortal with an agenda. It will be interesting to get your veiws on this. I know you will begin by hunting some similar material in Hindu texts and say ‘ You see such things are in Hindu texts also. This is your typical line of countering an argument
You complain to Rohit that he is being rude to you. Please see the kind of language that you use to me . But I do not mind ; you can use the language and smilies that you want. It is ok with me
You have a strange mind set. In our effort to reason the issues with you I am reminded of what Christ is supposed to have said standing on the mount in front of the multitudes; Do cast pearls before —-
So unless you open your mind a bit to my reasoning and unless you stop abusing me( lsd and what not) we head no where
It seems you are here to win a debate. On the net there is no Mr Chairman to say who is right and who is wrong. It has to be our good sense to try and understand the other man’s view and also to try and look inward and it seems you do not have this quality.
Now you can go ahead and abuse me and use all the smilies and other toos that you know.
thers
@Aman! Pardon me some mistakes in spellings above . My schooling is not as good as yours. I could not afford it and I was not prepared to sell my soul to the missioneries in bargain for the education. But I have done reasonable well
First things first: Wishing all a very happy New Year! May the year bring truth, knowledge & wisdom into everyone’s lives.
Manju,
I only know what you’ve told me, but you are free to tell them to take their business elsewhere. My Mom did. A couple came to her asking whether she’d be interested in discussing the Bible. My Mom has a strong interest in Theology & told that they were welcome on the condition that they didn’t want to convert. Initially they said no, but later they tried & my Mom clearly told them that she was ending the discussions. She’s anyway read the Bible more than once before.
_____
Kaffir,
Read carefully my friend. I’ve made a clear distinction earlier between preaching, conversing & forcing. I am disinclined to talk to someone who doesn’t read what I’ve written earlier & then happily twists my words around.
Revival is one thing, conversion is another. Swami Dayananda Saraswati converted. lakshmiananda & the ghar-vapasi scheme are re-conversion schemes.
I’m glad you’re more amenable to talking now.
Can I assume that you’re OK with non-forcible conversion of tribals to Hinduism? Once I have your clear statement on this, I will provide the link that I am impatiently holding on to.
As for sati, please understand that I brought that up to demonstrate to Ashok that Copernicus’ torture (about which Ashok is wildly off the mark) has a parallel in the Hindu priesthood & upper classes of earlier times insisting upon sati.
– If you can show me sanction for torture in Christ’s teachings (which were all around forgiveness, mercy, love etc.), I will show you parallels in various texts some which are considered religious texts. For example the origin of Sati (or Dakshyani) is definitely described in the Puranas & the Mahabharat. The Mahabharat has details how Madri joined Pandu on the funeral pyre. Do you know a little about the subject you’ve chosen to discuss? If not, read this please, to know how many incidents & how it was forced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)
– As for the abolishment of Sati, in recent memory, it was through the efforts of the great Raja Rammohun Roy who unfortunately is not a hero to enough Indians or even enough Hindus. Such a shame. Here’s a link about a history about it’s suppression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)#Suppression
– Now you tell me. Does the Church still target people who support the Heliocentric theory?
As for me to expect a mind like yours to comprehend Gandhi, that is asking for too much. 🙂
Gandhi unlike a lot of us was constantly evolving, growing as a human being. Everything that great men have preached is valid in today’s World. Non-violence & self-control are pertinent in today’s World than previously if you ask me. It’s the only hope in an increasingly selfish, amoral world.
In case you’re not aware, Gandhiji advised people in the manner in which he led his own life. He did not raise weapons in self defence & didn’t advise anyone else to do so. Today public opinion is with the Jews, those massacred during partition, with Gandhiji, Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, the 5th Sikh Guru Arjan Dev, etc. The aggressor is always looked upon with hate by later generations.
hitler, gen. dyer, godse, booth, oswald etc. will always be the villians!
So if you want to burn & kill Christians & Muslims in India, go ahead. History will remember you as villianous & you will only succeed in swinging public opinion their way. For example, what is the public opinion on the post 9/11 Guantanamo bay torture?
I rest my case. Mahaveer, Buddha, Christ, Muhammed & Gandhi are as relevant today as they were then.
I’ve addressed the conversion issue earlier, but will give it one more shot below in my response to Ashok.
________
Ashok,
Scared? Of a mouse? LOL! Not really. Let the mouse bring the data. I’m not inclined to believe shakha data but you’re welcome to lug it around.
Glad that we’re on the same page on Gandhiji. He was against conversion of those people who didn’t understand religion. It was his love for Hinduism & his belief that in it’s pure, unadulterated form, it was on par with any other religion which made him protest it. However when his own son converted briefly to Islam, he said that it doesn’t matter what path he chooses to find God. He was not communal at all. He was blessed with a mind truly greater than others.
Anyone can be taught the Gospel. You think people who study religions at colleges of theology are all converted first???
Christianity says nothing of rebirth.
As for your “materialâ€, if what you’ve submitted up till now is any indicator of your sources, I really am not inclined. Don’t brand it as my being “scared” or anything else. It’s just too much of a waste of time to argue with a mind that has been brainwashed by the sangh parivar.
As for the Bible being the work of an omnipotent being, you’re right. It isn’t. But the message of Christ & those before him, there is nothing wrong with. Since the Bible contains the messages of Jesus & Prophets before him, it can only contain good, right?
And at this point you’re kind of repeating what I’ve said earlier. My duty ends with trying to give you information & point you in the direction of truth & knowledge. It is up to the horse to drink.
Rephrasing what I am saying can only mean that you are beginning to be convinced? 😉
As for your education, may it be an ongoing journey. May you end up even more enlightened than I aspire to be! 🙂
May this New Year bring you health, happiness, enlightenment & prosperity.
Christianity has transformed many barbaric communities in this world and it still does. If Hinduism is supposed to be so superior why then in India you find people still acting so immorally, why this country still lacks development? why this country so spiritually dark and full of blind beliefs like Sati system and others? But look at the West, how Christianity transformed. For eg, this blog owner himself studied in London and worked there. If he loves India and is so xenophobic, then he should never even visit those countries. After being benefited so much, you backbite. You hate anything foreign, but you would prostrate for $$$$ eh? About conversion, if Christians are converting Hindus, you should explore the reasons why people get converted? May be you should also try to convert Christians back, tit for tat..none opposing.
Let us take a test case. A poor Indian man from a village needs money for some medical treatment. A proselytiser approaches him and offers 100 Grands (or hospital treatment, stay, and medicines for free) provided he and his family converts. Reluctantly, the man decides to convert. Is that the right decision or not? What economic/social benefit will the man get by not converting? What is the chance he could approach someone from Hindu dharma with his problem and get some useful help?
Or take another test case. A poor brahmin has a bright son studying in 9th standard. He sees an impending problem. He can neither spend for coaching nor for the higher education should his son fail to make the cut to cheaper and better institutes. A missionary approaches him. The missionary tells him that as a Brahmin, his son will suffer, but as a catholic, he will have wider horizons… Is the missionary telling lies?
@Sammy
What a wise words and exhibition of knowledge by you. First learn the history of India before you go ga ga over christianity.
Do you know anything about Jallianwala Bagh massacre? Explore first who did it before speaking of other barbaric communities.
@Sammy
Before you talk about past Sati system of India also learn more about execution of queen by their king husband in Christian dominating countries.
Aman, contrary to your name, it is clear that you are least interested in a peaceful discussion and are more interested in scoring points and/or being argumentative just for the sake of it. That is obvious from your comment re: sati, because you very well know that the instances of sati (Madri, Daksha’s daughter) were purely voluntary in nature, and not even close to the form sati had taken when the British abolished it. That’s what I meant by “sanction”, in the sense of it being forced on to widows and making it compulsory. While I could have phrased my question better, it should’ve been obvious to you too – this is not a PhD thesis.
You still didn’t answer rest of the questions I asked you regarding sati, so no point in wasting my time continuing this discussion with you.
@mia paul!!! What a wonderful example you have given. This exposes the mind of convertors. When one sells one’s body for a benefit it is callled prostitution and what do we say when one sells one’s soul for whatever benefit; obviosly PROSTITUTION. And what do you call people who deal in this kind of trade; you decide for yourself
And doing this is banned under Indian Law for which you have no respect and to which you run to after people face music for their misdeed at hands of victims of such trade
mia paul dont you have respect for the Indian Laws too?? The same laws that are protecting you.
Dont you feel ashamed to write what you have written?/
@Aman. Shall get back with some evidence so that our interaction is more fruitful. Presently you just abuse me and keep showing your class and intolerant mental orientation
@Indian – We are not talking about one/two instance here. That way I can cite 100s of instances happening in India. But, the plain fact is Christianity is a religion of peace and love. The teachings of Christianity has developed the modern world to what it is today. Take India for example, so many tribal communities that were backward and morally lost have been reformed by the Christian missionaries. Did you or your clan climb the mountains, cross the river and reach out to such people? These missionaries established schools, gave them their basic and respectful life, and by the heart of gratitude many tribals convert to Christianity..this you cant call by force right? Well, I dont deny that forceful conversion happens…but those indulging in this are just not conversant with their faith’s teachings…such cases are rare..but widely these tribals have got converted due to their heart of gratitude. You ban all the Christians in India, trust me India would be living in Stone Age. Schools, Hospitals, Charity works for the poor…etc..umpteen contributions that has helped the nation. But look at the Christian population in India…2.5%. But Christianity arrived in India even before it arrived in many European/Western nations (2000 years ago)…dont you think in that case …India should fully be a Christian nation?
Forget about the poor Brahmins you are citing..I can easily lure you into a European nation with 5k $ can you deny this? You would do anything right? How do you call that Conversion? oh! no..forceful conversion eh?
*** COMMENT EDITED ***
JOKE OF THE DAY
Christianity is a religion of peace and love. The teachings of Christianity has developed the modern world to what it is today.
Go read some plain facts here: http://www.panjab.org.uk/english/Udhtrial.html Try to get the full statement out from your masters in Britain who are hiding his statement under their OSA
kaffir,
I’m fine either way man. You wanna leave, you’re most welcome. You wanna stay, you’re most welcome. Hopefully you did read & do remember what I said about free will
Similarly whether you choose to address my questions on conversion of tribals, or to avoid it, is also up to your free will.
Again, my point to Ashok & you was that you can’t blame the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible for what the clergy chose to do then. Just as you can’t blame Hinduism for what their clergy allowed the teachings to degenerate into.
Whether you want to accept a logical, point laden debate for what it is, or choose to avoid it, is also up to your free will.
The facts won’t change man. The knowledge will remain out there for those who are interested in examining it with an open mind, for those who care to delve deep enough. It is up to your free will.
_________
Sammy,
From what I’ve learnt: Do not engage in a fault finding war with the rss types. They will lose yes, but they will just be more resentful.
They need to be educated. It’s not their fault that they’ve been taught that everything outside their cocoon is faulty. That explains their righteous anger.
Instead, ask them if they’re willing to examine the good that lies in all religions & in all peoples. Much more can be achieved by everyone agreeing that positives exist in all religions & all peoples, & by focusing on those. Unless your adversary is willing to accept that, there is no point in taking a discussion further. And this applies to all of us.
__________
Shantanu,
The comments are becoming fairly hate fuelled. Care to moderate a bit?
I am putting down here some paras from the holy book bible which I find retrograde and repulsive and indicative of poor minds who have written these lines which are in turn resposible for the not so progressive attitude amongst the followers of christianity who are forced to believe every word of the Book and contrary to the constant repetition of Aman they do not have the free will to reject the words of the book. May I request comments on these passages?? And may I request that name calling(RSS wala, lsd consumer , mouse and much more) which our good christian Aman resorts to should be controlled.
I begin with the status of women as defined in the most holy book;the bible:
The women have been belittled, humiliated and denigrated by the following verse of the Holy Bible, in which Biblical God has cursed all women that He will multiply their sorrow and they will endure pain of child-birth and that their husbands shall rule over them because of their no fault but that of their first grandmother Eve eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. Will any educated woman believe in and approve of being ruled by her husband as declared by Biblical God in Bible ? Here is the relevant verse :
43. ?16. Unto the woman he (God) said, 1 will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.?
– Genesis, 3/16
My humble question is ; does this appear to be a thought by the Almighty??
And here is another example of the Holy Bible denigrating women ; Is this book is to be really obeyed in totality or free will is possible;if yes how much free will is possible for will it not be disobeying the word of lord. Here it goes
“Test for unfaithful wife by making her drink bitter water”
Holy Bible prescribes test for faithless wife as under : ?If a wife is suspected of faithlessness by her husband, she will be brought before the priest. The priest will put her to test by making her drink water, which causes curse. If the woman is defiled and has committed the sin of having sexual intercourse with the man other than her husband, the water will make her belly swell and her thigh shall rot.? Here is the text :
But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband;?Â
– Numbers 5/20
Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;?
– Numbers, 5/21
And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot; And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.?
– Numbers, 5/22
And when he bath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot; and the woman shall be a curse among her people.?
– Numbers, 5/27
Is this not the stuff on which the great christian civilization is built??
Why did Biblical God not institute similar test for unfaithful husband ? The above four verses indicate the partiality of Biblical God and injustice to women. Should not the women awaken from sound slumber and raise their strong protest against their denigration and humiliation in the name of religion ?
And now I want to put down something which the bible says justifying SLAVERY. Who on earth after reading it will say that this book can be fully followed. With such grave deficiencies are all christians required to still follow it or they have the free will. And what about the mindset of the person or GOD who penned this horrible piece?
Here are passages from the Bible that clearly demonstrate God’s position on slavery:
Genesis chapter 17, verse 12:
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.
In this passage God understands that people buy other people and, quite obviously, is comfortable with the concept. God wants slaves circumcised in the same way as non-slaves.
Exodus chapter 12 verse 43:
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover: No foreigner is to eat of it. Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it.
God again shows that he is completely comfortable with the concept of slavery and singles out slaves for special treatment.
Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1:
Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.
Here God describes how to become a slave for life, and shows that it is completely acceptable to separate slaves from their families. God also shows that he completely endorses the branding of slaves through mutilation.
Are we all comfortable with such a holy book which is sweared upon and people are made to take oaths on it
And now something on how many innocent people the lord God wants killed.Count all the people God wants to murder
If you look in the Bible, there are an amazing number of people that God wants his followers to murder. For example, in Exodus 35:2 God lays down this commandment:
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Think about that how many people work on the Sabbath — grocery stores, convenience stores, power plants, airlines, hospitals, emergency services and on and on and on. Don’t rabbis, priests and preachers work on the Sabbath? God wants all of them dead.
Then look at Deut 21:18-21. It says:
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.
That is a whole lot of teenagers that we need to kill.
Then there is Leviticus 20:13:
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.
All homosexuals need to be killed. What about this:
If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
That’s a lot of people who need to be killed.
There are two things in this that show you that this God is not great. First there is the utter stupidity of these verses. Second, there is this fact: If God is an all-powerful being, he would kill them himself. There would be no need for people to do the murdering. These people would already be dead.
Notice that believers completely ignore these parts of the Bible. That is because they know that the verses are insane. By acknowledging that their God is insane, they are acknowledging that this book need not be taken seriously
@Sammy
——Christianity has transformed many barbaric communities in this world and it still does.——
Can you site one barbaric community which Christianity has transformed into? And what it still does? other than converting gullible people eh?
——If Hinduism is supposed to be so superior why then in India you find people still acting so immorally, why this country still lacks development?—–
Really you find people in India acting immorally and rest of the world act morally? What a big lie and dishonesty. . I doubt you read international newspaper or news. If you want some news I can site many. Can I post here everyday few crimes happening all over the world to you. And what development you are talking about? Preparation of World War 111 eh!
——-why this country so spiritually dark and full of blind beliefs like Sati system and others? But look at the West, how Christianity transformed.—-
This is the reply for your question : The Catholic sex abuse cases are a series scandals in a number of countries relating to the abuse of minors by Catholic priests, that first rose to widespread public attention at the end of the 20th century.[1] In 2001 Major lawsuits emerged primarily in the United States and Europe, claiming that some priests had sexually abused minors.[2] In the U.S., the country with the majority of sex-abuse cases,[3] the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned a comprehensive study that found that four percent of all priests who served in the U.S. from 1950 to 2002 faced some sort of sexual accusation.[4][5] The Church was widely criticized when it emerged that some bishops had known about abuse allegations, failed to report them to police and reassigned accused priests after first sending them to psychiatric counseling.[2][5][6][7] Some bishops and psychiatrists contended that the prevailing psychology of the times suggested that people could be cured of such behavior through counseling pastor acting immorally with kids.
This is just a glimpse, I can bring many such cases in front of you with links and citing newspapers with dates.
NOW COMPARE THIS TO SATI SYSTEM OF INDIA. Reading European history you will find in the name of witchcraft innocent women were burnt live in E past. What a blind belief eh!
Mary Queen of Scot was executed. Read history of king Henry. The execution of 2 queens; Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard. This is just few examples. In present also crime rate is much higher in other countries comparing to the population of India.
————After being benefited so much, you backbite. You hate anything foreign, but you would prostrate for $$$$ eh? About conversion, if Christians are converting Hindus, you should explore the reasons why people get converted? May be you should also try to convert Christians back, tit for tat..none opposing.——–
Don’t worry we are doing the same. Can I know from you who asked British to invade India? Why..Why..Why? They robbed India for many years. Do you have any account for that eh?
My advice to you refrain from maligning other religion. Practice what you preach.
Dear Samy!! Your problem here is that you are reading with people who are not gulible like poor and simple tribles in the remote areas who fall for lies of the church and are defraded of their soul for school fees. You impose on them the PROSTITUTION of soul and call it help
And your argument are so simplistic and erroneous. If you are still convinced of the civilisational and cultural superiority of your dreamlands in the West think of the Nazi did to fellow human beings ; do you want the photographic proof of that??? And all the torture method that they used were simply copied from what method the catholic church used in inquisition. You want proof of that?
And talking of corruption ; the mother of currupt countried is Switzerland which is taking care of all the money looted form the poor of the world. They feel no guilt about it and openly justify it. I think this rogue of the world nation lies in your pure west
Do you want me to continue? I can do it for a mellenium. And the reason for this is that the fountainhead of this religion the Book itself contains matter which misguides and confuses. See the examples above and for God sake start thinking ratinally for a change
A religious concept, particularly of an arrogant religion must explain the complete phenomena of life; christianity to me does not. To me it appears a predatory political movement of the Church which has been headed by popes who were vile and cruel and who went to the extent of officailly permitting torture on non believers
If you really want to prove your conviction , begin by telling me this; IF CHRISTIANITY DOES NOT BELIEVE IN REBIRTH WHY ARE PEOPLE BORN UNEQUAL?/ IF THERE IS ONLY ONE BIRTH THEN WHAT IS THE FAULT OF A CHILD WHO IS BORN WITH AIDS AND WHO DIES BEFORE HE IS BAPTISED? WHERE DOES HIS SOUL GO AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THIS SOUL
Sorry for using the upper case here but it is required to keep the focus so that we do not go astray and beging the abusing session as it is happening above. Warm Regards to you
Sammy!! Sorry I missspelt your name.
Please ponder over this. How in a (so called) secular democracy Islamic laws are made applicable on hindus are aggrieved party. If this has really happened then hindus cannot expect to get justice from anywhere ? India has become worse than an Islamic republic for us hindus as there is no safety for our womenfolk, even for the minor girl children who can be forcibly kidnapped and married off. Read on..
http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=10042&SKIN=B
It seems nobody is interested in thinking about the plight of a poor villager or a poor Brahmin in India. It seems the material from holy texts written 100’s of years ago is more important. If anyone wants to know why conversions take place, look at what interests people, not at what is right or wrong.
Dear All: I am getting a sense of deja-vu as I read most of the comments here.
There have been almost 500+ comments on this topic spread over five threads, excluding this (see the links under Related Posts above).
I think most of what needs to be said has been said. I might let this thread run for another week or so and then close the discussion on this topic for good.
For those who wish to delve deeper, please have a look at this whole category of posts on conversions.
Thank you for joining in the debate.
@mia paul. It is not that simple friend. These fanatical texts are driving the world even today. So the fanatic threads in these books have to be identified and edited.
You are so kind at heart thinking of poor Brahimins of India. Go ahead and help them ; who is stopping you. But why do you want to make this help conditional and ask him to convert ??? You do not have any answer for that
And if you feel the religious text mentioned above are too old to be relevant are you prepared to disown them??/ Do answer; dont give a vague answer.
I never owned the old texts so there is no question of disowning them. I am intrigued by your fascination with them. B.. or K.. or others. A few lines, verses, chapters, or books of violent text can not negate the strength of a religion. The strength comes from the number of followers at high places, money, investments, and the ability to win friends and influence people and to conquer more land and minds. Leave the sammys and amans and mia pauls alone. Think about things and issues that might make a difference.
@mia paul!! Wonderful. And we thought the religion was about salvation. And here you are talking about money , investments , friends and influencing people. So which religion cannot do it. All are doing it. And what is this about conquering land; with relgion?// You really make me sick
@ashok. You have hit the nail on the head. Is it about salvation or is it about money and power? That debate should take place before the debate about conversions. If you think religion is (only) about salvation, and if you aren’t right, all your efforts towards preventing any wrongdoing (whatever you think that is) will be futile. If you are puzzled by the mention of land in this context just find out who the biggest land owners (after government) in India are. Instead of googling Bible and searching a few phrases, try googling something else.
But you (or anyone else) have not answered my questions about the dilemma of the villager or the poor brahmin. For 100 Grand, is it right for a poor villager to convert?
It is you who is not answering my questions. Is not what you are suggestiing prostitution by selling your soul. Lets say a Brahmin has a pretty wife and someone is prepared to pay him out of his poverty but wants to sleep with his wife. Should he opt for it. Knowing your mentality you would say yes. I would say no. No to selling your soul even for a trillion dollars. You got my answer??
Ashok:
3:16 – My humble answer is: If you can remove the rss glasses & look at it as a statement of fact from The Almighty, you will see that there is no flaw in it.
It’s a statement of fact: You will experience the pain of childbirth. You will be overpowered by your love/desire for your husband.
What do you see wrong in that?
As for punishment for adultery to the male, read this from Proverbs: http://net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=Pro%206:32-35#n7
And you’re quoting from the Book of Numbers, without realising that it is actually the Jewish text (that the Bible & the Koran added & revised to a degree). Are you aware that there is an Old Testament & a New Testament??
Do you know that from Abraham to Moses to Jesus to Muhammed, they kept improving upon the wording & interpretation of the older laws, added new ones, so that the message was kept relevant to an evolving audience.
Are you forgetting Christ’s forgiving of the adulteress? http://www.answers.com/topic/let-him-who-is-without-sin-cast-the-first-stone
This link will definitely help you understand a little more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Christianity
Please read up.
I will humbly ask you to read up more on the subject before you make claims of knowing anything about Christianity or the Bible (or anything about the Abrahamic faiths or their History, context etc.)
Shantanu, I’m done here. Thanks.
@Aman!! Do not quit so fast sir. You have not said a word about the orders of murdering people by the lord God???/ Why this deafening silence Sir. So you could not find even a lame excuse here.
Do not keep chanting RSS RSS. I not one of them.
Yes I know what is old testament and the new testament. I them very well and have read them.
Talking of the constant improvement in the text which appear to be silly it does give and indication that you do ack that the orginal word of God seems to be so imperfect
I have given just a few softer exmaples of such texts. The new and particularly the old testament is full of these.
But no point elaborating on these; You have said you are done here. So let us call it a day. It was great being alongside you . I forgive you all your abuses that you heaped on me. I am not an RSS wala. But I think anyone who has an opinion different from you has to suffer this tag. It is
Christ did say ‘Do not do to others what you would not want done to you’. But I found whereas you reacted angrily to other people calling you names, you were pretty free with invectives and insults. Not fair Sir. Bye!!
@mia paul!! Friend!! conversing with you gives me a feeling of standing in a bazaar. So the dilemma of the poor Brahmin intrigues you. And what about the dilemma of a poor women who is offered some grands for her body. Say someone takes a fancy and offers 100 grands. Should she give in. Why not by your logic. After all it will relieve her and her family of the misery and she will be able to move ahead in life. No answers???/
I feel selling one’s soul and body for physical benefits can be called nothing except prostitution
Yes ! If she is convinced of the superior philosophy of a religion after understanding the religion then she may happily embrace that religion. But I have demonstrated to you the what kind of ‘lofty’ thoughts are contained in the basic book of this religion.And you yourself have exposed yourself stating that this is all for money and influence and power and land and what not. Such erroneous book can bring forth such demented thoughts only. It is none of your fault.
Ashok,
I’d have responded to each one of the slurs you tried to heap upon the Bible, but after reading your first two utterly laughable attempts, I didn’t think it was worth the effort. If your first two steps were actually stumbles, why bother to wait & see you take the actual tumble? 🙂
The fact is that you do not know the Bible. In fact, someone like you is incapable of appreciating the good in any religion, not just Christianity.
And I thought, since you were assuming that somehow I was a Christian, it would be OK for me to make an equally if not more accurate assumption about your rss leanings. 🙂
And trust me, mia-paul is referring to a fact. Those who convert, do so because they are convinced in their minds of the superiority of that particular message over any of the others. Care to argue with Dr. Ambedkar on conversion? 🙂
Aman!!
You have not responded to my specific querries and never tried to be aplologetic about invectives that you heaped on me . These are not slurs on Bible ; I have asked you all logical evidence based querries to which you have give vague answers which stretch one’s imaginations.
I did ask you why the gospel cannot be taught to a follower of krishna while he is reading Gita too. You said it can be done. Then what is the need of conversion?? No answer!!!
You have implied at places that one does not require religion to find God and all religion are equal( words to this effect) Then why conversion ??? No answer!!!!
I asked my friends justifying propagating christianity as to how does this religion explain people being born so unequal and suffering at the birth itself for no fault of theirs in this birth. No answer!!!
You justify what mia says ; openly justifying sale of soul for monetary benifits a concept which is BANNED under the Indian law. And you say she is right and you claimed to be much learned .
And when you do not find suitable answers you start to bluff and when you cannot even do that you start to abuse and then you project yourself as more civilised and educated. And all these smilies- well these keep me entertained nontheless
I am sure you will like to have the last word and what better way than a real nasty abuse;
Mean while show me one instance where I have personally attacked you even once and you have my advance apology. I belong to a faith which is tolerant and has not victimised or attacked others ; it has only been a victim for last one thousand years but we are not even allowed to cry and protest even as such cries make us communal. We are only good as long as we let our souls be plundred and culture be destroyed ; mia promises 100 grands for such souls.
You will say these are ramblings
Ashok,
I gave you an answer. Plearse go back & read. I said there is no need for conversion to be taught the Gospel.
I know you’re not blind, so then in desperation ab jhooTh ka sahaaraa le rahe ho???
Please do not try to blame your lack of comprehension on me. The fault lies with your inability to read, remember & understand.
Aman;
It seems I am dealing with people who are capable of telling lies not only to others but to themselves too.
If gospel can be taught and God can be reached without the device of conversion then why divide society through conversion???
And you have not commented on illeglity of conversion through allurment which mia is blatantly justifying and you have cleared her views are right
And you have not commented on my querry as to how christianity explains people being born unequal with children being born with AIDS and leaving this world without being baptised. Where do their souls go?/( asked you a few times without no response). An arrogant religion which seeks to CONVERT people to its own ways must have this answer.
Also if you choose to address the above specific querries of mine I would also seek your opinion if there is a possibility that Gandhi’s(a man you admire and hold him as an icon) soul would have gone to heaven since he was not a practicing christian.
Can you give STRAIGHT and simple answer or views on these simple querries. We can close the discussion then if you want.
And do not blame my comprehension. I am ok with it. I do not lie and ask what I feel is right. And do not arrogate too much wisdom to yourself. The way you respond, you are antithesis of what a christian should be ( as ordained by the Christ standing that evening on the mount when he spoke to the multitudes)ie if you are a christian.
Ashok,
Simple answer to that one.
Different people, different takes on things.
I think the Gospel can be taught without conversion. Theology colleges agree with me. Most clergy do not. It’s a conditioning issue.
Similarly, I think that all messages of all prophets are good. You believe that the Bible is evil. This too is a conditioning issue.
Remember what they say about changing the way you look at things & it will change your World? 🙂
And I state again. I answered your first two misunderstandings, but until I know that it’s getting through to you, why move ahead? If you can’t pass class 2, why promote you to class 3?
And I never said I was a Christian. You are assuming that. I am a Christian, in the way Gandhiji was a Christian. 🙂
Also regarding the terms “illeglity” & “allurment”, can you get me “data” on what “percentage” of conversions are effected through “allurement”?
And again, do you care to argue conversion with Dr. Ambedkar?
=>
And again, do you care to argue conversion with Dr. Ambedkar?
=>
Hmmm…why did Dr. Ambedkar choose Buddhism and not Christianity or Islam? Perhaps Aman should read some of Dr. Ambedkar’s writings on those two religions.
Aman !! You have again scrited some imp issues and gone for some spelling mistakes; not sign of a great mind. Missing the wood and going for trees.
I am busy ; shall get back. Meanwhile why did you omit commenting on the soul issue particularly that of Mahatama Gandhi. And you have ommited any reference to the issue of God ordering so many murders. Can you explain away this too with your circular arguments?/
And the illegality( spelt it right this time) of mia recommending that should not a poor Brahmin accept some grands for conversion.
Thank God you atleast consider me 2nd class pass. It will do atleast for interacting with you since you come out with childish logic;
And yes ! You have been silent on why are we born unequal and why some infants are born with terminal deseased like AIDS and die before being baptised and where do their souls g
All simple questions from class 2nd provided you address these squarely.
Sorry it is skirt and not scirt ; wrong spells offend you I know
Ashok:
“And I state again. I answered your first two misunderstandings, but until I know that it’s getting through to you, why move ahead?”
Why don’t you admit like a grown up man that your first two accusations were dispersed in the breeze as all accusations without substance or weight are? Once you admit that, one can move on to the others. If you wanna play, those are the rules boy. If you watch cricket, you’ll know that if a bowler get’s whacked in his first two overs, he is quickly taken off. So go back to the nets, read up, make sure you’re spot on (& not getting hit for sixes), then come back.
kaffir:
Let’s sort out the accusation that “all conversion is coerced” first please?
Aman!! Let me clear your ideas once and for all. Better get down to mother earth and stop making rules for me. I do not accept your rules and I do not accept the explanations given by you. These are evasive . How illogical can you be. You give an explanation and consider me committed to your logic. Dont you have some grey cells. You keep calling me a 2nd class pass and behave like a person who has not ever seen what a school looks like
I gave you many parts of the old testament which will leave any right thinking human being with some sanity aghast but you keep bluffing and pick one of them and give some insane explantion . Does not the whole language to you seem revolting. Does not the mind who has written it seem vengefull and barbaric. How can you be so brainwashed out of basic logic. See for yourself, does this language seem to you coming from Lord Of Universe eg (Unto the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.Genesis, 3/16
?) And this is a milder piece . This is simply nothing as compared to the verses where he orders ruthless murders for minor offences and sanctions keeping of slaves. He spends so much time on method of keeping a slave and lays down detailed rules for following this barbaric practice. You think Lord God will be talking of keeping slaves?/ And you have smartly omitted to even mention these issues. Do not think others are fools. I am now going to site to you the more insane and barbaric portions which even your twisted mind will also not be able to refute. You wait and let me find some time and meanwhile pray that the blog owner’s patience should run out. And if you are a man of honour give me answers ; do not hoodwink and do not run away.
You keep ducking the important questions that I raised and then give me sermons and make rules for me. Are you mad ?? You are trying to lay down YOUR RULES so that you do not have to submit to scrutiny of my questions. If you feel so cornered why dont you leave.
This blog is on christianity and conversions and I had raised some issues which concern these. If you are peeping in here, answer these or stay out as mia is doing since she has no answer to my rejoinder where I compare conversion by monetory compensation to PROSTITUTION.She had more sense than you to keep mum. You tried to tell me that she is right????
Now I will get back with the hard hitting evidence which will prove to all here how illogical and at places barbaric is the book which guides christians. I will prove to you that it is in need of serious editiing. And hereafter I am not going to take more silly nonsense from you. If you try the obfuscation technique , I will just post for the information of the readers and ignore you.
And you better not resort to abuse. You will get it back this time. Enough is enough. I am changing my stance from turning of the other cheek ( new testament) to eye for eye ( old testament). Doesnt it intrigue your great mind as to why could not Lord God make up his mind once and for all. The lord says some thing in the old testament and then says something diameterically opposite in the new testament Atleast he would have spared you the effort of giving queer sounding explantions
–
Ashok, Aman, All: As I mentioned in my comment above (#27), it feels to me we are covering ground that has been walked over many times before…
I am therefore giving everyone the opportunity to comment one last time before I freeze the discussion on this thread temporarily…
Makes sense?
From Western evangelists damaging established Church:
It is not every day that one has lunch with the supreme head of a religious order. But I got this opportunity when I went to interview the Most Rev Dr Joseph Marthoma, the Metropolitan of the Mar Thoma Church.
…Dr Joseph Marthoma…is a widely travelled man. One of his recent trips was to the riot-ravaged district of Kandhamal in Orissa.
“The situation has improved a lot,†he says. “The churches are being reconstructed. However, the old wounds are still there.†Dr Joseph Marthoma puts the blame on the vitiated atmosphere on western evangelism. “The drawback is that they denounce other faiths and cultures,†he says. “Theirs is a hit-and-run evangelism. They have no long-standing presence. They do great damage and the sufferers are the local, established churches, as well as the poor people…Because of their aggressiveness, the riots took place in Orissa.â€
I agree with the Blog owner
Another face of Christianity ? A Dalit hindu was forced to eat human excreta by the so called High Caste Christians ? The so called brotherhood among all Christians and the moment a person is converted to Christianity the discrimination ends etc., are just mirage to hoodwink the gullible poverty stricken people so that their souls too can be harvested.
Please go through the link :
http://www.ptinews.com/news/467718_Dalit-youth-alleges-he-was-forced-to-eat-human-excreta
After all when the so called secularists claim that all religions are equal and lead to same God why there should be conversion at all. They have made a mockery of everything.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/230709/At-last-Vatican-moves-on-shocking-child-abuse-scandal.html
OPED | Thursday, January 21, 2010 | Email | Print |
At last, Vatican moves on shocking child abuse scandal
Shawn Pogatchnik | Dublin
Ireland’s Roman Catholic bishops are being summoned next month to an exceptional Vatican summit with Pope Benedict XVI to shape the pontiff’s response to child-abuse scandals, church officials said on Wednesday.
Normally, bishops gain a papal audience only once every seven years. The precedent for such a gathering is Pope John Paul II’s summit with US cardinals in 2002 following exposure of a wave of child-abuse scandals in the American priesthood.
Irish Government-ordered investigations published last year documented decades of Catholic cover-ups of child abuse within the Dublin Archdiocese as well as the church’s Dickensian network of residences for troubled Irish
boys and girls.
The Dublin report, published in November, examined the cases of 46 priests who molested or raped children — and why bishops told police nothing about any cases until 1995 when the first victims began pursuing civil lawsuits. It also documented how police and other state child-welfare officials treated Catholic officials with deference, ensuring that the church could protect pedophiles in its ranks.
May’s published report on Catholic-run orphanages, residential schools and workhouses nationwide found that orders of Catholic brothers and nuns engaged in systemic physical, mental and sexual abuse of tens of thousands of children from the 1930s to 1990s, when the last of the institutions closed.
Both reports found that officials kept abuse cases secret to protect the church’s reputation. A taxpayer-funded commission has already paid out nearly euro1 billion ($1.4 billion) to more than 12,000 surviving residents of the children’s homes, while the Dublin Archdiocese estimates it could pay out more than euro20 million ($ 30 million) to settle lawsuits.
– AP
Dear All: Further to my comment @ #46, the discussion on this thread is now closed.
For a glimpse into the earlier discussions (spanning 500+ comments), pl. see the links to “Related Posts” just above the first comment.
In addition, you may wish to read some of the posts in this category Conversions, Missionaries in India.
Re-opening the thread temporarily to post this news-report:
From Child traffickers from North-East set up base in Tamil Nadu by Arun Ram, TNN, 26 January 2010, 03:58am IST (emphasis added)
CHENNAI: Hundreds of children from the northeastern states are being trafficked by well-networked groups, who have found a safe haven in Tamil Nadu. The rescue of 76 malnourished children, from Manipur and Assam, from a home at Kuzhithurai in Kanyakumari district this week is only the tip of a vast network, which receives crores of rupees from churches and agencies abroad by showing a large number of children under their “care”.
Children from Manipur, especially those belonging to the Kuki tribe, are targeted by traffickers masquerading as evangelists and missionaries as people in the insurgency-hit areas are willing to send off their children if they are promised a good education.
…
The children aged six to 15 are kept in pathetic conditions and are often made to do jobs like carpentry, cooking and laundry. There have even been cases of children dying under suspicious circumstances and some being molested and abused.
Incidentally, a majority of homes charged with trafficking are run by missionaries or evangelical societies. “These institutions exploit religion to make money. With many of them not registered with the government, the homes escape scrutiny,” says Vidya Reddy of Tulir, Centre for Prevention and Healing of Child Sexual Abuse.
A brief excerpt from an ExpressBuzz report: On charges of conversions by Christians, the commission said that there were indications of massive conversions to Christianity by circumstances and inducements, but not by compulsion.
Source: From http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/opinion/28kristof.html
A pop quiz: What’s the largest U.S.-based international relief and development organization?
It’s not Save the Children, and it’s not CARE — both terrific secular organizations. Rather, it’s World Vision, a Seattle-based Christian organization (with strong evangelical roots) whose budget has roughly tripled over the last decade.
World Vision now has 40,000 staff members in nearly 100 countries. That’s more staff members than CARE, Save the Children and the worldwide operations of the United States Agency for International Development — combined.
Christian agent is out again. Please sign this petition http://www.petitiononline.com/dharma10/
If you are in the New York region don’t forget to participate in USHA protest against this pervert!
http://www.ushaonline.org/Downloads/PROTEST_MARCH_FLIER.pdf
Prof Ramdas Lamb’s article in Washington Post is a good one.
An interesting extract from the article below
“In early 2009, Pope Benedict XVI met the Chief Rabbinate of Israel and agreed to stop all conversion attempts directed at Jews. A month later, Cardinal Jean-Louis Pierre Tauran, president of Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, visited India and was asked while there if he would offer Hindus the same respect. He refused. There is a degree to narrow mindedness in every religious tradition, but when that is coupled with fundamentalist arrogance and powerful backing, nothing good can come from itâ€
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/ramdas_lamb/2010/03/missionaries_the_good_the_bad_and_the_ugly.html
Please read the article from the above web site and there are many more written by Prof Ramdas Lamb . Just google
The Faith Panelists section in Washington Post has very good articles.
Hi Shantanu and others,
Pardon me, if I am writing out of context here.
I am trying to enquire the credentials of a charitiable organization called “Divine Light Trustâ€, Whitefield, Bangalore, India. Its trail lead me to its sponsor called ROSE VZW, based in Belgium.
Does anybody in this group know, if its a missionary organisation?
The reason: my niece got an interview call for recruitment in this org, as she is a candidate specialized in teaching children with learning disabilities.
I do not want her to join an institution that has anything to do with missionary organisations.
Any information on this is appreciated.
Thanks in advance…
RV
RV: A 10-minute google search unearthed the following information.
***
From a comment on a blog:
ROSE vzw is a volunteer organization based in Leuven, Belgium with the objective of giving a helping hand to less-privileged children in rural India. ROSE was established in 2001 as a VZW organization (Registration Nr 0474.242.896) with this objective. It should be noted that this organization was started and is being run by the Masters/PhD/Postdoc students from Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium.
One of the projects funded by Rose is St Anthony Balwadi, Ternamaki in Karnataka.
From the website of the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven:
As a Catholic university, K.U.Leuven is a critical centre of thought within the Catholic community. As such, it is deeply concerned with the relationship between science and faith and with the dialogue between the church and the world.
also:
Founded in 1425 by Pope Martin V, K.U.Leuven bears the double honour of being the oldest existant Catholic university in the world…
***
Can readers who may be familiar with the organisation pl. share their views?
If you unearth something new, please feel free to post it here (with links and references). Thanks.
Some info on the Divine Light Trust:
From a pdf report:
Similarly, the Jesuit-run Divine Light Trust for the Blind near Bangalore has become a resource centre to train teachers in mainstream schools in order to encourage the inclusion of blind children in their classrooms (Coleridge, 1993).
From the website of one of the Trust’s donors, St Vincent’s Church:
Divine Light Trust for the Blind send their sincere thanks for the donation of £1100 and for your kind generosity and support
From another page on the St Vincent Church’s website:
Committed to do more than talk about faith, Frederic, with a small group of friends, formed the first “Conference of Charity,” which met weekly to contribute to a secret collection and then visit the poor in their homes. Today, the worldwide St. Vincent de Paul Society continues this type of quiet service through its almost one million members. The Society of St Vincent de Paul, or SSVP, is a worldwide confederation of national charities with nearly one million members. Membership is open to men and women, young and old. The SSVP asks that members accept fully the Christian ethos of the SSVP, and are committed to express their love of God through personal service to their neighbour.
***
Presume that the Divine Light Trust you have mentioned in your message is the same one I am talking about.
With respect to a link in the incoming post (https://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/10/18/missionaries-targeting-india-5/), the comments made in the article on the external site (http://in.christiantoday.com/articles/view-enlightening-our-hearts-this-diwali/4646.htm) are dripping with hypocrisy.
On one hand the commenter’s wish happy Diwali. On the other hand, they can’t help but express their exclusivity by claiming their faith to be the ONLY truth and answer. Such supremacist bigotry is the root cause of conflicts plaguing the human species. Fundamentally, there is no difference between them and the likes of Taliban. The only difference is that while Osama-bin-Laden and his ilk are aggressive and upfront about their totalitarian bigoted ethos, the “holier-than-thou” supremacists mask that under a veneer of subtlety, finesse and shameless hypocrisy!
Survival of the fittest is the law which governs the animal nature prevalent in western culture.
CONVERSION – IS PERVERSION
CONVERSION – IS GROSS VIOLENCE
CONVERSION – IS ERROSION OF CULTURE
CONVERSION – IS AGGRESSION
CONVERSION – IS INTRUSION IN ONES PRIVACY
CONVERSION – IS DIVISION
CONVERSION – IS INVASION
CONVERSION – IS DESTRUCTION OF RELIGIOUS HARMONY
CONVERSION – IS DOMINATION OF LAND AND PEOPLE
CONVERSION – IS TERRORISM
BAN CONVERSION AND SAVE THE NATION
=>
“Survival of the fittest is the law which governs the animal nature prevalent in western culture. “
=>
Yet in a forest, one would find animals like deer and rabbits (not so fit – according to your theory) as well as lions and tigers (fittest), who prey on the former. Survival of the fittest doesn’t imply that the fittest animals (like lion) get rid of, and exterminate the not-so-fittest animals (like deer) – they only take as much is required for their food. Your example seems to me yet another instance of the misuse of the cliché “survival of the fittest” – which is thrown around without much understanding – to explain human behavior.
Additionally:
In nature, “survival of the fittest” happens over generations because of genetic variations, and is not a conscious process. (i.e. A lion doesn’t say, “Oh, I’m the fittest and strongest, so let me go out and kill all the other not-so-fit animals.”)
Take a look here. Now they need a private militia …
http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/orissa/Christians-may-form-militia-for-protection/Article1-334915.aspx
They did not feel lost so they felt no need to be saved….
courtesy Atanu Dey. Pl take 10mins to watch this video.
Please see this article today from TIME:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20101208/wl_time/08599203586200
White Christians openly use derogatory, racist word “Tigan” (Untouchable) to call Hindu-origin Roma (Gypsies), just like they still use “Nigger” for Black/African-origin people.
And the same White Christian supremacists use cooked-up “untouchability” propaganda as an excuse to justify converting poor Hindus in India.
@Definance,
Why would not they? Gypsies or Roma people have a strong Indian origin who ran to eastern Europe to save themselves from Islamic prosecution. More than thousand years passed and European society still have not learned how to assimilate them, but they have learned how to chair various human rights commission so that they can lecture the “third world” on human rights.
and now Telangana for Christ
http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2010/12/26/telangana-for-christ/
K Chandrasekhara Rao said that Christians will get their due rights only in the new state. “I have alloted 25 lakhs for building a church in Mahboobnagar, and will be spending similarly every year,†he said. “When the Telangana state is formed, I undertake to build churches with government money. There will always be one slot reserved for Christians in the state cabinet.â€
Somasekhara Comm finds BJP, Sangh not respnsble 4 church attacks in Karnataka (2008). Derogatory literature & issue of conversion main reasons. http://bit.ly/hn1yuj
Conversion lobby is going too far with their diabolical agenda. Consider the struggle that Sadhvi Pragya is going through without any credible proof against her. Now Swamy Aseemananda is the next victim. Whether he is really culprit or not is a matter for court to decide. Unlike the crowd that worships Binayak Sen, we are not preposterous enough to suggest that he should be released without trial before the courts. But please sign this petition to ensure that there is justice to both likes of Aseemananda and the victims of the terror which he has been alleged to commit. We do not want to repeat the things that happened with Sadhvi Pragya, do we?
Two news-reports from today:
From a report in The Hindu titled, “186500: Vatican official on India-Pakistan conflict and Indian approach to religious freedom”:
2. (C) Elaborating on religious freedom issues in India, Murphy said a victory for Hindu Nationalist party BJP in India’s general elections next May probably would not be good for the Catholic Church. The BJP has favored anti-conversion laws on the books in five Indian states. These are of concern to the Vatican, even if they are not being applied, because they create a hostile environment to religious freedom and discourage the conversion of Dalits in particular.
****
From a report titled, The world is coming to an end, so follow us to Bethlehem by Ram Parmar in Mumbai, posted On Sunday, April 24, 2011 at 04:39:39 PM:
..Five priests from Vasai converted hundreds of tribals from Devkhop village near Palghar to Christianity, saying the world will come to an end in 2012, and only those living in Bethlehem Jesus Christ’s birthplace will survive.
The tribals’ families stoned the bus sent by the priests for the converts
William Dias, Santa D’Souza, Alphonso Dabre, Simon John D’Souza and Solomon Shinde, all parish priests, were arrested on Thursday from Devkhop, around 11 km from Mumbai.
They told the tribals who had converged in the village that within a matter of minutes, they would vanish, only to reappear in Bethlehem, Israel.
Families of the tribals alerted the police, and the priests, along with their aide Hari Wadhan, were arrested.
Police said preliminary investiga-tions revealed the tribals were misled to ensure they convert to Christianity, and the priests didn’t take any money from them. However, many tribals sold their lands and cattle, thinking those would be of no use in Bethlehem.
Palghar resident Ashok Bhole, who along with activist Parag Gharat accompanied the tribals’ families to the police station, said the priests were “brainwashing†the tribals for the past 10 days.
“These are poor people, many of whom have not stepped out of their village in decades. They were promised trips to a foreign land (Bethlehem) and cash,†he said.
yes this is going on in suburbs of Mumbai. Posters on railway stations near the ticket counters.
Pictures of apocalypse, tsunami, jesus christ. My question is why are the christians indulging in such cheap tactics to induce people to embrace christianity?
Weird, Apocalypse, eh!
Putting this here for the record..From a BBC report from more than 11 years ago: ‘Church backing Tripura rebels’, Tuesday, 18 April, 2000, 10:11 GMT 11:11 UK
By Subir Bhaumik in Calcutta
The government in India’s north-eastern state of Tripura says it has evidence that the state’s Baptist Church is involved in backing separatist rebels.
Tripura Chief Minister Manik Sarkar said state police had uncovered details of the alleged link after questioning a church leader.
Nagmanlal Halam, secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, was arrested late on Monday with a large quantity of explosives.
Mr Sarkar said that allegations about the close links between the state’s Baptist Church and the rebel National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) have long been made by political parties and police.
Now for the first time, he said, hard evidence supporting the allegations had been found.
…
The NLFT is accused of forcing Tripura’s indigenous tribes to become Christians and give up Hindu forms of worship in areas under their control.
Last year, they issued a ban on the Hindu festivals of Durga Puja and Saraswati Puja.
The NLFT manifesto says that they want to expand what they describe as the kingdom of God and Christ in Tripura.
could not stop myself but to share this joke.
Each Friday night after work, Sardar would fire up his outdoor grill and
cook a tandoori chicken and some meat kebabs. But, all of his neighbors
were strict Catholics … and since it was Lent, they were forbidden
from eating chicken and meat on a Friday.
The delicious aroma
from the grilled meats was causing such a problem for the Catholic
faithful that they finally talked to their Priest. The Priest came to
visit Sardar and suggested that he become a Catholic. After several
classes and much study, Sardar attended Mass… and as the priest
sprinkled holy water over him, he said, You were born a Sikh, and raised
a Sikh, but now, you are a Catholic.”
Sardar’s neighbors were
greatly relieved, until Friday night arrived. The wonderful aroma of
tandoori chicken and meat kebabs filled the neighborhood. The Priest was
called immediately by the neighbors and, as he rushed into Sardar’s
backyard, clutching a rosary and prepared to scold him, he stopped and
watched in amazement.
There stood Sardar, holding a small bottle
of holy water which he carefully sprinkled over the grilling meats and
chanted: “Oye, you were born a chicken, and you were born a lamb, you
were raised a chicken and you were raised a lamb but now you are a
potato and tomato”
After all, –Singh is King
The Role of Evangelicals in U.S. Imperialism
by Iain Buchanan.
Interesting:
Christians welcome Supreme Court order on Salwa Judum, Published Date: July 6, 2011:
Christians have welcomed the Supreme Court’s order to disband Salwa Judum, an armed civilian vigilante group formed to fight Maoist insurgency in Chhattisgarh.
Pl read in context of comment #73 above.
From Case filed against religious conversion in Kashmir:
Police registered a case on Saturday on the basis of allegations that Christian missionaries in Kashmir were encouraging conversions. It is likely to arrest a pastor whose name figured in a complaint lodged before the Grand Mufti of Kashmir.
Keeping in view the sensitivity of the issue, the Srinagar police registered an FIR under sections 153-A, 295 and 186 of the Ranbir Penal Code. The decision was taken at the highest level to avoid possible unrest in the Valley.
“We have registered a case and we are looking into a CD which has been given to us in support of the allegations made about the conversion,†a senior police officer told The Hindu on condition of anonymity. However, no one had been named in the FIR. That would be done after the investigation was completed and the allegations were prima facie established.
Placing these translations by Sudhir Kumar here for the record:
Andhra Jyothy is the third largest circulated newspaper in Andhra Pradesh. From November 10 to 16th, the newspaper ran a six-part series on religious conversions in AP. The following is a translation of their articles. No personal views have been recorded in any of the six parts below. Part 3 original was published here. (Part 1, Part 2)
Part 1: http://centreright.in/2011/11/andhra-jyothy-proselytizing-unlimited/1/
Part 2: http://centreright.in/2011/11/andhra-jyothy-proselytizing-unlimited/2/
Part 3: “Andhra Jyothy : Proselytizing Unlimited!”
http://centreright.in/2011/11/andhra-jyothy-proselytizing-unlimited/3/#.TtSUX7JzMQx
Somewhat related (via Radha Rajan-ji; emphasis added):
http://www.hydromissions.com/links.htm
Hydromissions International is all about Jesus Christ – we have no desire to become just another humanitarian relief organization. If you would like to be added to this page, please contact us. The following links are all organizations and individuals whose primary objective is to share the love of Christ through water ministry. Please support them as they faithfully serve Him.
http://www.hydromissions.com/asia.htm#india
In March, 2009, Hydromissions founders, Steve and Jennifer Lorch flew to the town of Tuni in the State of Andra Pradesh to work with CCIMA Mission. Together, a well was put into a coastal area using a local sand drilling technique. This well gave local Christians the open door to construct a church gathering place which had formerly been denied (for several years) by the village leaders. This “foot in the door” is a great move forward in sharing the gospel with an unreached area, and it is the hope of CCIMA to continue this type of outreach to many more villages annually.
Adding this here for the record: State has no right to meddle in conversion cases: HC, 3 September 2012:
A new controversy is set to dog religious conversion and re-conversion with the Himachal Pradesh High Court ruling that changing religion is a matter of one’s personal belief and the State has no role to know whether it is a forced or free conversion.
If upheld by the Supreme Court, this order delivered on Thursday last, can have widespread ramifications on the raging debate on conversions and pave the way for people to change their religion at will without requiring them to give prior mandatory intimation to the local District Magistrate.
Holding that the Act was contrary to the right to practice any religion and the right to privacy linked to Article 21 of the Constitution, the bench of Justices Deepak Gupta and Rajiv Sharma held on Thursday, “A person’s belief or religion is something very personal to him. The State has no right to ask a person to disclose what his personal belief is.â€
The decision is expected to be challenged before the Supreme Court owing to its impact on the State’s effort to curb forced conversions.
An example of the unholy nexus between evangelization, corruption, a 2000acres land grant & Congress http://j.mp/YvcDQR
From YSR family comes under helicopter cloud By A SRINIVASA RAO, 18 February 2013
The tremors of the VVIP helicopter scam were felt in Andhra Pradesh after the spotlight fell on the family of the late former chief minister Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy and his evangelist son-in-law Anil Kumar.
Carlo Gerosa, the business partner of controversial arms agent Guido Haschke and allegedly a middleman in the multi-crore scam that helped AgustaWestland clinch the deal to sell 12 helicopters to the Indian Air Force, was associated with Arbor Charitable Foundation India – a Christian missionary and service organisation based at Karunagiri of Naidupet block in Khammam district.
Sources said Arbor began its fully-fledged activities after the organisers got in touch with then chief minister YSR Reddy in 2007…
Read it in full…
Adding this well-referenced article here for the record: EVANGELIST MODUS OPERANDI IN INDIA: A REPORT
Placing these 2 links with extensive references and documentation here:
http://sighbaboo.blogspot.in/
and https://twitter.com/sighbaboo/media
“Bro Bakht Singh” – who “launched an indigenous church-planting movement in India that eventually saw more than 10,000 local churches planted throughout India, Pakistan and offshore Sri Lanka.” http://j.mp/VXaamK
The last sentence is telling: “No foreigner was visible (at his memorial service) so as not to lend credence to the false rumor that Christianity is a foreign religion.”
Courtesy Sanjay.
Superb fact-based research by Shiva Kumaran over at IndiaFacts.co.in: Gospel for Asia and its Indian connections
Posting this link here for the record: Is religious conversion really a fundamental right, or can we ban it? by Jaideep A Prabhu, Sep 8, 2014.
My quick thoughts (following a hurried read): Makes some interesting points. I felt the distinction (and the nuance) between voluntary conversion and conversion that has its roots in aggressive (or coerced, induced) proselytisation could have been made more clearly.
It also misses the angle of foreign funding of evangelical organisations (pl see https://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/03/31/foreign-funding/), which I believe is more of an immediate and potent threat.
From “The mendacity of conversions”,a brief quote:
If you thought conversions and re-conversions are a “modern” problem, think again…
Here’s Swami Vivekananda on Conversions, courtesy Sh S Gurumurthy:
Vivekananda had warned against conversions. He said, “Every man going out of the Hindu pale is not only a man less, but an enemy the more.”
..
I am not against any religion. But I am hostile to the Christian missionaries in India, said Vivekananda
…
I protest against certain of the missionaries’ methods of raising money in America, said Vivekananda
…
In The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda” (v. 5, p. 233) Swami gives a detailed plan & procedure for what is today known as “Gharvapasi”
Placing this link here for the record: Anti-Christian acts: The myth and reality, February 25, 2015 by Vivek Gumaste
Excellent fact-based piece, richly referenced: “Hindus are on the Hit List” by Sumedha Sarvadaman
Exceepts from (emphasis added):
THE PENTAGON’S MISSIONARY SPIES: U.S. Military Used Christian NGO as Front for North Korea Espionage
…
But as the evangelical Christian Hiramine crossed the stage to shake hands with President Bush and receive his award, he was hiding a key fact from those in attendance: He was a Pentagon spy whose NGO was funded through a highly classified Defense Department program.
The secret Pentagon program, which dates back to December 2004, continued well into the Obama presidency. It was the brainchild of a senior Defense Department intelligence official of the Bush administration, Lt. Gen. William “Jerry†Boykin. Boykin, an evangelical Christian who ran into criticism in 2003 for his statements about Islam, settled on the ruse of the NGO as he was seeking new and unorthodox ways to penetrate North Korea.
….
It is unclear how many HISG executives beyond Hiramine knew about the operation; Hiramine did not respond to repeated requests for comment and neither did any of his senior colleagues. Few, if any, of the rest of the organization’s staff and volunteers had any knowledge about its role as a Pentagon front, according to former HISG employees and former military officials.
…
Before it was finally dismantled in 2013, Hiramine’s organization received millions in funding from the Pentagon through a complex web of organizations designed to mask the origin of the cash, according to one of the former military officials familiar with the program, as well as documentation reviewed for this article.
…
In its first two years, HISG was little more than a fledgling faith-based charity.
…
That same year, Boykin was named deputy in the newly created office of the undersecretary of defense for intelligence. Boykin had a special operations career that spanned many of the U.S. military’s most high-risk missions prior to 9/11. He served as commander of the Army’s most elite unit, commonly known as Delta Force, and oversaw the Black Hawk Down mission in Somalia in 1993 and the hunt for Pablo Escobar in Colombia.
…
The CIA was kept in the loop. Within a year of his arrival to his new position at the Pentagon, Boykin dispatched a Pentagon staffer to the CIA to help coordinate the new and increased human intelligence operations abroad.
According to former military officials, Boykin took a page from the CIA’s playbook and looked for ways to provide cover for Pentagon espionage operations. Hiramine’s group was one of several NGOs used by the Pentagon in this way. Some, like HISG, already existed as fledgling organizations, while others were created from scratch by the Pentagon.
The espionage effort was one of the most secretive programs at the Pentagon, called an unacknowledged and waived “special access program,†or SAP. The designation meant that Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was required only to brief the chair and ranking members of both appropriations and armed services committees, who were not allowed to take notes or bring in staffers.
The Defense Department intelligence operations primarily focused on counterterrorism, but the efforts also extended to Iran and North Korea, where the military sought elusive intelligence on those countries’ nuclear programs.
That’s where HISG came in.
…
The Pentagon would eventually move sensors and small radio beacons through Hiramine’s transportation network, according to another former military official. Much of what Hiramine was doing was what the military refers to as “operational preparation of the environment,†or OPE, a category that encompasses clandestine intelligence gathering and prepositioning equipment inside a country for future conflicts.
…
Using an approach pioneered by the CIA, the Pentagon obscured the origin of the funding for the organization. “If you expose the money, you expose the network,†said a former military official who is critical of the program’s lack of oversight.
The organization received one stream of funding via a for-profit company called Private Sector Consulting, which was run by Hiramine, his partner Michael McCausland, and other HISG executives, and shared addresses and phone numbers with HISG in Colorado, according to public records.
…
“It was our pure funding that made†HISG, one of the former military officials told me, explaining how the Pentagon provided the money for salaries to Private Sector Consulting.
A second revenue stream arrived at HISG via a private trust and another nonprofit, Working Partners Foundation, which was incorporated in late 2004, around the same time that Private Sector Consulting was launched and the Pentagon program was rolled out.
Here’s how it worked.
The Pentagon funneled money to the private fund, which was run out of a law office in Minnetonka, Minnesota, according to a former military official familiar with the arrangement. The fund, called New Millennium Trust, was run by retired Army Col. Thomas Lujan.
…
Next, according to tax filings, New Millennium Trust would donate money to Working Partners Foundation, which was run by a prominent Colorado car dealer named Yale King starting in October 2004. King was also a “dear friend†of Boykin. In his autobiography, Never Surrender, Boykin recalled receiving a fax from King while recuperating from an injury sustained during an attack on the U.S. base at Mogadishu’s airport. The fax consisted of a single Biblical verse. “I can’t explain why Yale sent that fax halfway around the world when he did,†Boykin wrote, “but I felt it was exactly the message God wanted me to hear.â€
…
King earned $252,000 as the director of Working Partners Foundation in 2006. According to tax records, New Millennium Trust was the sole funder of Working Partners Foundation. The Pentagon money passed through King’s foundation, which made donations to Hiramine and HISG. In total, New Millennium Trust gave Working Partners Foundation $11.9 million between 2005 and 2014. Working Partners Foundation, in turn, passed $6.5 million to HISG between 2005 and 2012, according to tax filings.
To help Working Partners maintain the appearance of a legitimate charity, each year the foundation donated smaller amounts of cash to bona fide NGOs, such as Catholic Relief Services,
…
In all, HISG operated in more than 30 countries, significantly funded by the Pentagon.
According to former employees, public records, and HISG’s former website, the nonprofit conducted disaster relief; provided food, medical supplies, and clothing; and helped start small businesses in countries including Niger, Mali, Ethiopia, Kenya, Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, and China.
…
Read it in full here:
I have yet to verify the information here but posting it for the record: 5 Truths Accidentally Revealed by an American Student on a ‘Mission Trip’ to Karnataka, Aug ’17