Eating red meat may be really bad for you…
From a recent report, titled “Eating Red Meat May Boost Death Risk“:
Men and women who eat higher amounts of red meat and processed meat have a higher risk of dying from cancer, heart disease, and other causes compared to those who eat less, according to a new study.
…”We found the consumption of red and processed meat is associated with a modest increase in overall mortality, as well as cancer and cardiovascular mortality in both men and women,” says study researcher Rashmi Sinha, PhD, a senior investigator at the National Cancer Institute.
The study, supported by the National Cancer Institute, is published this week in the Archives of Internal Medicine. The author of an accompanying editorial says he views the risks found in the study as more than “modest.”
Cutting down on red meat and processed meat would result in a “meaningful saving of lives,” Barry Popkin, PhD, tells WebMD. Popkin is The Carla Smith Chamblee Distinguished Professor of Global Nutrition at the University of North Carolina School of Public Health, Chapel Hill. In a note accompanying his editorial, he states that he is not a vegetarian and has no financial conflict of interest related to food products affecting health.
The recent study is believed to be the largest study to date looking at the links between red and processed meat and their effect on the risk of death from cancer, heart disease, and other causes, Sinha tells WebMD.
Her team evaluated more than 500,000 men and women who participated in the National Institutes of Health-AARP Diet and Health Study. Participants were between the ages of 50 and 71 when the study began in 1995, and all provided detailed information about their food intake.
The researchers followed them for 10 years, using the Social Security Administration’s databases to track causes of death. During the follow-up period, 47,976 men and 23,276 women died.
…For the study, red meat included beef, pork, bacon, ham, hamburger, hot dogs, liver, pork sausage, steak, and meats in foods such as pizza, stews, and lasagna.
White meat included turkey, fish, chicken, chicken mixtures, and other meats.
Processed meat was either white or red meat that was cured, dried, or smoked, Sinha says, such as bacon, chicken sausage, lunch meats, and cold cuts.
…Those who ate the most red meat as well as the most processed meat had a higher overall risk of dying during the study period as well as a higher risk of dying from cancer and heart disease compared to those who ate the least of both.
…For processed meat, the highest intakes were associated with a 16% overall increased risk of dying in men and 25% increased risk in women.
Cancer risk was about 20% higher in those who ate the most red meat, and 10% higher in those who ate the most processed meats.
In contrast, the intake of white meat was often protective, with those eating the most having a slightly lower risk for overall and cancer deaths.
…To reduce cancer risk, the web site of the American Institute for Cancer Research recommends eating no more than 18 ounces of red meat (cooked weight) per week (or about 2.5 ounces a day.) It recommends avoiding processed meat, noting that research suggests that cancer risk starts to increase with any amount.
In its report, Yahoo! news also mentioned:
Barry Popkin, an expert in nutrition and economics at the University of North Carolina, said the study was unusually thorough and careful.
Eating less meat has other benefits, he said, and governments should start promoting this. For instance, farming animals for meat causes greenhouse gas emissions that warm the atmosphere and uses fresh water in excess, he said.
“I was pretty surprised when I checked back and went through the data on emissions from animal food and livestock,” Popkin said in a telephone interview.
“I didn’t expect it to be more than cars.”
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Related Posts:
I’m a vegetarian, albeit I’ll relay this story to my friends.
Correct!
Eat more fish …. the healthiest diet of all!!!
Cheers
@patriot
The same Omega oil, we can have from other nuts. Specially Flax seeds, Almonds, walnuts, sunflower seeds…. Eating every day will bring up the result. This news is for Veg people.
Chinese once said, eating snakes are very healthy! I said Really! He said, ‘Its flesh is’! Than I said what else is healthy? He can go on and on, he stopped at Moose. I said to myself what is left now-may be eating Humans? Thats too are not left!
Please any one interested in what contains(contents) what. I am following this site from vry long time. Read about, sesame seeds, turmeric, flax seeds and almost everything here.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=81
@Indian:
Actually not …. the mix of proteins and omega oils that you will find even in the most humble of fishes, you will not find in any other single food source.
And, many Indians who are vegetarians, do not get adequate protein in their food, which is a vital building block for the body. So, you need to ensure that you substitute for proteins, too.
And, finally, I think eating fish is more humane than eating poor, stationary vegetables ….. at least, we allow our food forms to run away from us!!! : )
Cheers
Other than health threats, increase in lifestock production is posing a great danger in maintaining the level of green house gases. There was a shocking speech on this subject by Mark Bitman at TED conference, revealing this aspect of increase in meat consumption. Whoever can not do without eating meat daily , should see this 18 min video availabile at TED.COM.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/mark_bittman_on_what_s_wrong_with_what_we_eat.html
lol !!. luckily, most stationary food forms apart from greens are able to survive even if we pluck every part of them unlike the running forms which die miserably.
Interestingly the below link says for us to survive, we should stop chasing the running forms and start eating the stationary food forms.
Why it is green to go vegetarian
http://www.vegsoc.org/environment/climate_change.html
@patriot
pulses, grains, flours and milk contains highest grade of protein, which is staple food of every vegeterian home. My clan is veg for many generations so now its in genes perhaps, I did not see any deformities in any of my past and present family members. finger cross! till now. Take a name of single diesease and I will say No. never suffered any of it. Yes smoking took the life of one of my family member and did not cross 65. Yes obesety is also one of the problem of veg people as starch in rice, and sugar. My both sets of grand parents were as tall as around 7 feet and had a raddish skin. Now I have noticed degrading of this in present generation.
Plenty of vegetables and fruits will definitely boost other mineral requirements. Those who are on non-veg diet too takes multi-vitamins, so its not a different story for vege people if they need to take some substitute.
Again its personal choice. No offend to anyone here.
http://www.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/eng/news/160/vg5.htm
Eminent scientists who were vegetarian.
Newton, Einstein and Da Vinci.
@Nanda:
“luckily, most stationary food forms apart from greens are able to survive even if we pluck every part of them unlike the running forms which die miserably.”
Are you sure? Think about this a bit more.
@Indian:
So, you are okay with milk?
Cheers
@Patriot
Why? May be you are looking from the perspective of foreign style milching of milk which gives them pain where production is for sole purpose of milk?. And some have abandon it for high contents of fats and allergy?.
Another news Indian Curd is gaining attention in most part of the word in the name of probiotics. Daily consumption is recommended same as S,Indian does. Where do I stop commending my cultre and habits?
If milk is not being milched, it gives pain in the udder of cow and buffalo. It needs to be milched at definite time everyday.
Nothing can justfy ghastly butchering of animals and cannot be compared with natural arranged food for the survival. I cannot go far thinking about any excuse one need to kill animals when natural source is available. Pluck the fruit, vegetables, else trees themselves will shed-of when it gets ripe. Same with the grains and pulses. Its environment friendly, tasty, nutritious and fresh properties cannot be compared with any stinking flesh.
Plants, fruits, grains, pulses and vegetables are for survival of human same as rain is for water. Their cannot be substitution of this two. Human tried and tried but in last always proved natural source is the best source. Written in Golden words!
Again not to offend anyone here. Just few facts.
@ Indian:
1. Are you aware that constantly lactating cows are not a natural phenomenon?
2. Animals are also naturally arranged food, if you consider trees to be such
3. How about rice, wheat, all the pulses? Do the plants survive the harvest?
If you are surviving only on fruits and water, then you should be okay!
Cheers
@patriot
1.How do you now that its constant lactating? Are you sure, it gives milk all its life? Its same as mother hood. Right!
Farmers does it right. Farmers will let the calf has its portion after that also cow and buffalo produced more milk which need to be milched. Its factory production of milk and hybrid cattles sole purpose of milk gave bad name to it.
2. Do you believe humans too are social animals? In Nithari case they were eating human flesh? Do you approve? From where did that instinct came? There are several cases recorded. In another case chinese man killed young boy of 23, and ate his flesh. And he used the same big sharp knife that is used for chopping meat at home. Its just a begining!
Lets endorse human flesh same as eating other animals and plants. Beautiful! some more nutritions on plate.
3. Nothing can justfy ghastly kiiling of animals. Plants are and will remain natural source of food. Just by comparing plants with animal will not change the equation.
Take a Rose bush and leave it like that for several years. It will stop giving roses, its growth with die and plants will look sick. But try pruning and see the health of Rose bush years after years.
I find you questions as an excuse for eating animals. I am not buying your arguments. What ever you try!
I believe whole of plants and water as my food that is okay.
Again its a discussion not to offend anyone here.
@ Indian –
1. You have clearly never visited a dairy or a tabela – where do you think your milk comes from – the friendly neighbourhood farmer?
2. You are giving me ideas!!!
3. So, destroying plant life and giving pain to plants is okay? Ref J C Bose’s experiments in measuring pain levels in plants – if you could hear your cabbage shrieking when you pluck it, I am sure you would change your mind.
But, not animals? What about the thousands of animal life that you destroy by boiling or otherwise treating your water?
Cheers!
@Patriot. Those who defend the use of animals as food could be accused of being specist. (Specism is the act of placing higher moral or ethical value on one species over others. )
Arguably, specism will one day become as declasse as the bigotry of racism and sexism. We will eventually realize that species other than man have as much right to their lives and liberty.
@Patriot,
I wonder how people are able to eat dead bodies. If they are anyway eating dead bodies and meat, why do they differentiate between animals, in fact why not eat dead humans as well? atleast we could save real estate from becoming cemeteries and also address food shortage due to huge export 🙂 just curious
I submmited comment, no clue where did it go?
@ Harapriya:
But, are you not also indulging in specism? When you value human life above plant life?
@ Nanda:
Valid point! I have sometimes wondered about the same too. Red meat eaters should have limited issues about this!!!
Cheers
@Patriot: Why eating/drinking anything at all ? That way we can save the entire world !!!
@KSV:
The Earth actually may be better off, without us rapacious humans. I agree with that.
Cheers
This is a link to a horror story – the only difference is that it is real.
http://sztybel.tripod.com/facts.html
And this is the stuff that we can perceive. And only part of it. That cows and layer hens suffer from calcium deficiency causing frequent leg fractures, that layers in cages go mad, that pigs are bred so fat they cannot stand up, the list goes on. The root cause of all this, we feel is rapacity, the human urge for more and more profits. This does not explain the wanton cruelty of disposing of worn-out layer hens by throwing them (alive) into a compactor, does it? Or manufacturing pate de foie gras by nailing the goose’s feet to the ground and force-feeding it so that it develops a fatty liver (we call it cirrhosis in humans), boiling lobsters alive – ah the taste of fresh lobster! I have done my share of butchery in a friend’s shop when I was young, but we at least went through the motions of assuaging our conscience by not slaughtering animals in the presence of their friends. We must have been deluding ourselves that the ones waiting for the knife were blissfully ignorant of what was happening behind the sackcloth curtain. I am not a vegetarian, or a vegan – I suppose we develop a selective amnesia in many cases, which allows us the freedom of choice without responsibility. Oh, I forgot genetic manipulation, which has created animals that are only meat/egg/milk/fur producing machines and would not survive one day in the wild, just like most of the plant species we have enslaved.
But, the Empire strikes back. Ecological damage, antibiotic-resistant pathogens due to our habit of feeding antibiotics to livestock, heavy metal poisoning, organisms jumping from animal to man and proving pathogenic to us, wah! This new emphasis on healthy eating is causing even more over-fishing and diverting this cheapest form of protein from developing countries to the developed. And in case we are happy believing that this is the story of the West, we in India have been pumping chicken full of antibiotics for at least a quarter century now. Oxytocin injections for increased milk yield – fifteen years? And the best is that we are more susceptible to lifestyle diseases than the Westerners.
@Patriot
What about white meat eaters. After all dead chicken and fish are dead too !
I have spoken with many non-indians, they are all very convinced that these animals are created by god to feed human. Actually my friends from east believe that all non-human beings are created to be their food 🙂 I’ve never seen an Indian saying this, cos they know killing animals are not correct, but never ready to accept.
btw, still waiting for you opinion on the ‘green’ effects provided in my link.
@ Nanda:
Yes, fish cooked is dead flesh, but so are dead plants and vegetables – I really do not think there is much difference between a vegetarian and a meat-eater from a “life” perspective. Health issues can vary.
The Bible says that god created all the birds in the air, animals and plants on the ground and fish in the sea for men to enjoy – so, I am not surprised about your finding with non-Indians.
I did take a look at your “green” link – yes, “industrial” farming of animals has caused a significant increase of the generation of ammonia, but increase of cars and coal power plants have caused an even more increase of carbon dioxide – let’s tackle the latter, first, shall we? Are you ready to give up your electricity connection? How about walking or cycling everywhere?
I am a sceptic about global warming – the earth has heated up and cooled multiple times in its history – this is/could be part of the natural cycle. The science linking man-made efforts and heating up of the earth is very tenuous, if you really dwell on it.
Also, as an aside, I do remember the the “population bomb” and Malthusian economics were the flavour of the 70’s and the 80’s. No one talks about it now, do they? Yet, the total population of earth has only increased.
Cheers
@Patriot
“increase of cars and coal power plants have caused an even more increase of carbon dioxide”
– This site (http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.HTM) differs from you, it says animal farming causes more GHE 18% than the worlds entire transport system 13%. So it seems it is easy to switch over to the veg counter to save our environment.
I agree with your cycling thing, i cycle 30mins to work so do some of my colleagues. Ofcourse i can’t cycle to india, but i sure can live healthy on vegetarian and contribute to the reduction in GHE.
“[..] let’s tackle the latter, first, shall we?”
@Patriot,
What’s stopping us from tackling both? It’s not an either/or issue.
@ Nanda:
A lot of the research on global warming is “voodoo” science, clouded (!) by the lack of accurate data from China, who is a major producer of greenhouse gases after, the US. I will see if I can find the articles from New Scientist against the research published on global warming. I do believe that it is impossible to separate out the data for man-made causes and the natural warming of earth – we just do not have the necessary equipment.
My point was if you added up cars, power plants and polluting industries – they would far outstrip the greenhouse gases produced by intensive animal husbandry in the US (main culprit). Also, having said that, I am neutral on the subject on animal husbandry – if demand for its products drop, the industry will slim down by itself!
@ Kaffir:
Good point – but, my personal choice is to cut down on using cars, rather than give up eating free-range fish or eggs. If you can convince people to do both, more power to you!
Cheers
@Patriot
I wouldn’t want to question the authority of the UN report, and yes I’ll look forward for the article. But whichever report it is, there is a consensus that animal farming is one of the major contributors to environment damage, which is good.
So lets cut down on the fuel and meat, whichever sequence is preferred. Jai Ho to vegetarianism :-}
Jai Ho Vegetarianism!
@patriot
I am surprised by your justification that Bible says so, who is always reasoning everything cannot reason this?
I am off topic of what others are discussing but this will be my last comment on the topic which I touched and I will finish here.
Why do butcher does chopping job for us?. I dare if any woman or sensitive person can bring live animal and chop it in the kitchen. Human pounced upon animals during famine or similar circumstances. Human was and was selfish by nature. God has created taste buds where one can instantly feel like eating vegetables, fruits and other natural source because of its properties of smell, color and freshness which is tempting and allow us to taste. But how many of us feel like eating instantly chicken, goat and birds roaming around us? Did any one find that eating veg food causes disease?. Don’t under-estimate the importance of spices too.
All in All, I am very happy, world is understanding the important of vegenism and Hinduism in one or other way. I am witnessing all around me, outside India. At least they have touched their ear from the back, so what not from the front.
Jai Hind! and jai vegenism!
@ Indian:
I was responding to Nanda’s comment about the perspective of non-Indians to eating meat – the bible comment was in that context, it was merely factual and not a commendation.
And, after buying fish in the wet markets, we do clean it in the house. In villages, generally people who keep poultry kill and clean their own chicken for consumption.
However, I guess, cleaning of cows and goats is a specialised task?
And, eat what you like – based on your taste buds or your religion.
Cheers
@ Nanda:
This first article is written by a noted astrophysicist, in the form of a conflicting book review:
http://www.reason.com/news/show/32245.html
UN Scientist admits that the planet is actually cooling from 1998:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2008/040408_cools_off.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14527-climate-myths-global-warming-stopped-in-1998.html?full=true
Climate change myths:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11462-climate-change-a-guide-for-the-perplexed.html
I can keep going on, but have a look at the above articles.
Cheers
@ Nanda:
BTW, the last link I provided, itself is a catalogue of links about global warming – pro and con. Since the compiling author believes that human activity is causing global warming, which can have severe complications, the modelling doubts ought to be more credible to you.
Also, do keep in mind that the UN scientists have their own biases – we would call them jholawallahs in this country.
Cheers
More links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1017204.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/climate_change/1023334.stm
http://www.reason.com/news/show/132111.html
The point is that the Earth has warmed up, but how much of this is due to human action and how much is natural?
cheers
@Patriot,
Thanks. The reason.com article you quoted says
“there are a couple of points on which scientists, including most skeptics, agree…..Beyond carbon dioxide, other greenhouse gases (notably methane) have also been emitted by human activities. Put together, the energy added to the air by all human-produced greenhouse gases would be equivalent to increasing the air’s carbon dioxide content alone by roughly two-thirds.”
If UN is biased, following is from new scientist as well, taking inputs from Carnige Mellon University research.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926731.700-what-is-your-dinner-doing-to-the-climate.html
Regarding the models, it is understood that their credibility is weak, but it would be foolish to discard the fact that emissions are happening from animal farming. For this very same reason, though I didn’t read all articles in detail, none of these seem to say animal farming is not causing environmental damage.
@ Nanda:
I think we are arguing at cross purposes. Where have I denied that “industrial farming” of animals has caused increased emission of greenhouse gases?
Cheers
@patriot
So you will not give thought and reason, why some religion endorses killing animal and eating animal? I do wish spare time when you get time disecting Hinduism.
I am not impressed by your views here—-And, eat what you like – based on your taste buds or your religion— because its the same person who is arguing moral, immoral, right and wrong about Rama, Sita, and caste system. I have seen you have ability to go into the deep. And how come a person with such conscious cannot not see the truth here! What you have to say about *religions* endorsing killing innocent animals of no fault on their side, cannot defend themselves? I ask them go and touch the lion and tiger.
Yes ofcourse it is unfortunate time that I too have to say, eat what you like, its personal choice or do what your religion says. When my relgion is being disected number of times. Also it is a straight record –anything good has never been accepted in first attempt. Or Its just an attitude-My is bad but yours is too! by puting plants and animals in the same category.
So religion is very important for everyone! Right! Bad or Good! Follow it! is the message.
Non-violence in society will never be acheived. Human has get into animal instinct and if not completely than very soon. Lets focus on how we nurture our body and mind.
@ Indian:
I am sorry, I did not mean to trivialise your point.
As you know, I am not religious at all – on different forums, I take on diff religions. Since, this is more of a “hindu” site, you see me dissecting hindu religion here. Similarly, I dissect the catholic faith with those trained (and capable) of commenting on it.
Therefore, religious sanctions or the lack of them have limited significance for me – the old testament and the new testament are both filled with so much inane, absurd and contradictory stuff, that the injunction about “all the animals, etc” would not even make the third or fourth cut for discussions, if you were dissecting the christian faith!
So, I hope that part is clear.
Now, you raise a very important point – how can you end violence in society, if we commit violence about the food that we eat. There is a famous saying “We are what we eat”. I do believe in this saying, from multiple perspectives.
However, first I need to understand from you whether you believe that plants have sentient life, with the ability to feel pain, or not? The arguments branch off (!) depending on this starting point.
Please answer the above and then I will carry on the discussion.
Also, pls note that I will probably be able to come back to you only tomorrow.
Thanks
“Good point – but, my personal choice is to cut down on using cars, rather than give up eating free-range fish or eggs.”
@Patriot,
So are we discussing personal choice and personal choice only, or the larger impact that behavior and diet choices of larger groups of people and policies made by state, have?
Thanks Patriot. No need to be sorry, its just I expected very responsibe views from you. I too was off topic and stretching veg food so it was abvious. And I mentioned that in my comment which did not show up because I have missed submit button or something.
In all, my goal has been acheived, that is to convince you that “We are what we eat”. You know its like churning mountains when arguing with you.
Why do plants has potential to regrow? Snapping of limb and snapping of branch is same process than why we cannot regrow our limbs but tree does and that also with 2 or multiple shoots in it. Branch too can regrow if dig back in to the soil and back with big tree in few years.
Why do my tree in the backyard survives -35 or sometime more like -40 degree in winter, and as soon as the spring comes blooms with leaves, flowers and fruits years after years? It almost look dead in winter. Very rare animal has this capacity but most of the animal and birds will die or migrate to another place. May be level of pain in animal and plants is very different? or nature has something different to offer?
There are many reasons for reducing, rather giving up altogether meat consumption. The below link will be provide you the horrible way the living beings are handled. http://www.meat.org/
Can anybody still consume meat ?
@KSV.
you made a huge impact on me, rather should i say the website you gave. I am stopping all diary products while outside India from today, i just couldn’t handle it.
Any sane person would never take non-veg and diary if he watches this site.
man, I learnt my lesson for eating diary while in UK and US. At home we get milk directly from cows, use it for making curd as well.
@ Patriot. While it may be comforting to meat-eaters to think that plants and animals are both the same, they are not. Plants have neither the central nervous system nor the brain to experience pain, pleasure, suffering or fear; whereas all animals which are eaten by humans do.
We also need not look to the Bible to gather ideas of appropriate diet. Christianity has one of the most atrocious views of man, considering him a fallen angel instead of what he actually is–the risen ape. According to Christianity, man is supposed to have dominion over the world and the entire universe. This has been not only their justification of the exploitation of all resources but also the subjugation of non-christians.
The Christian belief that all life forms are there only to serve the desires of Man is one of the most narcissistic beleifs and generally, narcissism is considered a mental disorder.
K. Harapriya, regarding Christianity and diet, look up Seventh Day Adventists. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church#Health_and_diet]
@Kaffir. Please. The Seventh Day Adventists are hardly a mainstream Christian group. The largest of the Christian groups are the Catholics who are followed by some Protestant groups (Baptists, etc). The Seventh Day Adventists’ particular diet is not regarded very highly by any other Christian group. They are viewed the same way perhaps as Hindus might view the Hare Krishnas or the Osho followers.
More importantly, non-indic religions which promote vegetarianism usually do so for health reasons which is very different from the concept of ahimsa. Hindus oppose meat eating becase it is himsa–violence. I think that ahimsa became a guiding principle because there is a recognition of the suffering of animals and a recognition that they are essentially defenseless against the actions of man. One question we might want to ask ourselves is whether animals have any rights? Should they have a right to their lives?
@Kaffir. By the way, the Seventh Day Adventists are one of the more virulent evangelical groups operating in India. Should we consider the morality of a group’s dietary habits when they basically are indulging in cultural genocide in third world countries. This is the problem–violence. When a religion doesn’t preach against violence, then all forms or violence, whether it is chopping up animals for food, or polluting rivers, air, space, or destroying native populations cultural and relgious identity, become acceptable.
It is not surprising therefore that religions which preach non-violence also do not seek to convert and destroy others’ belief systems.
@ Harapriya:
“Hindus oppose meat eating becase it is himsa–violence”
NOT true – only a small section of hindus are not meat eaters (I am not including jains in this discussion, since they do not consider themselves hindu), and they have been seeking to impose their views on the rest of the hindu community.
Please go by demographic data before making such claims.
Cheers
@Patriot. There is a vast difference between what Hindu scriptures prescribe and what Hindus actually do. Most Hindu scriptures including the epics do promote and extol vegetarianism.
Even so called “secular” Tamil texts like the Thirukkural spend many lines promoting the non-killing of animals.
Thus, we can with some confidence say that ahimsa or at least the non-injury of animals is part of Hindu religious belief. At least in the South, most refrain from eating meat on holy days etc and during various samskaras i.e death ceremonies.
As far as in practice, many Hindus consider themselves as non-vegetarians. But I truly wonder how many eat meat on a daily basis or can afford to do so. I also think that even within families, there are gender based differences, with men eating meat and women refraining from doing so. This is something I have often observed, and it not only takes place in intercaste or interreligious marriages.
I believe Hinduism* is based on study of nature* and goes hand in hand with it, no doubt in it. Hinduism is based on advantages nature has offered without going against the natural laws. Scientists always look for vegetation, water(rain) and– air(oxygen)in search of another planet. Nobody can survive without this. We can survive without meat but not without vegetation that shows nature has created everything in balance and also offered many natural resources for survival. Nature also offered plants, shrubs, herbs and spices as for medicinal values too. And its properties– more we pick them more they will propagate.
I was amazed to see when I was young, goat eating up whole plant and reduce it to skeleton, and in just 2 weeks without any rain and water, plants showed hundreds of tiny- tiny leaves on it. What does it conveys to goat? Hinduism has adopted and imbibed several of things by studying nature.
@patriot
Hindus turned non-veg due to influence of many culture. Originally they weren’t. In one of the documentary made by educational source, I think bbc or some other (picked up from library) said Hindus believe each and every animal has soul and goes through each soul of animal in rebirth process. So they don’t hurt or kill animals. Moghul started hunting, spread taste to others(this was in the documentary). Same goes with food habits. We all know how expert we are in imitating other habits and culture, and weak enough to get influenced *very easily* without studying our values and system. This was the first documentary were they understood the values very finely without any mockery.
Jain says they are not Hindus but preferred to club themselves with non-veg hindus in locality and in company wise undoubtly!. They have complain that majority of Hindus have changed their course of living which they dont like much.
@K Haripriya
I agree with gender basis not only in India, all over the world. Woman has become wiser than man regarding food choices. Now the study also says- Early age wrinkles are found less in most of the Indian skin(less meat product cannot afford or whatever) and they give this credits to spices, oil(sesame, sunflower), pulses and grains and veg food we devour. After this research many English author has started publishing books on spices and veg food. Coconut oil not good to consumes as high level of cholesterol but approved best as moisturiser on skin, so definietely coconut oil rules for the hair.
Not to offend the food habits of many but I ridicule those who refrain on certain days and enjoy on other days.
@ Kaffir:
Yes, diet is a personal choice issue for me. If you do find groups that are advocating unbalanced diets or unsustainable diets, feel free to pummel them!
@ Harapriva:
“There is a vast difference between what Hindu scriptures prescribe and what Hindus actually do. ”
Lovely. I actually go by what people do, rather than what they claim their holy books tell them to do. And, I have argued about the caste system, as well, in a similar framework.
On the nervous system of plants, please read this extract published on the work of noted scientist, Dr Jagadish Chandra Bose:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1709102&pageindex=1
And, then this one:
http://ds9.botanik.uni-bonn.de/zellbio/AG-Baluska-Volkmann/plantneuro/neuroview.php
We can then argue about whether plants feel pain or not.
@ Indian:
“You know its like churning mountains when arguing with you.”
LOL!!! I will take that as a compliment. I do like referenced research and debates.
So, is our debate then over? You did not answer the specific question that I posed to you.
And, I am happy to agree with you on “We are what we eat”.
And, Jains are actually far more “conservative” in their vegetarian food habits, as I am sure you know.
So, the other question to you, I guess, is do you want to discuss food habits from a health perspective or a religious perspective?
Cheers
You did not answer my specific question – or d
@ Indian:
Your other questions –
“Why do my tree in the backyard survives -35 or sometime more like -40 degree in winter, and as soon as the spring comes blooms with leaves, flowers and fruits years after years?”
Have you heard of hibernating animals? – bears, sloths, moles, etc also depict the above characteristic.
“Snapping of limb and snapping of branch is same process than why we cannot regrow our limbs but tree does and that also with 2 or multiple shoots in it. Branch too can regrow if dig back in to the soil and back with big tree in few years.”
Look at some of the reptile family – lizards, salamanders -if you catch them by their tails, the tails snap off, and the animals run off into safety. And, then they *regenerate* the lost tails. Scientists have been studying salamanders for years, trying to figure out how they do it. The second link, I have posted above, gives you the answer (scientifically) for plants.
But, then now, we are making amazing advances in stem cell research – very soon, you will be able to regrow liver cells, heart cells, kidney cells – an interesting future beckons.
The topic of evolution and why some species have certain characteristics and others do not is a very interesting one – but, it really does not have any bearing on our personal choices of food.
I read an article in the Economist, whose gist was that the ability to cook was what civilised humans!!!
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13139619
Also, read this series of articles:
http://www.economist.com/surveys/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2261891
And, an interesting side story here:
http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13361488
Cheers
@patriot
Yes, of course it is a compliment! And as I said my goal has been acheived. You have no idea why this message and goal is very important for me. My sole aim is lets first stop killing animals. When human gets butcherd the same way as animal remorselessly is much painful* to see. I see potential link bet this two. Must go and meet families who had this kind of incident. In past comment to Jayadevan I mentioned this as my small little campaign.
Respectfully, I have complain too, you disregard research sometime. If someone is following good habits respect them rather than encouraging them to do what they are not supposed to do. Beside condemning bad things, you can act as an ambassador of good things sometime by leaving aside personal choices.
And about unbalanced diet. Multivitamins are in market not only for veg people, its for non-veg eaters too. Right! Non-veg eaters are more on medicines, multivitamins than veg eaters. One can ofcourse say unbalance diet due to hunger, poverty and eating more junk food but not by sustaing veg life. Many eats vegetables but left out on fruits. Many could not afford their daily portion of milk and oil. So its completely another issue. Pollution, unpotable water, exposure to chemicals are some of the things which decreases the life span. Some of the things I say is so evident and simple to understand, dont reachout for all refernces and search link. They are multiple on site.
I relate killing* animals for eating unreligious and unethical habit which is prescribed by many religions. Now science is co-operating by evidenecs thorugh other measures. So both rules! I already gave my answers. I see plant as a nature provided diet same as rain, and air.
@ Indian:
I was discussing vegetarianism with a very good friend of mine, who is a Jain – and I asked him two questions:
1. Why do you not eat potatoes, carrots, etc
2. How can you eat a cauliflower, poor thing can not even run away from you when you are hunting it. And, just because you can not hear it scream, you think you are okay (the usual stuff).
He said:
1. Jains do not eat any vegetables that are roots – because to eat that vegetable, you have to destroy the whole plant.
2. You try to minimise the suffering of the food you consume – so, yes, plants do suffer, but their suffering is on a lesser scale than that of animals. And, if you can do away with plants, as well, and just subsist on fruits, then you have moved that much forward in not causing suffering.
This reasoning stayed with me. So, I also try to lessen the suffering of my food, to the extent I can, and to the extent my taste buds allow me.
Cheers
@ Indian:
“Respectfully, I have complain too, you disregard research sometime. If someone is following good habits respect them rather than encouraging them to do what they are not supposed to do. Beside condemning bad things, you can act as an ambassador of good things sometime by leaving aside personal choices.”
True, I can play the Devil’s Advocate very well. But, do not denigrate the role, my friend, because it is an important role. It is useful to ensure that ends and means are aligned, and that the former does not supersede the latter. If your means be unjust, what good is the final goal then, however just?
It is also a test of the opponent’s reasoning ability and logical capability – my mission in life is to spread the ability to reason, not just accept things because someone said so!
Cheers
Harapriya,
My comment regarding diet of SDAs was in response to your following comment regarding diet:
“The Christian belief that all life forms are there only to serve the desires of Man is one of the most narcissistic beleifs and generally, narcissism is considered a mental disorder.”
Their despicable evangelical activities as well as their non-mainstream Christian status are beside the point.
As Vidhya said in another thread, ‘take what’s good, reject what’s bad.’
@Kaffir. And my point is that we need not look to the west for affirmation for practices that are already deeply rooted in our own civilization and religion. This unfortunately is the problem with Hindus–unless the west accepts something that we practice, we are uncomfortable embracing it. We see this in the case of yoga, a practice that has been around for at least 2000 years now gaining popularity in India because Westerners embrace it.
The Jain example was good, especially with causing less pain to plants when compared to animals, may be because plants can survive and come back.
Summary is:
1. Meat industry causes damage to the environment, though there are disagreements with respect to accuracy, but not with the main subject.
2. Eating meat by killing animals is not humane especially for the way they are treated in the meat industry in an violent manner, when compared to causing less pain to plants.
3. Surviving on fruits is the highest level of non-violence.
4. Surviving on fruits plus other vegetables avoiding the roots is the next least violent practise.
5. Being vegetarian by eating all vegetation including roots and nuts is the next level.
6. Killing animals for the sole purpose of satisfying one’s taste buds and stomach is the next-to-most violent way.
7. Killing our own kind and eating is the most violent.
We all know where we stand. Lets try to go up the ladder as much possible rather than trying bring the people down the ladder. Hope there is an agreement.
@Harapriya
My comment 54 was crystal clear as to what I as saying, and I see no reason why anyone would interpret my comment as “looking to the west for validation” for a vegetarian diet just because I mentioned the dietary habits of SDAs. I am quite aware of ethics and diet from Hindu, Jain and Buddhism perspective, and value it a lot. I am also familiar with the ‘looking to the west for approval’ phenomenon. In fact, the west is very messed up when it comes to food and diet.
Why would you even think or assume that my comment was “looking for validation from the west regarding vegetarian diet” or assume anything about my food habits and its influence??
Not so fast, Nanda!
#2 – Let us leave the meat industry now out of this debate. We have agreed that their practices are vile and cause increased release of greenhouse gases.
However, new research is challenging our understanding of plants and their nervous systems. So, while I quoted my jain friend on the plant suffering vs animal suffering issue, we may have to revise our understanding of who suffers what.
#3 I think #3 should be that the human race is starved to death!
#4 – you will have to different between vegetables and cereals/pulses – the latter plants are eradicated in the harvest.
#5 – why nuts? aren’t nuts the equivalent of fruits? Seeded ones, at least?
#6 – oho! nice try – but this has major categories – unfertilised eggs (why is this different from your milk or fruits?), fish, chicken and then mammals. There is a scale here, which you can not just condense into one!
Cheers!
It is useful to ensure that ends and means are aligned, and that the former does not supersede the latter. If your means be unjust, what good is the final goal then, however just?
@Patriot,
Hmm…under which philosophy/framework is the above true? And why should I agree or follow it? And what utopia will be achieved once ends and means are aligned for x number of people, which (according to your comment) is not so the case for them? Will that critical mass lead to anything positive? Says who and why? 🙂
@Kaffir:
Gandhian philosophy
@Kaffir:
Here is the modern equivalent of the ends vs means question –
Would it have been immoral to assassinate or murder Adolf Hitler (assuming that you know all the atrocities that he was going to inflict, before he inflicted it)?
Break your head over it!!! I am not going to join this debate!
Cheers
@patriot
I agree! with your mission and role. Have no question about it.
And your Jain friend is very right also because In some (mosoon) season dont eat potatoes, onions or anythings that comes from the ground to prevent killing many tiny lives attached to it. But here unbalanced diet can occure which they have to be very careful about. In such case they must consult doctor for the good brand multivitamins or B complex. Jains’ have gone very deeper in to the pain and suffering of other lives.
And other points on hibernation and reptiles were in my mind during writing. Honestly, my problem is-I see plants life very differnt than animal life. I will go through your links. But in all, I will give you a rest now. No more question from my side. Thanks for engaging me in the debate.
@K. Haripriya
You are right, we dont trust our practices till westerners nod on it. We take it as a old times tale. Need to be changed. They start seeing it as occult, than research and than comes confirmation. They also accepted it because of health benifits rest you and me know what would have been the fate of old tales.
@Patriot,
You answered only one of the question out of many I asked in 59.
As for ends-justifying-means, I see no valid reason to take it up as a dogma to be religiously applied to everything by everyone. Depending on the context and/or situation, maybe sometimes end does justify means, and in other cases, it doesn’t. Maybe the answer is different for an individual vs. state, or depends on who the player is and what’s his role.
Is it logically/rationally/scientifically proven that acting consistently in one way (means and ends are aligned) by all will lead to something wonderful? Who decides which means are OK and which are not? Break your head over it!! 🙂
@Kaffir:
“Depending on the context and/or situation, maybe sometimes end does justify means, and in other cases, it doesn’t. Maybe the answer is different for an individual vs. state, or depends on who the player is and what’s his role.”
Very true. But, in my opinion, the cardinal principle should be that the choice of means by one entity should not harm a second entity, while benefiting a third entity, which could be numerically superior to the second entity.
“Who decides which means are OK and which are not?”
You decide. The doer should be capable of deciding.
These are the principles of liberalism, that we are discussing.
Cheers
@Patriot,
But then “you decide” doesn’t align with your self-confessed role of playing a devil’s advocate to propagate “alignment of means and ends” value among the readers of this blog. 🙂
@patriot
Good to know we have agreement that meat industry is contributing to greenhouse gas. I would recommend all meat industry customers (non-vegetarians) to be advised on this.
#3 ‘human race starved to death’ – i didn’t include it because I assumed human survival as the base. Else, causing death of human race would probably make it violent !!
#4 I thought pulses and grains are eradicated only after they get too old to do anything else. Even otherwise, i’m fine with splitting it further from vegetables
#5 right not all nuts. may be just ground nuts and similar ones
#6 I’m fine with splitting this to diary products, unfertilized egg and then meat.
So, updated list
7. next to last violent is killing animals to satisfy taste buds and stomach (excluding unfertilized egg etc). If you really prefer, you can split this to how many ever levels you think would be accurate.
8. most violent is killing our own kind for food
Now, some clarity on individual’s positions !!
@ kaffir –
the devil’s advocate comment was a specific response! I have not taken up a general role here! Thx for pointing that out.
@ nanda –
i guess i am #6-7. way down in the non-violence scale.
cheers
@patriot
correction comment #48. its minor but necessary. Read as –jain says they are not Hindus but preferred to club themselves with veg hindus in locality and in company wise undoubtly!.
Interesting point of view:
Although the plant pain promoters are fond of reductios, they will not likely appreciate the following extension of their own. By their “logic”, it would equally be the case that rain clouds behave purposefully in the sense that they could be said to functionally remove, by way of raining, excessive moisture that is causing their overstaturation.
Furthermore, rain clouds bear meaningful information about their level of oversaturation in the form of weight relative to volume. Do not clouds, therefore, “sense” (in some tortured notion of the word) when atmospheric pressure is insufficient for their moisture content to remain in a vaporous state?
The promoters of plant pain would have us believe, against our good common sense, that by the mere presence of purposive BEHAVIOURS of avoidance and REACTIONS to tissue damage in plants we therefore must attribute to plants mental states like that of some kind of “felt pain”.
Well, then by the same logic we must do the same to clouds. In the hole that these promoters of plant pain would dig for themselves, not only must we accept the thesis of plant pain, we would also have to swallow some notion of “cloud sentience”!
@ Nanda:
Yes, we all like to defend our own habits!
Cheers
@Nanda –
Assuming that the above comments were yours, and you were not quoting others:
1. There is sufficient scientific evidence to date that plants have nervous systems – if you are disputing this point, then of course, you are on a different plane
2. If I were to take your analogy then about clouds – where is their nervous system?
No hole here for the proponents of plant pain!
Cheers
@Patriot
It was not mine, it was from tabish.freeshell.org/animals/plantpain.html.
You referenced the article from Jagdish Chandra Bose. He picked mimosa pudica touch me not may be because its so different than other plants. He also says that that nerve was not present in other plants. Though there are researches proving a nervous system in some plants, they can’t be taken as pain.
There is no evidence to prove that the simple nervous system of common plants can be equated to a pain felt by animals. Just some harmones generated due to external stimuli can’t be agreed to be same as animal pain.
I personally am not concerned about this plant pain theory, so even if its plant pain, the question is, how are plants different from animals in the food cycle? why is it ok to eat something at all. Keep in mind not all plants react to pain in the same way. Not all animals feel pain the same way (e.g. lobsters). Not all humans can have same food practice (e.g. sea shore inhabitants). Is it wrong to harm people? If so what about dead people? Do plants have same rights as animals, and do animals have the same rights as people (to be free from harm)? Do they have any rights at all? What kind of diet is within our nature? is it not ok for people in sea shore with unfertile land to eat seafood? is it ok for a person surrounded by fruits and vegs to eat animals? in future if we can farm humans, it is ok to eat humans torturing them same way as an animal?
This is a much more complex argument, which cannot be simplified by proving a simple nervous system. This needs a deep thought process and individual conscience.
I want to know from where do someone is getting skill and courage to kill someone’s mother, father, wife, husband, son, daughter, brother or sister. If there is no difference between plant and animal than I wonder in what way and why killing animal and killing human is different? Why its rampant to kill humans?
What is the real purpose of plant and animal on this planet?
Hello, Hare Krishna, Here are some of my views.
Agriculture, is the first culture of the human species and the finest culture. The word culture is attached only to agriculture and even maintaining animals is called animal husbandry. Even you have culture attached to horticulture, but there is nowhere the world, the word culture attached to any slaughtering of animals , or butchering of animals. So long, so good. Atleast , some sense has prevailed on the human species to give the plant kingdom the word culture and not to animal slaughtering and butchering.
“I do not want to make my stomach a graveyard of dead animals.” George Bernard Shaw
“When a man wants to murder a tiger, he calls it sport; when a tiger wants to murder him, he calls it ferocity.” George Bernard Shaw
These two quotes by GB Shaw are brilliant words of a vibrant vegetarian mind. One day when we were feeding people in India ( the land which gave the world vegetarian delights) , a tough looking gentleman told me that ” Beef eating is allowed in our book” I replied, the book also says ” Do onto others as others will do onto you”. The gentleman was a bit non-plussed. I asked him ” Do you drink milk” ” Yes” he said. Then ” Feed it good grass as it gives you milk” Yes, he understood my do onto others quote, but was insistent that they butcher the cows after it stops giving milk. I told him ” Well, you doing a credit and debit style feed and take policy. Why kill the poor thing for meat when it has supplied milk all through. He was not convinced. Then I narrated a poem written by GB Shaw ”
In the words of George Bernard Shaw:
We are living graves of murdered beasts
Slaughtered to satisfy our appetites.
We never pause to wonder at our feasts,
If animals like men could possibly have rights.
.
We pray on Sunday that we may have light,
To guide our footsteps on the paths we tread.
We are sick of war, we do not want to fight,
And we gorge ourselves upon the dead.
.
Like Carrion Crows we live and feed on meat,
Regardless of the suffering and pain
We cause by doing so, in this we treat,
Defenseless animals for sport or gain –
.
How can we hope in this world to attain
The peace we say we are so anxious for,
We pray for it o’er hetacomba of slain,
To God while outraging the moral law,
Thus cruelty begets the offspring — WAR !
Hearing this the gentleman became defensive. He complained that he eats only grass fed beef and beef has lot of iron , which is good for body etc, etc.
I told him eat spinach, thrice a week. Then came the reply I was waiting for and that was ” it takes a lot effort and time to cook spinach” Yes, this reply was enough to cut the conversation, I led him to our prasad distribution place and gave him a take way ( free) packed in nice plastic container to enjoy the food at home. Similar conversations I have had with many meat eaters and my conclusions are that humans in their zest for technology and brute competition have neglected agriculture , the first culture and the finest culture. In the process , they have become lazy to do agriculture. Mind you automatic slaughter houses are there everywhere and the ease of getting slaughtering with technology is on the rise. The feeding of cows with animal feed resulted in Mad cow disease, which means humans have deliberately introduced the virus into the earth. They were burning all the cows and giving it grand funeral in many western countires, suspecting that all animal fed cows have the Jacobi virus , which causes Mad cow disease. I have never come across such foolishness anywhere in the world.
Agriculture , even with automation and technology requires more hard work than slaughtering of animals for food. It is sheer laziness ( a degree of tamasic quality ) that has lead to meat eating.
India has had famines , some devastating ones, which is the reaosn for an agrarian society to break down. I have fed in slums in India. Many of the earlier generations were farmers and had a very healthy life style. The take over of agriculture lands has had a huge impact on farmers in India. Growth and more growth, at what cost. I have been to Bengal several times. Bengal is so green still even with mismanagement, that Bengal could be the breadbasket of India. No they want factories , all over fertile land. This is the root cause farmers migrating to slums. If this continues , then even small towns in India will have slums.
I became a vegetarian some 23-25 yrs back, but one thing is sure, I have found my spring in my feet again. I get up early , work as well. About the medical reports of meat eating being harmful etc , etc is true, but be sure a pro meating lobby giving their version of benefits. This is a game being played. Why read all this? Commom sense says ” Be a vegetarian”
Hare Rama Hare Krishna
Namaskar Krishnadas
I am delighted by your above views. Very well said! Agriculture need to be encouraged.
I also think we must prefer vegetable garden over ornamental gardening in evey big or small homes( who can keep pots and kitchen garden).
I remember my father who was in Indian Service, always got big homes, never encouraged ornamental gardening in front porch. Instead he will ask Tomato, eggplant, chili and herbs in the pots and asked my mom to put her energy in something productive(plants bearing vegetables and fruits) rather than unproductive show casing(ornamental plants in pots0. He still is the biggest critic of spending unnecassary time on anything that is unproductive Show casing.
Thanks for sharing your wonderful thoughts.
From More Red Meat, More Mortality by NICHOLAS BAKALAR (emphasis added):
Eating red meat is associated with a sharply increased risk of death from cancer and heart disease, according to a new study, and the more of it you eat, the greater the risk.
…The analysis, published online Monday in Archives of Internal Medicine, used data from two studies that involved 121,342 men and women who filled out questionnaires about health and diet from 1980 through 2006. There were 23,926 deaths in the group, including 5,910 from cardiovascular disease and 9,464 from cancer.
…after controlling for those and other variables, they found that each daily increase of three ounces of red meat was associated with a 12 percent greater risk of dying over all, including a 16 percent greater risk of cardiovascular death and a 10 percent greater risk of cancer death.
The increased risks linked to processed meat, like bacon, were even greater: 20 percent over all, 21 percent for cardiovascular disease and 16 percent for cancer.
If people in the study had eaten half as much meat, the researchers estimated, deaths in the group would have declined 9.3 percent in men and 7.6 percent in women.
Previous studies have linked red meat consumption and mortality, but the new results suggest a surprisingly strong link.
Somewhat related..From Could I bring myself to eat a guinea pig? By Paula Dear:
…
Indeed, some argue animals like this could be the future. Guinea pigs reproduce fast, taking up very little space and efficiently processing their simple diet of grass and vegetable scraps.
Raising cattle is a drain on resources, they point out. By comparison, guinea pig, squirrel, and other rodents are “low-impact protein sources”.
…
Matt Miller, a science writer for the US-based Nature Conservancy, is writing a book about the benefits of eating “unconventional” meats.
“Many animals that some consider ‘bizarre’ or ‘unconventional’ make a lot more sense – ecologically, economically, personally – to eat than modern, industrial meat,” he says.
Miller focuses on a number of rodents that are “abundant and can be sustainably harvested”, like squirrels, capybaras – the world’s largest rodent, also eaten in Venezuela – and guinea pigs.