Question of the Week
From a pre-election interview with Priyanka Gandhi in Outlook (Issue dt. May 11 ’09) by Sheela Reddy (emphasis mine):
Why is politics not drawing you?
Politics does not draw me because I’ve been through a whole introspective process about it before.
I was drawn to it earlier, thinking that is what I wanted to do, because it came naturally to me and for various other reasons. And I would even say-although I didn’t realise it until I was much older-for all the attention and all that. But it’s such a trap because it really allows you to think that you are more than ordinary.
And then you realise that you are ordinary, you go through a process where you discover that you are just like anyone else, and there’s nothing special about you; and what is being made of you is not because of who you are but because of the circumstances you are in.
Once you make that separation, then how you want to or do not want to use those privileges and circumstances depends on you.
Read it in full
Related Post:Re-assessing Rahul Gandhi
I feel that If and when Priyanka enters politics she will be too much to handle, for her opponents.
You are absolutely right borneveryday…
She is the one person who can derail all the best-laid plans…I see more and more of the Late PM Indira Gandhi in her…
Priyanka and Rahul may be the most wonderful people in the world. However, from the point of view of a democracy, dynastic rule is always a problem. The whole notion of a democracy is that all citizens are equal and any of them can aspire to the highest office in the land. An entire party, and especially the party that has ruled a nation most of the time, succumbing to dynastic rule is quite disturbing.
People, when I point out that dynasties are antithetical to democracy, are quick to remind me that recently the U.S. was ruled by two Bushes within a span of twenty years. That is true. But there will probably never be another Bush in the White House in the near future. And of course the entire Republican Party in the U.S. has not become the hand maidan of one family. Therein lies the difference.
Another statement I often encounter is that at least Rahul and Priyanka are better than the Lalus and Mulayam Singhs etc. That really is not the point. That Lalu and Mulayam are not really intellectual is no surprise. They are products of their individual circumstances and family background. The point is that Priyanka and Rahul, inspite of having such a privileged background, with the best education possible , haven’t exactly come across in public as particularly insightful. The real question is why aren’t these products of elite education (Harvard no doubt!) better at understanding the fundamental problems of India.
And that is where dynasties are fatal to democracy. Leadership is never an earned privilege. It is inherited. And as with most inheritances, there is a tendency to take it for granted.
@ Harapriya: Good point.
I Agree with what you are saying. But we also need to understand that being the scion of a political family should not be a reason to lable a deserving candidate’s selection as dynastic.
Let us snot forget Congress party is like a mini “mili-juli sarkar” There are various splinter groups and leaders with mass following and or not who form Congress party. Invariably they dont stick or come together if there is no glue in the form of Nehru-Gandhi family.
History is evident, Congress split for the first time and the splinter group headed by Nijalingappa and others was washed out and then it happened again under PVN and Kesari – the result was Congress was washed out. Hence Congress party went over board to get the reluctant Sonia Gandhi enter politics.
Why is there a animosity towards dynastic politics. This happens in alal other professions, and in every profession they have to 2nd generation have to prove themselves and only then can they carry the legacy. If they do not prove and dont get re-elected then inspite of having the legacy they cant go any where. It is the mandate of the people which makes them special.
This might be difficult to digest for some of your but the beauty of democracy is there is a level playing field for everyone to contest but the one who gets the mandate from the people is the one who gets elected.
People are not fools, they taught Indira Gandhi a lesson and largely Rajiv Gandhi also was taught a lesson. Sonia learnt in all means the hard way and the task of Rahul is to bring back the Congress its halcyon days and to reform the party such that it can be acceptable in the comming years and the demographics of electorate is changing and so is the times.
@ Ashwin: So there is nothing that binds the Congress party members together other than their “love” for the Nehru-Gandhi (not Mohandas) family? No ideology? No commitment to “socialism” and oh, “secularism”?
And please be a bit realistic. You and I both know how the “mandate” of the people can be manipulated, bought, twisted and bullied to your liking.
The field is “level” only so far as anyone can contest…After that, the odds are stacked massively against the “outsider”…which is NOT the case in other professions.
And it is interesting that on one hand you rue the decline of the country in the past 35 years (most of which were spent under Congress rule) and on the other you talk of Rahul Gandhi taking Congress back to its halcyon days. Which days exactly? Not Emergency, I am sure?
My understanding of Congress party has been that it would loose its sense of integration if there is no Nehrus Gandhi fanily at the helm of affairs.
The other reason is also the appeal of the Nehru – Gandhi family members cutting across the states, caste, creed and religion. People can assiciate with say a Nehru, Indira, Rajiv and now Sonia and Rahul. This is not possible for any other Congressmen/women.
Hence it is safe to say they are the glue for the party holding together.
There is an element of bullying, there was manipulation of electoral mandate in terms of votting and people do purchanse votes. But one does not see all these factors working in all the constituencies and also the scale of this varies. But as a factor they are truly present.
I have never said, rather Congress has never told they have not committed mistakes. In the same context Congress has paid the price for its mistakes and it will in future if it frets away with the mandate it has been given.
Rahul Gandhi, for me without patronising him, has been workign for bringing changes in the Youth Congress and slowly he also intends to bring necessary changes in the party functioning, at this stage i have hope that he will do it, and i dotn have any reasons to doubt his commitment to do so.
@Ashwin
Will you let me use the word ‘taming’ instead of holding together and glue. Or you will have problem with that?
@Ashwin
The other reason is also the appeal of the Nehru – Gandhi family members cutting across the states, caste, creed and religion. People can assiciate with say a Nehru, Indira, Rajiv and now Sonia and Rahul. This is not possible for any other Congressmen/women.
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Yeah, of course if you name over 450 organizations or schemes after only 3 individuals and all that people see is their name all over the place. That’s what they will remember. You may be calling it appeal but I think it is nothing short of vulgar use of public money to credit themselves for everything. For eg. Go to ISRO’s website. What do you see other than an outmoded UI? No “Mad” Indian Scientist. No Indian Astronaut. No “Crazy” Indian Mathematician. You find Rajiv Nehru’s picture. Now what in the world did he have to do with space, I wonder. As an ardent Sycophant, I am sure you will say that he was pilot. So? There are hundreds of pilots in India, what do they have to do with space. How about those pilots in Indian Air Force who in addition to other Armed Forces deserve more respect than anyone else. Why not have a picture of one of them? Congress didn’t even spare reputed IIMs for God Sakes. They called the IIM in Shilong as “Rajiv Gandhi Indian Institute of Management”. What kind of BS is this? Self-Congratulating Sycophancy Galore.
Isn’t it amazing. Over 1.2 Billion Indians but they can’t find anyone else not even Regent PM Manmohan Singh other than the Nehru clan to name these institutions. In US people even name Highway stretches after those Police officers who died in the line of Duty but Congress is so selfish that veterans were forced to return their Medals in order to protest and demand their rights.
I read it somewhere. Congress wouldn’t have touched Shri Ram Setu if it was called Gandhi Setu.
Mad publicity at tax payers cost.
Mr. A. Surya Prakash says and I agree:
Most of the central and state government programmes and schemes and national and state-level institutions which run on public money have been named after three members of the Nehru-Gandhi family. The Congress Party’s desire to credit every social sector programme, every national institution and every national achievement to these three individuals -Rajiv Gandhi, Indira Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru – has reached vulgar proportions, specially after the Congress-led UPA came to power in 2004.
@ Satyabhashnam,
This is heights of frustration!!!!
Just by naming street or an institution that does not make them any closer to people. It is their work and how they lived their lives and what they did durign their lives that finds a place in the hearts and minds of the people my dear friend.
@ Ashwin: Closer or not, it does have an influence on the people.
Do you agree that a disproportionate number of institutions/monuments/programmes in India have been named after the Nehru-Gandhi family? Don’t tell me that the government names them not the family – because the family has been at the helm of the government for the bigger part of the last 60 years…and pl. don’t say that this was done on “janta ki maang”.
Secondly, please have a look at Why Nehru, Indira, Rajiv everywhere? by A Surya Prakash (referred to by Satyabhashanam above) from which some excerpts below:
and finally, please read “Naming of Things” by Atanu Dey from which some excerpts below:
I rest my case.
@Shantanu and Satyabhashanam: Well said and explained, putting forth the story of how the rights of the very Indian citizens are getting quashed. This might be the perfect example how Congress misuses and abuses the power. This also explains that neither of the Congress partymen are capable enough to come forward and lead the country the way it should be. Probably that is the reason why they take shelter under Nehru/Gandhi’s blessings and screw-up things the way they want.
I request a research on How Nehru/Gandhi family screwed-up the Independence and India at large. I also request interested parties to read “The Constitution of India” and see how this family twisted it into their own benefits.
|| NAMO BHAARTAM NAMO SAMSKRITAM||
Actions speak louder than words. For example, Mayawati put up her own statues and that of Kanshiram in most part of UP – the result was she was made to eat humble pie.
Though naming can be useful in keeping the names and their respective parties or familiy in the people memory, but more importants the way the individuals behave and carry themselves is more important for legacies to progress.
E.g. is Kamaraja in Tamil Nadu, every govt in TN would swear by his principles, he has no family in politics but even todate his Name has remained in the hearts and minds of the people irrespective of him being more a TN based politician.
E.g. JP – he himself did not occupy power, but his deeds spoke for him adn he is still remembered in many parts of India.
All i am saying is naming gives a edge only if that can be carried out by actions. And more importantly the contributions of the Nehru, Indira Gandhi and Rajiv (though to a lesser extent) cant be ignored in Indian polity and it is they work that has endeared them to the people. For example I have grown up reading about Nehru, when i was born he was long dead, what endeared me to admire him was not any progrmmes or schemes named after him, but his contributions to India and his writings.
On Indira Gandhi, even the RSS praised her inspite of she imposing emergecy in the country.
About Rajiv Gandhi, lets face it even his hardest political opponents dont slag him of his contributions and they always say he was a hope which India lost (Even Dr. Subramaniam Swamy says “Rajiv was not just Indira’s investment but he was an Indian investment, which was lost due to LTTE”).
I can only say, all these theories by who ever they are nice academic exerices or their hypothesis to serve their own needs and or purposes.
Shantanu, this is very trivial – Even though if some ardent BJP supporters dont accept the fact Congress led UPA comming to power, but atleast they can be gracious in accepting defeats rather than making mountain of a mole hill.
@ Ashwin: I am afraid you are not tackling the main argument here.
You wrote: …For example, Mayawati put up her own statues and that of Kanshiram in most part of UP – the result was she was made to eat humble pie.
The point is not what Mayawati did or did not do (or what were the consequences).
The questions are: Is it right? Does it not subtly influence voters?
Pl. answer this for me.
I realised that you have kind of answered it in your next sentence: “Though naming can be useful in keeping the names and their respective parties or familiy in the people memory…”
You wrote: E.g. JP – he himself did not occupy power, but his deeds spoke for him adn he is still remembered in many parts of India. I can bet you that more people will recall “Rajiv Gandhi” than “JP” in most parts of India. Do you think that makes Rajiv Gandhi’s deeds/actions more admirable or better than JP? Is “name recall” really a yardstick for judging performance?
You wrote: All i am saying is naming gives a edge only if that can be carried out by actions.
Pl. name some “actions” carried out by the late Sanjay Gandhi that justifies his name on an institution.
Finally, I am not discussing here the actions of the Nehru-Gandhi family (or what they did for India) but merely questioning whether naming hundreds of institutions after a single family, ignoring the contributions of hundreds of others is correct or not.
You wrote: I can only say, all these theories
Theories? Are you disputing the 450 number? If you are not, what is your alternative interpretation or “theory”?
You wrote: Shantanu, this is very trivial – Even though if some ardent BJP supporters dont accept the fact Congress led UPA comming to power, but at least they can be gracious in accepting defeats rather than making mountain of a mole hill.
Actually Ashwin, if you would have clicked on the links to Surya Prakash’s and Atanu’s articles, you would have found out that both were written BEFORE the elections. They are not post-facto rationalisations.
Surya Prakash wrote his piece in Mar 2009. Atanu’s is even more “dated” – Feb 2008.
And please do answer this question I raised at the beginning of my earlier comment (#12):
Do you agree that a disproportionate number of institutions/monuments/programmes in India have been named after the Nehru-Gandhi family?
The key word is “disproportionate”.
@ Shantanu
It is not that i am tackling the issue, all i am saying is every party associates programmes to further their interests and when congress comes to power they choose Nehur- Gandhi family as their mascots, what better mascots for Congress thaan them. They are like “brand” and Congress is marketing their brand value.
Naming schemes does not influence voters to vote for a party or not. If we think so, i am afraid we are understimating the voters inherent understanding of politics. Our voters both rural and urban are much informed.
I disagree with you that it naming schemes/institutions influence the voters. For E.g. RTI and NREGA – both were beach head schmes of UPA and everyone knows it was Sonia and others who pushed for the scheme.
May be a lot of schemes are names after Nehur-Gandhi family members, but to say doing so it influences voters, is slightly far fetched.
@Ashwin K.
From all your replies, I find you are much worried about your brand name rather than how and what it matters to the nation and its citizens. You can never be honest in your opinion and views because you are carring a heavy baggages of Nehru-Gandhi family. The traits of denial and refusing to acknowledge the facts which you have exhibited by your replies on behalf of Congress. I can only say Keep in mind, the day people of India will wake up from its slumber, Congress will be on their knees. Till then keep your eyes half open at your will.
I pity you for loving your brand names larger than your Country. You have used the words as if Nation is a property and product of Nehru-Gandhi family. They are in the office to discharge their duties not claiming and gaining their names or furthering their interests. Serving a country is a selfless acts. I want to know from where did you get the lessons by serving the country, further your interests and brand value? Its jsut an heartless exploitation of the public. Chi..
@Indian
Firstly, i dont carry any baggage, also i am not the one who reacts box standard and the one who looks every issue pessimistically. I am an eternal optimist.
Also dont assume, you views mirror the entire nation. Try to acknowledge there are differing views and this is the beauty of India, truly Unity in diverssity.
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You can never be honest in your opinion and views because you are carring a heavy baggages of Nehru-Gandhi family.
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I am happy if you dont agree with my views, but try not to make personal attacks by assuming certain things without knowing me. This reflects a very badly on you rather than me my friend. The decorum of public discussion should at least be followed.
The traits of denial and refusing to acknowledge the facts which you have exhibited by your replies on behalf of Congress.
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What facts are you talking about. YOu are merely making allegations based on secondary research which can easily be questioned on their authenticity. If you say facts, can you prove your “facts” and if you have information then please take it to the court of law or any body to get your rightful justice.
Rather i would say, it is a good trait to question everything Congress does, as they should be accoutable. But dont make allegations, research “facts” rather than newspaper clips.
I can only say Keep in mind, the day people of India will wake up from its slumber, Congress will be on their knees. Till then keep your eyes half open at your will.
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You seem to be anti Congress, you are entitled to your opinion. And i do beleive that if Congress doesnot deliver they shall be put out. I have no doubts that the Congress leadership understands this. If they dont then they better understand, else as people we will surely remind them.
I pity you for loving your brand names larger than your Country. You have used the words as if Nation is a property and product of Nehru-Gandhi family.
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You come across as having a pathological hatredness towards the Nehru-gandhi family and Congress. And also seem to equate everythign bad, this i would caution you not to get sucked into your obsession.
All i am saying is if only naming schemes would garner votes, then identity oriented parties like LJP, BSP, SP, Shiva Sena, RJD would and should never have seen defeats. Also you are assuming that the voters are ignorant, this is your biggest ignorance – i am sorry to say this my friend.
@Ashwin
You have mistaken me. Its not about anti or pro. But with me its fine. Take care!
@Ashwin. “Why is there a animosity towards dynastic politics. This happens in alal other professions, ”
The question is– is politics and serving the people just another profession or is it a calling? I always assumed that those who seek public office should be those who genuinely want to serve the people and make a difference, not because they couldn’t find something else to do. That is why I am against these career politicians who have never held down another job . Politics cannot become the last resort of the unemployed and the unemployable.
As for being against the Nehru-Gandhi family’s continued presence in politics, there are those of us who see this for what it is–dynastic rule in a supposed democracy. By the way, just because we have elections every five years does not mean we are a complete or even true democracy. (Even Saddam Hussain regularly held elections in which he always won). And the fact the we have a CEC chosen by the ruling party casts serious doubts on our own democracy.
If the Nehru-Gandhi family truly cared about the people as opposed to the power, there are so many things they could do outside of government. With their superstar appeal, I am sure they could probably do more good in the areas of education and healthcare and none of these require them to wield political power. The fact that neither branch of the family (Sonia’s or Menaka’s) has done an honest day’s work in any realm should be of concern to all of us.
Perhaps the most important reason why people object to family dynasty dominating politics is because it becomes more like a monarchy and not a democracy. As far as I know, in no other profession where the son/daughter takes over the parent’s practice, are they paid by taxpayer money. But in politics, elected officials, their kids, spouse etc all get free housing, transportation and security at our expense.
@ Harapriya,
I disagree with your views on dynastic politics. Be if Nehru Gandhi family or anyone as long as they are getting elected by the people of India i have no problems. It may be easy for them to get a ticket to contest, but lets face it they still need to win elections.
Even the mighty Indira Gandhi lost elections when people felt she was a tad over the top when she enforced emergency rule in India.
I genuinely beleive politics is the best form to serve tghe people. And also there are other forms to serve the people, but i maintain it is the best form, with all due respect to other forms fo serving the people. There i have sympathies with Nehru Gandhi family.
You have raised a very good point on our politicians being paid by the govt to provide leadership – unlike developed countries our politicians dont get that well paid. This would be a good issue to address as a post or as a seperate thread to capture the relevance, may be Shantanu could do this.
On the issue of Navin Chawala and his alleged links to Congress party – even if we assume everything said and talked about is true, the beauty of Indian democracy and Election Commission of India is CEC is just the first amogst the equals, one still needs a majority to get things done, hence there are 3ECs.
I can only say, take a realistic view rather than academic view on politics.
Shantanu, please pardon my long post.
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@Ashwin
May be a lot of schemes are names after Nehur-Gandhi family members, but to say doing so it influences voters, is slightly far fetched.
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And I thought there were Ostrich in Africa only. Even with so much proof in front of you, you still have your head under the sand. Amazing level of dedication for Nehru-Gandhi-Maino family. Very Nice. Please don’t take me wrong. I am fine with your views as it helps me to imagine how close was Regent King Dhritrastr to being delusional by running after his Mahatvakansha. 😉
W.r.t. to your reply about naming schemes doesn’t influence the voters, how would you explain the following my friend? Oh wait, I know. It doesn’t affect the voters. Right.. May be that’s why Congress built only 14 km of highway in 2005 (http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2009/02/arun-shourie-advani-at-campus-jnu.html). Keep that ardent love for the Monarch going…
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“Decision to remove Vajpayee’s photographs criticised” by Hindu on July 27, 2004
The Bharatiya Janata Party general secretary, Arun Jaitley, has strongly disapproved of the Government’s reported move to remove all photographs of former the Prime Minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, from the sky boards on national highways being built under the National Highways Development Project.
“This is part of a series of actions taken by the United Progressive Alliance Government that smacks of arrogance and intolerance,” Mr. Jaitley said, adding that this was “another bad precedence for the future,” the first being the sacking of Governors appointed by the previous regime. Such an attitude would also encourage future governments to remove names and photographs of leaders of rival parties from various hoardings and signboards.
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The first thing that Congress did when it made govt. in 2004 was to revoke/revert everything that BJP did. Not just remove POTA but remove everything that can be associated with Vajpayeeji and BJP’s contribution to nation building.
Main to abhi bhi kehta hoon let us rename Shri Ram Sethu as Gandhi Sethu, at least tab to wah punya bridge bach jayega.
Ashwin you want graciousness in defeat for making mountain out of a mole hill.
You know, Winning and losing is part of life. We all get pissed when India looses to Pakistan in cricket matches. And who says we ever won. We all have been loosing something since 1947. It all started with losing significant part of our land, Shagun ke रॠ51 crore, lives of Millions of innocent Hindu-Sikh Indians in riots during partition and so on for 60 years. We didn’t care. Lately in past 5 years, we all are fine that Mohamed Amir Kasab is living life king size in a hotel demanding his perfumes and books just like his brother Mohamed Afzal Guru at the cost of tax payers. We didn’t care. His shrewd lawyer Kazmi compared Kasab to Sage Valmiki. We didn’t care. Kazmi in addition to making a mockery of Indian Justice system is making over रॠ2500 per day paid for by tax payers (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/kazmis-fee-for-defending-ajmal-kasab-rs-2-500-a-day/458361/). No wonder he is delaying the case. We didn’t care.
Country is going through worst recession in 60 years under a over rated World Renowned Economist. We didn’t care. We haven’t had a full time Finance Minister for past 150 days at such times of crisis. We didn’t care. All that Congress has done is run to US and exchange love letters to answer Pakistan questions in the case of this unprecedented 26/11 terrorist attack. We didn’t care. Congress brought in a law to pay pension to Terrorists and their families but not to Army & its veterans. We didn’t care. Veterans returned their medals. We didn’t care. Even after 45 Major terrorist attacks in 67 cities in past 5 years. We didn’t care. US calls India’s response to terrorism down right pathetic. We didn’t care….so on and so forth. Let me know if you want more.
What we cared for was in an unprecedented move let USCIRF, an external agency, enter India and beat us with its hypocritical stick and lecture us on Secularism when West themselves namely Russia, UK and Middle East whose intolerant history is not even freaking 2000 years old openly suppress Hindu Rights and Liberties.
With so much s**t that Bharat has gone through since its so-called Independence in 1947 most of which (mis)ruled by Congress that losing this election dun’t matter. What matters is that India lost. Again. It got screwed by Indians. Again.
It is exactly to prevent these kinds of problems that the Americans have something called term limits. So even the very best President can only serve two terms and it doesn’t become a lifetime employment. Even the U.N., one of the most bureaucratic family of organizations has rules which resrict two people from the same family from serving the same organization. The problem of such dynasties is the inherent nepotism and abuse of power. As I mentioned before, even dictatorial rulers regularly hold elections and manage to win them. The difference between a Saddam Hussain or a Hugo Chavez and a George Bush is that at the end of eight years Bush has to go–he cannot keep turning up like a bad penny or foist his kids on the Republican party etc.
Unfortunately, this dynastic politics is not restricted to the Congress. Even third rate parties like the DMK manage to center the entire party on the leader and his various progeny (which he derived from multiple wives–(as an aside–isn’t bigamy against the law and shouldn’t the state prosecute?)
I assume that those who support dynastic politics have no problems with nepotism or abuse of power.
As to the contention that Indian politicians are not that well paid, that is not true. They may not receive the same amount that American politicians do legally, but they more than make up for that with all the kickbacks . That is why many of them have swiss bank accounts etc. A few years back, when the chief minister of my state Tamil Nadu had problems with his nephew (Dayanidhi Maran) he was able to
start another competing TV channel to SUN TV (owned by the Marans) almost overnight. It was widely reported that it cost him 200 crores. I am assuming that at least some of that money has come from taxpayers–or am I wrong in thinking that. Should we put that kind of wealth to something he inherited or earned through legitimate means considering his legal salary?
The argument seems to be that since the people have chosen one party over the other, they must be right or that it was a free and fair election.
We know from various examples in history that a people can get it wrong. Even Hitler was voted into office in a democratic nation. He then managed to use the state to dismantle the democratic norms. It is therefore conceivable that even in democracies there is a an inherent danger of would be dictators getting power and subverting the democracy. We see that in our own country where a sitting Prime Minsiter (Rajiv Gandhi) was able to overthrow a Supreme court verdict. The question is, would he have done that if he knew that he had a fixed term limit and that the people will remember this as his legacy.
Another example would be Indira Gandhi. Had we not had her, perhaps the socialist ideas of her father would have been discredited sooner and we would have been on the path to wealth sooner.
In India we often encounter the notion that reservations are justifiable in the name of fairness–a form of historical correction. Isn’t the very fact that one family occupies the top spot similar to the caste system of yore–where birth alone determines status? Shouldn’t we also have a fairness standard which allows a more diverse group of people to head the Congress Party ( the oldest and most revered of parties)?
I think, in the interest of the nation, it is always a good idea to expand the gene pool from which we pick our leaders.
@Ahwin. I always like it when people use such proper terminology “First among equals”. What does that actually mean? This is often used to refer to the Prime Minister. But how does it play out? Does he follow his conscience or is there a higher power to bow down to? If he has to bow-then there is no equality.
You use it to refer to Navin Chawla. But is it so? Wasn’t Gopalswami threatened with removal when he questioned the selection of Chawla. So who is the puppeteer here? And are all they really equal?
Check out this on Navin Chawla.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/feb/02chawlas-loo-breaks-led-to-congress-phone-calls-cec.htm
@Haripriya,
Wow, 200 crores. I’m sure Karunanidhi’s ancestor was RajaRaja Cholan who left him a boat load of money to spend 🙂
Jokes aside, Great points on the need for term limits.
Look at Rabri Devi being CM of Bihar, when everyone knew who was the power behind the throne.
Navin Chawla is a Congress puppet, his wife leads an NGO which is a front for Congress black money and was closely related to Congress since the early 80s.
In fact if you check wikipedia, it gives a link to an article where the Shah commission ruled that Chawla was one of the most incompetent bureaucrats it said, ‘authoritarian and callous’ and for gross misuse of power “in cynical disregard of the welfare of citizens”.
Further, it declared that he was “unfit to hold any public office which demands an attitude of fair play and consideration for others”
@ Satyabhashnam
Apologies to get technical – neither am i a Congress spokesperson nor am i a Congress member at this point of time.
1. Yor are citing Arun Shourie, who is a member of BJP member and an ex – minister in the BJP Govt. They are just trying to rationalise they defeats and also whipping up their position to power with whatever they can get hodl of in terms of issue. Rather than being a constructive oppositionj, they spent the majority of th elast 4yrs by disturbing the proceedings of the house. And when elections was nearing they invited the PM for a public debate (like that of a US presedential style elections).
It is my view and opinion, unless one delivers no matter what postering they do, it does not help. E.g. Bellary in Karnataka untill 2004 any Congress candidate would have won, as people had lots of faith in those who talked about Nehru – Gandhi family members, but when it was pushed to the limit without and constructive development the people rejected Congress candidate.
Urban india comes to know about the scheme name, where as in rural india, people are more bothered about tangible change or benefits adn that is what they are botherd about and not the scheme or programme names. This is based on my interaction with the people. I woulf suggest you to please go out of the world wide web and speak to people, and then formulate your opinion and views rather than getting influenced and seeing the world from others view. There is a subtlity that you need to understadn, one can get inspired by others talk, but unless one explores themselves you cant formulate your own ideas and opinion. This is again my approach towards life, i may be right or wrong. But its a suggestion.
Just because a Modi or a Shourie says, that does not mean they are not furthering their own interest. When they were in power, all they had to do so was issue a ordinacne to change the name of the scheme if they felt Congress had a undue advantage. Why did they not do?? I can only say this is just another way of diverting attention from the real issues.
2. On the National Highway project – it was unfortunate that Atalji photo was removed and also govt lost a good opportunity to show a sense of satesmanship by not forwarding Atalji’s name for Bharat Ratna i feel. He is a doyen of Indian politics. Also the sad part is T R Balu drove the Highways project to obscurity by dolling out contracts to his own minders. Hence industry has come out strongly in trying to block him from comming back to govt. Let us hope Surface Transport does not go to DMK and to T R Balu.
POTA – i am not against it being repelled. What India needs if more premptive measures and intelligence gathering rather than after effect events. Also we haev seen TADA being misused big time and Congress has paid the price for the same. There are enough powers in the current IPC to help agencies to bring terrorists and suspects under rule the law.
On the issue of Kasab: it would be important for India to show to the world that our judicial system is impartial. It is wrong to cast doubts on the govt appointed lawyer. Dont forget he is an Indian as well, just because the lawyer is a muslim one should not doubt his integrity.
You have raised a larger issue of history, it may be worth to take this outside the gambit of the current discussion.
My frind, i am not going to get dragged into the hindu identity war. I am a hindu like you and i am proud that India is a place where there is unityin diversity and i am proud that secularism is embedded in us by and large.
@ Harapriya,
The founding father of Independent India thought very well before Indian consitiution was drafted and adopted the parliamentray form og governance rather than the presedential form of governance.
The obvious pit falls are in the presedential form of goivernment absolute power is given to one man and we have recently seen how Mr.Bush behaved in his two terms of presidency and he has done more damage to world peace that any other leader in recent history.
On the issue of Navin Chawala, as i said let us assume he is a congress agent, but there has been free and fair elections under him and there has not been any chance for any manevouring. He was in charge of assembly elections in UP where BSP won the elections and so was he in Gujrat and Karnataka where BJP has won.
First among equals means the constitution said there will be one Cheif Election commissioner but he can take any decision without the approval 2 of the total 3 commissioners (including him). I have big time faith in our Institutions, it has stood the test of times and i am sure it shall stand the test of times in the future as well.
Once appointed as a EC, only the president has the rights to impeach them and not the elected govt, as it is a constitutional post. Gopalswami pointed out to incidences that raised suspicion, but he did not say he had proof of Navin Chawala doing so. Would BJP have removed navin Chawala from the beign the CEC after comming to power, i doubt they would or could have.
@Ashwin
Dont forget he is an Indian as well, just because the lawyer is a muslim one should not doubt his integrity.
—
I am out for this weekend. Pardon me, I can’t give a full reply. Will catch up when I come back. I have skimmed through your response. As for your line above, I never said I doubt Kazmi because he is a muslim. Please don’t put words in my mouth. I may be a Hindu Rightist but I am not a maniac. If someone talks for national interest, I am with him/her. No matter what side of the spectrum (ideology/cult/religion/watever) he/she is from. Period.
But if you will read various interviews that Mr. Ujwal Nikkam (Public Prosecutor) has given. He clearly says that there have been tactics from the defense to unnecessarily delay the case. Impartiality in this case when the world saw this terrorist on TV shooting people. Yeah, I am sure allot of people will be more than willing to depose that he actually did it. If not, that reflects we don’t care.
Also, trust is hard to come by my friend. When Home Minister of the country repeated parroted lines and has time to change his clothes three times during times of national crisis. If you ask me, I don’t trust this govt. one wee bit and it has to do allot to earn it back. 45 major terrorist attacks is not a joke. Even one attack is not. We all saw how Kasab almost dodged the IPC bullet by falsely claiming that he is a minor. If IPC was good enough why did the govt. change it half-heartedly after 26/11 only. Why not before/during previous terrorist attacks? What steps did govt. take to prevent these attacks in past 5 years?
Since you have brought up Muslim angle. US govt. has successfully prevented/neutralized close to 23 terrorist attacks since 9/11. Muslims are second largest religion in US. Does someone calls US govt. communal for preventing these attacks? No. I say so because most of the plotters were unfortunately American Muslims. So why is Indian govt. overtly cautious?
Anyways, I got to go. Have a nice weekend guys.
@ Satyabhashnam
Shivaraj Patil as a home minister was probably the weakest choice.
As for delaying tactics, i have heard the same in the new reports, but it is important for India to show to the world there is a impecable and fair judicial system. So i would say hang on, justice will surely come.
Every country has its own social and cultural issues before we can make an impact. But i should say you have brought out a very important aspect “Education of muslims in India” and also “Also why is muslims credibility and nationality questioned each time there is a blast”.
Have a nice weekend!!!
@ Aswhin: The right thread(s) for discussing “Education of Muslims in India†and “Why is Muslim’s credibility and nationality questioned each time there is a blast†may be found under “Islam and Reform” and “Islam and Terrorism” in the Categories drop-down menu in the right-hand side bar.
@Ashwin. “The founding Father of India” I take it you are referring to Dr. Ambedkar. Let us actually examine the wisdom of the framers of the constitution. First of all, for all those Hindus out there, this is what he had to say about your religion and civilization.
“The Hindu Civilisation…. is a diabolical contrivance to suppress and enslave humanity. Its proper name would be infamy.”
Yes, we can dismiss this as merely his angst at the problem that harijans faced through the centuries. But the question remains, should the constitution be framed by those who have a dislike for the practices of the majority of the population.
Secondly, Indians always like to compare themselves to the Americans and try to point out how we are better. But are we? Is the parlimentary system better? Not really. Recently, Senate Democrats who were supposedly going to go along with everything Obama proposed stopped him from closing Guantanamo–a promise he campaigned on. When was the last time the Congress party ever stopped a Gandhi from doing what he wants?
What we know from the Constitution itself is that it has undergone 94 or more amendments in sixty years. This is far more than the U.S. one has in more than 200 years.
I have serious doubts about a constitution which does not guarantee equal treatment for all its citizens, equal rights for all its citizens, freedom of speech in its broadest sense and the right to due process in a speedy and efficient manner.
The very fact that we do not have a uniform civil code, that the majority community’s religious structures are not free from governmental control, or that a small time politician like Varun Gandhi was arrested and jailed for mouthing off tells me that there is something fundamentally wrong with the original piece.
I also think that the parlimentary system as it is practiced in India does not have the separation of power among the three branches of government that one witnesses in the U.S. In the U.S. the people independently choose the Senate, the House of Representatives and the President with separate ballots. The President is not chosen by the Senate or the House.
Harapriya>>>Yes, we can dismiss this as merely his angst at the problem that harijans faced through the centuries. But the question remains, should the constitution be framed by those who have a dislike for the practices of the majority of the population.
There seems to be two assumptions here. 1. ‘Harijans’ faced a problems through the centuries. 2. Practices of the majority of the population were worth disliking.
Are you making these two assumptions on the basis of solid facts ?
@Incognito. Actually those statements are addressed to those who accept the secularized version of Indian history which claims that harijans were always mistreated and that the entire corpus of Hinduism is aimed at belittling a segment of humanity. I personally have a problem accepting this version of history ,yet I do recognize that it reflects what is taught as history both in India and abroad.
Having said that, should we have people who hold such little regard for Hinduism and Hindus in general, as the framers of a constitution which govern us (the Hindus).
Neither Nehru nor Ambedkar seemed to care that the Hindus too should have the right to self-determination. Nehru seemed more concerned about Kashmir and Ambedkar seemed more concerned about the Harijans. So right of the bat, it seems we were ruled by those whose focus was on special interest groups.
For that matter, even Gandhi didn’t seem to particularly care about Hindu suffering. His response to the violence that Hindus faced in Kerala and Bengal was singularly unremarkable–he had no response. Here was a man who was called a Mahatma not by muslims, but by Hindus. Here was a man who was elevated to almost an avatar and yet he seemed almost dismissive of Hindu concerns. One of the truly remarkable things is that the concepts that he proposed whether it be ahimsa or swadeshi, it was the Hindus who have internalized those messages.
This might not be the correct place for this, but I am forced to post this here. The pallavi in many of the posts seems to be that the lower castes were treated better in the glorious past, any temporary aberrations in the occupation-capability-based stratification of society (or would classification be a more acceptable choice?) was the fault of the Muslims, the British, the someone else, and that, in fact, the so-called downgradation of a class of people is mostly media hype.
God bless you! But ignorance is not always bliss.
For our pre-Islamic past, I give you Bhagavan Shri Krishna in two different translations of the Mahbharatha. His denunciation of Shishupala, before he, as the comrades and their opponents in a vast forgotten swathe of India say, “Chhe inch chhota kar di”.
Desirous of speedy death, this fool had desired Rukmini. But the fool obtained her not, like a Sudra failing to obtain the audition of the Vedas.
As the low-born seeks the Veda, soiling it with impure breath, Sisupala sought my consort, and his righteous
doom is Death!
For the present, walk into any urban slum in India and take a headcount. Or go visit a village in Gujarat ( I say Gujarat because of first-hand experience and it is one of the states in India which has seen more mass movements than ever, so situation better than other places) and have a look at the outskirts of the village where the BCs live. And the fact remains that even in cities, well-educated families from the lower castes are denied accommodation amongst the upper castes. Independent India has celebrated its shashtipurthi. We have to grow up, sometimes. And the situation is improving. After the next generation, caste will be a matter of great fascination to academics. When Swami Vivekananda came to Kerala, he was so shocked with the strangle hold the caste system had over people that he called it a lunatic asylum. Reformers from all communities achieved marvels and transformed the place, so that caste is more of a joke there. There still remain the Adivasis, who had their lands and their livelihood stolen from them and who are still exploited and oppressed. Even this will pass. There is no need to feel guilty for the sins of our forefathers. There is only a need to understand facts and to move on to better times.
Oh, and is not dynasticism just a continuation of the belief that a Raja’s son by virtue of his upbringing and background, is the obvious Yuvaraja? I am not faulting the kids’ choice – they hardly have any – doctor, scavenger, businessman, priest, musician, actor, politician, social worker, they follow in their father’s foot-steps unless they have a chance to escape. Is it not our obvious desire to recognize the chip of the old block in them that negates choice for them at a formative stage in life? Or is it a combination of a longing to see them safe in familiar pastures and a hidden desire to deny them the freedom denied to ourselves?
Ashwin, why does India need confirmation/affirmation/approval from the world or needs to show others? Are our democracy, court system and constitution not robust enough? Do these countries seek confirmation/approval from India about the fairness of their judicial system? Seems to me that the ghost of colonial mentality is alive and well in these thoughts you express, though I’m willing to be proven wrong on it.
37 >>>>”…But the fool obtained her not, like a Sudra failing to obtain the audition of the Vedas.”
Sudra is a person with predominantly sudra characterstics, which are – lack of discerning ability, lack of interest in intellectual exertion, lack of interest in seeking higher truths, tendency to indulge in sensual pleasures, tendency to hold on to bigoted views etc. Such people naturally do not get the meaning of the Vedas.
That is why it is said that Vedas should be given to only Brahmanas.
Brahmanas, by contrast are the people who show predominantly Brahmana characterstics such as discerning ability, willingnes to intellectual exertion and constantly seeking higher truths.
Every person has each guna, the Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamo, in different proportions that tend to color his character towards one of the four Varnas- Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vyshya or Sudra.
There are different ways recommended for spiritual evolution for each Varna ( Varna Dharma ).
>>>>>>”As the low-born seeks the Veda, soiling it with impure breath, Sisupala sought my consort, ….”
When a Sudra comes across Vedic truths, he is unable to comprehend the meaning of the Vedas, and he misperceives it, his understanding of the Vedic truths is soiled by his ignorance and delusion.
The Varnas are not hereditary. It is evident from the fact that Sri Krishna himself is a Yadava, a shepherd, an OBC by present standards and a Sudra, as per the proponents of today’s caste system.
But the ignorant fail to see this truth. Tamas clouds their minds.
>>>>”…There is no need to feel guilty for the sins of our forefathers.”
Are you referring to the ‘original sin’ of your forefather , the line your friendly neighbourhood Padre has been feeding you, or the line that british Padres fed during their raj ?
>>>>”God bless you! ”
You too.
Sri Krishna said-
“ Seated in the hearts of all beings, I am the begining , the middle and the end of all beings.“- Bhagavad Gita Ch.10
King Vikramaditya, I have seen through your disguise.
I am enlightened! And the admixture of the gunas, obviously, has never been judged to be a part of the genetic code. In the good old days, men were watched by society till their propensities were discerned, and then allotted the caste that suited them most. And then we would decide if they were worthy of Vedic knowledge. Now I understand. And somebody the other day was saying that the Shudra also embodied the virtue of service ( obviously, now, not selfless, going by the characteristics ascribed to his kind).
A little bit of soul-searching, once in a while? The reason we did not have inter-caste strife in Kerala was that a good portion of the people fighting for social justice, at least in the beginning, were from the upper castes. If you check up, say for instance, the Vaikom Satyagraha and see the names that come up, I feel that you would be convinced of this. Even Communists like EM Sankaran Nambuthiripad (Brahmin by birth) and AK Gopalan (Nair by birth) cut their political teeth as Congress satyagrahis at this venue.
And a little bit about the original sin. This is an old myth, borrowed from the myth of Prometheus. The underlying theme is restriction of knowledge. For with knowledge comes suffering, and We know what is better for the sheep. Ring a bell somewhere? Some sects in Christianity even saw Lucifer as a fore-runner of the Christ, who was a much-needed replacement for the jealous Zeus model that the Greeks forgot to invent. (Sidhhartha was also kept away from knowledge by his father, albeit for other reasons.) Some people should not be given knowledge, for they might not be able to bear the burden. Some people should not be given knowledge, for they are incapable of comprehending it. Teacher, unless you let me fall down a few times, how will I learn to walk?
@ Kaffir
Indian does not need any approval from the leading powers of the world, but it would set a very high example about the impartiality of the system, given the inherent animosity between India and pak. It would be better to showcase a process of Indian judiciary which is fair and just, so that no one can doubt the process or let alone be part of rumour mill.
@ Harapriya
Founding father of Independent India and Indian constitution is not just one person, i mean here the leading men/women who were part of the decision making process.
Ashwin, you’re assuming that others (or Pak) actually give two hoots about India setting a high example that will satisfy them. And your comment still doesn’t answer the basic question and you’ve danced around it – why does India need to set a high example? To appease or please whom? I’m sure you’re familiar with the report that came out a while ago, about what’s taught in Pakistani schools (and is part of their curriculum) about India.
BTW, do you care about Pakistan setting a high example which would justify a quid pro quo from India? Do you criticize them for their abysmal performance on the issue of law and order, when Dawood Ibrahim is given sanctuary in their country?
@Kaffir,
Well said. Pakistan to use a blunt analogy is basically a whore who pimps out to the highest bidder, be it Saudi, US or China. India does not have to prove its morality to a whore or any other pimp. (Shantanu, sorry could not find a better analogy. If you find a better one, please replace it.).
@Ashwin,
Your thoughts are right, but the audience is wrong. India’s example of judiciary excellence should be made to disbelievers inside the country, not the people outside.
Once the people inside believe then they will not be lead astray by those preaching from the outside.
@ Kaffir and DD
It is not to appease anyone. It is to showcase our strength and impartiality. If not for anyone, it is also an opportunity to display one of the institutional strengths of India.
As for DD’s point on to showcase in within to the muslim population, i dont think they need a showcase as they are as indian as any other Indian.
@Ashwin,
Why do you believe the minorities within India are being mislead? This is not Pak where they can be easily brainwashed. Most people outside think they are a natural part of Indian society. But in actuality a lot of the younger generation based on various factors like the Babri Masjid, various riots(right or wrong) have developed an insecurity and a victim complex.
How does showcasing our impartiality to the outside world help when people inside do not believe it?
40 >>>>”…For with knowledge comes suffering,…”
Delusion
>>>>>”Some people should not be given knowledge, for they might not be able to bear the burden.”
Knowledge is burden ?
>>>>”Teacher, unless you let me fall down a few times, how will I learn to walk?”
A realised Teacher discerns what is correct for each student.
He does not try to teach a duck to fly like an eagle, nor an eagle to swim like a duck.
Each person has a purpose in life. And he is equipped through talents, abilities and temperament to meet that purpose best.
A true Teacher realises the potential of each student and guides him in the correct path.
@ DD
I am not saying they are misled, I only mean that the process is fair for everyone. This assumes significance becaue the muslims outside India, take the name of Indian muslims and have often said “we are fighting for the sake of indian muslims”. Recently Mushraff made similar comments but was strongly castigated by the audience and leading muslim authors for trying to divide the internal fabric of india.
Tavleen Singh on dynastic politics:
@Ashwin,
I guess we go back to the original point where the establishment of the locus of control for India is important.
Within Pakistan, as explained in this blog and others, the students are being severely brainwashed into studying a very Goebbelsian Islamic version of the truth.
India’s show of a fair justice system will probably be whitewashed by those in power there as they have done so far.
How do you expect them to learn the truth?
@ DD
I am not as disheartened as you mention, may be because of my optimistic veiw and also i am sure friends like you, shantanu and others would join me and others like us to create a new Indian leadership to take our country to the next generation.
Re. my comment @ #12, here is a partial list of schemes named after the “family”:
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=9084&SKIN=B
@Shantanu (#51)
As always the namesake Gandhi-s have started a trend of Self Glorification just like they have done it for Monarchy, Dynastic Rule & Nepotism. In new trend it’s them, Mayawati and now Mamta Banerjee.
http://www.dailypioneer.com/198719/Capital-khabar.html
Sidharth Mishra says,
“The Railways artwork has all of a sudden taken a liking for flowers and they are prominently displayed in its literature. The change has been very visible ever since Mamata Banerjee has been at the helm of the Railway Ministry. The reason for the same is not far to seek. No it’s not that the Minister has liking for any particular kind of flower. If she has, at least she has not made a public show of it. It’s another matter the flowers in the artwork bear a close resemblance to Trinamool Congress’ poll symbol.”
Sad. Truly sad. Thanks for bringing to my attention Satyabhashnam.
Further to comments at #10 and #12 above…
Excerpts from: More privileged than others by A Surya Prakash:
On March 13, 2009, I had drawn the attention of the Election Commission of India to the unfair advantage accruing to the Congress because of the naming of Central and State Government schemes and programmes after icons of that party. Since a majority of the schemes of the Union Government are named after just three members of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, I had said that there could never be a level playing field for all political parties unless this process was reversed. I had urged the commission to issue a direction to the
Government to ensure that the nomenclature of public schemes and programmes remained politically neutral.
The main points made in this letter to the Chief Election Commissioner and the legal issues involved were discussed in articles published by this newspaper at that time. On the first anniversary of this complaint, I am constrained to inform readers that I have not received any communication from the commission until now.
Although hundreds of crores of rupees are spent to run this key constitutional body, the Election Commission obviously lacks discipline, the democratic temper and basic manners to write back to
citizens who raise substantive issues.
…
State Governments too have been vying with each other to name programmes after these three members of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty. For example, children in Pondicherry are expected to remember Rajiv Gandhi whenever they have breakfast, the poor in Andhra Pradesh must remember him whenever they use their health insurance card and farmers in that State who are into calf-rearing must remember his mother. In Haryana, poor women must remember Mrs Indira Gandhi at the time of marriage because the shagun paid out of the public exchequer to them comes in her name.
…The entire list of 450 schemes, programmes, scholarships, institutions and sports trophies named after these three members of the Nehru-Gandhi family is on my website http://www.asuryaprakash.com.
I requested the Election Commission to issue directions to the Union
Government and to all the Governments in the States to remove the names of individuals, who are seen by the people as icons of specific political parties, from all programmes and schemes funded by the public exchequer.
I said such a direction would also ensure enforcement of the model code of conduct in letter and spirit. The code prohibits even minor misdemeanours like misuse of Government vehicles and personnel by the ruling party during an election, yet it allows the Congress to hijack almost every Government scheme and name schemes worth over Rs 1 lakh crore after just three members of a single family who are icons of the party!