On Rahul Gandhi, Varun Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, EC – Continue the Debate

Comment # 131:

@Ashwin, I agree, let us wait for 15 months (not 5 yrs) to see how Raul really is as a politician cause I feel that will the the time when he will be installed in the front end of the government.

I find your selection of words, to describe Raul, very funny and more NDTV/CNNIBN type when you say “Rahul has been media shy and more measured when he is asked to give instant comments on issues…”

That is the hypocrisy I hate most! Different yardsticks for different people?

Comment by Hemant | May 31, 2009

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(in continuation with above comment – for some reason I am not able to post comment beyond certain wordcount :()

Raul gets to announce/say all the good (rather populist) things (e.g., loan waiver) while protected form real matters. On the same lines, when PM shamelessly says “First right to muslims and christians’ he is praised but Advani can’t use the word Hindu… (list is endless)

Comment by Hemant | May 31, 2009 |

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@ Harish,

On Varun gandhi issue, since EC is the constitutional body on elections, and it was convinced of the hate speech, hence such a rare advise was dished out to BJP.

As to Kagodu Thimpappa he was slapped with a Non bailable warrant a case has been registered against him and the law will take its course. I have seen the footage myself, being a senior leader he could have avoided what he blurted out.

On the issue of rtitimes and Dr. Swamy – i have long maintanied i shall not comment on their rhetoric. rtitimes has quoted merely what Dr. Swamy has said.

If i can recollect even Dr. Kalam had clarified to one if the news channels during 2004 he had not raised the issue of citizenship of Sonia Gandhi or the Foreign national issue. More importantly in democracy there is nothing bigger than the people power and people have voted Congress and Sonia Gandhi knowing very well the much publicised issues on foreign born and citizenships issue. If you can convince those or Dr Swamy can convince the people of Rae Bareli and the country not to vote for Sonia Gandhi, why should he not contest against her and raise these issues.

It is just a ply of the right wing sympathesiers and those who want to get cheap publicity stunt who are still harping on the issue.

Comment by Ashwin Kumaraswamy | May 31, 2009 |

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@ Hemant

I have all through maintained that both Rahul and Congress should deliver – Rahul should deliver on the internal democracy of the party, as he has talked much about it and also he has decided not to join the govt.
As for Congress, clearly we need to keep the govt on a tight leash and if they dont perform, make them aware of it.

The reason i used words measured and media shy – was in his first tenure, this is my take ” he was still getting to grips with what a like being a politician”. I have maintained the same yardstick on Varun as well, apart from one hate speech, i guess he can turn out to be a good politican, time will say – all i maintain is BJP managers and Varun could have done better in avoiding or by just issuing a simple apology if it would have hurt the sentiments of people. I guess the media is also to be balmed for giving too much importance to one speech of Varn Gandhi.

I was anticipating one of you would throw up Dr. Singh’s statement on right to access for minorities – as far as i can recollect it was made in a certain context. Happy to be corrected.

No one is pointing fingers at Advani for saying hindu – but the real issue of BJP is India for Hindus philosophy and also upper caste versus lower caste divide in the decision making process which makes them untouchables. Atleast for the first one is not acceptable.

Comment by Ashwin Kumaraswamy | May 31, 2009 |

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@ashwin,
No one denies EC is the constitutional body. But why the differential treatment?
Why did it not take action against usage of Osama masks? After all EC is also headed by bureaucrats isn’t it? Why did the EC not issue an advisory against the andhra congress chief for his statements? There are umpteen number of cases of EC bias.

What’s your point when you say people have elected Sonia gandhi, so one shouldn’t talk about it. People have also elected dreaded dons and criminals that doesn’t mean one should keep quite. Ours surely isn’t a matured democracy like in America where elections are fiercely fought on various issues where we have well informed electorate as well as candidates.

Please give a point by point rebuttal on documents produced by Dr.Swamy and rtitmes. As i said I am ready to eat the humble pie. It’s surely not a rhetoric. Or am i missing the meaning of rhetoric? 🙂

Comment by harish | May 31, 2009 |

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@ Harish:

No one denies EC is the constitutional body. But why the differential treatment?
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i am not sure of what differential treatment you are talking about. EC took action against Kagodu Thimappa.

Why did it not take action against usage of Osama masks?
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As i commented earlier, i haev not heard about this and hence i cant commment. Id indeed it was used why did the opposition parties or responsible citizens like you not lodge a complaint with the EC??

After all EC is also headed by bureaucrats isn’t it? Why did the EC not issue an advisory against the andhra congress chief for his statements?
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Why should have the EC issued advisory on AP – was it because of his comments on Telengana and rest of Andhra. It is a political issue and not a Election code of conduct violation. If it is and was as a responsible citizen you have the right to bring this to the notice of EC or even the oppostion parties can do the same. Varun Gandhi issues was brought to the notice of EC by a main line electronic media and later it was picked up by others.

There are umpteen number of cases of EC bias.
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I agree there are many poll conducated related incidences. I wouldf not go to the extent of EC bias, because i can quote a many similar incidence in the constituencies where the BJP CM and their ministers have violated poll conduct rules and yet no action has been taken.

I have no doubts on the independence of EC and their efforts to run a free and fair election.

What’s your point when you say people have elected Sonia gandhi, so one shouldn’t talk about it.
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I am only saying people have spoken on this issue and have voted her back not once 4 times and they dont see this as an issue.

People have also elected dreaded dons and criminals that doesn’t mean one should keep quite.
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Yes they have voted and they are defeaeted as well, but the cases against the dons are pending in court of law.
IF you are peeved about it why dont you file a PIL like many who have done on this issue and to my limited knowledge they have been squashed by the courts.

Ours surely isn’t a matured democracy like in America where elections are fiercely fought on various issues where we have well informed electorate as well as candidates.
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Do not under estimate the Indian voter – they have their way of hitting back. They did so at Indira gandhi for imposing emergency on India and other politicians are mere mortals and dont enjoy the support Indira had. Hence i am sure if voter really buys into it they shall surely take the right steps – this is the beauty of democracy.

Please give a point by point rebuttal on documents produced by Dr.Swamy and rtitmes.
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rtitimes has based its article on the back of the comments made by Dr Swamy. When fundementally i doubt the credibilty of such links and documents, why and how should i buy into what they are saying – you are the one who cited them, i am merely asking your to convince me on the issue. I hold and maintain the individual you haev named and the weblink are not credible and our authentic for me to even comment let alone buy their assertions.

It’s surely not a rhetoric. Or am i missing the meaning of rhetoric
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I see it as a rhetoric and cheap publicity gimmick – i am not sure why and how if at all you haev missed a point there??

I would suggest enlighten me on the issue by a credible source say a Govt of India or a Judiciary or even a EC ruling.

DO you think if there was anything that would have given a chance for the opposition parities to hit back at Sonia gandhi they would haev let go?? They tried all possible things and unfortunately they have fallen flat.

Comment by Ashwin Kumaraswamy | May 31, 2009 |

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@ashwin
As i commented earlier, i haev not heard about this and hence i cant commment. Id indeed it was used why did the opposition parties or responsible citizens like you not lodge a complaint with the EC??

complaints were lodged and EC didnt care to take a look @ it. I have already provided a link regarding the same and you still say I dunno I cant comment. I am sorry, again here I guess we have reached a point of no return.

Why should have the EC issued advisory on AP – was it because of his comments on Telengana and rest of Andhra

Sorry dear. You are wrong. He made statements on the lines of varun. Why didnt the EC issue an advisory then? Chk this for the proof.

I still dont understand your analogy of sonia being elected 4 times in a row and a few criminals biting dust. What’s the point that you wanna make? That’s no answer to the questions I asked. Should I remind the amount of background checks that happen on the president and many other top officials in America before they assume the office?

rtitimes has based its article on the back of the comments made by Dr Swamy. When fundementally i doubt the credibilty of such links and documents, why and how should i buy into what they are saying – you are the one who cited them, i am merely asking your to convince me on the issue.

Very intelligent. But sorry dear. I want to know what’s so “fundamentally” wrong in Dr.Swamy’s proposition or that of rtitimes? You need to explain it to me.

There are documents that Dr.Swamy presents from government archives. Can you prove that those are fabricated?
Example: This affidavit clearly showing sonia’s name in voters list.

Or the parliamentary archives recording swamy’s question to indira on her bahu. Can you prove the contrary?

Can you make efforts to look up the italian constitution and get back to me and prove the observations of rtitimes are wrong and such clauses dont exist?

There are still lots of PIL’s filed by Dr.Swamy in the courts on many issues. Lets wait n watch.

I am sorry but I think a meaningful debate cannot be fought with prejudice’s. Neither am I expecting you to assume a “holistic” view on Dr.Swamy and rtitimes. Eventually it just leads to banter and no logical conclusion is reached.
Debates cannot be fought with rhetoric or gut feeling, it needs to be logical. You are not supporting your statements with facts, but by pure gut feeling. I am sorry i feel its waste of time for both of us. Unless you can come up with “logical” rebuttal to my comments, I dont think so I would be responding to your comments.

BTW, since you proclaim to be a practising hindu. I sincerely request you to read the debate between adi-shankara and mandana mishra or the various exchange of letters that gandhiji had with various authorities on various issues. These are sort of benchmarks on how debates need to conducted. Its not to demean you or so, but the fact is you have not provided any logical explanation for you gut feelings.

Comment by harish | May 31, 2009 |

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@ Harish

I am notr sure if you are debating for the sake of it or not. EC is a constitutional body and they are not operated under any political pressures. I guess AP Congress president made soem remarks during elections which were divisive and a case was filed against him. Also people taugh the guy a better lesson giving him a break and asking him to sit at home.

In the same fashion as you have quoted i can also raise issues where in Shimoga Dist of Karnataka there were more than 100 odd cases registered against ruling BJP and Yeddyurappa and his ministers, actions were not taken – that does not mean EC is biased.

As a constitutional authority EC decides what is the best course of action to be taken based on the utterances and poll code of conduct violation.

The only reason varun’ sissue became as big it was becuase of media projections. But Gopalswami was caterogical on his last day as EC he clearly said EC was unanimous in issuing an advise based on what it had heard and looked in the tapes provided to EC on Varun’s rhetoric. There were many in BJP who have felt that it was counter productive.

On Dr. Swamy and rtitimes – as maintained i dont beleive their credibility and especially Dr.Swamy’s rhetoric filled utterances, i dont intend to take him credible enough for me to comment.
I am happy if you want to consider the utterances as truth and would request you to build a campaign to spread this and educate the rest as to why they are true.
Few questions:
1. If Dr.Swamy beleived and Rtitimes had confirmed information, why did they not make this a poll issue?
2. Why was this not exploited by BJP/SP/BSP who have always attacked Nehru Gandhi family
3. Is there any Indian Govt documents which state that Sonia Gandhi and Rahul gandhi are not rightful citizen of India.
4. Is there anything to prove that Sonia and Rahul’s action in the last how many ever years has led to beleive that they can compromise India’s interests and run away from India – when their family have lived and died in their service of India.

I am neither driven by gut feeling nor driven by any sense of not wanting to debate. I am merely saying I cant comment on Dr. Swamy because for me he is irrelevant in terms of his contributions to Indian polity. He empliyed similar tactics on Jayalalitha and next time he was sitting with her and together Sonia Gandhi pulled down Vajpayee Govt. How can a person at one time file a series of law suits on a individual and the very next moment scheme to pull down the govt with the support of those whom he ridiculed and in the process praised Jayalalitha to the core – all for political gains???

On being a practising hindu does not mean that i should be goiverned by what some exchanges. Communication with God is one seld it should not be governed by any middlemen. In the same context what right do individuals have to question others about their pratice of faith. My communication with God (Lord Shiva) is my prerogative and as long as i abide by the larger context of wor od god (Bhagwad Gita) i would and do not want to get caught in the dogma of vedas.

Comment by Ashwin Kumaraswamy | May 31, 2009 |

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@ harish

What defines Indianess is not just by having a registered citizenship or citizenship by birth, but also by actions Soina has demonstrated she could have done anythign she wanted after Rajiv’s death. At one point in 1991 she could have become the PM and she rejected it then and she did the same in 2004 (now lets assueme she did this out oc compulsions) – but the truth is her actions have rendered her to a true Indian.

All this argument based on a technical rule in Italy’s constitution does not mean that the individual in question has ever acted upon in such a fashion that it is anti indian or anti India. She is as Indian as probably I and you are in my opinion.

Unfortunately it you who is beating on rhetoric – if you so beleive i am questioning why is that Dr Swamy, you or others who subscribe to this rurumour, take the govt head on and get to the root of it, the day it is done may be i shall accept it.

Comment by Ashwin Kumaraswamy | May 31, 2009 |

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@Ashwin,

I agree with most of your original articles points of contention that swayed the balance of votes into the Congress favor. However it would be quite difficult to assign tangible swing %age using these factors.

All of us can rabidly discuss cases of Sonia’s passports or the intelligence of electorate till the cows come home.

But as Sanjay pointed out previously ultimately it all comes down to convincing the most number of idiots to vote for you or capture enough booths :).

The most important factor to victory was the Congress approach to alliances versus the NDA/Third Front’s competition in certain key states which swung in the Congress favor.

1. Vijaykanth factor in TN which was the difference of +30 seats for the UPA alliance

2. BJD split with BJP in Orissa again +20 swing for UPA (counting BJD with Congress)

3. Presence of Raj Thackeray in Maharashtra changed the dynamics of at least 10 seats there.

4. Presence of Chiranjeevi’s Praja Rajyam which split the anti-incumbency votes in AP by caste lines.

At a bare minimum, the Congress was shrewd to leverage a swing of 70 seats which couldve gone against them.

Comment by Dirt Digger | June 1, 2009 |

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“What defines Indianness is not just having registered citizenship or citizenship by birth”.

That may be true, but what defines eligibility for government position is defined by citizenship and not by “Indianness”. The reason why people are appalled by the notion of an Italian woman ruling us is that it is merely a repetition of the old colonial rule, where the the whites control the browns. And when Indians say that she is against India, what they mean is that she represents a threat to the Hindus, which she does. If we are seeing aggressive evangelization in India, it is wholly due to policies pursued by her government. She is in fact planting a cross on India, which is a direct affront to all Hindus whether they recognize it or not. The very notion that Hindus should stand back and peacfully allow this to happen is to expect them to willingly commit hara-kiri (self-destruction). And some of us refuse to do it.

Comment by K. Harapriya | June 1, 2009 |

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@ashwin,

When i told you to read the debate between it was to say how debates are conducted not to impose a dogma onto you. 🙂

Can you please define Indianness and what makes you think she is a true Indian?
Just that she didnt become PM after rajiv’s death?

On swamy, its a point of no return since you are not providing any tangible proof to disprove the annexures.

Many political parties don’t raise issues on global warming etc and it doesn’t mean that those issues exist. You need to ask why BJP/SP why it hasn’t raised this issue?
Regarding me taking this up. Surely I would do it in the coming years, once I finish my graduation.

Comment by harish | June 1, 2009 |

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RPuri in form in 2006

http://www.boloji.com/myword/mw042.htm

Comment by Avinash | June 1, 2009 |

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Pl. continue the discussion below.

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