Hinduism, “Caste System†and discrimination – Part II
This part begins from comments that were triggered following a post by Incognito (in which he referred to Nemo’c comment @ #51) on the earlier thread. Since it was in danger of getting overloaded (100+ comments already), I decided to move the recent comments here and start this new thread.
Please continue the discussion here…
I am reproducing excerpts from Nemo’s comment first (for context), followed by Incognito’s and others comments… Please read on:
*** COMMENTS BEGIN (CAUTION: Long Post) ***
Excerpts from Comment By Nemo (#51):
…
Hindus have had enough of the racist myth which christianism imposed on us (the Japhetic-Hamitic story). It’s rather the same as the Semitic-Hamitic story which the christians imposed on the poor Rwandans. We’re familiar with the outcome of *that* terrorist tactic:
“Christian Churches and Genocide in Rwanda†paper by Timothy Longman, Vassar College, for a conference on Genocide. http://faculty.vassar.edu/tilongma/Church&Genocide.html – Section “Christianity and the Construction of Ethnicity†That’s the section that contains the striking parallels with the christian AIT. If anyone reads that part, they�ll find it’s interesting to note how both in Rwanda’s case and India’s case, christians of the colonial era were only able to explain the perplexing extant social situation and phenotypical variety by recourse to some desperate invasion fiction.
It was the christian colonials from Britain who destroyed the Indian school system and prevented people from being educated. Just like they burnt up Hindus’ books on Ayurveda – http://www.hinduwisdom.info/European_Imperialism.htm. Also at that link, it quotes from “The Case for India – By Will Durant Simon and Schuster, New York. 1930″ (Will Durant is a historian):
— When the British came there was, throughout India, a system of communal schools, managed by the village communities. The agents of the East India Company destroyed these village communities, and took steps to replace the schools; even today, after a century of effort to restore them, they stand at only 66% of their number a hundred years ago. Hence, the 93 % illiteracy of India. —
And as Dharampal has shown in his meticulously researched “The beautiful Tree”, it was the same christian British that thwarted a great many Hindu communities who had been getting excellent education prior to the uninvited christian colonial meddling/destruction. Some of Dharampal’s stuff can be found at: http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1068 (At the bottom, it also discusses the use of Samskritam.)
Lest we uniquely blame the British for this most christian habit of vandalism, we must recall that they were but following what their predecessors – the christians of Rome – did to the Ancient ‘pagan’ Roman education system: destroy it. http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2b.htmÂ
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Comment By Incognito:
Nemo @ 51 mentions the article Christian Churches and Genocide in Rwanda.
- It is interesting to note that while ancient indian scriptures do not support the idea of a birth based caste system(Ramayana, written by a reformed robber, Mahabharata by the son of a fisherwoman, even Vedas compiled by the same son of fisherwoman, who are considered are Brahmins) , it is interesting to find out how and when the activity and temperament based varna system of the ancient indian scriptures turned into birth based caste system in english text books.The above mentioned article and the book The creation of Tribalism in Southern Africa on what happened in Africa gives a clue to what may have happened in India.Extract from the introduction of the book-
“missionaries were instrumental in creating cultural identities through their specification of ‘custom’ and ‘tradition’ and by writing ‘tribal’ histories, a process discussed in the chapters by Ranger, Vail and White, and Jewsiewicki. Once these elements of culture were in place and available to be used as the cultural base of a distinct new, ascriptive ethnic identity, it could replace older organizing principles that depended upon voluntary clientage and loyalty and which, as such, showed great plasticity. Thus firm, non-porous and relatively inelastic ethnic boundaries, many of which were highly arbitrary, came to be constructed and were then strengthened by the growth of stereotypes of ‘the other’(stress added), as the essays by Siegel and Papstein show…
…European missionaries, assuming that Africans properly belonged to ‘tribes’, incorporated into the curricula of their mission schools the lesson that the pupils had clear ethnic identities… â€In the indian context, caste was used to replace tribes and the missionaries worked with british colonialists.“missionaries educated local Africans (who)then themselves served as the most important force in shaping the new ethnic ideologies. These people—usually men—were keenly aware of the forces that were pulling apart their societies and, with the examples of nationalism in Europe derived from their own mission education before them, they sought to craft similar local movements as a means of countering these problems. Despite their own western-style education, they realized that such a construct would best be understood and accepted if it were put in a cultural idiom easily accessible to the people. Thus, in formulating their new ideologies, they looked to the local area’s past for possible raw material for their new intellectual bricolage. Like their European predecessors during the initial stages of nineteenth century nationalism, they ‘rediscovered’ the ‘true values’ of their people and so defined the ‘ethnic soul’. Their cultural strongbox was the ‘customs’ and ‘traditions’ of the people, identification with which they saw as giving an automatic, ascriptive cultural unity to ‘their’ people as they confronted the challenge of colonialism and the impact of industrialization. Virtually every study in this volume demonstrates the role of educated people as key actors in the creation of such ideology…â€Creation of Arya Samaj, Brahmo Samaj, Congress party etc., in India appears to follow this line of thought .“..In those societies where missionaries did not work, or where they did work but did not introduce education along western lines, or where African intellectuals emerged only at a late period or not at all, the development of ethnic ideologies was either stalled or never occurred.â€â€œâ€¦Ethnic identity, thus, came to be specified not only by the written histories, grammars, and accounts of ‘traditional customs’ produced by local culture brokers, but also—and in many respects, far more importantly—by the actual operation of the administrative mechanisms of indirect rule…â€
Seems very relatable to the pre-independance india.
“educated local Africans then themselves served as the most important force in shaping the new ethnic ideologies. Combined with the policies of colonial administrators and the popular acceptance of ethnic ideas as a means of coping with the disruptions of modernity, the actions of missionaries helped to create the deep social divisions that are at the root of ethnic conflict in many African countries.â€
Again, has a parallel to pre-independence India.
Extract from the article-
“The role of missionaries in the construction of ethnicity in Rwanda offers an excellent example of the process that Vail describes. In Rwanda, missionaries played a primary role in creating ethnic myths and interpreting Rwandan social organization — not only for colonial administrators, but ultimately for the Rwandan population itself. The concepts of ethnicity developed by the missionaries served as a basis for the German and Belgian colonial policies of indirect rule which helped to transform relatively flexible pre-colonial social categories into clearly defined ethnic groups. Following independence, leaders who were trained in church schools relied extensively on ethnic ideologies to gain support, thus helping to intensify and solidify ethnic divisions.â€
Apparently the imperial powers whether british or german or belgian practiced same tactics, most likely in collusion with each other. Max Mueller the german therefore worked for the british in India.
Antics of the british educated elite after independence in continuing with the british education system and creating divisions in society is comparable to what is narrated in the article.Seems like the politicians of India today are following the footsteps of imperial powers by dividing the populace.
What we are seeing today with the parties warring with each other over vote banks is similar to the tiffs between colonial powers which ultimately resulted in WWII and the end of colonial rule.
Will a similar thing happen in Indian political scene which will result in vote-bank playing parties weakening and nationalistic ideas gaining ground ?“When colonial administrators and Catholic missionaries arrived in Rwanda, they were enchanted by the Tutsi rulers they encountered. To the missionaries, the Tutsi seemed tall and elegant, with refined features and light skin, in some ways closer in appearance to Europeans than to their short, stocky, dark Hutu compatriots. As elsewhere in Africa, in order to convert the population in Rwanda, the missionaries considered it important to understand the indigenous culture and social structures, and the interpretations that came from their study of the culture greatly influenced both the colonial administration and, subsequently, Rwandan self-perceptions. Influenced by contemporary European notions of race which held that the world could be divided into clearly defined and hierarchically ranked racial and national groups, the missionaries, ignoring important divisions within each of the groups, viewed Hutu, Tutsi, and Twa as three distinct peoples representing three separate waves of immigration. They viewed the Twa as the autochthonous population, the original inhabitants of the region, who many centuries earlier were subdued by Bantu migrants from the west who became the Hutu. According to the missionary account, the Tutsi arrived from the northeast sometime later, around 1600, and because of their clear superiority, conquered the Hutu, whom they had ruled ever since. Doubting that Africans could have designed so complex and efficient a political system, the missionaries hypothesized that the Tutsi were not really African but a Hamitic or Semitic group from the Middle East, perhaps a lost tribe of Israel(emphasis added) .â€
How similar this sounds to the Aryan Invasion Theory and the division created between so-called Aryans and Dravidians.
“The Tutsi, not surprisingly, failed to challenge the missionaries’ assertions of their superiority and instead participated in the development of a mythico-history that portrayed them as natural rulers, with superior intelligence and morals. “
Again, parallels to how Brahmins and upper castes were patronised by british in india and their silence, which is natural when facing a gun.
“When the Catholic Church began to recruit native Rwandan clergy early in the century (the first native-born priest was ordained in 1917), they selected exclusively Tutsi, and these priests, nuns, and brothers played an important role in interpreting Rwandan history and culture. A group of Tutsi intellectuals emerged within the church — most importantly historian Alexis Kagame and Bishop Aloys Bigirumwami — whose anthropological and historical texts, based largely on oral histories, reinforced many of the ideas of strict ethnic separation and Tutsi political dominance. As Alison DesForges writes, “In a great and unsung collaborative enterprise over a period of decades, Europeans and Rwandan intellectuals created a history of Rwanda that fit European assumptions and accorded with Tutsi interests.†This history became widely accepted by Rwandans of all ethnicities, and following the transfer of power from Tutsi to Hutu after the 1959 revolution, Hutu leaders used the historical account of centuries of ethnically based exploitation to inspire support among the Hutu masses.â€
And how similar this sounds to the Brahmin/ Dalit divide in India.
And the Church inspired Maoists killing of Swami and others whose activities fostering indian culture undermines the nefarious activities of Church.
“When the genocide finally occurred, church personnel and institutions were, not surprisingly, intimately involved“.
This about Rwanda. But also true about Orissa recently.
In conclusion the article says-
“The complicity of the churches in the genocide is not merely a failing of Christianity in Rwanda, but of world Christianity as it has established itself in Africa, and it should lead people of faith throughout the world to question the nature of religious institutions and the ways in which they exercise their power.â€
The ideas brought out by the article and the book sheds light on how social engineering was carried out by the british in India during the time they ruled this country. It shows a pointer to how the colonials destroyed the indigenous education system and installed in its place something that deprived the indigenous people of their self-esteem and simultaneously created divisions in society which are now being exploited by power hungry politicians.
To conclude, an extract from the book-
“..Nationalism—and tribalism—have thus appeared uncertain and ambiguous to many observers.
Yet when one looks closely at the situation in southern Africa, one comes to realize that the ethnic message’s backward-looking aspects and its forward-looking concerns have been in no way contradictory. The emphases on past values, ‘rediscovered’ traditions, and chiefly authority were truly conservative—that is, they were calculated to conserve a way of life that was in the process of being rapidly undermined by the forces of capitalism and colonialism. â€Is it any wonder that in India nationalistic organisations such as RSS are opposed by the Church and the products of the british education system as being backward looking conservatives…
The ideas presented in the book and the article also give a warning of sorts to Indians on what could happen in future if the divisiveness in society created by the british and their successor politicians are allowed to go unchecked.
Indians needs to learn lessons from the mass killings of Rwanda as a result of reprisal acts committed by different ethinc groups.
In the Indian context, clashes between Maoists and Ranvir Sena are examples.
What is happening in Tamil Nadu are ominous.
So are the Church engineered murder of nationalistic Indians in Orissa.
Efforts by interested parties(read missionaries) in propagating ideas of Dalitistan and Dravidistan are also significant in the light of this information.
Jomo Kenyatta, the first Prime Minister and later President of independent Kenya said:-
“When the Missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the Missionaries had the Bible. They taught how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the land and we had the Bible.â€Hope the following quote will not come to pass for India-
“They came with ideas of secularism and classless society and Indian thought them good and shut his eyes. When he opened his eyes, they had his land and he had nothingâ€
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Comment by Jayadevan:
Really high-flown discussions. The posts have really added to my knowledge. That all are happy with their place in the caste system, which is not as discriminatory as the Western media and missionaries would have us believe. That the caste system is both part of our culture and (just the evils may be) an aberration caused by foreign invaders. That the world over, people have been practising worse forms of discrimination, so the Indian low castes should count their blessings. So I do get confused.
Maybe there was never and is not a system of classifying people by occupation (never by birth, I am told), with various classes occupying higher and lower positions in society. I do know that there was a different scale of punishment for crimes (at least in Kerala) where the leniency was in direct proportion to altitude on the caste scale, but maybe this was an aberration. What are we trying to do? Justify the caste system? Deny the discrimination? Say there are blacker kettles than our pot? Say that the niggers are happy in their little cabins ( I note that when people feel that they are on the reverse end of the stick, they sing a different tune – see Tamil Nadu)? Blame someone else for the defects in our society?
- Are we so afraid of what others will think of us if we introspect? Hindus are not limited by the fear of being charged of apostasy like the Muslims or Christians – and even they have a million interpretations of their faith. We have no book that holds us to any particular way of thinking. So why should we carry this albatross round our neck in the fear that Hinduism will become unraveled if we throw caste in the garbage can?The fact is that all we are, our culture, our upbringing, our relatively better educational background, our relative wealth, is based on a system that treated a certain class of people as lesser humans, albeit useful, and held them from revolt by making them believe that their place in life was exactly that. Caste is not confined to India. It existed in all societies, except perhaps in the Nordic lands where real democracy was a fact of life from very far back. The fact is that society needed a subservient class in order to maintain the superiors. Now it was inevitable that these subhumans would rebel at times and no physical force could hold them down. So a system in which they could be indoctrinated to hold themselves down had to be devised. Britain had its class system, Russia had the serfs, Japan had its Eta, we have the Shudras and of course, beyond and below the purview of the Varnas, the Panchamas, who do not even qualify to be called human. Shambuka (a shudra) could at least aspire to do tapa. Because he was part of the Varna Sampradaya, he could transgress. But a Panchama had no hopes of even that. He was a beast, along with the cows and goats an economic resource to be used.We get a cow impregnated and take care that it delivers safely. If the offspring is female, well and good, if male, we let it live if we want a bullock. Otherwise we kill it (Ahimsavadis kindly let it starve) and put the skin on a framework of twigs the mother can smell, so her output does not do down. After the cow becomes less economically viable, we slaughter it by a long-drawn process of denial of food. The carrion comes handy to feed the Chamars. And the hide goes to make drums which are deva vadyas. The Panchama is also seen as a precious resource. Who would abuse or misuse a precious resource? They were disciplined, certainly. Don’t you put a nose ring on a bull? Does that show that you degrade it? Some are kind to their animals. A cow treated kindly gives more milk. In the same way..This system worked perfectly well for years. There is no call to say that this was not part of our culture. That would be an untruth. I call myself an upper caste Hindu and I have to acknowledge the fact that my culture, my upbringing, my relative wealth is all based on systematic exploitation of these resources. That does not make me want to apologize. That does not want me to surrender my privileges.Now if you will argue that this treatment is not civilized and should go out with the advent of modern thought, I can give you the example of Germany, which was considered the then most advanced of European countries, using Jews and Gypsies as labourers first and then harvesting their hair, the gold in their teeth, their body fat and even their skin for lampshades. Nothing was wasted. After a few years, they might have started to call them Kaamadhenu.So, why nitpick? Do we have Manu on trial here? The poor man or men described what was being thought at that time. Are we supposed to justify him, when we do not even know whether Manu was one man or a group of people who collated and interpolated over the years? Do we carry the sins of our forefathers that we need to justify them or apologize for them? Or do we move forward after giving the people whom we oppressed for centuries a couple of generations to catch up with us? This does not call for great sacrifices. We are getting off cheap.
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Comment by Incognito (EDITED)
@ Jayadevan Padri- 125
>>>â€I do know that there was a different scale of punishment for crimes (at least in Kerala) …â€
Then why didn’t …beloved britishers who ruled that state for 200 years not change that?
Or your Godfathers in Kerala Congress or CPM whom you voted to power for the next 60 years.
>>>â€The fact is that all we are, our culture, our upbringing, our relatively better educational background, our relative wealth, is based on a system that treated a certain class of people as lesser humans, albeit useful, and held them from revolt by making them believe that their place in life was exactly that.â€
Yes…britishers did that to the Negros. They did much the same to Indians too for 200 years.
Good that you acknowledge that.
>>>â€Caste is not confined to India. It existed in all societies, …â€
Yeah everywhere…wretched britishers set foot.
>>>â€The fact is that society needed a subservient class in order to maintain the superiors. “
That is the justification…britishers gave. It is not valid today.
>>>â€But a Panchama had no hopes of even that. He was a beast, along with the cows and goats an economic resource to be used.â€
Yeah that is how…britishers used men.
>>>â€This system worked perfectly well for years. â€
Well. It does not anymore.
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
@ Incognito: Pl. stick to substantive points in your arguments.
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Related Posts:
Utterly shameful and “inexcusable”
Caste, Varna and Jatis: The need for clarity in intellectual “debate”
Hinduism, “Caste System†and discrimination – Join the debate
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Somewhat relevant to this discussion, here is an interesting graphic courtesy Prasanna:
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Dharampals bks can be downloaded from
http://www.samanvaya.com/dharampal/
Go to his published works and see the Beautiful Tree. A monumental piece of work. It is huge one. Takes time to read, but worth the effort and read.
In my study on BR Ambedkar , I came across some interesting facts. Even though he was not allowed to study Sanskrit , he learnt Sanskrit
“Ambedkar studied Sanskrit partly by himself and sometimes with the help of pandits and himself became a pandit. In his opinion , Persian stands no comparion with Sanskirt as the latter , observes he, is the golden treasure of epics , the cradle of grammar, politics and philosophy and the home of logic , dramas and criticism (Ref: Hudlikar Prof , Satyabodh, The Navayug, Ambedkar Special Number, 13 April, 1947) The para abstracted from BR Ambedkar , His Life and mission by Dhanankay Keer. This book has run into several editions”
BRA wanted to establish a Sanskrit studies chair at Bonn.
See the web site below.
http://www.maren-bellwinkel.de/artikel/ambedkar.htm
The one below is the best for the objectivity of BRA.
http://tilak.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/08/bheemayanam-a-biography-of-dr-ambedkar-in-sanskrit.htm
“A dispatch of the Press Trust of India (PTI) dated September 10, 1949 states that Ambedkar was among those who sponsored an amendment making Sanskrit as the official language of the Indian Union in place of Hindi. Most newspapers carried the news the next day, i.e., on September 11, 1949 (see the issue of Sambhashan Sandeshah, a Sanskrit monthly published from Delhi , June 2003: 4-6).
Other dignitaries who supported Dr Ambedkar’s initiative included Dr B.V. Keskar, then the Deputy Minister for External Affairs and Professor Naziruddin Ahmed. The amendment dealt with Article 310 and read: 1.The official language of the Union shall be Sanskrit. 2. Notwithstanding anything contained in Clause 1 of this article, for a period of fifteen years from the commencement of this constitution, the English language shall continue to be used for the official purposes of the union for which it was being used at such commencement: provided that the President may, during the said period, by order authorise for any of the official purposes of the union the use of Sanskrit in addition to the English language . But the amendment was defeated in the Constituent Assembly due to the opposition of the ruling Congress Party and other lobbyists.
If Ambedkar had succeeded, the renewed interaction between Sanskrit as the national language and speakers of other languages would have initiated a sociological process of upward and downward mobility. While rulers, pilgrim centres, and temple complexes used to be the traditional agents of such interaction, the state operated broadcasting agencies, school textbooks, and the film and music industry would have emerged as new agents facilitating that interaction”
Even though he was denied the learning of Sanskrit earlier by the pundits, he saw all things objectively and knew what Indian ethos was , even while converting to Buddhism in 1956. A true visionary. His controversy with MK Gandhi over special electoral roles for Dalits etc needs a special study. It is beyond the scope of this presentation, but his view on Sanskrit over Macualay’s children is a visionary’s piece de resistance
Incognito’s comments are pretty cheap, and very close to abuse, if not abuse.
What are they doing on your blog, Shantanu?
The writeups by Nemo and Incognito above are one of those rare articles I’ve come across and has plethora of information. Thanks to both of them.
I believe it will be of great use to Sahadevan as well to understand the missionary’s role in our system. But I believe he is so absorbed by wrong definitions of varnasrama system that is clearly reflecting in his writeups. For ex, when he mentions about panchama, he shows no understanding of what characters make a panchama. A simple question he can explore is who is categorized as panchama and why? Btw, there were hardly any panchamas.
â€I call myself an upper caste Hindu and I have to acknowledge the fact that my culture, my upbringing, my relative wealth is all based on systematic exploitation of these resources.†– This may be true for Sahadevan but not for most upper caste. Till the beginning of colonial time, upper caste have always been the poorest of poor. When missionaries came, after happened, varna system collapsed. Missionaries divided people by destroying the value system and by looting money.
Ambetkar didn’t have this much hatred, even his mentor was a brahmin, but only after his period this hate campaign started which is continuing till day, such haters blame upper caste and it helps ateists, converts and false intellects to build on it.
In the Mahabharata, I remember the great Arjuna saying he will not fight Karna, as he is a “sutar’s son” despite being trained by the great Parshurama …… and, we say birth-based caste system was introduced to our Bharatavarsha by the British?
I will have whatever it is that you are smoking, Incognito.
Adding to my earlier comment, I referred to the original post by Incognito and nemo. I do not appreciate Incognito’s response to jayadeva as it is very personal and abusive.
@Nanda:
“Ambetkar didn’t have this much hatred, even his mentor was a brahmin, but only after his period this hate campaign started which is continuing till day, such haters blame upper caste and it helps ateists, converts and false intellects to build on it.”
Way to go ….. name-calling could always win you some plaudits.
Cheers
@Patriot,
I apologise if you perceived it that way. There is no name calling, I don’t need to as well, as anyone who can read english will understand writer’s position on the topic. My message is, castes are not right and must be demolished, but without hurting each others sentiments. Even if I’m a bad guy, I don’t have right to tell that everyone in my caste is bad.
Fair enough, Nanda. There has been a lot of denial on the caste issue on this forum, including blaming the “foreign hand” (snark!) – so, I was not sure.
Cheers
@ Patriot: Thanks for alerting me to Incognito’s comment…It does cross the line…I must have been too tired when I posted this y’day close to midnight…Anyways, it is now edited.
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@ Incognito: No personal abuse please…It helps to pursuade people if the language is civil and the points are made in a gentle manner.
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@ Jayadevan: I apologise for letting these comemnts stay on the site…and I hope that we will continue to enjoy your participation and views in these discussions. Thanks.
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All: In case you have not read this before, pl. have a look at my comment moderation policy
@ Shantanu-9,
Nemo in the begining of this post observed thus-
““Patriot†was not trying to discuss inhumane social practises but rather hurled accusations against Hinduism from the first. “
That observation speaks a lot.
Allow me to deconstruct Jayadevan’s comment and make clear what I observed-
The various comments in the earlier two threads and resources linked therein provides a wide range of information and compelling reasons to arrive at conclusions.
Instead of providing verifiable facts against the thoughts expressed there, Jayadevan indulges in a lot of sarcasm, insinuations and worse.
1. He starts off with sarcasm- “Really high-flown discussions. The posts have really added to my knowledge….”
So allow me also to indulge in a bit of sarcasm later.
2. Then comes insinuation that the comments here lead to this conclusion- “That the world over, people have been practising worse forms of discrimination, so the Indian low castes should count their blessings.”
3. Then an oblique thrust at the characteristics-based Varna system”…(never by birth, I am told), …”
4. Then comes insinuation again without supportive fact “I do know that there was a different scale of punishment for crimes (at least in Kerala) …”
5. Then throw some rhetoric in good measure“What are we trying to do? Justify the caste system? Deny the discrimination? Say there are blacker kettles than our pot?”
6. Then back to insinuation that commentators here meant this- “Say that the niggers are happy in their little cabins ? “
7. And an implicit assertion that defects are integral to our society which the commentators here are trying to blame someone else for -“Blame someone else for the defects in our society?”
8. Then more insinuation that we are afraid of what others think –“Are we so afraid of what others will think of us if we introspect? ”
9. Then comes the suggestion that Indians have no guiding books, overlooking the enormous amount of literature in the form of Vedas, Upanishads numbering hundred, Puranas, Bhramanas……- “We have no book that holds us to any particular way of thinking.” The intent here is to plant the idea that Indians have nothing of guiding value, everyone is free to interpret everything as per his wish and live as he wish. The message being planted is – don’t look for guiding information in ancient indian scriptures. Everything goes.
10. After rambling about albatrosses around neck and caste in garbage can, comes this innuendo dressed up as fact- “The fact is that all we are, our culture, our upbringing, our relatively better educational background, our relative wealth, is based on a system that treated a certain class of people as lesser humans, albeit useful, and held them from revolt by making them believe that their place in life was exactly that.”
11. Then one more innuendo couched as ‘fact’ – “The fact is that society needed a subservient class in order to maintain the superiors. ”
12. Now the plant, the ‘reason’ for caste system, riding on the two above innuendos – “Now it was inevitable that these subhumans would rebel at times and no physical force could hold them down. So a system in which they could be indoctrinated to hold themselves down had to be devised.”. Sounds like the reasoning one would imagine being taught in a ______ , well, since freedom of expression around here being what it is- ‘a place where some people are brought up to go out and proselytize’ .
13. Please refer to sl no 2 above. That innuendo is given substance here – “Britain had its class system, Russia had the serfs, Japan had its Eta, we have the Shudras and of course, beyond and below the purview of the Varnas, the Panchamas, who do not even qualify to be called human.“. See how bad we are? Unlike all those rational foreigners we Indians had to de-humanise some people. Implicit is the message that class sytem was accepted practice the world over, it was prevalent in India also, but you Indians should feel guilty that you de-humanised your people.
14. Then some words of relief to the guilt feeling indian- “Shambuka (a shudra) could at least aspire to do tapa. Because he was part of the Varna Sampradaya, he could transgress.”
15. As soon as the indian starts breathing again with some relief that ‘his‘ caste system was not so bad after all, comes the hit below the belt – “But a Panchama had no hopes of even that. He was a beast, along with the cows and goats an economic resource to be used.”
16. After declaring ‘Panchama’ as a beast on behalf of ancient indian culture, comes something that will confuse even a balanced person – “We get a cow impregnated and take care that it delivers safely. ” WoW!
What was that?
17. While the poor indian is trying to make out who this ‘We’ happens to be in the above salvo that achieved such a biologically difficult if not impossible feat, the sermon has moved on to offsprings- “If the offspring is female, well and good, if male, we let it live if we want a bullock. ” So the indian lets go of the hitherto unsuccessful efforts to make sense of the biological riddle and tries to follow the sermon like a calf holding to the straw of hope that perhaps the offspring will live to be a bullock.
18. But alas, all his hopes are immediately shattered – “Otherwise we kill it (Ahimsavadis kindly let it starve) and put the skin on a framework of twigs the mother can smell, so her output does not do down. “.
Lesson for you indians- You who talk of Ahimsa are very ccccrrruuuel. You make the male calf starve. Mark the operative words – ‘kindly let it starve’. This is your kindness!
Try to feel more guilty if you can.
More lessons- not satisfied with the cruel act of killing a calf you do worse by cheating the poor mother cow to feed your greed!
Did anybody mention that cows are worshipped in India?
That Indians oppose cow-slaughter vehemently?
All that is not part of today’s sermon. They will be part of a later sermon that will educate you more about the superstitious beliefs your ancestors held, how they worshipped dumb animals and how some of them drank its urine…
19. For today’s sermon, merely understand that -“ After the cow becomes less economically viable, we slaughter it by a long-drawn process of denial of food. “ Since the indian is already stumped by this ‘We’ that is said to have achieved a logically impossible biological feat mentioned before, he keeps quiet about this ‘We’ that slaughters cow.
20. Then- “The carrion comes handy to feed the Chamars.”. See, your ancestors were charitable after all. They fed the Chamars.
If you want to feel guilty that it was carrion that was fed, feel free.
21. “And the hide goes to make drums which are deva vadyas. “ You didn’t know that, did you? The hide of the poor economically unviable cow that was starved to death is used to make the drums with which you worship your Gods. So imagine what sort of Gods you have. Feel more guilt if you can. We will come to those Gods in another sermon.
22. Next- “The Panchama is also seen as a precious resource.“. Oh!
The battered mind of the Indian looks up nervously. What next ? will it get some relief…?
23. And he is faced with this ambivalent question calculated to make him abandon all attempts at holding on to his sanity- “Who would abuse or misuse a precious resource?
24. The even more confusing answer follows- “They were disciplined, certainly. “
The indian having abandoned attempts to make out where all this is leading stumbles on…
25. And he encounters another ambivalent question- “Don’t you put a nose ring on a bull? “
26. And while he tries to recollect any memory of putting a nose ring on a bull, he gets another question- “Does that show that you degrade it? ” Huh?
27. Before he gathers his wits, comes a solemn statement to make him abandon all such efforts-“Some are kind to their animals. “ So he starts to wonder whether he is part of that kindly ‘some’.
28. “A cow treated kindly gives more milk.” Fair enough. But now comes the clincher, ominous and loaded with sublte innuendo-” In the same way..”
The indian abandons efforts to conjure up the horrors that his ancestors have been doing ” in the same way…”.
29. Now the assertion- “This system worked perfectly well for years.“. The ‘system’ here refers to the innuendo at sl 10 above.
Truth by repeated assertions is an art practised by some.
Which are the years that this ‘system’ worked is conveniently not mentioned.
30. One more loaded suggestion- “There is no call to say that this was not part of our culture.”
31. Followed by a bit sermon designed especially for this blog -‘ “That would be an untruth. ”
32. So if you guys are really gung-ho about ‘satyameva-jayate‘, repeat after me– “I call myself an upper caste Hindu and I have to acknowledge the fact that my culture, my upbringing, my relative wealth is all based on systematic exploitation of these resources. ” . Amen!
Good, now you must repeat it everyday before you go to sleep until you internalise this propaganda.
33. “That does not make me want to apologize. That does not want me to surrender my privileges.” Why?
Because all ‘that’ was done by your ancestors whose partiality for dumb animal worship I will shortly touch upon.
So long as you diswon your ancestors and join the flock, your shepherd will forgive all your sins.
34. “Now if you will argue that this treatment is not civilized and should go out with the advent of modern thought….”
If you entertain any idea of arguing or talking back….
35. …I will make you relive horror- ” I can give you the example of Germany, which was considered the then most advanced of European countries, using Jews and Gypsies as labourers first and then harvesting their hair, the gold in their teeth, their body fat and even their skin for lampshades. Nothing was wasted.“. Mind you, ‘then most advanced of European countries‘. All those of you who claim to have had an advanced culture during ancient times, understand how ‘advanced’ you really were. You were like the Nazis.
Remember the holocast, Remember the inhuman way the Germans slaughtered people? Feel the horror of it.
35. Now, if you have felt sufficiently horrible and revolted about the imagery created in the above sentance, here comes the crowning shot- ” After a few years, they might have started to call them Kaamadhenu.
You know what Indians, even the Nazis did not reach the depraving levels you indians have been wallowing in. They had not reached the stage where they named the hapless Jews and Gypsies ‘Kaamadhenu’ like you guys have been doing to your fellow beings.
Now take that and grieve forever in your life.
Indians, Thee have Sinned! Thy ancestors have sinned!
Btw, don’t you forget who stopped the Nazis from reaching those depraving levels.
Yeah.
36. Some more innuendo towads the end intended to jarr what is left of the mind of the indian- “So, why nitpick? Do we have Manu on trial here? The poor man or men described what was being thought at that time. Are we supposed to justify him, when we do not even know whether Manu was one man or a group of people who collated and interpolated over the years?” Yeah, go try to figure out all that.
37. “Do we carry the sins of our forefathers that we need to justify them or apologize for them? ”
The word is ‘sin‘. There is more about sin which will form part of another sermon.
For now, know that thee hath sinned.
Remember lessons of sl 35 above.
If you still have doubts, know also that we all have sinned. And somebody has given up his life and magnamiously washed away all our sins. But that is a story I will tell you soon.
38. “This does not call for great sacrifices.”
Like I said, the magnamious sacrifice has been done by somebody else for you. You need only do what I tell you to, which I will, in the next sermon.
39. ” We are getting off cheap. .”
Yeah.
Look how I managed to have my way.
——————————————————–
The essence is that, despite having voluminous data available through the previous two threads, Jayadevan indulges in intellectual subversion with evidently ulterior motives.
The tactics employed here are similar to the ones employed sometimes by MSM and some so-called historians.
Innuendos, truth by repeated assertions, insinuations, generating guilt, confusing issues, ignoring verifiable facts and voluminous texts etc., are all employed extensively with malicious intent.
Recent motivated maligning of Karnataka govt, the sustained campaign against gujarat govt, refusal to accept truth about Ram Janmbhoomi etc.,are some of the many many examples.
My original reply to Jayadevan was intended to be a “Slap in the Face” metaphorically.
Unfortunate that it is edited.
The true indians who have been maligned so much for so long deserves his little moments of joy seeing the discomfiture of such subversive entities when they are given back in the same coin.
True patriots would feel offense seeing the deliberate degradation of their mother country and her ancient culture.
Which leads to the question, which country’s patriot is the one here who is not offended at the degradation of ancient indian culture, but at the reply given to the one who did that degradation.
Since I am supposed to be smoking whatever it is that I am smoking (see last line of comment no 4), allow me to speculate a bit-
It is well known that American armed forces are in the habit of launching patriot missiles.
Perhaps their missionary counterparts are not far behind…
Or maybe China made a copy like they are in the habit of doing…
Ok. I have stopped smoking now.
Just as examples of subversive tactics mentioned above abound in MSM, so also are ‘assumed indignation‘ and ‘intellectual intimidation‘ practised with the intent to subvert the minds of otherwise impartial people.
A recent example is how BJP was initially made to distance itself from the alleged comments of Varun Gandhi by a motivated media assault.
Also how Election Commision was made to act beyond its jurisdictional power in the same case, to prove that it is impartial and secular.
The same tactic is used by parties who ally with Muslim League(Congress) and Abdul Nasser Madani(CPM) to admonish and intimidate voters that if they vote for BJP they are communal.
Its a kind of intellectual blackmail.
When the people who indulge in such tactics are caught in the act and given back in the same coin, they come all out with aggrieved innocence, claiming to be misunderstood, abused and hurt. Their faked outrage would demand immediate appeasement of the claimed hurt. Very often they manage to have their way.
Such people are sometimes seen in few of the centrist blogs of the web as well, such as Bharat-Rakshak forum.
In many other blogs these people are seen through and given a well deserved hiding- metaphorically.
Would be good if we are careful about these forces and aware of their tactics, and on occasions, give a tight slap in their faces, figuratively.
@ Incognito: A hurried response…this is an incredible dissection…(and I mean it in a positive way). It is getting late now but I will try and respond tomorrow…In the meantime, I hope we can have Jayadevan’s response to some of the points you have raised…
…and I should also say “sorry” to you for mis-understanding your intent.
Thanks.
Incognito, I applaud you!
I’d think that many of Jayadevan’s comments are also off-topic and come across as bloviating instead of discussing the issue at hand.
The tactics used by certain people, as discussed in comment 10 above, notably by some in MSM, colonial historians, proselytizers, and some people masquerading as NGOs, ‘intellectuals’ and ‘social activists’, are done with the intent of suppressing critical thinking and subverting the intellect in order to further their selfish interest.
These tactics have yielded huge dividends in the past and that is why they have been developed and polished and sometimes internalised and used as a matter of course.
The way a large number of people all over the world have been made to disown their root culture and turn themselves away from their true nature which allows critical thinking, and to become like intellectual sheeps deserves deeper analysis. In the process of such subversion, lot of invaluable information have been lost and wilfully destroyed.
The native american culture, native African culture and traditions, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, original Persian and Arabic cultures, and of more relevance to india, the ancient indian culture, have all been deliberately and systematically damaged and sometimes completely destroyed by these subversive elements.
These tactics are a subject of deeper study by themselves.
How subtle suggestions are planted in the minds of people through innuendos, and insinuations, how these are presented couched as ‘facts’ which are then internalised by the victims and accepted as ‘facts’.
Like some of the demons of ancient indian stories are depicted as having numerous hands, each with different weapons, these entities are almost always multi handed each using different weapon of intellectual offense. And often they talk with multiple heads which are nevertheless attached to the same body. And when one head is cut off, another one takes its place.
In the face of such determined, devious, sustained and often subtle assault, most victims will be overwhelmed.
In cases where the tactics fail to achieve the objective and when some people with deep intellectual clarity fight these forces, the Brahmastra of these offensive entities come into play. They kill the people who put up resistance.
An example in recent times is the killing of Swami Lakshmananda and his disciples in Orissa.
Also, the systematic way in which RSS workers are being exterminated in Kerala and lately, in Orissa.
Not only adept at indulging in physical killings, they are also equally adept at killing off the intellectual respect and acceptance among general populace, of the people who put up resistance.
So, people such as NS Rajaram, Sita Ram Goel etc., are vilified at will.
Another example is the case of Kanchi Shankaracharya.
Yet another is the way RSS and other nationalist organisations are perennially given bad press.
They have been known to use guns ‘made in China’, to achieve their objectievs. Almost literally in the case of Swami Lakshmananda.
In the intellectual sphere, such guns are sometimes seen sitting in the chair of Editors of certain english newspapers that claim national status and CEOs and chief reporters of TV channels.
Sometimes, patriot missiles are seen launched on the web as well (;))
Lets see which weapon is going to be used now, which head is going to talk now.
Which aggrieved innocent is going to seek appeasement, outraged at the ‘abuse dished out here’.
Ambedkar was a true Nationalist. He did not take up the Abrahamic faiths as I have mentioned in my other posts and one feels that many have not given him the due he deserves. His was a genuine concern to uplift the dalits of India and he did it with great sophistication, unlike Father Periyar and his ilk down South who were very crude in their approach. The unfortunate thing is that when he asked for separate electorals for Dalits ( He clashed with MK Gandhi on this) , he was misunderstood and his discourse was changed by British as if he is supporting them. This aspect is still continued by many. The British changing discourse is well known. The outstanding example of changing discourse is the cimperialism in Slumdog millionaire, where they mutated a Ram Mohammed Thomas to Jamal.
About caste system , it takes its rigid form in Mahabharat, when mindless competition is introduced. One can explain , it in this way. When you see Veda Vyass’s origin , he is the son of Satyawati ( a fisherwoman) and Rishi Parashara. Vyasa, a son of mixed lineage wrote Mahabharat and probably was disgusted with the goings on. He wrote with great honesty and kudos to Vyasa and an encore in kudos for his brilliant narrative of Ekalavya episode.
Valmiki, described as a robber, a sweeper became Maharishi and even taught Lav and Kush when Sitamayi lived in Valmiki’s ashram. Now if you compare Valmiki’s discourse to Vyasa, it is not on a caste plane , but on a very moral plane, where Ramji takes advise of many Rishis, right from Vashist to Agastya. Even Sitamayi;s departure to Valmikis ashram is on a moral plane.
One feels that Mahabharat is after Ramayana , a Yug of a difference means millions of Canto years, which gives room for recasting the social order of caste in a more rigid form to suit the unsurping of power. Then now you have Kalyug , where hate is the palate of the intellect , which always sees humans in color or caste form , clearly for material desires and power.
The evolution of humans is clearly shown in the Dasavatars. Evolution of humans , brought in greed for all things , the most important power.
If all the Abrahamic religions come from the same thread and at different times in Kalyug, why were they fighting with each other for centuries. Millions have died due this. 50 million in WWII alone !!!!
If a Rishi like Valmiki had been there, he would have taken BR Ambedkar into his ashram and taught him all things. Unfortunately Ambedkar lived in Kalyug , a Yug evolved for a greed, power and materialism. Evolution has made humans intelligent , but in the process we have lost wisdom and the power to comprehend, how a social order has degenerated into a myriad world of discrimination.
Ramji does not anywhere in Ramayana say He is God. He lives and goes thru the tribulations like a human being, whereas in Mahabharat Lord Krishna says in one of the verses, ” I am Ved Sam Ved…..” which can be easily understood. There is great difference in both the approaches. More discussion later.
@ Incognito:
Before you start jumping with joy over Nemo’s remarks, I would suggest that you read the entire previous thread. Nemo got his/her knickers into a twist, thinking that I was propounding AIT, when my thesis was completely different.
And, Shantanu, I do not think it is fair to post Nemo’s remarks, without my rebuttals.
Cheers
@ Patriot: The intention was not to just show one side of the picture…This was inadvertent…but this is spiralling out of countrol…I am spending more time here than on work!
I had reproduced Nemo’s comment to give some context to Incognito’s post…Perhaps I should have just excerpted the bit abouT Rwanda – I have done that now..
***
All: Please do read Patriot’s various comments on the earlier thread – which was in fact kicked off by a comment of his (on another post)…Not because I ask you to…but because some of those comments are indeed thought-provoking and many of you would enjoy the debate.
Here is the link to the earlier thread…
Here is the link to Patriot’s chain of comments which led to Nemo’s response, starting with this at # 43
@ Patriot: Trust this is sufficient…Feel free to copy and paste any specific comments you may want here.
Thanks all for a spirited debate/discussion.
Now, back tto work…
@ Shantanu:
Thanks, mate.
And, I am sure this is more interesting than work in the current climate!
Cheers
Here’s a theory in simple words about the caste system in India. I find this theory useful to explain it to friends (Indian and non-Indian):
Bharat, as a society was always dynamic in thought, word and action.The varna concept of functional/professional groupings was never meant to stagnate and become rigid.In fact, for most part of its history, Bharatiya society practiced the varnasrama dharma in a fluid manner.While the accident of birth did confer some advantages, it was by no means ‘enough’ to be born as a prince or a priest.Each individual had to work towards attaining an acceptable level of knowledge, skills and attributes to be recognized for his/her worth.
This system of naturally evolving groupings served the society well for a long time.New groups were born/vanished across the country depending on supply-demand factors of the well-ordered economy which had the local community as a strong base.
As foreign invasions started happening, the functional groupings became more rigid and it became more difficult for people to order their lives/community with full freedom.Reactive and socially conservative thoughts kicked in, and ossification of social structures started.
And when the British colonised India, this whole process of reactionary measures, ossification, creation of caste identities etc got accelerated.Indians now started imagining the glory days of their culture instead of working towards making the society dynamic as ever.
The 1931 census may have nailed this and made it official, but caste stratification was really made possible by the earlier dubashees (translators) who mostly helped the gora sahibs understand the native culture, by using English and European terms for Indian concepts/phenomena.
Today, India is once again awakening.In the next 30-50 years, India will once again become Bharat and the society will revert to a healthy level of continuous flux – eventually making ‘caste’ irrelevant in its current sense, but ‘varna’still remaining a useful construct to order the society’s economic life.
While caste system based on birth as it is known today is of no meaning, I think the original Varna system had a lot of meaning.
It was about the characterstics within us.
For us to excel as individuals and for our nation to progress, it is essential that each one of us think like a Brahmana– one who has realised Brahma, fight like a Kshatriya– for righteousness , generate wealth like a Vyshya– for economic well being of ourselves, family, community and country and work like a Sudra– with the attitude of service.
Thank you.
Refer to comment no 21.
We cannot think like a Brhamana until we realise Brahma.
We cannot fight like a Kshatriya until we discern what is righteousness and fight to uphold it without expectation of results.
We cannot generate wealth unless we adopt the qualities of a Vyshya and thus become one ourselves.
We cannot work like a Shudra unless we internalise the attitude of service.
Therefore, to think like a Brahmana we have to become one- realise Brahma.
To fight like a Kshatriya we have to become one- fight to uphold righteousness unconcerned about results.
To generate wealth like a Vyshya, we have to become one- internalise techniques that generate wealth.
To work like a Shudra, we have to become one- work with the attitude of service.
@ Kumar: Thanks for sharing your explanation.
***
@ Incognito: Thanks for your comments…I liked the way you have drawn the analogy…
I completely agree with Varna system arrangement. And completely blame outsider or other factors of the country turning it into caste system and discrimination.
When I see Dalai-Lama and his troop sufferings. Their spiritual conscious cannot fight Chinese. Incognito also mentioned that. Beside spiritual conscious they need soldiers to protect that Dharma. And that is the reason we had Brahmin-Rishis, Saints and Kshtriyas-soldiers for protecting the Dharma and Rishis. And I bet there can be any best soldiers as Bharat! undoubtly! Once they take up, victory is for sure. And contribution of Shudra and Vyshya was not little. I cannot elaborate more but deep within me sees one of the best arrangemnet of Varna system in the past. Lets not under-estimate the power of spiritual mind to fight it owns, but than they wouldnot be spiritual soul, if they need to hurt others.
Hi Everyone,
I have been following this and the countless other threads and other topics on this wonderful forum. Admittedly am completely new to this group. The honesty, clarity, research orientation of the viewers/commentators is exemplary barring a few who always seem to have a hatred towards Hinduism for some reason – they cannot support this with ‘facts’ though.
But unfortunately, no ground work is being done to awaken the common public in India about these. All this honest research was supposed to be done by the Govt of India – with the right spirit immediately after achieving the independence. But thanks to that dreaded venom called Congressian/Nehruvian dynastic politics intermingled with the zealous missionaries in their quest to blindly convert people has ensured that some honest introspection and research in Hinduism has not taken off full fledged Something on the lines what Dr Ajai Singh on another thread is the need of the hour – building schools nationwide by organizations determined to bring up Bharat and its people in general to past glory.
But my point is, how do we propagate these thoughts,research work to the common people of India. Media is the only option but we know how the English dominated Indian media is today. The common people of India – those who do not have access to the internet to go through these forums have been wasting their precious time in watching useless TV serials/Bollywood movies/News channels. And 80-90% of Indians are not really intersted in the true History of Bharat, thanks to the British introduced History curriculum in schools. Thats what the general public – even the educated ones – thinks is history.
Unless all this useful study and research and ‘real’ truth 🙂 of Hinduism is brought out in public to a large audience its going to be an uphill monumental task to resurrect Hinduism and Bharat in general.
My 2 cents on this particular discussion
Varna system of the modern world – practised worldwide
Brahmins – modern day scientists, Technologists, research workers, doctors etc with temples like ISRO, DRDO, NASA, Google 🙂
Kshatriyas – Defence forces
Vaishyas – CxOs, business owners, entrepreneurs, etc of today
Kshudras – s/w engineers, middle managers in any organization, construction workers, on field farmers.
I am a kshudra by profession today. No qualms about that :). Now then, will I be allowed into ISRO without gaining the requisite amount of qualification – nope not at all. Nor will I be allowed in the secret/confidential corporate level discussions of the CXO, VPs etc of my company until and unless I am qualified to do so and reach that position.
Caste based reservation system of India aims to do this exactly! Notice the amount damage this will cause the country in the long run.
So why blame Hinduism for all ills of Bharat? This system of differentiation exists even today and is quite meaningful as well. So was the Varnshrama Dharma of ancient Bharat!
-Proud Hindu
Vikram
shall reply in some time
Vikram Cavale described the caste system in present day world perfectly. Hats off to him.
Kaliyuga has the character when Brahmins (Scientists, Philosophers, Doctors etc) and Kshatriyas (Police and Army Men) will take the back stage and Vaishyas (Corporate Players), Shudras (Politicians) and Malechchas the despicable creed of society which breeds germs of riots and genocide will take the front stage.
At present, country has zero respect for Police and Army Men who die regularly at hands of malechchas and spend time listening to whims and fancies of shudras, the class of politicians. The vaishyas think they are the new kings of world and people love them for money power they wield. And we have the malechchas, the despicable lot, the creed of seculars, christians and moslems, the perpetual perpetrators of riots and genocide.
A few relevant comments moved here from this post:
***
Comment by kk
Shantanu,
Thanks for the links. I went through the debate on the above posts. Debaters are always preoccupied with Hinduism, caste system, how it evolved, how MSM potrays it, catholic church, CPM, politics around it etc.
Did you miss that NO SOLUTIONS are offered to current situation? Its nothing more than just intellectual self-indulgence.
In my opinion: Very few people support caste based discrimination. But we are always more eager to provide a historical perspective and criticize everyone else.
In my opinion, this video really deserves attention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBxy1R0jitM. Could be FRONT and CENTER in one of your posts followed by a question:
We acknowledge that PRESENTLY there is a problem to solve:(caste based discrimination EXISTS even now in our society). Please offer on how you would help the current situation.
In my opinion, this social evil of gigantic proportions currently requires more attention than many other problems if India wants a positive future. I am hopeful that if we solicit solutions (than always critically beating the historicity of the problem and nitpicking each other endlessly about it) we can have a more positive impact in the long run. Learn from each other. Acknowledge the problem. Ask for what solutions people can offer.
May I call upon all the frequent debaters here to offer solutions: Rohit, Salil, Patriot, Indian, Dr. Sabhlok, gajanan, Khandu, Harapriya, jayadevan, Incognito, Dipinder, Ajitabh das, Shelke or anyone else. I am really eager to see the smart creative educated minds offer positive solutions to current status since they seem to understand the background of the problem much better than me.
Shantanu, I don’t expect you or any one to champion the Dalit cause or try to solve the problem overnight. I’m trying to use (hijacking?) popular forums on your blog to solicit solutions from people who are interested in creating a better tomorrow. Please, I’m eager to hear solutions to the current state of Indian society. There is enough discussion about evolution and history of the problem and criticism. Pardon my impatience 🙂
***
Comment by Shantanu
@ KK: I finally managed to have a glimpse at the video (about 5 mins of it; I will see the rest later).
There are NO easy solutions…yes, this IS a problem and is possibly not acknowledged enough.
The “solution†should involve at least the following iniatives (these are quick thoughts, off the top of my head):
1] MASSIVE investment in sewerage and waste disposal infrastructure (so that the need for people to do the sewer jobs goes away)
2] MASSIVE investment in education and infrastructure in semi-urban and rural areas. Education is a pre-condition to employability and livelihood which is critical to a sense of self-respect.
3] Even more specifically, targeted investment for improving girl child/women’s health and education.
You may also find this article thought provoking.
More later.
***
Comment by kk
Shantanu,
Thanks for your reply. I think you missed the point:
1. That video is not just about building sewage disposal system. It just exposes how we think. Your reply seems to imply that until we build sewage system, let bhangis do the job (I know you don’t intend this). The example shown in the video is just a sample. I hope you see what I mean.
2. Yes, we need Massive investment in education. I agree completely. i also agree that women’s health and education are key to progress.
What I am questioning is this: What are we doing socially to change the hearts, minds and attitudes of people? Are we not serious about the future of our country? We make such a mountain our of a mole hill if some one interchanges caste/varna/jaati, but isn’t that tacit admission of the problem which we are so unwilling to address?
I am born in brahmin caste (whatever that means!). I have seen the attitude of many of my relatives in close quarters regarding this caste business. Even the infighting within different communities within brahmins disgusts me. I have seen what happens in temples and mathas . The ground realities are very harsh. If we are serious about having a place on the world map in the 21st century, we should have the guts to acknowledge the problem.
As of now, sorry to say, people from higher castes are not seriously addressing this social evil (this is based on my personal experience). It is only going to come back and bite us. Only a dalit can truly understand the discrimination meeted out to them. Get someone to write a guest post for this blog.
Again I ask: Can anybody point me to any honest concerted grass roots effort being done by any of our leaders to get rid of this caste based division of society??
@ KK: A hurried reply (once again) to your comment reproduced above…
I think you have exaggerated some of these issues to highlight the problem but let us get a sense of perspective here…
I don’t see this problem going away in next 100 years at least.
I am almost certain that itWILL go away..not because of the government, not (just) because of concerted efforts but because of economic development and urbanization. In a local train in Mumbai, no one asks the caste of the person standing next to him/her.
All I see intellectual educated elites of the country (who may happen to be from upper castes to begin with):
1.) DO NOT acknowledge the seriousness of the problem.
2.) DO NOT give it the priority it deserves.
Again, I disagree. There are numerous small-scale, local level initiatives that are happening around India (a reasonably large and well-known is “Sulabh”)
3.) Basically whatever we are doing is HIGHLY inadequate.
Possibly…
***
Shantanu…I think you missed the point:
No I did not…The video is obviously not about sewerage…and no, it does not expose how we think, ANY person who is thinking of a “solution” while watching the video will say what I said…The video is NOT about the sewerage but addressing that is important…
What I am questioning is this: What are we doing socially to change the hearts, minds and attitudes of people?
If you are familiar with the work of some RSS-inspired/ affiliated organisation in semi-urban and rural areas, you probably know at least of a few initiatives that are addressing this issue. There are alos NGOs in cities who aim to change this situation not just be educating and empowering the Dalit – but also by “educating” the upper caste.
We make such a mountain our of a mole hill if some one interchanges caste/varna/jaati
That is an unfair accusation. There are at least a dozen posts on this blog and you pick up this one (written more than four years ago) as an example of “our” attitude. Pl do have a look at some of the links below:
How about reforms in Hinduism?
Is this too much to ask?
Secondly, I believe it is important to challenge the labels and the words…This is exactly how stereotypes and prejudices get entrenched…The loose terminology is not accidental – it is quite deliberate, meant to impress upon us that there is NOTHING in the ancient culture and heritage that is worthy of being preserved or being proud of (and I am not talking about the caste system here). So the intellectual response is essential, in my view…not that it makes the problem go away but at least sensitises a few people.
Get someone to write a guest post for this blog:
I would be delighted. Any names? specific sugestions (email me at jaidharma AT gmail.com)
Can anybody point me to any honest concerted grass roots effort being done by any of our leaders
By “leaders”, I think you mean “Political leaders” – and I am sure you know the answer to that.
Whatever is being done is by social activists and NGOs.
Finally, a request for you: Can you pl. share your prescription for what needs to be done?
@ Shantanu –
“If you are familiar with the work of some RSS-inspired/ affiliated organisation in semi-urban and rural areas, you probably know at least of a few initiatives that are addressing this issue.”
This is part of the problem, not the solution – If the RSS is indeed working for the hindu good, why does it itself not come out openly and aggressively against all forms of caste discrimination.
Imagine how much more press Bhagwat would get, if he starts each and every one of his addresses by saying that the RSS abhors and will work against caste discrimination and that this is not part of the true “hindu” ethos.
The key point is why RSS-inspired, why not the RSS???
Of course, given that all their top functionaries are “brahmins”, that might be a tough ask, eh? Another reason why the Parivar will only be remembered for creating evil in India, and not good – when they will not even grasp the low hanging fruits.
cheers
@ Patriot: To the best of my knowledge, the RSS and its affiliated organisations, have spoken against this practice several times in the past, right at the highest levels.
For instance I believe that there is a resolution going back to about 25-30 years that was passed by the Acharya Sabha (the highest body representing Hindu saints and Math leaders) which reaffirmed that untouchability and caste discrimination had no religious sanction in the Hindu scriptures and texts.
Similarly the VHP has been working on getting Dalits ordained as priests in temples across India.
Agreed that they could be more vociferous about this (e.g. see this post in which I had mentioned their conspicuous silence) but to say that they sanction this practice is taking it too far, I think.
@ Shantanu –
My point is if there is a single point agenda that can galvanise the entire hindu polity – it is the removal of caste discrimination and humane treatment of “lower caste” people. So, why is this not on the top of the RSS agenda (and BJP, for that matter)? This is far, far more powerful than talking confusedly about hindutva and what constitutes it, and whether it is inclusive or exclusive, etc
Start a one-point program on this issue – what stops the “hindu” parties from doing this? Have they given up already on the “dalits” seeing them as buddhists? If that is the case, then India is not a hindu majority country, in any case, and the hindutva-vadis should just shut up with their propaganda.
Cheers
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Start a one-point program on this issue – what stops the “hindu†parties from doing this? Have they given up already on the “dalits†seeing them as buddhists?
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Patriot, hasn’t BJP had two “low caste” leaders – B. Laxman and the one in Gujarat you love to hate?
BTW, what percentage of hatred that you display towards Modi, do you display towards other Chief Ministers and other political leaders who are similarly culpable for not preventing – or worse, participating in – communal riots in their states, or in Delhi in 1984? Or is it fashionable of classical liberals to simply dance to the tunes played by the media which has become deranged in its focus on Gujarat? Where’s the yardstick to measure and report on other similar incidents, and similar outrage over those incidents?
@ Kaffir –
“what percentage of hatred that you display towards Modi, do you display towards other Chief Ministers and other political leaders who are similarly culpable for not preventing – or worse, participating in – communal riots in their states, or in Delhi in 1984?”
Do not prejudge and do not bring your lenses to the show.
I am equally critical of the other CMs including many past Congress CMs of UP, who had perfected the art of using carrot (sops) and stick (riots) in controlling the muslim “vote bank”. 1984 remains one of the big black marks of modern Indian history.
And, just because I was commenting on Modi (who brought him in to the dialogue) is no reason to assume that I am not equally if not more critical of other such “state-abetted” (looked away, at the last, and maybe more) crimes.
And, Kaffir, your response is typical of a BJP apologist – criticise Modi and up pops 1984 – why assume that is being forgiven – new cases have recently been registered against Sajjan Kumar (also directed by the courts, as seems to be the singular practice in India, where the executive abdicates) and Tyler had to scratch given the howl of protest against him (still, that is small potatoes).
And, the BJP has a couple of “low caste” leaders – yeah, so what? That is like the token black, or the token woman rep, right?
Where is the mainstream, main cause agenda? That is what I am demanding.
Thanks
@ Kaffir –
“Or is it fashionable of classical liberals to simply dance to the tunes played by the media which has become deranged in its focus on Gujarat? Where’s the yardstick to measure and report on other similar incidents, and similar outrage over those incidents?”
This is for you and the media to decide – And, with TimesNow and HT, you have equally shrill voice pieces on the “right wing” side.
I, personally, hold both 1984 and 2002 to be equally reprehensible (not to forget Mumbai 1991) – a complete failure of *primary* state functions, and potential state complicity in the crime.
And, I see no reason why justice should not be done – in all such cases, in an impartial manner. Irrespective of who it hurts.
Guys, please, lets not start a political discussion again.
Shantanu, I am not here to accuse you. If I sounded like that, then I apologize.
There is one reason why we are discussing this matter. That is because we care. We care about the people who are discriminated. We care about leaving a significant section of the society behind us when we march into the new century. So lets focus back again, and see if we can maintain a positive tone.
1. Shantanu, in my opinion Mumbai trains is a bad example. It gives you a false sense of comfort that things are fine and dandy. They are not. All our experiences are different. I know that personal anecdotal experiences don’t count as scientific evidence. But in my personal experience, I have seen:
– Discrimination in temples when it comes to having lunch or sharing prasad.
– Feeling of superiority regarding one’s lifestyle depending on caste.
– Too much infighting withing castes.
– Resistance to people from other castes or religion moving into the neighborhood.
Yes, these are the same people who would travel together in a train. Thats no biggie. The real game is played out elsewhere.
I have seen young, educated, elite friends of mine justifying the above. It breaks my heart.
I don’t think people here understand what discrimination means. It makes no sense whatsoever if we form our opinions by asking a bunch of people from well to do upper castes or even well do to sc/st/obcs. If you want an honest answer, ask people who have been discriminated. Hold your judgments back for a minute, and then just listen. Just listen to somebody who has been discriminated against. Then you will see what discrimination means.
My biggest disappointment comes from religious leaders. For some reason, they do not come out in public to set an example of how to stop the discrimination. These are the people who can have the maximum impact.
– Why don’t religious leaders to openly invite dalits inside your temple (inner core) during maha pooja or whatever?
– Why don’t the GURUs publicly sit together with a person of lower caste and have lunch or dinner after a religious ceremony?
– Why don’t religious leaders belonging to different communities (Ex: brahmins, lingayats, gowdas etc in Karnataka) UNANIMOUSLY come out and PROMOTE inter-caste marriages? Preside over such ceremonies and promote them.
– Can the numerous religious channels openly decry discrimination? Can leaders from different SECTS publicly mix together for religious celebrations and lead by example?
– Why don’t religious gurus come out in public and promote intercaste marriages? Why?
NGOs can only do so much. The real power is with the religious leaders. I have not seen an initiative taken by a religious guru to consciously encourage inter caste mixing. Of course, they wouldn’t (I hope they don’t also) express opinions about different castes, but I don’t know what is it going to take to make these leaders start actively promoting inter-caste mingling in celebrations, festivities, marriages, etc. I am still waiting for that day.
And no, I don’t know of anybody who can make a blog post. Here is one possibility to explore (no, I am not endorsing him):
href=”http://www.drnarendrajadhav.info/new_version/default.htm
I heard him speak once with Michael Krasny on KQED Forum a few years back (in 2005).
http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R510200900
At that time I didn’t pay attention and even I became very angry at some of the things he said. I was a happy-go-lucky upper caste boy. Honestly, I was not ready to hear what he said. Now I realize the seriousness of the issue.
I only wish other higher caste people who have never experienced discrimination realize what they are not seeing. It is not easy for an upper caste person to feel what discrimination is like.
Again Shantanu, I will reiterate. I am not interested in winning the debate. I am not here to accuse anybody or hurl abuses. I may have used too much bold fonts, kindly remove those 🙂 All I want to hear is solutions. I did mention some of my thoughts I had in my earlier comment.
How often do you meet a person from the lower caste come out and say that discrimination is not that bad in India? But it is very easy to find a person from upper caste to go out looking for historical reasons for discrimination and bother about varna/jaati/caste etc. My point is we form our opinions based on what people from upper castes say. Wrong sample. Ask some one who has been discriminated. What is the consequence of forming our opinion based on wrong sample: You don’t realize the seriousness of the problem. You are less concerned about the problem or you focus your energy on other issue which you see as more important. You are still a good natured, well intentioned, thoughtful, educated human being. It is just that you are not exposed to the real story. In my opinion, most of us are in this boat. And guess what is going to happen then? We will keep treating symptoms. We significantly under-estimate the effort, energy, attention required to change hearts and minds of the people.
Real problem is in the hearts, minds and attitudes of the people. I realized that when a friend of mine got ostracized from the family for marrying a well educated well to do person from another caste (not in lower caste). I am sure these people have no problem travelling together in a Mumbai train. But when it comes to social and family mixing, the true colors begin to show up.
Religious leaders from different communities and castes can do wonders to change hearts and minds. They have only disappointed me so far.
Patriot, thanks for the support. 🙂
Patriot,
Start a one-point program on this issue – what stops the “hindu†parties from doing this?
It is simple: they don’t face caste based discrimination. They are just humans like the rest of us. They just don’t see the scale of the problem because majority of them have no idea what discrimination is like. Their perceptions based on their interaction with their peers and their social circles tell them that things are not that bad. Its not to accuse them of intentional ignorance. They are not in touch with reality. Their “reality” is different. Naturally, their priorities are different.
We need to rise beyond this if we are serious.
Bigotry and the caste system is different. The caste system is a philosophical thought process. It has got converted to bigotry. Bigotry needs to be kicked out. To kick out this bigotry, we need good thinkers like Swami Dayanand, Swami Vivekananda and men of action like BR Ambedkar, Narendra Modi. Dr Ambedkar is revered by the persons who suffered bigotry. Where the masses fail to derive the right inspiration is that they can also fight their way for good governance like Dr Ambedkar did.
@ KK –
“It is simple: they don’t face caste based discrimination. ”
I understand that – but, they are still politicians. Here is a point of action that can help them to galvanise the entire hindu polity, in a positive manner, and one with the power to get them an absolute majority in Parliament.
So, why do they not see this?
Are they so wrapped in their own (caste) identity that they can not see the real discrimination that goes on in rural and even semi-urban India? Why are they only so wrapped up with Mandal and reservations? How come the underlying injustice escapes them?
I have always found the above to be inexplicable.
cheers
@ Patriot: The reality is far more complex…In many regions and communities, the “obvious” upper-castes are actually numerically weak, politically insignificant and devoid of any real influence. Their “place” has been taken by a large variety of new caste and sub-caste formations including what are generically referred to as “Other Backward Castes”.
Thus violence and discrimination against the lower castes may not only come from the so-called “upper castes” but also OBCs, non-Hindus and in rare cases, from castes lower in the hierarchy than themselves…
Politicians have made an effort in this direction – to wield a pan-social identity (most recently Mayawati) but caste identities are so deep-rooted that to get over the initial barrier of distrust and hostility proves to be insurmountable for most…
On top of that, one wonders how many of our current leaders actually practice what they preach (as in “caste” being irrelevant to them).
All in all, a gloomy scenario, no doubt.
@Patriot. Arjuna’s refusal to fight with Karna is not an example of caste based discrimination.
It is merely an example of a code of ethics Arjuna followed–not engaging non-kshatriyas in battle.
He had no problem fighting with Karna when Karna became King of Anga and became a kshatriya in battle.
Likewise, Arjuna normally would not kill a brahmin, but he has no problem doing so to Drona, who though born a brahmin, becomes kshatriya through his vocation and temperament.
Similarly, Bhisma too, had a code of ethics about who to engage in battle; thus he refuses to fight with Shikandin who was born a woman, even though he is now a man.
An attempt to ensure temple entry for Dalits, led by the district Revenue Divisional Officer, was blocked by a violent mob at Chettipulam on Wednesday, leading to firing of buckshots in the air and lathi-charge by police.
Dalits’ bid to enter temple triggers violent protest
This is a sad example of our deep-rooted caste bigotry. Such news will never make it to headlines in “hindu” blogs. Let the bashing of MSM begin. May be MSM is wrong. May be. But even if there is a little bit of truth in this matter, then it is of grave concern (just my opinion).
Shantanu, let me point out again that no body so far responded with positive suggestions (patriot did add more useful points to my initial suggestions) to reduce the caste based discrimination in our society. May I suggest a highly unscientific poll of caste of readership on your blog? (Kindly ignore if you think it is a ridiculous idea)
If you don’t want the media, politicians or anyone else to EXPLOIT the caste angle, then work towards making it go away. Take the issue away. My bleak assessment says that even 100 years (3-4 generations) is not good sufficient if we do not consider this matter seriously. People who have the capacity to make the maximum impact are religious GURUS from different castes and communities. We have to make them realize that.
Patriot,
I have always found the above to be inexplicable.
This has bothered me too. May be, just may be, they fear loosing their core voters – upper castes.
In my opinion, real solution can come from a apolitical source. Thats why I rally for GURUs to make an effort in this matter. Just see the potential here:
List of Gurus
If there is any reader here who admires or follows any of the above GURU, make a plea to these god-men. They can explicitly condemn caste system, actively promote inter community mixing and TRY to keep it as much apolitical as possible. If only these religious channels actively promote equality among castes, if only …masses will follow.
Again, sorry for exploiting the forums on your blog to promote my agenda. But I wonder if I am the only one concerned here. So much for Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam.
@ KK: A hurried response…
I picked up the news you cited y’day along with a comment from someone that the protestors blocking the entry were actually OBCs and not “upper castes”.
Just underlines the point I made in #42 (not that being OBCs, their act can be condoned…)
And sorry, I missed the suggestions you made earlier…They are all good and practical…But eradicating this evil from the roots is going to take a massive social movement and many many years, if not decades…PLUS some pretty bold, audacious moves.
One of such moves (which I have in mind for the last several years) is to build a temple where ALL the priests are Dalits/Shudras/lower castes and ALL the cleaning staff is drawn from the “upper castes” – Such a highly visible act can perhaps go some way in a] assuaging the deep feelings of hurt and resentment and b] become a very public affirmation of one’s intent…
Not sure how “practical” it is though but this is one of my pet “dream projects”…
Separately, the attitudes MUST change…one of the things that I request all my friends and family to do is to openly praise and talk to the people who are maintaining the premises in holy/sacred places and temples.
They are doing a hugely important job – which is rarely acknowledged…Again, one person doing such things probably does not make any difference but if enough do, perhaps attitudes will begin to change..
I do not think legislation is the answer to this..
And the reason why I do not devote more space to this than what it deserves is mainly because I believe – at the heart of it – this is a challenge for our political and social leadership.
They have failed in this and unless we are serious about replacing them, all this commenting and discussion on blogs will not do much.
So KK if you are really serious about this issue, consider getting into politics – or social reform. Nothing else will really make a difference (in my humble opinion)
I will have a look at the list of “Gurus”. Thanks for that.
More on the Dalit’s being denied entry into temple news:
The event was part of a series of such temple entry programmes in protest against caste discrimination that prevents Dalits from entering temples in several parts of Tamil Nadu, the state that saw the Dravidian movement in the ‘60s that opposed caste suppression, but has done little to end discrimination.
The Vanniyars of Chettipulam near Vedaranyam — designated among the most backward communities — had initially agreed to permit the Dalits into the Arulmigu Kamatchiamman Sametha Ekambareswarat Temple during peace talks organized by the administration days ago. But, on Wednesday morning, they gathered in large numbers in front of the temple and went berserk at the sight of police and revenue officials escorting the Dalits.
Shantanu,
Thanks for taking time to reply.
I do not think legislation is the answer to this..
I partly agree.
But eradicating this evil from the roots is going to take a massive social movement and many many years, if not decades…PLUS some pretty bold, audacious moves.
You are right. But who is in the commanding position to drive this social movement? They have immense convincing power over the masses. They enjoy unquestioned unshakable trust of the masses for the most part. Its time we harness the power of that control! 🙂 All we need is that these people actively promote inter-caste engagements in social environments.
And the reason why I do not devote more space to this than what it deserves is mainly because I believe – at the heart of it – this is a challenge for our political and social leadership. They have failed in this and unless we are serious about replacing them, all this commenting and discussion on blogs will not do much.
I don’t agree completely. With a powerful blog you have the potential to POSITIVELY influence your readers. If you highlight the problem and soliciting positive suggestions, it can lead to spawning new ideas. Our political and social leadership has failed us. Sure. But you have the POWER to influence people. I commend you for your time/energy management skills in maintaining an active blog. Even if you influence ONE person to speak-up to elders/relatives/friends or even start thinking about this issue, then you have done something.
Whenever I talk to my friends (most of them are from upper caste), when the issue of caste comes into the discussion:
a. They are eager to find historical reasons to glorify how wonderful the past system was.
b. DO NOT acknowledge that discrimination still happens at social level.
c. They blame politicians for exploiting castes.
d. They discuss about reservations and mandal and christian conversions.
What rubs me: They do not acknowledge how a LARGE section of the society STILL suffers discrimination.
They have never thought seriously about this issue at all!
This is why I am making the case for: Providing more coverage for this issue – how horrible caste based discrimination is.
You have the potential to influence minds so that we can identify solutions. Let more people think about it from all angles (why only from the angle of reservation or exploitation by politicians!).
So KK if you are really serious about this issue, consider getting into politics – or social reform. Nothing else will really make a difference (in my humble opinion)
Thanks for the suggestion. I will keep those in mind for future! I hope that people offer practical solutions on how each of us can do our small part to change hearts and minds of people around us.
@KK
As per me there is no upper or lower caste but just to go through the comments as it has been used in the discussion I am using such words in my comments.
So for how long so called upper caste has to cheer up or buck up those who feels inferior by their own habits, attitude and the way they see the life?. Its like, teaching 20 years old adult walking.
There are many so called sc/ bc or what ever one say, well advance and doing great jobs. How? They understand the meaning of “strive for the best”, and do best for the community and society at large. But now ask them would they go back or marry their children in the same community of so called lower caste? Big Nope! is their answer. Why? They know the attitude and way of life their community possesses, as they were the part of it once. They have changed but they cant dare to change their caste or community. Why? Than why ask upper caste to change that which their own member cannot do it?.
The link of the video which you have posted. Have you ever interacted with them? They use five foul words in five minutes of talk if they are outside the video.
Not like that none of them have changed. Many have uplifted themselves through “Swadhyaya Parivar” of PanduRang Shastri. And inspite of they belong to so ans so caste they feel they are upper caste. As they have changed their setting of mind, habits and most Important their attitude. Many have gave up drinks, smoking and adopted spiritual or simple but healthy lifestyle. As their attitudes and habits were the biggest hindrance in their struggle and achievements. Many are well posted in small offices of their town as postman or in a bank. I have seen this miracles in many backward villages. Many have talked to me about the change “swadhyaya Parivar” has made in their life.
The root of the caste system is something else but not the upper caste.
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And, the BJP has a couple of “low caste†leaders – yeah, so what? That is like the token black, or the token woman rep, right?
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Riiight. So if BJP has some “low caste” leaders, then it’s tokenism. If BJP supports a Muslim President, that’s again tokenism. But if they don’t, then they are Muslim-haters and don’t care for “low castes”. Cynicism much, Patriot?? Or is it that you want to have it both ways?
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Where is the mainstream, main cause agenda? That is what I am demanding.
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Put your demands to the BJP leadership where you live.
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“Or is it fashionable of classical liberals to simply dance to the tunes played by the media which has become deranged in its focus on Gujarat? Where’s the yardstick to measure and report on other similar incidents, and similar outrage over those incidents?â€
This is for you and the media to decide – And, with TimesNow and HT, you have equally shrill voice pieces on the “right wing†side.
I, personally, hold both 1984 and 2002 to be equally reprehensible (not to forget Mumbai 1991) – a complete failure of *primary* state functions, and potential state complicity in the crime.
And, I see no reason why justice should not be done – in all such cases, in an impartial manner. Irrespective of who it hurts.
=>
If you re-read my original comment (looks like you skimmed it), it wasn’t about denying justice. It was about the selective outrage in the media and from people like you. Those are two different issues.
Please point me to some of your comments on this blog or elsewhere where you display the same anger and passion against other CMs and PMs that you displayed against Modi in your comment. I will stand corrected.
It’s fascinating that we have universities and other buildings, roads etc. named after Indira Gandhi – someone who caused innumerable deaths in Punjab – of both Hindus and Sikhs – because of her petty politics. It’s amazing that the media and people still go ga-ga over Rajiv Gandhi who made that atrocious comment in the wake of 1984 riots and caused deaths of many Indians because of his decisions regarding Sri Lanka/LTTE – all that is normalised and slips away unquestioned, and is buttressed with their positive acts. But Narendra Modi? Oh, he needs to be hanged high!!
India, thanks for your honest thoughts.
The link of the video which you have posted. Have you ever interacted with them? They use five foul words in five minutes of talk if they are outside the video.
……
The root of the caste system is something else but not the upper caste.
Exhibit-A for the point I made earlier: Denial and blaming the victims for the problem. Lacking empathy.
Indian, just a minor glitch with your argument. You forgot that ‘Swadhyaya’ or anything like that has been out of reach for these populations for many many generations, yeah the people who are using foul mouth according to you.
Once again, I just HOPE people offer positive suggestions on how we can do our part individually to change hearts and minds.
I have nothing left to say. Seems pointless.
@kk
Everyone is working on their own way in real life to bring changes in everyone’s life. Its not a question of empathy or sympathy. We all have different kind of experiences dealing with them that what I was sharing.
Please calrify. Its important to bring empathy and sympathy in discussion? and cumpulsary to see them as victim? Cant we go further and find what’s that locking them in their situation rather than just blaming other for their circumstances?. And work in that direction first and foremost and bring change in their daily life same as swadhyaya and many are working. Everything cannot be solved by displaying the epitome of empathy.Right!
—Indian, just a minor glitch with your argument. You forgot that ‘Swadhyaya’ or anything like that has been out of reach for these populations for many many generations, yeah the people who are using foul mouth according to you—-.
Yeah, If you want to know the truth still many are not ready to change. I have burnt my ears with their foul mouthing words. Enough I am not taking more. You give them liquor and free money you will be respected as a God. And I dont want to be their God. This is ths situation in some part of my province I have no idea of other places.
Last year in Sa Re Ga Ma contest one lady from vidarbh won the contest. She was from poor family and she herself denounced her family on stage. What do you say lack of empathy?
Its ok if reality seems to you as pointless but when one work on the ground this is what it is.
Indian, I can only request you to read all my comments before mixing topics with foul mouths and liquor. I give up.
@ kk- 50,
>>>“I have nothing left to say. Seems pointless.”
A conclusion that would be justified by a look at history.
As per our eminent historians of JNU and NCERT, Buddha and Mahavira were pioneers of caste eradication endeavour. Their followers included such ‘legendary’ emperors as Chandra Gupta Maurya and Ashoka. With the last two holding more than the real estate of the subcontinent during their reigns, and sponsoring their respective antidote to casteism, even proselytizing as far away as persia and cambodia, one could reasonably conclude that all ‘dalits’ of that time embraced buddhism and jainism.
It is said that Thomas, came to India sometime in the first century and proselytized. If there were any ‘dalits’ yet not converted to buddhism and jainism, it is reasonable to conclude that they would have embraced the religion of love.
As per our ’eminent historians’, Adi Sankaracharya is said to have reinstated hindusim back in india. He is also said to have accepted a Chandala as his guru, considering him to be the incarnation of Shiva. So it would be reasonable to conclude that of those buddhists/jains who were converetd back, if there were any Chandalas among them, which one assumes to be equivalent of a Dalit, they would have got treated respectfully.
Thereafter came the follower of religion of peace, Khilji, followerd by others like him, Ghazni, Ghori, Aibak, Babar, Akbar, Aurangazeb all good fellas who desperately tried, for a whole 1000 years selflessly and peacefully (our ’eminent historians’ assures), to get the kaffirs converted to ‘religion of peace’ . So it would be reasonable to conclude that all those ‘dalits’ who may have felt persecution at the hands of ‘high caste’ brahmins grabbed the opportunity, converted to the ‘religion of peace’, and claimed powerful status in administering the country.
As per prevalent notions the british took over directly from the great Mughals but continued the honourable mission of civilizing heathen pagan indians. They are credited with the sensible act of destroying the evil education system prevalent in india and started educating indians (though, the gandhian Shri Dharampal has a different opinion about that; he seems to think that indigenous education system was available to all strata of society! imagine. how impossible!).
Later such ‘educated’ indians such as the ‘brahmin’ Mangal Pandey and ‘Raja Ram Mohan Roy’ gratefully joined the british to fight other ‘orthodox high caste evil brahmins’ who refused to get educated(Pandey ‘the high caste brahmin’ joined the british as a common soldier! doubtless insipired by the british education to facilitate a class less society). (It is a different matter that Pandey later had a difference of opinion due to certain archaic beliefs he carried with him from his earlier days which ultimately ended in the helpless british having to execute him for the good of society).
Nevertheless it is reasonable to conclude that the british managed to civilize the crude indians and liberated the ‘oppressed dalits’ during their 250 years of solid reign (our dear PM was recently thankful to the british for these good acts, so that seals the issue).
After the british left, the illustrious indians brought up under the tutelage of the kind british continued the traditions established by them and continued to uplift the society using gandhian values till now.
So the video linked in the earlier comment is shocking! are there any ‘dalits’ left in india at all ?
All that 2500 years of efforts by Buddha and Mahavira, followed by emperors Chandra Gupta Maurya, Ashoka and their followers were to no avail ? The 2000 years of loving efforts by Thomas’s followers was useless ? The 1300 years of peaceful love from Khilji’s followers could not change the minds of ‘dalits’ ? The 250 years of civilizing mission by Macaulay, Max Mueller, Francis Xavier and Vasco da Gama went nowhere ? The 55 years of socialist, secular affirmative reservation-oriented efforts by our dear indians were not fruitful ?
How can that be ?
Why are there ‘dalits’ left in India still, after peace and love and education by the ruling class for Thousands of years ? Why didn’t they join the rulers and enjoy a share in power ?
“I have nothing left to say. Seems pointless.” seems apt.
Could it be that this ‘dalit’ is a recent creation ?
Could it be that the indians who consider as their holiest books, the Ramayana (written by an ex-jungle thief), the Vedas, the Mahabharata, the Gita (all complied by the son of an unwed fisherwoman), who follow the Shankaracharya (who considered a Chandala as guru), who respects even animals and nature, who prays ‘ Loka Samasta Sukhino Bhavantu‘, who says ‘Vasudaiva Kutumbakam’, who proclaims ‘Aham Brahmasmi’ transcending physical body, who worships Shiva in Ardhanareeswara form, who worships dark skinned Krishna, Shiva and Sri Rama, who consider as role models people who lived simple lives with spiritual aims, people who never propagated caste system, such as Ramana Maharshi, Dayananda Saraswati, Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Mata Amritanandamayi, could it be that caste system is not inherent to india or the so-called hinduism ? Is it possible that it is a very recent creation ? a creation of the british ?
Solution
Would a solution be to educate the people about ‘caste system’ and discrimination being an import, a creation of the british who transferred their fuedal system perspective and materialistic approach to india and exploited it to suit their interest ? Can a solution be found in spreading knowledge that indian way of life is spiritual rather than materialistic, experiential rather than dogmatic adherence to texts or rituals ? Is it a possible solution to inform the so-called ‘dalits’ to consider themselves as’ human beings’, to call themselves as indians, rather than what they titled that video ? Can the spread of knowledge about the so-called and much maligned ‘hinduism’ , about the universal spiritual principles of its philosophy that transcends personal identity help eradicate discrimination ? Can such moves help give a new direction to india and the world itself ? Can it give a new direction to humanity ?
Nay, impossible, our eminent historians assures us, caste is inherent to hinduism. So it must be. No way they can be wrong.
So the only way out is to discard this so-called ‘hinduism’.
Till you do that, continue to feel guilty about the ‘dalits’ (if you can have such feelings).
If that method doesn’t work out, then it needs to be investigated whether this land called india has this horrible ability to ‘produce dalits’, as evident from the fact that there are still such ‘oppressed’ people in india despite millenniums of continuous efforts by peaceful loving administrators to save them by conversion .
The solution then will be to dismember this horrible land for the betterment of human society. Dividing it into ‘Dalit Nation’, ‘Dravidistan’ and ‘Mughalistan’ may be a good starting point. Later other subdivisions can be done to suit later requirements.
It is heartening that enlightened ‘indians’ today are ceased of the complete picture and ‘feel deeply’ for the need to bring about such change.
Dhanyavaad
Incognito, let me congratulate you on your spectacular/amazing/spectacular/incisive/whatever reply as some may cheer on this forum. As I have mentioned earliser, let me focus on the present:
Can a solution be found in spreading knowledge that indian way of life is spiritual rather than materialistic, experiential rather than dogmatic adherence to texts or rituals ?
Yes.
Is it a possible solution to inform the so-called ‘dalits’ to consider themselves as’ human beings’, to call themselves as indians, rather than what they titled that video ?
Definitely yes.
Can the spread of knowledge about the so-called and much maligned ‘hinduism’ , about the universal spiritual principles of its philosophy that transcends personal identity help eradicate discrimination ?
Sure. Absolutely. Would love to see that happen.
Can such moves help give a new direction to india and the world itself ? Can it give a new direction to humanity ?
Sure. I really hope it does.
Now kindly suggest how we going to achieve it. Lets look forward, please. You don’t have to constantly look to your past to blame khiljis, our ’eminent’ historians, and whatever else we can pile. That will lead to epic fail.
Great posts by Incognito! Thought provoking.
Some organizations which are actively involved in promoting talent are Ramakrishna Mission, Arya Samaj, RSS. One can join them, create a team of similar thought process and work. Second, one can visit the organization, meet people who are doing this but lack the organizational skills, interact with them, help them to be more effective.
@ Kaffir –
“So if BJP has some “low caste†leaders, then it’s tokenism. If BJP supports a Muslim President, that’s again tokenism. But if they don’t, then they are Muslim-haters and don’t care for “low castes—
How about close to proportionate representation, given our population distribution? To encourage meritocracy (which is probably your next argument), let us say that 10 percentage point difference of correlation will be fine. We will allow the BJP to completely leave out the “other faiths” too.
And, BTW, this does not apply just to the BJP alone. But, since we we were talking of the “hindu agenda for change” and also the BJP and the Sangh Parivar being the “guardian of hindutva”.
“It was about the selective outrage in the media and from people like you. Those are two different issues.
Please point me to some of your comments on this blog or elsewhere where you display the same anger and passion against other CMs and PMs that you displayed against Modi in your comment. I will stand corrected.”
I can not speak for the MSM – I hardly, if ever, switch on the TV news. And, I read the Indian Express, which I find very balanced. And, I get the rest of my news from the web, diverse sources. So, do NOT tar me with the same brush.
As far as my outrage goes, please point me to any specific issues in this specific blog where I have ignored evil perpetrated against hindus, just because hindus were the victims. I will be waiting.
“It’s fascinating that we have universities and other buildings, roads etc. named after Indira Gandhi – someone who caused innumerable deaths in Punjab – of both Hindus and Sikhs – ……… But Narendra Modi? Oh, he needs to be hanged high!!”
I agree with you on the TV bias that exists – but, you should really take this up with media, rather than me or others here.
Also, Kaffir, I would ask you to ponder the following and their impact:
1. There was no 24×7 private news channels in 1984 – could the Gandhi family have survived that footage politically if there were private news channels?
2. Ditto for Assam, Punjab and Sri Lanka – you will notice that we do not seem to have these issues any longer, on the same scale in India – no rebellions burning up large tracts of India except Kashmir (where the media is strictly prohibited). Even in the case of the Maoists where recent TV coverage from Times has been brutal, you have the wimps now saying that we will mount a full-fledged operation, including helicopter gunships being allowed to fire back.
I think private 24×7 TV coverage has made India safer, made the possibility of the recurrence of 1984 and 1991 significantly more remote – unfortunately for Modi-lovers, he was the first guinea pig in this 24×7 reality – the Gujarat riots were the first such full scale brutality post the private channels. So, Modi’s name is mud. Tough for him, but an object lesson for all such potential Neros in the future – that you allow *primary* state functions to fail, you are history.
Please do try to understand this point.
3. The regional media has always been biased for and against their pet groups – the urdu newspapers of UP and AP will spout vitriol against the BJP, while the hindi, gujarati, marathi, telegu newspapers of UP, Gujarat, AP, Maharashtra return the favour. Similar for regional language TV channels
So, as far as c. 60% of India is concerned, it gets its news from its own biased source!
It is only the English speaking blogerati that keeps spouting venom about the MSM – wake up, dudes, the English TV news channels are not mainstream Indian media. It is only for the NRIs and some of the middle-class consumers in the cities!!! And, now you have your very own venom spouting, Fox-copier news channel – welcome to Times Now!!
So, what’s the issues?
Cheers
@KK
I think its waste of time writing here. Its good we keep working in manner we understand the issue. Beginning only I said I am not approaching solution.
My points were only that one of the reason among many for caste system existing because of vices and virtues people possesses. By saying foul mouth: If they don’t take control over it, its become difficult to be approached by many.
Before Swadhyaya, Gandhiji, Apteji, Dayanand, Narsinh Mehta S. vivekanand. All worked for them on this ground and millions are working and they had positive solution. So lets keep working.
Incognito
Well said! and nice points to think about.
54->>> “Now kindly suggest how we going to achieve it.”
A: 1. “educate the people about ‘caste system’ and discrimination being an import, a creation of the british who transferred their fuedal system perspective and materialistic approach to india and exploited it to suit their interest”
1. Through blogs, such as these.
2. Write articles in newspapers/magazines.
3. Appear on Television shows, radio.
4. Write books.
5. Talk to your friends, family members, relatives, neighbours, colleagues, community elders, society leaders, the ‘oppressed’, the ‘oppressors’ (if and when you find any)
6. Learn more on so-called ‘history’, which is more like ‘his story’ (of the one who wrote it) Investigate personally and verify. Think independently.Question. Search. Put forward new perspectives and knowledge in front of society.
2. “spreading knowledge that indian way of life is spiritual rather than materialistic, experiential rather than dogmatic adherence to texts or rituals ”
1. Understand whether the implication of the above statement is true or not. Find out if indian way of life is really spiritual.
2. Understand what is spirituality. what is living spiritually.
3. Experience it.
4. If convinced, spread the insights.
5. Inform on possible alternate purposes to life as exemplified by many indians in the past and a few indians now.
6. Transform prevalent perspectives in society by giving alternatives to ‘self gratification’ as way of life.
3. “inform the so-called ‘dalits’ to consider themselves as’ human beings’, to call themselves as indians, rather than what they titled that video ”
1. Help ‘dalits’ in your neighbourhood treat themselves with respect. Let them know that they are as endowed with abilities as any.
2. Help them learn the indian past which has had innumerable people from humble backgrounds leading enlightened lives.
3. Educate them to educate themselves, to seek and learn. Give them your books, point them to sources of information.
4. Help them consider themself to be more than mere materialistic creatures, but as spiritual potentialities.
5. Help them understand indian culture and to actively involve themselves in correcting the prevalent incorrect discourse in society.
6. Help them to think independently, rather than following ‘someone’. To find their own way in life, to treat themselves as capable to do so. To intutively understand Dharma, to uphold it.
Uphold Dharma. Raise voice if and when unjust discrimination is witnessed.
Goals are clear. Way to achieve them is upto each individual commensurate with his current abilities, knowledge, wisdom and will.
Transposing demand for instant results, on the lines of instant coffee and instant make-overs, to personal, let alone societial transformations, is juvenile.
Live Karma. Dharmically.
Results follow.
>>>“You don’t have to constantly look to your past to blame khiljis, our ‘eminent’ historians, and whatever else we can pile.”
Such misconception!
Whereas the peaceful, loving activities of khilji and his followers upto the exemplary aurangazeb, as propagated by the ‘undisputably sincere eminent historians’ (some of them Kluge-prize winners!), were wholesomely appreciated.
Besides, it is Incorrect to withhold credit where due.
Shutting off mind from truth is not the way to uphold Dharma.
Dhanyavaad
Incognito, thanks for posting your thoughts.
A: 1. “educate the people about ‘caste system’ and discrimination being an import, a creation of the british who transferred their fuedal system perspective and materialistic approach to india and exploited it to suit their interestâ€
I disagree. Kindly read the history of Basaveshwara of Karnataka and Ligayats in karnataka who lived in the 12th century much before British arrived in India.
Sample source: Veerashaiva society of North America. http://www.vsna-tx.org/2009/Basaveshwara_Vachana_Sheela_Mantapa.pdf
I quote:
The previous Hindu system was based on social evils such as: Recognition of low and high based caste;
occupation based concepts of superiority and inferiority based on occupation and determination of status
on the basis of wealth. Basavanna declared that such practices had no place in the community of the
followers of his principles. It was considered that all were children of God and hence all human being were created equal in the eyes of the Lord.
Go ahead and dispute that history of Basaveshvara as told by Lingayats in Karnataka is a made up version. I shall not respond to your claims that British made up the whole story of caste system. This subject has been beaten to death on this forum and I will ignore this discussion.
I like the spirit of your reply. I would much rather like our discussion to take a positive direction. Because this is the fact we MUST not forget: Whether British made it up (as per your fantastic claim) or such bigotry existed British arrived, its presence in our society is a clear and present danger. So it is in our best interest to work towards solutions.
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It is only the English speaking blogerati that keeps spouting venom about the MSM – wake up, dudes, the English TV news channels are not mainstream Indian media. It is only for the NRIs and some of the middle-class consumers in the cities!!! And, now you have your very own venom spouting, Fox-copier news channel – welcome to Times Now!!
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The same reason/logic (NRI, middle-class consumers, English language) you mention above, applies to those who keep spewing venom against Narendra Modi, even though the people in Gujarat have voted him back to power – and with a handsome margin – more than once in state elections. Even though Teesta and Arundhati have been shown to have lied regarding some of their charges and write-ups.
@ Kaffir –
“The same reason/logic (NRI, middle-class consumers, English language) you mention above, applies to those who keep spewing venom against Narendra Modi, even though the people in Gujarat have voted him back to power – and with a handsome margin – more than once in state elections”
Two parts to your statement –
1. Based on my interactions with current middle class folks (regional language and many english speaking ones) and NRIs – these guys are huge fans of Modi. You are mistaking them for a much smaller demographic of people – the JNU types, the Kolkata communist types and the media types spawned by the previous types.
2. Yes, the people of Gujarat did vote Modi back to power, and twice at that. Shows you the power of brute majorities. And, how democracies can become mobocracies. Think about it, what else the brute majority can do.
In any case, Modi is innocent of collusion in the riots, unless proven guilty in Indian courts.
But, his government FAILED in the state’s primary duty of maintaining law and order. Why are you giving him a pass on this most basic of duties? I am questioning his record as an able administrator here, which is his alleged claim to fame.
Also, to the above comment, I should add that Modi won his state twice, but the BJP lost the country twice. What price his wins in his state?
@patriot
No poblem with mobocracy if common man is happier in mobcracy than democracy in Gujarat. What kind of democracy are you talking about? People’s verdict is the final. Gujarat was always given back seat till now. All are happy in Gujarat, and that mob also includes Muslims, Sikhs, N. Indians, jains, S. Indians and many more. Lets focus on the states where drinking water and elecricity is still a dream. Law and order must be great but person dies everyday. They dont even need riots to kill their dreams are already crushed by the care taker of law and order.
@ Indian –
I do think that you miss the additional comment that I made.
All are happy in Gujarat, and yet the BJP’s vote share keeps declining ….. I wonder about this dichotomy …. they have even begun to lose the panchayat elections. I wonder why?
And, I wonder what you would say about Bengal, where the communists have regined supreme for the past 30 years, without any development or progress …. that is where I was going with my mobocracy argument (to start with).
And, let us not confuse issues by bringing in other areas (drinking water, etc) – the government’s primary responsibilities are defence, law and order and justice. If it fails in any of these, it is not fit to govern. That is my fundamental starting point – that is why I am willing to give up some of my individual rights and allow the government to tax me. That is *my* construct of governance and the classical liberal one. You may choose another, a socialistic one, if you prefer.
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Why are you giving him a pass on this most basic of duties?
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Patriot, am I? Or are you imagining things? Let’s bring the discussion back to the point I raised – the constant + consistent knee-jerk reaction and drumbeat in the media and by some people to hang Modi, while doing nothing about other culprits – i.e. selective outrage.
BTW, people are still waiting for justice from the Meerut/Hashimpura riots that happened in 1987. Where’s the 24-hour media talking about that issue? In this world of 24 hour news, there’s plenty of time to do a report on it, but the media won’t – because that would entail taking the “secular” Congress government to task.
Courtesy Nishka please read this article: A Pluralist’s encounter with a Missionary by Kalavai Venkat dt. July 2006 from The Hindu Renaissance.
Some thought-provoking excerpts below:
Once, a Southern Baptist missionary was my co-passenger in a flight. Like every missionary out to seek a convert, he was pleasant. After learning that I am a Hindu he asked, “Is the caste system going away in India?†I quipped “Why should it go away?†He was surprised by my response and remarked, “You are the first Hindu who responded this way. Most Hindus agree that caste must go away and say that it is slowly going away.â€
I decided to turn the tables on him. I asked him, “What language do the African Americans speak?†He replied, “English.†I asked, “What did their ancestors speak 500 years ago?†He began to contemplate. I thought that I might have to wait for eternity like the Christians have waited for the second coming of their messiah before the missionary would answer, so I prompted him, “Swahili? Hausa?†He agreed, “Yes.†I asked, “Do the African Americans worship the animist deities of their ancestors? Do they wed and bury per their ancestral customs?†The missionary replied, “No.â€
I said that one could replace African Americans with any immigrant group: The Dutch, the Germans, the French or the Latinos. I added, “What you proudly advertise as the melting pot actually imposed the language, culture, religion and customs of the dominant ethnic group on all others. On the other hand, visit even a small village in India with just 300 families. The chances are that this population would be made up of 10 different castes and each of them retains its distinct religious, wedding, funerary, culinary and dialectic features. This is because, as a truly pluralistic society, the Hindu India allowed each ethnic group, regardless of how numerically small it was, to retain its identity.â€
“So,†I added, “Caste is a result of this spirit of freedom and pluralism. It is something to be proud of. On the other hand, the so-called melting pot is actually a result of cultural, and often physical, extermination of diverse identities by one intolerant and powerful group.â€
I continued to pontificate: “Like every other man made institution, caste too has been misused. Then, so has been every other man made institution like democracy or secularism. It was a democratically elected Hitler who exterminated 6 million Jews, Gypsies and mentally retarded patients. It was a democratically elected Jefferson who fixed the worth of every African American child at $ 22.50 and proposed to forcibly snatch them away from their parents and ship them back to Africa after ensuring that the adult African American population does not procreate any further. It was a democratically elected Roosevelt who declared that the extermination at the hands of the Whites was the best thing that happened to the Native Americans. Stalin and Mao were secular but they mercilessly sent millions to death camps.â€
…I cited the words of Nathan Katz and pointed out how Hindu pluralism, of which caste is an integral part, actually preserved minority customs. Katz, while discussing how the Jewish people flourished for centuries amidst the Hindus, writes:
“A crucial distinction between India and the rest of the Diaspora, however, is that in India acculturation is not paid for in the currency of assimilation. By acculturation I mean fitting comfortably into a society while retaining one’s own identity, whereas by assimilation I mean that the loss of that identity is a perceived condition for acceptance. The study of Indian Jewish communities demonstrates that in Indian culture an immigrant group gains status precisely by maintaining its own identity. Such is the experience not only of India’s Jews, but also of local Christians, Zoroastrians, and recently, Tibetan Buddhists. This striking feature of Indian civilization is reflected by each of these immigrant groups.
…Are the Hindus going to repeat the missionary propaganda and deny the strengths of their own civilization or are they going to understand the institution of caste dispassionately? The missionary and the imperialist know that the institution of caste must be obliterated if the Hindu society were to be weakened and converted. A Hindu should critically analyze his traditions instead of uncritically absorbing propaganda.
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2. Yes, the people of Gujarat did vote Modi back to power, and twice at that. Shows you the power of brute majorities. And, how democracies can become mobocracies.
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Just like the people voted back to power the incompetent and corrupt UPA, in spite of numerous terrorist attacks and loss of innocent lives.
And your point is?
(Yes, I know that democracy is not a perfect system, but that’s neither here nor there.)
If people of Gujarat are not happy with Modi, then they are best suited to show him the door – let non-Gujaratis keep on jerking their knees and foaming at their mouths regarding real or perceived errors by Narendra Modi.
And if Modi is guilty, then let the courts decide. Though, the numerous precedents set by the Congress Party on how to escape culpability from communal riots will likely ensure that nothing happens to Modi even if he is guilty (different from ‘found guilty by the court’).
@ Kaffir –
“And your point is?
(Yes, I know that democracy is not a perfect system, but that’s neither here nor there.)”
You pointed to the Gujarat wins as a vindication of Modi, and I pointed to the flaws of democracy, which I find you agree to, as well.
So, d’accord!
cheers
@ Kaffir –
“Let’s bring the discussion back to the point I raised – the constant + consistent knee-jerk reaction and drumbeat in the media and by some people to hang Modi, while doing nothing about other culprits – i.e. selective outrage.”
Take it up with those who generate your outrage at this selective outrage that you quote. Why bring it up with me? I am not in *that* boat.
“BTW, people are still waiting for justice from the Meerut/Hashimpura riots that happened in 1987. Where’s the 24-hour media talking about that issue?”
Have you tried writing to Times Now – I am sure they will be happy taking up this cause.
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You pointed to the Gujarat wins as a vindication of Modi..
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Not as vindication of Modi, but that the people in Gujarat are more in tune with what’s happening there, as opposed to others/outsiders who are influenced by the outrage against Modi fueled by NRIs and English-language media, and a few “activists” like Arundhati Roy and Teesta Setalvad who have been shown to lie and exaggerate regarding this issue.
I personally have no knowledge of Modi’s guilt or innocence, and if he is found guilty, then he should be accordingly punished. But yeah, I’m not part of that feral mob that’s out to get Modi.
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All are happy in Gujarat, and yet the BJP’s vote share keeps declining ….. I wonder about this dichotomy …. they have even begun to lose the panchayat elections. I wonder why?
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..I pointed to the flaws of democracy..
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😀
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“BTW, people are still waiting for justice from the Meerut/Hashimpura riots that happened in 1987. Where’s the 24-hour media talking about that issue?â€
Have you tried writing to Times Now – I am sure they will be happy taking up this cause.
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I mentioned that in response to your comment about 24×7 media and how you stated that Modi was the guinea pig. With 24×7 TV, shouldn’t the reporters have more time and more resources to pursue justice for past events involving Congress Party leaders? – that was my point.
BTW, how is Modi’s name mud – and in which circles exactly (ELM?, NRI?) – when he has been re-elected by people of Gujarat?
@ kaffir –
“With 24×7 TV, shouldn’t the reporters have more time and more resources to pursue justice for past events involving Congress Party leaders? – that was my point.”
Not really ….. the time of introspective TV has gone, if it ever was there. It is all about breaking news – outside of BBC and the History channel, I rarely find *any* TV channel (in India or outside) concentrating on anything but the most immediate instant.
“how is Modi’s name mud – and in which circles exactly”
I guess I answer that question by asking as to why the BJP has lost two national level elections, especially the one in 2004, which followed 5 years of intense development? And, then the one in 2009, which followed 5 years of Congress incompetence and insecurity?
So, people of Gujarat have elected him, but have the people of India rejected him, and by implication, the BJP?
Excerpts from Bigotry alive for Christian Dalits by Sunil Raman
…in one corner of southern India, their (low-caste Hindus) hopes for equality remain unfulfilled hundreds of years on. Called “pariahs”, hundreds of Dalit Christians continue to face discrimination – not from Hindus but fellow Christians.
More than 200km (124 miles) from Chennai, the capital of the southern state of Tamil Nadu, is the village of Eraiyur.
Home to about 3,000 Dalit Christians, mostly farm labourers and migrant workers, the area witnessed violence last year when Dalits demanded equal treatment.
The village is dominated by Vanniyar Christians numbering 15,000, who own most of the land and businesses.
They imposed restrictions on Dalits even though they had also converted to Christianity.
..The dominant Vanniyars created rules which restricted the movement of the Dalits.
…When they visited the parish church they were not allowed to walk on the main street leading to the building. Instead they had to use a side street that led to the church gate.
When Dalits died they were not allowed to be buried in the cemetery. Their burial ground is beyond the village and can only be accessed through a broken path.
In addition, the funeral cart parked inside the church building can be used only by Vanniyars.
“We were told not to touch any upper caste person, not to get too close to them, not to talk to them,” says Mrs Peraiyamaka, 60, a farm labourer who has been visiting the parish church since childhood.
…”My family may get some minimum help or guidance from Christianity. That’s all. There is no big change after we came to Christianity,” says Mr Mathew.
…Mr Arukadas, a retired government teacher lives next to the parish church and he shared his unhappiness with the Dalit Christians.
Asked about using a common funeral van and a graveyard where all Christians irrespective of their past Hindu caste identity can be buried, he retorted: “It will take a long time for a common graveyard.”
@ Shantanu –
Yes, it is quite interesting the above – how caste manages to even triumph over conversions! You could probably ask HBR to publish a case study on it!
I have seen this in Goa, as well, where the conversions happened c. 100-200 years ago – paraphrasing a conversation that I had with a local –
Local – ….. but I am a Brahmin
Me – how can you be a brahmin, your family converted to christianity, three generations ago or mor
L – so what?
M – so christianity does not have castes
L – i was a brahmin, before I became a christian – so, why should I abandon my roots?
M – wow – good logic!
We are firm believers in our roots, when it suits us, I guess!
60- >>>” Kindly read the history of Basaveshwara of Karnataka …..I shall not respond to your claims that British made up the whole story of caste system. ….. I will ignore this discussion.”
You insist on ignoring numerous evidence to the contrary to insist that caste system was integral to indian society. For this you cite an article on internet.
As to the article itself, it says this about Basaveshvara’s requirements of ‘welfare state’ –
“– There should not be any desires & temptations.
– The personal desires should be sacrificed for the welfare of all.
– One should be attached to the ideals without being attracted by the
desires.
– One should lead a holy life both internally and externally.
– The one who wants to build a welfare state should become selfless
and surrender to the society.
– It is difficult to build a welfare state if one has self-pride, which is
also dangerous to the society.”
and then – “All these are the qualities of socialism“.
Not- “all these are the values inherent to indian society“. “That these are the exact import of bhagavad gita. The main message of ramayana“. “That these are the principles that guided numerous khsatriyas of india throughout millenniums in administering society upholding dharma.”
No.
Only that “All these are the qualities of socialism“. And ‘welfare state“.
That is the pity of india today.
Many indians have been conditioned to consider all good things in indian culture as coming from outside. So when they see something worthy in indian culture, they are blinded to the fact that it is inherent to indian culture. They insist on finding something outside to india and relating that to it.
Such indians are also unable to accept that bhAratiya samskriti and parampara was good. That it stayed good for many millenniums. That it is still good despite the otherwise accouterments given by westerners and some indians under western influence.
These conditioned people seek to bring out obscure inconsistent references as ‘evidence’ to support their blindness to truth.
Sometimes such conditioned people behave like “Wendy’s children”. Explained well by Shri Rajiv Malhotra (see links)
– The RISA Lila
– Geopolitics and Sanskrit Phobia
– Traditional Knowledge Systems
and in many other articles.
A person who refuses to recognise that his disease is not inherent to him is unlikely to get well, however ostensibly he may seem to be acting to get rid of it.
Incognito,
I gave the link of internet link as an example reference. If you want authentic Lingayata/Veerashaiva sources, go visit one of the numerous mathas in Karnataka. I have. So until you do, there is no way I can give you any other evidence of what Basaveshwara did.
Thanks for the links and personal lecture about how “conditioned people” behave. I shall ignore this thread as I see no progress in the discussion.
It was amazing, in this link KK asked to contribute to the discussion and now ditched everyone with rudeness. I doubt, was he seriously looking for solution or showing his arrogant attitude here, and he is superman!
How come something can be seen with only one kind of glass? One need to explore everything in searching for the solution and he is here with solution— i shall ignore this thread. Beautiful!
First step for everyone who invites others on table to discus: Learn to respect differences and keep your self outside of discussion.
Who so ever reading; take it as a person lecture. We were not here to contribute to the link to be treated like this. All contributor to the link had self respect and the person who asked for the discussion doesn’t know what it is.
Hello All,
Firstly I do not think Hindus should feel defensive or guilty about Varna. Caste is alien to India, the word itself is Portugese. However Varna or color states very clearly that the Guna of a Human Being can only be a combination, Satvic(thinking), Rajasic(action) and Tamasic(inaction or laziness).
Three gunas can only combine in the following ways
Satvic, Rajasic, Tamasic : More inclined to thinking and then action. Dullness will be less prominent in them. Self-discipline will rule over the person.
Rajasic, Satvic, Tamasic : Warriors and sports-people, if you like, are given to action and thought in that order. They are also less lazy otherwise they cannot succeed in their chosen field.
Rajasic, Tamasic, Satvic : Material wealth is the only goal. Earning money will be the first goal while the morality involved in it will be relegated to the last activity.
Tamasic, Rajasic, Satvic : These are men/women who pre-dominantly remain dull and lazy and can end up with jobs that do not give then a social standing.
If you ask anyone in the world at to ow a society would be organised at any point in human history the honest answer would be YES. This truth defies TIME & SPACE just like all the aspects of Hindu Wisdom.
Another point I wish to share with you all is that there is a dharmic view and there is an Abrahmic view of the world.
Abrahmic:
closed in views(intolerant), one book, one founder,MONOTHEISTIC, us vs them attitude, others are evil, justify use of violence against enemies, non-dialectic etc.
Dharmic
open in view(tolerant), many books, many leaders but no one founder, polytheistic, everyone is worthy of worship, non-violence is worshipped as a virtue, dialectic in nature.
The trouble with us in India is we haven’t understood that not only does Islam and, Christianity are Abrahamic but Marxism also is Abrahamic.
This understanding can go a long way in dealing with these retards. These guys think their ideology is supreme and could go to the extent of compromising national interest and security. They can sell anything.
All of them have the tendency to re-write History.
“All that 2500 years of efforts by Buddha and Mahavira, followed by emperors Chandra Gupta Maurya, Ashoka and their followers were to no avail ? The 2000 years of loving efforts by Thomas’s followers was useless ? The 1300 years of peaceful love from Khilji’s followers could not change the minds of ‘dalits’ ? The 250 years of civilizing mission by Macaulay, Max Mueller, Francis Xavier and Vasco da Gama went nowhere ? The 55 years of socialist, secular affirmative reservation-oriented efforts by our dear indians were not fruitful ?”
Dear Incongito,
Right questions to ask. According to Dr.Ambedkar himself, this preactice of Untouchability(Dalits) is no older than 200CE-600CE. He candidly admits that untouchability was not part of Hinduism’s books like Vedas, Manusmriti etc. These practices originated during 200CE to 600CE (let us all use CE/BCE instead of A.D/B.C)when there was a clash between hinduism and buddhism. The books of Dr. Ambedkar are available at http://www.ambedkar.org
I see that Incognito has really worked to give solutions to the problem. He has listed them down in many of his previous comments. Everyone please go through them.
Adherence to Dharma as it has been inunciated by Shastras is the medicine for the sorry state of Caste culture in India. Nowadays, one can see many spiritual organisations like ISKCON actually working for solving this issue which many participants of this blog have declared as impossible to solve or very very difficult to solve. My observation has been that none of the Iskcon devotees (whether rural or urban) relate themselves to the caste/varna they are born into. Rather they have good understanding that the varna system is classified on the basis of nature/activities of an individual. Inherently equipped with the all-encompassing attitude of its founder and the teachings of the middle century saint Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Iskcon has enabled the Bhakti movement to present a positive image of Hinduism devoid of casteism unlike the christian evangelists.
The many Vaishnava mathas(like the TTD) have already started training the dalits and other lower castes in priestly services of temple worship. The devotees from TTD like Sri Kamal Kumar Swamy are already carrying out community building activities which have been torn apart by evangelisations. They are encouraging the villagers to participate in different aspects of spirituality and acquire skills and activities particular to their nature. The caste conscious brahmanas have also started to realise that co-existence is the way to survival of the Hindu culture. And have started to focus on spirituality rather than caste/power politics.
There are signs of improvement. and the solution is spiritual. Indeed.
Probably we all following this post can start by doing some brahma-jigyasa(vedanta sutra) Enquiry about the purpose of life and the Absolute.
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The Chronology of exploitation in India after British Invasion
1. At first stage along with Brahmins kshatrias & Vaisias joined and did the exploitation
..
5. At third stage after Independence almost 2/3 of this group joined hand with the forth Varna (Sudra) calling themselves as actual brethren and placed all the social backwardness are due to exploitation of Brahmins.
..
10. At fifth stage the strengthened Regional parties became powerful and they are the deciding factor for Government formation at the center and entirely changed the single party rule at the centre for a long period.
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
Pl keep your comment(s) short and to the point. Thanks
Incognito,
I gave the link of internet link as an example reference. If you want authentic Lingayata/Veerashaiva sources, go visit one of the numerous mathas in Karnataka. I have. So until you do, there is no way I can give you any other evidence of what Basaveshwara did.
Thanks for the links and personal lecture about how “conditioned people†behave. I shall ignore this thread as I see no progress in the discussion.
A brief excerpt from Indian Dalits find no refuge from caste in Christianity By Swaminathan Natarajan:
Many in India have embraced Christianity to escape the age-old caste oppression of the Hindu social order, but Christianity itself in some places is finding it difficult to shrug off the worst of caste discrimination.
In the town of Trichy, situated in the heart of the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu, a wall built across the Catholic cemetery clearly illustrates how caste-based prejudice persists.
Those who converted to Christianity from the formerly “untouchable” Hindu caste groups known as Dalits are allocated space for burial on one side of the wall, while upper-caste converts are buried on the other side.
The separating wall was built over six decades ago.
…
This practice is fading in the big cities and towns, but in some places in rural Tamil Nadu, caste-based graveyards are still in operation.
…
The Church is meanwhile accused by critics of refusing to give “just representation” for Dalits in its power structure, even while it campaigns for a separate quota for the Dalit Christians in government jobs.
Fr Yesumariyan says: “In Tamil Nadu, over 70% of Catholics are Dalit converts. But only four out of 18 bishops are from the Dalit-Christian community.
“In many places influential caste groups have lobbied and made sure that only the person belonging to their caste is being appointed as bishop in their diocese.”
…
“There are hardly any inter-caste marriages among converted Christians. Until recently, Church-run magazines carried matrimonial advertisements containing specific caste references. Only after our protest they stopped it.”
http://churumuri.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/for-one-good-turn-deserves-another-and-another/
Stumbled on this today: Are Brahmins the Dalits of today? by Francois Gautier. Slightly dated (May ’06) but thought-provoking. Some excerpts:
Two articles from Swaminathan S Aiyar tracing the improving socio-economic condititions of Dalits in Uttar Pradesh.
Dalits are marching ahead in Uttar Pradesh
and The social revolution in Uttar Pradesh
Thanks to Dnyanesh for alerting.
Excerpted from a comment by Kaffir on another post:
Morris wrote: “I agree that hindu thinkers of the past perhaps did think about human rights and other issues. But that is not very important.â€
==
Yes – perhaps, maybe, perchance, conceivably, could be, might be. Not important. What’s important is to create doubt.
Morris wrote: “What is important is that it is the judeo xian culture that articulated the importance of these values and tried to put them in practice.â€
==
Now we come to what is really important – assertions of certitiude, with complete absence of “perhaps.†Of course what is really important is the judeo ctian culture that not only articulated the importance of these values of equality of all, but tried to put them in practice – the same Judeo-Christian culture that legalized and elevated to a fine art, the practices of slavery, racism and women disenfranchisement, and wrote all this in its holy books as word of almighty god.
Morris, conflating Hinduism with only the caste system is a trick that is getting very old and ineffective. Please come up with some new tricks – that stick of caste system has worn thin with repeated use.
***
Also, the follow-up comment by Kaffir:
But you see, the past of slavery and racism (1960s when segregation was made unlawful in the US, apartheid dismantled in 1994 in South Africa) engendered by the Amazing and Wonderful judeo-xtian culture is not important and needs to be ignored, whereas caste system – now, that has to define Hinduism in the past as well as present and future, as if that’s the one single product as well as the defining feature of SanAtan Dharm. At least you didn’t mention – yet – Sati, child marriage and female feticide.
From Gangotri Temple to train Dalit boys
United News of India
Gangotri,Uttarakhand, Nov 3:
Opening up the exclusive preserves of brahmins, the Gangotri temple priests have agreed to bring in young and talented dalits into the temple precints for training.
Gangotri Mandir chief priest and management president Pt. Sanjiv Semwal with his team of office bearers are agreed that the Mandir must train young and talented Dalits( scheduled caste) boys in Dharma Shiksha and Karam Kand,so far confined to Brahmins, said Rajya Sabha M.P Tarun Vijay…
Some of you must have seen this article that appeared the Daily Mail today: Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026939/Indian-couple-lost-jobs-forbidden-love-centre-caste-discrimination-tribunal.html
Here is what I wrote in response on the website.
******
I do not know the details of this particular case so I will refrain from commenting on it. But some sweeping generalisations (and factual errors) in the article need to be pointed out.
1] The article says, “Dating back to at least 1500BC” – this is grossly inaccurate. There are no historical records from this time that mention the “caste system” (the word itself is of Portuguese origin; its misuse and misunderstanding of the meaning contributes further to such ignorancere; Pl see this link for more https://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/11/25/caste-varna-and-jatis/
2] The article mentions that “Despite being outlawed in the Indian constitution during the last decade“. This is wrong. The “caste system” was outawed in India since the time of post-Independence Contitution, more than 60 years ago.
3] If Mrs Begraj is indeed a Sikh – as the article claims, there is no case to be made here since Skihism does not have a “caste system”
4] And finally, re. “While the Brahmins..hold meetings and group events so people can meet and marry“, such events are hardly limited to Brahmins, They are becoming popular amongst socially aware families to reduce the burden of marriage expenses and to help youngsters find suitable partners from those with similar backgrounds. By the way, numerous such meets cut across castes and are not limited to a sub-group.
******
Posting this 7-min video on “Brahmins & Upper Caste Hindus” here for the record
Bhagavad -Gita 4.13: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created.” (Also check Bhagavad gita slokas 4.13, 14.5, 18.41, 18.42, 18.43, 18.44)
These divisions are brahmanas(Priest), ksatriyas(Warrior or administrative class), vaisyas(mercantile class), sudras(laborer class).
If Varna is different from Jati then is this possible: A person is ksatriyas(Warrior or administrative class)according to varna and the same person is Vaisya(mercantile) or sudra(Labour) or Brahmana according to “Jati” is this possible?. No.
Jati is broader term it refers it refers to any broader classification like: Manava Jati, Deva Jati, Rakshasa Jati, Nara Jati, Pashu Jati etc. But this Jati is based on Birth in particular type of species but not related to Caste.
Anyway by Birth all the Human beings on this earth belong to Manava Jati.
Varana is the Real caste based on Accupation(work) and Aptitude/Gunas. This Varna is the social order based on Accupation(work) and Aptitude/Gunas.
Some excerpts from Caste System: Its’ Life & Birth:
Assuming ‘Hindu’ elites established this system in 1200 years, why have Muslim, Christian and Secular rulers not been able to remove it in the last 1200 years.
…It cannot be removed, because it does not exist.
What exists today is a system where the Indian economy was handed over to different communities by IslÄmic and Christian rulers – under the Iqtedaari system, Jagirdaari system, Zamindaari system.
…
This created a ‘rentier’ class of land owners, who ill-treated the former land owners, whose wealth was seized and re-distributed.
…
Words and logic apart, there is visual evidence that the caste system as ideated and portrayed by the British did not exist. Below is a selection of 5 images of India, dated between 1799-1899, before Risley came out with his caste-system ideas.
What these paintings show in great detail, is how in Indian bazaars and streets, there was a vibrant trade in rotis (unleavened bread), makhan (butter), mithai (sweet-meats). How could this be possible in a society where untouchability was rampant and embedded?
From http://sanskrit.asia/2012/06/28/of-sanskrit-and-evil-brahmans/
The second मंतà¥à¤° in the chapter 26 of Yajurved makes short shrift of the discrimination. It states
बà¥à¤°à¤¹à¥à¤®à¤°à¤¾à¤œà¤¨à¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤à¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤‚म शूदà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤¯ चारà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤¯ च सà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¯ चारणाय
i.e.
बà¥à¤°à¤¹à¥à¤® (Brahm) has created the light of Vedic knowledge for women, brahmans, kshatreeys, vaishyas, shoodrs and servants.
Despite such clarity, the myth about sanskrit and the scriptures was created and propagated with the help of state power through perversion of educational institutions.
I have not verified this so any help/assistance appreciated. Thanks
Hi All
Understanding Cast System of India —
How are we to destroy this caste system? ??????
Several attempts have been made [but they all failed]…Ambedkar…finally [resorted to] Renouncing Hindu religion and embracing the atheistic Buddhism along with thousands of his ‘Mahar’ followers. Several social reformers too tried to attack the caste system but all of them failed including men like Basavanna, Narayana Guru, Vivekananda and Periyar…[and] Gandhi.
How can all of the above Failed , People Like Buddha to Basavanna have failed in eradicating the caste system, then there must be something seriously wrong about their approach to the problem itself. Or, our understanding of the caste system
Thanks
Sudeep
@Sudeep,
Buddha was NOT against caste system. I think there is something seriously wrong with our own understanding of the problem. Please read Koenrad Elst’s article here-
http://koenraadelst.blogspot.in/2012/05/buddha-and-caste.html
@ Gyan
Even Buddha is also Condemned Caste System , By some of his quotes and his thoughts which justify the same , My Point here is Buddha did attempted (at least he put some efforts to eradicate caste system ) But Yet all of them failed , Which clearly shows something seriously wrong about their approach to the problem itself. Or, our understanding of the caste system.
I am Giving some example below Buddha’s Thoughts on cast system
The Buddha condemned the caste system, which he considered unjust. He pointed out that there existed wicked and cruel people as well as virtuous and kind people in every caste. Any person who had committed a crime would be punished accordingly by his karma no matter what caste he belonged to. He said a person may be considered to have come from a high or low caste according to his good and bad deeds. Therefore, according to the Buddha it is the good and bad actions of a person and not his birth that should determine his caste.
The Buddha introduced the idea of placing a higher value on morality and the equality of people instead of on which family or caste a person is born into. This was also the first attempt to abolish discrimination and slavery in the history of mankind.
The Buddha said:
By birth one is not an outcaste,
By birth one is not a Brahmin;
By deeds alone one is an outcaste,
By deeds alone one is a Brahmin
Many Thanks
Sudeep
@Sudeep,
It seems you have not read Elst’s article a link to which was given in my above reply. It contradicts his image as one who opposed caste system.
I am just giving a small quote from the same, though entire article is worth a read-
” In his study of caste and the Buddha (“Buddhism, an atheistic and anti-caste religion? Modern ideology and historical reality of the ancient Indian Bauddha Dharmaâ€, Journal of Religious Culture, no.50 (2001)), the German Indologist Edmund Weber quotes the biographical source-text Lalitavistara and concludes: “The standpoint which caste a Buddha should belong to has not been revised in Buddhism up to the present day. It is dogmatised in the “Lalitavistara” in the following way: a Bodhisattva can by no means come from a lower or even mixed caste: ‘After all Bodhisattvas were not born in despised lineage, among pariahs, in families of pipe or cart makers, or mixed castes.’ Instead, in perfect harmony with the Great Sermon, it was said that: ‘The Bodhisattvas appear only in two kinds of lineage, the one of the brahmanas and of the warriors (kshatriya).’—
Pl have a look at this series of posts on Agniveer on the Caste System: http://agniveer.com/series/caste-series/
Pl have a look at this series of posts on Agniveer on the Caste System
Some links on caste, vana, jatis etc. courtesy Dr Kalyanaraman-ji:
Caste as social wealth of nation — Hindu tradition and the family-, jÄti-, Å›reni-based social security institutions
1. India Growth: Caste as Social Capital by Dr R. Vaidyanathan -http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/India-Growth~-Caste-as-Social-Capital-1.aspx
2. When caste was not a bad word by sanjeev nayyar in Hindustan Times Mumbai – http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/When-caste-was-not-a-bad-word-1.aspx
3. Communities as open-air business schools by S Gurumurthy – http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/communities-as-openair-business-schools/article4766385.ece
4. Vedas on Caste by sanjay rao – http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Who-will-save-Hinduism-2.aspx
5. Why Caste can’t be so one-dimensional by sanjeev nayyar in Firstpost.com -http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Rethinking-caste~Why-we-can%60t-be-so-one~dimensional-1.aspx
6. Impact of 1881 Cenus on Caste by Dharampalji – http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Rediscovering-India-by-Dharampal-13.aspx
7. Demystifying Caste by sanjeev nayyar – http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Demystifying-Caste-1.aspx
8. Indigenous Education in the 18th century by Dharampalji. Gives tables of the caste wise composition in schools of Madras Presidency around 1820. Interesting. -http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapters/Indigeneous-Education-in-the-18th-century-1.aspx
http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.in/2013/05/fiscal-policies-and-financial.html
Hi Shantanu
Not Only You , Almost everyone I know has very firm moral opinions on the subject Of Caste System. Many see in it the origin of all kinds of evils in India: from the denial of human rights to oppression; some see in it obstacles to progress and modernization and so on. As These are taught us from our Child hood from School Text book , Which i am afraid nothing but a Colonized Mind Set
I suppose we agree that we need to understand a phenomenon before making moral judgments. With this in mind, if you try and find out what this famous caste system is, and why people either attack or defend it,
Then We discover the fSome of the Very Extra ordinary Thing That is
No ancient book exists that tells us what the principles of the caste system are; no Indian can tell you about its structure or its organization; no scientific theory has been developed that explains how or why it continues to exist. Simply put, nobody understands what it is or how it functions. In that case, how can anyone be pro or contra to the caste system?
If we focus on how people normally describe this system and understand how easy it is to turn such a description upside down, the absurdity of the situation becomes obvious. While emphasizing that I do not attack and much less defend the caste system in what follows, let us just look at the existing descriptions and their consequences.
(a) Caste is an antiquated social system that arose in the dim past of India. !!!!
Fine , Then If this is true, it has survived we cant Deny that it has (Caste System ) many challenges – the onslaught of Buddhism and the Bhakti movements, the Islamic and British colonization, Indian independence, world capitalism – and might even survive ‘globalization’. It follows, then, that the caste system is a very stable social organization.
(b) There exists no centralized authority to enforce the caste system across the length and breadth of India. In that case, it is an autonomous and decentralized organization.
(c) All kinds of social and political regulations, whether by the British or by the Indians, have not been able to eradicate this system. If it is true ( and Its is True ), it means that the caste system is a self-reproducing social structure.
(d) Caste system exists among the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Jains, the Christians, the Muslims… It has also existed under different environments. This means that this system adapts itself to the environments it finds itself in.
(e) Because new castes have come and gone over the centuries, this system must also be dynamic.
(f) Since caste system is present in different political organizations and survives under different political regimes, it is also neutral with respect to political ideologies.
Even though more can be said, this is enough for us. A simple redescription of what we think we know about the caste system tells us that it is an autonomous, decentralized, stable, adaptive, dynamic, self-reproducing social organization. It is also neutral with respect to political, religious and economic doctrines and environments. If indeed such a system ever existed, would it also not have been the most ideal form of social organization one could ever think of?
How can we try to understand this odd state of affairs? The question of the immorality of the caste system became immensely important after the British came to India. Consequently, there are two interesting possibilities to choose from that is
,First Will be Indians did not criticize the caste system (before the British came to India) because Indians are immoral;
Second Europeans ‘discovered’ something that simply does not exist in India, viz. the social organization that the caste system is supposed to be.
The reason why I have ask you spent some more time on this issue is to signal in the direction of a problem, which has very far-reaching consequences. If what Europe knows about India resembles what it claims to know about the caste system, what exactly does Europe know about India or her culture? Not very much, I am afraid. Precisely at a time when, to survive in a ‘globalizing’ world, knowledge of other cultures and peoples is a necessity, it appears as though Europe knows very little about either of the two.
Perhaps, the absence of knowledge is felt most acutely by the Europeans who invest in India. They rediscover that they are not well-equipped to do business in India. They understand neither the culture, nor the role of cultural differences in management structures and organizations. The books and articles on “culture and management†are full only of platitudes; on top of that, the newest trend in anthropology tells us that the notions of “culture†and “cultural differences†are almost of no use in understanding people.
In other words, I am suggesting the following: Europe’s ‘knowledge’ about India will be tested during this century. What the Europeans think they know of India tells us more about Europe than it does about India. In that case, quite obviously, the earlier generations of Indian thinkers were not merely busy instituting and defending immoral practices. What else were they doing then? Why none of them are written against on this caste system , Why just we waked up only after British Showed us that caste system was Wrong ???
Sudeep
“विपà¥à¤°à¥‹ पि यॠà¤à¤µà¥‡à¤¨à¥à¤®à¥‚रà¥à¤–े: स पà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤¦ आहिसà¥à¤¤à¥ मे। कà¥à¤®à¥à¤à¤•à¤¾à¤°à¥‹ पि यो विदà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤‚स तिषà¥à¤ तॠपà¥à¤°à¥‡ मम।|”
Rough Translation (in Hindi): “मेरे शहर में अगर बà¥à¤°à¤¾à¤¹à¥à¤®à¤£ à¤à¥€ मà¥à¤°à¥à¤– रहता हो..तो वह शहर से निकल जावे और यदि कà¥à¤®à¥à¤¹à¤¾à¤° à¤à¥€ विदà¥à¤µà¤¾à¤¨ हो तो वो यहाठआकर बसे।” – राजा à¤à¥‹à¤œ का आदेश।
Rough Translation (in English): Even a Brahmin in my city/region/kingdom should be forced to leave the city if he is ignorant/stupid. And even a potter should be welcomes and invited to settle here if he is learned (Raja Bhoj’s edict)
Gurcharan Das writes in Trading communities thrive on risks, trust: Our much-maligned caste system may have actually given us a competitive advantage.
Excerpts from When the caste die was cast by G.S. Mudur, Jan. 25 2016:
…
A genetic study has traced the emergence of a strict caste system in India to about 1,575 years ago, indicating that the Gupta dynasty imposed social strictures on populations that had until then mixed and mated largely unfettered.
The study, by scientists at the National Institute of Biomedical Genomics at Kalyani in Bengal, has also shown that five ancestral populations – not two as inferred earlier – spawned the tapestry of India’s present-day population diversity.
…
“We’ve now identified a sharp window of time that marks a consolidation of the caste system,” Partha Majumder, the director of the Kalyani institute who led the new study, told The Telegraph.
…
Majumder and his colleagues Analabha Basu and Neeta Sarkar Roy analysed the genetic makeup of 367 people from 20 populations chosen to represent the diversity of India’s population.
They picked Khatris from northern India, Brahmins from Bengal and Gujarat, Iyers and other Dravidian speakers from southern India, Marathas from Maharashtra and several tribes from central and southern India and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, among others.
Their research aimed at reconstructing India’s population history by studying subtle differences in genomic makeup that can reveal information about individuals’ ancestry, their genetic distance from others, and signatures of endogamy – marriage only within one’s community – in populations.
Their study shows that most populations on mainland India owe their ancestry to four groups: the ANI, the ASI and two others — an ancestral Tibeto-Burman (ATB) group, and an ancestral Austro-Asiatic (AAA) group.
The Jarawas and the Onges share their ancestry with present-day Pacific islanders, implying a distinct ancestral population for these Andaman and Nicobar tribes.
The genetic evidence also suggests that almost all upper-caste populations began to practise endogamy about 70 generations ago after a long period of unrestricted mixing.
“The gene flow across these populations came to an abrupt end about 1,575 years ago, assuming an average of 22 years for each generation,” Majumder said.
“We went back to history books and found that this period coincides with the reign of the Gupta emperors.”
The scientists say their findings suggest that the Gupta rulers — possibly Chandragupta II or Kumaragupta I — used the state machinery of a developing political economy to enforce social and moral strictures leading to strict and widespread endogamy.