“Jana Gana Mana” vs. “Vande Mataram” – Guest Post
Or… Part II of On John Howard, LPG Cylinders and Hoax EmailsÂ
Many of you must have come across a chain email* (pl. see below)Â on the internet on the issue of Jana Gana Mana and whether it was written in praise of George V. While I was discussing this with Dipinder a few weeks ago, he mentioned some reading he had done on this in the past.
I requested him to write a guest post on this topic to clear the air…which he did. Read on.Â
*** “Jana Gana Mana” vs. “Vande Mataram” by Dipinder Sekhon ***
You may have read email/spam claiming that “Jana Gana Mana” should be replaced by “Vande Mataram” as the national anthem of India. Reason, the emails claim, is that “Jana Gana Mana” glorifies British King George V and was written to welcome him to India in 1911.Â
Lyrics and translations of Jana Gana Mana and Vande Mataram are easily accessible (e.g. on Wikipedia), and you are invited to refresh the lyrics and go through the translations in languages you are most comfortable with.
Jana Gana Mana is the ‘national anthem’ required to be sung at important government ceremonies (ref: detailed instructions). Vande Mataram is the ‘national song’ and has an ‘equal status’ with Jana Gana Mana; however, unlike Jana Gana Mana, it is not mandatory to sing Vande Mataram at any occasion.
Vande Mataram is a beautiful song and clear in meaning, hailing motherland (India) as a goddess (Durga). It is similar to many other patriotic songs sung with great passion by people around the world for their motherlands.
Jana Gana Mana is an equally beautiful song but of a different kind. Unfortunately, it is not immediately clear in its meaning, which leaves room for interpretation and controversy as in the email spams. Jana Gana Mana is addressed to ‘Bharat Bhagya Vidhata’ or ‘Dispenser of India’s destiny’, who rules minds of all people and whose name rouses the hearts of people all over India (Jana Gana Mana).
But who is ‘Bharat Bhagya Vidhata’? It cannot be George V unless someone really believes that he ruled ‘minds’ of all Indians and his name echoed in Vindhyas and Himalayas (most Indians probably did not even know who George V was, and many who knew must have hated him). It cannot be any single person in fact, can it be ? It can possibly be God – not a particular God from a particular religion – but the One equally revered by all Indians. Or it can be an idea or ideology ?
It could be anything – person, God or ideal - which truly rules the minds of all Indians across the length and breadth of India. And this could theoretically change with time, as Indians and their beliefs and ideologies evolve (imagine ‘Bharat Bhagya Vidhata’ to be a variable, taking on different values at different points in time). What is it that truly unites and rules the minds of all Indians today ? What – if anything – has linked us together through centuries of history, bridging across diverse kingdoms, cultures, languages, religions? What is the highest ideal you can think of which is worthy of ruling the minds of all Indians; which we should strive to instill in our hearts, minds and souls ? The best I could think of was ‘humanity’ or ‘love for all mankind’. You may have come up with something else eg. Dharma? What did Rabindranath Tagore think of when he wrote Jana Gana Mana?        Â
“Tagore repeatedly stated that the poem was addressed to the divine spirit of righteousness, understood in his own eclectic universalist way (in keeping with his humanist ‘religion of Man’)â€. His Nov 20, 1937 letter published in Vichitra clarifies “..I proclaimed in Jana Gana Mana … the victory of the Dispenser of India’s destiny … of Him who dwells within the heart of Man and leads the multitudes. This could not by any means be George the Fifth or George the Sixth or any other George†(Nussbaum 2007: pp 13).
Tagore was critical of Vande Mataram as being the national anthem. His 1915 novel Home and the World contains this excerpt about Bankimchandra Chatterjee’s Vande Mataram (in words of the character Bimla):
And yet it was not that my husband refused to support Swadeshi, or was in any way against the Cause. Only he had not been able whole-heartedly able to accept the spirit of Bande Mataram. “I am willing,†he said, “to serve my country; but my worship I reserve for the right, which is far greater than my country. To worship my country as a god is to bring a curse upon it.â€Â (Nussbaum 2007: pp 12)Â
I like Jana Gana Mana as our national anthem because it is inclusive and holds humanity above nationality. I also love Vande Mataram – as a beautiful patriotic song filled with passion, love and pride for the country, and as a historic song which played a very important part in our freedom struggle. The George V controversy around Jana Gana Mana is unfortunate. It is also unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nation. Our patriotic passions and energies need to be directed towards fighting corruption, reforming governance and getting rid of social evils, rather than creating Jana Gana Mana vs. Vande Mataram kind of controversies.
Enjoy on YouTube: Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana
References
Nussbaum, Martha C. (2007). The Clash Within – Democracy, Religious Violence and India’s future. Harvard University Press : USA. In particular, refer to pages 10-13 from this excerpt.
Also see: a relevant post on Prof. Amardeep Singh’s blog and Jana Gana Mana – An Inferential Linguistic Analysis Â
*** End ***
Dipinder is at present studying public policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE). He is passionate about India’s development, and thinks that governance reforms (ie political, judicial, bureaucratic) are at the root of our problems today. He is a member of the Freedom Team of India and envisions a secular, united, peaceful, democratic and liberal India. Earlier, he founded and led a successful technology venture in Delhi after graduating in Computer Science and Engineering from IIT Delhi (97-02). He originally comes from Jabalpur, MP.
P.S. Below is one such email that propted the discussion and this post:
Note some of the common characteristics of hoax emails: bad grammar, lack of references and spelling mistakes.
*** Hoax Email Begins ***
Jana Gana Man (?) or Vande Mataram
…I have always wondered who is the ” Adhinayak ” and ” Bharat bhagya Vidhata “,
Whose praise we are singing. I thought might be Motherland India! Our current National Anthem “Jana Gana Mana” is sung throughout the country.
Did you know the following about our national anthem, I didn’t.
To begin with, India ‘s national anthem, Jana Gana Mana Adhinayak, was written by Rabindranath Tagore in honour of King George V and the Queen of England when they visited India in 1919.
To honour their visit Pandit Motilal Nehru had the five stanzas included, which are in praise of the King and Queen.
(And most of us think it is in the praise of our great motherland!!!) In the original Bengali verses only those provinces that were under British rule, i.e . Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat , Maratha etc.were mentioned.
None of the princely states were recognized which are integral parts of India now Kashmir, Rajasthan, Andhra, Mysore or Kerala.
Neither the Indian Ocean nor the Arabian Sea was included, since they were directly under Portuguese rule at that time. The Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka implies that King George V is the lord of the masses and Bharata Bhagya Vidhata is ” the bestower of good fortune “.
Following is a translation of the five stanzas that glorify the King:
First stanza: (Indian) People wake up remembering your good name and ask
for your blessings and they sing your glories. (Tava shubha name jaage;
tava shubha aashish maage, gaaye tava jaya gaatha)
Second stanza: Around your throne people of all religions come and give their love and anxiously wait to hear your kind words.
Third stanza: Praise to the King for being the charioteer, for leading the ancient travelers beyond misery.
Fourth stanza : Drowned in the deep ignorance and suffering, poverty-stricken, unconscious country? Waiting for the wink of your eye and your mother’s (the Queen’s) true protection.
Fifth stanza : In your compassionate plans, the sleeping Bharat ( India ) will wake up.
We bow down to your feet O’ Queen, and glory to Rajeshwara (the King).
This whole poem does not indicate any love for the Motherland but depicts a bleak picture.
When you sing Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka, whom are you glorifying? Certainly not the Motherland. Is it God? The poem does not indicate that It is time now to understand the original purpose and the implication of this, rather than blindly sing as has been done the past fifty years.
Pt. Nehru chose the present national anthem as opposed to Vande Mataram because the thought (?) that it would be easier for the band to play!!!
It was an absurd reason but Today for that matter bands have advanced and they can very well play any music. So they can as well play Vande Mataram, which is a far better composition in praise of our Dear Motherland – India .
Wake up, it’s high time! Shouldn’t Vande Mataram be our National Anthem. Come Join together to put Vande Mataram as our National Anthem.
Please don’t break the chain lets see how many people are coming to know about it.
BE PROUD TO BE INDIAN.  VANDE MATARAM
*** End of Hoax Email ***
Related Posts:
“Recitation of Vande Mataram against Islam”…Â
Vande Mataram – Expose the Mullah’s specious argumentÂ
On John Howard, LPG Cylinders and Hoax Emails – Part 1Â
Martha Nussbaum? Of all people, her? Couldn’t you find a bigger anti-Hindu bigot than her? No one exactly knows what Tagore had in his mind when he wrote it, but to come to conclusions based on one of the worst anti-Hindu person alive (outside India) is very, very disturbing. That too in a blog “dedicated to Bharat and Dharma”. What a shame!
I don’t really feel like commenting on the contents of the blog because clearly the author has no idea what he’s talking about when he says – “The George V controversy around Jana Gana Mana is unfortunate. It is also unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nation.”
Well even the wikipedia that he uses early on has a lot of concise reasons why its controversial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana_Gana_Mana). As for Bankim Chandra’s original novel and Vande Mataram, anyone who’s read the original knows that it was no peace pipe, but just the opposite – a war cry urging the children of Motherland to usurp powers from the Islamic rulers (even by allying with the British). The only composition that depicts the mood of the novel is the original score by Hemanta from the movie Anandamath. So, do us a favor don’t insult “Bharat and Dharma” by publishing statements like this.
@ Bhavananda: I am not clear what exactly is the point of your contention:
a] that Dipinder is wrong about this statement: “The George V controversy around Jana Gana Mana is unfortunate. It is also unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nationâ€?
or
b] that Vande Mataram is a peaceful song?
or
c] that we should not heed Martha Nassbaum because she is a “anti-Hindu bigot”?
or
d] that it is an insult to BHarat and Dharma to discuss issues like these?
or perhaps, all of the above?
I agree (partly).
How can one use the ‘Clash within’ article as ‘reference’ when the first sentence of the 2nd para of that article is a lie?
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
The first sentence of the second paragraph of the article (which Hemant is alluding to) is:
@ Bhavananda and Hemant: I have alerted Dipinder to these comments and hopefully he will respond soon.
I will revert with my own thoughts, hopefully later today…
In the meantime, these two articles will give you some idea of my views:
Recitation of Vande Mataram against Islam
and
Vande Mataram – Expose the Mullah’s specious argument .
Jana Gana Mana – Am surprised that there is no mention about the motherland in our anthem, just about a ‘Dispenser of India’s destiny’. I thought that a national anthem should be about honouring our country rather than some one else, even of it is god. God is not the dispenser of the destiny of a country. Its the people , her culture, and in one word its the “motherland” which is the dispenser of its destiny. And when you think that the song is attributed to a third person it dosent augur well. Also the timing of writing the song and the coronation of the british king seems more than just coincidence. So does the fact that all the newspapers of that time mention it as a song in honour of the king of britain.
But will i respect it as a national anthem? Yes I will because its our national anthem as per our constitution, and if I dont respect our constitution who will? The British?
For me, Adhinayak represents “me, the citizen”. I am the ruler of India’s destiny. Unfortunately, most political groups in India would like us to believe otherwise, and most of them would be scared to let such confidence be instilled into “aam aadmi” (Common man). In reality, there is nothing aam about any aadmi or aurat.
BTW, in most works of art, the interpretation is not defined by the author, it is defined by the readers.
Dear Bhavananda, Hemant, borneveryday, Surya – Thank you for your comments. Shantanu Ji – thank you for your clarifications and comments.
@Bhavananda: Please calm down.
I hold strong secular beliefs and I find the arguments of biggest anti-secular people most useful – as long as they are rational – because they help me clarify and challenge my own thoughts, and also allow me to be always to open to become anti-secular myself. I do not know whether Prof Nussbaum is anti-Hindu or not (I certainly do not think so), but I know that she is a very well respected researcher, a close friend and collaborator of Prof Amartya Sen, and this particular book is well researched and praised by Prof Sen. In any case, I wrote my article not the basis of who she is, but on the basis of facts and arguments presented in the book (as well as other references, one of which Shantanu himself pointed me to). If you feel that any reference is incorrect, or one-sided quotes or references have been deliberately picked up, please point out, and lets investigate. Wikipedia and journalistic articles in newspapers etc are usually not considered very reliable sources, as they are sometime not very well researched and may contain mistakes (except for very basic, widely known and non-controversial facts); but they do many times provide links to more authentic references which could be researched further. Infact, in university and academic work, we are explicitly discouraged from referencing Wikipedia. I referred it here after checking that the translations contained match other authentic sources, and because it is widely accessible.
Thanks Shantanu Ji for listing various possible points which Bhavananda is trying to express.
Bhavananda, it will be useful if you could provide facts and logical arguments to make your points (and not just from Wikipedia and newspapers please). And, as you are passionate about Hinduism, I will suggest that you dispassionately look out for anti-Hindu rational arguments, and try to argue against them. I did not find anything anti-Hindu in Prof Nussbaum’s book. Infact, it actually helped me learn more, clarify some misconceptions.
@Hemant – Thanks for your comment.
Whether [voting on the basis of strong identities (religious, caste based, profession or class based) rather than for a stronger nation, policies which are good of all especially the poorest and weakest], is a threat to democracy or not (in India and anywhere else in the world) is a different discussion. When identity politics starts becoming stronger in a country eg a muslim votes for a candidate just because s/he is a muslim, or a hindu votes for a candidate just because s/he is a hindu, it is usually not considered good for democratic progress of the country. But this is a more complicated discussion. Lets save it for some other time.
Please do comment if you have any views on Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana.
@borneveryday – Thanks for your comment.
I agree, we need to respect our National Anthem, as it is in our constitution. At the same time, I feel nothing should be static : laws, constitution, national anthem – should all be reviewed and changed if and when it makes sense, for a progressive society.
I also agree with you that the possibility of dedication of national anthem to a British king is uncomfortable. I was deeply troubled myself when I heard this. But I am very happy, and proud of our national anthem now that I understand it better.
If you believe that humanity is higher than country, and country than self, then you will find Jana Gana Mana’s attribution more attractive than ‘motherland’, while you can equally enjoy Vande Mataram as well.
@Surya – Thanks for your comment.
“BTW, in most works of art, the interpretation is not defined by the author, it is defined by the readersâ€. Yup, lets continue refining our interpretations. And use Tagore’s comments/intentions etc, or related clues to help ourselves if necessary.
I like ‘common man’ as the ruler of India’s destiny. I like ‘humanity’ better than ‘I’ though.
@Dipinder: I came to this website referred from other (Hindu) nationalistic blogs, so clearly I was mistaken. There is no harm if someone is secular but I’m not (I’m a Hindu and something like Hindu-secular or Muslim-secular is an oxymoron). As I said in previous comment, I (nor anyone) don’t know for sure what Tagore meant, so arguing on it is useless to me. But, surely I respect it as a national anthem.
@Shantanu: On your response to my first comment, my answer is B, C and A, in that order. Especially B.
@Shantanu and Dipinder: Both of you are talking loud on what is the message of Vande Mataram i.e. its a “peaceful song”, right? My question is did anyone of actually read what Bankim Chandra had written. The *original* novel? If you did and still believe that the novel or the song is about peace, not waging war against Islamic rulers, we can stop arguing because we are clearly on opposite poles. The reason I’m stressing for the original novel is because the English translations are NOT translations but interpretations (usually by dubious people like Nussbaum).
I refered to Wiki because Dipinder referred to Wiki in his post to begin with. So, I don’t understand what’s wrong if I used Wiki as my source.Plus it uses proper citations. Looks to me as a typical sekoolar talk – that is certain laws apply to only to some people, not others.
Guys, its up to you to decide if Nussbaum is right or wrong, worth reading or unadulterated anti-Hindu hatred. I do not know if you have just picked up quotes or actually read her books, but I’ve read “The clash within” and her articles (lots and lots of them) and her views on Hinduism is, to say the least, revolting. The entire book is based on “official sources” like Teesta and her foetus-gouging stories. Just read her recent article in Boston review titled land of my dreams. As for fact based rationale, I disagree completely with the last line of the first quote “This could not by any means be George the Fifth or George the Sixth or any other George” because its mere speculation as I pointed out before (only Tagore knows what he meant). Is that a dispassionate argument, Dipinder?
All: Thanks for a lively discussion…This is becoming interesting!
***
@ Borneveryday: Good point about the missing reference to “Motherland” (although I should go back and check the full verses sometime this weekend)
Re. your point about “newspapers of the time mentioning it as a song in honour of the King of Britain“, please read the link to Amardeep Singh’s blog (which is the one I had referred to Dipinder as well)
I liked your conclusion though: “But will I respect it as a national anthem? Yes I will because its our national anthem as per our constitution, and if I dont respect our constitution who will? The British?”
Well said!
***
Surya: This sentence of yours should be highlighted in bold: “In reality, there is nothing aam about any aadmi or aurat.” So true…and thought-provoking point about “the interpretation” being defined by readers!
***
@ Dipinder: Thanks for a detailed and thorough re-joinder…We are not done yet…so this is likely to keep you busy over the weekend!
I would re-emphasise the one point you make about references: “If you feel that any reference is incorrect, or one-sided quotes or references have been deliberately picked up, please point out, and lets investigate.”
This blog is committed to “Truth” and we should not fear whatever the truth reveals..It enriches us in the long run.
***
@ Bhavananda: I am sorry that this website has disappointed you – although I hope it was not on the basis of this one guest post. There are close to 800 posts on this blog…Even a cursory glance at a few of them should help everyone decide whether this blog is nationalist, liberal, Hindu, anti-Hindu, fanatic or irrational (I have been called all these names over the past few years…)
What no one has yet said is that I am afraid of digging up controversial topics for fear of what they might reveal…
I dedicate this work to my motherland and my “Dharma” but the blog is named “Satyameva Jayate”. Why should be we be afraid of the “Truth”?
And no, I have not read Bankim Chandra in original. Unfortunately I cannot read Bengali and I can barely understand it…Someday though, I hope to hear the original from someone who has read and enjoyed it…perhaps that person might be you? Who knows – the world is small and getting smaller!
Until then, I will have to defer to your interpretation…By the way, I dont think I ever said that “Vande Mataram” is a peaceful song…It is – as you have mentioned – a war cry.
I have not read Martha Nassbaum’s “Land of My Dreams” – so I cannot commemt on that.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Very interesting discussion and very controversial post! I have a few questions of my own.
Decades before this “hoax” email about the national anthem floated around, as a kid I remember wondering often what ‘dravida’ was supposed to signify. Was I a Dravidian because I was from South India? Doesn’t it logically follow that the North Indians were then Aryans? And if the Aryan/Dravidian conquest is now believed to be hogwash, who is ‘dravida’ really supposed to represent? When Tagore wrote this song, what was his understanding of the word ‘dravida’?
Should I respect the national anthem which selectively hails a few states (some of which are not even part of India now) and completely ignores large portions of our nation? Shouldn’t the national anthem instill pride in every Indian no matter which corner of the country he’s from? How can I have pride when my identity is obscured?
Also, I am very curious to know why Dipinder hasn’t attempted to disprove all the claims of this ‘hoax’ email?
“In the original Bengali verses only those provinces that were under British rule, i.e . Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat , Maratha etc.were mentioned.None of the princely states were recognized which are integral parts of India now Kashmir, Rajasthan, Andhra, Mysore or Kerala.”
Is the above statement from the hoax email untrue?
Why did Nehru chose a song which “excludes” Indian states rather than include them as our national anthem? A “secular” mindset? Of course common sense tells us that everytime a new state is carved out of existing states, the national anthem cannot be updated. But doesn’t this show a lack of foresight on the part of the ‘secular darling’ Nehru? What was this beef with the nationalist song vande mataram?
I have read the english translation of Vande Mataram and except for one verse which hails goddess Durga, the rest of it is about India’s vast natural resources. Why couldn’t we edit that one verse out and adopt the rest of the song as our national anthem?
Clarification: my questions are not rhetorical and I’m not from Tamil Nadu.
@Santanu: No your blog don’t disappoint me. On the contrary,I thoroughly enjoy it – except this post, which I found utter nonsense (with due respect to the author).
I understand your fantasy with (digging up) truth. This is a good thing, except that truth is a matter of perception. We should not be afraid of the truth, but of their interpretation. Like the “truth” written in the holy book of religion xyz (make your guess). You can get killed by someone else’s interpretation of truth. I hope you get the point.
No, I didn’t say that you thought Vande Mataram was a peace song. Your guest thought so when he said “It is also unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nation” – this one line increased my BP by 20 units 🙂 Then I understood from his reply that it was just sekoolar talk. Fine with me.
Its okay if you haven’t read a book . But given the fact that you’ve invited someone to write a post which refers to Nussbaum, I’d strongly suggest that you read about people like Nussbaum, especially the book (clash within) – highly rated by Amartya Sen, as described by your Guest (Dipinder). And, if you can digest its Teesta style foetus-gouging stories, well, let us know …
PS – I’d absolutely love to read you the original score of Bankim Chandra – bet on it!
@CC: Good questions. The answers why Nehru chose it is long. But the bottomline was to promote sekoolarism and dilute nationalism in India (some say it was to stop India from disintegrating along linguistic or religious lines – there may be some truth in it). That was the reason why the composition was changed to the current “peace song” from the original “war song”. The current tune didn’t exist pre-independence.
Shantanu,
I am not sure what the facts are.
But incidentally I have directly related information to share.
Swami Ramdev has his Bharat Swabhiman organization/trust. One of the things he has decided and started working on elaborately is to train nationalist, as the terrorists train the people to make them terrorists.
For this he has started organizing camps of various sub-units of this organization. He says that there will never ever be any divisions in this organization on the basis of castes or religion. He has proclaimed that even regional words will not be used.
Anyway, so the sub-units, are Sainik Sangathan, Justice & Advocate group, Teacher group, Technical person group, and so on (15 in number).
In one of such camps, Bharat Swabhiman Advocate camp, which was attended by 6 judges (2 sitting judges), Rajiv Dixit, as I understand an Economist & Historian, gave a detailed 1 hour lecture on this very same issue. It was more factful. He elaborated on the history of Vande Mataram and history of Jana Gana Mana. It was so very detailed that it will be difficult to describe here, and I will not be able to describe either, as I terribly shocked to know of the facts.
I will mention some points that I do remember:
– Rajiv Dixit did mention that Jana Gana Mana was written in praise of George V. Though not directly, but someone from Congress made him to complete it in that form for George V
– He stated that he has a original letter written by Shri Rabindranath Thakur, that he mailed to his brother in law, in which he mentioned that he repented this mistake. And Shri Rabindranath Thakur has asked that this song be replaced from being National Anthem
– Rajiv Dixit cited the reasons that were given by Nehru why Vande Mataram should not be national anthem and why Jana Gana Mana be national anthem. One of the reason was that Jana Gana Mana goes well on Orchestra and military band, whereas other does not.
– He told that the entire parliament was against Jana Gana Mana, and voted in favor of Vande Mataram, then Nehru blackmailed by mentioning that he will resign from being prime minister, and since then Congress was very important and respected party, his word was kept
– He told that another reason that Nehru state for Jana Gana Mana was that national anthem is basically to sing infront of foreigners so it must sound good on the orchestra
– He told that the story Ananda Math is a fact, with names changes, and published much later. It is during this true uprising by the Sanyaasis that the Vande Matram was composed by Bankim Chandra Chatterjee
– He told that till 1997 there was still a law to not sing vande mataram in parliament (because the britishers were very anti vande mataram slogan, as it was extensively used by freedom fighters) and that it was removed after the issue was raised and discussed former prime minister Chandrashekhar and only after that parliament session now starts with vande mataram and ends with jana gana mana
– Rajiv Dixit told that after this Supreme court order said that no one can be forced to sing jana gana mana when it is played – because they know of these facts. It was after this order withing 15 days Lalu Prasad Yadav in a flag hoisting ceremeony did not sing national anthem, the issue was raked up in media, and Lalu Yadav then sent copies of Supreme Court order to all the media persons
His entire lecture was endorsed by the Judges.
What I have stated above is not even 1% of what Dr Rajiv Dixit brought out. I wish I could have recorded.
It was terribly shocking, and I believe this version 95%.
CC, Bhavananda, Vikram: Thanks for your thoughts…will respond later…
In the meantime, what Vikram has written about Sh Lalu Yadav and the national anthem may be true:
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2006/07/26/is-this-true/
Dear CC – thank you for your comments.
Dear Bhavananda, Shantanu – thank you for your continued interest, comments and debate. This is indeed interesting.
I answer below in separate comments, starting with Bhavanada’s comments here.
@Bhavananda / Re:Comment # 8
“There is no harm if someone is secular but I’m not (I’m a Hindu and something like Hindu-secular or Muslim-secular is an oxymoron)â€.
Thanks for clarifying your position. My own stand is one of respecting and celebrating all religions. This is based on personal observations of meeting very nice, humane, sincere, nation loving people as well as opposites, in all kinds of religions.
—
“I (nor anyone) don’t know for sure what Tagore meant, so arguing on it is useless to me. But, surely I respect it as a national anthemâ€
Good. As I wrote earlier, ‘our patriotic passions and energies need to be directed towards fighting corruption, reforming governance and getting rid of social evils, rather than creating Jana Gana Mana vs. Vande Mataram kind of controversies’.
However, when there are single-sided misconceptions floating around, it is important to consider other points of views, and make an honest attempt to find the truth. Satyameva Jayate !
—
I have not read the original novel by Bankim Chandra. Assuming what you are saying is correct (Vande Mataram, in the context of the novel is “not about peace, but about waging war against Islamic rulersâ€), I guess it has always carried several interpretations, with possibly the violent anti-islamic interpretation being more popular among Hindu fanatics, and the general violent interpretation more popular among non-violent nationalists, and the peaceful interpretation more popular among others (for example, the version on youtube (linked to post above) clearly potrays it as a very peaceful soothing song).
This is what Nussbaum has to say about it: â€Chatterjee himself was a complex figure who had subtle ideas about nationalism that are much debated. It is uncertain whether he endorsed the sentiments of his song, which occurs in one of his novels. The song itself is a beautiful poem which can be read innocuously, as it was by philosopher Sri Aurobindo when he translated it into English…†(from the abstract linked in the post above, p. 11)
I personally find myself totally comfortable reading Vande Mataram as a harmless song praising motherland India. I also do not find anything against any other religion in it. (my interpretation is based on reading the the English translation of the standalone song, and not on the context in which it was originally written … I have not read the novel, as I pointed out earlier).
In any case, I hope interpretations like mine (or like those depicted in Rehman’s youtube video linked to the post) become most popular.
—
“I referred to Wiki because Dipinder referred to Wiki in his post to begin with. So, I don’t understand what’s wrong if I used Wiki as my source.Plus it uses proper citations. Looks to me as a typical sekoolar talk – that is certain laws apply to only to some people, not others.â€
Sorry for the confusion Bhavananda. To clarify once again, here is how authenticity of references is usually rated :
1. Original conversations, interviews. Original Texts.
2. Academic paper or book
3. Most journalistic writings, blogs or websites
…. for any article, your or mine. secular or not.
—
“I do not know if you have just picked up quotes or actually read her booksâ€
I have read the book Bhavananda, and found it very useful.
—
“The entire book is based on “official sources†like Teesta and her foetus-gouging stories.â€
This is incorrect. As you may know, a large part of the book is actually interviews with RSS leaders, Mr Arun Shourie and others.
—
“As for fact based rationale, I disagree completely with the last line of the first quote “This could not by any means be George the Fifth or George the Sixth or any other George†because its mere speculation as I pointed out before (only Tagore knows what he meant).â€
Nussbaum has directly quoted from Tagore’s letter dated Nov 20, 1937, published in ‘Vichitra’. What is your contention ?
—
“Is that a dispassionate argument, Dipinder?â€
Much better ïŠ
——-
@Bhavananda / Re:Comment # 11
“truth is a matter of perception. We should not be afraid of the truth, but of their interpretationâ€
I agree. Especially, in matters of art (as Surya pointed out earlier), including poetic compositions like the songs we are discussing here.
—
“No, I didn’t say that you thought Vande Mataram was a peace song. Your guest thought so when he said “It is also unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nationâ€â€
Please refer to my interpretation of Vande Mataram above. I understand and accept there can be violent and/or anti-Islamic interpretations of this song. However, I still believe that it is “unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nationâ€
@CC – Thank you for your thoughts.
“When Tagore wrote this song, what was his understanding of the word ‘dravida’?â€
I do not know.
—
“Should I respect the national anthem which selectively hails a few states (some of which are not even part of India now) and completely ignores large portions of our nation? Shouldn’t the national anthem instill pride in every Indian no matter which corner of the country he’s from?â€
I agree. This is a fair concern. If the current version does not include some ‘regions’, we should add those or perhaps replace regional names with something like east/west/north/south etc.
Personally, I have lived mostly in MP, Delhi. I tend to identify more with India though and am happy as long as that is clear. So it does not bother me as much.
—
“Also, I am very curious to know why Dipinder hasn’t attempted to disprove all the claims of this ‘hoax’ email?
“In the original Bengali verses only those provinces that were under British rule, i.e . Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat , Maratha etc.were mentioned.None of the princely states were recognized which are integral parts of India now Kashmir, Rajasthan, Andhra, Mysore or Kerala.â€
Is the above statement from the hoax email untrue? â€
I did not find any facts either for or against this (I did not investigate much). Let me know if you have any credible sources and comments on this aspect.
—
“Why did Nehru chose a song which “excludes†Indian states rather than include them as our national anthem? A “secular†mindset? Of course common sense tells us that everytime a new state is carved out of existing states, the national anthem cannot be updated. But doesn’t this show a lack of foresight on the part of the ’secular darling’ Nehru? What was this beef with the nationalist song vande mataram?â€
I cant say why Nehru made this decision. Was it his personal decision ? Or was this chosen by the Parliament/Congress ?
—
“I have read the english translation of Vande Mataram and except for one verse which hails goddess Durga, the rest of it is about India’s vast natural resources. Why couldn’t we edit that one verse out and adopt the rest of the song as our national anthem?â€
I personally do not really find mention of Durga as a problem. But I understand that it can hurt some, in which case edit is a good idea. However, I still find Jana Gana Mana a better National Anthem as it holds humanity above the country (and to that extent a country whose people hold humanity above country, greater than other countries).
Dear Vikram,
Thanks for your comments.
If you are in touch with Dr Dixit, could you find whether he has published this research anywhere ? That will make these facts much more accessible.
Thanks.
Regards,
Dipinder
@Dipinder
I have no contact with Shri Rajiv Dixit. This program in which he brought out all this was telecast on Aastha channel.
Just for information…
He has been working with Swami Ramdev for years now.
Recently, he joined the Bharat Swabhiman Trust full time, to work for the cause.
Earlier he used to be speaker in Rashtra Chetna program on Aastha channel, which was telecast from 2007 to 2008, by Patanjali Yogpeeth Trust (of Swami Ramdev).
Nice discussion.
What Tagore meant while writing Jana Gana Mana has been a confusing issue and I guess since the author hasn’t left any credible document(as much as I know) that can clarify his own ideas, it’s very much useless to argue about this.The song is here – take it or leave it.
Rather my concern is that the song Jana Gana Mana misses out on content. I mean I do get goosebumbs and my heart fills with pride when Jana Gana Mana is played, but I think that is because of associations of patriotic feelings with this song, regardless of what the song says. But when I look at Vande Mataram,in addition, I find something real to connect to my country…Jana Gana misses out on this.
Regarding the song being a war cry or not…I had read the original Anand Math in Bengali about a decade ago. Yes, the context of the novel was indeed rebellions against the Islamic rulers in Bengal. Of course the song itself doesn’t contain any references to that.
And from where is this “humanity” thing coming into picture…We r talking abt the national anthem/song…not John Lennon’s Imagine or Mother Teresa.
@Vikram – Thanks for your comments.
Lets try to search that video. Possibly it may be on youttube etc. I could not find link to homepage of Bharat Swabhimaan Trust, but did find some related info (need to search more).
I found (and briefly heard) this video :
http://de.truveo.com/Bharat-Swabhiman-Eye-Opening-Lecture-of-Rajiv/id/341466891
He seems to be saying here that globalisation and foreign companies coming to India is bad.
@Neel – Thanks for your comments.
I agree Neel that for many of us it conceivably easier for to connect with and understand Vande Mataram, compared to Jana Gana Mana. And that is indeed unfortunate.
—
“And from where is this “humanity†thing coming into picture…We r talking abt the national anthem/song…”
Do you mean it is bad for a National anthem to allow for “humanity” ?
@Dipinder
“I agree Neel that for many of us it conceivably easier for to connect with and understand VM(Vande Mataram), compared to JGM(Jana Gana Mana).”
-Why is it so? I think this point needs to be discussed a bit. Also I am ignorant about the relevance of Jana Gana in the pre-independence era. Did it appeal to the freedom fighters? Did it inspire nationalists ? Did innumerable martyrs embraced death with Jana Gana on their lips? I guess, no. If we have to choose between VM and JGM, without going to other issues, it’s my belief VM wins hands down because of this fact alone. We don’t have to propose interpretations of VM as it is a part of us Indians, unlike the somewhat unnatural, cryptic(?) JGM.
“Do you mean it is bad for a National anthem to allow for “humanity†?”
-Certainly not. One can talk about all good things…why only humanity! My point was that JGM loses out on the main things vis-a-vis VM. Hope I am clear.
Dear Dipinder,
Please read your comments carefully. On one hand you rate “original text” as more authentic than “academic paper or books” and yet when I (and others – see comments 12,18) are saying that the original message of Anandamath (and Vande Mataram) is crystal clear – its a war cry by Hindu sanyasis to usurp power from Islamic rulers – you are arguing that the message is non-violence, peace, secular, etc without reading the original. Isn’t there a contradiction? If you just pick the song, aren’t you distorting it by taking it out of context? What you don’t understand (and cannot explain by delusional sekoolarism) is that you are not only distorting the song and its meaning, you are in effect abusing the purpose with which Rishi Bankim Chandra wrote it. Your statement of peace is a direct insult to the efforts of the author – like if someone says 50 yrs from now that Netaji Subhash Bose left India for Germany to seek peace and NON-VIOLENCE. Yes, your statements are that maddening. 🙁
For God’s sake, in the entire discussion forum the only people who’ve read the original book knows what it stands for (refer to comment 12@vikram and 18@neel) – a war cry. I don’t know who’s interpretation you’ve read, it surely is NOT a translation. Please don’t blindly follow someone’s interpretation just because you appreciate non-violence, secularism or peace. If you don’t like the message, fine – move on to something peaceful – like MK Gandhi or Nehru or Amar Chitra Katha fairy tales or something like that.
Do all of us a favor – please buy the book (its ~Rs50) and literally take it to someone who can read Bengali and ask him/her to TRANSLATE (at least) the last two paragraphs “WORD by WORD”. Like you would do in a dictionary.
——————-
The rest of whatever you say is plain & simple “sekoolar talk”. Like the following statements :-
“our patriotic passions and energies need to be directed towards fighting corruption, reforming governance and getting rid of social evils, rather than creating Jana Gana Mana vs. Vande Mataram kind of controversies”
-> Both are necessary. There is poverty and hunger in our nation doesn’t mean we shut down bollywood or DRDO & research labs and all go to the fields and start ploughing. (I wish I could send all the sekoolars to the fields where they truly belong 🙂 just kidding)
——————————
“I guess it has always carried several interpretations, with possibly the violent anti-islamic interpretation being more popular among Hindu fanatics, and the general violent interpretation more popular among non-violent nationalists, and the peaceful interpretation more popular among others” -> Again random sekoolar talk – when you are at a loss of logic, just babble something like Hindu, fanatic, extremist, fascist, etc etc. As stated before, second-hand interpretations are for people who haven’t read the book as it is written. And when you stop translating, start interpreting, its a slippery slope with no end to what means what. Refer to my previous comment on holy books and truth.
———————————
“I understand and accept there can be violent and/or anti-Islamic interpretations of this song.” – More sekoolar rant. I NEVER said the book or the song is anti-Islamic. All I said it was NO peace-pipe but a war cry to overthrow Islamic RULERS. Do you understand the difference between “Muslims” and “Muslim RULERS”?? I guess not because you keep repeating those words!
——————————-
PS – I won’t even get started on Nussbaum – its disgusting.
@ Bhavananda: Quick comment…useful distinction in your last point re. “Muslims” and “Muslim Rulers”.
More later.
I never bothered to drill into comparing these two till this post. Now, after I did some drilling, I found it very surprising.
Few differences in my personal opinion:
1. Whenever I hear ‘Vande Mataram’ it rejuvenates my senses and stimulates all the patriotic nerves. I have great respect for Jana gana Mana as it is the constitutional duty and custom. But I feel a clear difference in emotional quotient between these two.
2. I feel ‘Jana gana mana’ is more like describing Indian Geography and boundaries (which congress anyway didn’t adhere to). But I feel ‘vande mataram’ talks about the strength and qualities of the country. The second one appeals more to me atleast rather than the geography.
3. In jana gana mana, he says ‘Oh bhagya vidata, u r the ruler of minds of Jana’. So Jana can’t be bhagya vidata. Other meaning for bhagya vidata could be ‘country’. But sentences like ‘salvation of people waits in thy hands’ and ‘they sing only your victory’, are not fitting into ‘country’ as bhagya vidata. Because, people’s salvation can’t be in country’s hands. And, no idea which victory is talked about here even though its just poetic.
All these give a clear lead to ‘Vande Materam’ ahead of ‘Jana Gana mana’ atleast in my opinion. Thanks everyone for making me realise this.
I also agree that ‘vande mataram’ depicts india as durga mata. Its normal that muslims oppose this. But they will oppose even if its just Mata without depiciting Durga mata, because Vande Mataram is still a workship to country and muslims worship only Allah, not even mata. So, there is no point in painting vande mataram with hindutva. Even with Durga, muslims will oppose it.
I am not against Jana gana, I enjoy that song by thinking about the great geography of India. But my patriotism is explained well in Vande mataram only.
Vande Mataram !!
A typo. I meant ‘Even without Durga, muslims will oppose it’.
I prefer ‘Vande Mataram’ to ‘Jaya He’ (or jaya ho 🙂 )
@Shantanu: A Muslim ruler (or its appointed soldiers, with few exceptions) will come to dhimmi (non-Muslim subject in Islamic rule) houses for jiziya wherein the subject will have to beg, crib, weep and *then* pay the tax submissively. A Muslim cannot/may not/ will not necessarily do the same. Is that a significant distinction?
PS – To me this one reason is enough but if this is not enough I will happily produce a long list. In case you are shocked to hear something you didn’t read in “authentic” history books, read about jiziya in books by Sita Ram Goel, Koenraad Elst, Arun Shourie’s books. And to be perfect, these books “copy-paste” from court recordings of the “Muslim ruler”.
*** COMMENTS COMBINED ***
@Neel – Thanks for your comments.
I understand and appreciate your points. However, personally, I do not agree completely.
You have made 2-3 key points, about criteria on which a song should be chosen as National Anthem
1. If it was the most popular song among freedom fighters (I think JGM was also popular among freedom fighters but possibly VM was more popular).
2. If it is easier to understand by citizens
3. The two criteria above are more important than things like humanity.
I agree with 2, but would like to swap 1 and 3 in terms of importance. And therefore I would still prefer JGM over VM.
However, I will be much happier if we could have a song – equally beautiful like JGM, VM – which is in Hindi (and translated in English etc) (so majority Indians could understand), which is all inclusive and does not name states, regions or Goddesses, praises Motherland India like VM, and caries a humane vision like JGM.
To summarise,
1. I think there is lot of scope for improvement in our National Anthem
2. I prefer JGM over VM as our National Anthem.
3. I feel that ‘George V’ kinds of controversies are factually incorrect, and unfortunate. We need to focus instead on corruption and governance issues.
***
@Bhavananda – Thank you for your continued interest and criticism.
First. I am sorry for changing anti-Islamic ‘rulers’ to anti-Islam. Thanks for pointing out. I will be more careful now.
Second. I completely value your original reading of Anandmath, and that is more authentic than someone’s commentary on the book (eg. wikipedia). I never said that Anandmath is not a war cry. As I have not read it, I cannot comment. For now, I take your and others word for that.
I repeat though (as you and Neel have correctly identified) that the song read independently does not have anything against Islamic rulers. And also, some people – me included – prefer its stand alone, peaceful, non-violent interpretation (and that maybe out of our ignorance of having not read Anandmath).
Lastly, you seem to have a major grudge against ’seekular’ people, and you think I am ’seekular’. Can you please define exactly whom you call ’seekular’ and what you dislike about them ? Also, what is your vision of India ? ie What kind of country would you like to be ?
Thanks.
***
@Nanda – Thanks for your comment.
“I am not against Jana gana, I enjoy that song by thinking about the great geography of India. But my patriotism is explained well in Vande mataram only.â€
I respect your sentiments. I also respect both songs, and both give patriotic goose bumps to me. Between the two I prefer Jana Gana Mana as the National anthem, as I have explained above.
I think this is a good point to leave it. Lets work together to make a great India.
I am way behind on commenting on the discussion here…but I promise to make up for it soon…
In the meantime, thanks for continuing the dialogue..This has turned out to be far more interesting that I thought!
Vande Matram
Help and Join the Aazadi Bachao Aandolan of
Sh. Rajiv Dixitji
watch and hear the lectures of Sh. Rajiv Dixit on
esnipps.com and open your and other indian’s eyes
by hearing these lectures of Sh. Rajiv Dixitji.
Jai Hind, Vande Matram
@Dipinder: From ur last comment it’s clear that u have some pre-concieved notions and u r not in a mood to change them even at the cost of reason and logic..So yeah…It will be good for u to leave this discussion and focus on making India better…Good Luck. And people like me can carry on the discussion without losing the focus on making India better. “Discussing and digging issues that blow up ur existing notions” and “making India better” are not mutually exclusive. I have seen many people giving this alibi of “making India better…improving india..etc” only when their so called “secular!” (I wonder why they call themselves secular when what they stand for is kinda against one religion…or bring it down to a level to match with other ‘religion’)arguments face logical failure… :). Hope u understand my point. bbye.
@all:
Can anybody throw some light on the issue of how relevant JGM was in the pre-independence era? Was it well known among the general public like the VM? Did it have any bearing on the conscience of Indians like the VM had? This is very important as to me it seems that JGM got the status of national anthem just as the result of some kind of whim of a politician called Nehru, who disregarded everybody and picked this song instead of VM. I wonder what made him do this!
also…I think calling VM a mere war cry is a disrespect to the song..VM was/is a song for worshiping the motherland and it was not just a war-cry …it was the tool used for awakening the Indian populace against foreign rulers – both in reality and in the novel. It was a prayer to draw strength from. It has always been an inspiration.
@Dipinder
“I also respect both songs, and both give patriotic goose bumps to me”. I am sure most Indians will feel the same especially when the songs are sung chorus. But I feel VM has richness in its meaning glorifying Bharath, when compared to JGM. As I mentioned in #24, even if we try to force the interpretation of baghya vidata as ‘we the people’, the song still doesn’t hold enough richness in terms of depth and breath of glory(not geography) of India. JGM is a great music for band no doubt and its constitutional, so we can’t insult it. It does glorify a bhagya vidata but not to the extent of feeling as proud as VM (even without sri durga).
I think the main point of disagreement between secularists and hindu nationalists is the former blindly argues for constitutional JGM which satisfy muslims, the later introspects the great aspects of VM which has patriotic ingredients more than JGM but which does not satisfy muslims.
My suggestion would be have Vande Mataram without the stanza where Mata Durga is mentioned. This way, we can keep the high nationalistic song as well as remove religion (Sri Durga) to satisfy muslims. I don’t think its difficult to get agreement from hindus to remove godess durga, as they are more tolerant and flexible.
Interesting discussions.
Based on what my grand parents told me about Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana, I would have to say that the latter is really a post-independence phenomenon. Jana Gana Mana was rarely sung in street processions, with even Sara Jahan se acchha taking precedence, and it was used mainly for flag hoisting ceremonies at Congress functions. The “revolutionaries” never used it.
And, yes Vande Mataram is very much a war-cry (in some ways akin to Har Har Mahadev and Allah-o-Akbar used by fighting armies in India historically, but secular in construct as it salutes the motherland or seeks to free the motherland (from “asuras”)) and the independence movement processions in Kolkata, Dhaka, Murshidabad, Burdwan, Howrah etc all used it as a taunt against the British. I am referring to only these cities here as I heard first person accounts of such events.
And, indeed in Bengal, there was a ditty which went something like this:
Bande Mataram
Pulisher matha garam!
(Salute the motherland
Police heads get heated!)
In some places, when after clashes with the police, shouting Vande Mataram was proscribed, some enterprising folks started shouting the second line of the previous ditty to the police – can not be arrested, yet the implication is crystal clear!
And, I too belong to the group to whom Vande Mataram resonates. Jana Gana Mana just does not have the same emotional content.
Cheers
And, Bhavananda, I find your diatribe (on your blog) against Bengalis extremely offensive. If you really want people to revisit your blog, you will have to do better than broad-brush condemnation of entire communities.
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
@Shantanu – I do not know whether this is a tradition on your blog, but I guess it will be useful to have a summary of where the debate stands now, as many points are getting repeated and we have started going around in circles.
I know you are busy at the moment, so take your time. I will wait for you to do it. Will continue with any remaining issues after your summary. It will be great if you could also identify the issues which remain unanswered (on either side, but relevant to the original post), to help structure further debate. Also, what in your opinion is the overall consensus (or key views) emerging on the points raised in the spam email.
This (summarising, judging conclusion, arguments) is a very difficult thing to do for anyone. But it will add lot of value, and you are the right person to do it for now.
Thanks everyone for a very interesting discussion.
I learnt a lot. I am always open to change my views if you provide reasoned arguments based on authentic facts. However, I understand that there can be fundamental/complex differences in opinion – for example on pacifism, our vision for India, our definitions of ‘Great country’ and paths for making India a great country etc. On these, we can agree to disagree, and continue learning. Or engage in extended debates on forums like Freedom Team of India (FTI).
Lets continue after Shantanu’s summary.
***
BTW, how about this for ideas on a visionary National poem/song/anthem :
** Heaven of Freedom **
Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit;
Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever-widening thought and action –
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
** By Rabindranath Tagore, Gitanjali (35) **
–
Grateful if someone could share a Hindi translation. Thanks.
@ Dipinder: The responsibility for summarising the debate and arguemnts usually lies with the author of the post – in this case you!
You may find it useful to copy and paste comments in a word document (IE will not work; use firefox/safari/flock instead) and then respond to them, identifying individual comments by their number.
I hope to share my own thoughts and views on this in a day or two…as you know I am extremely tied up at the moment…
More, hopefully soon.
@Dipinder
“** Heaven of Freedom **” – Yes, its literally a visionary poem.
But National Anthems are about feeling proud of what we are and about our good qualities, not about what we will be or about what we fell are our bad habits. So, this ‘heaven of freedom’ is literally a vision poem than a national anthem. It could fit well as a world vision, than Indian vision.
@Patriot – comment 34: In case you didn’t get it, I’m a Bengali too, but that doesn’t mean I will have to mollycoddle us. Frankly, I’m proud of our past and disgusted with the present. It may appear extreme to you, but I’m merely responding to the extremity of the situation. What you call as diatribe, is actually criticism – fair and justified (to me). I invite you to revisit my blog and let me know where EXACTLY you disagree and I’ll put a rebuttal or an apology (yes, I’ll do that too). Like I think Dipinder owes us an apology 🙂 just kidding.
————————————————–
@Dipinder – comment 27: We live in a free country, and we can believe or do what we want to, including taking a song out of its context and reading it “independently”. I appreciate your candid response to my comments. My grudge against sekoolar people is very simple – secularism is the most abused word in our constitution. Most people who use it doesn’t know what it stands for and invariably mix it with pluralism, which means what you said – accepting all religions, etc.
So I use a slightly different word – sekoolar – to denote what secular stands for *in practice*, that is, anti-majority and pro-minority, esp. for those minorities that vote along religious lines. What’s most disappointing is the lingo we use to our fellow citizens. In the Americas, even for KKK, they use a civilized word “conservative Christians”. In India, the sekoolars make all attempts to segregate maoists from the communists, although they are the same ideologically. But when it comes to the Hindus (or Hindutva groups) – they are all the same, from Ram sene to BJP. Worse, they liberally use words like Hindu fanatic, fundamentalist, extremist, fascist, mass murderer, Hitler, etc … … anyway, I won’t bore you with a lecture on secularism. I guess, if you follow the news you know what I mean.
——————————-
@Neel – comment 31: You are right. VM is much, much more than a war cry. I used it as a phrase to distinguish from the peace and non-violence some in the blog may be thinking. Sorry about that.
@Shantanu – Ok. I will attempt a summary and conclusion, with as much neutrality and objectivity as possible (I suggested you do it because it will be easier for you to be neutral and objective). Give me a few days for this.
Will be looking forward to your comments and opinion though ! Thanks.
@Nanda – Thanks again for your comment. Allow me to include/answer it in the summary.
@Bhavananda – Thanks again. And you are welcome (for candid comments :). I will include/answer your new points in the summary.
On secularism/seekularism, I wrote a paper about a year ago. Will be grateful if you could review and comment (my thoughts may have progressed slightly from that time though)
http://dipinder.googlepages.com/Secularism_Policy_India.pdf
As this may not be directly relevant to the post above, will be grateful if you just respond to me. Let me know if I should send you a .doc instead for ease in commenting. Thanks.
@Dipinder: Thanks for the paper. Will let you know my thoughts on that (how??).
In the meantime, I can suggest that you visit the youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/cultuurwetenschap) where Prof. Balagangadhara has splendidly put together debates from a nice conference – its a pot of gold and I recommend this to anyone who wants to spend some time (re-)thinking the whole secular/communal debate.
PS – I usually don’t ask sekoolars to do anything like this (i.e. think) because *they know it all* but you seemed a bit different.
@Bhavananda:
No, I did not get that you were a Bengali! I am a fairly vocal critic of my community, too, especially the communists. And yes, I did find some of your comments to be broad-brush denunciations – especially for actions that the community could not have done much about.
I will re-read and revert.
Cheers
All: I finally managed to get around to this post! My comments follow:
***
# CC (#10): You have raised some excellent points especially:
I need to dig deeper into this…Thanks for highlighting the issue(s)
and I liked your suggestion re. “…Why couldn’t we edit that one verse out (of Vande Mataram) and adopt the rest of the song as our national anthem?”
***
@ Vikram (#12): Thanks for sharing the notes from Rajiv Dixit’s lecture…I would love to get my hands on that…Will keep looking for any recorded versions on YouTube or elsewhere
***
@ Dipinder (#14): Last line of your comment reads: “…I still believe that it is unfortunate to use a beautiful composition like Vande Mataram to promote violent and non-exclusionary conceptions of the Indian nationâ€
Pl. clarify…who is doing this? I believe most people who advocate Vande Mataram as the national anthem are not doing so because they are violent and narrow-minded.
Also @ comment #15, you mention that “...I still find Jana Gana Mana a better National Anthem as it holds humanity above the country…” – I do not think that it is the right sentiment to hold for a “national anthem”…and @ #20, you mention: “…for many of us it conceivably easier for to connect with and understand Vande Mataram, compared to Jana Gana Mana. And that is indeed unfortunate…”
Why is that unfortunate – because Jana Gana Mana is “the national anthem”? or did I miss something?
***
@ Nanda (#24): I enjoyed reading your comparison…I suspect a lot of people (and I include myself in this group) would prefer Vande Mataram to be our national anthem rather than Jana Gana Mana…
***
@ Dipinder (#27): We should not fight shy of controversies…otherwise the world will be a very dull place indeed! Besides the things you mentioned are not mutually exclusive…Thus one can debate this issue (and things like the destruction of temples by Aurangzeb) while also being focused on corruption and governance.
The history of a nation and its culture (which includes religion) are important to understand, and relevant in the larger context, I feel.
***
@ Neel (#30): It would indeed be useful to dig deeper and find out why exactly was Jana Gana Mana adopted over Vande Mataram…
***
@ Nanda (#32): Good suggestion at #31.
***
@ Patriot (#33): Thanks for sharing your thoughts…especially the first-hand insights…
***
@ Dipinder (#39): Thanks for the link to the paper…I will have a look. Perhaps you may want to share your email address with those who want to respond directly to you?
***
@ Bhavananda (#40): Thanks for the link to Dr Balagangadhar…Someone else had suggested that to me a while ago but I never got around to it,,,will check it out this weekend.
@Patriot – comment 41: I will look forward to your opinion, but since you used the catch-phrase “especially the communists” I wanted to add, why “especially” them? Visiting my blog you can tell that I’m no pinko. But, I’m not obsessed with blaming the commies only. WTF is/has been the kangress (Sonia+Mamata) doing? Sure the commies destroyed Bengal, did the opposition do anything (other than whining)? If you look carefully, the kangress wins in the most lawless areas, i.e. the murshidabad, malda, dinajpur, etc. This is like Pak (or Arabs) blaming US for all their problems. To me, the blame lies squarely with ALL parties in Bengal, in other words, all Bengalis are responsible (surely, there are exceptions). Feel free to disagree …
Bhavananda, Shantanu and others…
Please send me your comments on the paper at dipinder [at] gmail [dot] com.
@Shantanu … thanks for your detailed comments.
Will revert with a summary (and response to last few comments) within a few days.
Thanks.
Dipinder, is it possible to provide a link to your document in Word format? Thanks.
I read it with much interest and a few things stood out to me.
@Kaffir
Here is the link to the paper in word format.
http://dipinder.googlepages.com/Secularism_Policy_India.doc
(I wrote it originally in OpenOffice, so there may be some formatting problems in conversion. Sorry for that.)
Will be looking forward to all your comments.
Sorry everyone. Have been unable to do the summary till now, and it may not happen for some more time as I get progressively busier into ‘stuff’. This is on my stack and will happen ‘soon’ hopefully. Thank you for your patience.
Meanwhile, if any one of you wants to bring out an objective summary, please go ahead. Thx !
May be ‘Jana Gana Mana’ from the Movie Rann will work for India. Did anyone listen to it? I find, it is perfect for describing present India.
I may be off topic or anti for liking such song but I am sad.. sad.. sad.
Jai HO!
So I spent some time googling and came up with this:
1. Wikipedia has neatly summarised the controversy regarding the anthem. But it only raised more questions.
“O! Dispenser of India’s destiny, thou art the ruler of the minds of all people”
Who is this dispenser supposed to be? A higher authority no doubt… but what is his idenity? I can’t help but wonder if the ambiguity is deliberate.
2. Here’s a link to a wikianswers page that quotes from an interview with Bhagwan Gidwani. Now this is the same guy who protrayed Tipu Sultan as the hero of Mysore while caricaturing the Wodeyars. So I am not inclined to buy anything he says.
“In his interview, Gidwani said he had not recently seen the websites and other material to which I referred but he outright .ridiculed the assertions that Tagore had composed Jana Gana Mana originally to honor King George V and that the Song was intended to welcome the British emperor; or was meant to create continuing sense of loyalty to British rule in India. Gidwani added that there is record to show that, while handing over the Song, Gurudev Tagore had clearly said that it was intended to honor God and Gidwani saw not the slightest reason to doubt that statement. To him, Tagore’s words meant far more than what hundreds of websites may carelessly report.”
Wiki link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_jana_gana_mana
3. Who is the authority on the meaning and interpretation of the Indian National Anthem? Where can I find OFFICIAL information regarding the history and any general information. Govt text books?
I will search for answers to all the above but would appreciate any help along the way.
@ CC:
I think you will find official translations of the National Anthem at nic.in – you may have to search a bit.
The reason I reject the notion that Jana Gana Mana could have been an ode to King George V or any other English personality is that this notion is not borne out by any other work of Rabindranath Tagore – his body of literary work is all about Bengal, its people, their hardships and inter-personal relationships. Some of his work also seems to be midly derisory of the bengali clerks, who were working for the empire. And, his body of poetry is all about love, seasons, and worship of the earth/mother goddess.
Therefore, it is hard to believe that he would have used his creativity to sing praises of a foreign ruler.
Given the absence of commentary by the poet himself, you can only use his other work as corraborative evidence.
Cheers
Summary (till July 14, 2009)
Facts – These seem to be facts/views where most of us seem to disagree, or where there is a strong evidence.
. Jana Gana Mana is India’s National Anthem. Vande Mataram is our National Song. Both songs have equal status but while it is compulsory to sing JGM on certain ocassions, the same does not apply to VM.
. VM was perhaps much more popular during the freedom struggle compared to JGM.
. Rabindranath Tagore did not explicitly clarify what Bharat Bhagya Vidhata meant in JGM, and this remains confusing and controversial. One possibility, given his overall body of work may be that it means ‘the divine spirit of righteousness’. He explicitly clarified that it was not King George V. He seems to have believed that to serve one’s country is ok but to worship it (as VM suggests) is ‘to bring a curse upon it’. Worship should be reserved for ‘the right’.
. VM (composed by Bankimchandra Chaterjee) appears in his novel Anadamath. Anadamath is anti Islamic ‘rulers’ in India (but not anti-Islam !).VM is a song which emotes high passion and is like a war cry. It has violent interpratations/connotations. This along with reference to Durga makes it a subject of controversy – and has been labelled non-inclusive (for those who do not believe in idol worship) and violent.
. JGM refers to some provinces/regions/communities which does not exactly match India’s current states and provinces.
. While we discuss and debate these issues, as these songs are our National songs, we remain respectful towards both.
Controversy/Disagreement – this is where we disagreed (I have underlined my opinion/point of view, where I have one)
Personal Opinion/Remarks
. The key takeaway for me is that it is important to keep righteousness above the nation. If the nation state of India does something amoral or incorrect, we should not support it. One should not compromise one’s morality for the benefit of one’s country. Our allegiance should be first to humanity (any and all humans, independent of their citizenship) or perhaps ‘nature’ and then to our country and then our communities and families.
. While we should remain respectful towards our National Anthem (and our constitution, and our traditions), to caste them in stone for eternity, is incorrect, regressive and harmful. All of these should be open to debate and change to reflect need of the times. For example, it will be great if we could update the mention of provinces in JGM or remove the reference alltogether to make it more ‘timeless’. If one of our poets could propose a song in Hindi/English which combines good points of both JGM/VM and gets rid of the weak points, I will happily vote for it to be adopted as our new national anthem immediately, while JGM and VM are retained as key historic songs and given due respect and mention.
. Our patriotic passions and energies need to be directed first towards fighting corruption, reforming governance and getting rid of social evils, rather than creating Jana Gana Mana vs. Vande Mataram kind of controversies. One could ofcourse do both in parallel or just one of these or prioritise them the other way round, but there are opportunity costs either way.
. I understand and accept that there can be violent or non-inclusive interpretations of VM, and that these are closer to the original context in Anandamath. However, in today’s context, I am totally comfortable in reading it as a peaceful composition (as potrayed in Rehman’s youtube composition), and hope that this interpretation becomes more popular.
Dear All,
Please find above my summary of our discussions so far. Sorry – it took so much time.
Will be glad to receive any comments/criticisms. Please point our especially if you feel I have missed out any major point in the summary, or assumed something was ‘consensus’ when it was not etc
Thanks
Dipinder
Thanks Dipinder! Although a long time coming 🙂 you have summarized the whole discussion very well.
@ Patriot
Thanks for the information. I’ll dig around. Interesting take on why the national anthem could not have been an ode to King George.
Then just who is supposed to be the Bharata Bhagya Vidhata? Nature? God? The country itself? Can this whole controversy be classified as a conspiracy theory by the Hindu nationalists?
Thanks CC !
You are welcome, CC.
My reading is that this was an abstract construct, referring to the collective conscience of the people of Bharat:
জন গণ মন অধিনায়ক জয় হে.
à¦à¦¾à¦°à¦¤ à¦à¦¾à¦—à§à¦¯ বিধাতা
Jana = people
Gana = also people, but also spirits?
Mana = minds
Adhinayaka = Leader
Jayo he = be victorious
Bharata = India
Bhagyo = destiny, luck
Bidhata = god, arbiter
Choose your interpretation based on the above!
Cheers
@ CC:
“Can this whole controversy be classified as a conspiracy theory by the Hindu nationalists?”
I would say more of a vote grabbing/grubbing (?) tactic by certain parties to put Indian muslims on the defensive and to show themselves to be upholders of hindu (and patriotic?) sentiments.
Tagore did a very good job in composing Jana Gana Mana given the George IV brief. Before the composition India could not claim to have had a national anthem except the British one. Tagore’s had official sanction into the bargain.
Its singing in public could never have given the British rulers to make charges of disaffection, yet the message of unity for all Indians in it was clear. Tagore was able to get away with it because he was a poet who wanted to convey a message that resonated with the Indians and gave George V what he wanted. Tagore said of its composition that was quite overcome, so powerfully did it play on his emotions as an India. That is so much of the history.
National anthems are the most compelling when they resonate with historic or evoke religious feelings. The American and British national anthems have elements of both. Any insistance that war or religion should be exempt from the national anthem would be to compromise the greatest service it should serve.
Tagore’s insistance on the dispenser of India’s destiny as humanism and not God goes against the grain of nations who want God to be on their nation’s side. Even with the multiplicity of religions Indians have happily subscribed to this interpretation. It would serve its greatest purpose of Hindus removed any reservations they have and accept this and really move with the time that there should be no fissures of status between them except that warrented by their own merit.
Vande Mataram’s translation in English has a beauty all of its own. It should be remembered that the American’s did not formally adopt their athem until about a hundred years after theirs was composed. We have passed the 100 year water mark as regards the composition of both Indian compositions. The greatest challenge for India is that Hindu society in political terms is in a state of stasis. Tagore’s would serve a greater purpose than Chatterjee’s. The selection of the national anthem has to be a hard nosed decision. As beautiful as Vande Mataram is, it will not contribute to India’s evolution just by wishfull thinking.
@ Khandu –
“Tagore did a very good job in composing Jana Gana Mana given the George IV brief”
What was this brief? And, please provide supporting data in evidence, not your interpretation.
“Tagore was able to get away with it because he was a poet who wanted to convey a message that resonated with the Indians and gave George V what he wanted”
Which George was it, then? IV or V? And, given that Tagore did not write an explanation for Jana gana mana, what is your data to prove what Tagore wanted to convey?
“Tagore’s insistance on the dispenser of India’s destiny as humanism and not God goes against the grain of nations who want God to be on their nation’s side”
Evidence, again? Where did Tagore ever say this?
From Vande Mataram is spirit of India by Saswat Panigrahi on August 5, 2013:
…nationalist Muslims sharply differ with what anti-national Islamists profess and what secular jholawalas say about the national song. Music maestro AR Rahman, in his tribute to Mother India in the form of the music album Ma Tujhe Salam gave Vande Mataram a new dimension. Arif Mohammed Khan, who was a long-time Member of Parliament, even wrote an Urdu translation of Vande Mataram.
…
From Mahatma Gandhi to Shubhash Chandra Bose, Vande Mataram was a mantra of India’s independent struggle. Pre-independence Indian society left no stones unturned in their endeavours to make this very song into a national slogan, reaching as far as England. It was the Congress which adopted Vande Mataram as the National Song at its Varanasi session on September 7, 1905.
It was Vande Mataram which was voted as one of the 10 most favourite songs of the world of all times by BBC World Service radio poll in 2003. Mornings in India begin with All India Radio playing the tune of Vande Mataram, believed to be composed by Pandit Ravi Shankar.
Vande Mataram is dedicated to Mother India. Naturally therefore, it is the song of the Indian heart. It is a symbol of nation and nationhood. The tune of Vande Mataram has inspired lives and times. The chanting of Vande Mataram brings a sense of pride to every Indian nationalist.
The likes of Shafiqur Rahman Barq and his secularist ilk, by insulting Vande Mataram, assault the very idea of India. They are insulting the norms of Indian Constitution. Be aware. They are blowing a bugle of a war against the nation.
From The National Anthem – A Debate by Keshav Rau, August 25, 2017:
…
Jana Gana Mana was sung for the first time on December 27, 1911 on the second day of the Convention of the Indian National Congress, and the agenda of that day devoted itself to a welcome to King George V on his visit to India. The British-owned newspapers of the time – The Statesman, Englishman and Indian had reported that the song was specially composed by Rabindranath Tagore to welcome the Emperor.
However, many historians and others were of the view that the three British-owned newspapers had read too much into the wordings of the song. On the contrary, a song Badshah Humara written in Hindi by Rambhuj Chaudhary was sung in praise of the Monarch. This version was endorsed by the Indian-owned newspapers of the time – Amrita Bazar Patrika and Bengalee.
Clearly, the wordings in the song which raised all the controversy were:
“You are the ruler; dispenser of India’s fortune; thy name aroused the hearts of ….. we pray for your blessings; the saving of all people waits in thy hand; you are the dispenser of India’s destiny.â€
For nearly two decades after the song was sung not too many questions were raised about either the real meaning of the phrases in the song and the composer’s motives and intent. Perhaps to satisfy the section that still had doubts about the motive behind composing the song, in November 1937, Tagore in a letter to Pulin Bihari Sen writes:
A year-and-a-half later, Tagore assumed a more aggressive posture while responding to the criticism:
Some more links related to this:
From National Anthem ‘Adhinayaka’ debate: It’s not about King George by Ram Puniyani, July 11, 2015
…. The perception that Jana Gana Mana was written in praise of George V is based on media reports of the time, which were not very accurate. The media in the early 20th century was pro-British and was not too familiar with local languages. Hence the follies and sloppiness in reporting.
Jana Gana Mana emerged as the most acceptable song to be the national anthem as it reflected the pluralism of the country. This perception that “adhinayak” is a reference to George V has been perpetuated by the English media. In 1911, when George V visited India, the Congress wanted to thank him for retracting the British decision to partition Bengal. This was the first success of swadeshi movement, the first major step in the modern anti-colonial movement. The movement, which had begun in 1905, wanted the government to revoke its decision to partition Bangal. During the session of the Congress that commenced on December 26, 1911, two songs were sung on the same day — one written by Tagore, Jana Gana Mana, and the other that of one Ramanuj Choudhary, who had composed a song especially for George V.
….
The English media was neither accurate nor serious about properly reporting such events. So what was reported by the British media was that Tagore song was sung in praise of George V. As such, the intent and meaning of what Tagore is referring to was correctly described by a commentator in the vernacular press: His song was in “praise of the dispenser of human destiny, who appears in every age”, and not George V, as projected by the Anglo-India media.
When Tagore was asked by a friend loyal to British to write a song in praise of George V, Tagore was angered, as he was opposed to the British rule. Instead of one for George, he wrote a song devoted to the dispenser of human destiny. When faced with the British media’s projection and such criticism, Tagore wrote “That great charioteer of man’s destiny in age after age could not by any means be George V or George VI or any George. Even my ‘loyal’ friend realised this, because, however powerful his loyalty to the king, he was not wanting in intelligence.” The song gained popularity all over and its English translation, “Morning song of India”, also picked up in different parts. Netaji’s Azad Hind Fauj adopted it as the national anthem
Also see Tagore and Jana Gana Mana by Monish Ranjan Chatterjee, August 2003
Adding this link here for the record: Jana Mana Gana & Tagore.
It has some additional information which suggests that the song was not composed for George V, nor was mean to exalt him.
Apparently, an entirely different song, “The Morning Song of India” written by a cousin of Ravindranath Tagore (Jatindra Mohan Tagore) was sung as a welcome song at the Delhi Durbar. More information including a facsimile of what appears to be an original pamphlet is on the website linked above (maintained by Sh Godbole, I believe),
Adding a few links on Vandemataram.
First,
“Vande Mataram: Soul of our Nation and Nationalism” by B R Haran, on 07 Nov 2009
Next, “How did it turn unsafe?”
by S Gurumurthy, 09th November 2009
Also “Vande Mataram the song that repeatedly sparks trouble“, by Sabyasachi Bhattacharya, Nov. 21-Dec. 04, 2009 (originally published in Frontline)
and finally “Great Leaders on Vande Mataram“