India decides on Congress led UPA – Guest Post
*** India decides on Congress led UPA – is it a default, surprise or strategy? ***
Guest Post by Ashwin Kumaraswamy
Knowing very well, this post is a tad too early; the largest democracy of the world has thrown up very decisive results for Congress and its allies. These results are particularly sweet for Congress and its first family. They had a lot of personal stakes in these elections. State after state the Congress party had to get accustomed to coming of Rahul Gandhi. Be is going alone in Bihar & UP, Punjab candidates list, being projected as the main campaigner of the Congress.
People of India have voted for stability in these tough economic and security related environment. A point which should not be missed out is results are now moving away from the multi party poll pori to a bi-polar polarity around Congress and BJP.
These results are a surprise even to Congress party; they were confident that they would be a single largest block but never expected such a decisive mandate not just for the party but also for the Congress first family. With all the caveats that the Congress led UPA might and will fall short of simple majority, it is still a massive victory for Congress and its allies.
The writing was there for BJP and more importantly Left parties who wanted to do back seat driving by forming the 3rd front government. The following reasons in my opinion led to Congress victory:
BJP’s short sighted attempt to make this election a presidential form of election and by making personal remarks on Dr Singh calling him a “nikhama†and weak Prime Minister.
Indian has answered convincingly that Dr.Singh’s contribution to India in the last 20yrs has been leaps and bounds compared to any other political and non political person. The underlying current here that I picked up from NTDV is Congress has got better support from urban India, which was more a BJP constituency. This is again to do with Dr. Singh’s projection as PM. What is also important to understand is, there is a clear line of responsibility between Sonia Gandhi and Dr. Singh that of strengthening the party and running the government.
RTI, NREGA have been a massive hit in those states where it has been utilized properly
It is to the credit of the Congress party and its mangers for driving hard the point that these were their policies. In short a better marketing and branding exercise
The 3rd front myth has been busted
Be it in Bengal, Kerala, UP, Bihar – people have gone for National parties or national alliances and it’s a matter of coincidence that Congress and its allies have made the most of this. Especially the sweep in Kerala and West Bengal West Bengal can itself be a very interesting case to discuss, may b later though.
Rahul Gandhi being the youth icon
Rahul Gandhi, Sachin Pilot, Jyotiraditya Scindia and Omar Abddulla any day would be better in capture the attention of the new voters and the young minds compared to the likes of Advani, Modi, Mayawati, or the Left.
Emergence of Rahul Gandhi
He took some strategic decisions rather forced them on Congress. Be is going alone in UP & Bihar, but also was the star campaigner for the Congress. Now I will be accused for being a sycophant, but the fact of the matter is people have seen him trying hard to make the difference and though shy he comes across as natural when he speaks. In UP one can clearly see the hard work of Rahul Gandhi and Congress, their campaign has been around “Bring Congress for development in UP†and largely this has resonated with the people. BJP, BSP and SP have all taken their core voters for a ride and this election has seen the Upper caste Brahmins and Muslims coming back for the first time after 1989.
DMK and SP holding roughly to their position this accounts for roughly 50seats
It was expected that AIADMK would sweep elections in TN and SP would be decimated the benefit would either go to BSP or BJP.
*** End ***
Ashwin Kumaraswamy, came to UK 7yrs back as a student and is currently working as a technology venture capitalist. He has seen politics from very close quarters and shortly intends to take active participation in electoral politics of India. He can be reached via www.polltalk.blogspot.com
Related Posts:
Open Thread to discuss Elections 2009
Posts under Elections 2009 category
What can I say?
These results will give rise to such people and secularism…
@ Hemant
It would be helpful if you can expand on your comment “rise to such people and secularism” specially secularism.
The reason being, i guess this election has largely been fought in the name of stability and to an extent centred around the two national parties. But i dont see this election as a whole or even for that matter Indian polity has got rid of the caste driven politics. It would be interesting to see how this decisive result would be made use by both National parties…
So is election verdict a win for the Congress or a loss for India? By the way, apparently 50% of the people didn’t vote. Mandatory voting sounds really a good idea.
*** NOTE by B Shantanu ***
Harapriya: Thanks. I have already written a post on this which should be published sometime next week.
“such people and secularism”
Right the kind of secularism where one community gets first rights over everything.
What a decisive win! And that’s what is called stregth, which MMS displayed by actions, eat your words LKA, and for the party of Hindutva, they should better understand “Dharma” only stands and wins, not traitors.
I agree, it is the result of 50% voting. Hindus still likes to live “Ram Bharose” life.
Let winners have their pie. Its always next, I only feel sorry for the efforts of 50 years of L.K. Advani.
On Strategy
The master stroke in strategy was done by Barack Obama. When he knew that Fox news and the press in general was pro Republican he went all the way to Berlin to address a rally. One never knows who advised him or he himself or the Europeans themselves. The reason being Europe was anti Iraq war and the Neocons in US. There was a lot of ill feeling towards US and the news agencies and the press was critical of US in Europe. Seeing this Barack seized the opportunity and started his political ascendancy with a bang. The news media in Europe lapped it well
This victory, please remember, in not not without money power and deceit. CONgress ensure anti-incumbency votes in Maharashtra, AP and TN (about 122 seats) didn’t go against them by propping up Raj Thackeray, Chiru and Vijaykanth. We must give it to them. These three states along with West Bengal made all the difference to CONgress. BJP has to think about expanding into these states.
However neither CONgress nor Rahul is good for India and Indians. I am sure Evangehadis will continue to run amok with renewed vigour.
Indian Elections 2009: Not the result I was looking forward to but I will respect and accept a stable government over a cobbled majority, atleast we are spared Mayawati as Prime Minister and Prakash Karat as Foreign Minister,that would be some disaster, not that it was ever happening. Importantly, the government will not be held hostage by left support, so more reforms on the way.
Indian voters are good at selecting the candidates that bring home the most bacon.. okay ‘roti’… so UPA with their loan waiver and employment g’tee scheme scored well. Ofcourse congress ran a better campaign, (Jairam Ramesh and his team..) while BJPs pseudo secular approach fell flat, to no small measure from infighting and egos. Chop for Rajnath ?
Majority of Indian corporate was looking forward to seeing NDA government in centre…well, BJP sympathisers (me included), accept the People’s Verdict, and soldier on. That’s the essence of Democracy. Next 5yrs should be used to get the organisation and house in order and be a constructive opposition
Excerpts from a thought-provoking
Election 2009 – The BJP got what it deserved by Radha Rajan:
When ambition overrode ideology
…The BJP suffers from seven problems – Advani, Jaswant Singh, Murli Manohar Joshi, Arun Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj, Narendra Modi and Rajnath Singh
…They all think they are Prime Ministerial matter; after Vajpayee, Advani thought he had the automatic right of inheritance while the remaining six think they have automatic right of inheritance after Advani.
The Problem Seven, in the last 10 years have done two things – they have ruthlessly decimated or kept at bay other challengers to the throne in the states and in Delhi, while simultaneously doing everything to make sure that the other six in the group do not take even half a step in the direction of becoming party president which is the penultimate chair before the throne; and that is why, despite losing the elections in 2004 and now in 2009, Advani continues to remain at the top.
Advani’s continuation is the only way to prevent the others from getting there. The top leadership is therefore septuagenarian or octogenarian, the second rung leadership is already aged and the third rung is aging fast and frustrated.
…These cut-throat operators have rivals in the camp even in the states; the results are there for all to see in Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan…
…The BJP’s descent was accelerated with Advani’s public pronouncement that good governance does not need ideology. This was as good as saying that a family is only an involuntary collective of individuals and can function efficiently without family values.
…The BJP began with the pious intention of positioning itself as a contrast to the Congress. It chose ideology to define its self-identity because it had no dynasty to define it. When the BJP stepped into the national political arena, it was still carrying memories of its previous nationalist incarnation the Jana Sangh and was driven by a Hindu nationalist ideology as embodied in Tilak, Aurobindo, Savarkar and then in the RSS as conceived of by Dr. Hedgewar.
The BJP’s political agenda was determined by Hindu nationalism and there was convergence of intent between the two most prominent of the RSS siblings – the BJP and the VHP.
The first steps in turning the BJP around on a deviant path, away from its defining ideology was taken by Atal Behari Vajpayee when he privileged coalition partners over party ideology. The slide was perceptible then and the writer used the platform offered by Vigil Public Opinion Forum to voice this concern….
*** End of Excerpts ***
I believe Part – II is expected tomorrow
Another view Congress won conclusively by Swapan Dasgupta:
…The NDA has not merely fallen significantly below its own psephological expectations; it has been rejected by the electorate. Perhaps the rejection is not quite so categorical as that suffered by the Left and the partners of the Third Front (with the honourable exception of Naveen Patnaik). But this is really a debate about whether a 80 run defeat is worse than an innings defeat. After the 1991 election, The Economist had a report entitled, “The winner came secondâ€, testifying to the BJP’s surge and its ability to dominate the agenda. This time there is not even pretence of a moral victory. The winner has taken it all.
…There were two important constituencies the BJP failed to attract in this election: the middle classes and the youth. Both these segments were crucial in ensuring the party’s performance in 1998 and 1999.
…What was not neutralised was the overall image problem of the BJP—as a party that is backward-looking, too shrill and insufficiently attentive to contemporary concerns.
…The BJP’s problem is ideological but not in the way the votaries of identity politics see it. Its lapses stem from a non-application of mind to contemporary issues such as economic and strategic policy—witness its indifferent performance in Parliament for five years.
…After two consecutive election defeats, the BJP may be confronted by a problem of relevance. It has to either reinvent itself or suffer the ignominy of steady marginalisation. The loss of all seven seats in Delhi by huge margins is a pointer to the price the party has to pay for its refusal to keep pace with the realities of a new India.
“YATHA PRAJA THATHA RAJA” YOUNG VOTED YOUNG
This elections if you see apart from Karnataka and Gujrat – majority of the urban population has sided towards Congress….are we seeing the end of politics in the name of Lord Ram?
I subscribe to Radha Rajan to an extent, the Gen Next of BJP has done more harm to the party then good. They are all good and ready made types for the 24×7 media. Theya re articulate, media savy and can score debating points but they miss out on being mass leaders? The dichotomy in India is you should be both media savy and also be able to be man/woman of the masses. Sadly BJP has less of them and more media savy articulate white colared politicians.
This elections they missed Atalji and Pramod mahajan.
@Ashwin,
“are we seeing the end of politics in the name of Lord Ram?”
are we seeing the continuation of politics in the name of ‘Minorities’?
Excerpts from Radha Rajan’s Analysis re. BJP (Part II). Also see comment # 11:
Election 2009 – The BJP got what it deserved – II
…The death of ideology was beginning to manifest itself and signaled the undoing of the BJP. The BJP was already ailing – it lost confidence in its ability to stand alone, to walk alone. The NDA allies promised to be the BJP’s crutches in return for the assurance that the BJP would give up its stand-alone ideology. Why are we heart-broken that the BJP suffered humiliating losses in 2004 and 2009 because of atrophy?
It is not within the ambit of this column to delineate why Ramjanmabhumi, the Uniform Civil Code, abrogating Article 370 and ban on cow slaughter defined Hindu nationalism; suffice to say, these were substantive issues defining nation, nationhood and nationalism and could be fulfilled only by state power. A party’s election manifesto is both an expression of self-identity and a statement of intent. The election manifesto is a promise of ideology in action. By choosing not to go to the people and seek their mandate on the basis of its ideology and presenting the country with a deracinated document called NAG, the BJP with deliberate intent abdicated its responsibility to the Hindus and allowed itself to be ‘secularised’ by the parasites feeding on it.
…
Atal Behari Vajpayee managed the 24-party coalition “successfully†only by destroying his own party. Parasites became ‘coalition partners’, walking with crutches became ‘taking everyone along’, opportunist buckling to parasite pressure became ‘coalition dharma’ and Ramjanmabhumi became an ‘encashed cheque’ and ‘BJP is not a construction company’.
…Having emaciated the BJP beyond recognition, the parasites abandoned the body and moved over to the Congress. Several among them discarded the ‘secular’ NDA robes and wrapped the UPA bath-towel around their waists.
…The BJP’s ‘coalition partners’ in coalition ‘dharma’, the AIADMK, the National Conference, the LJP, the BJD, the TDP, the JD(S) and even the Akali Dal have periodically spat on the BJP face but unlike the Congress, the BJP continued to practice its brand of coalition dharma like Gandhi practiced his brand of ahimsa;
Read it in full on the Vigil website.
@ Nanda,
I guess we have seen the end of politics in the name of religion at a higher level. But what needs to be seen is can indians put an end to politics in the name of caste – i guess it shall happen, but timing is anyones guess!!!!
@Ashwin
You avoided my question beautifully. Nevertheless, I think, we have not seen the end of politics in the name of religion. Afterall, this election was won also on politics by religion(minoritism) inaddition to other factors. We can expect lot more politics in the name of religion during next five years. Some of them are demolition of Sethu, special reservation to muslims, jeruselem pilgrimages, first right on resources to muslims, citizenship to illegal immigrants etc.
@ Nanda,
I do this there will be certain pockets of India where this will resonate. But i do think people of India have grown out of it. UP is a good example in this elections which has cut down the impact of politics of religion. Be is BJP/SP/BSP who all command their place by polarising comminities …have faraed badly. UP was also an example where Congress was squezzed from the other three in the caste combination and religion mix in politics foe the last 20yrs. The resurgence of Congress does says something…and i do feel it is a good thing.
Irrespective of who has won (though i am happy Congress led UPA will form the next govt) the Indian voters have shown maturity to reverting to bi-polar polity.
@Ashwin
You say: “I guess we have seen the end of politics in the name of religion at a higher level”
Do you mean to say if Hindus don’t vote BJP, then the dirty politics of religion has come to an end while when Muslims and Christens vote Congress to keep BJP away (apparently thats what seems to have happened with around just 45-50% voting nationawide and out of that ‘vote banks’ voting for Congress due to various ‘fatwas’) it perfetly natural and non-communal?
This seems more like pseudo-secular stuff where asking Punjabis to vote for Congress because of Sikh PM is allowed but BJP using ‘Ram’ is found to be communal…
@Ashwin
Sorry for asking you that question as just now I saw your previous comment “i am happy Congress led UPA will form the next govt” where you confirm your side.
@nanda I agree with you regarding the furutre trends during the rule of this ‘majoity’ government though things may not happen that much openly. Here is my guess:
1) NCERT and etc (History) syllabus will be updated again with even fewer lines about Raja Shivaji and with some glorification added abount Aurangzeb and Co.
2) Further inroads made into judicial system. Cases/ inquiry committies against opposition – especially BJP people – will be asked to be finished (with favorable result) within 3 months.
3) More churches – not just limite to AP now!
4) Further media bias…
@Ashwin Kumaraswamy
—-Rahul Gandhi being the youth icon
Rahul Gandhi, Sachin Pilot, Jyotiraditya Scindia and Omar Abddulla any day would be better in capture the attention of the new voters and the young minds compared to the likes of Advani, Modi, Mayawati, or the Left.—-
Personally I respect every one as human being nothing against anyone and also I am not in politics.
So you advocate family politics. And from where did you get that idea of Modi and Advani? If you say young mind than
Sonia Gandhi, Manmohan Singh, Chidambarm, Kapil Sibal and many growing Congressi is fine? Wow! you play politics beautifully.
Modi is elected CM. Its not the voice of the people of the State and the youth of Gujarat? Youth of Gujarat are not prestigious to you? Did you know that some part in Amethi was not ready to vote for Rahul Gandhi, due to underdevelopment. They say they want bridge and roads than they will vote?
@ Indian
I am merely saying Rahul Gandhi across India and the next generation leaders curritng across party lies haev done well. Automatically young minds have prefered youngersters over the likes of senior leaders. I am not be-littling BJP or Modi.
I am merely citing some of the reasons for Congress victory and Rahul beign the youth icon is one such factor which has worked for Congress. He has campaigned in 106 constituencies and of which nealy 70 have turned up victorious. This is a high success ratio when compared to any other campaigner in 2009 elections.
on this issue of dynastic politics – i am not against it. the reason being it is not a jagirdar. Every 5yrs they have to come back to the electorate like others and get elected by the people.
They might get an easy route to contest election, but nonetheless they should get elected from the people. As long as they dont flaunt their politics lineage or become arrogant then it becomes an issue instantly. After first elections, they have to slog it out to get re-elected.
@ Hemant
Dont mistake my words, i have merely said politics of religion and dividing the communities based, thus polarising the electorate for ones gains is not going to work.
Hindus have not just voted for BJP, they have also voted for Congress and other parties. So to say BJP alone is the protector of hindu interests is factually wrong.
On the same breath, what i am saying BJP made this a political plank from 1991 and their numbers went up primarily because of polarising the society. That as a factor is no more a political issue is what i am saying.
BJP is truly at the crossroads now, they need to reinvent and RSS knows this better than anyone. So it would be intersting to see how they would go about doing it.
In the same context the myth of Muslims supporting SP, RJD Left after babri demolition has been broken. UP and Bihar are perfect examaples for this. Where in UP Congress has always said they are not asking votes in the name of caste and religion. As for Bihar, muslims have voted to Nitish and BJP hence the rout of RJD and LJP
@Ashwin: You are truly distorting facts here. Let me clarify:-
When you say that BJP’s use of Hindutva is no more of a plank because it lost this election, then you must also agree that whenever BJP wins state elections one after the other, Hindutva is a plank. right? Or, is it that whenever BJP loses its because “Hindutva died as a poll issue” and whenever it wins, its because of “developmental politics”?
You also say that the myth of muslims supporting RJD/SP has been broken – FYI, muslims voting for them is no myth but a fact. It just happened that the muslims “this time” thought for a change in UP (Kalyan Singh+Varun). In Bihar particularly, we don’t know for sure if Muslims voted for BJP or the Yadavs, that turned the Laloo applecart. You’ve made some good points in the post and I agree with some (like personal attacks on MMS, success of RTI, NREGA and mandate against 3rd front). But, please refrain from overstretching the point.
Another case in point is the emergence of Rahul Gandhi – it happens after every elections, irrespective of whether cong. wins or lose. Its like a batsman in cricket who’s given abundance of chances till he scores a century, irrespective the number of times he’s bowled over. All that matters is in the end he “scores a century”. And the chance is given by media, i.e. if congress loses in Gujarat or elsewhere after Rahul baba’s campaign, its not because Rahul is a duffer to begin with, it loses due to communal BJP or “internal problems” with congress. But, if Congress wins, its largely due to the aura of Rahul. Its typical media BS.
@Ashwin Kumarswamy
So Rahul Gandhi’s speech empowering youth of India falls flat. Right! Its empowerment of young of political families. So that they can make a way for (to be PM material) Rahul Gandhi. For that you are also trying your best.
I completely agree with Bhavananda for what he/she has to say about emergence of Rahul Gandhi. Congressi are giving conducive atmosphere to Rahul Gandhi till he becomes political savvy and is accepted by the public, without forcing him on the public. Waiting for the time when they can make PM out of Rahul Gandhi.
Its surprising that you like jagirdari kind of politics. I agree they have seen their parents going through political career so it come easy to them. They have special status and privileges in the community. Oh Ya arrogance, they very well know how to treat less privileged public, so that less privilege keeps voting and they keep ruling. Did not you hear what Sonia Gandhi said in West Bengal ‘now a days it is a fashion every one wants to become PM’. And you must be knowing what Left replied to it.
@Indian: I’ve no doubt in my mind that Rahul is our future PM. If you want to know why and how, you will need to read (if you already didn’t) a bit on how media is swamped with money from “special interest groups” in reports like “Mitrokhin archives” or read ‘Manufacture of consent’ by Noam Chomsky. The amount of money as well as the well oiled machinery involved is mind boggling. I can live with hyping up of MMS by the media, after all he’s an academic/economist, and its okay to give him the benefit of doubt. But Rahul baba’s charisma? No way!
@ gajanan: I have moved your comment moved here
@Ashwin
Thats what I suspected. When BJP wins, (pseudo) secularists say it won by polarising the society (read Hindu fanatism) while when Congress has won, it is due to people leaving religion behind!
“BJP made this a political plank from 1991 and their numbers went up primarily because of polarising the society. That as a factor is no more a political issue is what i am saying.”
I would say Congres won his time because of polarisation of society that is, the minority (remember ‘first right to nation’s resources’ people?) went in bunch to vote for Congress as they were ordered to not to divide their votes.
So Rahul Gandhi speech empowering people and young is myth and falls flat. Its the empowerment of political families. Right?
And my views are same as Bhavananda said in last para. Congrssi are giving condusive atmoshpere till he becomes confident. WoW! nice priviledges.
Dynastic politics. See the example of TN. Karunanidhis progenies. The fellow who got elected from Madurai has a biodata of goondagiri, probably he was trained well inhouse for this.
There are plenty of bad characters from dynastic families in politics. So bless them in politics , if their parents were in high positions in the political arena. What a joke? .
Then you have the other extreme of Lal Bahadur Shastri’s children, where are they. In short duration befitting his short stature , he gave India , the Green revolution , the White revolution and handled the 1965 war like a real Bahadur. Both Anil and Sunil good fellows have been sidelined by the Congress, even though in Congress.
http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/04/stories/2006100405691200.htm
Then Arjun Singh’s daughters were not given tickets. Why??
http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20090421/1233248.html
Are they children of a lesser God?
Demystify Dynastic politics like how Obama did ( of course GW Bush , who keeps the book inverted , when he reads it to school children, had only two terms 8 yrs in USA)
Why not introduce two terms only (10 yrs) for PM In India?
Ashwin, re. “dynastic politics”, I am surprised by your defence. The way I look at it, by choosing to pick candidates based solely on lineage (as happens in most cases), the party “High Command” not only insults the local members of the party (who, ideally, should choose a candidate from amongst themselves) but also belittles the electorate by effectively saying: “this person is our “candidate” – your views be damned.
Yes, the candidate may not get elected – but he/she still remains the party’s candidate – more often than not solely because his/her parent/close relative hasd earlier represented that constituency.
It is very much like a “Jagirdari” – except the voters supposedly get a chance to throw non-performers out (much as siblings/relatives of earlier “jagirdars” got a chance to overthrow them).
I need not add that the system effectively keeps very many capable and honest people (such as you) out of the race – simply because you do not belong to the “right family”.
Is it not sad (and worrying)?
See also Harapriya’s comment here re. dynastic politics.
And while I appreciate you are a supporter of Congress(I), do you agree that certain policies of the party have done more harm than good and can be considered to be driven by doubtful motivations rather than public good? Specifically:
DO you agree with the Congress (I)’s policies of minorityism?
Do you agree that the policies of Congress (I) and their state governments have been anything but “secular”?
Do you believe that NREGA and Loan Waiver worsen the problem (in the long run) rather than improving things?
Do you agree that the Congress (I)-led UPA has attempted to systematically subvert institutions of state e.g. the CBI, the offices of Election Commissioner and President?
Do you believe that the fact of Congress (I) “High Command” giving tickets to certain criminals-turned politicians undermines Rahul Gandhi’s claim to “cleanse politics”?
and finally, do you have any data to support that the youth overwhelmingly voted in favour of Congress (I) – not perfect data, exit polls will do too…
Look forward to your response.
Thanks
@ Ashwin
You say that Hindus have voted for the Congress. Have you taken care to think over this sentence? Can you really say Hindus have voted for Congress?
Apparently, this time Muslims have voted en-block on a national issue for the first time after 20 years, for one party and for one issue, without exception. That makes at least 8% of the voter base. Now, Congress has got around 35% of votes. So if it has got 8% of ready-made Muslim votes it doesn’t leave much to get from Hindus.
So can you really say that Congress has got Hindu votes? If anything can be said about Hindu votes, it is the fact that Hindus are shying away from every party.
*** COMMENT EDITED ***
@ Ashwin
At Rahul Gandhi, less said the better, but I cannot help observing that the intelligence quotient in Gandhi family decreases by an order of ten every generation. 🙂
Look what has become of them, since their family shot into glory with Motilal Nehru! The next one, Jawaharlal Nehru was a poet and a philospher, a fool in politics but nevertheless he knew history (however wrong and ideological, doesn’t matter here), language, and a little bit of practical daily life problems.
Next comes the hot-headed pampered princess, Indira. She at least had the galls to make some decisions, if not very prudent. Next comes the teddy-bear Rajiv. The guy had absolutely no clue what politics is all about, or for that matter any other field or subject, but he at least had a job before he became a prime minister. He knew how to fly a plane, and in that he did better than his brother.
But boom goes Rajiv, and thud comes Rahul! At the age of 33, he had no job! Of any kind! What does it show? Well, one could say he was good at politics. But that comment would have to come out from the mouth of a Martian!
…
After all this, to say that Congress has attracted youth and that Rahul has done this is simply incredulous. The guy will barely get a job of Rs. 2,000 in an electricity department, let alone stirring up a revolution in youth.
A certain gentleman once said to me, before 2004 elections that the day Rahul baba will become the prime minister of India, he will commit suicide!
Now looking at the circumstances, I am trying to arrange a Passport and a Visa for him, just in case…
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
@ Pankaj: I have been forced to delete part of your comment as it crossed the line on personal abuse. Please be careful in your choice of words and please do have a look at my comment modration policy.
@ Bhavananda
I am merely saying that the hindutva plack alone cant get votes. This can be seen in UP, where there is a drift of brahmin, dalit, muslim communities moving from BJP/BSP/SP towards Congress. Also the sam view has been expressed by BJP’s Chandan Mitra and some RSS leaders.
Also, I am not saying they won elections just by polarising society. If you look at the BJP political graph it took a big upward swing only after 1990. That was when the upward caste and religion played a role in decimating Congress in UP.
@ Indian,
Varun Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi are good cases of pedigre and how they have behaved ….. As for the dynastic politics they have a easy start but that does not mean they are gauranteed of their place in politics until they get elected by the people. If some one has issues, they have all the freedom to contest against them and convince the people to vote against them. It is not as if there is no level playing field.
@ Hemant
I am not sure if polarising of society has helped Congress win elections this time…there were plenty of alternatives. Also it is not that NDA allies have not got muslim votes.
My views on why Congress was voted to power was because people made a decisison they would prefer Dr.Singh as PM vis-a-vis LK Advani, good showing of Congress, almost decimation of fourth front. Also there has been a -10.9% negative swing against BJP and allies, +5.6% swing towards Congress …as indicated by all the analysts. Whether we like or not, this has happened due to variety of reason as indicated by me.
You are just trying to support BJP at any cost saying that Congress polarised the communities, which was not found by any analysts and also, not even BJP leaders have expressed such an opinion.
@ Moderator
Sorry for my comment and thanks for the warning. I will take care of it in future.
@ Pankaj
There is absolute care in saying hindus have voted for Congress. No one community/caste is sufficient to win elections.
You are factually wrong in saying that muslims have voted enblock to Congress. For the first time ien recent years they have votes have been distributed, from Left, RJD, SP, BSP being clear winners of muslim vote in the hindi heartland, they have started to move away from these parties and have voted for BJD, JD(U) and Congress.
@ Ashwin
Well, you yourself say that only BJD, JD(U) and Congress have got the votes of Muslims in these electins. Though I wouldn’t agree on BJD issue, as Muslims votes are not that decisive in their geographical region, but I agree that JD (U) has got some Muslims votes, which has affected some seats.
But except that Muslim votes have gone to Congress, Kerala and WB being the best examples.
@ Shantanu
Dynastic politics:
I am not endorsing it, but i am only saying it is the reality of life. May be we see it glaringly in politics due to some bad elements part of dynastic politics. I have no issues if dynastic politics puts up worthy candidates. The current lot of babalog are by and large descent, educated, articulate and have put in hard work to win elections.
I have always maintained that, though they get a clear head start by getting tickets to contest. May be even win their first elections easily, but it has been proved that if they dont put in hard work adn work hard, getting a re-elections is not easy. I know this by personal experience of having seen some of the political families from very close quarters (both good precedence and negative precedences).
On your other question related to dynastic politics. Every party gives tickets to those whom they can think can win the elections. Why would they waste a ticket by giving to those who may not have the capability to win. There are very few constituencies in India where a party can get elected irrespective of who contests and for such seats party nominates those who have worked hard for the growth of the party.
Except the Left parties no other party in India is immune to dynastic politics. Even the most cadre based parties like BJP, TDP, you can see dynastic politics.
What is also heartning is Rahul Gandhi has indicated that though he is a product of ddynastic politics, he was eager to put in place atleast in the NSUI and Youth Congress internal democracy and get the youth involved into politics. He has started his experiment in UP, Punjab, Kerala, Uttrakhand. He has said in one of his press conference “he is a product of dynastic politics it is not his fault for he is concious to set the system right atleast for COngress to bring is accountability and internal democracy …to choose candidates”. We can only hope he succeeds in doing so.
Personally i am looking for ward to contest elections in the near future and i would not be disheartned because there is dynastic politics. Though i might have to eventually take on against one of the political dynasties in a constituencies i am thinkign about contesting. It all boils down to how we position ourself to the electorate.
@ Shantanu and Harapriya
DO you agree with the Congress (I)’s policies of minorityism?
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What you mean by policies of minorityism? Every political party in India who had held position either in state or central has to cater and have catered for minorities. By and large the quantum of support is same, the means to support has varied. On the larger context,i hope we in future stop making the distinction between minority and majority communities – this can happen only if first there is a social acceptance and the economics of support would just vanish.
Congress has come up with policies like other parties, but i should be candid in saying the implementation of support to minorities in India has been hopeless and Congress should take the large part of the blame for this. But on the same context the demolition of Babri masjid did not help the casue.
Do you agree that the policies of Congress (I) and their state governments have been anything but “secular�
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By and large they have been secular, but there are incidences when Rajiv Gandhi was misled on the Shah Bano case, there waa Bhagalpur riots, Congress did not do enough to stop the Babri demolition (though one can debate PVN beleived Atalji, Advani and Kalyan Singh and they let him down)
Do you believe that NREGA and Loan Waiver worsen the problem (in the long run) rather than improving things?
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In the longer run, they are for a country like India. But given the plight of farmers in the last few years i would support it till there is stability. Remember in India unlike west agriculture is largely based on small time farmers (sub 5 acre land holding) rather than large farms. There are large amounts of subsidies being doled out to farmers in West, adn they are pushing for agriculture reforms in the east. This is a larger question worth discussing. I would suggest Shantanu to put this up as a discussion topic.
NREGA – is a pupulist scheme, which somehow links to bridging the urban – rural divide which successive govts are strivign to acheive. In short term, this is ok, but unless there are means of wealth creation one cant create jobs …adn hence in the longer term this will have to be relooked and revised. I am shure the likes of Dr.Singh, Montek Singh, Chidambaram, Kamalnath know this and are capable of addressing this.
I would not see even BJP scrapping this had they come to power..so in effect it is a futlie argument.
Do you agree that the Congress (I)-led UPA has attempted to systematically subvert institutions of state e.g. the CBI, the offices of Election Commissioner and President?
——
CBI:
It is all easy to criticise the govt which is at the centre to play politics. I would say cut thro thr hype and lets look at the powers of CBI objectively.
I do feel that CBI needs reforms and parties have used CBI, CoD to further their interests. But eventually it is the court which takes a call on any major decision and CBI can only collect data and present it, their recomendations are not binding on the counrt, rather it is true the other way around.
President office – i dont see any political party has played or even ventured to devalue the office of the president.
EC – again, look at the constitutional frame work of ECs and there are lots of checks and balances in place to see powers are not misused. The Navin Chawala case was rather hyped up, though i would say, i am not competent to answer what is the correct position on Navin Chawala issue, the legal community has had various views being expressed.
Do you believe that the fact of Congress (I) “High Command†giving tickets to certain criminals-turned politicians undermines Rahul Gandhi’s claim to “cleanse politics�
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This is rather a generalisation, cant attribute to Congress party alone. This has been in every party. It deepends on how one defines criminal activity. I would suggest to see a interesting debate between Kapil Sibal, Arun Jaitley and rest in Big fight and even in We the people were, both agreed to the need to define criminal activity and who should be allowed to contest and who not. There is a common ground on this between the two national parties.
and finally, do you have any data to support that the youth overwhelmingly voted in favour of Congress (I) – not perfect data, exit polls will do too…
—-
There were some data pointed out by NDTV last night. there were soem data which i picked up ….and i haev reported in my previous comments. I shall see if i can pull out more data specific to your question.
@ Hemant –
If you want to learn about Chhatrapati (not Raja!) Shivaji Maharaj (pls note the full appellation, anything less and I will send my local Shakha pramukh to visit you), you have to live in Maharashtra – 4 out of 10 years’ history books are devoted solely to Shivaji and the Maratha empire.
But, kidding aside, I am a big fan of Shivaji!!
Cheers
@Ashwin Kumaraswamy
Its shame! In democratic country this is happening. Rahul Gandhi may be as humble to giving up the throne. Late PM Rajiv Gandhi got the chair of PM in heir. No experience of politics. Only exploiting the situation of emotional country due to the loss of late PM Indira Gandhi, party made him PM. Now show me where did he fought the election? In next election in the name of young faces and new generation was introduced by Congress to accommodate Rajiv Gandhi to continue as PM. Due to his inexperience and immature decisions we know what happened. I feel sorry for that the young life was taken like that. We surely need experienced faces to rule the country, it comes with the age or young but very very smart.
In my home, I may be acting as good as Rahul and Priyanka so do i deserve Seat?
You said—Varun Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi are good cases of pedigre and how they have behaved —
I didn’t wanted to bring this in discussion but allow me to say now, what Indira Gandhi did to Menaka Gandhi was nice example of family values? Throwing a widow out of the home and that also along with the photo of Sanjeev gandhi and kid Varun? And I have never seen any feelings of family values in Rajiv Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi and Priyanka Gandhi. Arrogance and politics rules them.
I am just an observer. I have no interest in BJP or Congress. It is not the time for the BJP to come to rule as they lack charismatic leaders like Pilots, Gandhis, abdullhas and, Chauhan. Their leaders doesnot come from political background. They are still a ‘Bachha’ in front of shrewd(positively speaking) leaders of Congress.
@ Ashwin –
You are an apologist for the Congress – give it up. Your views about the BJP loses credence every time that you give Congress a pass on a sticky issue.
There is one topic that I feel really, really strongly about and that is the damage that the Congress have done to various institutions of our country – it is puerile to give the Congress a pass on the CBI and say that the courts will take a decision – how can the courts take a decision, if the case against (congress-supported) criminals have been weakened?
Indira Gandhi was the one who started this to consolidate her power and weaken all other institutions. I have not forgotten how the Congress used to dismiss opposition state governments, even, using Article 378 (?). Indira Gandhi even tried to abrogate to the cabinet the power to appoint all judges. Man, that woman was a natural dictator.
Other congress-walas have happily followed. The Mulayam-Mayawati CBI cases have been a disgrace to our justice system, as has been the Bofors one.
You do yourself no favours by white-washing everything that the Congress does.
Cheers
Check what privileges Robert Vadera has being the member of congress first family? I feel very sad that my country men who are at risk, does not deserve what Robert Vadera deserves.
@ Patriot
I am not saying Congress has not misused power. As for the issue of CBI – i can only say CBI can make recommendations, but it is not binding on the courts to accept it which is the absolute legal position.
Now let us assume, Congress did use pressure to subvert CBI investigations, they could still be challenged in the court of law and also is not binding. All that CBI does is gather inforamtion and present to the court and make sujective recomendations.
It is not as if Congress alone has misused this, other parties also have done the same. Hence i am saying the whole episode needs to be re-looked and there needs to be reforms in CBI.
To date there are countless casses of investigation CBI has handled and barring some stray incidences there has not been any incidence of influence exerted by the the ruling party be it Congress or be it BJP or any other party.
There were compalints both against Mulayam and Mayawati and hence it was refered to CBI by respective state governments. Had the govts choose they could haev got the investigation done by the state investigation departments (read CoDs). So all the tounge lashing on Congress wihout specific proof they have misused is a tad too deafitist in attitude.
@ Indian,
There is a level playing field if you are against dynastic politics you can contest against so called dynasties and educated the electroate on why they should vote for you.
The reason i am saying is it is not the fault of Sachin Pilot or a Rahul Gandhi that they were born into political famiies. Also they are not nominated members into parliament, rather they are elected by the people of India every 5yrs.
On Indira Gandhi throwing out Maneka, i would suggest get your facts correct. It was Maneka who walked out of Indira Gandhi. She was not happy with Rajic being annointed as the heir apparent and given the ticket to contest from Amethi.
Maneka had made all overtures to Indira and the best persosn to speak ont his issue is Kushwant Singh an all time critic of Indira Gandhi and a once close family friend of Maneka Gandhi.
@ Ashwin: You have touched on a number of issues in your various comments – on this post as well as elsewhere.
Let me ask you a direct question.
Do you believe there is something fundamentally wrong with the present political system? As in:
1] the influence of money and muscle power…
2] the routine violation of limits on campaign expenses…
3] the almost completely opaque candidate selection process…
4] the almost complete absence of national issues in electoral debate…
5] the presence of of criminal elements and black money in the electoral system…
6] the remarkable lack of participation by well-educated and privileged Indians in the process?
Note that I am not passing any judgement on either Congress(I) or BJP – or any other party for that matter.
This is a straight question: Do you believe something is terribly wrong with the present setup?
I would appreciate an honest response.
@ Shantanu
I am very happy that you have pulled out these questions Shantanu
I do very much beleive the standards of politics of politics as a means to serve the people and effectively provide a leadership for the betterment of the country has taken a nose dive in the last 35 years (i am knowing telling this, as Congress has been the ruling party for the majority of this period) but that does not mean political parties are the only ones to be balmed for the detriotiation of the standards and or ethics in public life.
If you are ok with it, i shall cite soem live examples that i have seen in Indian politics to substantiate my views. That means the post would be rather long.
1. Influence of money and muscle power:
There is no doubt in my mind that muscle, money and importantly caste/religion play a key role in Indian polity. The root cause of the problem is not the politicians, rather it is the people of India and politicians merely take advantage of the condition presented.
For E.g. in 2008 assembly elections in Karnataka a constituency called Arkalgud, the sitting MLA was A T Ramaswamy from JD(S) – well known in Karnataka for beign honest, hardworking and one who did a lot for his constituency. he got 100crs for his constituency in 3yrs for development work. But durign the 2008 elections people defeated him in the name of caste and money power. Lingayats voted for BJP because Yeddyurappa asked votes in the name of Lingayat caste, Congress candidate went around doling out money and there was a caste polarization, this eventually led to A T Ramaswamy defeat in the hands of the Congress candidate who is not known for developmental politics but for money and muscle power.
The strage aspect of this scenario was people asked for meoney when i accompained Ramaswamy during the campaigns…they were shameless in saying money today is important than any development constituency can see…but the very same people recetnly went and complained about the dist incharge BJP minister and Congress MLA for lack of constituency development.
I hope you get the paradox that candidates face. If one does not dole out money they dont get votes and if one has to dole out money he has to make money and hence politicians are pushed to being corrupt and after doling out such money, what rights to do people have in asking for development as they have sold their votes.
The reason i am citing this example is, Ramaswamy was not interested in contesting elections because JD(S) created a ruckus while transfering power to BJP as agreed earlier, and that eventually led to early elections and Ramaswamy was fed up with money, caste, muscle power being played out in politics. Likes of me and other proped him up for contesting today the result is things dont work as hunky dory and theoritical as we all want it to and score debating points either on TV or on blogs.
2. Routine Voilation of campaign expenses –
This happens almost regularly, only in cases like say Advani’s constituency or Sonia Gandhi and other high profile candidates constituency this might not happen, because political opponents know it is waste to spend money. The high profile candidates would have created a nicjhe for themselves with the constituents and they dont spend money either.
3. Opaque candidate selection process:
I dont agree with this, because this is a very subjective decisison process. All that matters is can the candidate win the elections on his or her own self. In constituencies (very few though) where people vote for party rather than candidates, there again the party decides based on various facotrs not logical in any way to field a candidate of their choice
4. National issues not debated in elections:
I dont agree with you, there is by and large a debate on one or the other national issue in every constituency. But the core of the cmapaign is based on the needs of the constituency or for that matter the state scenario. Afterall India is a confedration of states. The simple answer is Yes and No, varies by constituency and candidates.
5. Criminal ellement and presence of black money:
beyong a doubt this is an issue which all parties are trying to address atleast the criminal element of it. I do feel EC would be better in defining criminal element else it would be left for much interpretation. We should contribute to the definition.
6. Lack of participation of educated and privalaged Indians
There is lack of participation in the urban centres, but one cananot link in any way that educated and privalaged Indians always make the right decision i am afraid.
Also they are a small part of the electorate, they wowuld not have the fire power to change the couse of elections. May be few urban constituencies.
E.g. Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Hyd are a classic examples where this does not work, may be it can to an extent, but i doubt they have the numbers and their decision would always be the correct one (which ever way and which ever party that be).
Finally there is somethign wrong not just the political set up, but there is a lack of purpose in the people. They are seeing short term gains as against the long term benefits.
Also the generation after independence of India, lost mid way and the purpose and the sacrifice made by many fellow indians is a tad discredited. It is not to say that we have not made progress, but what cost has it come with politically, socially and culturally is a question.
For example things like being honest, owning up responsibilities, being accountable and many such qualities have been infected by and large (this includes me as well).
For me politics is not something i want to do for living but it is more of mission to bring back the values to our lives. I knowing say this that there might be a lot of negative qualities or values imbibed in me, it is a process of life where in i would like to learn and purify my mistakes and so help build an India for our future generation which would be vibrant and value based.
And this is not possible by one individual, at best i can try and make put my efforts to help myself and people around me, this is a cultural revolution which we all need to undergo one or the other point of time to help build a India for our future generation, else history and the future will not treat us kindly.
@Patriot I was referring to this:
“Thali said that of the 154 pages of the history text book of Std VII, most of the pages have been dedicated to the information on Mughals and other Muslim kings, whereas the history of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj who fought the Mughal aggressors has been concluded in just four lines.
http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?659904
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/2-chapters-in-History-text-book-under-review/articleshow/4540806.cms
Such things happen silently in congi rule while remember how media jumped in on NCERT during BJP rule?
(http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/aug/19varsha.htm)
@Ashwin –
“All that CBI does is gather inforamtion and present to the court and make sujective recomendations.”
Wow!!! That is the most Gobbles-ian view of the CBI that I have heard recently. The CBI is an investigation agency, like the State Police forces. It collects evidence, not information. And, it prepares a case for the Prosecutor to fight.
So, obviously, if you subvert the process by which CBI works, there is no case for the courts to consider. The Courts can take suo-moto notice and instruct the CBI to do better, but is that really what you want? And support? Subversion of justice?
WOW!!!!
@ Patriot
Evidence is part of the information making exercise and subjective recomendations is based on the case they have prepared on the back of the evidence they find. But the decisions taken by the CBI be it exonerating Jagdish Tytler and many such decisions are not binding on the court. Whereas the other way round, Courts decision is binding on the CBI.
The reason i say it is easy to criticize CBI because, they cant come out in defence of thmeselves. I guess barring Joginder Singh who hit out against former HD Devegowda no other CBI director has come out accusing.
Either the conclusion is Ex-CBI directors are all spineless or they know the background of every case before making suggestions/recommendations on every case.
Why do you automatically assume that the CBI is subservient to the political masters….by saying so you are casting doubts on the institution.
I do agree there needs a process to reform CBI, but that cant be based on the accusations of Amar Singh and one of his kind…I have said there might be cases for example the Mulayam Singh case was blown out of proportions by the media, but the truth of the matter was there was a complaint filed against Mulayam and the state govt headed by Mayawati asked the CBI to look at it. The same was the case on Taj Corridor scam where Mulayam asked CBI to file a case against Mayawati.
These political cases filed against each other reached its heights between DMK and AIADMK. Both the parties have taken much political mileage in doing so.
End of the matter is based on evry case sent to CBI they have to file a initial FIR and take it to court and based on what evidence or information the agency can provide Court takes the final decision.
If people want to see changes, either they give CBI the executive powers to prosecute ..or be happy with the existing system but make reforms on what cases and timelines they should be handled and what is a permissible recommendation.
Mulayam and Maywati who were at each others throat, now are supporting UPA from outside.
“In politics as on a sickbed men toss from side to side in hope of lying more comfortably” Goethe
“Secularism” won because congress was “secular”.
http://hindustatement.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/church-claims-credit-for-congress-crown/
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1257276
Mayawati crawls before Congress to offer support
Some interestign extracts from the web site write up.
Mayawati crawls before Congress to offer support……
Interestingly, she pointed out that prime minister Manmohan Singh had called her his chhoti behn (younger sister) when she called up to congratulate him on Saturday
…….
Whatever Mayawati might say, the fact remains that apart from saving the BSP vote bank, her biggest priority now is to save her own skin. Her declaration of unconditional support to the UPA regime is seen as a bid to keep the Congress in good humour lest it should initiate action in the corruption cases pending against her……
The Taj Heritage Corridor case against Mayawati and her close lieutenant Naseemuddin Siddiqui is not buried yet. Though the governor refused the CBI permission to proceed against her, PILs against this “clean chit” are pending in the courts.
The disproportionate assets case is another thorn in Mayawati’s side. The CBI and the income-tax department are hot on her trail and she could be in trouble the day the Congress decides to take her to task for her severe outbursts against the party and against Rahul Gandhi during the election campaign…………………….
Another one is also interesting.
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1257275
Church claims credit for Congress crown.
The Left is yet to come to terms with its humiliating defeat in Kerala. If the CPI(M) politburo wants any answers, the Catholic Church has it. Kerala Catholic Bishops’ Conference, which openly campaigned for the Congress in the run-up to the elections, claims it is their victory………..
Please read this at the above web site. It is really very funny.
Kya Zamana hai Hind Paar. Jina Naaz hai Hind Paar woh kaha hai
36 article response by JM Smith in “Is India heading towards Christian state”
His web site quote and advise for translating the book he has quoted in other article mailed into Indian languages must be done after seeing the above two posts. It is really sad to see this happen in India and that too in a highly literate state of Kerala.
What price literacy?
@ Ashwin K.
Oh ya! I must correct my facts! I thought I was referring all this facts from Kushwant singh article which I read long time back and that also with pictures. Where all her belongings and photo frame of Sanjay Gandhi was lying in pile outside the residence of Indira Gandhi. Than Ambika her sister came and took her. So you thought I was just kidding here without knowing facts? So woman abusing starts from PM homes? And PM homes is no different from many homes in India throwing widows out of the homes. Everyone wants quiet and dumb bahu? And no love for Grand Son? Is this what not expected from first family of Congress, for you who is the only educated family of India. I think you must read many facts on Maneka Gandhi.
One thing is very very sure majority of Christians will only vote Congress today and tomorrow. Not because they are against Hindu and hindutva. It is in their best interest(positive speaking) to vote Sonia Gandhi’s family. They will get satisfaction of allying with their churches and international community. If we are in their place we would also do the same. aren’t we?
@ Indian
Your comments sound as if you were part of the family. Even the harshest critics of Indira Gandhi and the ardent supporters of Meneka have not made comments that indicate anythign close to what you are saying.
Also it is well published that Meneka nurtured ambitions of political office even during the hey days of Sanjay Gandhi. She overtly tried to impress upon Indira Gandhi, who had her intentions of getting Rajiv annointed and eventually when she did it, Meneka walked out and created a hue and cry.
It is also well published Sonia took care of Varun as a kid more than Meneka and this inturn has been acknowledged by Varun and neither has Meneka denied this.
I am not sure what point you want to drive here. Rahul and Sonia Gandhi atleast have not displayed anything that is against or belettling the Hindu tradition.
@Ashwin K.
Thats fine because I am also not much interested in it. And its not part of the discussion either. Just to inform you if you open the pages of olden days you will get much written about it. I don’t want to drive any point here as I know you also dont know many things written about. I can go far and far, but I want to put an end. I feel from my side its not good to speak too much about who are not with us.
The reason you gave would not be digested by many because truth never came out properly. Happy!
@ Ashwin
Rahul and Sonia Gandhi atleast have not displayed anything that is against or belettling the Hindu tradition.
Let me ask this question in reverse. Is there anything they do which is not to belittle the Hindu tradition?
The Hindu tradition is Ashwin, to uphold the truth, and that’s they last thing Gandhi family ever did.
And I am not talking about corruption. That we grant to Gandhi family. They can do all the corruption they want. The truth they deny here is the entire history of India, the entire chapter when they were persecuted and hunted like animals, by the Islamic invaders. If that’s not denying Hindu tradition, I don’t know what is…
Interesting news piece on Maneka Gandhi
@ Avinash , The news item above is good one.
***
@ Ashwin, In 1982 March 31st , Varun Gandhi was 2 yrs old. You say, Sonia G took care of Varun as kid. Kid is generally upto 4 to 5 yrs. Generally mothers take care of their baby till age of 2 yrs till they know what is what and more so in such a highly placed family they will have servants, secys. Maneka , the new item says was thrown out of the house when Varun was 2 yrs old. So when did the take care of Sonia G happen?
Mr Ashwin, Better do your arithmetic properly. I know you will cook something new now. I am ready for it.
@ Ashwin –
“Either the conclusion is Ex-CBI directors are all spineless or they know the background of every case before making suggestions/recommendations on every case.
Why do you automatically assume that the CBI is subservient to the political masters….by saying so you are casting doubts on the institution. ”
Yes, I do so assume that they are spineless.
And, yes I do so assume that that they are subservient.
Please read the recent set of articles on the CBI by the Indian Express. Of course, the Attorney General of India (a political appointee) is as much to blame as the CBI. If you can not find the links, let me know and I will post them here.
It is not so much that the CBI requires reform but that the CBI has to be removed from political control and made an independent institution. Do you think your precious Congress will agree to that? The bill is due to come up again this session.
Cheers
@ Ashwin (#57): “Why do you automatically assume that the CBI is subservient to the political masters?”
I think you know better than to ask that question.
Ashwin
Still are you doing the arithmetic to my query.
@Avinash, thanks for the link.
@Suhas, It will take time and experience for Ashwin to come to the conclusion on Nehru-Gandhi family.
@Ashwin, its nothing against you or any individual its about political family who gets less than 0 marks on family front. Arrogance, power and politics rules them.
Now the link has been produce to you, so I am asking, Indira Gandhi did not stop Maneka Gandhi when she was leaving the home? If they would have following the Hindu tradition they could have said, ‘ok, Maneka you get the Amethi ticket, support and love’. Was that so hard to offer? “Gar Ki Murghi Dal Barabar” when they have charismatic foreign born lady Sonia Gandhi, who need less appealing Maneka Gandhi. Right! I have very high respect for Maneka Gandhi same as any other widow women in the world, whose rights has been denied by rude and cruel in-laws for safe guarding their power, property or money. That was the point brought me here. Expand the life of other family members of Nehru-Gandhi-Vadera, you will find who else were the victim of power, arrogance and politics.
I agree its a non-political issue buts its an example how far educated people can go for power and politics.
@Indian
You mean Nehru-Gandhi-Maino-Vadera?
Ashwin
Waiting for your reply. Do you want 5 days , 1 day, or T20/T20. The ball is in your court. If Satyameva not Jayate, then I will have to apply Naipaulian logic. Take your time. This is not an exam. Search on google well. Do your research well. Indian , your inputs make this debate more exciting. The incident which Indian decribes, is just like giving Marconi a Nobel Prize ignoring Jagdish Chandra Bose, who has been recently given credit over Marconi.
If you reply well, Ashwin ,we will appreciate you?
Indian, I did not realise while posting , the issue you have raised of supporting the bereaved lady then.
The first family should have set a precedent by supporting a bereaved lady. This could have been a good example set, later to be emulated by others. Infact , it would have created a great impact on the empowerment of Indian women as she was indigenous.
@ Indian
Let us agree to dis agree, for me i give them higher marks and you can give 0 on 10, these are all subjective and individual preferences.
@ Suhas
I dont need to cook any news, i am merely saying what i have seen and been told by the media. As for your arithmetic, you can do it yourself, But love, affection and care arae not based on any arithmetic but they are impulsive and stay for every no matter the gesture is even just for a second.
The stark silence and absolute commitment not to speak out against cousins and family between Sonia, Varun, Rahul, Priyanka and Meneka – shows their commitment to their larger family. So when they have that agreement and have decided even if there are difference not to wash their dirty linen in public, what do we have to do so.
@ Shantanu on the issue of CBI – honestly beleive CBI acts independent in majority of the cases referred to them, but in politically motivated cases, they are left wating as they will be blamed for what ever they do or dont do.
@ Pankaj Saxena: On Hindu tradition
I know what is hindu tradition and and how much truth all the hindus have upheld – dont make comments for the heck of it. Show some sagacity and graciousness in BJP’s defeat.
Ask oneself before making such big statements…on how truthful we are all if not to ourselves.
@ Ashwin, you wrote (in response to Suhas):
“…i am merely saying what i have seen and been told by the media.”
Ashwin, I hope that most readers of this blog, including you – are looking for the “truth” – beyond what is “told” to them by the media.
I am puzzled by your obstinate stance to change your view even in the face of clear evidence.
Secondly, you wrote: “The stark silence and absolute commitment not to speak out against cousins and family between Sonia, Varun, Rahul, Priyanka and Meneka – shows their commitment to their larger family.”
You appear to be contradicting your self. In your comment #64, you said “Maneka walked out and created a hue and cry”. Did she speak against the family in this hue and cry or did she not?
And finally, “…but in politically motivated cases, they (CBI) are left wating as they will be blamed for what ever they do or dont do.”
So you agree with Patriot’s assumption about CBI being subservient to political masters at least in political cases? (ref your comment at #57)
and finally, you made a remarkable statement at #53, which I had missed:
There is no doubt in my mind that muscle, money and importantly caste/religion play a key role in Indian polity. The root cause of the problem is not the politicians, rather it is the people of India…”
If you do believe in this statement (and assuming that do want things to change), are you taking any steps in this direction?
Dear Shantanu,
What is this hullabalu about the UPA winning and the NDA losing. OOp’s my first mistake. The BJP losing and the UPA winning!
The truth is the NDA has lost let us accept it. But has the Cong. won. It is a very debatable point. Without Mamata no WB, without DMK no Tamilnadu which means a clean 18 seats. Without IUML in Kerala another 12 seats.
So has the Cong. won or has it piggybacked on its allies.
I leave the question open.
Looking at the BJP; It was poor crass greed that it hoped to get the PM gaddi.
Friends, one should understand that the BJP has a PATHETIC and SAD PRESENCE in FIVE major states in India. AP, TN, Kerala, Orissa and WB and the BJP expects to win. Heh, come of it.
If translated into number of seats it means on a average of ten seats per state it means a WEAKNESS of 50 SEATS!!
and the BJP wants to rule the nation; What a joke. I may support it but one should not be STUPID and BLIND to the TRUTH.
Unless the BJP gets its act going in all these states it is CURTAINS for the BJP for ever and ever. Shall we say REST IN PEACE!
It has got Five years to set things right. The BJP top brass may play the blame game but they should sit and have a deep look at the TRUTH and correct the path, which is still not too late.
All this “Secularism, Democracy, Development, Clean Image, Leadership” has won the day is only a lot of “HOGWASH”. Everybody knows it!
Let us not fool ourselves!
One paper show cases “Develop or Perish” Development has played its part. Then the BJP and TDP should have won in 2004 itself!
Triumph of “Secularism”! TOI/22nd May Page 9 – “CPM leadership is worried about shift in MUSLIM VOTE in West Bengal. Hey am I stupid or is that we are all stupid; TOI/21st. May/ Page 6 – ” MULIM LEAGUE gives REDS the run in Kerala! Must a new Brand of Secularism that we in the Blog are not aware of and only the Media ia aware of.
Triumph of “Development” -! TOI/21st May/Page1 – ” The rout WB is not just because of the “POPULAR” if RECKLESS ANTI-INDUSTRY politics of Mamata!
Truimph over leadership! IE/22nd May/Main Center page – “Maya got her CASTE Arithmetic wrong! Again TOI/22nd May/Page8 – ” NEW CASTE outfit “Kongunadu Munnetra Peravai” in TN played spoiler!
We Indians must be really STUPID and DUMB. We “Bloody INDIANS” do not even know what true CASTE, Development, and Leadership is all about which apparently is known only to the Christian based Western Press, and we want to have “Democracy”.
HA!
HA!
Sorry Shri Shantanu, it is all in black and white that the cauldron is all the same. The western media plays its part to the hilt and we are left with all the dregs of nothingness and stupidity.
We Indians are the losers. Let us learn to live with Reality.
Regards,
vck
Shantanu, Yes Ashwin must give evidence like Avinash in 67. Then as later Avinash says , it looks like a sophisticated version of Deepa Mehta’s Water replayed in 67.
Bit busy to answer all. I will not reply by impulse further. Think and reply.
@ Shantanu
On the issue of Maneka Gandhi and Varun:
If we are looking for the truth, unless the individuals come out in open, i am afraid none would know the truth. Also we would need to listen to both sides of the story to determine what is the truth. Sadly the parties involved have remained silent apart from that one incidence where Maneka stormed out of Prime Ministers home.
I am not changing my stance: I can only say, please refer to reports and views from Kushwant Singh, then a close family friend of Maneka. Also Varun Gandhi himself has made various comments before entring politics. Also the other character closer to this issue is PC Alexander who was close to Indira Gandhi, Kamalnath and Ambika Soni (Sanjay Gandhi’s then close associates). Everyone have veered and maintained a stoic silence and few reacted as Maneka’s initial outburst has done her no good.
Lets face the fact was there were two ladies who had their own agenda. Indira wanted to brign Rajiv to the forefront of politics and Maneka thought she would be the automatic choice in Congress hirearchy after Sanjay Gandhi. Rightly or wrongly we saw Rajiv annointed as the heir to Indira, and this meant Meneka either had to work under Rajiv and saw in the longer run her ambition would not be fulfilled in Congress until Rajiv was around. This lead her to come out and create a hue adn cry, that is the fact, ever since then she has maintained a silence this silence was due to her understanding the reality that she stands no where outside Congress party. She might win, but cant be a deciding factor as Sanjay Gandhi vichr manch which lost badly in various elections after Indira’s death.
May be had she been in Congress and after Rajiv’s death, she could have been the leader of the party, as she had her associates and friends like Ambika Soni, Kamalnath would haev propped her up, as Sonia Gandhi was reluctant to join politics. So i am not changing my stance here.
On the issue of CBI on political case:
I am just saying, I have sympathies with CBI on political cases as either way they are blamed. But i do maintain that the larger santity of the instituion can be held up. It is wasy to say there is political interference, but i am tryign to put things into context to understand the CBI position and views. If they can get things in their investigation which is explosive, if they want they systematically put it out to media and or others to really bring justice. The reason they have not done this can be either they dont have anything or if they have they have sold themselves, which brings back to my earlier question on the morality issue of the society in general. Blaming is easy, but addressing is where i am trying to get. Sadly we have become a society where, all that matters is our personal benefit without any consideration for the larger society.
On the issue of change: this is not we can advise to people, we have show this by actions and hope it rubs of to people. This is not which can be taught, but it needs to be shown. This is more of cultural revolution which we all need to address in what ever walk of life we are in.
@ Indian
My response to you points:
its nothing against you or any individual its about political family who gets less than 0 marks on family front. Arrogance, power and politics rules them.
—-
I can only say, you are entitled to your opinion.
Now the link has been produce to you, so I am asking, Indira Gandhi did not stop Maneka Gandhi when she was leaving the home? If they would have following the Hindu tradition they could have said, ‘ok, Maneka you get the Amethi ticket, support and love’. Was that so hard to offer? “Gar Ki Murghi Dal Barabar†when they have charismatic foreign born lady Sonia Gandhi, who need less appealing Maneka Gandhi. Right! I have very high respect for Maneka Gandhi same as any other widow women in the world, whose rights has been denied by rude and cruel in-laws for safe guarding their power, property or money. That was the point brought me here. Expand the life of other family members of Nehru-Gandhi-Vadera, you will find who else were the victim of power, arrogance and politics.
—-
What hindu tradition are we talking?? There is also another hindu tradition that you conviniently seem to forget, Eldest son or th emale member of the family gets to take over the mantle – there are a lot of contradictions my friend. Hence i would say lets keep the tradition out of the equation. I have nothing against Meneka Gandhi, but i do have issues with Varun Gandhi and his now (in)famous speech.
The larger issue if un interupted power gives way for arrogance is true in certain examples. I dotn see the same in Sonia or Rahul gandhi as of now, tomorow what changes would take place i am not sure – but for me today, i dont see any issues with the Congress first family.
@ Suhas,
I dont want to get personal in the discussion here. As i am now immune to the taunts in the world wide web, as none of these discussions would materially make any difference in reality.
As for your questions, i have tried by best to answer based on my limnited knowledge on Indian politics and Congress first family. Also i not here to score brownie debating points, like soem BJP and Congress members who suit 24×7 TV and have no mass following.
As for research, i am not into your version of google search or theoritical and academic fun of discussing politics. I beleive in participating in the process of politics and speaking to people, to this effect my views are a representation of views adn opinions expressed by the larger Indians in my travels across India. Not to pat my back, but i have been an avaid traveller in the rural adn urban India. This is my way of trying to understadn the complexities of India.
@ Shantanu, Suhas, and others…
On the issue of Maneka Gandhi – the best person who can give a unbiased opinion would be Kushwant Singh, may be one of you if you are in Delhi next try adn get in touch with kushwant Singh and we can get to know more. Or if we can get hold of
PC Alexander or HY Sharada Prasad who recently died. it would be an interesting case.
I have seen Avinash quoting a news paper clip, lets face it, it is a prime time news, i am sure everyone would have reported adn talked about it. But if we are looking for the truth, lets get past the news paper columns and speak to those characters involved or connrected to the characters to understadn the truth.
@Ashwin K.
—-the best person who can give a unbiased opinion would be Kushwant Singh, may be one of you if you are in Delhi next try adn get in touch with kushwant Singh and we can get to know more. Or if we can get hold of
PC Alexander or HY Sharada Prasad who recently died. it would be an interesting case.—
Great idea! So Maneka is not the right person because she can be biased? For the story of Maneka Gandhi one has to believe Kushwant Singh, PC Alexander or HY Sharada Prasad but not Maneka Gandhi?. What was in media and mewspapaer was not confirmed by Maneka, and she is not wise enough to speak about herself. She may lie? Right! that you want to say?. Everything is open its you who cannot take up the truth and wants to run after Kushwant Singh and so and so.
–I have nothing against Meneka Gandhi, but I do have issues with Varun Gandhi and his now (in)famous speech.—
Why do you worry about Varun’s speech? he is not Congressi? Right! OR You just want to make a bold statement, see what kind of candidate BJP has and BJP is?
Everyone makes mistake he will also learn. Dont be after him just for his speech. He already paid by being in the jail. Not happy with that?
—lets get past the news paper columns and speak to those characters involved or connrected to the characters to understadn the truth–
Maneka Gandhi was the main character here. If that would have been untrue, she could have defended her stand by now. She is silent means it is the truth. This is not just one column. Numerous papers and magizine have carried this facts back then,because that was the truth. Do some research?
Ashwin you have ‘wriggled’ all the question being asked to you without accepting the truth. This is the height one can expect from congressi only.
—-I can only say, you are entitled to your opinion—-
My opinion matters much much more than yours, because I am the voice of the public, not Congress.
@ v.c.krishnan
“ Many of us, utterly overcome by Tamas, the dark and heavy demon of inertia, are saying nowadays that it is impossible, that India is decayed, bloodless and lifeless, too weak ever to recover; that our race is doomed to extinction. It is a foolish and idle saying. No man or nation need be weak unless he chooses, no man or nation need perish unless he deliberately chooses extinction.
For what is a nation? What is our mother-country? It is not a piece of earth, nor a figure of speech, nor a fiction of the mind. It is a mighty Shakti, composed of the Shaktis of all the millions of units that make up the nation, just as Bhawani Mahisha Mardini sprang into being from the Shakti of all the millions of gods assembled in one mass of force and welded into unity. The Shakti we call India, Bhawani Bharati, is the living unity of the Shaktis of three hundred million people; but she is inactive, imprisoned in the magic circle of Tamas, the self-indulgent inertia and ignorance of her sons. To get rid of Tamas we have but to wake the Brahma within.
What is it that so many thousands of holy men, Sadhus and Sannyasis, have preached to us silently by their lives? What was the message that radiated from the personality of Bhagawan Ramakrishna Paramhansa? What was it that formed the kernel of the eloquence with which the lion-like heart of Vivekananda sought to shake the world? It is this, that in every one of these three hundred millions of men, from the Raja on his throne to the coolie at his labour, from the Brahmin absorbed in his Sandhya to the Pariah walking shunned of men, God Liveth. We are all gods and creators, because the energy of God is within us and all life is creation; not only the making of new forms is creation, but preservation is creation, destruction itself is creation. It rests with us what we shall create; for we are not, unless we choose, puppets dominated by Fate and Maya; we are facets and manifestations of Almighty Power.”
– Sri Aurobindo, Bhawani Mandir 1905
Check out this link, it is in four parts –
http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1103&Itemid=1
@ Indian
I am not here to score debating brownie points as i posted earlier. Also let me clarify at this spoint of time i am not a member of any political party.
I am in the process of planning my political entry and i wish it happens through Congress, but to be very true i am not sure what is in store for the future.
Comming back to the issue of Maneka Gandhi, without going into the details, you argument is flawed. As you are assuming that Maneka was correct just because she came out of the Indira Gandhi’s house. But has anyone botherd to understand what was Indira Gandhi’s position or the circumstances that led to her walking out – hence i suggested to get a holistic view on the issue, we would be better to gather information from those who over close to both the individuals in question, rather than paper reports. E.g. No one expected that there would be a split in Ambani family but it did happen, and till date barring the family and their wellwishers the others haev just specualted why the split. Hence rather than trying to make arguments for the sake of it from both the sides, the best option is to address it holistically.
Also, it is the people of India who have voted back Congress led UPA to run the country for the next 5yrs. Remember after elections, the elected representatives should represent the people and address their concerns as well as provide the leadership to the country.
I am sad that educated articulate people like you, try to create awedge between parties or cast apperhensions on the voice of the people.
I have not wriggled any questions asked to me, if research is secondary research alone my friend, than i guess i would advise you to do your research on research methodologies. Also i would suggest you to address the issue holistically.
In my personal opinion, the issue of Maneka Gandhi and Nehru Gandhi family was a family issue, and i beleive we dont have any rights to talk about their personal matters. As electorate we should be more bothered about the governance we expect.
Also the issue of Varun, i have nothing against him personally, but his speech was not proper. Had he issued an apology there would not have been a problem. Again, i would suggest you to make your secondary research where NDA and BJP leaders themselves have openly come out against him after elections. It is my problem as it affects the communal harmony in India.
I am not here to turn a blind eye, and just because you state some news reports does not mean that these news reports are beyound the realms of authenticity and they are the set facts which cant be refuted.
Your last comments were in bad taste. You might not agree to my views so be it, but atleast try to show some restraint and try to understand issues holistacally. Also the issue we are discussing has nothing to do with the factors of elections which is the primary topic of discussion.
@Ashwin K.
—-What hindu tradition are we talking?? —
This are the days, the way you have asked, ‘what Hindu traditions are we talking about’? Beautiful! Way to go my friend.
@ Indian,
You seem to conviniently quote one form of Hindu tradition and leave out the other hindu tradition.
I am proud to be a Hindu, and i am not here to be taught how a Hindu has to be. You are making the same mistake as what RSS/VHP/BJP try to make in the name of hindutva.
So lets leave it at that.
@Ashwin
Can you enlighten us, what ‘your form’ of Hindu tradition is? And why have you decided to call it Hindu?
@Ashwin K
It was you who brought the issue of Rahul and Varun behaviour. And who is the good child. Right!. Why you pissed off when I showed whole lot a rot. Also you showed me who belittle Hindu tradition?Or not?
Nehru-Gandhi for me, they were and are just a servant of the country because people have elected them to serve not to expand and enhance their brand and family value.Never in my mind I thought I was debating with you in bad taste but very sure I was concerned the way you showed how they are above the country. If something hurt you than tell me what point was in bad taste, I am ready to take away.
I understand your position when everyone is questioning you from every side.
@ all
I respect Ashwin for being here and trying to answer all the questions. Generally people like to talk only to those who agree with them. But Ashwin stays and talks to us nicely even when many of us disagree with him. Let’s respect that.
I agree!
Guys: Thanks for the debate/discussion and for maintaining decorum…Pl. do not get personal.
And lets give Ashwin a breather…he is single-handedly responding to all the comments.
***
@ Ashwin: Take your time.
@ Indian,
Varun and Rahul issue – i still maintain Rahul has shown great sagacity and maturity in the way he has evolved and this party comes from the apperciation of things around, when compared to Varun Gandhi, who did not bother to even apologies if his comments have hurt anyone. This clearly shows the difference in opinions.
As for the issues on Maneka and first family of Congress – all i maintain is, i have an opinion that ia based on my understanding rights or wrongly, the same with you. But until we look at the issue holistically your quest for truth cant come out. Also quoting news papers does mean they are facts – they just show that there was an incidence. Hence dont declare anyone guilty without hearing out the complete story, hence the suggestion to speak to those people who were around the time and close to the two main characters in this plot.
The fixation of Nehru Gandhi family either supporting them or opposing them is legendary. So no matter how much we discuss here and what reasons we give or not give, the fact of the matter is they have been repeatedly elected by the people of India to serve and provide leadership. This does not mean they are above the country as you have indicated. People of India showed this in 1977, 1989 and again in 1996. But it is also a reality, they have a appeal crossing communities and pan India, which very few political leaders have acquired (the others are Atalji, Advaniji, Modi, George Fernandes, Lalu, Mayawati etc). An obsession towards them is not because of naming schemes, but because of the tragidies, blunders, contributions and bevaviour of theirs.
I have no issues with people disagreeing with my views – but lets face it guys, what ever adjective we give to them, the family has been the cynosure of public be it in office of outside office (You should read my blogpost “master stroke” – which talks about Sonia’s renunciation questioning if it was a strategy or a genunity”.
@ Ashwin
Can you re-read my comments again. where did I justified Varun’s doing. I was just replying you, for questions you raised. I was just protecting him from the over glory and shadow of Rahul. Every nice human beings does that. Right! Because someone is good that doesn’t mean start comparing him with bad. I do care for victims but I am more worried about the way accused is profiled bad bad bad. He may have got wrong, so what? everyone in their life time must have done something wrong. I pray from my heart to God to Guide him. Thats all he wants, it don’t necessitates me to give Rahul full marks. Because, I have seen many good people in my life, Rahul and Gandhi family is not only one which I have to look up to. This sorry state of affair is for rural ethnic Indians. Because tragedies are everyones part of the life in India.
And please give me a break when you say –It is my problem as it affects the communal harmony in India.–So now onwards any disharmony in India will have a new chapter with Varun?
—-As for the issues on Maneka and first family of Congress – all i maintain is, i have an opinion that ia based on my understanding rights or wrongly, the same with you. But until we look at the issue holistically your quest for truth cant come out. Also quoting news papers does mean they are facts – they just show that there was an incidence. Hence dont declare anyone guilty without hearing out the complete story, hence the suggestion to speak to those people who were around the time and close to the two main characters in this plot.—
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020210/spectrum/book5.htm
By Khuswant singh and it also shows who were around at that time.
Maneka and Akbar Ahmed decided to launch the Sanjay Vichar Manch. Mrs Gandhi did not know how to express her disapproval of an organisation professing to propagate her son’s ideals. The text of Maneka’s speech at the inaugural function (which Maneka claims had been approved byMrs Gandhi) was telegraphed to London by Rajiv. Mrs Gandhi decided she had got the opportunity she had waited for all these months to get rid of her turbulent daughter-in-law.
Mrs Gandhi returned fromLondon on the morning of 28 March 1984 — determined to call the shots.When Maneka came to greet her, she dismissed her curtly: ‘I will speak to you later.’ Word was sent to her that she was not expected to join the family for lunch and the food would be sent to her in her room. About 1 p.m another message was sent to her that the Prime Minister would like to see her. Maneka was prepared for a dressing down. She was in the sitting room when Mrs Gandhi walked in barefoot. She ordered Dhawan and Dhirendra Brahmachari to come in as witnesses to what she had to say to Maneka. According to Maneka she was fuming with rage and was barely comprehensible as she screamed, wagging her finger at Maneka. ‘You will get out of this house immediately.’ Maneka assumed an air of innocence and asked, ‘Why? What have I done?’ Mrs Gandhi screamed back, ‘I heard every word of the speech you made!’ Maneka added, ‘It was cleared by you.’ This caused another outburst. Mrs Gandhi accused her of disobeying her wishes, and for good measure added, ‘There was venom in every word you spoke. Get out this minute. Get out!’ she shrieked. ‘The car has been ordered to take you to your mother’s house.’Maneka stood her ground.She did not want to go to her mother’s house and needed time to pack. ‘You will go where you are told. Your things will be sent to you later,’ said Mrs Gandhi and again used strong words for Amteshwar. Maneka started sobbing and left for her room shouting back that she would not allow her mother to be insulted. Mrs Gandhi followed her barefooted on the gravel road shouting within the hearing of the staff and sentries outside; ‘Get out! Get out!’ Meanwhile, Feroze Varun had been taken to Mrs Gandhi’s room.
Maneka’s friends got busy spreading the word round to the press. Before going to the Prime Minister’s house Ambika rang me up to tell me what was happening to her sister and to spread the information. By 9 pm a crowd of photographers and reporters, including foreign correspondents, began assembling outside the gates. Mrs Gandhi always had a healthy dread and hatred of the foreign press. The police, which had been amassed at different points of approach to the house, had not been fully briefed about whom to stop and whom to let through.
Ten minutes later Ambika and her brother arrived at the house. For the first time in eight years they were stopped. Word of their arrival was sent to Mrs Gandhi and she was told that Ambika was talking to the pressmen. Their car was allowed to enter and the two went into Maneka’s room.They found Maneka in tears, trying to put whatever she could into her trunks. Mrs Gandhi suddenly walked in and ordered Maneka to leave without taking anything. Ambika spoke out, ‘She won’t leave, it is her house.’ Mrs Gandhi’s dislike of Ambika was tinged with fear of the girl’s sharp tongue. ‘This is not her house,’ shouted Mrs Gandhi, ‘this is the house of the Prime Minister of India. She cannot bring people here without my permission. In any case, Ambika Anand, I don’t want to speak to you’. Ambika was not the one to be cowed down. ‘You have no right to speak to my sister like this. This is Sanjay’s house and she is Sanjay’s wife. So it is her house. No one can order her out of it.’ Mrs Gandhi began to fumble for words and to cry. ‘I did not tell her to get out; she is leaving on her own,’ she said at one stage. ‘I have never told a lie in my life,’ she protested. ‘You have never told the truth in your life,’ retaliated the two sisters now emboldened by each other’s presence.The fight went out of Mrs Gandhi; she began to cry hysterically and had to be escorted out of the room by Dhirendra Brahmachari. Thereafter, messages had to be conveyed through the hapless Dhawan who received his share of tongue-lashing from the two girls — as well as being rewarded for his pains by being bitten by Maneka’s Irish Wolfhound Sheba, who had been upset by the excitement.
Left to themselves, the two sisters planned their strategy and time-schedule for departure. They ordered lunch and watched a film starring Amitabh Bachhan on their VCR at full blast so that Mrs Gandhi who was in the neighbouring room could know they did not give a damn. Every time Dhawan came in to plead with them to leave, they presented him with a new demand. The dogs had to be fed. The dogs were fed. When Dhawan failed to dissuade the girls from taking away anything, Mrs Gandhi came in with Brahmachari to order a search of everything they had packed.Maneka insisted that if there was going to be a search of her belongings it would take place on the road for all the press to see. The trunks outside the room were deliberately opened for pressmen to see and photograph by cameras outside the gate fitted with telescopic lenses. Another round of accusations and counter-accusations followed.
By now Mrs Gandhi was no longer mistress of the situation. Rajiv accompanied by Arun Nehru took over. They summoned the security officer, N.K. Singh, and ordered him to throw out the two sisters. Being a shrewd man, N.K. Singh asked for the order to be put in writing. Neither Rajiv nor Arun Nehru would commit themselves on paper. Verbal requests by N.K. Singh were turned down by the girls who wanted their luggage, dogs, and now also Feroze Varun who had a fever, to be sent ahead of them. Mrs Gandhi knew she had been beaten and gave in down the line.
@Ashwin
My reply is not to let you down. You and me know its nothing against each other. So please take it easy. I can go far and far. But I will stop here. Thanks and take care!
@Shantanu It long comment but last comment.
Indian, will read the book cited.
@Ashwin
There is also another hindu tradition that you conviniently seem to forget, Eldest son or th emale member of the family gets to take over the mantle.
—
Here we go with Hindu bashing again. How very convenient? When you don’t have any proof to substantiate why she did what she did then blame it on “Hindu tradition”. This so called “Hindu tradition” that you are talking about above, can you please give your references? What scripture says so?
On the contrary to your Eldest son theory, I would like to bring up these facts from our past to everyone’s notice: The reason why Aryavrat was renamed as Bharat during Dwapar Yug. The reason why Maharaj Bharat chose Bharadwaj son Bhumanyu as his successor. The reason why King Pandu was chosen over Dhritrashtr.
Karm, Janam se bada hota hai, that’s the Bharatiya Hindu Tradition. We all know what happened when King Shantanu or Regent King Dhritrastr didn’t follow this tradition because of their Mahatvakansha.
—
@OT
You know what I have noticed these days while talking to any of secular extremists. If something bad happens then it is termed as Hindu tradition/ideology, if something is neutral then it is termed as Indian tradition but if something good happens then it is Secular tradition.
Take the case of this Islamic extremist Zakir Naik, a proponent of Wahabi ideology and infamous for bringing out some fake guy posing as Shankracharya to fool & mislead Hindus and for disrespecting Sri Sri Ravi Shankar ji on public platform. When he used to run down Hinduism and openly supported Osama, no body gave two hoots about it. But the moment the guy goes berserk and says something about Mohamed. Oh all hell breaks loose. Urdu News channel NDTV is going head over heals running him down but still calling him a Vidvaan. What a BS channel! Islamist radicals are bringing out fatwas. Secular Rudalis are on TV giving speeches against him.
Gujarat govt. postpones the release of vitriolic Hindu-demonizing movie Firaaq. There are usual shouts of Hindu fundamentalism and suppression of freedom of speech. But when Christian Radical groups protest the release of Tom Hanks “Angels and Demons”, just like they did during “Da Vinci Code” in the past, without even watching it. Oh we are secular state. Can’t hurt them minorities. So ban it. MF Hussain draws filth then it is termed as art and he is decorated with Phd by Maulana Arjun Singh himself at public funded Jamia Islamia. But when Statesman reprints Johann Hari’s article questioning various Religions including Islam. Its Editors are attacked by Muslim radicals. Oh we are secular state. Can’t hurt them minorities. So they are arrested in Kolkatta and forced to apologize. What a bunch of hypocrites! Cheh..
The blame has to be taken on Indians. We fall the feet of Goras and Goris too much. Even Hindi film lyrics is all about Goris. Is it not slavish? Even a new wave film had lyrics like ” Gori tera Gav bada Pyara” . Now where is the point in bringing a Gori to a Gav.
This Khuswant Singh book in the web link by Indian has been read by myself. It is good book.
@ Indian
No one is branding Varun bad, but people do make mistakes and they learn from it. All i meant here was he should have showed more caution when making public sppeches.
Also there is no point over glorifying Rahul Gandhi – he has worked hard for his party and it was his duty to do so. My reason that the Rahul capturing the imagination of the youths, cant be delined either, but i would not say that it is “the” only reason for UPA to come back to power.
Maneka Gandhi issue, i need not get let down. But it would also be interesting to speak to Kushwant Singh on why Maneka and his friendship soured to such an extent that he had to say “Varun made those comments because it shows how he has been bought up and groomed” this comments of his was recently showcased in NDTV.
Also whey is R K Dhawan and N K Singh have maintained a studied silence (NK Singh does not need to worry as he is not involved with Congress).
All we can say it was a matter of two strong ladies and one got the better of the other. This shows that they are mortals and same has happened in many of our Indian families rightly or wrongly. This in now way diminishes the contributions Indira Gandhi.
If you want to prove that this incidence meant that they are not following hindu tradition, then my freind, we have to brand roughly 90% of hindu families as for acting un hindu.
All that matters in politics is have they served the people of India and have they contributed to the development of India during their tenures. Rightly or wrongly they have their fair share of success and failures.
@ Satyabhashnam
I am not into hindu bashing, but i am against selective citing of hindu tradition. And also against BJP/RSS/VHP/Rama Sene version of hindutva.
after the 95 link by Indian, got interested in The Tribune . something very different being reported by this newspaper
Interesting take on Pilbhit villagers views.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090401/nation.htm#2
Interesting,
Rajinder Puri asks, a valid question, why silence from both sides.
http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090428&fname=puri&sid=1
The above article sometimes cannot be accessed , but it is here in RPiri’s blog.
http://www.rajinderpuri.com/articleDetails.asp?id=286
British Anti-Nation-State Warriors Attack South Asia
http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=578
Is it due to loss of their colonies one by one?
Interestign article
Excerpts from Facing The Mirror by Sugata Srinivasaraju, Outlook India May 20th 2009:
…How much ever Rahul is acquainted with public attention and adulation, this is a heady or rather a vertigo moment of success for him. As the media mindlessly showers praise, as his rivals silence their guns and his own insecure partymen grant him more victories than he should take credit for, the real problem begins for Rahul. The problem of tending to believe a little too much in his own ‘destiny’ and nourishing the surge of ‘greatness’ inside him. I am sure he is well groomed to stem this tide eventually, but then there is an antidote exercise that he can follow to handle it quickly and with some marked efficiency.
All that he has to do is stand before the mirror, in classical style, and begin to doubt as well as deny himself all his election victories. Even at the risk of sounding like Priyanka Gandhi’s Vipassana instructor, let me proceed to detail some plain-speaking that Rahul Gandhi should do with himself.
The first thing he has to tell the mirror is that there is nothing called the ‘Rahul doctrine’ or that he has not evolved one as yet. He is being praised for the UP victory but he should emphasise that the twelve extra seats came not because of some great strategy but by default. The decision to go it alone in the state was also not a carefully thought out gameplan, but was more a slide of circumstances and a lingering vague idea that did not have confidence in its belly. He should ponder if people in the state were upset with the SP and BSP using them as herds in their social engineering experiment and wanted to recover their self-respect.
…It is best that Rahul assumes that the Congress has gained in UP not because it did something special, but simply because the regional forces failed the people. Wherever regional leaders have been sensible and responsive, like in Bihar and Orissa, people have rejected the Congress.
Next Rahul should converse with himself about Bihar. Here too the Congress went alone contesting 37 of the 40 seats, but instead of improving the 2004 tally of three seats, they ended up losing one. While the Congress vote share hovered around 10 per cent this time, its vote share in 2004 when it contested only four seats was 4.49 per cent. Despite casting a wider net, the volume of vote obtained is very low. Why has the strategy of going alone not worked here?
Rahul should then journey down south of India to analyse his party’s performance. He should make a stopover at Maharastra and then enter Andhra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu. He should try to see what is common to the results in these three states. Without the Maharastra Navanirmana Sena (MNS) in Maharastra, Chiranjivi’s Prajarajyam in AP and Vijaykanth’s DMDK in TN could the UPA/Congress have gained what it has in these states?
…Coming to other states where the Congress has gained Rajasthan, Delhi, Madhya Pradesh and Haryana — Rahul would know better that his role has been limited here. In Rajasthan and Delhi the good run of the Assembly results continued and in Madhya Pradesh the Congress gained more seats but the vote share did not go up commensurately. In Haryana it has been a status quo.
Rahul should generously credit his allies like DMK and Trinamool for shoring up the UPA’s numbers in TN and West Bengal. If in TN the Congress numbers dipped from 10 to 8, in WB they stay put at 6, while the DMK improved to 18 from 16 and the Trinamool jumped from one seat to 19. In both the states Congress has been lucky to ride piggyback on its allies.
People, including the PM, are also crediting Rahul with inspiring the youth in urban areas to vote for the Congress, but then were we not rueing the poor voter turnout in cities a few weeks ago? In constituencies like Mumbai South and Bangalore South the voting percentage actually dropped below the 2004 figures….
Did PVNR had a God of Small things or was he child of lesser God.
Narasimha Rao’s final humiliation
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/dec/28monu.htm
@ Sanjay Anandram
Even in midst of all the adulation, Rahul has clearly maintained that the work is not complete, rather it has just started. He has his vision set on reviving Congress across the country. He has also talked at length about how he has had the privilage to enter politics because of his family. He has also talked about how he wants and would work towards getting youth to politics. Clearly it is a process he is working on, lets give him time and then judge him based on his work and his commitment to do so.
Also for once let all the critics of Nehur -Gandhi family, take a back seat and start sharpening their pens and pencils to keep the govt on checks rather than over analysing on what he has done or not done. As one of the reason for Congress victory in this elections, he has been a factor in more ways than one and this fact cant be taken away. May be the Congress party has over emphasised this in the eyes of critics and right wing media and may be not for COngress party supporters. But lets not losse the big picture. Now the Congress has to deliver.
Form what i have seen so far, Congress has not got it right in the cabinent expansion. But i am not the PM or Congress party president to decide. I am of the view there could have been a better representation and more high quality people inducted to Team Dr. Singh.
E.g. M S Gill – being made a cabinent minister, this is shocking. Neither does he have a political base nor can he be effective vote catcher for the party. Well past his prime?? It is a disaster. Is the Congress power lobby cotrie working over time here??
It was also shocking on how UP and Bihar are under represented from Congress?
It is also shocking to see how K H Munniyappa who was MoS Surface Transport was reinducted. Both T R Balu and Munniyappa were non performers.
‘Even in midst of all the adulation, Rahul has clearly maintained that work is not complete, rather it has just started. He has his vision set on reviving Congress across the country. ‘
Nowadays, most of the comments on this blog (especially from Ashwin) the look like coming from a congi dynasty worshiper!
@ Ashwin,
This is in response to Comment 50, where you talk of khuswant singh’s version.
Please read this and correct your facts.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020210/spectrum/book5.htm
Pasting a few excerpts if you feel too lazy to read the same.
Ambika spoke out, ‘She won’t leave, it is her house.’ Mrs Gandhi’s dislike of Ambika was tinged with fear of the girl’s sharp tongue. ‘This is not her house,’ shouted Mrs Gandhi, ‘this is the house of the Prime Minister of India. She cannot bring people here without my permission. In any case, Ambika Anand, I don’t want to speak to you’.
By now Mrs Gandhi was no longer mistress of the situation. Rajiv accompanied by Arun Nehru took over. They summoned the security officer, N.K. Singh, and ordered him to throw out the two sisters.
Please dear dont cut a sorry figure here.
On Varun, check it here http://www.dailypioneer.com/164149/Varun-was-harsh-but-so-is-truth.html
@ Harish
I need not cut a sorry figure – Ambika you talk is Ambika, Maneka’s sister. The Ambika i talked about was Ambika Soni – who was along with Kamalnath Sanjay Gandhis close friend and a political follower.
I still maintain that Rahul and Priyanka have been more mature and shown great sagacity when they address the media or the public and understand the different sensitivities better and this is because of the way they have groomed. Unfortunately Varun Gandhi forget the ideology he below all sensitivities to air in his comments. The same Kushwant Singh whom you cite, said “He was horrified hearing Varuns comments and went on to say what more can your expect from Maneka’s son – in a interview in NDTV on th ebylines of the launch of his new book” He also went on to say, Maneka had failed in her duties to groom Varun and like Maneka he hoped Varun would not be a bundle of lies.
Personally, i hold Varun’s theatrics did not help BJP in this elections. BJP itself was divided internally on what route to take before they went and defended him. So we can least keep things to that.
I am neither interested nor keen to know what is more of a family problem. I attach less importance to it. What is more important is the politics and policies they stand for.
Hence i maintained Congress now needs to deliver elsethey shall perish and we should all keep the govt on a tight leash.
@Ashwin,
Dear, how naive. Do you want me to remind what you said on comment 50.
“On Indira Gandhi throwing out Maneka, i would suggest get your facts correct. It was Maneka who walked out of Indira Gandhi. She was not happy with Rajic being annointed as the heir apparent and given the ticket to contest from Amethi.
Maneka had made all overtures to Indira and the best persosn to speak ont his issue is Kushwant Singh an all time critic of Indira Gandhi and a once close family friend of Maneka Gandhi.”
Lemme underline what you said “It was Maneka who walked out of Indira Gandhi.” Is this supposed to be khushwant’s singhs version? 🙂
It turns out that dear friend Indian’s version matches with what khuswant had to say in his book. I have a copy of the same and I was amused when i read this comment of yours.
You are damn confused dear, all of a sudden you bring in Ambika soni and kamalnath from nowhere. 🙂 Nor am I interested in discussing a family matter, but your comments on khuswant singhs version did take me aback and hence the rebuttal .
Regarding Varun’s comments, in condemning him or his comments, you tend to forget the ground realities in pilibhit as reported by kanchangupta. Why the hell cant one give a balanced view of the same? One would get to find such rhetoric statements in most of the bollywood movies isnt it? Why dont we ban them? What’s so offensive when one says I am gonna protect hindus ?
You guys read too much man into it man. Why were the other hate mongers let off. Karunanidi made vulgar statements directly targeting brahmins. What did the EC do? You conveniently forget a couple of congressmen themselves made such comments. What did the EC do to them? Why did EC not take cognizance of the fact that Osama bin ladens masks were used for election campaigning.
Very fascinating isnt it that people who say jai shri ram get castigated but those who use osama for poll prospects roam free.
Have fun with you and your raul vinci who still happens to be natural italian citizen, travels with italian passport isnt it?
@ Harish
Thanks for reminding me, what i had written.
I still maintain that Maneka played her had in trying to get on the good books of Indira Gandhi. It is also true that after Rajiv annointment to Amethi seat, she knew her days of heading Congress were difficult.
Also i said all we know is one side of the stroy and that is from either Meneka or those around her. Kushwant Singh was very close to Sanjay and thus Maneka. what is interesting that all of us tend to forget there is another version of the story which is notr been told. The specific reason why i mentioned Kushwant Singh is he had a love hate relationship with Indira and Congress.
In a recent interview in NDTV during the launch of his new book he had criticised Maneka and Varun on the blurbs of Varun and also he had gone on record to say it was his upbringing and he stressted on the point of bundle of lies Maneka has been involved with.
I had mentioned the best way to know the truth is to get a holistic opinion from those who are involved are those close to the parties. Some of the names i had mentioned was Kushwant Singh, Ambika (can be Maneka’s sister and also Ambika Soni who was very close to Sanjay, so was Kamalnath), H Y Sharda Prasad, N K Singh, P C Alexander adn others.
I am just saying lets get a holistic view, rather than castigating based on evidence on either a news paper clips and one person or the other. I have no problems in accepting either way – as this issue has nothing to do with the original post on why i think Congress was voted back.
I do agree with you that Varun’s gandhi issue was blown out of proportions. Slapping a NSA on him was too much, but BJP and BSP let this happen because they felt they can take political mileage out of this. Toast the voters they were more sophisticated than what the politicians expected them to be in UP.
ON the issue of Raul Vinci and Italian Passport – you should know that if a person lets go of Indian Passport they cant contest elections in India.
@Ashwin,
If you cant convince confuse, isn’t it?
The point of discussion is that you grossly misquoted khushwant singh. Lets stick to that. Regarding maneka trying to usurp rajiv, nobody denies that. That’s exactly what khuswant as well states in his book. So dont try to beat around the bush.
You want a holistic view on maneka being kicked out but not on Varun’s statements is it?
Ha ha. Technically speaking sonia gandhi still hasnt completed all the formalities to obtain Indian citizenship. She can anyday flee to italy. This fact was long exposed by the likes of Subramaiam swamy. It was swamy who raised the issue of sonia registering herself into the voters list without having Indian citizenship thrice in the Parliament and Indira had to withdraw that to save face. This is well documented in the parliamentary archives.
I suggest you to take a cursory glance at the Italian constitution and what it entails for this family.
FYI, also check this link which has a detailed research on the same.
http://rtitimes.net/soniagandhi
@ Harish
I have not quoted Kushwant Singh et all. I have said ” Maneka had walked out of PM house” – this was taken out of context in one of the posts. I then said to get to truth of the story we would need to speak to the ones closer the the issue and took names. But to the context of my post this issue is no way related.
On the maneka Gandhi issue, all i say is we know one side of the story, and it would be interesting to know the other side of the story on the incidences that led to the eventuality. In pursuit of truth nothing else. Also i dont claim to know the facts here and neither am i judging here. I am just making inferneces based on what i have heard.
One of them also suggested we need to get to th ebottom of the issue and all i said i am up for it. Neither have i made judegments nor am i interested in making.
On the Varun Gandhi issue and the holistic view – None other than CEC Gopalswami has talked about it and said, what media knows is far more less divisive than the original speech. Also when EC made a rather rare statement on Varun Gandhi. Why did the BJP or Varun not take initiative to get the tapes tested if it was doctored, the reason they did not take steps says something.
I am sorry – i cant see myself commenting on a loose cannon like Dr. Swamy. He is a very good example of how a educated, articulate and pedigree individual going hay wire. He has always choosen audience outside India to comment and bark on the politicians of India, but his contribution to Indian polity or public life has been.
@ Ashwin: What I find “interesting” is that he (Subramaniam Swamy) has never been threatened with a lawsuit – either by Rahul Gandhi or by anyone else from the party (to the best of my knowledge).
This behaviour is in contrast to instances such as this and this
Is there more to it than meets the eye?
Similarly – as far as I know – Rajinder Puri’s story (quoted on the Bofors thread) has not been denied by any of the people concerned. Pl. correct me if I am wrong.
@Shantanu, even The New Indian Express was is also threatened by the prince’s lawyer after they published this cover story. It was another matter that TNIE refused to take that article back or apologize (as per another cover article they published later).
Regarding Varun, I feel he at least dared to talk about some problem which needed to be exposed (assuming the tapes were not doctored) while the ‘prince’ Raul shies away (or is protected) from media in case of controversial or important issues. For example, when AR Antule showed his true face regarding the ATS drama and Raul was asked by media persons about it, all he uttered was (something on the similar lines as) “Why are you asking me this? There are other people in party who you can ask this question.”
@Ashwin,
Lemme quote your comment 80.
“I am not changing my stance: I can only say, please refer to reports and views from Kushwant Singh, then a close family friend of Maneka. ”
What did you say in comment 50.
“On Indira Gandhi throwing out Maneka, i would suggest get your facts correct. It was Maneka who walked out of Indira Gandhi. ”
So from where did you get these “facts” dear? You spoke to ambika soni, PC Alexander, NK Singh, Amteshwar anand or some divine akashavani gave you the details for you to make such a rhetorical statement? Its very obvious isnt it that you have neither made any judgements nor are you interested in doing so ? 😛
You start off with a rhetoric , and later want a holistic approach and the usual I was misquoted and I dont claim to know the facts blah blah.
You say that the BJP should have verified the veracity of the tapes. Why did the CEC not do it then? Different laws for the BJP and the CEC is it?
Everyone is entitled to take umbrage at the audacity of the CEC to say forensic test is not necessary? If the BJP did its own test will the result be upheld in the public domain, after all its a political party isn’t it?
You still didnt answer my point on various other hate mongers isnt it? You still keep mum on osama bin laden’s masks being used for election campaigning? Stop this holier than thou attitude. I am stunned by your stoic silence on these issues. Even the EC is silent, why?
If you don’t agree with someone call him a loose cannon. Of course a loose cannon without a degree in law cannot win umpteen number of law-suits against him even though he isnt a lawyer nor does he hire an advocate. Dude Do you have anything worthy to refute Swamy’s article “Do you know your sonia?” He provides documentary evidence for his claims. Visit his website.
You are welcome to provide documentary evidence to prove the contrary and I am ready to eat the humble pie.
@Shantanu,
Exactly, why has he never been persecuted for the so called “diatribe” on the gandhi family?
@ ashwin,
Dont come up with a statement saying the gandhi family arent refuting Dr.Swamy because they dont wanna stoop down to the “loose cannon” level . Do you have anything concrete to refute the rtitimes link i sent, that isnt a study by Swamy ?
@Ashwin
in comment #114 to Hemant you are saying——I have not quoted Kushwant Singh et all——–.
In your comment #50 did not you said—
Thats interesting!
Does anyone know if Rahul Gandhi has publicly (or privately) renounced his Italian citizenship (assuming that he had one initially)?
…or was he always an Indian citizen?
@Shantanu. It seems that Indian laws are based on reciprocity–that if one is a citizen of a country that allows dual citizenship (like Italy) they can hold citizenship of India also. However, I don’t think there are specific laws in India which prevent a person with dual citizenship from holding governmental posts.
Dr Subramaniam Swamy has a list of articles on this I think at his Janata Party website.
Check out what Swamy has to say.
@ Shantanu,
I think you are correct and safe in the assertion that Dr. Swamy has not been threatned. I dont know why he has not?? All i have known he hd raised the foriegn origin and citizenship issue in conjuncture with BJP when Sonia entered electoral politics and there was a PIL and a case filed in the sessions court and also in front of a Supreme court bench – but if i can recollect the cort dismissed the application.
The question why there is no law suit is valid, i am afraid i cant answer this question, as neither am i a spokesperson for congress or the nehru-gandhi family.
On Dr. Swamy, i maintain that i dont attach importance to his utterance, is not because the issue concerns Nehru-Gandhi family, but he has in the past been associated with lots of flip flops the famous being the 1996 and 1998 Jayalalitha issue, also the way he took Janata Party from a strong brand name to a political non entity.
I have seen, heard and read many of his diatribe. It is also interesting to note that majority of his sensational speeches have been made to NRI audience.
Hence for me, he is a loose cannon and he shall stay the same. Never will i take him seriously – there is an age old adage in kannada the translated version “if one can see muddy water then why drop a stone on the muddy water so it crates a splash and as a result damage the clothes worn” so why take him seriously when we he himself has consigned to being a political non entity.
@ Indian regarding post 114 and 50
I did say Maneka made overtures to Indira. And i meant Kushwant sing and the likes of him are better suited to talk about the issue rather than anyone else because they were closer to Maneka than the media clips that were quoted.
And i still maintaion that – i am not for a single moment denying what Kushwant singh has said in his book, but i am just saying it would be useful if we can understand the issue holostically and get to know the other side of the story before making any judgements.
@ Harish Regarding RTITimes link
What is the credibility of such people who have written these blog posts to be taken seriously? There have in the past been amy instances where the right wing media have insuniated Nehru Gandhi family, the most recent being couple of years back where hindu jagruti posted a blog related to Rahul Gandhi raping a dalit girl….
In my view these are cheap gimmicks to gain dubious popularity and nothing else.
Rather than wasting time of such issues, if the govt is put to task on the schemes it has failed to deliver it would be much better for the nation. Like why did no one bother to question the govt on surfance transport and infrastructure???
@ Harish on Maneka Gandhi comment re 80
It is my opinion and view that Maneka walked out, i may be wrong or right. But it is also very true thaat the Nehru-Gandhi family members or those close to them have maintained a stark silence on the issue.
Let us for the sake assume that Indira had asked Maneka to go out, it would be worth to understadn why she did so and how she came to make the decision to understadn the complete story. Also it is a family matter, there is more to it than mere logic.
I am not here to convince or confuse anyone, my view still is that maneka walked out. Becase there was no other option for her to politically grow and when this dawned to her, she floated Sanjay Vichar manch and she went out talking against the PM. As PM of India, Indira could not stand a member of her own family sopeaking agaist her and her govt and may have asked her to get out of the PM’s house. Hence i am not sure. I have no issues accepting to your version, as long as it is holistic rather than a judgement based on few blog links and or few words from those close to maneka.
@ Harish Re Varun Gandhi and EC
EC was fairly convinced and hence they issued a statement. If he party was so concerned on the official word from EC on varun’s issue, why did the BJP not take it head on??? rather BJP and BSP tried to polarise the society in UP thinking this would bring them a rich haul.
@ Harish
I have not heard or read Osama masks being used for campaigning – i am sure if this was true, political parties would have tried to take positive or negative actions.
Also, EC has done their job, if BJP/Varun are not happy then they approach ther court of law to get the relevant justice.
@ Harish, Indian et all
On the Maneka Issue – i dont see materially my view making any impact on the politics and the reason of why Congress was voted to power which is the issue that i have dealt in the post.
But by and large it is also very clear, that the story is just one sided, and i do beleive that it would be useful to get a holistic view on the story and then make judgements. On the political point of view it is very clear that Maneka was uncomfortable fron the day Rajiv was annointed as the heir apparent to Indira Gandhi.
Also, it would be interesting to understadn why Indira asked Maneka to leave home of Maneka walking out which ever is the ultimate truth – such a decision was taken?
It would be interesting and a hypothetical discussion if the two bahus of the Nehru Gandhi family had come together after Rajiv’s death, would the politics of Congress party have changed??
Some of you may be BJP supportes and some Congress, but at this point of time, it would be useful to put political afiliations aside and debate on the technicalities of the issue, we should try to unravel the rationale behind the whole issue, if th elikes of Indian, Hemant, Harish, Shantanu et all are really think this would be of any use to Indian polity or to assess Congress party or Nehru – Gandhi family (Though the current members cant be questioned or assertions made against them for the decisions taken by the previous generation).
On the issuse of Varun hate sppech, i have been asked why there i am assuming Varun made the speech and not asking for a holistic view. The answer is, i strongly beleive and in this new 24×7 media age, every minute and action is scrutinised and put to test an dmore importantly my faith in the Election Commission of India that they would act fair and just irrespective of who the individual is in question.
@ Hemant
You are very correct that Rahul has been media shy and more measured when he is asked to give instant comments on issues – though not a very inspiring sign, this does not mean he does not have a stand on the issues.
Let us see how he measures up in the next 5yrs and make our judgements. I am sure all of us can hold back our judgements of Rahul Gandhi the politician for the next 5yrs and evaluate him at every point in the next 5yrs and pass out verdict during the next general elections.
On TINE – them not withdrawing their statement, i can only assure you that the issue is being looked into by Rahul Gandhi’s Lawyer and Abhishek Manu Singhvi.
I have also been in touch with TINE editor on the entire episode and without going into details here, i can only say – the article was factually wrong and also TINE Editor has accepted that the assertions they made on Rahul Gandhi a politician is not hollow.
@Ashwin,
“EC was fairly convinced”!!! Wow, EC is no judicial body. Many of the speeches rendered by Kagudu thimappa of congress talked of cutting hands of hindutva followers. No action taken? I am very much entitled to question the impartiality of the EC.
Mr. Ravi shankar Prasad reiterated this fact everytime on TV about osama masks used in bihar.
http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2005/02/kanchan-gupta-paswans-laden-in-lalus.html
It was reported in the pioneer.
Just that you don’t know something doesn’t erase facts.
Instead of questioning the veracity of rtitimes and Dr.Swamy’s expose why dont you prove that those links are indeed vendetta? Talk with proof dear, not rhetoric. Do you have any substantial evidence to prove the contrary?
Answer these with just Yes or No !! No ifs n buts added.
On maneka and she being kicked out. I just give up dear. You still maintain she left on her own, based on pure insticts. Again you dont have facts or statements from the other side. I give up on this because you are obstinate. A person who is sleeping can be woken up, not some one whos pretending.
@Ashwin, I agree, let us wait for 15 months (not 5 yrs) to see how Raul really is as a politician cause I feel that will the the time when he will be installed in the front end of the government.
I find your selection of words, to describe Raul, very funny and more NDTV/CNNIBN type when you say “Rahul has been media shy and more measured when he is asked to give instant comments on issues…”
That is the hypocrisy I hate most! Different yardsticks for different people?
(in continuation with above comment – for some reason I am not able to post comment beyond certain wordcount :()
Raul gets to announce/say all the good (rather populist) things (e.g., loan waiver) while protected form real matters. On the same lines, when PM shamelessly says “First right to muslims and christians’ he is praised but Advani can’t use the word Hindu… (list is endless)
@ Harish,
On Varun gandhi issue, since EC is the constitutional body on elections, and it was convinced of the hate speech, hence such a rare advise was dished out to BJP.
As to Kagodu Thimpappa he was slapped with a Non bailable warrant a case has been registered against him and the law will take its course. I have seen the footage myself, being a senior leader he could have avoided what he blurted out.
On the issue of rtitimes and Dr. Swamy – i have long maintanied i shall not comment on their rhetoric. rtitimes has quoted merely what Dr. Swamy has said.
If i can recollect even Dr. Kalam had clarified to one if the news channels during 2004 he had not raised the issue of citizenship of Sonia Gandhi or the Foreign national issue. More importantly in democracy there is nothing bigger than the people power and people have voted Congress and Sonia Gandhi knowing very well the much publicised issues on foreign born and citizenships issue. If you can convince those or Dr Swamy can convince the people of Rae Bareli and the country not to vote for Sonia Gandhi, why should he not contest against her and raise these issues.
It is just a ply of the right wing sympathesiers and those who want to get cheap publicity stunt who are still harping on the issue.
@ Hemant
I have all through maintained that both Rahul and Congress should deliver – Rahul should deliver on the internal democracy of the party, as he has talked much about it and also he has decided not to join the govt.
As for Congress, clearly we need to keep the govt on a tight leash and if they dont perform, make them aware of it.
The reason i used words measured and media shy – was in his first tenure, this is my take ” he was still getting to grips with what a like being a politician”. I have maintained the same yardstick on Varun as well, apart from one hate speech, i guess he can turn out to be a good politican, time will say – all i maintain is BJP managers and Varun could have done better in avoiding or by just issuing a simple apology if it would have hurt the sentiments of people. I guess the media is also to be balmed for giving too much importance to one speech of Varn Gandhi.
I was anticipating one of you would throw up Dr. Singh’s statement on right to access for minorities – as far as i can recollect it was made in a certain context. Happy to be corrected.
No one is pointing fingers at Advani for saying hindu – but the real issue of BJP is India for Hindus philosophy and also upper caste versus lower caste divide in the decision making process which makes them untouchables. Atleast for the first one is not acceptable.
@ashwin,
No one denies EC is the constitutional body. But why the differential treatment?
Why did it not take action against usage of Osama masks? After all EC is also headed by bureaucrats isn’t it? Why did the EC not issue an advisory against the andhra congress chief for his statements? There are umpteen number of cases of EC bias.
What’s your point when you say people have elected Sonia gandhi, so one shouldn’t talk about it. People have also elected dreaded dons and criminals that doesn’t mean one should keep quite. Ours surely isn’t a matured democracy like in America where elections are fiercely fought on various issues where we have well informed electorate as well as candidates.
Please give a point by point rebuttal on documents produced by Dr.Swamy and rtitmes. As i said I am ready to eat the humble pie. It’s surely not a rhetoric. Or am i missing the meaning of rhetoric? 🙂
@ Harish
No one denies EC is the constitutional body. But why the differential treatment?
—-
i am not sure of what differential treatment you are talking about. EC took action against Kagodu Thimappa.
Why did it not take action against usage of Osama masks?
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As i commented earlier, i haev not heard about this and hence i cant commment. Id indeed it was used why did the opposition parties or responsible citizens like you not lodge a complaint with the EC??
After all EC is also headed by bureaucrats isn’t it? Why did the EC not issue an advisory against the andhra congress chief for his statements?
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Why should have the EC issued advisory on AP – was it because of his comments on Telengana and rest of Andhra. It is a political issue and not a Election code of conduct violation. If it is and was as a responsible citizen you have the right to bring this to the notice of EC or even the oppostion parties can do the same. Varun Gandhi issues was brought to the notice of EC by a main line electronic media and later it was picked up by others.
There are umpteen number of cases of EC bias.
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I agree there are many poll conducated related incidences. I wouldf not go to the extent of EC bias, because i can quote a many similar incidence in the constituencies where the BJP CM and their ministers have violated poll conduct rules and yet no action has been taken.
I have no doubts on the independence of EC and their efforts to run a free and fair election.
What’s your point when you say people have elected Sonia gandhi, so one shouldn’t talk about it.
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I am only saying people have spoken on this issue and have voted her back not once 4 times and they dont see this as an issue.
People have also elected dreaded dons and criminals that doesn’t mean one should keep quite.
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Yes they have voted and they are defeaeted as well, but the cases against the dons are pending in court of law.
IF you are peeved about it why dont you file a PIL like many who have done on this issue and to my limited knowledge they have been squashed by the courts.
Ours surely isn’t a matured democracy like in America where elections are fiercely fought on various issues where we have well informed electorate as well as candidates.
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Do not under estimate the Indian voter – they have their way of hitting back. They did so at Indira gandhi for imposing emergency on India and other politicians are mere mortals and dont enjoy the support Indira had. Hence i am sure if voter really buys into it they shall surely take the right steps – this is the beauty of democracy.
Please give a point by point rebuttal on documents produced by Dr.Swamy and rtitmes.
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rtitimes has based its article on the back of the comments made by Dr Swamy. When fundementally i doubt the credibilty of such links and documents, why and how should i buy into what they are saying – you are the one who cited them, i am merely asking your to convince me on the issue. I hold and maintain the individual you haev named and the weblink are not credible and our authentic for me to even comment let alone buy their assertions.
It’s surely not a rhetoric. Or am i missing the meaning of rhetoric
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I see it as a rhetoric and cheap publicity gimmick – i am not sure why and how if at all you haev missed a point there??
I would suggest enlighten me on the issue by a credible source say a Govt of India or a Judiciary or even a EC ruling.
DO you think if there was anything that would have given a chance for the opposition parities to hit back at Sonia gandhi they would haev let go?? They tried all possible things and unfortunately they have fallen flat.
@ashwin
>>As i commented earlier, i haev not heard about this and hence i cant commment. Id indeed it was used why did the opposition parties or responsible citizens like you not lodge a complaint with the EC??
complaints were lodged and EC didnt care to take a look @ it. I have already provided a link regarding the same and you still say I dunno I cant comment. I am sorry, again here I guess we have reached a point of no return.
>> Why should have the EC issued advisory on AP – wa
s it because of his comments on Telengana and rest of Andhra
Sorry dear. You are wrong. He made statements on the lines of varun. Why didnt the EC issue an advisory then? Chk this for the proof.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Andhra-Pradesh-EC-notice-to-PCC-chief-for-hate-speech/articleshow/4382766.cms
I still dont understand your analogy of sonia being elected 4 times in a row and a few criminals biting dust. What’s the point that you wanna make? That’s no answer to the questions I asked. Should I remind the amount of background checks that happen on the president and many other top officials in America before they assume the office?
>> rtitimes has based its article on the back of the comments made by Dr Swamy. When fundementally i doubt the credibilty of such links and documents, why and how should i buy into what they are saying – you are the one who cited them, i am merely asking your to convince me on the issue.
Very intelligent. But sorry dear. I want to know what’s so “fundamentally” wrong in Dr.Swamy’s proposition or that of rtitimes? You need to explain it to me.
There are documents that Dr.Swamy presents from government archives. Can you prove that those are fabricated?
Example: This affidavit clearly showing sonia’s name in voters list. http://www.janataparty.org/annexures/ann15p61.html
Or the parliamentary archives recording swamy’s question to indira on her bahu. Can you prove the contrary?
Can you make efforts to look up the italian constitution and get back to me and prove the observations of rtitimes are wrong and such clauses dont exist?
There are still lots of PIL’s filed by Dr.Swamy in the courts on many issues. Lets wait n watch.
I am sorry but I think a meaningful debate cannot be fought with prejudice’s. Neither am I expecting you to assume a “holistic” view on Dr.Swamy and rtitimes. Eventually it just leads to banter and no logical conclusion is reached.
Debates cannot be fought with rhetoric or gut feeling, it needs to be logical. You are not supporting your statements with facts, but by pure gut feeling. I am sorry i feel its waste of time for both of us. Unless you can come up with “logical” rebuttal to my comments, I dont think so I would be responding to your comments.
BTW, since you proclaim to be a practising hindu. I sincerely request you to read the debate between adi-shankara and mandana mishra or the various exchange of letters that gandhiji had with various authorities on various issues. These are sort of benchmarks on how debates need to conducted. Its not to demean you or so, but the fact is you have not provided any logical explanation for you gut feelings.
@ Harish
I am notr sure if you are debating for the sake of it or not. EC is a constitutional body and they are not operated under any political pressures. I guess AP Congress president made soem remarks during elections which were divisive and a case was filed against him. Also people taugh the guy a better lesson giving him a break and asking him to sit at home.
In the same fashion as you have quoted i can also raise issues where in Shimoga Dist of Karnataka there were more than 100 odd cases registered against ruling BJP and Yeddyurappa and his ministers, actions were not taken – that does not mean EC is biased.
As a constitutional authority EC decides what is the best course of action to be taken based on the utterances and poll code of conduct violation.
The only reason varun’ sissue became as big it was becuase of media projections. But Gopalswami was caterogical on his last day as EC he clearly said EC was unanimous in issuing an advise based on what it had heard and looked in the tapes provided to EC on Varun’s rhetoric. There were many in BJP who have felt that it was counter productive.
On Dr. Swamy and rtitimes – as maintained i dont beleive their credibility and especially Dr.Swamy’s rhetoric filled utterances, i dont intend to take him credible enough for me to comment.
I am happy if you want to consider the utterances as truth and would request you to build a campaign to spread this and educate the rest as to why they are true.
Few questions:
1. If Dr.Swamy beleived and Rtitimes had confirmed information, why did they not make this a poll issue?
2. Why was this not exploited by BJP/SP/BSP who have always attacked Nehru Gandhi family
3. Is there any Indian Govt documents which state that Sonia Gandhi and Rahul gandhi are not rightful citizen of India.
4. Is there anything to prove that Sonia and Rahul’s action in the last how many ever years has led to beleive that they can compromise India’s interests and run away from India – when their family have lived and died in their service of India.
I am neither driven by gut feeling nor driven by any sense of not wanting to debate. I am merely saying I cant comment on Dr. Swamy because for me he is irrelevant in terms of his contributions to Indian polity. He empliyed similar tactics on Jayalalitha and next time he was sitting with her and together Sonia Gandhi pulled down Vajpayee Govt. How can a person at one time file a series of law suits on a individual and the very next moment scheme to pull down the govt with the support of those whom he ridiculed and in the process praised Jayalalitha to the core – all for political gains???
On being a practising hindu does not mean that i should be goiverned by what some exchanges. Communication with God is one seld it should not be governed by any middlemen. In the same context what right do individuals have to question others about their pratice of faith. My communication with God (Lord Shiva) is my prerogative and as long as i abide by the larger context of wor od god (Bhagwad Gita) i would and do not want to get caught in the dogma of vedas.
@ harish
What defines Indianess is not just by having a registered citizenship or citizenship by birth, but also by actions Soina has demonstrated she could have done anythign she wanted after Rajiv’s death. At one point in 1991 she could have become the PM and she rejected it then and she did the same in 2004 (now lets assueme she did this out oc compulsions) – but the truth is her actions have rendered her to a true Indian.
All this argument based on a technical rule in Italy’s constitution does not mean that the individual in question has ever acted upon in such a fashion that it is anti indian or anti India. She is as Indian as probably I and you are in my opinion.
Unfortunately it you who is beating on rhetoric – if you so beleive i am questioning why is that Dr Swamy, you or others who subscribe to this rurumour, take the govt head on and get to the root of it, the day it is done may be i shall accept it.
Guys: Comment overload alert…If this debate (on the “Gandhi family”) continues, I might have to open another thread.
Thanks all for contributing to the discussion.
@Ashwin,
I agree with most of your original articles points of contention that swayed the balance of votes into the Congress favor. However it would be quite difficult to assign tangible swing %age using these factors.
All of us can rabidly discuss cases of Sonia’s passports or the intelligence of electorate till the cows come home.
But as Sanjay pointed out previously ultimately it all comes down to convincing the most number of idiots to vote for you or capture enough booths :).
The most important factor to victory was the Congress approach to alliances versus the NDA/Third Front’s competition in certain key states which swung in the Congress favor.
1. Vijaykanth factor in TN which was the difference of +30 seats for the UPA alliance
2. BJD split with BJP in Orissa again +20 swing for UPA (counting BJD with Congress)
3. Presence of Raj Thackeray in Maharashtra changed the dynamics of at least 10 seats there.
4. Presence of Chiranjeevi’s Praja Rajyam which split the anti-incumbency votes in AP by caste lines.
At a bare minimum, the Congress was shrewd to leverage a swing of 70 seats which couldve gone against them.
“What defines Indianness is not just having registered citizenship or citizenship by birth”. That may be true, but what defines eligibility for government position is defined by citizenship and not by “Indianness”. The reason why people are appalled by the notion of an Italian woman ruling us is that it is merely a repetition of the old colonial rule, where the the whites control the browns. And when Indians say that she is against India, what they mean is that she represents a threat to the Hindus, which she does. If we are seeing aggressive evangelization in India, it is wholly due to policies pursued by her government. She is in fact planting a cross on India, which is a direct affront to all Hindus whether they recognize it or not. The very notion that Hindus should stand back and peacfully allow this to happen is to expect them to willingly commit hara-kiri (self-destruction). And some of us refuse to do it.
@ashwin,
When i told you to read the debate between it was to say how debates are conducted not to impose a dogma onto you. 🙂
Can you please define Indianness and what makes you think she is a true Indian?
Just that she didnt become PM after rajiv’s death?
On swamy, its a point of no return since you are not providing any tangible proof to disprove the annexures.
Many political parties don’t raise issues on global warming etc and it doesn’t mean that those issues exist. You need to ask why BJP/SP why it hasn’t raised this issue?
Regarding me taking this up. Surely I would do it in the coming years, once I finish my graduation.
type Rajinder Puri instablogs in google. You will get a good post.
I could not post the rajinder puri instablog web site, so the previous post.
RPuri in form in 2006
http://www.boloji.com/myword/mw042.htm
Dear All: I am closing this thread due to comment overload.
Pl. continue the discussion here.
The last few comments have been copied to the new post:
On Rahul Gandhi, Varun Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi, EC – Continue the Debate
Thanks.