On Religious Freedoms and Secularism

Post on Secularism

Indian Nation is NOT SECULAR AT ALL. Hindu temples are forcibly taken over by the so called Secular State, mismanaged in the name of managing them by nominating political cronies to administer and loot the temple monies. There is blatant interference in the religious affairs of hindus by the State. Where the funds are spent, how the funds are spent is not made public.

Then there is Haj Subsidy, Jerusalem subsidy etc. This is discrimination by the state on the basis of ones religion. By no stretch of imagination I am not able to comprehend how a Secular State can discriminate on the basis of religion. India is not a Secular State. It is a pro-minority dispensation with a secular cloak to cheat the majority hindus from their fundamental right to religious freedom.

I find opposition to secularism – even the straightforward idea of separating state from religious matters – puzzling. Do Sanatan Dharma followers want the state to involve itself or not..Abrahamic religions are structurally different from Hindu traditions, in that they have direct prescriptions for how the state should be run and by what laws. Given their exclusivist fundamentals (articles of faith) there is little hope in avoiding conflict if their followers are pious and religious. Hope if one can call it that lies in lesser religiosity on their part and a more secular and democratic approach to politics and matters of society and the state.
Your policy sounds good and is definitely a good start – but the challenge is getting the ‘religious’ from Islamic and Christian traditions to speak with you on any such policy

Shantanu – i’m still awaiting a simple-to-understand and short definition of ‘Dharma’ – i feel a lot of discussion (pointless) happens as each of us operate with different meanings in our heads.

Shantanu,

While the ideals are generally good, the real test lies in how details are dealt with.

Some questions:
– Should Article 30 be repealed?
– Should one only tolerate the other religion or should one respect it?
– How does this policy play out in the field of education ie will text books blank out everything deemed offensive or include everything irrespective of political correctedness?

There obviously are many many specific areas of the constitution, legal case histories etc that need to be addressed before a revised secular policy for India can be formulated.

Sanjay

Rohit,

You are right.

> I hope you guys don’t believe that you descended down from chimps

Humans and Chimps share a common ancestor, but humans did not evolve from chimps. Humans and chimps are cousins. Here is a 1 minute clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh0F4FBLJRE

But I didn’t understand why you mixed this finer scientific nuance amidst rest of the rant.

Revel in your animal ancestral, trying_to_help. Make a family tree for yourself with first folks hanging upside down from a branchless tree… Help_Yourself. The finer scientific nuance was for Christians like you who are good in licking whitish stuffs.

Sashwant,

Try vedas or go to http://www.aryasamaj.org

There was nothing till the thought i be.

Read Ramayan and Mahabharat more carefully. Try some publications from Gita Press Gorakhpur. Read with the time period it is relevant for.

Sashwat Gupta,

One more point. Sanatan Dharm does ask one to place common sense above all factors of human body that need no proof of existence. Don’t revel in theories and then planting of proofs around it. However, it is not wrong to believe in your theories. Just don’t impose your beliefs and be wis where you speak about it. For example Bhagwad Gita is science. But guys like Amartya Sen believe that they are better equipped in mental capacity to debate with Sri Krishna. What they can’t do is produce a work better than Bhagwad Gita. What they can do is debate. While doing this he forgets that he himself is debatable and sometimes such debates lead to loss of life. He is white stooge who opens his mouth in front of nincompoops and pussies. If he is that powerful a debater, can he go around and debate with a talibani in swat valley or indulge in formal debate with Arya Samaji with of course, some sort of punishment after he loses debate with arya samaji?

Rohit – Can you clearly tell what is your point. You are free to follow Sanatan Dharm at home. Why should State have anything to do with it,

Vishak

@Rohit,

How can you use George Bush and Plato in same sentence. That is really funny. And then Bush and Moore are no heroes and they support totally opposite views.

Coming back to the main topic – It seems like you are against separation of state and religion and you want state to support only one religion. Do you want India to be a Hindu State like Pakistan is an Islamic state?

Just trying to understand what you are trying to get to.

Anupam

Rohit – It seems you do not understand Sanatan Dharma.
Can you please let me know what it means. Let us talk details.
No more of empty talks.

Vishal

To Vishal:

Sanatan Dharma is the root of Bharat. It teaches everyone has the right to seek his or her path to self happiness and peace seeking the experience of learned or creating a path of own. It also places common sense above all factors in human body that need no proof of existence and stands for destruction of adharma.

Let’s hear your views.

That is a very market place definition of Sanatan Dharma just like Christianity love thy neighbors. That is fine.

For me Advaita tells about the non dualistic nature of world

brahma satyam jagan mithya
jivo brahmaiva napara.

This is incredibly close to the views of scientific world.

@Vishal. It is quite alright if one believes or not in any form. It is also quite alright if one believes even in Satan or such other allegedly evil spirits if he keeps such a belief to himself. There is no harm in such practices. But the trouble starts when somebody starts to push his belief into the throat of others. The resentment starts after seeing what is happening around us, in other nations which are created by vivisection of our country. Mercenaries are sent to destabilize and create havoc in our country. The only reason is “religion”. Why there is a problem in Kashmir and hindus are driven out. Tell, whether seculrism will prevail in this country the moment demography changes adversely to hindus.

As far as we understand real secularism is not practiced in India. It is a new type of “Secular religion” which is heavily loaded against hindus. Tell whether in a secular dispensation is it proper to take over and administer temples, maths etc.? Whether it is proper to appoint politicians and their cronies from ruling parties to mismanage and siphon of funds from temples ? Whether it is proper to give haj subsidy, pension other benefits to madrassa education where necessarily religion is taught. A secular state is expected to keep away from the religious affairs of its subjects. Religion is strictly a private affair and the state should be neutral. In India it is not secularism. It is a new type of Secular religion aimed at vote banks for usurping power. Simple and straight.

*** COMMENT EDITED ***

‘Secularism’ is not a faith, it simply means non-involvement of the state in religion.

Total baseless definition and that is why I call it as religion. Religion is Islam/ Christianity. Rest is Sanatan Dharm in India which allows everyone to exist in peace in India… Be is Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainis, Followers of Sri Ram or Sri Krishna or Shree Shree Ravi Shankar or Osho etc.

@Rohit: how can you call that definition ‘baseless’? Its basis is an English dictionary, because I assume you’re speaking English. What is the basis of your definition, a dictionary you wrote yourself?

Riots: that is a false and unfortunate statement you’ve made there saying only Christians and Muslims indulge in rioting in India. There have been so many riots on the basis of caste, even in Sikhism.

Your ‘dealing’ with Rajiv over there is full of drivel which has nothing to do with the topic of this article. If you believe in Sanatan Dharam, why are you imposing it on others? How is that ‘peaceful coexistence’?

As for Gandhi, he was probably was the only person who had the guts to prevent a riot in the thick of it. He neither caused genocides nor spread hate, which is why he was a great man. What have you done besides spreading hate hiding behind your computer?

To Salil,

I said Christianity and Islam are religions in India rest is Sanatan Dharm. Stick to your definition and get rooted in Sanatan Dharm. Agree?

Disagree. I might choose not to subscribe to Sanatan Dharm, why are you forcing it upon me?

@ SALIL “As for Gandhi, he was probably was the only person who had the guts to prevent a riot in the thick of it. He neither caused genocides nor spread hate, which is why he was a great man. What have you done besides spreading hate hiding behind your computer?”

Let’s debate on Major Sargent Gandhi and also debate on what you have done behind your computer or a borrowed one. I have given you the start.

Salil, Vishal,

Ok guys, define what is religion and what is Sanatan Dharm and we have example of Raja Bhojadeva/ Guru Teg Bahadur and Salil’s super duper Major Sargent Gandhi.

I am sticking to topic. I gave Gandhi as example because he is god of secularists. Didn’t salil get hurt by his faith in a singular person who happens to be his epitome of perfection and so great that he is a god of Salil. See I proved that secularism is religion. The India god of the religion is Major Sargent Gandhi.

To Bhuvan,

That is what even I am talking about. Governance has got nothnig to do with religion: Christianity and Islam. But these secular FTI guys are saying governance is Christianity and Islam. Let Sanatan Dharmis feed their flesh and blood so these seculars can survive is the message they are giving out. The same message that Major Sargent Gandhi gave and got millions and millions of Sanatan Dharmis wiped out and left the remaining to be wiped out by jehadi factory of Muslims and Christians who start with honey laced conversion tactics and then end up with guns unlike in past when they started with guns and ended with bible or death for remaining. I guess gANDHI did it because life would have been boring for seculars

(Not biting Rohit’s bait to stay on topic)

To answer Sanjay’s questions:
– Should Article 30 be repealed?
No, the article talks of educational institutions. What is wrong about it?

– Should one only tolerate the other religion or should one respect it?
One should tolerate other religions and not disrespect them. If the other religions infringe on the other fundamental rights of others individuals, then there are legal and constitutional ways out to sort out the matter without disrespecting the religions.

– How does this policy play out in the field of education ie will text books blank out everything deemed offensive or include everything irrespective of political correctedness?

This is a tricky one. The saffron vs communist historian debate is an unending one and some middle ground should be attempted. There are some blatantly bigoted statements in many textbooks which should be disallowed. I’m wondering if there is a way possible where textbook writing is removed from the clutches of the govt and transferred to an independent body and textbook matter is verified and approved by autonomous universities.

Dear All

Interesting (but surprising) debate/discussion. What surprised me is Rohit’s claim to represent anything; by not making a single coherent argument but incessant libeling (e.g. FTI members, FTI being Christian, about each and every person who wrote on this post, etc. etc.). So let me start by addressing Rohit (which is something I do with great trepidation, but it may be worth saying it, just once).

@ Rohit.
Dear Rohit, a few general comments about approach first. You have criticised everybody – quite badly – including political parties: No one, not even Hindus are exempt from your diatribes.(Apparently only Arya Samajis are exempt – but many of whom do not believe they follow Sanatan Dharma in the form practiced by the majority of Hindus [many members of my family – not me – are Arya Samajis and would be shocked, I am sure, at your claims to represent Dayanand Saraswati in any form or shape].

Btw, have you read much about Dayanand Saraswati and about his life? A most powerful debator, but never a foul word against anyone: pure knowledge was he. Indeed, it is was his distractors who did not know anything about the Vedas who used foul language against him and also got him poisoned and ultimately killed him. Even on his deathbed he forgave the poisoner. Magnanimity personified.

I humbly request you to consider your approach to advocating Sanatan Dharma/ Arya Samaj. I say this because a negative (almost nihilist) approach is violative of the first principles of leadership. No one will follow your ideas (even if there is a core of merit in them) if you use the kind of language you are using. Vivekananda (another Indian teacher whom I read a lot) never once criticised any other religion apart from the facts of the case.

Enough said. On a separate note, all of us (as citizens) are responsible for the affairs of the nation. You blame others, but what about you? Are you the only one who is blameless? What is your duty as a citizen? Have you an alternative model of governance that you advocate? Or are you happy with the corruption you see around you?

I have a suggestion for you to consider. You seem quite intelligent. So you can do this. Do you think that all is well and good in India? If not, can you please conduct a detailed diagnosis and write an article or book about the causes of the problem? Then propose a detailed plan of action for the people of India and let them decide about it. Avoid replying to this email or any other for the next two years. I next look forward to hearing from you through an excellent book written by you that you are sure will persuade others to your views. You may refer to my book for an illustrative plan of action (free e-book now, 100%, at http://bfn.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/). Aspire for greatness as a leader. We are desperately short of leaders in India: our educational system has produced clerks but not leaders. Become the change you want to be, as your nemesis Gandhi, said. Avoid lesser objectives.

@Sanjay
RE: Article 30 my current view is that we have to keep trying to minimise the role of religion in education. Religion, my view, must teach people about the soul (if any); it has no business to teach us history, science, or geography. How can it do so anyway? What are its qualifications? So while Article 30 need not go – at least not yet – the approach to education should make it redundant. Have a read of my article on school education at http://sabhlok.blogspot.com/search/label/Policy%3A%20Education

Re: Role of the state in history. History is constantly changing and being debated by expert historians. This is an area where schools should be free to prescribe/ recommend any book they like – while also suggest to students that they read alternative books to make up their own mind. The state should have NOTHING to do with education syllabuses/ content at any point in time. That is really important. Let experts debate out such things and let schools first teach critical thinking to students, enabling them to see that all histories are mere reconstructions of the past; not one history is 100 per cent true, just like not one science book is ever complete or fully true.

Regards
Sanjeev
http://sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/

I miseed this post. Will read and reply on weekend.

*** COMMENT EDITED ***

@ Rohit – “Be practical. Secularism is Christian theory. We do not need Christian theory”

So is the language you are writing in. As is the decimal system and the commonly used calendaring system in the world today. And, the automobile. And, pennicillin. And the PC you are typing on and the internet that you are using.

*** NOTE by B Shantanu ***

All: I would appreciate restraint in this discussion. Thank you.

@ Rohit –

And, I am saying that you are adding secularism wrongly to your construct – what has passed for secularism in India in the past is of limited importance – beat the Congress-wallahs up on that. No skin off my back.

Secularism means separation of the state from religion. Religion is your private matter and you are free to practice it as you deem fit, as long as that does not hurt others (and I count bribes induced conversions as hurting others).

The state shall not interfere in your religious practice and beliefs.

But, at the same time, you shall not being your religion into state matters.

What is your problem with the above definition, which, incidentally is the correct defintion of Secularism.

You are free to organise all the Hindus that you want to protect and to be protected by – but, do not bring the state into it.

Peace guys, This is a place where some quality discussion should take place. We are not helping ourself through such portrayal. I hope we can take some lessons from past and won’t start fighting ourselves.

Jai Hind!

Everyone should stick to decency of discussion. I am not making a remark on any one personal. FTI policies are as good for criticism as British policies of policies of congress are. Secularism is something in which FTI is competing against Congressis and the likes. The only thing they have done is written down commandments like it is there in Bible. They want to feed this as perfection which is against basics of nature. Nothing in world is perfect. We need to strike a balance. Secularism is a total failure everywhere be it French Secularism or US Secularism or Turkey Secularism or Congressi Secularism. FTI secularism is nothing but a finer worded version of these secularism combined.

Great! now this looks clean slate! As I said FTI is competing against Congressis, French, US in secularism. For frenchs and US it was a must because Christianity has some barriers which are good if gotten rid of. All faiths of India be it Buddhism or Sikhism or follower of Shri Ram or Jainism or Sanatan Dharm etc don’t have the essentials that need to separate governance from religion because all are based on premises that it is ok for other to practice his or her belief as per his or her wishes. Secularism was needed in US or Australia or France because Church denies right of existence to anyone who is not a Christian and doesn’t go to Church. The zeal of missionaries is something that cannot be matched by anyone but a Talibani who again have the same zeal due to religion. Secularism practiced by US is flawed for it allows it’s missionaries to do in India what they are unable to do in US. Sometime back, the native Indians who were wiped out by these same Christians now preaching secularism and remaining converted to Christianity returned Bible to Pope saying that it has not given them peace for the last centuries till it was dumped on their head forcibly. Turkey is a secular nation… Who would go to Turkey and believe that he or she can live in peace? Pakistan was founded by a secular man Jinnah (as claimed by Jaswanti, Advani) but we know what secularism Muslims practice. Do we need to rake up the rule of Aurangzeb or Timur the lame and his entire lineage?

Secularism actually gives right to Christians and Muslims to carry out their tasks more smoothly. Both have a factory to produce exploding humans. Christians reformed with time and covered their tongue with honey and sugar but their basic has not changed. They openly flaunt right of existence of non Christian blatantly and feed bible as the only way to God. How will secularism deal with these issues when it professes not to take side of religion but in everyday of governance it will have to deal with religion?

And what will you do when all Sanatan Dharmis will stand up and ask for return of Temples which were destroyed by muslims?

I have interacted with Christian missionaries and found that they are beyond sense of reasoning. What will you do with guys who are beyond sense of reasoning?

OK, so are you saying that secularism is not required in India because we are already secular (which we are constitutionally) or are you saying that if India adopts “Sanatan Dharma”, we will then become truly secular?

All under Sanatana Dharm or faith native to this land are secular. Those who are not under Sanatana Dharma or faith native to this land are not secular. I guess I do not need to pull out religious texts or historical facts to support this. That is why US or France needs to separate religion from governance although it is a failure like the Sikh debate in US or France or Sanatan Dharmis debate in west from time to time on issues like nude paintings on underwears etc. What you need to do is reign in these two like with strictures on code of conduct of mullah or a missionary so that they stick to saying good inside buildings and say nothing religious outside buildings.

Factory thing:

Christians and Muslims have the tendency to indulge in faith based separatism and denial of right of existence to non follower of Islam and Christianity. For this they do anything. I can pull out specific examples if you like but I guess everyone in here knows how these religions spread and what happened to the natives where they spread.

Being secular does NOT mean letting one (or more) religion(s) infringe on the rights or freedoms of others.

A Christian believes it is his right to talk about Jesus the only path to God because a book says so or rather Jesus commands to do so in the book. If such person eg Graham Staines gets killed who is responsible? My answer is anyone who insists that Jesus is the only right thing of life ought to be executed first because he is preparing grounds for riots. Muslims are a bit crude but effectively carry the same message. The fundamentals are totally opposite to faith of natives. Christian won’t leave any tribal free till he converts that person… Refer Africa.

How can secularism deal with these issues. How will you stop a person from distributing money in India or let’s say on what grounds will you stop Christian missionaries coming to establish hospital in order to convert? How do you think IM or SIMI breed in India? Is it due to faith of natives? Secularism is good where it is written. We need leaders like Shri Narendra Modi, Guru Teg Bahadur etc. We do not need secularism to grow.

Dear Salil,

Try eliminating any of the faith native to this land not falling under your definition of secularism. You will get the answer.

@Rohit:

A Christian believes it is his right to talk about Jesus the only path to God because a book says so or rather Jesus commands to do so in the book.

So let him. Which fundamental right of yours is infringed if he talks so?

If such person eg Graham Staines gets killed who is responsible?

The person who conspired to kill him – Dara Singh.

My answer is anyone who insists that Jesus is the only right thing of life ought to be executed first because he is preparing grounds for riots.

Why? He can have opinions and beliefs and you can have your own. Opinions dont cause riots, actions do.

We need leaders like Shri Narendra Modi, Guru Teg Bahadur etc.

Why?

We do not need secularism to grow.

But you said in comment #67 that Sanatan Dharmis are secular. So you dont want Sanatan Dharm to grow?

A Christian believes it is his right to talk about Jesus the only path to God because a book says so or rather Jesus commands to do so in the book. Is this provable in court of law?

Why is the law involved in mere opinions.

I now wonder where was action and where was opinion during 1947.

Jinnah believed in the 2 nation theory. That was his opinion.
He gave a call for the Direct Action Day which caused riots. That was his action.

Having an opinion is not unlawful. The state does not get involved there. But when that opinion is translated into action by making speeches that incite riots, then it is a matter of law and order and the state gets involved.

What is wrong if a Christian has an opinion about the path to god as long as he is not forcibly converting or inciting violence? And you say a person should be executed for having an opinion?

Taliban/ LeT/ JeM/ SIMI/ Naxals/ Mizo national fronts etc also have opinions and they are very expressive before getting into action.

The opinion of terrorist groups stand for infringing others’ rights – by killing them, which a Christian’s opinion of path to god does not.

There is a difference in saying ‘My way is the only way to god’ and ‘If you dont accept my way, I will kill you’.
The former can be ignored or you can agree to disagree with it. But the latter threatens life and should be prevented.

So Sanatan Dharmi should essentially listen to shits and craps like in this web site

The website has a person’s thoughts. It does not incite violence or endorse forced conversion. If you oppose the thoughts, write your own content on a website and put it up.

And maybe that is why leaders like Guru Teg Bahadur/ Raja Bhojdeva/ Chhatrapati Shivaji shouldn’t be talked about.

By all means talk about them. Who stopped you?

@ Salil:

Glad to meet the messenger of Pope. There’s is no point in talking to missionary. For example if you ask to a missionary: Why did Christians wiped out natives where ever they went like in United States and Australia, he will answer what you will answer if you try to answer. Only time will be a fitting reply to missionaries and your likes.

@ 1947 Partition:

It is your baseless ease, basically to please yourself so you go ahead and please yourself. Jaswanti also pleases self with Jinnah theory like Advani.

Vishal Singh:

What FTI is preaching is not what is written and it will not act on what is written as it is clearly evident from Salil’s view points that it is ok to do all disturbing acts in society. A verbal/ written act as per him is not disturbing. But any act leading to loss of life of his dear Christian brothers is not. He has a selective preference for a muslim/ christian/ sanatan dharmi and we do not need to tell where his preference is.

Secularism, by FTI, is sourced from US/ France/ England who wanted to separate Church from governance but is and by Christians. It is nothing but refined Christianity.

Ignoring Rohit’s comments, here are something FTI members (Mr. Bhagwat or Dr. Sabhlok) can address:

– How (or if) the government should decide religious holidays? A hindu might ask for more holidays on diwali and might argue that he’s willing to work on Ramzan? Should the government have ANY religious holiday at all or should a X number of days per year be allocated as vacations to take any time of the year?

– What is FTI’s take on UGC (a government body) approving university degrees on Jyotir Vigyan!! (Vedic Astrology no less!) under Dr. Murli Manohar Joshi? Should there be academic institutions handing out degrees in Astrology and Vastu Shastra?

– On a related topic, should the government be involved in funding “research” in Homeopathy, Yunani, and other pseudo-sciences?

– Should the children in public funded schools be saying prayers to Mata Saraswati? I went to a semi-government-aided school and we (“proudly”) chanted sanskrit mantras on tuesdays and thursdays. It was not optional. But looking back, it was definitely not fair to the couple of xian and muslims in the class. Surprisingly, I was moved to (!!) that school since my previous semi-aided-convent school had some bible reading. So, the question is should public-funded or semi-public funded schools have any religious teaching at all?

– Should the government be any way involved in religious festivities? Ex: Mysore Dasara? Can the CM of a state appear (not in personal capacity) for celebrations like Yediyurappa did?

– Should a PWD engineer perform Bhoomi-Puja and ask for auspicious moments from a Jyotishi while working on a state-funded project? Perhaps the engineer would also like to ask the opinion of his priest in his church or his maulvi for the best moment to perform his work.

– State run transportation coroporation (buses): Should they operated more buses to support a particular religious celebration? I saw a lot of Jatra-Special buses in my childhood, not sure if they are still operated.

– Should the government ban Cow slaughter? Should it support Go-samrakshana samitis?

– How about loud speakers announcing morning prayers enough to wake everyone in a 10 km radius? There’s a temple near my house in India which starts shiv bhajans at 6 AM. A mosque did the same near our previous dwelling. Should the government regulate this?

I am from a state whose state legislative assembly sits inside a building on which it says: GOVERNMENT WORK is GOD’s WORK 🙂 So, achieving a decent state/religion separation is not an easy task. Keep the discussion going, so I can learn more. I have commented previously under a different ID, but I will stick to this from now on.

Salil,

I do not need extra clarification from your end on how to interpret a written statement which is aimed at proving Shri Krishna inferior to Jesus especially by a Christian and what is the purpose of such a statement and where do you emerge from when you say that such a thing is right and also what missionaries do and say is right.

Islam/ Christianity/ Vedanta

Sanatan Dharm (don’t use terms like Vedanta for convenience) is all inclusive while Islam and Christianity are all exclusive with denials of right of existence of someone who is not Muslim/ Christian.

Sri Krishna is not Sanatan Dharm but a part of Sanatan Dharm. Sri Krishna is ultimate authority for many who believe in Shri Krishna as supreme. I haven’t made any comment on person they revere or their supreme, I have only made a comment on what they preach and what they do, that too, because they are eager to preach without invitation and in person. For acts, I guess I have to die or become a Salil to historical facts. I didn’t have to read a Bible or Koran to form an opinion on what they preach but they form an opinion after reading Mahabharat or Bhagwad Gita or Ramayana. Christians are not commenting on what Sanatana Dharma preaches. They are commenting on something that is supreme for a certain set of persons. Now, do you advocate criticism of Jesus or Mohammed because as per you Christians or Muslims are free to do so.

Dear Shantanu,

How can governance and religion be exclusive when governance has to govern over religion too. Secularism is also religion although it doesn’t profess to be religion. My question is how is secularism not a religion. Religion has few basic fundamentals like a unique supreme. FTI secularism’s supreme is the piece of literature which is also with Congress (Party of Christian thought process), France, US, Turkey, England etc.

@Shantanu:

Sorry, I didnt see your comment before replying. Will stick to topic here onwards.

It is false notion to believe that secularism is the answer to religion or good governance in India. First and foremost thing about secularism is it’s birth. Secularism, a term, was coined by George Jacob Holyoake, a British Christian express his freedom of thought from the strictures of Bible. It was coined as replacement for atheism, considered to be negative word, and later on he preferred the word agnostic. So the actual meaning of secularism is separation of Church and governance.

Secularism as we now know is a Christian concept like Jainism or Buddhism or Osho or Sri Ram followers or Sri Krishna followers, numerous others from Bharat with the founders owing roots to Sanatan Dharm.

Secularism is a failure everywhere in world. For example France/ US claims to be secular while it is not so for Sikhs but only for people like John, Tom, Dick whose freedom of thinking is threatened by Bible. And no nation that prospered and had good governance had anything to do with proclamation of secularism. Good governance + nation’s development and secularism are therefore different things when we take into account India. For example, Gujarat has developed under Sri Narendra Modi, not because of secularism but because of good governance (Congress, secular, getting marginalized in it’s home, losing 5 out of seven seats is a testimony to the same). Similarly, Raja Bhojdeva is remembered as one of the best kings to rule India not because he was secular but because he was a good governor. For development, peace, happiness in life we do not need secularism of congress or extra rigid secularism of FTI telling what is right thing to do and what is wrong but good governance which is able to deal with ever changing situation with required action because no native faiths of India hamper progress of science. What we need in India is to remove bigotry prevalent in India and of course some strictures to reign in Christianity and Islam, the basic threat to harmony and peace in India like they are viewed in west.

No political party in this country wins elections on secularism as propagated by FTI or as propagated by themselves (ie Congress, BSP, SP, BJP etc). There are very few good people in this nation and none is secular whether that person is a part of governance or not. The persons who are worthy of leading are not bigots and seculars but men with character and common sense.

In view of this, secularism, is not the answer to good governance. It will only fuel religious schisms in society and promote genocide and riots on lines of 1947 when we had great pillars of secularism in force: Mhd Ali Jinnah, Gandhi, Nehru, Britishers, all educated in Great Britain and followers of British Law and constitution, which still is in force.

George Jacob Holyoake coined secularism in 1851, the real facts how it came to be implemented.

Edgardo Mortara (August 27, 1851 – March 11, 1940) EMortara born in 1851. Good timing of birth.

On the evening of 23 June 1858, in Bologna, then part of the Papal States, police arrived at the home of a Jewish couple, Salomone (“Momolo”) and Marianna Padovani Mortara, to seize one of their eight children, six-year-old Edgardo, and transport him to Rome to be raised as a ward of the state.
The police had orders from Holy Office authorities in Rome, authorized by Pope Pius IX.[1] Church officials had been told that a 14-year-old[2] Catholic servant girl of the Mortaras, Anna Morisi, had baptized Edgardo while he was ill because she feared that he would otherwise die and go to Hell. Under the law of the Papal States, Edgardo’s baptism, even if illegal under canon law, was valid and made him a Christian. Under the canon law, non-Christians could not raise a Christian child, even their own. In 1912, in his relation in favour of the beatification of Pope Pius IX, Edgardo himself noted that the laws of the Papal States did not allow Catholics to work in the homes of Jewish families.[3] That law was widely disregarded due to the ability of Catholic servants to work on the Jewish Shabbat[2].Edgardo was taken to a house for Catholic converts (a “House of Catechumens”[2]) in Rome, maintained at state expense. His parents were not allowed to see him for several weeks, and then not alone. Pius IX took a personal interest in the case, and all appeals to the Church were rebuffed. Church authorities told the Mortaras that they could have Edgardo back if they abandoned their faith and converted to Catholicism, but they refused.
Read from here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara.

Then by a scholar
http://www.davidkertzer.com/en/books/kidnapping_of_edgardo_mortara.html

The case of Edgardo Mortara became an international cause célèbre. Although such kidnappings were not uncommon in Jewish communities across Europe, this time the political climate had changed. As news of the family’s plight spread to Britain, where the Rothschilds got involved, to France, where it mobilized Napoleon III, and even to America, public opinion turned against the Vatican. Refusing to return the child to his family, Pope Pius IX began to regard the boy as his own child. The fate of this one boy came to symbolize the entire revolutionary campaign of Mazzini and Garibaldi to end the dominance of the Catholic Church and establish a modern, secular Italian state. A riveting story which has been remarkably ignored by modern historians,

One Interesting Past Incident

I also did out of curiosity asked Cathy Douglass (www.agapepartners.org), a missionary from US some questions as to what makes her come to India to convert people and does she understand the obvious tensions that results due effects of converting poor, uneducated, unaware natives of India and would she like if others did the same in her country to change the demographies. She had all funny, illogical, blind faith based answers and one of her first reaction to my questions was “Are you trying to convert me?”. Then she had funny stories, too obvious to a laugh and loath and pity, posted by some neo converts who used to appear and then disappear… She or Agape Partners whoever was agape after some discussions with dozen or so torch bearers or neo torch bearers, removed the post altogether from the site. The name of the topic was “three most important skills in witnessing a hindu”, a preliminary to the grand schemes Christians float to disturb the peace in society in lines of what they did in US, Australia, Africa or where ever they went.

One can also read in the Singapore link what these Christians are capable to do if not reigned with uncompromized strictures.

@Nanda:

Hindus are marginalized? Seriously? Whatever makes you say that?

I agree that there is minority appeasement by political classes, but I wouldn’t say that is the same as “marginalizing Hindus”.

This article in HT further strenghten the viewpoint of delinking politics from religion or vice-versa.

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/ArticleImage.aspx?article=01_10_2009_010_004&mode=1

Bhuvan

@Nanda,
Agree to your thoughts that we should not stop doing something that has been followed for 1000s of years for the sake of some converts and migrants.

My Simple question to everyone is:

“What if a guest(1 person) to your house(6 people) starts influencing all your decisions and starts forcing to change some of the traditions which are being followed since your fore fathers?”

My answer is simple: Either ask that person to live with what we have or else leave us alone.

I guess things are pretty clear from this perspective.

-Jai Hind!

Rohit,

There is no audio transcript available. But they maintain a blog where participants have commented. Here is that…

http://rethinkingreligion.wordpress.com/

Another thing is, I would suggest reading Balagangadhara’s “The Heathen in his blindness”. This book changed me completely. He argues that there are no religions in India. All that we read in social sciences is also completely based on a Christian/Biblical framework. For example, the bible says there is only one god, but slowly this mono theistic framework got corrupted into false religions like Hinduism… This is because the false priests driven by Satan lead us to such practices. Based on this framework the Christian missionaries when they first came to India, found the exact correlation… they identified Brahmins as false priests and vilified them thoroughly… Unfortunately 200 years of colonialism has made most english speaking indians to but into this theory….Look at how many Hindus try to naively explain to Christians that yes, we are also Monotheistic…cause the Vedas say so… What we fail to understand is their whole way of seeing the world is through the bible or biblical framework… whereas our traditions give our experiences primacy over our scriptures…

What Balagangadhara is working on is creating an alternative framework to study indian traditions… For example we all read english through our mother tongue… We equate “Worship with “Puja”, but this is not a straight equality… “Worship” can only be offered to a monotheistic “God” whereas we perform puja to the cow, books, all our machines (for ayudha puja)… So we need a totally new framework and language to describe Indic traditions to Westerners….

I am sorry to have taken the debate away from the main topic i.e. “Secularism”…. If you listen to Balagangadhara’s channel on youtube… there is a paper presentation by 2 Indian professors on Baba budangiri mutt or Datta Peeta in Karnataka. They have concluded that by the state being “Secular”, the problems here have only increased….. So we Indians need to find our own framework to solve these problems rather than simply buying the nonsense that “Secularism is the only solution!”

Also refer to this article:

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=556

One last remark for people who may not like Gandhi… I think he was one Indian who refused to buy into the cultural superiority of the West… If at all he moved every Indian it is because he was not ashamed of Indian traditions, and didn’t buy into the Nehruvian drivel of Secularism…

Gandhi as a leader was a failure. You should read Radha Rajan’s “Eclipse of the Hindu Nation : Gandhi and His Freedom Struggle”. This is a historical work that traces Gandhi’s failure as a leader….But the important reason he is relevant today is, he was a typical Adi Shankara i.e. his experiences came before any scriptures. And he didn’t fall into the trap of excessive Western imitation….

Here are some articles by Radha Rajan on Gandhi…

http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1158&Itemid=1

http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1162&Itemid=1

http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1167&Itemid=1

If you listen to the “secularism” debate on Balagangadhara’s youtube channel, the most important point is bala and his group stress that secularism as a concept evolved in Christian theology… but in India long before all that, different traditions co-existed without any need for secularism… we don’t have a clue on how these events have happened because Indian history itself has been interpreted in a Christian/Religious framework…. we cannot simply get away by saying it is because of the Hindu ethos “Ekam Sat Viprah Bahuta Vadanti” because not every Hindu is aware of the nitty gritty details of the Vedas….. I am hoping Bala and his team will succeed in discovering this puzzle and re-orient interpretation of Indian culture in the Indian framework!

@Salil
“Wont the atheist group support the separation of state and religion” – are you sure you talking about Indian atheists 🙂 I can understand why you are not yet aware of the true philosophy of our indian atheists 🙂

“can you please explain with a good example” – In simple terms, everywhere in the world its only seperation of state from church. Only this works. Meaning, this works only where religion is not a life style. It never works where religion is a life style. sanathan dharma is a life style supported by thousands of scriptures providing instructions for every activity in life. Every activity we do can be potentially linked to religion and its foolishness to try to seperate, its like saying seperation of state and life style.
When people can’t handle afzal khan’s defeat, do you think they can handle taking away reservations, pilgrimages and other innumerable privileges..uh.

Though it looks simplistic and short term, I wish all the best to FTI with this policy.

The article by Jakob De Roover having inputs from Balagangadhar is an extremely well researched and well written piece.

We all know secularism is a failure in India. I didn’t even have an idea about background to secularism when I first said that the FTI piece is crap and Christian theory… Sorry Hon. Dr. Sanjeev Sabhlok, repeating the same despite your anguish…. No offence, Patriot, Salil, Vishal and Shantanu. 1947 is the biggest relevant example when we had pillars of secularism leading the show : GANERUZZINS and BRITISHERS resulting in genocide of Sanatan Dharmis

Anyway it proves that if one knows history of Bharat, and has common sense, then he doesn’t need to rely on such well researched paper to decide that secularism is a failure in entire world, especially India and is suitable for Toms, Dicks and Harrys. It is a good source of information for neo seculars, blinded by NCERT text books and history by Congressis and Christians. Development/ unity of nation has nothing to do with secularism but good governance by leaders who are not bigots and are men of common sense and character.

But again, the relevance at this point of time is not an ongoing debate on this religion Secularism which has it’s own exclusivity like US Secularism or French Secularism or Congress Secularism or FTI Secularism because secularism fails to give justified importance to the exclusiveness taught by Islam and Christianity and turns a blind eye to the actions perpetuated by these religions [Refer Salil’s and Vishal’s justification for some things like senseless preaching by Missionaries + denigration of faith of non Christians, Cow massacre] but how to contain and repair the ongoing damage to our nation which is being raped, abused by Christians/ Secularists, Muslims and bigot Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Remember, the secular Pakistan founded by Jinnah and the plight of Sanatan Dharmis over there. Recall the Love Jihad in Kerala and also else where. Recall what Dawood Ibrahims from minorities do and how Dr Zakir Naiks douses the fire on deeds of Muslims. Recall what happens to Sanatan Dharmis n muslim majority state like Kashmir. Recall what Christian missionaries from Australia, USA and else where come to India and do. Why are these missionaries not satisfied in their country where there is money, peace, progress? Why are they so hell bent to convert people? One of the reasons is their pay structure. The missionaries get a huge packet based on the number of conversions they do. You take away their variable pay and within a month missionary will throw the book and look for a better paying job in which he may have to work. Does secularism will answer these problems. Answer is no. Because each and every person is fed Religion since child hood and there is no way that education/ development/ secularism will be able to stop the wheels of mecca and rome like in case of Singapore area 270 sq km in India which has too many complexities to be taken care of.

We are moving towards second instance of genocide since 1947. In future, this may be a triangular genocide with Muslims on one side, Christians + Seculars on other and Sanatan Dharm right in middle. Muslims will find support from Mecca, Christians/ Seculars from Rome + United Nations. Will Sanatan Dharm be able to give the religions a fitting reply?

VHP’s statement with slight modification finds relevance “The world is divided into Sanatan Dharm vs Secularists/Christians & Mohammedans who view Sanatan Dharm as very fine piece of flesh to feast upon”

Salil #112

No offence, only a suggestion, why don’t you have a debate with entire FTI team and then draft your reply? Your answers are repeatedly theoretic. Not that I can’t answers the post with examples but still, repetition is not much helpful.

@ Salil 114

# 113 was suggestion for making your replies, more constructive and not repetitive theoretical approach.

Salil… Most of your attempts to explain are theories or gyaans, on base of ignorance of facts and events, which have direct relevance to your faith secularism. FTI definition of secularism is not a new one albeit an attempt of perfection, which is not possible in this world. It is a slight modification of communist theory, more so, for acceptance. What I am saying is that secularism is failure everywhere in world. Secularism exists primarily in Christian Countries where it is for ease of Toms, Dicks and Harrys. Outside Christian world, it doesn’t exist in Muslim world… Don’t give me singular example of Turkey for ease of senseless arguments. Russia, not a secular country, doesn’t need secularism to prosper or progress, however, I can tell you why it is powerful and what and who indulges in creating roadblocks to it’s progress. But still I will make an attempt to reason you’re your theoretical approach to governance. The next reply, should be output of your consultancy with entire FTI member community.

Secularism, like any other ideology, can never be perfect. We call ourselves a Democracy, but we see electoral fraud and politicians treating the land as personal fiefdoms. Has democracy failed? We call ourselves a Republic, but these days only kids of politicians get to win elections. Has our republic failed?

Secularism has failed. If, 1947 is not a proof then so will not be another Pakistan for seculars or a third Pakistan for seculars. For 1947, no one says failure of secularism breastfed by Her Majesty, everyone says Jinnah and Muslim League. One can keep clinging to secularism theory for another millennia and produce germs of riots/ genocide, and conveniently blame RSS or VHP for the misery. For example, secular people blame RSS/ VHP for misery in country. They fail to come to terms with output of their secular policies. Similarly, the defeat of 1962 war for convenience is heaped on China, no one blames Nehru and his handpicked war in chief, Mr Kaul, a man with zero war experience. If this war would have been with Pakistan, the blame would have been on RSS/ VHP.

Failure of democracy/ republic… It is a vague term… Ask a Naxalite or a SIMI or a LeT or a JeM or a Mizo National Front or any North East Terror Outfit (Learn demography of North East) or a VHP. The only out of these outfits, I mentioned, who would be still a nationalist is VHP guy. The VHP guy would be the first to be ready to sacrifice himself in case of a war with Pakistan or China. Congressi and secularists will be found creating safe heaven for himself or herself while the rest barring likes of VHP would be busy opening another front.

Just like Sovereign Democratic Republic, ‘Secular’ in the Constitution is an ideology to be achieved despite. Every ideology has its faults and we accept it with its faults because the alternatives are not feasible. The only alternative to secularism is its opposite – Theocracy. Anupam already asked you in comment #23 if you supported a Hindu State in India. Your answer was neither yes or no.

It is wrong that alternates to secularism is/ are not feasible. Secularism as a mechanism to address problem of religion and Sanatan Dharm is failure and will be failure. Prior to 1947, the political parties and political leaders on fore were those who are revered like Jinnah and Gandhi. At present there are multiple Gandhis and multiple Jinnahs. With application of maths or logic, the result will be multiple Pakistans/ multiple India. Like Kashmir or like Love Jihad Bombs or like North East. The only thing that matters is when does pregnant secularism delivers the baby, unfortunately there is no time frame around to predict the delivery date. However, the signs of delivery are becoming stronger and stronger, even as we debate. The Muslim parties which rose to fight elections in India in 2009 are direct output of secularism because secularism failed to answer their aspirations. All India Christian Council forcing AICC and All India Christian Congress obliging is direct output of secularism. A YSR meddling in affairs of temple, creating space for Churches next to Tirupati, thereby deliberately disturbing harmony, implementing all schemes and policies in favor of Christians is result of secularism.

Answer to Anupam and yourself: I do not mind if good governance proclaims Sanatan Dharm as official word to describe the faith of India or it doesn’t. What I do mind is what governance does for preservance of Sanatan Dharm and how does it control religions who have foundations/ ideologies that directly clash with Sanatan Dharm.

And why isn’t Jinnah and Muslim League responsible for the genocide? I would consider him as the biggest cause of the genocide.

GANERUZZIN = GANdhi, NEhRU, j(ZZ)INnah. Gandhi, if he led like a leader, should have asked army or police or RSS or likes of Subhash Chandra Bose to help him to quell riots. He should have become the prime minister and led the development of nation, if he really was interested in development of nation. Entire life, he forcefully fed his crap theories without bearing responsibilities of results of practicing his theory. For example, after partition, he forced government to cough out some Rs 50 Crores for Pakistan which was used to sponser Talibanis to Kashmir as the then British commander XXX refused to toe to Jinnah dictat to a armed conflict with India on Kashmir. To current date the amount appears as debt to Pakistan in the annual budget of India. You may apply compound interest on the same, apply inflation and value of money theories and determine the worth the loan is at present date. And also remember that Jinnah was groomed in Congress of Gandhi and Nehru.

Again, you place the blame on the wrong persons. NCERT and history textbooks have been dominated by communist historians who were neither Congressis nor Christians.
Doesn’t really matter because I guess you are wise enough to understand what I am saying and the reactions of yourself which are limited to single post do tell me that you don’t have much idea about history of our Nation or find it uncomfortable to debate on issues like Love Jehad, Chhatrapati Shivaji, Raja Bhojadeva, Christian conversion schemes etc. Difference between Communism and Secularism is not much either… Both emanated from land of Christians. One is clinging to it’s last breaths, resorting to violence and the other breeds fertile ground for riots and genocides.

Refer to my comment #110. If any persons violate others’ right to life or property in the name of Islam or Christianity, they must be certainly punished. But why should any other actions that peacefully propagate and preach be prevented? If members of the above religions forced conversion, punish them by all means.

Pro Christian/ Islam statement. No base, no proofs to support that they are peaceful propagators while the entire history of world says that misery of religious genocides, faith based terrorism and separatism in modern word was born with these religions. Whereever these religions went, they wiped out natives. A statement, in line with Mullas and Baptistos of world, who are bigots and propagator of lies to achieve their purpose, elimination of those not belonging to Christianity/ Islam.

This is too sweeping a statement and generalist to accuse all the above mentioned of being guilty of anti-national activities.

Statements are not always drafted as per individuals. My statements are provable on macro basis. For example, it is not wrong to say that Muslims indulge in faith based separatism and terrorism when ever and where ever they are in majority. Similar are Christians with methods, refined with time, thanks to secular veil which allows them to rule the roost at United Nations. United States of America dealt (or made everyone believe so) with macro level problems with great perfection down to the last individual along it’s new found doggy, Great Britain, post WW II. Where ever it went, it ended up in total shame and loss of face and was able to score zero on a macro and a micro level analysis.

Pakistan is not a secular country even if Jinnah intended it to be. Jinnah died within a year of Pakistan’s independence, so his supposed secular ideas are not responsible for the plight of Sanatan Dharmis there. Blame the theocracy of the Islamic State of Pakistan for their plight.

Sorry, I blame GANERUZZINS and secularists… I do not shift principles for convenience.

The Love Jihad directly violated individual rights. I see no reason why they should be punished on those grounds irrespective of which religion they were converting people to.

How do you know? The so called leader of organization behind “Love Jehad” is saying that he is acting under constitutional rights and secularism…Ease of such declaration doesn’t sound right from followers of perfection to the last atom.

Dawood Ibrahim is a terrorist who should be punished like any other criminal irrespective of his religion. Any terrorist, either from minority or majority should be punished.

Repeat Dawood Ibrahims not Dawood Ibrahim… Do you have imperfect statistics around the rate of output of such faith based terrorism/ separatism and the base source?… A peek at list of terror organizations at website of CIA may be useful for scientific view. [Inference: Give realistic weight to the problems and not generalize the problem]

Agreed there was ethnic cleansing of Pandits in Kashmir. But dont you think Pakistan sponsored terrorists are responsible?

Yeah, but who was providing Men, Machines, Exploding Human Bombs, Logistical Support. Gaddaffi, the nutty witty terror professor from Libya finds support in Kashmir is direct result of whose efforts? Kashmiris, claiming to be different than Muslims wants world to believe it is Kashmiri problem. Strangely, no Muslim Kashmiri, not even one talks about fight of independence of Pakistan Occupied Kashmiris and what happened to Sanatan Dharmis of POK. Shall I recall entire story of Mehbooba Mufti and her dad, the party and it’s policy which bred them?

Many religious people like to propagate their religion. So does ISKCON. All proselytising religions have different methods. As long as there is no coercion or fraud, what is the harm in propagating religion? Do you have a problem with ISKCON propagating their faith in other countries? – I dont.

Really, I never came across an ISKONITE feeding me the only truth crap like missionaries even though I have interacted with ISKONITES few times. Never heard of a single unlawful case of false propaganda, forced conversion, inciting riots/ genocide getting registered anywhere in world against ISKON… Do these things sound alien when it comes to Christianity or Islam?

Honestly, what is wrong with conversion not based on coercion or fraud? If you do not wish that people be converted to these religions, you are free to protect your religion and propagate it. Propagation of faith is based on arguments of ideologies. I’m sure you have the ability to take on an intellectual debate with the missionaries. Why hide behind the protection of the state to disallow them from preaching?

Contradictory statement… Refer your earlier views on yeshusamaj crap and Graham Staines… Remain secular and stay away from religion or first, clear your head as to what is religion, what is Sanatan Dharm. Sanatan Dharm doesn’t always depend upon state support. It acts when state fails to dispense good governance… Eg Rise of Sikhism, Graham Staines, Gujarat After Effects of Burning Train Massacre, Kandhamal etc. My intellectual capability can take on entire world even though, I never go to any temple nor I celebrate Deepawali… It can take on entire FTI together… It can take on the entire Christian machinery from Missionary to Pope BunnyDidIT… You may go ahead and ask cesspool of bigotry and lies like Cathy Douglass aka ASHA whose first reaction to debate with me was “Are you trying to convert me?” at http://www.agapepartners.org and also her NIRASHA. My problem stems from the fact that these bigots approach poor, uneducated, unaware, vulnerable natives who would hardly be knowing spelling or meaning of word Dharm or Karm but are wise enough to not indulge in riots, genocide and live happily with whatever little they have got from the governance of secularists and bigot Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Let these bigots and bigots like you indulge in talk on Religion vs Sanatan Dharm with learned from Arya Samaj or VHP or Gayatri Samaj… Test your intellectual capacities with the learned… Dr Zakir Naiks and Yeshu Samajis can blabber everywhere else but only stammer when faced with learned. Refer to some of the experiences of MK Gandhi with missionaries. The world wide experience, everywhere, is the same, including Christian countries who coined term secularism to reign in Christians.

VHP has a right to their views. They support the declaration of India as a “Hindu Rashtra”. Do you?

I don’t, some searching on my views on RSS, may do you good. I respect action especially one directed towards good governance/ nation building like that of Shri Narendra Modi, Shri PV Narsimha Rao (his era as Prime Minister), Shri Sanjay Gandhi, Pt Ravi Shankar Shukl, Shri Kalyan Singh (for short period of time), Shri JRD Tata, Lance Nayak Abdul Hamid, Shri Abdul Kalam, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Rana Sanga, Maha Rana Pratap, Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Teg Bahadur, Chhatrapati Shivaji, Raja Bhojadeva, Dr Devi Shetty, Rama Krishna Mission, Swami Dayanand, Swami Vivekanand, Baba Ramdev, Air Chief Marshal Sam Manekshaw, Shri KPS Gill, Shri Manmohan Singh (for short period of time during era of Shri PV Narsimha Rao), Sardar Vallabh Bhai Patel, entire defense force which daily lays down life on border, so seculars can breed things like Sachar Committee report and feast on their flesh and blood, Shaheed Udham Singh, Shaheed Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Chandra Shekhar Azad, Khudiram Bose etc.

My respect for VHP/ RSS / Bajrang Dal would be born the day when they actually do something concrete for Sanatan Dharmis of nation like rendering bigot Brahmins, Kshatriyas to their right place, building magnificent temples where there is no bigotry, building institutions for dispensing teachings of Vedas, Upnshads, Bhagwad Gita etc, building world class health infrastructure for Sanatan Dharmis, creating facilities to build quality Sanatan Dharmi with a strong physique, strong intellectual capacity, creating facilities to beat the graduates from likes of MITs, Harward, LSE; promoting Sanskrit, Science etc. My respect would be the day when they unite Sanatan Dharmis to vote for good governance and not for secularism or bigots or religions. My respect would be the day when they are able to give us leaders like Chhatrapati Shivaji, Guru Teg Bahadur, Raja Bhojadeva.

To Patriot:

What I am saying is that one should apply common sense when dealing with religion how so ever you may define it. Anything by whatever name called Secularism, God, Son of God, Door Keeper to God, Jesus, Allah, Parmatama, Bhagwan is not provable. So there is no point in discussing on these lines and anyone who argues on these lines is beatable… You only have to say, prove it, like I say prove secularism is the only way. People who want to propagate these things should propagate it at a level where a person is capable of understanding the finer nuances of unprovable things. Good governance, needs to dispense quality education, health care system, a better lifestyle, right to better leaders, good strong patriot warriors and not jehadis at the rate secularism produces. Good things do not come from mercy of Secularism, God, Son of God, Door Keeper to God, Jesus, Allah, Sri Ram, Sri Krishna, Bhagwan theory propagators. As long as propagators of such theories are kept confined to religious places, with strictures in place on their unprovable speeches, and self proclaimed right to act and do deeds not inspired by law but by God, Son of God, Doorkeeper of God/ Jesus/ Allah/ Parmatma/ Bhagwan, it is good for society. So it is a must that missionary keeps himself to Church, Mullah to Masjid, Brahmin to Temple and don’t speak unprovable things in public and speaks what he submits to government in writing before he/ she opens his mouth inside Church/ Masjid/ Temple.

Dear Salil,

The complex two worded expression that you often use, like Patriot, to summarize my post don’t apply back but I shall stick to simplicity and to the point. As usual, your posts are nothing beyond “Only secularism” which makes you no better than any baptisto who says only Jesus loves, everything else is wrong or Mulla who says Only Mohammedanism, everything else is wrong or a Congressi Only GANERU, everything else is wrong.

All these have one common result. Riots + genocide involving natives of nation who usually were led to believe, if they walk on this path, they will get best result simply because of a faith, whatever be the action or reaction. I urge you to come out of your blind fold secularism and accept it for it’s failures, weaknesses, which are macabre and of gigantic proportions.

First to the usuals, our quest for righteousness, hoping you get the right message that once a while, it is not wrong to think on basis of history and realties of India than on history and geography and realties of France, United States etc and then to the rituals.

===============================================================
I thought the communist theory was that ‘religion is the opiate of masses’. Unlike communism, secularism does not denounce religion but is indifferent to it. It wants religions to coexist, not abolished.

Right, apologies for mixing it with secularism. Communism changed with change in geography and individuals who led it and I got confused by Communism of Communists of India who also claim are secularists. My apologies again.

Barring the Islamic states, almost the entire world has secular states, i.e. no interference of religion in state. Of course, your definition of secularism is different, so please yourself with your beliefs.

No state is aloof from religion. How and in whose favor it interferes, is a different matter and a point of view. For example, Congress has a secularism, Communists of India have a secularism, FTI has a secularism, SP, BSP, LJP, JD etc have a secularism and so on. FTI believes it is secular, you believe you are a secular, Congress believes it is secular, Jinnah believed he was a secular, GANERU, so aptly nick named, Bapu and Chachu, intoxicated with becoming epitome of secularism + bravery, GANERU clan the direct descendants of gods of secularism.
Does varying degree of secularism really matter? When all it can give is Muslim League or SIMI, IM, JeM, LeT, Mizo National Front, Babbar Khalsa or messengers of Rome and Mecca, resulting in Pakistan, and probable new Pakistans from North East or North?

If Gandhi + Nehru are epitome of secular perfection, why were they unable to address problems of Muslims, and forget Muslims, one single, learned, wise and secular Jinnah? What is the guarantee that leaders less effective than Gandhi and Nehru or claiming to be better than Gandhi and Nehru of present times will be able to deal with Jinnahs + Britishers of present time?

All India Christian Council heavily influences All India Congress Committee, headed by Sonia Gandhi… Secularism is refined version of Christianity. Can anyone prove that the act of AICC is not secular? Can anyone prove that Sonia Gandhi is not secular and pro agent of Rome?

Is it a must that given the history, culture, language, identity of our nation is vastly different from west, we need to follow foot steps of US/ France/ Great Britain? What do we really want… Good governance and progress or another US/ France/ Great Britain? If the need is good governance and progress, secularist and secularism needs to be accepted with it’s flaws and rectified appropriately and if second is the answer, democratic colonialism is the best solution. One just needs to be globally democratic and allow Queen of England to fight elections or George Bush/ Clinton to fight elections in India. All political parties may get wiped out by the excitement generated by Queen/ George Bush/ Clinton propaganda.

Can anyone prove that US/ France/ UK are not influenced by blind faith of the nation from where they get inspiration to draft secularism? When US proclaimed secularism, it was post genocide of natives. In effect, there is zero role of secularism in what US is and where it is. http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=52254 The US Government apologized to Natives of America as far as in 2009. Is this called as secularism?

If one asks who did it, Church of US says, Christians didn’t do it, westerners did it. Can it be proven either ways? If it can be then why doesn’t US punish Church or otherwise why Church indulged in washing sins of westerners? US Slogan is “In God We Trust”… How is a nation secular when governance trusts in God and the Church says God = Jesus = Son of God = Doorkeeper of God? Will it become secular if it removes the slogan “In God We Trust”? Was US secular when it wiped out the natives of America? Did it become secular by proclaiming faith in a piece of document? And even if it did become secular, why did it give rise to Talibans and inspired Al Quaedas? Why did it still carried the same acts of genocide where ever it went on some pretext or other?

France still doesn’t know whether to ban burqa or not but knows to ban turbans of Sikhs, Kirpans etc. Whether secular government of France is interfering in religion or religion is interfering in governance is again debatable, but the output is, secularism is for ease of toms dicks and harrys and is a refined version of Christianity because it fails to accord required respect to be given to religions other than Christianity as per those religions.
Letter to Pope John Paul II
We the Indians of the Andes and America, have decided to take the opportunity of this visit by John Paul II to return him his Bible. In five centuries it has bought us neither love, nor peace, nor justice. Please take your Bible, and return it to our oppressors. It is they rather than we who have need of its moral precepts. Since the arrival of Christopher Columbus, a culture, a language, a religion of Europe, have been imposed on America by force.
Here are the words of same shameless Pope John Paul II with regards to India
A great harvest of faith would be witnessed on the subcontinent in the third Christian millennium.

In other words, the natives of Christian nations are still evolving philosophically (Racial attacks in Australia, depiction of faith of non natives on undergarments, ham burgers, banning of turbans and kirpans of Sikhs) as they accord due recognition to their current and past deeds. So they need a secularism or a human rights commission or a minority rights commission because the nations still have the tendency to abuse such things, under influence of Christianity, to do anything after inspiration from unknown/ non provable things and no court cannot punish such source of inspirations.

“In 2003, 21st CENTURY, Sinafasi Makelo, a representative of Mbuti pygmies, told the UN’s Indigenous People’s Forum that during the Congo Civil War, his people were hunted down and eaten as though they were game animals. In neighboring North Kivu province there has been cannibalism by a group known as Les Effaceurs (“the erasers”) who wanted to clear the land of people to open it up for mineral exploitation. Both sides of the war regarded them as “subhuman” and some say their flesh can confer magical powers. Makelo asked the UN Security Council (dominated by Christian Secularists, our Salil’s pride) to recognise cannibalism as a crime against humanity and an act of genocide. According to Minority Rights Group International there is extensive evidence of mass killings, cannibalism and rape of Pygmies and have urged the International Criminal Court to investigate a campaign of extermination against pygmies. Although they have been targeted by virtually all the armed groups, much of the violence against Pygmies is attributed to the rebel group, the Movement for the Liberation of Congo, which is part of the transitional government and still controls much of the north, and their allies.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmies

CONGO is a Christian dominated country. One has still to see a Church like organization coming out voluntarily to stop followers of Church from letting pygmies be happy the way they are. One just needs to measure the speed of action of Secular Christianity dominated United Nations in cases of riots/ genocide against Christians and non Christians else where. Like Killing of Christians in Pakistan vs Killing of Hindus in Pakistan.

What will protect country against excesses propagated by religion which vary from person to person? Who can determine what is the excess of a religion? Some of my interpretations from the posts are that Mr X finds everything till the baptisto actually kills non baptisto as fine and if non baptisto kills the baptisto before baptisto kills him as damning and threat to peaceful existence and right of baptisto to his speak his thoughts. Which basically is tolerance level of Mr X or is this is the tolerance level Mr X wants for baptistos? Another X may be able to take on any such chirper but is tolerance level of X applicable for all in uniformity? Another X has his own views… which I interpret as reading, writing, depicting true heroic events are threat to peaceful existence of sleeping terror moles in country. One more X has views on which which I interpret X is the most probable advocator of cow massacre… Maybe X will advocate opening of slaughter houses infront of Jain Mandir for better co existence of religion in society? Will a piece of crap which every politician carries on his tongue in nation define what is excess and what is not? And what guarantees that FTI will not breed a Jinnah and only Gandhis, piece of paper? And where is accountability of state when religious tolerance levels are not defined? Saying massacre of Sikhs by seculars is unsecular is easy but where is accountability?
Summary: Every religion interferes in state and state has to respond back. Since holiness of religion and measurement of tolerance level are vague things, best action is to identify, profile and nip in bud the activities of propagators of religion and limit religious activities to places like Temple, Church & Masjid. Action of religious torch bearers need to be subjected to strict strictures from governance so source of inspiration of actions is law when inspiration from unknown/ unprovable things makes them excited and fills them with uncontrollable desire to act. And since religion makes job of governance difficult, they should be taxed appropriately for effort required to make them act responsibly and their means of finances and end use of finances should be transparent and traceable.

Russia is very much secular. Russian Orthodox Christianity (and not your pet peeve, the Roman Catholic Church) is the majority religion, but it is not the official religion. Because there is no official religion, it is secular. Oh wait, your definition of secularism is different, so suit yourself.

Russia guarantees that every citizen has equal rights. It doesn’t even talk about religion. And Russia holds doubtable human rights record… A Christian secularist version of human rights… which exempts US from all acts of genocides?

We chose secularism _after_ 1947. Our Constitution came in force in 1950… Agreed, the British were as responsible as Jinnah. If one struck the matchstick, the other brought the fuel… I dont blame RSS/VHP for the misery… as those who believe that Hindus are superior to other religions because they are the majority… We all know Nehru like any other leader made mistakes… Gandhi and Congress did not handle the partition well, but are they to be blamed more than Jinnah who caused the idea to partition to come up or the British who sowed the seeds of division… But if the masses rioted, all he could do was to fast and try to control them.

Secularism answered above… Coming down to superiority feeling… Where in world is this absent? Superiority disappears only when you accept superiority of a person and his leadership. For example, criticism of Nehru and Gandhi of Shaheed Udam Singh is superiority. Your criticism of my post is superiority and vice versa.
If common thought is applied, or one studies history in detail, there is nothing to prove that GANERU were unaware of the progress of outcome of their actions. I do not subscribe to your view that nationality which sometimes calls for display of ability to die fighting for country can be replaced by spinning, fasting and walking.

My take: If someone thinks/ advocates dispensing good governance & power comes by walking, spinning and fasting then I, as an individual would stay away from him because it can be predicted how will that person react for justified demands of Army + police for meeting demands of internal and external. If someone advocates for better governance by walking, spinning and fasting from a government to provide good governance, I would join that person as a common man because common man needs good governance and not violence, disruptions.

With that I would leave your comment on Gandhi fasting or spinning or walking for quelling riots, securing Rs ?? Crore for Pakistan at the wrong time as unanswered, but would urge you to apply some thoughts on what to call a politician who is not aware of the outcome of his politics and all this politician can offer is fast to dispense power and good governance when in past the politician is known to have appealed to Britishers to make MK Gandhi the Recruit in Chief because he could extort millions of Sanatan Dharmis to lay down their lives for Britihsers and had every desire to participate in genocide of natives of Africa, for which he got himself appointed as Sargent Major and earned a medallion. I think possibility of becoming Army in Chief in 1947 was also there and a concentrated+ joint effort towards it was more justified than singular effort of participating in war against Africans fighting for their native land and freedom from slavery, bigotry.
Here is ode from JFK for Operation Vijay for those who govern on MKG principles
“You spend the last fifteen years preaching morality to us, and then you go ahead and act the way any normal country would behave…. People are saying, the preacher has been caught coming out of the brothel.”
These days, seculars don’t even fast after incidents like Sikh genocide… Maybe they raise a toast… And a secular Man Mohan Singh blames RSS/ BJP for riots/ genocide of Sikhs and not descendants of GANERU clan.
Now from Bapu who was a great responsible father of an adapted son to Chachu who made a mockery of dignity of politics, nationalism and relationships to create new lineage of gods…A Gandhian who kept soldiers in bad state and shape, like without proper clothes and shoes, evident since the days of Portuguese ouster from Goa, got intoxicated with the victory of army as feat of his personal bravery, valor and military geniuses? (Contrast this with Bapu and Chachu lambasting Shaheed Udham Singh…Intoxicated with Bravey…Our political career shouldn’t be jeopardized) and ignored requisition from the defense forces of modern weaponry, ammunition, clothes, shoes to better protect and serve nation but he found time, energy, government machinery to support forcible occupation of Tibet by China, surrendered India’s right to permanent seat in United Nations Security Council in favor of China, Created enmity with China, implemented non alignment theory with muslim nations like Egypt, so nation was alone in world in 1962, but still intoxicated with his feat over Portugals in Goa, whipped up a war frenzy in media and nation, and forced army to fight under a hand picked and self appointed caste brother from Kashmir, zero combat experience general BK Kaul (Maybe his uncanny military genius said that he will crush Chinese).

Brij Mohan Kaul was the controversial general who resigned in the aftermath of the Indian military debacle against the Chinese in the 1962 Sino-Indian War. He was a distant kinsman of Jawaharlal Nehru. He was a Kings Commissioned Indian Officer from Sandhurst (1933), who was an infantry officer with the East Surrey Regiment, who later switched to the Army Supply Corps during the end of Second World War, because ASC was a higher paying job and he needed the money for treatment of his ailing stepmother. He served as the divisional commander of 4th Infantry Division, Chief of General Staff and finally as the commander of IV Corps during the 1962 War. He was also the first ever recipient of the Param Vishisht Seva Medal instituted by the Government in 1960. His citation reads : “For successfully completing the project ‘Amar’ which entailed the construction of 1,450 quarters for troops in Ambala. This was the first project of its kind and was completed through hot weather and the monsoons in the face of numerous problems. Lt.-Gen. Kaul overcame these difficulties by dint of hard work and initiative of the highest order. He displayed organising ability, drive, and resourcefulness. It was by his determination, leadership and personal example that the task was completed by due date.”

The general goes down with flu in crucial times and still decides combat strategy, after continuously seeking his genius master’s advise on how to fight a battle till military genius master gives up and says that he doesn’t know how to fight so Kaul may decide as per his wish. Do you know how many soldiers died fighting weather and how many died fighting Chinese? Do you know that the army that was fighting Chinese army without proper arms, clothes, shoes had experience of fighting in most of the world and was respected as one of the best Armies of the world (At least by Chinese PLA)? Do you know that Indian army didn’t have even a single Chinese Soldier as Prisoner of war? Do you know who saved India when China would have swept not only north east but entire length and breadth of country and Pakistan was also eager to open up borders? And do you know what does this politician indulges in in order to make a career for his good for nothing daughter as he realizes he is sleeping on bed of slow death after the fiasco and criticisms? First is upholding Shaheed Udham Singh as the man who got us freedom, an about turn. The remaining are more sickening

Actually, Jinnah was groomed in the Congress of Gokhale and Tilak and left for England when Gandhi & Nehru became the leaders.

Sincere apologies for the mistake… I hope you get the message that secularism has faults

Why my attack is usually acidic is that people have zero respect for history and tradition of nation which, however flawed, howsoever loathable, howsoever inferior to Christianity and Islam, has some things which, if not loathable, can be looked into. Human beings like Chandragupt, Vikramadity, Raja Bhojadev, Chhatrapati Shivajee, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Rana Pratap, Rana Sanga, never advocated genocide of common man nor led them to walk on path which would knowingly or unknowingly result in genocide. They were good leaders, with great common sense and capacity to recognize, respect and exploit talent for good governance. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was illiterate, had one eye, and his messenger was a Moslem who when asked by Britisher to describe ugliness and blindness of his King said that the brilliance of one eye of Maharaja Ranjit Singh is brighter than thousand suns (There is a poetic touch inspired by JP to the story, but I shall let it stay).

I am making sincere effort to add humor (Like Dirt Digger, who I guess has a great quiver full of short, snappy, simple stories filled with wit, fun and humor) to my posts which, I guess, turn out to be more acidic as I, argue against new faith Secularism which is new epitome of perfection.

Now, some good news… I came to know on newsX that there is a temple in South India where Gandhi is worshipped as God with complete holy rituals like cleansing of his idol with milk etc, pooja, aarti and finally distribution of prasad by the pujari. This reminded me, sometimes back, doordarshan news, the best news channel in contents and variety followed by newsX, aired about a village in Orissa where Sanatan Dharmis worship Gandhi and have temple constructed for the man who fought for their entitlement to good governance. I hope all Indians across the country construct temples of Gandhi and start worshipping him with entire rituals. I wonder, what will baptistos of world resort to, to propagate the only truth among people who worship Gandhi as God and these people will refer to Gandhi’s view on baptistos.

And as we waste so much of effort and dear Shantanu who bears bottomless pit of acids like me, I hope we apply some common sense towards dispensing good governance and learn that Gandhi principles were relevant for limited fields.

*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

@ Rohit: Pl. try and keep your comments short and to the point. Also the usual convention is to have the quote in italics and your own response in regular font. I have made these changes to your response above.