Open Thread to discuss Elections 2009
Hurried post starting with some highlights from the results/early indications of 2009 Lok Sabha polls.
Left’s nationwide tally might be reduced to 25, scripts worst performance in West Bengal
Lok Janshakti Party supremo and Union Minister Ramvilas Paswan trails behind nearest ruling JD(U) rival and former chief minister Ramsunder Das . Sad considering Paswan’s earlier record of win by the largest margin in history of Indian elections.
Shashi Tharoor wins in Thiruvananthapuram. This is good news (in spite of my ideological differences with Sh Tharoor)
The BSP was the only party to have contested all the 543 seats across the country, but apart from the state (Uttar Pradesh), its leads were limited to one seat each in Himachal Pradesh Madhya Pradesh.
and my favourite, Sh Amar SIngh-ji:
“We’ll bargain for best ministries this time
“Why support Congress? What if we get the numbers good enough to lead the government? Why does nobody ask Congress if it will support Mulayam Singh as PM?” asked Singh.
.
Please feel free to share your thoughts/comments etc below. Please be mindful of my comments modoration policy. No personal abuse please.
All related posts here:
More to come.
Well, well, well …. Naveen Patnaik sweeps Orissa. The BJP gets 1 seat? What has Ashok Singhal to say now, after the threats that he made to Naveen Patnaik last year? Where is he hiding now?
Time for some introspection for the BJP, eh?
To me the message is clear, if the BJP wishes to win in India, it will have to shed the sangh parivar and stand on its own as a political party. The fanatics – the VHP, Bajrang Dal, etc – especially have to be cast aside.
Cheers
@8 Patriot
May be you should read this…
http://www.lkadvani.in/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5363&start=0
Just heard that JP (Loksatta) has won from his constituency in AP.
This is GREAT news for everyone involved in political reform/ activism efforts!
Congratulations to the Loksatta team.
Related Post:
Food, Politics and some fund-raising
While many would like the paint communalism as a reason for BJP losing I see a more ominous sign. BJP except for Rajasthan hasnt done worse than last time, but hasnt gained from other regional parties. In Orissa it is more of a lack of BJP leadership that affected, not the riots. Please note how exaggerated the riot was portrayed to be, even people who didnt die were reported as dead.
The policy of appeasement is working – 1 Re rice, free land, etc etc. In addition goondaism has worked pretty well, for instance in TN people were given money to vote. The other ominous sign, involvment of church, imams and missionaries in deciding who their flock must vote, fatwas, orders what not. The supression of BJP policy by media only highlighting Ram Mandir issue etc, than giving coverage to their policies- in general a very biased media definitely played a role. A corrupt CEC, and lot of problems with voting machines. I know that for sure cos in my constituency in TN many machines were rigged.
I dont mind who wins, but it does matter how they win, and what they do to win. If this is the trend that the country goes, God Bless India. All ye who complain about RSS, VHP etc, they can do not even 1% harm compared to all above. Sad day for India.
check Elections 2009 Live Results from 16th MAY 2009 8am
http://www.find-guru.com/elections.php
Full constituency results of the elections starts from 16th MAY 2009 8am
Few more hrs to see the results
state wise reports party wise reports and many more …
I agree with Vidhya.
My views: http://satyabhashnam.blogspot.com/2009/05/general-elections-2009-results-shocking.html
I am absolutely shocked and appalled at the verdict that people of Bharat (if its not rigged that is) may have delivered in General Elections 2009. Even more than Verdict of 2004. I could understand that in 2004 they didn’t know how to compare NDA’s comparatively stellar governance to anything else unless they try someone else. So they might have voted Utterly Pathetic Alliance (UPA) led by Muslim-Christian Rightist Congress into power. Just like people of Bihar didn’t know what is development until they voted BJP-JD(U) alliance into power ending LalLoo Yadav’s 15 years dictatorial streak.
But now even when the comparison between NDA and UPA was as stark as a full moon in clear sky. Bharatvaasi have still given over 190 seats to congress even after its ridiculous manifesto, dynastic nepotist politics, worst recession ever in 60 years, Shunya infrastructural development, over 45 major terrorist attacks, no finance minister for 150 days, openly Anti-Hindu stand, divisive policies to destroy and toxify education, devaluation of constitutional bodies, unimaginable corruption, etc.
I mean even one of these issues in any sensible society will be a reason enough to throw out an incumbent government. But no, Bharatvaasi choose to give them almost full majority and less than 100 seats to nationalist BJP.
I am sorry to say but India’s future is doomed. There goes our dream of saving and protecting World’s Historic Ancient Monument & Heritage, an engineering marvel: Shri Ram Sethu.
Sad. Very sad! Truly a Black Day in the contemporary history (post so-called 1947 Independence) of Bharat after Dictatorial Emergency of 1976 imposed by Indira Nehru Feroz Gandhi of the same Congress. But now is the time of Rome Raaj. And the nightmare begins, again.
However, on the other hand, look at it this way. Even if after all these debacles people still voted for Congress triumphantly, then here is another good news for them: Congress’s victory coincides with revelation of first swine flu case in Bharat, in Hyderabad. All the more reason to merry. Right?
But seriously, WE need to continue with our selfless efforts to save Bharat, its history, its culture, its unity and integrity.
UPA agenda for 2009-2014
1. Demolish Ram-Sethu asap, even if it causes financial loss
2. Implement Jerulselem pilgrimage across India, source from temple revenue
3. Ban Amarnath pilgrimage
4. Rename Anantnag to Islamabad, as wished by Mulla
5. Provide (regularize) citizenship to all bangladeshi illegal immigrants and terrorists
6. Hand over Arunachal Pradesh to China
7. Denuclearize India
8. Increase income tax and other taxes
9. Ensure the first right to all resources are provided to muslims
10. Ban RSS and its schools, hospitals, service camps etc
11. Ban VHP and bajrang dhal
12. Arrest all mutt leaders and swamigis
13. Take Tirupati hills properties away from TTD and declare as church property
14. Construct Madarassas across the country and promote islamic education.
Many more
It is amusing to me to see the petulant remarks made by so many posters already!
The people of India have spoken – even if it is not to your liking, you need to respect the verdict. I think the BJP showed a lot of dignity when its spokesperson said we are disappointed by this unexpected verdict but we concede defeat and wish UPA all the best (paraphrased) – this is pretty early in the day, too. I respect that and am prooud of how they handled the verdict.
My key takeaways –
1. The brightest spots for me have been Orissa, Bihar, Bengal and UP – in Orissa (state assembly and Lok Sabha) and Bihar, people have clearly voted for development over all other aspects. In Bengal, I am so, so pleased to see the Left front humbled, even if it is by such a mercurial leader like Mamata. This is a huge, huge event, reversing over 30 years of electoral history in Bengal. In UP, I am thrilled by the return of national parties to significance.
2. Regional parties that have been either promising goodies or just banking on communities have lost – TDP and the TRS are notable examples. But, in general, the only regional parties that have done really well are JD(U) and the BJD, both riding on development.
3. Surprises – Tamil Nadu, where every one was expecting a Jaya sweep. Is Tamil Nadu moving away from its practice of always kicking out the incumbent party? That may be good news.
UP – congress taking 20 odd seats (25% of the kitty) – this is an absolute stunner. Whatever opinion you may have of Rahul Gandhi, the man has delivered.
Regional satraps, Paswan and Laloo, lost from their “safe” seats. WOW!
Rajasthan and MP – significant swings away from the BJP. MP was more surprising, given the recent verdict to Shivraj Chouhan.
Best showing for Congress in over 20 years – looks like they will get to 200 seats on their own. The resurgence of a national party is good, especially given the forecasts.
Conclusions, for now:
1. The BJP is at a cross-road – they have to decide NOW – should they become a hard-core, hindutva-vadi party now or move more to the centre. It is crystal clear to me that it has to choose and can no longer afford to muddle through. Rajnath Singh said that the party missed Vajpayee …. hahahahahaha … what a comedown for this hard-core RSS man and a clear indicator of what path the party must take if it is to remain relevant.
2. Rahul Gandhi vs Narendra Modi – the battle is over before it even began in right earnest. Modi is over. The BJP has to move on … they need to seriously think about Sushama Swaraj as their next national level leader now. Unfortunately, in the male bastion that is BJP, I wonder if this will happen?
3. The Congress is also at the cross-roads, just a more pleasurable one for them – Rahul Gandhi has clearly energised the party, proven his political skill sets in the badlands of UP and attracted the youth vote to the party. The party can either use this proactively by becoming a “better” party or relapse back into Chamchagiri and awe of the high command, which will mean that they slip back into being a decaying party.
4. Is this an inflection point for India – rollback of regional parties?
5. From an economic perspective, this is good news for India – a single party with sufficient number of seats, not dependent on fractious coalition partners, will be better able to push forward better economic policies. Given that attention to economics was zero in the last five years, this will be a big delta for the markets and the economy. This point would have remained the same if it was BJP that had won the 200 seats, rather than the Congress.
Cheers
Patriot
@ Vidhya:
I would like to know how you rig EVMs, which are not networked and coded at a central place using machine language?
It is okay to be disappointed, but not okay to hurl accusations for which you can provide no evidence. If you have evidence that the EVMs were rigged in your constituency, you should have taken your complaints to the EC. Did you do that? And, if you did, what was the response?
If the Left Front, past masters of the gentle art of voters management (!), admit that they can not do so with EVMs, I think this particular debate is closed.
Cheers
@Patriot
Churches, Hindu-Christ ties, mosques and Marathi-Hindi helped gain congress win. Its noting about sangh or related issue. And one more thing there is always next!
@ Indian –
I think you will be surprised at how much disgust there is at the activities of some members of the Sangh parivar – Ram Sene comes to mind, as a recent example.
Please think about this point carefully – the activities of these affiliates alienate the people who can be swayed into voting for the BJP – especially, the urban, educated middle class. Instead, I see these folks now heading for Rahul Gandhi.
There is a group that will vote for the BJP, irrespective of what the affiliates do and many of this group either support or part of the affiliates. This is the core BJP vote bank.
Then, there is a group who will never vote for the BJP unless the BJP proves that it will not cause “religion based divides” – and, this will take a long time, and the group may never be convinced.
And, then there is a group in the middle (to which I belong) who identify with BJP’s policies of strong governance, strong defence and home affairs and liberal economic policies and would vote for them on this basis – BUT, we can not stand the VHP, Bajrang Dal, Ram Sene, etc. We consider these people as bad as the Taliban, to take a slightly exaggerated view, but nevertheless valid.
And, we note that there is now a pattern of these groups becoming VIOLENTLY active in states where the BJP wins and the govt does not take immediate steps to punish these folks – the latest example was the brutish violence in Karnataka.
This is just NOT ACCEPTABLE to the group in the middle – we want to live in an open, civilised society where violent activities by any group is treated equally harshly. And, the BJP has failed us here. So, we do not vote for the BJP. Some move back to the Congress, some do not vote.
Net result – The BJP loses. And, will always lose if it continues on its current path. So, it is really up to the party.
Cheers
@ Indian –
“Next time”
It took the BJP 50 years to come to power at the centre. And, it frittered it away in seven years.
Do you want to wait for another 50 years?
Cheers
Truly BJP is at the cross roads.
BJP did try to do a mid course correction when they got Narendra Modi to the scheme of things, but sadly it seems to have backfired if not damaging.
It is also a end of an era in BJP Politics – for the next election we might not see Advani, Atalji, MM Joshi around (in the sense taking active participation).
The 2nd line leadership of BJP should now decide who from its 2nd rung leaders will lead BJP. If i was part of the RSS think tank i would emphasise on more regional satraps (read their CMs) and oen amongst them could lead the party. The leaders like Sushma Swaraj, Jaitley, Ravi shankar Prasad, Rajiv Pratap Rudy and others to do a supporting role.
All: Thanks for a great discussion…Will add my comments shortly…
In the meantime, pl. read and comment on Ashwin Kumaraswamy’s guest post: India decides on Congress led UPA
1)First of all BJP gets a very bad press . The entire press almost 90% was pro Congress. This area they have to improve.
2) Next, they have to speak less , and when they speak, speak well.
3) They should project more of their youth to the fore. They have in their cadre, but they failed to do so.
4) BJP leaders should not get provoked into a trap of verbal garbage, example Varun Gandhi who is still very young , probably could not control himself ( even though he won) when the unholy incidents happened in his constituency.
He can mature, bit more training is required in delivery of speeches.
Finally why not Varun Gandhi marry a Dalit lady and do complete turaround to what his siblings have done.
Varun marrying a Dalit lady, brilliant. Babasaheb Ambedkar married Savitri , why not Varun do it in return.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/varun-gandhi-denies-sterilisation-remarks/92230-37.html
Dean Nelson first reported something and then later something else. read this. Indo you are right on the press for BJP.
The good things that came out of these results:
1] Decreasing salience of regional parties
2] Clear majority for one party (although I am not a Congress (I) fan)
3] More stable government = good for the economy (broadly speaking, all things remaining same)
***
@ Patriot: Good analysis at #10.
More later.
@Patriot. Part of the problem with the BJP might be that it has consistently disappointed even its base. If I remember correctly, the last time they came to power, it was with promises of a uniform civil code, abolishing special status to Kashmir and yes, the Ram Mandir. None of these were delivered. So maybe the core BJP voters didn’t bother to vote either. People like you think that BJP is prone to Hindutva and people like Radha Rajan feel that it is not nationalistic or Hindu enough. Either way, the BJP loses.
A couple of suggestions for the BJP though.
If they want more flattering media exposure, they need to own a media outlet–yes, newspapers, T.V. etc. (Learn something from the DMK )
They need to do active recruitment of people–in schools, colleges etc. Get the young involved.
They need to start pushing the smartest people in the organization to the front– and focus media attention on them. These will become the public face of the BJP. It is probably easier to make a smart person popular and likable than it is to make a likable person smart.
Finally, they need to STOP trying to be like the Congress i.e all things to all people.
Patriot,
I already said, I dont care if BJP wins or congress, but I do not see the trend going right. Agreed moving away from regional parties and left defeat is a good thing. But cant deny lot of bad things too.
Are u suggesting EVMs are hundred percept fool proof, and fully secure. I would not agree. I know many voters who had to return back since the EVM was rigged, and voting got delayed. Consider with this happening even if the machine is replaced the number of potential votes impacted by long delays. The other problem is voter suppression, many potential voters names have not figured and EC says cant do much last minute. We dont make such things an issue, but these cant be let go easily either.
EVM problems are just one issue I mentioned, u cannot deny others, like media bias, appeasement, enticement. In TN people were given money for voting, and promised money if the party won. Some parties were specifically asked to spoil opposition votes and the money exchanged for such things is atrocious. We have easily forgotten the horse trading just a few months back in open view.
Stability cannot come at a cost of collective values and ethics. If that happens, future isnt bright. I am sorry to say that. Had congress won based on its performance why would I be sad. I dont see BJP doing greatly well either, so either ways is fine. But setting up chamcha CECs etc is not acceptable, and is a dangerous trend.
@ Harapriya: It is probably easier to make a smart person popular and likable than it is to make a likable person smart.
I loved this!
Have probably read more than two dozen analyses of the results by now… Some points that are coming up again and again (specifically re. BJP’s performance) are:
1] The party suffered from overconfidence
2] Message was confused (especially about leadership/PM’s position)
3] There was no credible counter to Rahul Gandhi
What do readers think?
@Patriot. Regarding the rigging of voting machines. Actually this issue came up in the U.S. during the 2004 elections when Diebold voting machines were considered flawed because no matter who one voted for, the vote would go to Bush. The ACLU (a civil rights group) is following this up by framing the lack of a paper trail as a civil rights violation.
Knowing how honest and scrupulous our own politicians are, it isn’t a stretch to wonder if the election was rigged in some places.
For those disgruntled Hindus who feel let down by the BJP, it might be time to realize that the BJP is not our party. We need to form one that actually has no extra baggage of past misdeeds and one that speaks clearly on issues of national interest.
One of the things I do agree with Radha Rajan was the issue of special status to Kashmir. The BJP, by tying that in with a uniform civil code, made sure that neither was implemented. If it had had the foresight to make those two different issues, it could have gotten muslim support for removing the special status to kashmir.
Guys have you noticed one thing. Ever since the ban on simultaneous live Exit Polls reporting from last year Assembly Elections, BJP has been loosing.
@B. Shantanu
Regarding confusing PM message, it was Congress and PM Manmohan Singh himself made this statement to confuse people. No one from the BJP initially said anything about Modi as PM.
The people have spoken. Unfortunately for us educated people, they do not read the English newspapers and listen to the discussions on TV, which are largely irrelevant to them. And they do not follow any wave we want them to follow. Except possibly for Durga Mata and the orphaned lad. And those were exceptions. And there is no way of gaugeing the public mood, as Indira Gandhi found out in 1977. Fortunate for the nation and for the people.
If you look at the individual states, the propensity to choose the lesser evil is evident. Modi, Nitish Kumar, Karunanidhi, Naveen, Sheila Dixit, Gehlot.. The rout of the CPM in Bengal and Kerala is more clear evidence. Behenji, who? Also, the practice of insulting voter intelligence by putting up film stars and the like was duly rebuked, while Shashi Tharoor, a rank outsider, trounced his established rivals in Thiruvananthapuram.
Would that be a sign that the great unwashed and illiterate do know a bit about what they need and want from their servants, who have long since forgotten what they are? That merit does count?
Stumbled on this: Varun Gandhi: Albatross round BJP neck by Sandhya Jain.
Do read in full.
Prescient.
Another article on how EVMs can be rigged.
http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/45296/
To all on EVMs –
The machines used in India use machine language – assemblers, directly at the chip level, which are coded at a central place for each state. This is very different from machines used in the USA or any other place, where higher level (HL) languages are used. The US, after their experience with the hanging chads and some (unproven) questions about the Diebold machines have been thinking about adopting the Indian machines.
Even the article quoted by you, Harapriya, is not evidence but speculation.
Vidhya, if a machine breaks down, to attribute that to malafide intentions seems a bit much to me. I have voted in elections over 20 years, and I have never seen a machine break down myself …. so, that is contrary evidence to you.
And, there have been problems with voters’ lists, across India, after the delimitation – this has affected supporters of all parties, and not just a single party – so, again I fail to see malafide intentions.
If you want to see reds under the bed, I guess you will always do so and a simple matter of evidence will not matter.
Cheers
The re-election of Congress party and the UPA lead coalition is a disturbing news, worrisome, and does not augur well for this country. Expect more catastrophic terrorist attacks, sky high corruption, cronyism and nepotism at all time high, and other social evils pioneered by Congress party since Independence.
This victory of India’s GOP reminds me of Bush’s landslide victory in 2004 election by manipulating media, gullible public about imaginary threats, etc. God save India from these Congress leeches.
@ harapriya , vidhya …
interesting thots on the bjp’s needs and challenges … do u have blogs of ur own ? lemme know …
a few of mine …. ..
1) throughout the public meetings of friendsofbjp … arun jaitley came across as an arrogant, angry and i-know-it-all-and-u-know-nothing kind when he needed to be more humble , smiling and less like a bull dog …… also the meetings were becoming more sycophantic of arun-ji’s amazing intellect being marvelled from one city to another … the elections are not the time for such distractions … that he was not a happy man and felt like he ws doing the party a favour at these meetings was too obvious to miss … friendsofbjp has done well for its first year …
2)for the last time , we are not a presidential democracy … dont waste ur time talking abt one person … focus on the needs of the one billion people , the needs of that one person will be taken care of …
3)an election is not the time to bother ur electorate about who flunked his tenth class , but did not report it … such talk is gr8 for blogs , not for on-the-street-campaigning ….. focus on wht ur electorate wants from u …
4) dont keep whining (bloggers and bjp included) that the media is against u … so wht if everything is against u … atleast u r for urself , rt? .. that is good for starters .. instead of this emotional outrage .. u need to engage the media and every single section of the society that is against u in constant and continuous dialogue .. dont be averse to be seen continuously talking to barkha dutt / prannoy roy / rajdeep/ n ram / communists / imams / evangelicals and the kind … continuously engage them and ask them directly as to why they feel wht they feel about u and make sure u have a 24*7 channel for each one of these … u can differ with them , but u cannot ignore them and hope all will be fine .. that is not how a democracy works .. make them directly and continuously articulate to u wht they feel , ask follow-up questions and get the answer , if u want to be the party with a difference , u need to show it in action …if u wish to be a party for the nation , engage the whole notion, not sections of it ….. u need to be the bridge to get the less organised elemnts of the sangh parivar to come in line and get them to talk to other such religious groups like the imams/parishes/dalits/media …. dialogue is better than rhetoric at any time …. and as for the ram sene/vhp … pls find a way to rehabilitate them with better contemporary education and jobs so they dont need to do these things for a living , they deserve better too , it is important that the bulk of the members can be productive citizens like doctors/lawyers and still be associated with the sangh parivar
5) if not for the innovative efforts towards the end like friendsofbjp and the kind … the loss culd have been worse … now realise that u need to study well year long to do well in the exams at the end … it requires focus and hardwork to do that
6) what is the average age of the bjp face i see .. like 193 yrs old ? u keep saying u have a lot of support among the youth … u harldy show any of the iim/iit grads who like u …
7) is sushma swaraj the only female face u got … get some colour and stimulus into the party .. … just get some female faces yaar …
8] u dont have to be too very polite and formal and maryaadha driven … a lil informal attitude and irreverence can be a good calling card for independent thinkers and youth …
dont confuse sanatana dharma with dating and pre-marital sex … if u can be a brahma gnani while being a vyadha ( butcher) as in the vyadha gita of the mahabharatha , u can also be a gnani even while dating or having pre-marital sex … do not oppose anything purely in the name of religion and tradition as the sanatana dharma sez thru the upanishads , gnana is not dependent on external practices , it is abt wht ur mind is focussed on …
9) work as an ngo in the field and genuinely make sure u uplift families and communities as a whole without expecting anything in return , good deeds never go waste …
10) u have to re-work ur and the sangh parivar’s appraoch to handling injustice in the media/society/politics … u need to come across as firm,non-whining,focussed , persuasive , persevering , dogged , fearless and non-goonda in ur approach… dont have too many people talkin on ur behalf …
11) having a media briefing cell in ur offices doesnt count … u need to have an end-to-end seamless line of human resources from kindergartens to fully functional mainstream media empires .. it is not just about the money but also about developing key competencies in ur people even while they are in the bjp ….
12 ) did ur religious/mutt leaders deliver?
13 ) the late kanchi acharya was once asked how he considered himself a jagad guru when there were so many people who do not recognise his primacy , he sed that to him being a jagad guru didnt mean that he was the guru to the jagad rather jagad guru to him meant that the jagad was his guru ( both interpretations are right , jus depends on how one looks at it ) … it is not a bad idea to start with the notion that u have a lot to learn from EVERY citizen of this great land and this world ….
why is Maneka Gandhi silent ? Why no major role for her in the party? Jinxed or is she told to keep mum
PINOCHET , yes your are right about Bush in 2004. It was also like that in 2008, Obama planned well and went to berlin with Euro media back up. the rest is history.
Has anyone come across a complete list of surprise/unexpected losses in individual constituencies? Below is a partial list:
* Shekhar Suman losses in Patna Sahib (Bihar)
* Ram Vilas Paswan loses in Hajipur (Bihar)
* Manvendra Singh (BJP) loses in Barmer (Rajasthan)
* Janardhana Poojary, Dakshina Kannada, Karnataka
* A.R. Antulay, Raigarh, Maharashtra
* Vinod Khanna, Gurdaspur, Punjab
* Renuka Choudhary, Khammam
Thanks
@ Vivekam: Good points, particularly #4 and #10. I hope they are read and discussed in the right circles.
***
@ All: The link to the article mentioned in comment #28 is now fixed.
@ Disappointed –
The comments in the link are all hearsay, not a single one is a personal anecdote.
And, if such a thing happens, all you have to do is notify the Election officer in the booth, along with the rep of the party you are voting for – how come we never hear of this? And, the Election officer can then stop the casting of further votes at this point in time.
Learn from Mr Advani – concede gracefully.
And, btw, to those who are going on and on about the EVMs, is it your assertion that the entire elections was rigged by the Congress?
If yes, come out and say so … and then prove your assertions.
These type of snide and underhand remarks, without evidence, does not help anyone, least of all, the party that you are supporting.
Cheers
@ vivekam –
super post!
One party that the BJP can take some lessons from is the MNS in Maharashtra – they have attracted a huge gallery of professionals to their party – lawyers, doctors, IT guys, Ad-men, etc – and all young guys, all below 50 years of age, most below 40.
If the Congress itself did not have some very strong youth icons in Mumbai – I think the MNS would have done much better. In any case, it has now written the epitaph for the Shiv Sena – with or without Bal Thackeray’s demise, the party workers will keep moving towards the MNS.
I think demographics is a very important factor – the average age of the country is now below 35, they demand younger leaders at the helm. Time to bid good bye to all the seniors (definitely anyone above 60).
Manmohan Singh said
Muslims will have first claim to resources and then recently forget 1984 Sikh Riots. This was also good strategic statement. Generous to the higher percentage and forgetting the lowest percentage, almost self inflicting and in self denial of his own community.
About BObama going to Berlin and start his campaign, this cannot be appplied to Indian conditions. Congress may be able to do it with its international star cast, but BJP will never be able to it, unless and until their leaders do a la Rajiv Gandhi.
BJP has to go bring the youth to the fore and have more positive say from the media. They have it in their party , but kept them out of limelight.
I agree with Vivek, all points are good and something must be done.
Unfortunately in India if some people whine, they get heard seriously, while if others whine only called whiners. It is tough in this set up to do the right thing. How many times intellectuals whine in front of the west, in front of the foreign commissions, in media etc etc even for small issues. We had posts even here in this blog which calls attention to this selective amnesia several times. It is tough to not think of how this would affect elections.
Agreed RSS, VHP should be more focussed and less petty in cultural issues. But why doesnt it become petty when huge hue and cry happens for some cartoon, or Da Vinci code etc. In such scenarios it is easy to get doubtful and pessimistic.
Intellectual fights, yeh right we know how that is going on. BBC accepts after a long time the Aryan Invasion Theory is false, but NCERT still harps on it, so does lot of intellectuals in India. If you argue you are called communal or hindutwadi. We see lot of that everywhere.
Why is appointment of Navin Chawla not an issue? Why was the open horsetrading during the last trust vote in parliament whoever did it go under the carpet? If media colludes like that does calling media biased amount to whining? What else do u do, setup alternate media – yes definitely an option? Unfortunately I do not have the resources to do that, who is willing to take it up, why hasnt one come up already? We are a divided lot, one more reason for pessimism!!
Regarding EVMs, @Patriot, if in your experience system didnt fail fine, congrats, good to know that. Here it did, and it is true, am not making stories. One doesnt have to rig it completely to make a difference, you think politicians are naive to make blatant mistakes. That is why u argue for proof and accuse us of allegations. All I am doing is raising a concern, cos many things did not add up, and many problems did occur. Whether to take this matter or not I shall decide, but as a citizen I have the right to have my doubts.
And if you are completely confident of our EC, excellent good to have that faith, I have lost it long back.
And also you are harping only on one point of mine, but what about others, freebies, money exchanged, etc etc. Yes yes now that would be strategies, used and what is wrong in that. As i said, fine congress won, what saddens me is the stability at the expense of morality, and values.
Regards
P.S: Those who harp on proof for EVMs when we raise suspicion, I did not see you asking for proof when Varun Gandhi incident occured. He did ask for the CD to be verified? Now this happens within a blog, so even a correct proof can be questioned in India if I happen to be on the wrong side, while even falsities can be made true if I am on the other side!!! Just to show why I dont care to or bother to prove suspicions here, doesnt matter. I have raised a suspicion, lets leave it at that. BJP deserved this loss for their overconfidence and infighting, will teach them a lesson 🙂
@ Vidhya –
If Navin Chawla is an issue, so was the previous CEC (I am unable to recall his name now – Ramaswami?) – every human being has biases, but the EC works on consensus (and at least 2 of the 3 commissioners have to agree). I am really annoyed when the institution of the EC is dragged into petty politicking – the EC has done a fabulous job, since Seshan got it independence and freedom from political meddling – and, even the CEC has been friends of a party, it has never been accused of acting in a biased manner.
So, unless you have prima-facie data that proves bias, I think you should not throw mud on an institution, that has done well for India.
RE: Freebies, cash dole outs – from the reports that I read in the Indian Express, every single party seems to have done this in TN and AP – maybe, the quantum differed in each consitutency, I don’t know. But, I do believe that our voters may take money from each party, but then they vote their own selfish interests within the closed doors of the voting booth – and if this expression of interest co-incides with a party you do not agree with, that is the way it goes.
There is a step that you can take as a citizen – for Re. 1, you can ask the EC office in your area to furnish the accounts of spending that have been done by each candidate. According to our laws, they have to give you this information and then if you have evidence of unaccounted spending, you can file a lawsuit asking for the winning candidate to be disqualified under electoral malpractice rules.
And, then if you really want to participate in changing India, do have a look at http://www.freedomteam.in – I am sure we will welcome you to our ranks.
Cheers
Varun Gandhi was only accused, after the CD of his speech surfaced – not before. And, Varun, in his defence, asked for verification of the CD contents. If I remember correctly, the CD was found to be accurate.
So, what is your point, Vidhya? That you should be free to make accusations without being able to support/prove your point?
Cheers
Some information on EVMs:
http://eci.nic.in/faq/evm.asp
Is it possible to program the EVMs in such a way that initially, say upto 100 votes, votes will be recorded exactly in the same way as the `blue buttons’ are pressed, but thereafter, votes will be recorded only in favor of one particular candidate irrespective of whether the `blue button’ against that candidate or any other candidate is pressed?
Ans. The microchip used in EVMs is sealed at the time of import. It cannot be opened and any rewriting of program can be done by anyone without damaging the chip. There is, therefore, absolutely no chance of programming the EVMs in a particular way to select any particular candidate or political party.
I’ve written my 2cents in my blog. To put it briefly, this is something I’ve been saying for a very long time (although I didn’t expect a Congress surge like this).
Briefly put, BJP today is neither the secular party in the minds of secular or minorities people, nor is it a pro-Hindu in the eyes of the rest. Even to me, BJP seems to be using Hindutva to make petty gains. MMS has the guts to put forward its policy – Muslims have the first right. Advani keeps mumbling something on pseudo-secularism. The result is in front of us – the loss of SP became the gain in Congress UP.
Of course, the media will lose no time blaming the debacle on Varun/Modi – that will ensure that Congress remains the secular party, and BJP keeps running after it – forever!
There are other reasons that I discuss in my blog, but the secular divide, I think, is the main reason.
@ vidhya and Patroit
Neither was CEC an issue or the EVM. Though CEC is responsible for conducting elections, they are increasingly dependent on the state ECs to deliver them the elections. ECs names are proposed by the respective state governments and they are the ones who deliver the elections. Hence they are a non issue.
@ Shantanu
What is interesting in these elections is Gujrat and Karnataka are the only major states which has sent BJP MPs hands down. This is a worrying factor for Karnataka, as BJP/RSS has beeing trying to replicate their Hindutva model as they did in Guj in Karnataka and this elections has clearly paved the way for caste based elections.
Janardhana Poojary, Bangarappa, Jaffar Sherrif all lost and they have been at various times development oriented, mass based leaders and also have eposued the name of secularism. The only logic answer for their loss is the brute money power that BJP used and the vote in the name of caste, which led to their down fall.
For E.g in Bangarappa case where Yeddyurappa’s the BJP CM’s son haad contested and eventualaly elected, BJP spent nearly 100cr?? where has this money come from. When i spoke to Bangarappa before and after elections he had clearly made a point, i dont have the money power to match them, hence will be banking on personal appeal….but as the saying goes “money is sexies than anything eventually prevailed”
@ Ashwin –
The BJP spent Rs100cr on one seat???? Where is this data coming from? Does this not seem excessive? For one seat?!
Also, if I remember correctly, all the iron ore mine owners (Bellary) in Karnataka are BJP politicos?
“Varun Gandhi was only accused, after the CD of his speech surfaced – not before. And, Varun, in his defence, asked for verification of the CD contents. If I remember correctly, the CD was found to be accurate.
So, what is your point, Vidhya? That you should be free to make accusations without being able to support/prove your point?”
Well well, no, even before the CD was being verified, there was lot of accusations and verdicts from everyone, why wasnt that questioned? My point is not that of proof, but that of truth gets blurred easily in this country. How many people in India file a case (I mean normal people), even if they have proof, or seen wrong doing? They know it doesnt matter if u dont matter? In India lot of things get overlooked in technicalities. IF EVMs couldnt be tampered with why were there errors, and hence delays? Even you have quoted technicalities for voter roll name removal? You ask for proof when it suits u, and dont when it doesnt, and this is true of lot of people! This has been the case for lot of issues. Truth and falseness is just terms,it gets easily manipulated in this day, and cant deny it.
Yes perhaps linking EVM problems to the result is an over arching generalization and I accept that was uneccessary, but having concerns about that and voter roll problems is not just throwing accusations for the sake of it. I know people who registered to vote, but finally their names didnt figure, when asked “last minute cant do much”- again technicalities!! About the EC FAQ, yeh right, even Windows is supposed to be very stable!!!
So dont talk of throwing accusations, cos thats my main issue. When it matter people ask for proof and what not, other times it doesnt matter, the verdict is freely given.
I will raise another issue, whoever is talking of proof, can you prove it was fool proof election either? All these CEC, state EC difference etc does not matter. Even if states rigged it, it is wrong.
Anyways currently it looks like people are ready to blankly declate EC and EVMs as non issues, and other issues are easily brushed off. I will stop with this, will take it up later. Will not comment further on it.
Cheers
@ Patriot
You are perfectly correct that the mining lobby of BJP hails from Bellary. But the 100cr (have no proof to substaantiate) is not just money, it is a combination of money, liquor, free bees doled out in Shimoga dist of Karnataka where B Y Raghavendra, the son of BJP CM Yeddyurappa has been elected.
There is enough proof during the elctions Congress and JD(S) workers identified illicit liquor being distributed by BJP to EC, but the state EC did not take any actions. Also there are enough evidence when you speak to people from Shimoga they would clearly say this elections saw money power and goondaism being played out for the first time in Shimoga in the last 60yrs.
The only negative the electroate of Shimoga say about S Bangarappa who lost the elction by 50,000 votes is his bad health and age, which was an issue which BJP exploited. Apart from that the electroate of Shimoga has aleays been sympathetic towards Bangarappa. This elections the BJP misters went around abusing the money power and onw minister also asked his security gaurd to fire in the air to disperse a crowd who obstructed him distributing liquor.
Also karnataka is been seing vote for BJP in the name of caste. Comming from the same caste as Yeddyurappa – i feel disgusted. Sadly 60% of the karnataka electroate does not think so.
Oh ya! Congress for seven times five years=35 years, served illicit liquor, money and false hopes in Div, Daman and Silvasa. Adivasis, Patel and Rajput who are in Baxipanch in Div, Daman and silvasa seats. Specially youth, who hardly read news papers and television, those who don’t know the ABC’s of politics were happy with the money they were getting to vote Congress. It is for the first time BJP is elected there. ‘Adivasi’s were so well trained that they only know one party that is congress who gave independence, all other parties are bad same as britishers. Now it is biggest victory for coming out of the false hopes dilivered by congress Mr. Mohan Delkar. Till I dont trust this Goonda Raj. Anything can happen in coming years.
You ask me I will give you detail info of Adivasi’s of Rajpipla, Bharuch and many tribal region of Gujarat, which was wooed from the time of Indira Gandhi by money and liquor. Their hopes where diliverd by Christians Missionaries and schools. As a result Gujarat got chief minister one from Adivasi community another from Rajput community and they did nothing in the state by keeping Gujarati’s out from the National interest. Votes were misguided as the vote of Hindu as they keep the name and last names of Hindus.
Same goes in present time too, with other part of India where Rahul Gandhi wooed tribes of India. He even took Mr. Milliband this time. Same trend, nothing new.
@ shantanu , patriot , vidhya
thnx for the comments …
i have posted the same here at http://www.lkadvani.in... hope u can bump it and comment there to so it can be read ….
http://www.lkadvani.in/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5453
I don’t know why people think that Sushma Swaraj or Arun Jaitley are the smart people that the BJP needs to bring to the front. Actually after hearing Jaitley a couple of times I realized that he is merely marginally more coherent that Jaswant Singh (whom I never understood anyway since he used to mumble). As for Sushma, wasn’t she the one who wanted to ban fashion shows and thought that fashion TV was detrimental to Indian youth ( or some such nonsense).
The only person in the BJP who was not a career politician and was actually successful outside of politics is Arun Shourie and he is right now the most, if not the only , eloquent spokesperson the BJP has. But he is also in his sixties. The BJP if it wants to be different, needs to stop trying to compete with the Congress in trying to form a personality cult around one person.
Here is an article by Radha Rajan on BJP’s problems.
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=582
@ Indian
I am not saying other parties in previous ocassions have not made use of money power and used illicit means. I just shared one example of a particular constituency…and also gave an example of how expensive these elections have become.
On onde side we have Advani saying get the black money from Swiss bank and on the other hand there is a BJP CM who has used everything in the book to take a sweet revenge on his political adversary by getting his son elected Also the quantums of money used is very large!!!
@ Vivekam Vairagyam and others
I had raised few issues on the blog of LK Advani and Ananth Kumar – they were not addressed let alone they were pulled out from the website and next time i could not post any comments.
Some of of the questions i had raised had pointed out few contradictions on what BJP preached and practised especially in Karnataka.
Also on the issue of getting blacl money from Swiss banks, team Advani went a step further in their press conference to say Indians should not deposit money in foreign banks rather they should do so in Indian banks…that i though was strange. They also seemed to assume that money that has been invested by Indians outside india most of them was black money (some thing to that extent, i am trying to recollect what i heard in the press conference) – i was trying to highlight them that there are enough measures in European and American economies to check money laundering.
A professor in a religion department in an U.S. university once said to me that it would be interesting to see how Hindus would treat a baptized Catholic ruling them. I naively thought he was referring to Priyanka Gandhi at the time (year 1998) and felt that was a particularly troublesome remark since Christians constitute a minority in India and even the U.S. would never countenance a non-Christian as leader.
Little did I know then that we would be ruled by an Italian born woman. Whether Indians and especially Hindus realize it or not, the rest of the world understands this move for what it is. It is the dismantling of a Hindu India, just as the Korean war was the dismantling of a Buddhist Korea.
I think in my lifetime we will see the decrease of the Hindu popluation in India to around 50 or at the most 60 percent, and we will be rendered without a Hindu voice. Yes there will be those nominal Hindus who form the Congress and Communist parties, but they too will never support Hindu rights.
We might even see further dismemberment of India along religious lines.
@K.Haripriya
Thanks for sharing this here. The same thoughts are going in my mind from several days. Well said. Why I think like this, not because of any likeness for Hindutva agenda but the way politics is being played in India. Church mandate to vote Congress, Mosque mandate to vote member of their community or congress. See how congress ruling in Maharashtra, let 2 brothers fight in the street on the name of regionalism and did nothing. Did anyone heard single word from congress CM, PM or Sonia Gandhi?. Where were they when innocents were killed and threatened? Rahul, said something but very late after the issue settle down that also just 2 words. This is one such example of politics of votes being played by Congress in Maharashtra.
Hare Krishna.
Post 32
” It requires focus and hardwork”.
Yes, this was what our founder said. Do not react , but be focussed. He used to say ” Whenever , there is opposition, that means you are being noticed. Success will be there. Just do your work focussed, calmly and feed the world”
The amount of bad press we have got all over the world , runs into pages and can be described in volumes and volumes.
But as Post 32 said , focus and hardwork we maintained. Our work has been in many war torn areas and in the recent Katrina deluge was recognised , again because of focus and hardwork without attachment. The Nishkamakarma atitude has made Hare Krishna movement a great surviving movement. Everybody in the press, dismissed us that we will not last long. The resistance we had in Russia ( it is still there) has brought in largest number of followers from that region. This was due to focus and hardwork. We do not count our aherents, but many say after India it is Russia, which has the largest number of Hare Krishna followers. Here is a neutral web site which presents an advt of Hare Krishna in Russia ( The web site says it is hilarous, we did not react to this at all, Why react? it is no use. You will loose your focus and your work will suffer). There are some good remarks written in response to the advt. One mentions about our hardwork in Katrina and the write up about our large following in Russia. There is a final remark esp the last line which we take in our stride and do not react.
Here is the web site
http://buckdogpolitics.blogspot.com/2009/02/russian-hare-krishna-tv-ad.html
India is the country which gave the world, Nishkamakarma and so many wonderful things to the world. Somwhere in between, Indians have gone of the rails and become reactive to actions and lost their focus and doing hardwork. Most of the Indian scriptures I have read have stressed on focus and hardwork. For example even the Gods in India left their home and study in Ashrams. Lord Rama went to Vishwamitra’s ashram and Lord Krishna to Avanti to Rishi Sandipani Ashram to study.
You just compare any of the ashram going God aspect to any scriptures anywhere in the world . You will never get this. If anyone comes across any reference counter to this claim, please post it here.
We were once serving food in one of your leading institutes which called the IIT. Most of the students lived in in what you call hostels. I would like to call it like the ashrams of the yore. In these institutes, the students were so focussed , that hardwork came to them naturally.
Basically even Gods in India went to ashrams for the right focus. This is truly one the greatest concepts given to the world by India to be trained to be focussed and do hard work.
Just be focused and do hard work , feed the people well. Let not some external influences make you reactive and make you less active.
Hare Rama , Hare Krishna
Hare Krishna
We meet resistance in all countries , even in India.
For an Indian , who has been in the faith for centuries , may find the opposition to faith had to read , as their strategies are not straightforward, but always starts with peppermint talks.
The advantage a western Hare Krishna has , is that he or she knows the strategies of those who oppose us, as we have dipped ourselves in the opposition’s strategies, which is sometimes outright disgusting. This definetely helps us in understanding the opposition, which many Indians may find it difficult to adjust to as they have not lived in the opposition’s faith for a long time.
The best alternative . Be focussed and workhard as SriLa Prabhupada said.
@ Krishnadas
Great.
@Krishnadas
Thanks for sharing this with us. Great!
One good news is Communists failed miserable in both of their states. They failed worse than BJP. The communist ideology and politics looks like not impressing people of India any more.
You should look at Brinda Karat’s and Yetchury’s faces..lol, they were almost crying after all these 3rd front hypes.
But as Sri Advaniji said, Third front really doesn’t exist now.
Well, Like everyone else in TN, our family got total Rs.4500 for 9 votes in TN from DMK. Extra income during this recession does help.
Oh ya, I’m sure EC is doing a great job. Keep it up.
Hare Krishna Prabhu! I am the owner of the blogsite that you mentioned with the Russian Hare Krishna advert and I want to apologize to you if I have offended you in any manner.
I have been in Krishna Temples many times and have nothing but the deepest fondness for the work that the disciples of Swami Prabhupada continue to do around the world. I have change the wording of my story in an attempt that you will not consider my item as being offensive to the Vaishnava devotees.
Vancha-kalpa tarubhyas cha
krpa-sindhubhya eva ca
patitanam pavanebhyo
vaishnavebhyo namo namah
Hare Krishna!
Hare Krishna
A verse from Gita
Yata samharato chayam
Koormon ga niva sarvasha
Indriyan indriya tebhya
Tasya prakya partishtita
In English
Just as a tortoise withdraws its limbs, he is able to withdraw, at will, his sensory perception from running amok into the outside world. He has a steady mind.
Be focussed and work hard. Food for life. STITAPRAGYA atitude. Post 64 . No problems. No offence. Just feed humans.
Continuing the list from comment # 34:
I think, the verdict was strongly in favor of the congress and not an anti NDA verdict. So, they won and handsomely. BJP should now try and analyse if they really have the strength to handle the resurgent congress.
Pls also read my thoughts on the same.
http://hindustatement.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/election-postmortem/
It is a strong verdict for Congress. Barring DMK and Trinamol the other allies of Congress have been mediocre.
DMK – again rode on the issue of freebies that it dolled out as part of last assembly elections and let Congress candidates take the burnt on the Lankan issue.
Trinamool – Mamata would not have made the dent in the left fortress had she not had the logistical support and also the Central govt led by Dr. Singh backing her.
NCP – it could have done better, but Sharad Pawar two pronged stratergy did not work and aldo it took a beating in selection of candidates.
AP, UP and Rajastan tilted the favour towards Congress, which has been revived in the hindi heartland.
I would say the loosers of this elections are states like Bihar, Karnataka and Gujrat – who contributed heavily to NDA numbers, they did not see UPA comming for variety of reasons. Except Bihar where the vote was for change and 3.5yrs is a small time for change and hence they persisted rightly with Nitish Kumar. Guj and Karnataka were misled by their respective CMs where, Modi mainntained his strangle hold and Yeddyurappa once again successfully went around asking votes in the name of caste and (mis)used the mining money power.
Stumbled across you web site. Visited India during election time. Phew , it is a celebration of democracy. I am a devotee of Ramana Maharishi , so my mumerous visits to India.
Read thru this site, #57 comments is interesting. ” How Hindus would treat a baptised Catholic ruling them” . This remark takes me back to history to Italy Bologna. Here are the sites . please go thru them . They are all true stories.
http://www.davidkertzer.com/en/books/kidnapping_of_edgardo_mortara.html
Bologna, 1858: A police squad, acting on the orders of the Inquisitor, invades the home of a Jewish merchant, Momolo Mortara, wrenches his crying six-year-old son from his arms, and rushes him off in a carriage bound for Rome. His mother is so distraught that she collapses and has to be taken to a neighbor’s house, but her weeping can be heard across the city.
……………………………………………
The fate of this one boy came to symbolize the entire revolutionary campaign of Mazzini and Garibaldi to end the dominance of the Catholic Church and establish a modern, secular Italian state. A riveting story which has been remarkably ignored by modern historians”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_Affair
Edgardo Mortara (August 27, 1851 – March 11, 1940) was a Jewish boy and a Roman Catholic priest who became the center of an international controversy when he was seized from his Jewish parents by authorities of the Papal States and taken to be raised as a Catholic. The seizure of the boy followed his emergency baptism by a domestic servant during a serious infantile illness”
read the two web sites and see its relevance to #57. This true story created a revolution in Italy and that is how the Vatican became a separate country. All must read this gripping novel on the kidnapping.
Will continue later. Thanks
The CDF is the modern name for what used to be the Holy Office of the Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith
and In 1981, Pope Bendict settled in Rome when he became Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith CDF, one of the most important offices of the Roman Curia.
Details here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
The kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara resulted in disbanding the Holy office of inquisition and then given a new name , CDF on the 1940’s . You have a new name, but….. It is difficult to elaborate further. Fill in the gaps.
Indians must surf the web and read about all this. Indians must expand their knowledge about this , so that you can discriminate between the real and unreal. #57 , You must read these books as indicated in my earlier scribble. They are available on amazon.
@Ashwin Kumaraswamy
Just to clarify from my side. When I said Adivasi and Rajput CM of Gujarat in past, I didn’t meant to sound caste wise but they both were raised by Congress and remained as puppet of Congress. When I said vote of Hindu, because many times people argues 80%hindu and 20% minority country. Its misinfo that its 80% Hindu Country. Many are christians but taking all the benifits of Tribals by keeping their Hindu names.
@patriot
In comment #10.
I am in quest. As you know I want to learn politics.
—And, we note that there is now a pattern of these groups becoming VIOLENTLY active in states where the BJP wins and the govt does not take immediate steps to punish these folks – the latest example was the brutish violence in Karnataka.—
What step Congress took to punish MNS Raj Thackerey?
@Patriot, what did Congress do in Hyderabad when Ms. Nasreen was physically threatened by members of its ally MIM for promoting her book? What did Renuka Chowdhury say about women’s rights and how many “secular” activists sent pink chaddis to Owaisi? Where were the vocal supporters of MF Hussain with their naare-baazi of threats to freedom of expression?
If violence in Karnataka and Orissa bothered you, then by the same token, what happened to Ms. Nasreen should bother you too, no? 🙂
That threat of violence to Ms. Nasreen was done by Indians, and the act goes against our wonderful culture and tradition of respecting and welcoming guests, and bringing out the red carpet for them. Unless you have reason to believe that these particular Indians are somehow lesser Indians and should be left alone instead of engaging them, and allowed to do whatever they want, even if it damages the so-called secular fabric – or whatever is left of it after Congress’s misapplication – of India.
Picking-and-choosing facts can lead one to any viewpoint one desires, as long as it conforms to one’s pre-existing bias regarding a political party.
Let’s also get one thing clear – there’s no such thing as secularism in practice in India. And Congress is no champion of secularism.
……….things are much more dynamic now .. u cannot hope to make do with a one-policy-fits-all attitude ….
[b]the bjp needs to get rid of the opposition mentality , its job is to provide a viable ALTERNATIVE for all indians , and not an opposition, if it wants to form the government ….[/b]
The significant difference between the exit polls and the actual result brings a lot of doubt to my mind about their being possibility of rigging of EVMs. There is a huge debate in the international community that EVMs can be rigged very easily and hence are not allowed for voting. Why would the US still rely on ballot paper if EVMs were so safe? Why would Ireland discontinue electronic voting.
Yes, EVMs cannot be rigged at the local level but they can be manipulated in a mass. Considering the length of codes for each machine is it so infeasible that some of the code actually delivers votes to one party based on some logic.
And since these are made by companies, with a small group of people responsible for the actual coding. Is it so outlandish to be able rig a voting machine?
In 2004 there was a similar trend, the ground realities said that the NDA was in total upswing, while what actually happened was that the congress got more seats. And 2004 was the first election with a substantial number of EVMs used. And 2009 was all EVMs and a result which was so startlingly different from all projections.
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as for the EVM s …. i will hold the bjp responsible if they lost coz of evm rigging ….. hey , welcome to the real world … no one is gonna hand-over the power to rule a billion people on a platter ,not least the current group of people u r fighting against …. so if u were not prepared to counter potential EVM and /or other election frauds , may be u dont deserve to win …. which only means that all ur trumpetting of the sanatana dharma and all is empty noise and u havent learnt anything from how krishna met deceit with deceit …. learn to get the job done with flair and style instead of having to crib like a helpless kid …… we dont live in a perfect world , if u didnt already know that ….
@Ashwin Kumaraswamy
dude …. i gotta give to you for ur loyalty to the kaangress … i hope they get to notice ur desperation to fight for the party , well demonstrated by ur “focussed critiques ” …
gud luk …. 😉
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Chamcha hu me , aab mujhe time hai, blog karne.
Ek din jaab mai aa aab laut chale kahunga
Dikhauga boss ko , kaisa ki Chamchagiri blog me.
” Wah !! Wah!! Boss bolega ” young man baan jao neta”
Nahi boss , mujhe business karna hai, kahega lautaya hua dil.
Rajniti bhi ek business hai beta kahega boss.
Acha , phir hum agaye hai, samjho, jeeth aa gayi hai.
Excellent analysis.
Teeno doob gaye, paar dooba diya nayya ko bhi saath me.
Cong has Raj, superstars to thank for extra seats
New Delhi: The Congress-led UPA has three men to thank for its seat surge in the 2009 Lok Sabha polls: Raj Thackeray, Chiranjeevi, and Vijayakanth. They helped the victorious alliance win nearly 50 more seats in Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, and Tamil Nadu than anyone would have expected, as a result of which the UPA ended up with 262 seats, against the 222 it won in 2004.
The big story is in Andhra Pradesh, where matinee idol Chiranjeevi single-handedly took the Congress from defeat to victory and shattered Telugu Desam Party chief N Chandrababu Naidu’s dreams. An analysis of the results reveals that the Chiranjeevi factor decimated the TDP in 26 constituencies. The Congress netted 33 seats, four more than in 2004.
The Andhra Pradesh results are an irony of these elections. The Congress registered a drop of 3.84% in vote share but an increase of four seats, while the TDP’s vote share plummeted 14.92% and it won one more seat. If the vote share change of the two main parties is added, it is obvious where Chiranjeevi’s 17% vote share came from and which party he hit.
The other actor who rescued the UPA was Vijayakanth, who scripted history in a state known for pendulum swings.
For the first time in 23 years, the Tamil Nadu verdict was split, with the DMK-Congress combine picking up 26 seats and the AIADMK-led alliance having to settle for 13.
Vijayakanth’s DMDK helped the Congress-DMK combine win in 14 constituencies, including P Chidambaram’s hotly contested Sivaganga. In seven others, Jayalalithaa’s AIADMK alliance was precariously poised till the very end. Ultimately, it won those seats, but by narrow margins. The final tally for the UPA was 26, 18 to the DMK and eight to the Congress, in a state where the ruling alliance feared a wipe-out.
The vote share figures tell a strange story in this state too. The DMK and the Congress registered an increase in vote shares but failed to sweep the state as in 2004, when their Democratic Progressive Alliance (which included the PMK and MDMK) won all 39 seats. The AIADMK’s vote share dropped by 2.79% but the party won nine seats, unlike the duck five years ago.
The third game-changer was Raj. His Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) did exactly what it was expected to do. It cut into Shiv Sena-BJP votes and helped the Congress-NCP alliance to victory in 10 constituencies. Considering that the MNS contested only 12 seats, its delivery for the Congress-NCP was almost 100%. The UPA registered a spectacular second successive sweep in Mumbai and won Pune and Thane thanks to Raj.
The vote share picture is interesting here too. The Congress party’s vote share fell 4.11% in Maharashtra but its seat tally rose by four, to 13. In contrast, the NCP’s vote share is up by a slender 0.97% but its seat tally came down by one, to eight.
@ Vivekam Vairagyam
I am not desperate, but it is my mission to contest elections and serve the people.
Again i am not sure i shall land up with a Congress ticket to contest, but will try my best. I would like all your support eventually when i contest elections to help me. I look forward to your support.
What I said in 79 is coming very true.
Mr Ashwin if you stand for elections will you then decontrol temples from Indian govt holding as it is done in case of churches and mosques. This then will be level playing fields and real secularism. If you do this, you will surely get universal support. We will all say ” Ashwin Ho!!! Ashwin Ho!!!
@ Suhas,
One should understand barring some high profile temples in India the vast majority of them are survived based on Govt grants.
The reason why i am backing is i did this pience of exercise in Karnataka where, majority of temples would not even survive if there is no govt intervention.
It is not the govt intention to make use of the money that comes to temples for any ulterior motives. But to support majority temples which will not survive without govt intervention.
Also you are assuming monies come to Mosque and Church are in large quanttities — this might be true in soem cases, and those who get i am sure are well truly spening to the development of their community, which i again dotn see any wrong in doing it.
I know this issue has seen a lot of sentiments flayed around earlier, but if you look at the economics of this, i am afraid my friend there is not a huge benefit that comes across. I am happy to discuss on this issue at lengths in more detail if your wish so.
@ ashwin kumarasamy
.. i am clueless as to how the kaaangress culd ignore ur “over”tures for so long .. i mean , arent u the perfect sidekick to their first family , wht with all ur voluntary analysis of all that is green and perfect with ur party ,which is already almost perfect , but for u and about all the imperfections that bjp has … as soon as u r in there , kaangress will become truly complete and perfect … keep it up dude … i am sure u will go a long way there with ur “amazing and appropriate” attitude …. gud luk and all the very best in ur chosen party …. 😉
@ Vivekam.vairagyam
Sadly you have mistaken my friend, I have some soft corners for Congress but that does not mean, i cant question them. I have done so in the past and will continue to do so.
As for the BJP i am not saying they are all bad, i have great regard to Atalji, had good respect for Late Pramod Mahajan, campaigned idn my early years in favour of Ananth Kumar from Bangalore. Sadly they are no more the party with the difference. And more importantly they dont work for me for various reasons. That does not mean Congress works for me for everything.
@ Kaffir –
I criticise all attempts to curb freedom of speech equally – the way Congress and its allies have treated Nasreen is despicable and I hold no truck with them.
I am no fan of the Congress and their “secular” policies – if you do a search for my comments on this topic, you would find that I have made this point many times over. Outside of Swatantra Party, I do not think India ever has had a real secular party. And, I think this particular canard has now been buried along with the Lefts. So, let us move on.
But, here is the key – the reason I am holding the BJP’s feet to the fire is because I want them to be better. I want them to return to power, as a right-of-centre party. We certainly NEED them. But, at the same time, I am NOT willing to turn a blind eye to the excesses of its allies. Law and justice have to be supreme, for everyone.
@ Indian –
What about Raj Thackeray? He was arrested, sent to jail and released on bail only on an undertaking given to the courts that he will not make such inflammatory speeches again. And, he has not. So, what about him?
And, cases of murder and assault have been registered against the MNS workers implicated in the Nasik case. So, in Maharashtra, at least, the law of the land has been kept.
@ all –
And, then finally, pls consider this point – the BJP will always lose if it and its supporters try to hide behind the “tit for tat” excuse. The congress is the past master in this – recognise this fact.
Like Avis, whose slogan is “We try harder” because they are smaller than Hertz, the BJP has to try harder to win the mandate. They have to hold themselves to a higher standard and then, NOT LET THAT STANDARD SLIP when they have come to power.
Whether you folks like it or not, the Gujarat/Orissa riots define the essence of BJP now (IMO, Orissa is actually more harmful because you now have a previous alliance partner saying how evil the BJP is). You can say as much as you want that this is because of the ELM and “secularists” and how unfair this, but this is the reality today.
The question is – what can the BJP do to change this reality?
Cheers
I think you are making the same mistake that most supporters of BJP and indeed, the BJP itself does – copying the congress
@ Indian –
RE: Raj – and unlike Varun Gandhi, his supporters did not fight pitched battles with the police forces who arrested him and took him to jail.
@ Kaffir –
You know your point about Nasreen is a typical BJP supporter reaction!
Someone criticises how the VHP have targeted say, M F Hussain, and you will find a counter saying, how about the Danish cartoons? !!!!
How is the latter a response to the former? Like Nasreen vs Mangalore?
To me, it seems like instead of defending our freedoms, we are far more interested in extracting an eye for an eye, especially for past deeds.
As a right-of-centre party, the BJP would be far better-off if it were to come out as a strong defender of individual liberties and freedom, no matter who that individual may be.
Cheers
“To me, it seems like instead of defending our freedoms, we are far more interested in extracting an eye for an eye, especially for past deeds.”
That should have read:
To me, it seems like instead of defending our collective freedoms, we are far more interested in extracting an eye for an eye, especially for past deeds, where the eyes belong to entirely different people.
@Nanda comment #7. All the events you predict really amount to state sponsored terrorizing of Hindus. And that is how people are terrorized in a democracy–by the gradual erosion of their rights. Case in point Sri Lanka where the laws were rewritten to basically exclude Tamils from positions of power both in academia and government. This silencing of Hindus has been in place for at least 60 years since the time of Independence. Whether in the form of our histories being told by Communists/Marxists, or our religious institutions being controlled by the government.
I remember that in 2004 one of the first things Sonia Gandhi announced was that the government was going to stop funding Ekalvidyalayas. I remember the incident clearly (it was broadcast on the news) and the triumphant look on her face scared me.
As days go by, I think I will relive that emotion. But for the vast majority of us, we will accept every act to insult, demean and disenfranchise us in our own nation because we will think it is someone else’s problem to acctually fight. That is why we are so prepared to blame the BJP. They didn’t fight hard enough for us. Yet, of course we are ambivalent about actually joining them.
You know your point about Nasreen is a typical BJP supporter reaction!
Someone criticises how the VHP have targeted say, M F Hussain, and you will find a counter saying, how about the Danish cartoons? !!!!…
@Patriot, your above comment was not only irrelevant to our conversation, but totally unnecessary. I could retort and say that yours is a typical reaction from someone who has different/double standards.
@ Ashwin (#85): Pl. read this post: “Pseudo-secularism†at its best?
some typos in the previous , so shantanu can u pls remove it ,the typo corrected version ( as much as i culd )is here … thnx
@ Harapriya #91
have u already joined the bjp/sangh parivar by the time u wrote that comment ?
while ur feelings of despair are reasonable , we cannot deny the fact that simply continuing the past forms of piece-meal struggles will not work today just as they never did in the past …
we may be worlds better than our neighbors , we are not a democracy in its true meaning … u can still become a pm / president without being directly chosen by the people … this in itself proves the fact that we simply live in an oligarchy ( at best) clothed as a democracy … individuals cannot achieve much in such settings , that is why those groups that organise and stand together achieve better for themselves , for the same reason hindus dont do well ,they have an illusion they are extremely intelligent and so dont need to partner with other hindus ,
we need to realise that we lack a comprehensive response to any challenge thrown at us by our detractors ….
a comprehensive response to any/every problem , right from govt unfairly withdrawing funds to religious persecution, should include atleast ..
1) mainstream media power – the ability to communicate and reach a wider audience
2) continuing education of every memeber of the community about their rights, responsibilities and challenges
3) ability to address injustice / impropreity thru legal and media trials till the situation is redressed
4) support groups that interact with every family to help them acheive prosperity thru better education , health and jobs , no matter the resistance from the rest of the society
5) learn from the jews as to how they r handling some not so obvious assaults on their survival by their semitic counterparts
6) when ur response to any situation loses the ability to surprise ur competition , u r bound to repond with cliched approaches which can only fail
7) u need the to ability to engage ur adversaires in dialogue to get things done , jus shouting only makes u a laughing stalk , simultaneously u need to be able to execute other counter measures …
to the extent the bjp can promise and achieve these objectives , to that extent they will draw more constituents into their fold , people need to see that it is worth being in this association … wht is needed is a grassroots movt from villages to the universities and board rooms that will first consolidate the memebrship and activity base a la obama … with the ego clashes of the intellectuals in the party , is it a surprise that people like gurumurthy /arun shourie / prof vaidyanathan / tarun vijay/ m r venkatesh are not the face of the intellectual side of the movement execpt when a carefully constructed dissent/repartee needs to be presented so that it will clear the path for the “political manipulators†to get on with their infighting on their way to power … the day the organisation will give importance to merit and people who have a successful life outside politics and can work as team instead of for personal and/or political vendetta … that day the organisation will achieve for all people as the scriptures say , “loka samastha sukino bhavanthu †… till then things will keep going in circles , forward movement will only be in dreams …..
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7561
Retired computer science professor Satinath Choudhary has filed public interest litigation over India’s new electronic voting machines (EVMs) in India’s Supreme Court. Dr. Choudhary is a 1964 graduate of the prestigious Indian Institute of Technology and has also taught in the United States. The suit is due to come up for hearing immediately.
In the petition, a copy of which was uncharacteristically released publicly over the tech lists in India, Dr. Choudhary cited news reports of problems with the EVMs in some parts of the country, and said: “In my public-interest litigation (PIL) I have asked the Supreme Court for directions. I hope it will give a direction to save democracy in India.”
In an op-ed column for The Indian Express last week, Dr. Choudhary wrote, “Producing doctored EVMs is child’s play.”
@Vivekam.vairagyam. “We are ambivalent…” The we and ambivalence includes myself. My despair which you correctly sensed is not because the BJP didn’t win, but rather that there really is no political party that represents Hindu interests. Let me rephrase, there are parties who will cater to individual caste identities but will not recognize that Hindus are also a people who have group concerns.
The BJP lost my loyalty a long time ago. It was when it thought that it could promise me a uniform civil code, a ram mandir etc. and not deliver on even one of them. In fact to come to power, it threw its original agenda and joined together with the other “parasites for power”(to paraphrase Radha Rajan) regional parties to put Hindu interests permanently on hold.
I remember a BJP member (I think it was either Advani or Sushma) who, when asked about the Ram Mandir in 2004, said that one does not try to cash the same cheque twice. This was the level of committment they had to Hindu religious places. That is why when the Ram Sethu was threatened, the BJP did not protest–in fact it took only one man to go to court–Subramaniam Swamy.
The BJP will never be a party with a difference if it doesn’t do the following.
1. Get rid of anyone over 65 from active politics. (they can serve in advisory capacity)
2. Determine what its core ideology is and stick with it.
3. Have zero tolerance toward law-breakers within the party.
4. Stand up every time vocally and vociferously for Hindu rights everywhere in the world. That includes the rights of Hindus in Malyasia, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Nepal , Bangladesh etc.
@ Shantanu,
ON the issue of temples in Karnataka and being run by the Govt., i have soem first hand experience where my family friend was the Deputy Secretary during the period of 99-2001 of “Mujrai” Dept or the govt dept which runs temples.
I can say by and large at the higher level across say 5year period they tend to maintain a status quo.
It is important to understand that there are very few temples which can claim to generate big time revenues and there are 96% of temples and priests who deepend upon the government grants and salaries. On the question of renovating temples the govt have their own criteria on how they would evaluate every application.
As for the issue of Chruches or Mosques, for a second if one forgets the Haj subsidies, the pattern as explained above for temples is replicabale. rather than getting to technicalities here, i thought of applying a RTI – but i guess there is a group in bangalore who have done this and i am trying to get hold of them for such a data, i shall forward you the same.
Just because one has a soft spot for minorities that is not pseudo secular and in the same context just because one is a hindu advocate he is not communal. The ones who are communal are the ones who build their careers or base their activities on the back of dividing the communities in the name of religion or catse are communal. Also the ones who prey on the insecurities they are communal in my view.
@ harapriya ….
valid concerns … i can only think of one solution , lets start a party that can do these things ….. cool?
Harapriya
Stop funding Ekalvidyalayas, by govt.
Why rely on the govt? In my visits overseas , I have tried to convince many Indians, esp Sanatanis , to do a lot for the Ekalvidyalayas type institutions. We can do this with their help. If it is pvt and non profit , will the govt interfere? Some of them were positive, some shied away. There is one organisaztion on which I am having immense faith is in Hawaii. But they will not move till their headquarters is firmly established in 2012, for work in India.
The reason, I am optimistic is that they have countered the negative image of Sanatan Dharma to a great extent, with their publications. Their web site is a visual treat. They are selfless workers. Some may find that the first Guru ( modern time) had SriLankan Tamil Yogi as a Guru, but they have grown to such a large stature , that if all goes well 2012 , their dedication will come to fruition.
Another reason is that they have done extraordinary work in Singapore, Mauritius and Malaysia. Mauritius , there was nothing some twenty years ago. You have to see Mauritius now. I was in joy tears there, when I saw temples ( very neat). These countries have small population of Sanatanis, but they are well organised, run schools very efficiently in Mauritius. Thanks to http://www.gurudeva.org Initially I was apprehensive , but later after a visit there and seeing their place I was convinced. They have fierce dedication.
Mata Amrita in Kerala. She has done a lot there and Her institution can also take care of these Ekalvidyalays or other instituions. We all must request Her to take initiative. I will be writing to Her. I have urged many of my colla\eagues to do this, atleast write to such people or talk to them, Surely something will come out.
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar , and others should forget publicity and divert their time and funds to these Ekalvidyalayas type instituions doing some good work. A Hospital etc.
In US, where I was for some time , there are so many non-religious , non-profit organisations set up , with donations and charity. They just do not rely on Govt.
It is high time, we forget govt funding in India , which will be biased. Just look out for endowments , charity, and accumulate a very high amount , so that with interest, you could run Ekalvidyalaya type instituions.
@ Kaffir –
“your above comment was not only irrelevant to our conversation, but totally unnecessary”
I am a bit bemused here … you dragged Nasreen into the debate, and my comment is irrelvant.
Okay, whatever you say, mate.
http://friendsofbjp.org/2009/05/20/elections-2009-analysis-interpreting-the-results/comment-page-1/#comment-6469
worth a look ..
Vivekam: I had a look…Is there a particular comment you were referring to?
Thanks
@ shantanu
nope … jus felt that it was an active discussion worth a look …
I am a bit bemused here … you dragged Nasreen into the debate, and my comment is irrelvant.
@Patriot, that was to add to your list of Orissa and Karnataka violence – that if BJP is responsible for those acts, then Congress is equally culpable for how Taslima Nasreen was treated. You’re the one who came up with “typical response from BJP supporter” [Would that be considered ad hominem by any chance? You are really quick to tell others when their argument is logically fallacious. 🙂 ] instead of addressing the substance of the argument. Anyways, moving on mate.
@ shantanu
the same comments that i posted here were also posted there, “moderation ” seems to have removed it … do you think its coz i was too critical of arun jaitley during the friendsofbjp events ? seems interesting ,, i will keep u updated on that .. so much tolerance even at friendsofbjp …. has anyone had similar experiences there?
@ Vivekam: “the same comments that i posted here were also posted there, “moderation †seems to have removed it …
Very interesting…and not good at all…I will make some inquiries…
Thanks for highlighting this and pl. keep us posted.
A counter-point to statements re. EVM rigging.
@ Ashwin (#97): I am copying your comment to this thread and posting my response there.
Pl. continue the discussion on this particular aspect over on the other post. Thanks.
@ shantanu .. thnx for ur help ….
… finally , after email enquiry (with refernce about where it was supposed to have been )about why it was not posted and after posting abt the “inordinate” delay in this blog …. the post has “appeared …. a fren of mine in b’lore concurred that some posts need a nudge or two to appear , and thnx to shantanu too for his help …
Many thanks, Shantanu, for posting that counterpoint. When people “believe” that fraud has been committed, sometimes no amount of contrary evidence can sway them. But, the article you quoted does a very good job, indeed.
And, I reproduce here the critical part demolishing the myth that INDIAN EVMs are hackable, without being noticed.
Thank you for the post again, Shantanu. Sometimes, Indian technology does trump that of the US/Europe – but, in this case, it is the same chaps who sing paens about India’s historical knowledge base (Aryabhatta, Sushrusha, etc), who refuse to acknowledge our current technical prowess.
Cheers
Oh, and finally, people who say that they can hack our EVMs should be invited to an open press conference by the EC to please prove their claims.
That would be interesting!
Cheers
@ shantanu
there is an interesting discussion here esp see the “secular” interests still at play even after all this havoc being wreaked on hindus …..
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=2114
@ shantanu and all ..
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=2114
the link thread came up with some very interesting comments on both sides of the aisle .. i wuld appreciate ur comments on that …
I will have a look during the weekend Vivekam…Thanks.
Vivekam: I had a look…superb comments and counter-comments…
I am just posting something on “Reviving BJP”…you will find that interesting…I would welcome thoughts.
Separately, am writing a post on Ram Janmabhoomi…which you will find interesting too.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the thread.
@ shantanu … thnk u 4 the comments and u r welcome .. yup shall look into it … tc