“The Rigveda and the Avesta: The Final Evidence” – A blurb
Stumbled on this somewhat longer than usual blurb (below) about a new book by Shrikant G. Talageri that explores unresolved issues around Vedic chronology and the homeland of “Indo-Aryans”
Important Note: I have not yet read the book. This is not a sales pitch for Sh Talageri’s work but more a note to myself for my personal reference.
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“The Rigveda and the Avesta: The Final Evidence“
The single most significant unresolved problem in the study of World History today is the problem of the geographical location of the Original Homeland of the Indo-European family of languages. This is because this is the most important family of languages in the world in terms of the number of primary as well as secondary speakers, as also in terms of geographical spread, ethnic diversity, and political and economic clout.
This family of languages has twelve branches (two of them, Anatolian and Tocharian, now long extinct): the extant branches, from west to east, are Germanic, Celtic, Italic, Baltic, Slavic, Albanian, Greek, Armenian, Iranian, and Indo-Aryan.
The question of where exactly the original homeland of this diverse family was located has been a hotly debated issue among linguists, historians and archaeologists, and, especially in India, where the issue has acquired deep political overtones, also among politically inclined writers of every brand.
.
In his two earlier books, *The Aryan Invasion Theory: A Reappraisal* (1993) and *The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis* (2000), the author of this book put forward the hypothesis, backed by detailed arguments, data and evidence, that this Original Homeland lay in the northern parts of India, and that the other branches of Indo-European languages spread out from India to their respective historical habitats.
In this book, he presents the final case with conclusive new evidence based on an unassailable interpretation of old but hitherto universally misinterpreted data. The result is a hypothesis
which critics will find it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to counter and disprove.
*The two highlights of this book are as follows.*
*One,* the establishment of the Relative Chronology of the Rigveda vis-Ã -vis the Avesta and the Mitanni inscriptions, and of the Geography of the Rigveda; followed by a detailed analysis of the Internal Chronology of the (different parts of) the Rigveda; and, finally, the first steps in the establishment of the Absolute Chronology of the Rigveda in terms of the
actual point of time BCE when the hymns of the text were composed.
And,* two,* *the presentation of a linguistic hypothesis which shows finally and conclusively that the Indian Homeland hypothesis is the only hypothesis which explains all the linguistic problems which arise in the course of the quest for the Original Homeland.*
All this has important and far-reaching implications, not only in resolving the academic question of the location of the Indo-European Homeland, and not only in resolving the question of the linguistic identity of the Harappan or Indus or Sindhu-Sarasvati Civilization, but also in taking the beginnings of the history of Indian Civilization as we know it (as distinct from its
prehistory, which is what the Harappan civilization amounts to in current historical discourse) back by several thousands of years:
While the beginnings of the history of the Egyptian and the Mesopotamian Civilizations are known to lie at least as far back as the fourth millennium BCE on the basis of detailed decipherable and deciphered records (inscriptions, scrolls, etc.), the beginnings of Indian Civilization as we know it could not really be traced far earlier than the mid-second
millennium BCE, and even this only on the basis of back-tracking the stages of Vedic history (whether logically or illogically done) from the oldest known decipherable and deciphered records found in India: the Ashokan inscriptions of the latter half of the first millennium BCE.*
The earlier records, of the Harappan Civilization, are not yet convincingly deciphered; and the interpretation of the signs on the Harappan seals (from the question of the identity of the language represented in those seals down to the question of whether or not, indeed, any language is represented at all in them) has been a matter of motivated debate: the academic scholars presume the language of the Harappan Civilization to be non-Indo-European, since the current academically accepted theory requires that the Indo-European “Indo-Aryans” could not have “entered” India far earlier than the latter half of the second millennium BCE.
However, ironically, decipherable and deciphered records are found in West Asia (Iraq, Syria, and even Palestine and Egypt), dating to the mid-second millennium BCE, which record the presence of “Indo-Aryan” speakers in West Asia at around the same time as they are supposed to have been entering into India.
The presence of these “Indo-Aryans”, the Mittani “Indo-Aryans”, in West Asia has hitherto been interpreted as evidence of an “Indo-Aryan” group which broke away from the main body of “Indo-Aryans” somewhere in Central Asia, and moved westwards to appear in West Asia at around the same time as the main body of “Indo-Aryans” appeared in northwestern India.
But the analysis of the Rigvedic, Avestan and Mittani data in this book completely overturns this theory: it presents an unassailable case showing that the culture common to the Rigveda, the Avesta and the Mitanni records is a culture which developed in northern India in the Late Rigvedic Period, and that this Late Rigvedic Period followed earlier periods (the Middle Rigvedic Period, and, before that, the Early Rigvedic Period) which have different cultures and which preceded this common culture; and that not only the “Indo-Aryans”, but also the proto-Iranians, in those earlier pre-Avestan and pre-Mittani periods, were inhabitants of areas deeper within northern India and had only started expanding westwards towards the end of the Early Rigvedic Period.
All this places the “Indo-Aryans” and the proto-Iranians deep within northern India at least as early as the early third or late fourth millennia BCE, with no connections further west. This lends legitimacy to an interpretation of Indian history with indigenous origins going back deep into the fourth millennium BCE, and brings Indian traditional Indian historical traditions (excluding, of course, all the mythical elements, exaggerations and interpolations which have seeped into them) as well as the Harappan civilization within the ambits of the academic study of the history of Indian Civilization as we know it.
*To order:*
*– New Delhi, **Aditya Prak., 2008, xxxviii,379p., bibl., ind., 23cm.
ISBN 9788177420852 Rs.750 (hb), Rs. 350(pb)*
Add postage Rs. 25.00
Payment should be made through Demand drafts or cheques payable at Delhi in favor of *Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi.*
*Or you could deposit at any Bank of India branch for “Aditya Prakashan”, BOI, Ansari Road Branch, New Delhi, c. a/c C603220100012624*
*Aditya Prakashan*
*2/18 Ansari Road,*
*New Delhi-110002*
*** End ***
Related Posts:
Breaking the code: the Sarasvati-Sindhu Script
The Aryan-Dravidian Controversy
Konrad Elst review about this book in his blog spot.
http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2009/01/great-book-about-great-book.html
Facts about STalageri
http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/sh/shrikant_g._talageri.htm
Shrikant G. Talageri, born in 1958, was educated in Bombay where he lives and works. He has been interested in Wildlife, Comparative Music, Religion and Philosophy, History and Culture and Linguistics. He has made a special study of the Konkani language, his mother tongue. He has devoted several years, and much to study, to the theory of an Aryan invasion of India, and interpreted the Vedas with the help of the internal chronology of Rig vedic Rishes within Rig Veda with the help of genealogical records Anukramanis.
Talageri-Witzel controversy
Talageri’s first book (1993) was strongly criticized by the linguist Michael Witzel in 1995, as being “devoid of scholarly value”.The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity edited by George Erdosy, Walter de Gruyter, Berlin-New York, 1995. On the basis of Witzel’s mis-citation of Talageri’s book’s title as one (and the consistent misspelling of Talageri’s name) in his bibliography and elsewhere, Talageri asserts that Witzel criticized the book in a 1995 paper without having read or seen it.(see Talageri 2000: chapter 9). Talageri noted that „this strong condemnation of a book, unread and unseen by them, is both unacademic and unethical.” Talageri 2000. Talageri writes that Witzel and Erdosy constantly cite the work incorrectly, using the wrong book data that was earlier used in a review of the Times of India. (see Elst 1999, Talageri 2000)
Talageri wrote a critique of a number of scholars such as Griffith, Pargiter, Tilak and Aurobindo in his book on the Rig Veda(2000: Chapter 8). In the same book (Chapter 9), he wrote a critique of Michael Witzel’s (1995) interpretation of the Rig Veda. This chapter, in the words of Talageri(2001: Chapter 2) “shows Professor Witzel inventing evidence, suppressing inconvenient data, following an inconsistent methodology, retrofitting data into pre-conceived notions, contradicting himself again and again, and using misleading language”. Witzel didn’t write a rebuttal of this chapter in his review on Talageri’s book, but only stated that it is “a long and confused ‘analysis’ in Talageri’s book of my same 1995 paper” and that the “angry assault on my 1995 paper…. can thankfully be passed over here”. Talageri later considered his criticism of other scholars as unnecessary, and he writes that other scholars like N.S. Rajaram “reprimanded” him for chapters 8 and 9, which Rajaram “felt were superfluous and unnecessary and detracted from the value of my [Talageri’s] work.” (Talageri 2001: Chapter 1)
After the publication of his book on the Rig Veda (2000), Talageri was offered on 17 June 2000 the possibility to do advanced study or a Ph.D. with Witzel in Harvard, “provided he [Talageri] is open-minded and flexible in his views, and does not show himself to be intransigent or predisposed to certain ideas”.(Talageri 2001: Chapter 1) Talageri declined this offer “for purely personal reasons as much as in view of the blatantly fishy proviso”.(Talageri 2001: Chapter 1)
Works
* The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis, 2000 ISBN 81-7742-010-0 [1]
* The Aryan Invasion Theory: A Reappraisal, 1993, Aditya Prakashan
* Michael Witzel – An examination of his review of my book. 2001
This is interesting ( see below)
After the publication of his book on the Rig Veda (2000), Talageri was offered on 17 June 2000 the possibility to do advanced study or a Ph.D. with Witzel in Harvard, “provided he [Talageri] is open-minded and flexible in his views, and does not show himself to be intransigent or predisposed to certain ideas”.(Talageri 2001: Chapter 1) Talageri declined this offer “for purely personal reasons as much as in view of the blatantly fishy proviso”.(Talageri 2001: Chapter 1)
Works
Shrikant Talageri must be appreciated for this and he did not stop at this . He came up with another book which you have given a posting. A commoner taking on an Ivy league Professor. Truly great.
Now Witzel is in India and he recently gave a seminar where he bypassed the AIT and then went on to lo behold say that Rig Veda is not from India. Has he read Talageri’s book or is he shaken so much by this recent book to keep his brain also shaking while delivering the lecture. I feel that this Westerners are not able to digest how such a profound and insightful language describing Gods and Goddesses came to be in India. They just want to do some research and do time pass. Here is Radha Rajan;s account of Witzel’s lecture in Chennai.
“Anyway, Witzel, not surprisingly, made two unsurprising pronouncements – the Aryan Invasion theme was political and he therefore would not like to speak about it, and through a circuitous route, that the Rg Veda was not Hindu”
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=693
You can expect more and more hypocrisy from the West. We need more and more Talageri’s
What lines of tribute right from Vashista to Talageri. One broad sweep Elst pays compliment to Talageri. Truly a David vs Goliath. Talageri vs Witzel.
Elst in hos words see above #1
“All the Orientalists, including Michael Witzel and the present writer, owe a debt of gratitude to Angiras, Vishvamitra, Vasistha and the other Vedic seers, and to their contemporary scion, Shrikant Talageri”.
One thing the post IT world has shown is that college drop outs Bill Gates, Steve Jobs shook the world with their quests. Talageri has done a Jobs of a Gates to Witzel.
Is it the end of scholarship in Universities in the post IT
world?
More later with this. Yes , this phenomenon is on the rise. Shantanu , what is your view?
Interesting. Sounds like a must read. Couple it with Bala Gangadhar Tilak’s Vedas of the Arctic and I think it will be a treat. Heres the link to “Vedas of the Arctic”
http://www.vaidilute.com/books/tilak/tilak-contents.html
However, I disagree with the observations on the book mentioned in the website. I am yet to complete reading this book. If any links on the analysis of this book are known, that would really help.
@ Avinash: Thanks…I think there is some merit to your comment that this may signal the end of monopolisation of research (and therefore thought-leadership) by professors and researchers in Universities. This cannot be a bad thing (in my view). At the very least, it will force some fresh thinking.
I have not read the book yet so will reserve my comemnts on content for now.
***
@ Vivek: Thanks for the link to Vedas of the Arctic
Will try for Witzels letter
http://voiceofdharma.com/indology/VSPanini.html
Needless to say, he seems to suffer from the presumption that India is still under British colonial rule and therefore he, as a fellow European, can afford to be disrespectful to Indian scholars equal in academic rank to him. He seems to be unaware of the fact that colonialism has evaporated from the surface of the earth long ago.
�������� I really wonder if Witzel would have dismissed Panini in such a cavalier way, were the grammarian a fellow German!
My post in 6 is a letter of Prof Swaminathan of Sanskrit college in Kerala
Directed to #2
This all due to the information , I gather from my Indian friends that there is no systematic study of Sanskrit and Indian religions in Indian Universities. It is no surprise that , you have thrown up an intellectual Cromwell, who has ruffled the bastions of fiefdom.
I will surely read this book.
hats off to respected genius Talageri, I have been swayed by his scholarly wrightings.Witzel to me seems to be suffering from some prenotioned biase and comittments against Hindus and Hinduism and Hindusthan. His thesis and search is not for a greater truth but with a spl purpose to weaken and confuse it. But bravo Talageri exposes him bit by bit.I am proud of Talageri for throwing light on some dark portions of these western vested intrests. I PROUDLY AND RIGHTLY HOLD NOW MORE STRONGLY THAT-; HINDUSTHAN IS AND WAS AND WILL BE THE SPRITUAL GURU OF THE WORLD. THIS MAY IRRITATE SOME SCHOLARS LIKE WITZEL BUT FACT IS THAT THEY WILL REALIZE AND AGREE ONE DAY TO THIS, HAPPILY.
ASHWANI.M. Sc(Phy)student.
it is a great tregedy that no systemetically deep study is there in any university on SANSKRIT,VEDIK HISTORY,VEDES AND INFLUENCES OF HINDUTVA OR HINDUISM around the world.Earlier DAV Sansthans and colleges were teaching vedas and sanskrits but now they have themselves killed the sanskrit and sanskrity of india. The leaders of DAV,s are simply bent upon earning money . That missionary zeal for sanskrit and vedik sanskrity is missing from DAV & Aryasmaj. Aryasmaj has come in a very weak position now a days.One time they were all for sanskrits and biggest exposer of islam and chritianity.
9-Ashwani.Dear.
Most patriotic, turned into traitor by pan-islamic movement,communal,cutter of his own motherland,and a great poet of Akhand Bharat,Alama Iqubal, wrote his most powerfull and famous lines about a great truth regarding Hindusthan as below:
KOYEE BAAT HAI JO MIT TEE NAHI HASTI HAMAARI
SADIYON DUSHMAN RAHA DAURE-JAMANA HAMARAA
(There is something in us that our personality doesn’t get weakened, even though, from centuries over,this world remained enemy to us.)
So worry not Ashwani of these Witzels and Macauleys of todays.
Post #10, There is a lot studies done on religion in American Universities and even in Europe ( though not many), but it is all done with the western mind , who have either been trained in India for a few yrs. But they have not been immersed from childhood like a few Indians , who are totally immersed in Sanskrit. This is a big difference. Getting immersed in a language right from age 6 and then living with the language , conversing , and taking it as a job chore. The other aspect is when westerners come for 4 to 5 yrs to study and then return back to be an academic and over the years, they have their own way of interpreting , which is mainly for funding and survival as an academic. I abhor this as it does not give the depth and insight it has to give. Sanskrit is very very case senstive language , in terms of meaning and interpretation as its grammar is like a computer code. You miss a colon in a computer code , the program would not work. Sanskrit is like this. You have to live the language right through your life, only then , you will get it right. This is the reason , I was dissappointed that Sanskrit studies are not encouraged in Indian Universities , where you have an eat and sleep environment for this language in some places.
For example, the word Dharma itself is misinterpreted all over the place. In many places , the translation will be religion, that is to compare with organised relgions. Now go back to the Bhagvad Gita, which I am not well versed with. But I heard one stanza in which the word Dharma is used. The line is like this ” Whenever Dharma is under decline, I will come …………. Please complete the line. Now here many in the West have equated this word Dharma to religion. I have discussed this with many in Ramana Ashram and the ” immersed” have told me that it is ” righteouness” because , there was no organised religion as such during the time of Mahabharat. It was good vs bad. The reason why in West, they equate Dharma with religion, becuase for 2, 000 yrs , they have all lived , slept and eaten with organised relgions. It is just that these so called scholars are layering with their own interpretation of Dharma. This they have done to many Sanskrit words. This will continue to happen , till , you get the right interpretation from India.
It is sad that Indian Universties do not have these studies. There is one Prof in the West , who has interpreted this in a fair way, but still not as perfect as I get it in India. I have not met him , but from what I gather in my visits to India and reading some his works, I feel this Prof comes close to what an ” immersed ” soul would interpret.
His web site is here. He is a quiet achiever and has better balanced view.
http://www.hawaii.edu/religion/lamb.html –
12- “I was dissappointed that Sanskrit studies are not encouraged in Indian Universities ”
Essays on academic Sanskrit-phobia by Prof Kapil Kapoor-
http://www.indianscience.org/essays/st_es_kapoo_eleven.shtml
and Rajiv Malhotra-
http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42:geopolitics-and-sanskrit-phobia&catid=20:american-education-reform&Itemid=26
Since the ’eminent historians and academicians’ in India are in the habit of copying the westerner, Indian textbooks reflect more or less what the Americans teach in their classrooms.
A dialog between Rajiv Malhotra and Dave Freedholm regarding “Hinduism in American Classrooms”- http://rajivmalhotra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26:hinduism-in-american-classrooms&catid=20:american-education-reform&Itemid=26
I forgot to mention about one Prof Vilayanur Ramachandran , who has given excellent talks about Neurological basis of Hindu (Indian) Art. Please go thru it in U tube. Just type in utube his name, you will get hour long lectures some which are amazing stuff. The thing is that all have looked at things just as they see. In fact many have made fun of these art earlier But this man has analysed it in an excellent fashion. It is pathbreaking work.
Post 13 thanks for the links. But this is too little for scholarship.
Hi Nusrat. You are revolutionary,nationalist muslim like Khankhama of lord Ram and Nazir of Lord Krishna and Darashikoh of upnishads. Iqubal’s other famous lines are
SARE JAHAN SE ACHHA YEH HINDUSTHAN HAMARA
HAM HAIN BULBULEN ISKI YEH GULSTAN HAMARA
But in his later days he was sucked by Islam,on his return journey from Germony where he was brain washed by Islamists. Then and thereafter he started planning for Pakistan and writting for muslims and Jihadis. His Grandfather was hindu pandit and converted to islam under greed and fear,both.
JM Smith
I saw the videos of Prof V Ramachandran. It is true scholarship and with scientific evidence. His presentation is a joy to listen and the way he has held Indianness high is what one must appreciate. Picassa has been justaxposed with Indian chola bronzes and he proves that these statues are an imaginative hyperbole. He has explained many things very well, without compromising or attacking Hinduness. The way he says that the Englishmen said yuk seeing the Chola Bronze itself is a testimony to his Indianness and it shows this Professor will not kow tow like the Macaulayian academics of JNU and even Amartya Sen.
This is the beauty of science , it proves conclusively much better than anything. Here it is the link.
Sorry it should be Piccasso not Piccassa
gajanan,
Absolutely brilliant.
The more number of times you hear that discourse and see the video, the more is the beauty of the sculptures that is revealed. Dr Ramachandran’s explanation of Nataraja sculpture is almost as good as if coming from an enlightened master.
The people who made these sculptures were no ordinary people. They were spiritually enlightened, besides being talented.
Prof Ramachandran is one of the leading neurologists in the world. He always comes up with something new, very original and from very simple tools , which makes it endearing to all.
For those interested in the Sanatan Dharma point of view
There is a write up here. Yes , it was Sage Patanjali of the Yoga Sutras who composed the Nataraja Stotra. I feel that it was Sage Patanjali’s vision and description made this great sculpture happen.
http://www.iyengaryoga.in/life_patanjali.htm –
Another story tells that once upon a time Nandi, Shiva’s carrier, would not allow Patanjali Muni to have Darshan of Lord Shiva (Nataraja of Chidambaram). In order to reach Lord Shiva, Patanjali, with his mastery over grammatical forms, spontaneously composed a prayer in praise of the Lord without using any extended (Dirgha) syllable, (without Charana and Shringa) i.e. leg and horn, to tease Nandi.
Shiva was quickly pleased, gave Darshan to the devotee and danced to the lilting tune of this song.
I am so thankful for the likes of Talageri who do such a service by bringing such facts to light. And yes it is such a shame or rather a tragedy of big proportions… the way we are losing our hold on Sankrit and Sanskriti (as someone said here). It has become fashionable to take on the role of a detractor of the Indian scriptures and way of life as it was without truly understanding it. Though Iqubal’s lines give me hope.
Here it is all in wiki about Prof VS Ramachandran
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran –
*** COMMENT EDITED ***
15-Respected Yukti. i am nationalist—yes.i am revolutionary—yes.i am muslim—-no,not at all. I waaas muslim but we a combined family of twelve menmbers left Islam in a very dramatic and tragic way. Our hindu children are still facing social and academic hurdels. It was all triggered by few chapters of a wonderfull book by Maharishi Dayananda.The books name is Satyarth Prakash .It is banned in all muslim countries. Later on it was strengthened by Pt.Anwer Shiekh’s writtings . Yukti, hard shell of Islam has started cracking from within now.Ignorance cannot prevail on ppl now for a long time.
Some Arab intellectuals have also started writing that—-“All the texts that prophet brought including Quran are purely historical texts as such cannot be considered absolutly authentic or accurate” See(kwtanweer.com)…Further …websites (such) as islammonitor.org, faithfreedom.org, islam-watch.org, jihdwatch.org etc (have been) started by ex-muslims like me to educate muslims and non-muslims of the world…
*** NOTE BY MODERATOR ***
Nusrat: I have edited your comment slightly to take out certain phrases/words that might be construed as libel. You are welcome to share your thoughts here but pl. do be careful of what you write. Pl. also see my comments moderation policy under Legal Disclaimer.
Thanks,dear editor. But alas certain phrases/words that might be ‘construed as libel against’ non-muslims calling them apes,monkeys,infidels,kafirs fit to be looted,cheated,raped,taxed,burned and murdered,could also be taken note of, editted or removed off, from thier so called verses of holy book preached as word of God,and reflected as terrorism or jihad or al-quaida or nizame-mustafa in todays world. Intellectuals,writers,authers,publishers and media persons should also objectto such hateful writings and intolerant violent words and thoughts in thiere holy books in the name of God.
@ shantanu … is there a reason my earlier comment on this thread did not come through?
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Now retrieved. It was mistakenly classified as spam by the software.
NOTE TO ALL: PL. try and include a valid email address while leaving your comment. If you do not do so, the comment will likely be classified as “spam”.
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Thanks.
nice post .. thnx
also take a look at the link down
http://www.portraitofindia.com/mbdating1.htm
the site has a wealth of info …. but it needs further analysis … i hope we can exchange notes .. lemme know ….
@ shantanu … thnx for the retreival though i am confused as to how it went into spam inspite of the requisite details haveing been offered …… anyways .. thnx again
@ shantanu … here is an update on prof witzel caught on the wrong foot …..
Michael Witzel: rattled rat at IIC
Bhagwan Singh
22 Jul 2009
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=715
@ shantanu … just in case u missed it in my previous post … this happened this july 10 , 2009 …
here is an update on prof witzel caught on the wrong foot …..
Michael Witzel: rattled rat at IIC
Bhagwan Singh
22 Jul 2009
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=715
also @ # 25 can u pls delete my email id , i guess i misplaced it there … thnk u.
Thanks Vivek…I did read the Vijayvaani article…will carry excerpts in another post.
@ shantanu .. repeat requst from # 27 …. can u pls remove my email @ # 25 .. i left it there by mistake ..thnx again …
@ Vivek: Snowed under various things at the moment…will do so at the earliest opportunity.
email id removed.
@Nusrat Ali
From one ex-Muslim turned Hindu to another, welcome to freedom !!!
I have seen your brief comments on http://www.faithfreedom.org and http://www.islam-watch.org
It is very encouraging that 12 members of your family joined you. I would love to hear your full story. Which city in India are you from?
Hi Aasma i have read your story on faithfreedom. I would like to know more why you quit Islam. Welcome to freedom.
Asama my email is amarnow2005 @ yahoo.co.uk
while the revised and more accurate interpretation of the rig vedic verses is welcome …. also interesting is that the date has been pushed back …. although i wonder if it still matches with the chronology of the puranas and ithihasas , which are fairly accurate about their talk of manvantaras and yugas …. for eg in the ramayana sri rama praises hanuman in terms of each of the four vedas … the evidence of the rama setu places him around 1.7 million years ago …. if the vedas had been composed by then …. wht was the need to compose them again a few thousand years ago ? ..my 2 cents … we have not heard the truth or the last word on the chronology of our vaidika dharma the vedas …..
Evidence from Middle East-Burial ground of unknown epic battle-500,000-450,000 years
(Highly Radio Active Pottery clothing and other artifacts)
Thousands of archaeological sites came in to light in Middle East after 1990 satellite imaging became more sophisticated. The techniques of depth imaging of more than 100 meters brought in to light the three dimensional images of many buried cities in and around Middle East. Starting from Iran north until Syria, covering Israel until the end of Sinai Peninsula massive structures-temples, cities, courts were coming in to light since last ten years. Most of these sites and their artifacts when excavated found to highly radio active. The radio activity was not an accidental natural radio activity, nor back ground radiation bombardment from cosmos both of which can be exactly measured. This radio activity came from weapons grade uranium or plutonium. After dropping the bombs on Japan western scientists knew how to identify weapons grade plutonium versus energy grade plutonium such as released from accidental reactor failure like that of Chernobyl.
Calculating the half life took back the date of release to a staggering 450,000-390,000 years. It was also found that the following five seas/lakes (what ever be the description of these seas/lakes in those ancient days) are drinking water lakes of huge size but their salinity and other qualities changed due to release of such weapons grade uranium and plutonium. One lake/sea completely turned in to lifeless water body now called Dead Sea or Sea of Galilee. Though now a days it is called Sea of Galilee it was just a millennium back called Lake Kinnereth. (Cosmic Code, Avon Books New York, 1998. pp.25). These huge drinking water bodies of the sizes of seas which after the release of radio active weapons are 1.Red Sea 2. Sea of Galilee 3. Caspian Sea 4. Mediterranean Sea and 5. Gulf of Aden. Virgin soil sedimentation studies in these seas/lakes provided fresh water animal and fish fossils and vegetation compatible with drinking water lakes.
Also it was found that a staggering area of 55 lakh square kilometers or 5.5 million square kilometers as indicated in the table below turned in to a life less dessert wiping out complete human animal plant populations after the weapon usage which still is dessert. The massive human animal and plan fossils which lay buried under the earth over thousands of years finally became fossil fuel of unending nature Oil and feeding the world for past two hundred years. The following table shows the current countries that exist in these 5.5 million square kilometers. If should be remembered that these countries were again artificially created since 1850 by British who “administered these areas through British Mandate†(here mandate is not of the people of these areas but of British people wanted Britain to rule these areas as they are beneficial to the empire). Before British these are nomadic dessert lands of no use to none. See Summary Table-IV
Summary Table-IV. Converted Desert 450,000 to 390,000 Years before
Country Area (Square Kilometers)
Bahrain 691
Iran 1,663,189
Iraq 4, 38,317
Israel 20, 770
Jordan 91,000
Kuwait 17,818
Lebanon 10,400
Oman 386,958
Qatar 11, 427
Saudi Araia 2,149, 690
Syria 1, 85,180
United Arab Emirates 83, 600
Yemen 527,968
===========
Grand Total 55, 87,008 or 5,587,008 million Sq Kilometers
See this total area pointed by archaeologists as converted in to dessert with the after math of war effects is close to the total area required for battle deployment and actual battle area of 18 akshouhinis mentioned above. In the above case the area required was 57, 71,070 lakhs square kilometers or 5,771,070 million square kilometers.
http://www.portraitofindia.com/mbdating4.htm
THE ABOVE LINK DOES PRESENT SOME REASONABLE QUESTIONS VERY RELEVANT IN THE PRESENT CONTEXT …
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Sumerian King Lists-Kalhana’s Raja Tarangini-King Lists of Bhagavata
Much to the surprise the Sumerian Civilization that flourished before Mesopotamians clearly gave Kings Lists who ruled their kingdom from the beginning after the initial battle “between brothersâ€. These king lists date back to 450,000 years. The battle zone is called in Sumeru (according to Decipherment) Kurru also one linguist suggested that the term Ur actually called UruK. In Hebrew they read from right to let versus left to right in Sanskrit so UruK reversed gives the name KurU. Bi (U). Excellent Sumerian Astronomical Tablets like that of Inca Mayans were discovered after 1975 only where they recoded all events starting 500,000 years back. Sumerians said their knowledge came from still Far East pointing their origin to India. Now these king lists are also taken from the far east texts are infact what Kalhana was referring in Raja Tarangini which was borrowed from King and Dynasty lists of Bhagavata Purana. In the 12 Skanda of Bhagavata Sage Suka answers a question about how many dynasties rule after the death of Krishna till the end of the Age of Kali. As was the case with the India and Indians the Sumerian astronomical knowledge, or king lists were discarded as myth for past 125 years and the real interest was rekindled when they found a real tablet of astronomical data depicting again as Mayans did the tilt angle and the Sun position for almost 450,000 years. Sumerian also divided the year count in to Sixty Year cycles bringing their count remarkably closer to Indian sixty year count calculations. Their astrology and astronomical calculations are sexigesimal like that of Indians. The base is 60 for their calculation as in logarithmic calculations the base is ten. Sumerian eon calculations exactly match the calculations of similar description in Indian culture.
5. Satyameva Jayate-Truth alone Triumphs-Dwaraka appears under 72 feet to 60 feet Sedimentation
Dwaraka City that was now found under the sea of East Coast of Gujarat was found buried under 72 feet to 60 feet sedimentation. For every one feet sedimentation (Archaeo-Astronomy or Marine Archaeology) to occur one degree tilt need to be changed. For 72 feet sedimentation 72o degree tilt should have changed. For every degree tilt taking 7000 years duration the actual date of building of City of Dwaraka also goes back to 504,000 years (if 72 sedimentation is taken) or to 420,000 years (60 feet sedimentation is taken).
1920 Research in to Cyclical Periodicity of Climatic geological Changes conducted by Madeline Briskin of University of Cincinnati concluded the deep sea level changes confirm a quasi periodicity of climatic change in every 432,000 years. This theory confirms the astronomical theory of Climatic Modulations that takes in to account the changes due to 1. Earth’s Obliquity (Earth Tilt) 2. Precession (Orbital Retardation) 3. Eccentricity (elongated orbital rotation of earth) Milutin Milankovitch who outlined the theory of grand periodicity of Climatic and Sea level changes in 1920 concluded that such grand periodicity comes once in 413,000 years and now we are at the end of such Grand Periodicity by 2100 confirming the Sumerian and Mayan astronomical calculations of such end of Age. Mayans predict that the age ends with the zero time for building new era starting from 2012.
It is in this context Sir Norman Lockyer considered to be father of Archaeoastronomy in his hand written notes concluded that the Rig Vedic descriptions of position of stars sun moon matches with the Egyptians and other ancient civilizations and dates these writings back along with Sumerian to that of a 413,000 to 432,000 years back.
All the above facts are as staggering as the count of Akshouhinis. Breath taking, but real, appalling but factual, nerve wrenching but absolutely stand out. The above 5 incidents provide links which we need to pick up to reconstruct the Mahabharata War. This reconstruction is hard job as the whole world is against this reconstruction as even single fact above if goes to public (West or east) it may create Panic. After all west wanted to maintain law order and peace all over the world.
From the above 5 distinct facts the following conclusions can be drawn.
There was a devastating war of epic proportions took place any where between 420,000 years to 390,000 years. (Now whether this A war is Mahabharata war or not is to be further researched and concluded). This validates the primary hypothesis, with remaining identification whether this ‘a war’ is Mahabharata or not.
This war destroyed a total area of close to 5.5 million square kilometers or 55 lakh square kilometers and Five (5) great drinking water lakes around the area turning them in to saline dead waters. This area is North West of India and North East of Africa approximately Midway includes current 13 nations starting from Lebanon until Iran. This validates the primary hypothesis, by satisfying Battle ground area Requirements of 18 Akshouhinis.
Prior to the war there was a massive mining operations undertaken on African Continent and prior to the mining the entire continent (or major part of the continent) was scorched and burned to clear the forests for mining and agriculture. This was done in the same approximate time frame of 450,000 to 390,000 years. This validates the primary hypothesis, by satisfying Battle’s metallurgical requirements of 18 Akshouhinis.
After massive human loss during the same war period after math (390,000-420,000 years) the human race was revived from the womb of Uttara (widow of Abhimanyu) by Krishna who was in Khandav Prastha current Africa where the Genetic Trace back ended as saying from African Neanderthal women current human race came forth. Sumerian Texts call this as breathing life in to man by gods.
Validates assumption ‘g’.
During the similar period Mayan Inca Aztec records confirm that there was a Summer Capital built in Varanavata (current South America) for Princes on Royal Command by Virochana (Viracocha in Spanish) and this building of summer Capital is the Zero date and this dates back to 500,000-420,000 years. Validates assumption ‘c’
Indraprastha is current India, Khandav Prastha being the Africa and Middle East with 5.5 Million Square kilometers area and being mid way between Indra Prasta (India) and Khandav (Africa) fits the most opt description of Kurukshetra. Varanavata being the South America. Validates assumption ‘b’
So Bharata Khanda which included 5 main countries Indraprastha, Khandav Prastha, Varanavata, Jayanta and Varuna Prastha. See Map-1. We can reconstruct the Map of Bharata Khanda as follows.
1. Antarctica —- Jayanta —-Place of Lush Green Vegetation which Antarctica was before 500,000 years ago. (See Series-3).
2. South America —-Varanavata— The story of Virochana (in Spanish Viracocha) building Summer capital on royal command for 5 princes was every where in all south American countries including the other facts of Mahabharata Story it self.
3. Africa —-Khandav Prastha —The traditional name for Africa in Zulu and Swahili language is Khandav. Africa is the racist name meaning black continent is the name given by Church to distinguish them from the white European nations.
4. India Proper—Indra Prastha —From Gandhara (Afghanistan and central Asia) to Kambhoja (Cambodia). The capital of the province was Hastina Pura, probably the current New Delhi.
5. Australia — Varuna Prastha — Land of Varuna or waters.
As seen in the map 500 million years ago when the earth broke up it broke up first in to three continents Bharata Khanda including Africa South America Antarctica and Australia. Then Eurasia called in Texts as Indraka Khanda, Arctic and North America defined as Ramanaka Khanda. The Bharata Varsha is the entire Earth it Self. Validates assumption ‘a’.
The Greek name Indica or subsequent Latin English derivative India or French le’ Inde all came from corrupt form of Indra Prastha but not from the Persian mis-pronunciation of Sindhu to Hindu to Indu to India. Greeks 1300 years before used the term Indica.
Till now all the facts support the Paleographic contention that Human evolved1 million to 500,000 years and by 450,000 they were fully developed with language, culture and arts. This situation now may change because of recent discovery of a sunken island in Indian Ocean 900 miles south of India’s southern tip which is dated to be as old as 179,000,000 years. Still studies are not commenced on this island but the initial photographs indicate there are structures consistent with buildings, roads etc.
It is also believed that this trans continental civilization developments abruptly came to and end at the beginning of Wisconsin or Wurn Glaciation which started 100,000 years BC., and ended around 15,000 BC. All civilizations affected by sudden glaciation and rapid advancement of northern Snow. Except in South America Africa and India it looks like all other continents got affected. All civilizations started to re appear around 12,000 years age in these areas. Reasons were still searched.
The last assumption that 3 distinct groups of people were annihilated cannot be tracked with the current level of technology. Though scientists agreeing that except Neanderthals none survived after Wisconsin glaciation after 100,000 BC.
In the next concluding section we discuss the implications of these findings. Do they prove there was Mahabharata? Why for until in India none are aware of all these facts? What should we do now? How to proceed next? Why there is a sudden effort to consolidate dates of all ancient civilizations around 3500 BC? How to redefine the geography of Indraprastha, Khandav Prastha, Varanavata, Bharata Varsha, and Bharata Khanda.
ALSO FROM PORTRAITOFINDIA DOT COM
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Vivekam: Thanks for the detailed comments and links…I will go through them when I have a moment
I have read all three of Shrikanth Talgeri’s books (including the latest Rig Veda and Avestha..) and most of published works on these topics and I must say he provides extremely compelling evidence for the OIT theory.
I am awaiting Witzels remarks on many of the comments as Talgeri has openly challenged him to refute any of the statements, and I think it would do good to all of us in having a open discussion between the two parties. I’m thinking of emailing Dr WItzel and asking him to read and respond to the same, maybe if enough requests are made he may oblige…