A rebuttal to Abul Kasem – “Women in Hinduism” by R Maliger
Some of you may have come across an article on Islam-watch recently that contained several derogatory references – supposedly from vedic texts – towards women and their position in ancient Hindu society. I was first alerted to it a few weeks ago by Jagmohan.
While I was still trying to compile references and source material to refute the claims made in the article, Parama Karuna-ji introduced me to Raju Maliger who forwarded me his rebuttal to Abul Kasem.
I would put this essay by Sh Maliger in the category of *Must read*. The rebuttal is well-referenced and will be invaluable in countering mis-conceptions and distortions that are peddled under the garb of “Hindu” religious practices or vedic references.
Without further ado, below are excerpts from Raju Maliger’s essay. Please read and circulate widely…
*** CAUTION: Long Post ***
*** Excerpts “A rebuttal to Abul Kasem – Women in Hinduism” by Raju Maliger ***
“O Universal God, please lead us from untruth to truth, from darkness to light, from death to immortality, OM let there be Peace, Peace, and Peace†said my Vedic ancestors 5000 years ago in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (1.3.28).
Introduction: Recently, I came across on Islam-watch website a derogatory article titled “Women in Hinduism†written by Abul Kasem. The author claims himself to be a Bangladesh-born ex-Muslim who has written few books and articles on issues concerning Islam and terrorism. It is evident from many of his articles that he is better versed with Arabic language and its religion than in the culture and religion of his Vedic ancestors. Based on his article on women in Hinduism, it is quite evident that he simply copied verses from books and websites that claim to provide translations of the Vedas and Vedanta, but never bothered to investigate the real meaning of the original Sanskrit verses. Never once in his article has Abul provided correct translation of the Vedic verses he has quoted. Apparently, Kasem hasn’t done any scholarly research on his own. Rather, he has reproduced verses from websites and few books, without bothering to investigate the real meaning of the original Sanskrit verses. When many sincere people on the forum questioned the non-existence of the verses he is said to have taken from that website, he blamed that the aforesaid website had removed many inconvenient verses and thus washed off his hands. In Hinduism, there is a system of scholarly debate (vaada-vivaada), which Kasem is fully aware of.
In this article, I shall refute Kasem by (i) describing the glorification of women in Vedas and providing the correct translation and meanings of the verses quoted by Kasem, and (ii) showing how Colonial British were involved in denigrating Vedas and fabricating Aryan invasion theory, which Kasem and other ignorant authors repeat like parrots without even bothering to look into the current status of such theories.
Analysis of Abul Kasem’s article: Abul Kasem’s article can be found here here. It is interesting to note that he uses terms such as Sati Pratha and Dasi Pratha that are patented by Christian missionary organizations, which aim to harvest so-called heathen, pagan…souls by publishing derogatory information about other religions.
Kasem writes: Our oldest books are the ‘Vedas’, which contain highly objectionable and condemnable passages concerning women.
Rebuttal: The Sanskrit word Veda comes from the root word vid, which means knowledge. So, Vedas have been imparting imperishable knowledge to mankind since time immemorial and are now becoming popular in the West as well. Regarding Kasem’s comment on the presence of objectionable verses in Vedas on women, it should be noted that Hinduism is the last of the surviving so-called PAGAN religions (term coined by Abrahamic faiths) that continues to worship GODDESS as Shakti and energy. In Vedas earth, nature, rivers, and divine energy are represented by Mother Goddess. She is also called the nourisher of mankind and all planets in the universe. If Vedas were to denigrate women, then they shouldn’t have contained glorifying verses on Mother Goddess, or women in general.
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Kasem writes: ‘Sati pratha’ (custom of burning widows with the body of their husbands), ‘Dasi Pratha’ (keeping the slave-girls), ‘Niyog Pratha’ (ancient Aryan custom of childless widow or women having sexual intercourse with a man other than husband to beget child), were among cruel customs responsible for the plight of the women.
Rebuttal: It should be noted clearly that the terms Sati Pratha, Dasi Pratha, and Niyog Pratha do not find any mention in any of the four Vedas (Rig, Yajur, Sama, Atharva), 18 Puranas, and Upanishads which are considered sacred by all Hindus. The meaning of Sati is a virtuous woman or wife, and it is always associated with Pati (husband). The meaning of Pratha in Sanskrit is scattering, flattening, extending, or spreading out. However, the word Pratha does not appear together with Sati even once in any of the authentic Hindu scriptures mentioned above. Abul Kasem should to do a personal research to locate the Sanskrit phrase sati pratha in our scriptures. On the other hand, Kasem will…find such neo-Indology terms in any of the Christian missionary websites and Bengali communist sources. The custom of burning widows with the body of their husbands is not mentioned in the scriptures.
In fact, Rig Veda (10.18.8) states exactly the opposite. Here is the translation of the same verse- “Rise, woman, and go to the world of living beings: Come, this man near whom you lie is dead: You have enjoyed this state of being the wife of your husband, the suitor who took you by the hand.â€
Here, a widow is advised to live her life instead of grieving over her dead husband as the Karma of spending earthly time as husband and wife is over due to his death. Many of the Christian missionaries twist the meaning of this verse to demonize Hinduism. In Ramayana, we find that King Dasharath’s wives lived with their children even after their husband’s death. Ravana’s wife, Mandodari, didn’t commit suicide upon the death of her husband. In Mahabharata Kunti, Pandu’s widow, lived in the royal palace till she became old. If Kasem finds enough time to read the medieval history of India, he will notice that the custom of widows jumping into the funeral pyres of their husbands started (in medieval times)…Instead of falling prey to these marauders, Hindu women committed suicide by jumping into the funeral pyre of their husbands. Later on, in the medieval ages it became a custom under the name Johar in certain parts of Northern India where the Islamic onslaught was at its peak.
The meaning of Dasi is ‘female worker’ or ‘servant’ and NOT ‘slave girl’. We find the term ‘slave’ rampantly used in Old Testament and Quran, wherein the God (?) gives permission for believers to wage war against other religions, rape the enslaved women, and sell them in the market as slaves. On the other hand, Kasem should be aware of the fact that the wars between Hindu Kingdoms were fought only amongst the warriors. Civilians, agricultural lands, properties, and places of worship were never touched irrespective of the outcome of the war. I advice Kasem to read the rules and regulations set aside by Bhishma for the Kurukshetra war in the Bhishma Parva section of Mahabharata. In fact, Megasthanes, a Greek Ambassador during the time of Alexander, has recorded in his memoirs that farmers, sages, and other civilians walking in a field near the battlefield, where a war was fought between two Hindu kingdoms, were never harmed. Therefore, the question of keeping slave-girls never existed in Vedic society. If Kasem thinks that the assistants to princesses and Kings are slaves, then I wonder what he considers the attendants of Queen Elizabeth or the President of America. Finally, the meaning of the word Niyog is application, employment, task, duty, or function. I am not sure how he is associating Niyog with Pratha. Many…authors mention the phrase ‘Niyog pratha’ in their articles, but no one dares to quote authentic references from the four Vedas, 18 Puranas, and Upanishads.
Kasem writes: Naturally, seeking shelter under such religious sanctions, unscrupulous women disgraced women to the maximum possible extent and made them means of satisfying their lust. No one wanted a daughter. As a result; female infant came to be considered unwanted. No one wanted a daughter. Everyone was interested in having a son. The birth of the son was celebrated, but the birth of the daughter plunged family into gloom. This attitude still persists, even though certain other customs have undergone changes.
Rebuttal: If Kasem is writing about the female infanticide practiced in few remote villages in India, then he has every right to criticize it. However, such a heinous system has no backing from the Hindu religious scriptures. In fact there is a saying- every family needs a daughter for performing Aarati (an auspicious ceremony). The birth of a son or daughter in a family was considered equally auspicious. In the last 1000 years, Hinduism may have adopted bad practices due to outside influence. However, the core of Hindu scriptures adores women. In fact, Sri Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita “Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness, and patience; of poetry I am the Goddess Gayatri verse, sung daily by the intelligent.†(Gita 10:34-35)
Kasem writes: ‘Rig Veda’ itself says that a women should beget sons. The newly married wife is blessed so that she could have 10 sons.
Rebuttal: If Kasem has read Vedas, then he should be able to quote the exact verse number in the Rig Veda to uphold his claim. Otherwise, he is venting out his hallucination and displaying idiosyncrasy. In fact, Yajur Veda (14.2.71) states “I am this man, that dame are you; I am the psalm and you the verse. I am the heaven and you the earth. So will we dwell together here, parents of children yet to be.â€
Kasem writes: So much so, that for begetting a son, ‘Vedas’ prescribe a special ritual called ‘Punsawan sanskar’ (a ceremony performed during third month of pregnancy).
Rebuttal: The word Punsawan means ‘manliness’. During the ‘Punsawan Sanskar’ ceremony, which is performed during the third month of pregnancy, a husband vows to observe celibacy during the duration of pregnancy and lactation and ensure the happiness and health of his wife, and in return, the wife vows to do all she can to ensure the perfect well-being of the foetus so that the child is born strong and healthy…. For more information on Sanskars, please visit the following link.
Kasem writes: During the ceremony it is prayed:”Almighty God, you have created this womb. Women may be born somewhere else but sons should be born from this womb” [Atharva Ved 6/11/3].
Rebuttal: Atharva Veda (6/11/3) states “PrajÄpati, Anumati, Sinivali have ordered it. Elsewhere may he cause the birth of maids, but here beget a boy.†It is already made clear what Punsawan Sanskar is and it has nothing to do with the Atharva Veda verse. This verse is a prayer to get a boy and has nothing against women. If a warrior family needed a male child for the kingdom to fight future wars, then what is wrong in praying God to beget them a male child. Likewise, there are many instances where parents pray for the birth of a female child. Now, what do we infer from the following Rig Veda verse (5.61.6) –“Many-a-times woman is more firm and better than the man who shuns away from Gods and does not offer sacrifices (yajna).†Why did the sages quote exactly the opposite thing here when compared with Atharva veda (6/11/3)? Isn’t Kasem quoting everything out of context?
Kasem writes: “O Husband protect the son to be born. Do not make him a women” [Atharva Ved 2/3/23]
Rebuttal: It is important to note that Book 2, Section 3 of Atharva Veda refers to the medicinal properties of water. Most important thing to note here is that there are only 6 verses in that section. Kasem is either ignorant about this or he is using…deception…to fool gullible people.
Kasem writes: In ‘Shatpath Puran (Shatpath Brahman)’ a sonless women has been termed as unfortunate.
Rebuttal: Which verse in Shatapatha Brahmana says so?
Kasem writes: Hindu scriptures in other places say: “There cannot be any friendship with a women. Her heart is more cruel than heyna” [Rig Ved 10/95/15.]
Rebuttal: Here is the correct translation of Rig Veda 10/95/15: [Urvashi says] “Die not Pururava, fall not; let not the hideous wolves devour you. Female friendships do not exist; their hearts are the hearts of jackals.†I am sure Kasem doesn’t even know who the addressor and addressee of this verse are, and yet he quotes everything out of context. Here, it is essential to understand that out of jealousy Urvashi, a WOMAN, is addressing Pururava (her lover) not to become friendly with other women. As any person would fear the separation of her lover, Urvashi uttered this out of sheer possessiveness for Pururava. More importantly, it is not told by the venerable devatas (Gods) of the Vedas. For more information, one can refer to ‘Vikramorvasheeya’, a play written by the world renowned poet, Kalidasa, wherein he describes the romantic life of Pururava and Urvashi.
Kasem writes: ‘Yajur Ved (Taitriya Sanhita)- “Women code says that the women are without energy. They should not get a share in property. Even to the wicked they speak in feeble manner” [Yajur Ved 6/5/8/2]
Rebuttal: Firstly, the verse is incorrectly translated to suit the needs of early Indologists. For the benefit of all readers, I shall quote the original Sanskrit verse, its translation, and the context of the verse.
lokam ajigamsan te swargam lokam na prajanan
te etam patnivacham apashyan tam agrhanat
tato vai te swargam lokam prajanan
yat patnivacho grhyate swargasya lokasya prajnatyai
sa somo natishtata stribhyo grhymanas
te ghrtam vajram krtvaghnan
tasmaat striyo indriyaanigrahanti dayadaraah api paapaat pumsa upasthiraram
lokam = world; ajigamsan = discerned; te= they ; swargam = heaven; na = not ; prajanan = discerned; te = they ; etam = this ; patni = wife ; vacham = speech ; apashyan = saw, discerned ; tam = him; agrhanat = took, hold ; tato = from then ; vacho = speech; grhyate = being taken; somo = soma drink; natishtata = not stand; stribhyo = women; grhya= hold; prajna = consciousness; manas = mind; te = they; ghrtam = ghee; vajram= thunderbolt; krtvaghnan= beat it and used; tasmaat = therefore; indriyaanigrahanti = control sense organs; daya= compassionate; aadara = respectful, accommodating; api = also; paapat = with sinful ; pumsa= man; upa= with; asthiraram = not comfortable
Translation: (during Yajna) They could not discern the world; then holding on (listening) to the speech of (their) wives, they certainly discerned the heavenly world. Then, to be conscious about the heaven, they still meditated on their wives’ speech, but (in doing so) soma cold not be held by these women. (To control)They powered on ghee to turn it into a bolt and used it. Therefore, women control sense organs, are also compassionate and respectful, and are not comfortable with sinful man.
Let us analyze the verse more critically. It describes about the assistance of women to their menfolk during the performance of Yajna, using soma, to discern other planetary systems. Soma is a non-alcoholic drink obtained from a sacred plant and was used during Yajna ceremony. The first four lines in all translated works, including the website Kasem has quoted quoted, repeatedly talk about sages getting the help of their wives to discern the object of meditation during Yajna. Therefore, one should expect the last verse to praise them for their help even though they (women) could not hold on to soma.
However, in many verses, we find that after acknowledging the help of the women throughout Yajna, the last line resorts to ridiculing them. Preserved manuscripts, knowledge of Sanskrit grammar, and logic can be used to debunk such claims.
Here is how early Indologists fabricated the last line of the verse: tasmaat striyo nirindriya adayadhir api papat pumsa upasthiraram. In the last line, indriya (senses) is replaced with nirindriya (without senses), daya (compassionate) with adaya (uncompassionate), and aadara (respectful) with adhira (impudent). The most important thing to observe here is the Sanskrit grammar for the word ‘paapaat’. Paapaat is in fifth case (panchami), which means ‘with sinful’. So, ‘paapat pumsa’ should mean ‘with sinful man’. This is further stressed by the presence of the word upa, which means with. If we carefully reconstruct the last line, it should mean “Therefore, women control sense organs, are also compassionate and respectful, and are uncomfortable with SINFUL MANâ€. The Indologists, apart from inserting negative words forgot to change the grammatical structure of the sentence—paapat pumsa upaasthiraram. The subject of the last sentence is tasmaat striyo (therefore women are) and the predicate is paapat pumsa upasthiraram (uncomfortable with sinful man). The sages are definitely complimenting their wives in the last sentence by describing the womanly nature– not comfortable with sinful man, being compassionate, accommodating, and controlling senses. For readers, belief that soma gives divine attributes and so they could discern higher dimensions is a matter of choice, but understanding the context and grammar of the verse is extremely important.
Kasem writes: Shatpath Puran, preachings of the ‘Yajur Veda’ clubs women, ‘shudras’ (untouchables), dogs, crows together and says falsehood, sin and gloom remain integrated in them. [14/1/1/31]
Rebuttal: Kasem should note there is nothing called ‘Shatapath Puran’. However, Shatapatha Brahmana mainly explains how to conduct rituals such as Yajna, offerings to ancestors etc. Before commenting on Shatapatha Brahmana (14/1/1/31), let me quote from Atharva Veda (14.1.64): “Let the man offer Vedic prayers in front of her, behind her, at your centre and at her ends. By doing so, let God’s inviolable grace illuminate her home with good fortune and dignity.†Similarly, Rig Veda (3.53.4) clearly asks every husband to be accompanied by his wife during the Yajna ceremony. In the light of the above verses, let us consider the translation of Shatapatha Brahmana (14/1/1/31): “Let not the unintelligent partake in the sacrificial Yajna; and so are menstruating women, dog, and black crow during the performance of Yajna.â€
According to Shaastras (scriptures), persons performing the Yajna are required to possess the real knowledge of the mantras recited and maintain a clean environment throughout the duration of the ritual. Therefore, unintelligent people stayed away from such rituals, for it is futile to remain there without understanding anything from the process. In those days, women undergoing menstruation temporarily abstained themselves from attending the fire ceremony. This is the logical explanation for Shatapatha Brahmana (14/1/1/31). If what Kasem says is true, then Rig Veda (3.53.4) and Atharva Veda (14.1.64) should have corroborated his claim.
Kasem writes: In ‘Aiterey Puran’, preaching of the ‘Rig Veda’ in Harsih Chandra – Narad dialogue, Narad says: “The daughter causes pain”
Rebuttal: Kasem has not quoted the verse number of Aittereya Purana, and so his claim stands in the muddy waters. Moreover, ‘Aitareya Purana’ doesn’t contain such fairytales.
Kasem writes: “All wife of the host reciting three mantras go round the horse. While praying, they say: ‘O horse, you are, protector of the community on the basis of good qualities, you are, protector or treasure of happiness. O horse, you become my husband.'” [Yajur Veda 23/19.]
Rebuttal: Firstly, let us consider how the source source quoted by Kasem translates Yajur veda 23.19 – “Thee we invoke, troop-lord of troops, Thee we invoke, the loved ones’ lord. Thee, lord of treasures, we invoke. My precious wealth!†Phew! There is no mention of wife or husband in the entire verse. The verses from Chapter 23 explain rituals related to ‘Ashwamedha Yagna’, which was performed by Emperors as a mark of showing superiority over other kingdoms. A powerful king would perform the Yajna and release a horse to wonder in the neighboring kingdoms. Any king that wished to challenge the one who performed the yajna would tie the horse and face him in the battle. The loser would accept the supremacy of the winner. The horse, therefore, is symbolically called ‘precious wealth’ here. It is to be remembered that such battles were fought only between the warriors (Kshatriyas).Here is a video clip video clip showing the religious rites of an ‘Ashwamedha Yajna’. Whatever Kasem has written is …far from truth.
Kasem writes: After the animal is purified by the priest, the principal wife sleeps near the horse and says:
“O Horse, I extract the semen worth conception and you release the semen worth conception'” [Yajur Veda 23/20]
The horse and principal wife spread two legs each. Then the Ardhvaryu (priest) orders to cover the oblation place, raise canopy etc. After this, the principal wife of the host pulls penis of the horse and puts it in her vagina and says: “This horse may release semen in me.” [Yajur Veda 23/20]
Rebuttal: Here is the Sanskrit verse and its translation for Yajur Veda 23/20
tau ubhau chaturah padah samprasarayava swarga lokam |
prasuvava vrshavaaji raghu rathau dadati || Yajur Veda 23/20
tau = we two ; ubhau = both ; chaturah = intelligent ; padah = subject ; samprasarayava = reach out ; swarga lokam = heavenly planet ; prasuvava = command ; vrshavaaji = horse ; raghu = Lord ; rathau = chariots ; dadati = provides
Translation: We both command the intelligent horse as our subject to reach out for heaven (where) the Lord provides (us) the chariots.
The real meaning here is that by performing Ashwamedha yajna, one can get the blessings (written as chariots) of the heavenly King, Indra.
A question then arises on how terminologies such as ‘semen’ and ‘conception’ got embedded into the manuscripts. It was the heinous work of early Indologists, namely, William Jones, Max Mueller, and Pargiter. For a conclusive proof on how they distorted the scriptures to make Hindus to look down upon their scriptures, refer to links A and B.
For more information on this topic, read pages 324-340 of the book “The true history and the religion of India: A concise encyclopedia of authentic Hinduism†by Prakashanand Saraswati. The fabricated manuscripts were translated into various languages across the world. Some of the fabrications deliberately added were sacrificing beef for yajna, pornography, and post-dating of the historical events of India. The distorted verse of Yajurveda (23.20) quoted by Kasem is one of many doctored verses. However, many orthodox Hindus still preserve the real manuscripts of Vedas and Upanishads. When the original verses are compared with the distorted ones, the cataract of ignorance of writers…will be revealed.
Let me explain how the verse in Yajurveda 23.20 is distorted to satisfy the whims and fancies of the fabricators. The word rathao (chariots) is replaced by retau, which means ‘semen’. Next, dadati (gives) is replaced by dadhatu, which means ‘insert’. Finally, raghu (King) is strangely replaced by retaudha, which means ‘conception’. Even in the fabricated verse, it should be retaudheya and not retaudha for the sentence to be grammatically correct. This is how charlatans get caught when they distort the meaning of the verses.
Kasem writes: Then the host, while praying to the horse, says:
“O horse, please throw semen on the upper part of the anus of my wife. Expand your penis and insert it in the vagina because after insertion, this penis makes women happy and lively” [23/21]
Rebuttal: Kasem is clearly translating from the doctored manuscripts, which were prepared by the Colonial Indologists during the middle of 19th century. Here is the original verse.
utsuktya atra pravara guDa andhehi samanjana charya vrsha |
saha stribhyah sanjeeva bhojanah || Yajurveda (23.20)
utsuktya = interestingly; atra = Here (in heaven) ; pravara = eminent (adj) ; guDa = sugar candy, palm sugar (sweet-natured), andhehi = certainly blind ; samanjana = proper understanding, adjustment ; charya = conduct, behavior ; vrsha = Bull ; saha = He ; strishu = amongst women ; sanjeeva = reviving ; bhojanah = food
Translation: Interestingly, here (in the Heaven), even if a sweet-natured, eminent blind man conducts himself with a proper understanding, (then) certainly he, the Bull (among men), will be respected like a reviving food amongst women.
The verse is basically describing about the nature of heaven, which is one of the planets with higher dimensions. In the heaven, even a blind man with a modest behavior is revered by women. The word ‘sanjeeva bhojanah’ means ‘reviving food’. Let me explain how this original verse is fabricated…
In the doctored verse, guDa (palm sugar) is replaced with gudha, which means anus. Vrsha (Bull) is replaced with vrshaNa, which means scrotum. With these two fabricated words, the meaning of the whole verse is rendered unpalatable…
Kasem writes: In the Vedic age, the customs of polygamy was prevalent. Each wife spent most of the time devising ways and means to become favorite to her husband. Clear references are available in Rig Veda 14/45, and Atharva Veda 3/81.
Rebuttal: Before copying the verses from communist and Christian missionary websites, Kasem must understand that there are only 10 Chapters in Rig Veda. Further, it is also interesting to note that there are only 31 hymns in Chapter 3 of Atharva Veda….
The four Vedas as such do not support polygamy. However, it is true that the custom of polygamy was prevalent amongst the Kshatriyas (warriors). This is because of the fact that due to war casualties, the male population of warriors was numerically less than the population of their female counterparts. A woman who preferred a brave warrior would never marry a trader or a brahmana or a labor. Therefore, the warrior class practiced polygamy.
Even then we have glaring examples in Sri Rama, Lakshmana, and others who were married to only one woman. The intellectual class, the merchant class, and the labor class, in most circumstances, practiced monogamy. Many sages observed celibacy throughout their life to practice Yoga.
…in Vedic ages, only kshatriyas (warriors) practiced polygamy for a valid reason without any undue pressure on women. Kshatriya women chose their partners through a practice called ‘Swayamvara’ (swayam = self-choosing; vara = bridegroom).
Kasem writes: The Aryans in those days used to attack the original inhabitants of this place, or other tribe within their own race, loot them and snatch away their women. Thus, these militant, wicked men had more wives. This custom of polygamy helped a great deal in bringing down the women.
Rebuttal: The Aryan invasion theory is just a myth propagated by the Indologists of the 19th Century. According to them, Dravidians were the native inhabitants of India. In around 1500 BC, the Aryans (fair looking) arrived to India from Central Asia, attacked the Dravidians and pushed them to South India. Further, the theory says that Rig Veda was created in 1200 BC and all other Vedas, Puranas, and s were subsequently written. This theory has not been proven by any valid archeological evidence. Max Mueller, the Chief architect of this theory believed, like any other Christian scholar, in the Biblical chronology and its faulty concept of the age of earth (6000 years) age of earth. Therefore, by disregarding the events mentioned in the Vedas and Puranas, they post-dated the entire history of India. For more information on the absurdities in Aryan invasion theory, view the following video video.
Kasem’s unsubstantiated claims on Aryans looting and snatching away women cannot be found in any of the four Vedas, Upanishads, and Puranas.
Kasem writes: Rig Ved 10/59 says that Lord Indra had many queens that were either defeated or killed by his principal wife.
Rebuttal: Rig Veda 10.59 contains 10 hymns, and none of them refers to any slaying of queens. Kasem…refrains from quoting the exact verse number.
Kasem writes: In ‘Aitrey Puran’, preachings of ‘Rig Veda’, (33/1), Harish Chandra is referred to have had 100 wives.
Rebuttal: Firstly, there are only 10 Chapters in Rig Veda. Hasish Chandra is one of the noblest Kings in Indian history and is the central figure of Aitareya Purana. Contrary to what Kasem writes, Harish Chandra had only one wife. To get more information on his virtuous life, refer the following link.
Kasem writes: ‘Yajur Veda’ in the context of ‘Ashva Medha’ (Horse Sacrificing ceremony) says that many wives of Harish Chandra participated in the ‘Yajna’ (religious sacrifice).
Rebuttal: Again, Kasem refrains from quoting the exact verse number…
Kasem writes: In ‘Shatpath Puran (Shatpath Brahmin)’, preachings [13/4/1/9] of the Veda, it is written that four wives do service in ‘Ashva Megha’. In another place, Puran [Tatiraity Brahamin, 3/8/4] says wives are like property.
Rebuttal: The reason why Kshatriyas (warriors) practiced polygamy is already explained above. A warrior-class woman would willingly marry someone who is strong, bold, and knows the rule of law. As mentioned before, through Vedic ceremony, Swayamvara, the bride would choose her life-partner amongst a list of suitors. Thus, by clarifying that these warrior-class marriages were not forceful, it can be concluded that Queens’ accompanying their husbands to perform religious ceremonies was a part of the Vedic life. There is not single evidence in the Vedic history to show that a noble king (Arya) married a woman without her consent.
Kasem writes: Not only one man had many wives (married and slave girls), but there were cases of many men having a joint wife. It is confirmed from the following hymn in ‘Atharva Veda’: “O men, sow a seed in this fertile women” [Atharva Veda 14/1]
Rebuttal: The concept of ‘slave girls’ existed in Saudi Arabia, Biblical times, and in Kasem’s wandering mind. Atharva Veda 14/1 has 64 hymns. They talk about the marriage ceremonies in general. However, in none of the 64 hymns do we find such irresponsible statements. Kasem’s favorite website does not list that either.
Here is a gem from Atharva Veda (14.1.64) – “Let the man offer Vedic prayers in front of her, behind her, at your centre and at her ends. By doing so, let God’s inviolable grace illuminate her home with good fortune and dignity.â€
Kasem writes: Both these customs clearly show that a women was treated like a moving property. The only difference between the two customs was that whereas according to former one man had a number of movable properties, in the latter, women a joint movable property.
Rebuttal: A lie, if repeated hundred times, will not become true.
Kasem writes: The Atharva Veda says: “O dead man following the religion and wishing to go to the husbands world, his women comes to you.”
Rebuttal: Which Chapter? Which verse? As usual, Kasem fails to quote the exact verse number in Atharva Veda.
Kasem writes: In the ‘Vedas’, widow is treated inhumanly. For example it is mentioned that on death of her husband, the wife was handed over to some other man, or to her husband younger brother.
Rebuttal: Again, all these arguments are not corroborated with any evidence from scriptures.
Kasem writes: Swami Vivekananda opines that even at that time women used to have sexual intercourse with a person other than her husband to beget a child.
Rebuttal: Kasem fails to quote any reference here. In none of Swami Vevekananda’s works do we find such statements.
Kasem writes: The hymn says: “O woman, get up and adopt the worldly life again. It is futile to lie with this dead man. Get up and become the wife of the man who is holding your hand and who loves you. [Rig Ved 10/18/8]
Rebuttal: Rig Veda (10.18.8) states exactly the opposite. The Sanskrit verse and its translation are given below.
Udeershva naaryabhi jeevalokam jagaasumetamupa shesha edi |
Hastagrabhasya didhishostavedam patyujeenitvamabhi sam babhuva ||(Rig veda 10.18.8)
Udeershva = Rise, get up ; naaryabhi = woman ; jeevalokam = living beings ; gataasum = departed, dead ; etam = this ; upashesha = lie by the side ; hastagrabhasya = took you by the hand ; didhishostavedam = enjoyed the state of being, as per Vedas ; pati = husband ; jeenitva = lived ; sam = happily ; babhuva = happened
Translation – “Rise, woman, and go to the world of living beings (sons, grandsons, relatives): Come, this man near whom you lie by the side is dead: You have happily lived to enjoy this state of being the wife of your husband, who took you by the hand.â€
Here, a widow is advised to spend the rest of her life with her children and grand children instead of grieving over her dead husband as her Karma of spending their earthly time as husband and wife is over due to his death.
Kasem writes: If the women was not remarried, then her head was shaved. This is evident from Atharva Veda (14/2/60).
Rebuttal: Atharva Veda (14.2.60) warns every householder that if a daughter weeps in a house, then it is a bad omen and that all the positive karma will burn up. Here is the exact translation of the verse: “If in your house your daughter has wept with disheveled locks, then you are committing sin as a result of her grief.â€
There is neither any mention of remarriage nor shaving head. Even the website he quoted quoted refutes his claim..
Kasem writes: The condition of widows was miserable. She was considered to be a harbinger of inauspiciousness and was not allowed to participate in ceremonies like marriage.
Rebuttal: In Mahabharata, Kunti, the widow of Pandu, lived with her sons and took part in all functions. She even was the part of the ‘Rajasooya Yajna’ that was conducted by her eldest son. Likewise, Satyavati, looked after the affairs of her kingdom under the guidance of her foster son, Bhishma. Rani Chennamma Rani Chennamma, the widow of Mallasarja Desai, remained the queen of Kittur province and fought bravely against the British in the early 19th Century. Likewise, widow Jhansi Rani Laxmi Bai, fought courageously with the British in India’s first war of independence. It seems Kasem is not well versed in Indian history at all. Let me remind him that culturally river Ganga is more accessible to him than river Thames. Considering widows as harbinger of inauspiciousness does not find any mention in the Vedas. Therefore, currently such a practice doesn’t exist at all.
Kasem writes: In Rig Veda there are references to slave girls being given in charity as gifts. After killing the men-folk of other tribes, particularly of the native inhabitants, their women were rounded up and used as slave girls. It was custom to present slave girls to one other as gifts.
Rebuttal: Kasem…doesn’t quote any reference from Indian history to buttress his claim. The four sacred Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, and the medieval history of India never profess that Hindu Kings attacked other kingdoms to take women as slave girls. I challenge Kasem to produce one reference to redeem his claim. Let him look at the code of conduct of wars mentioned in Hindu scriptures and take a final stand.
Kasem writes: The kings used to present chariots full of slave girls to their kith and kin and priests (Rig Veda 6/27/8).
Rebuttal: More mistranslations! Since the western Indologists were well-versed with the term ‘slave girls’ (found in Biblical scriptures), they translated Sanskrit words, such as ‘yosha’ (woman) and apsara (non-earthly woman), into English as ‘slave girls’. Some of the authors on this list are Keith and Pischel. Rig Veda (6/27/8) talks about the presence of damsels for a Vedic ritual such as yajna and singing.
Kasem writes: King Trasdasyu had given 50 slave girls. It was custom to present slave girls to Saubhri Kandav (Rig Veda 8/38, 5/47/6).
Rebuttal: There are 10 verses in Rig Veda 8.38. Out of these verses, only 8.38.10 has feminine names. Its translation is- “I solicit the protection of Indra and Agni, associated with Saraswati, to whom this Gayatri mantra is addressed.â€
The translation of Rig Veda 5/47/6 is – “To Him worshippers multiply praises and acts of adoration; for a son, the divine mothers weave garments of light. Rejoicing in the contact of impregnation, the wives (solar rays) of the Sun come to our presence by the path of the sky.†There is no mention of slave girls either in 8/38 or 5/47/6 of Rig Veda.
Kasem writes: A slave girl was called ‘Vadhu’ (wife), with whom sexual intercourse could be performed without any kind of marriage ceremony.
Rebuttal: The meaning of Vadhu in Sanskrit is ‘bride’ and not ‘slave girl’. Vedic scriptures strictly recommend marriage ceremony in front of fire before commencing married life. As usual, Kasem fails to provide any reference.
Kasem writes: The ‘Vedas’ also talk about ‘Niyog’, the custom of childless, widow or woman having sexual intercourse with a person other than her husband to beget a child.
Rebuttal: The Sanskrit meaning of ‘Niyog’ is application, order, command, request, or demand. The fact that Kasem is unable to quote to buttress his claim proves that he does not have first hand knowledge of the Vedas.
Kasem writes: Indication of this custom is available in ‘Rig Veda’
Rebuttal: Rig Veda does not contain any custom called ‘Niyog’. Again, he has not cited any verse from Rig Veda.
Kasem writes: In ‘Aadiparva’ of ” (chap. 95 and 103), it is mentioned that Satywati had appointed her son to bestow sons to the queens of Vichitrvirya, the younger brother of Bhishma, as a result of which Dhratrashtra and Pandu were born.
Rebuttal: In Chapter 95 of Mahabharata, Pandu kills a brahmana by mistake and is cursed by the latter before death. As a result of this curse, Pandu is unable to enjoy marital relationship with his wives. His wife, Kunti, had learnt the art of invoking Vedic deities through Mantras. Pandu knew this and solicited her to have offspring raised for him. She invoked many deities through the power of mantra. By Dharma she had Yudhishtira; by Maruta, Bhima; and by Sakra, Arjuna. And Pandu well pleased with her said- “this co-wife is also childless! Therefore, cause her also to bear children.†Kunti saying “so be it†IMPARTED unto Madri the mantra of invocation, and through this mantra Madri begot the twins Nakula and Sahadeva.
In Mahabharata, there is no mention of sexual intercourse for begetting such children. Karna was born to Kunti when she, as a young lady, invoked ‘Sun God’ through mantra. Scriptures consider that the divine spirit entered the womb of such women who recited mantras. Hundred years ago, if someone had talked about the concept of test-tube baby, he would be called a quack.
In Chapter 105 of Adi Parva, Satyavati speaks to her foster son, Bhishma, to break his oath and get married to a princess from neighboring province to raise kids for the kingdom. Her son, Vichitravirya, had died at a young age, leaving Ambika and Ambalika childless. In spite of her requests, the great Bhishma says “O mother, what you say is certainly sanctioned by virtue. I repeat that the pledge I once gave shall abide by it at the cost of renouncing three worlds, the empire, or anything that may be greater than that. In reality, I would never renounce the pledge.†In Chapter 106, Vyasa invokes mantras on Ambika and Ambalika; through divine spirit they begot Pandu and Dhritarashtra. It is to be noted that nowhere in the Chapter do we find any references on sexual intercourse of Vyasa with Ambika and Ambalika.
Kasem writes: Pandu himself has asked his wife, Kunti, to have sexual intercourse with a Brahmin to get a son [Aadi Parva, Chapters 120–23].
Rebuttal: It is true that Pandu asked his wife to beget a son through remarriage. However, Pandu is not the epitome of truth in Vedic history. Hearing Pandu’s words Kunti says (Refer Chapter 95 of Mahabharata) that she wouldn’t even think in her dream about associating herself with another man. She then soothed Pandu by telling him that she knew the art of invoking deities through mantras, through which she could bear children.
Kasem writes: In the name of ‘beejdan’ (seed donation), they used to have sexual intercourse with issueless women. This was a cruel religious custom and the chastity of the women was not safe. The so called caretakers of the religion were allowed to have sexual intercourse with other man’s wife.
Rebuttal: If anyone had practiced such a thing, then it was totally against the authentic Vedic scriptures. It is strange that Kasem does not quote from any of the four Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas – which are regarded as holy by all Hindus- to support his claims.
Kasem writes: From ‘Niyog pratha’ it can be inferred without fear of contradiction that women were looked upon as mere child producing machines.
Rebuttal: As said before, it is a challenge for ignorant Kasem to quote terms such as Sati Pratha and Niyog Pratha from the four Vedas, Upanishads, and 18 Puranas.
Kasem writes: In The Position of women in Hindu Civilization, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar writes:
“Though women is not married to man, she was considered to be a property of the entire family. But she was not getting share out of the property of her husband, only son could be successor to the property.”
Rebuttal: Ambedkar is not the final authority of Vedas and he hasn’t quoted any references to uphold his claim. He could be telling about certain customs during the last 200 years, but that does not apply to the entire history of Hinduism. Kasem fails to appreciate the number of Hindu queens who fought valiantly against the British regime in India. In Adi Parva of Mahabharata (Chapters 100-115) we can find that Bhishma offers, as a mark of respect, gold and jewelry to princesses Ambika and Ambalika before bringing them to get them married to his brothers. In any case, a woman was looked after by her father, husband, and children throughout her life. Even now, in India it is considered a sin not to look after ageing mother (and father), who in western countries end up staying emotionally starved in the age-care centers.
Kasem writes: Gajdhar Prasad Baudh says [Arya Niti Ka Bhadaphor, 5th ed., p. 14]:
“No woman of the Vedic age can be treated as pure. Vedic man could not keep even the relations brother-sister and father-daughter sacred from the oven of rape and debauchery/adultery named ‘Niyog’. Under the influence of intoxication of wine, they used to recognize neither their sister nor their daughter and also did not keep the relations with them in mind. It is evident from their debauchery and adultery what a miserable plight of women was society in then.”
Rebuttal: It can be noticed that some of the gullible Indians were made to believe in the non-Vedic terms such as Sati Pratha and Niyog Pratha, which were created to misguide the practicing Hindus, thereby opening the gate to harvest souls. The non-existence of these terms in the Vedas shows that Kasem has not done any original research.
Kasem writes: “When father had sexual intercourse with his daughter, then with the help of earth he released his semen and at that time the Righteous Devas (deities) formed this ‘Vartrashak (Rudra) Devta’ (Pledge keeper deity named Rudra)” [Atharva Veda 20/96/15].
Rebuttal: (Kasem) is said to have copied the verses from Ralph T.H Griffith’s work, which can be found in this link. Atharva Veda 20/96/15 states- “What rests by thee in borrowed form of brother, lover, or of lord, and would have destroyed the progeny,—even this will we exterminate.â€
The hymn talks about warding off any evil effects that destroy progeny.
*** End of Excerpts ***
Read “Women in Hinduism†– Part II
Raju Maliger holds a PhD and is currently working as as a Research Engineer in Canberra. His interests include studying vedic scriptures and history. He can be contacted on r.maliger AT gmail.com. The full article can be downloaded from the Docs and Slides widget on my “Links” page. The two parts are also available here: Part I and Part II.
Related Posts:
*** An open letter to Abul Kasem ***
Women in Hindu scriptures
Dear Abul Kasem,
I am writing to you in response to your “essay” on women in Hindu scriptures.
I have extensively studied the Hindu scriptures, as well as Abrahamic scriptures and the history of India and the Western countries (including their ancient religions), and from my birth as a daughter of a Christian family I have converted to Hinduism more than 3 decades ago.
I live and preach in Jagannatha Puri, the citadel of Hindu orthodoxy, and I have now many Hindu students and followers, a majority of whom have been born in traditional Indian Hindu families of very high ancestry and social position.
I feel extremely outraged by your obnoxious “essays” where you cheaply blaspheme Hindu scriptures and Hindu ideology, misquoting bad translations and reporting fake verses and texts that were originally created by their authors for the declared purpose of defaming Hinduism and Vedic scriptures, as an ideological basis for their colonialist domination and exploitation.
Of course the position of women in Hindu society was their favorite target, for two reasons:
1) they needed to show that Hinduism treated women worse than Islam, Christianity and Victorian society did – a horrible treatment indeed, as we can see from the Abrahamic “sacred scriptures” and even more importantly, from their historical records (if you “have time” and especially the courage, honesty and moral fiber to open your eyes on true history, I can send you a compendium of historical FACTS),
2) people who can be convinced to despise and mistreat their own mothers, wives and daughters will develop an unconscious tendency to despise and mistreat themselves, and will therefore be more easily controlled and bossed around by someone who poses as a strong male authority figure.
It is evident that you have gullibly and ignorantly fallen in the trap of their hoax, and so you are directly supporting their campaign by blindly propagating their poisonous propaganda.
Of course you are not the only foolish victim – you will even find many among the “Hindus” who have eagerly accepted their brainwashing “English education” and have developed the same offensive mentality, without having the courage of actually checking the original version of Hindu scriptures – something that fortunately Raju and many others are now doing.
It is now time to expose the fraud.
Macaulay planned to create a class of Christian-educated Indians and use them to uproot their own traditions: “Indian in blood and color, but English in taste, in opinion, in morals, in intellect. No Hindu who has received an English education ever remains sincerely attached to his religion.â€
In a letter to his father in 1836, Macaulay wrote, “It is my belief that if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolator among the respectable classes in Bengal thirty years hence…. I heartily rejoice in the project.”
The entire structure of academic Indology was created in Western universities for this purpose only.
After the death of H.H. Wilson, Monier-Williams became Boden Professor of Sanskrit in Oxford University where he delivered an address wherein he stated: “I must draw attention to the fact that I am only the second occupant of the Boden Chair, and that its Founder, Colonel Boden, stated most explicitly in his will (dated August 15, 1811 A.D.) that the special object of his munificent bequest was to promote the translation of Scriptures into Sanskrit; so as to enable his countrymen to proceed in the conversion of the natives of India to the Christian religion. Brahmanism must die out. When the walls of the mighty fortress of Brahmanism are encircled, undermined, and finally stormed by the soldiers of the cross, the victory of Christianity must be signal and complete.â€
These were the “religious authorities who spoke in the name of Hinduism” to prepare the “study material” you are using in evaluating Hindu scriptures.
A host of other blasphemers followed in their tracks, with the purpose of converting people not only to colonialist regime and Christianity, but in more recent times to Communism and Naxalism, or even that particular brand of “secularism” by which the Indian government misappropriates the funds offered by devotees to Hindu temples and uses them to pay airplane tickets to Mecca for huge numbers of Indian Muslims every year.
Macaulay met Max Mueller in London and convinced the East India Company to commission him a “translation” the Rig Veda into English for the above stated propaganda purposes. The Company agreed to pay the young Mueller 4 shillings for each page that was ready to print. Mueller later moved to Oxford where he translated a number of books on Eastern religion. His magnum opus was his series The Sacred Books of the East, a fifty volume work which he began editing in 1875 and of which he wrote, “…this edition of mine and the translation of the Vedas, will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of millions of souls in that country… I am sure, the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the last three thousand years. If the English man comes to see that the tree must fall, he will mind no sacrifice either of blood or of land. I would like to lay down my life, or at least lend my hand to bring about this struggle. I do not claim for the ancient Indian literature any more that I should willingly concede to the fables and traditions and songs of savage nations.â€
Mueller is also credited with the popularization of the Aryan racial theory, a totally invented instrument specifically designed for the colonialist propaganda.
Writing for the Anthropological Review in 1870, Mueller classified the human race into seven categories on an ascending scale – with the Aborigines on the lowest rung and the “Aryan” type supreme. The “Aryan” type, of course, is the white “Indo-European” i.e. British type of the colonial invaders – the type that in the “south of the world” (that is your motherland) most resembles the Arab slave traders – still probably the most ferocious racists in the world.
Although academically speaking Mueller cannot be placed in the same category as inexperienced “Indologists” such as Christian Lassen and Albrecht Weber whose Aryan race conceptions were chiefly fueled by their ardent German nationalism, Mueller’s motivations were just as diabolical. Mueller had been paid to misinterpret the Vedic literatures in order to make the Indians look, at best silly, and at worst, bestial.
These fake translations and even fake verses (which as demonstrated by Raju are not to be found anywhere in genuine Vedic scriptures) are still able to perpetuate the myth of “obnoxiousness of Hinduism” through gullible and ignorant people like yourself.
It does not matter whether you are the direct source of such defamation, or you merely quote others: you still are an offender, and you need to make a PUBLIC APOLOGY for such gratuitous offenses.
The only “religion” that is misogynist in nature is Abrahamism, in its three sects Hebraism, Christianity and Islam, where no powerful female figure is allowed to be contemplated by the devotees.
At most, the examples of women offered by such ideologies are very submissive, self-effacing, fatalistically suffering women whose feminine power and even feminine form are suppressed in all possible ways.
On the contrary, Hinduism still worships THE POWERFUL FEMININE NATURE in the form of Mother Durga, Kali, etc.
And this is also the greatest power of the ANCIENT RELIGIONS, where the Mother Goddess was the center of devotion and worship, before the Abrahamic misogynists came to take over, with war, destruction, rape, slavery and torture.
You only need to read the OFFICIAL BIBLE WRITTEN AND TRANSLATED BY THE ACTUAL RELIGIOUS AUTHORITIES OF CHRISTIANITY to find out the facts.
My sincere and affectionate invitation to you and your readers is to get GENUINE information on Hindu scriptures before you venture to speak or write about them.
We are ready to help.
PKD
Gauri Mata Parama Karuna Devi
To the internet surfer casually clicking on the article by Soma Sablok called “Women in the Vedas†, the Vedic tradition (more latterly known as Hinduism) would appear to be no more than a barbaric cult and ideology which degrades and oppresses women. To the Hindu woman Soma’s arguments about the maltreatment in Hindu society may/may not resonate with some if not all of her experiences/impressions of being a woman in Indian society . To the conscious Hindu Sablok’s article would be as a red rag to a bull ( as indeed, it has been , if some of the posts from Hindus are anything to go by).
It is not necessary to defend the position of women as portrayed in the Vedas or their treatment in Hindu society. We know that women are favourably commented upon in the Vedas. In contrast to the few negative verses Soma Sablok parades gleefully in her article , the Vedas abound in positive references to women and their most necessary place in society. Many respected philosophers and writers outside of the Hindu tradition have prominently alluded to such. We know that they were rishis and sages in their own right and the role the woman played both in marriage and in the family was a highly honourable one.
What we should address however is the intention behind the article. Who was/is the author? What were his sources? What impact was he hoping for? We discover that the article was written by one Abu Kasem eight years ago. Now Abu Kasem runs a website called Islam Watch . Islam Watch was set up by apostate Muslims and moderate Muslims to address the inconsistencies and operational impact of the Islamic religion.. We need to ask the question therefore as to why Kasem felt impelled to reprint this article attacking and denigrating Hindu Dharma on a website dedicated to the discussion and scrutiny of the shortcomings of Islam.
I am no Vedic or Sanskrit scholar and so would not even attempt to challenge his quotations. I could comment however on the crude and vulgar language used to transcribe certain Vedic sayings . They read as having been wrought by Kasem in such a way as to deliberately transmit a belittling impression of the Vedas to his general readership. When challenged by Hindu readers as to his sources Kasem directs them to sites where such translations are no longer accessible. His response most certainly underlines the dubiousness of his intentions if not his outright hostility and contempt of the faith of the Kaffirs. This posturing is a familiar one amongst strident Muslims yet we are surprised that such an attitude still lingers within the heart of a self proclaimed apostate.. This begs the question as to why Kasem ( who drums his chest and loudly proclaims his apostasy against Islam) chose to reprint this article on his website and why now? Is it a matter of taking the Muslim out of Islam but not being able to take Islam out of the apostate. It goes to show how deeply engrained and highly effective brainwashing can be.
My advice to Hindu readers. Do not waste time and energy refuting a poorly written and scurrilous article from someone who was a follower of an ideology which historically has wreaked and continues to wreak vicious, bigoted and murderous havoc within Indian society. Please put your energies to better use-develop Hindu values in your life, expand your true kshatriya spirit, work for the protection of Hindu Dharma and ultimately for the protection and survival of human society.
Here is one more. And seems he took time out specially for demeaning the women of Hiduism. They cannot digest good of Hinduism.
http://www.geocities.com/~abdulwahid/hinduism/hindu_women.html
Yes, I agree with Ramkumari we must not waste time reading such on net. And it was the question in every Hindu’s mind What is right and wrong? Which is answered.
Thanks to Raju Maliger and Parama Karunaji.
Post by Abul Kasem was definitely to show Hinduism in bad taste without any research on his side.
True! One can see the letters of Max Mueller on the below link. He is the one responsible for bringing in Aryan theory, fooling the public of India, that all that good on the soil of India is because of Aryans came to India.
http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/35_max_muller.htm
Dear Ramkumari,
Namaste! When I came across Abul Kasem’s article a month ago, I knew that he had quoted fabricated verses and decided not to bother about it. However, when I visited the website where it was published, I found that the comments on Hinduism were worse than one could ever imagine. There are many non-Hindus on such forums and they do not know anything about our scriptures. They will be fooled to believe in whatever Kasem-like authors write. Therefore, I decided to publish a rebuttal to Kasem’s article. PKD Mataji has written a wonderful open letter to Kasem. I am sure his reputation is at stake. This is evident from the fact that in the email he had written to me he looked confused and frustrated. I feel we must not keep quiet when someone writes abnoxious stuff on Hinduism. A gullible Hindu may be duped to believe in such things and may quit Hinduism altogether. I feel writing rebuttals will encourage more people to fight such adharmic forces.
Satyameva Jayate,
R Maliger
Thanks for this excellent rebuttal. It is attrocious to see such blasphemous stuff being written about Hinduism. Our Vedas, Puranas and Epics are filled with numerous stories about how well respected women were in our anciety society. You may have covered a few of them already, but I am just jotting down a few stories from our epics that reflect the high status our civilization has always accorded to women (child marriage, sati, etc were all evils introduced to our society as a direct result of the Islamic invasion of India).
I can bring out exact references for the below but most of them are well known anyway.
Ramayana
========
– Rama goes to exile just to fulfill the wish of his (step)mother Kaikeyi
– Urmila, the wife of Lakshmana is excused from accompanying her husband to the forest because she was too young to be put through the difficulties of forest life
– Shoorpanakhi, even though a Rakshasi, is spared from being killed even when she physically attacks Sita because she is a woman
– Lakshmana, when made to examine jewellery recovered, can recognize only the toe ring of Sita. He says he can easily recognize it as he has seen the same everyday when saluting at the feet of Sita. It was a custom in those days for younger men to salute elder women (mother, older sister, sisters-in-law, etc)
– The entire Shabari episode highlights the respect accorded to women
Mahabharata
===========
– Amba refuses to marry Vichitravirya as she likes the King of Salva. She is not forced to marry him and is in fact sent back with due respect to get married to her loved one. Quite unlike few other religions we know!
– Draupadi was born as a result of a Maha Yagna done by Drupada and he specifically desired a girl child too
– In the Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, Sri Madhvacharya has mentioned that the father of Madri did a great penance specifically desiring a daughter. Clearly, the accusation that girl children were undesired in olden days is untrue
– Krishna goes to Vidura’s house when he arrives in Hastinapura for peace-making. He does not go even to Bhishma’s house and questions them why they remained silent when Draupadi was being insulted. Krishna sanctions Bhima’s stepping on Duryodhana’s face during the final war saying a person who used obscene words against Draupadi deserves no mercy. These actions clearly highlight the great respect for women in the Kuru family and consequently the gravity of the sin committed by Duryodhana and others.
I am sure the above list is just a small fraction of numerous other incidents we can bring out that clearly reflect the true (and high) position of women in ancient Hindu civilization.
Thanks again for this very accurate rebuttal.
Regards, Hari
What is being said of Max Mueller on the Authentic hinduism website may be true.
But just to quote another page from the Authentic Hinduism website which is being used as reference in this article:
On this earth planet, Bhagwan Ram was about 18 million years ago and Bhagwan Krishn was about 5,000 years ago.
The most reliable reaffirmations of the authenticity of the unbroken continuity of the Hindu civilization of 1,900 million years from the period of the first Manu to the period of Krishn, are the commentaries on the Bhagwatam by the great Masters and the acharyas that reconfirm every statement of the Bhagwatam. The Bhagwatam explains the entire procedure of the creation of the universe and the brahmandas (governed by Brahma) and tells the entire history since the creation of this brahmand, from 155.52 trillion years ago and up to the period of Krishn. A major part of the Bhagwatam contains the descriptions of the prime events of the last 1,900 million years.
18 million years and 155.52 trillion years!!! I have little trouble buying a lot of stuff from that website. A gullible hindu may be duped into believing into this also. Good luck guys.
Hello Hindu Atheist, if you are preoccupied with Darwin’s theory of evolution, then please read the book “Forbidden archeology: The hidden history of the human race”. There is a systematic proof for all your doubts.
Idea of Creationism or Intelligent design has been beaten to death and has no place in scientific community. Be it the Ben Stein kind (Christian), Harun Yahya or Adnan Oktar kind (Islamic) or the Cremo kind (Iskon) way. I just hope readers of this blog don’t seriously buy 155.52 trillion years as the age of the earth based on scientific enquiry. You cannot conclude universe is 155.52 trillion yrs old because Bhagawatam says so!!
Anyways, this topic is irrelevant to this thread. Only reason I posted this because I thought readers should be aware of other posts from the “Authentic Hinduism” website (since it was quote a couple of times).
You read. You decide. To each his own.
Tremendous article by Raju Maliger – I am in awe of his scholarship!
But, I have one question: how does one know which text is genuine and which is not? Since, the “original” texts, as written by the rishis, do not exist, do they?
Same question applies to the various versions of Ramayana, I guess – the major ones (Valmiki, Tulsidas, and the tamil version – have forgotten the poet’s name, sorry) have significant differences, don’t they?
Thanks
That many Indians in our country need to be told about the ‘inherent’ liberalism of Indian philosophy is proof of subjugation.
I use the word ‘inherent’ in the sentence above with a sweet doubt. Sweet it is; for the philosophy doesn’t preach or enforce. It lives liberalism; it is an assortment of differing thoughts and attitudes and it tells us to adopt either or none; or to make our own.
Thanks Shantanu. Excellent Article. Keep posting such ones!
Hi Shanthanu,
Thanks for a brilliant article. Thanks to Raju Malinger as well.
“Raju Maliger holds a PhD and is currently working as as a Research Engineer in Canberra. His interests include studying vedic scriptures and history.”
I remember a post on your blog about historyforkids.com and its rants on Aryan Rama invaded Dravidians and monekys story. And if I am not wrong the lady incharge of the site asked for PhD references to ascertain that this view was wrong. As far as I know all your and our attempts were in vain. Can we take Mr. Malinger’s help in this i.e., if his PhD is in this area?
Was Draupadi ever Disrobbed?
-This enduring picture of horror and humiliation of a woman is undoubtedly one of the most shameful acts narrated by the epic full of shameful acts committed by men on other men, women and children, and has become one of the central images of the Mahabharata. It is difficult to imagine the epic without that haunting scene. Imagining the Mahabharata without the stripping of Draupadi is like imagining the Ramayana without Rama’s exile to the forest, without Sita’s agni-pravesha.
And yet in a recent posting on the online Mahabharata Study Group [a Yahoo! Group moderated by Dr A Harindranath], reputed Mahabharata scholar Pradip Bhattacharya, IAS, contends that the disrobing perhaps never took place, that it was perhaps not a part of the original text of the Mahabharata, that it was a later addition to the epic.
In support of his stand Mr Bhattacharya points out that in the Udyoga Parva of the Mahabharata while both Drauapdi and Krishna refer to her appeal to him from the Dice Hall, neither of them mentions the stripping.Below link has cited refrences.
http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/094.htm
The Shiva PurÄna (III.19.63-66) presents a later concoction regarding the episode: the stream of garments was the result of a boon given, once again, by DurvÄsÄ because DraupadÄ« had torn a portion of her garment to cover the sage when his loin-cloth was carried away in the GañgÄ.[6] Satya Chaitanya[7] has pointed out that the Jaiminiya Ashvamedhaparva, again a late work (c. 10th century A.D.), carries a reference to the disrobing: Link has cited refrences: http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/134.htm
Mahabharat war happened because of Adharama was practised by Kauravas. Sri Krishna is respected because he is the one who wanted to establish Dharama. If we pick practising free culture in the name of ancient scripture than doesnot seems true now but it was one of the reasons for Mahabharat War.
I was surprised when someone was arguing that though Draupadi is refered as the wife of five husbands, infact she was committed to only Yudhisteer. May be– Interpolated– for adding more flavour in it.
All: Thanks for sharing your thoughts…
***
@ Hindu Atheist: You are right…Idea of creationism has been beaten to death…but I feel it is somewhat arrogant of rational thinkers to claim that we now have an answer to everything…(I am not saying you say/claim that but many in the scientific community think and believe so)
***
@ Patriot: Good point. Perhaps Raju or someone else will help us. Although quite a few *original* texts do exist (e.g. the RigVedas which have recently been put on the Heritage list – if I remember correctly)
***
@ Vivek: As far as I know Raju’s PhD is not in History (sadly).
Hindu Atheist, I have read Cremo’s book “Forbidden archeology”. Have you taken enough time to read a section called ‘Accepted Evidences’? We cannot cry foul because it goes against our wishes. The time frame of the theory of evolution is horrible wrong. Western scientists say there was no civilization worth mentioning 5000 yrs ago. Sphinx has been proven to be 10,000 years old by a Florida University Professor in metallurgy. The apologetics, instead of debunking his proof, hurled tantrums against him. They say, Rig Veda was written in 1200 BC. Refer to the following website maintained by Dr Balakrishna, who is a Consultant for NASA and my tutor in Vedic astronomy. http://www.vedicastronomy.net/mahabharatha.htm ; He has given the astronomical positions of the planets and stars during the two ecclipses of Mahabharat war. He has then compared them with the quotes of Aryabhata and others. It is pointing to 3129 BC. Now, what happened to 1200 BC? Are you able to refute it or accept it as a gospel of truth because it was told by some Supreme Europeans? Or is there any scholar who can refute Balakrishna’s astronomical findings? Yes, there are some coward scholars that say Indian astronomers backdated some events just for the heck of doing it. They want us to believe that without telescopes and LodeStar software Indian sages did it. They say this because they want to stick to their earlier belief that Indians learnt astronomy from Greeks!
Who says Hindu scriptures do not mention about facts supporting evolution. Refer to the last section (Yuddhakanda) of Ramayana. Valmiki mentions vanara sena of seeing elephants with four tusks. We don’t see elephants with four tusks anywhere in the world. These four-tusked elephants in fact existed millions of years ago which corresponds to 23rd Mahayuga of this Manvantara. If that is the case, then there shouldn’t have been human beings to record such a thing. Or do you say, Hindus back-calculated this to fit Indians in that age? All I say is that the timescale of evolution is horribly wrong. Alternative theories such as existence of macro and micro evolution to correct discrepancies in Darwin’s theory are coming up.
Not everything that is stated by authentichinduism website is correct. Here is what Carl Sagan, the famous American astronomer says about our scriptures: • The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. “Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang”. And there are much longer time scales still.—— I have reserved this topic for my next article. Our mind needs elasticity to come to conclusion.
Finally, read Srikanth Talageri’s masterpiece: Rigveda and the Avesta: The Final Evidence. Many do not know that this book has knocked off Aryan invasion theory for good. Witzel, the Dean of Sanskrit dept at Harvard, lost his debate with Talageri on the dates mentioned in Rig Veda. One finding takes you back to 6000 BC; there are much more beyond that! Well friend many information that we get are screened. Let us be open to ideas.
RM
Hello Patriot, the Sanskrit scriptures were put into writing 5000 yrs ago, and definitely the original manuscripts do not exist.I follow three steps in ascertaining whether the quoted texts are factual or not.
1. Compare the quoted verses with the ones you possess. You may approach spiritual heads of different mathas in India or abroad.
2. The next important thing is to check the grammar of the verses. For example, in the fabricated Yajurveda 23/20 it is written ‘retau retaudha dadhaatu’, which is grammatically wrong in all aspects. The 19th century Indologists failed miserably in structuring Sanskrit sentences. I can quote n number of examples like that. Moreover, we should look for flow of the sentence. If by chance the flow is diverted, then we should smell the doctored verses. Doctored verse in Yajurveda 6/5/8/2 is an example where the flow of sentence suddenly changes in the last sentence to give a different meaning.
3. When fabrication is confirmed, it is essential to crosscheck with all available sources, including the one you have. If many of them have reproduced the same doctored verses, it means that they are the genetic replica of the Indologist’s work and hence they have to be discarded. In the remaining works, if the words differ but give a similar meaning, then we can choose the verse with the correct grammatical structure.
I hope it helps,
R Maliger
Dear RBM,
Thanks for your responses. Couple of things to consider:
1. Grammar evolves over a period of time – this is true of all “modern” languages. I do not know if this is true of Sanskrit as well or not, but worth considering.
2. Here is a joke, with a kernel of truth at its heart, which symbolises my dilemma with religious texts:
A monastery gets a new recruit, who is given the task of copying out religious texts held in the monastery so that they can be preserved for future generations. The new monk notices that he is making a copy from a copy and so he goes to the head monk and asks him “Brother, I am making a copy from a copy, how do I know that the text in the copy is correct?” So, the head says “This has been our tradition, and while we have the originals stored away in the vault, we do not use them to copy as they may get destroyed due to accidents” “But, brother, how do you know that the copy is faithful to the original?”
So, the head monk listens to his newest intern, and goes to check the vault ….. hours pass, he does not return ….. after 12 hours, the new monk gets worried and goes to the vault to check on the head monk ….. he finds him sitting in the vault, and crying copiously. On seeing the new monk, he mourns “The word was celebrate …….”
: )
Cheers
Dear RBM,
One other point – why is the timescale of evolution so wrong?
I have been reading various articles, which have been published or re-published on Charles Darwin’s anniversary and no where do I find any mention of 5,000 years of human civilisation.
The timescale of evolution from a primordial pool to homo sapiens is millions of years, and carbon dating supports a lot of this theory. Recent advances in genetic sampling and the decoding of various genomes also go a long way in supporting all the main parts of Darwin’s theory – which is astounding, if you think about it.
If some “western historian” says that human civilisation can only be dated back to 5,000 years, then we should get him to read Charles Darwin and various other scientific authors who can prove that is wrong and then we can all laugh at his thesis – anyway, I do not think any serious historian of today makes that claim, do they? This was all part of the roman/western imperial agenda?
At the same time, one can hold a lot of hindu scriptures to be allegorical, similar to old greek scriptures – if you take everything written at face value, then dialogue becomes more difficult in the modern world.
@Shantanu:
As a rationalist or one of scientific temper, I do not make the claim that I know everything – but, just because I do not know everything about the universe is no reason to accept religious views about the universe, either. If you get the distinction I am making.
The other point to consider is this: scientific/rational thought is constantly evolving and is peer reviewed. Religious thoughts/scriptures is at a standstill (and has been so for at least 2000 years) and usually refuses to be peer reviewed. That is a critical difference.
Cheers
Dear Patriot,
I shall clear your thoughts about Sanskrit grammar. Panini composed the rules for grammar in Kaliyuga by also including all that existed prior to his era. From Panini till now, nobody has taken up the task of modifying Sanskrit grammar further.
R Maliger
Response to comment #19: The timescale of evolution is wrong because Darwin’s theory assumes homo sapiens came into existence only in the last 1,50,000 yrs ago. However, archeological evidence have proven that homo sapiens have existed prior to that. That is why I told many to read “Forbidden archeology” with an open mind. The author hasn’t talked about creation theory at all. Rather he has given valid scientific proof to show where Darwin’s theory is failing. Due to known inconsistencies, alternative theories such as macro evolution and micro evolution came up. However, based on Darwin’s theory, western thinkers took it further and said man civilized only the last 7000 yrs ago. Name any civilization as per western thinkers that existed prior to 5000 BC? None! I gave a scientific proof for Mahabharata war in comment #16. It happened in 3129 BC. If you can’t prove me wrong, then assume the time taken to develop the science of observing planetary motions without the know-how of telescopes or softwares. Sages have quoted ample number of times that they did it using Yoga. To many it may sound bogus. Hey facts are sacred, aren’t they? It is the result that matters. Next read Srikanth Talageri’s book on Rig Veda. He has proven some verses were composed in around 6000 BC. Witzel lost the battle on Aryan invasion theory. If you find some time please read the debate between Srikanth Talageri and Witzel, the Dean of Sanskrit dept at Harward.
Sorry Shantanu, I have diverted from the topic being discussed at least few times.
To Hindu atheist: Watch this video from Carl Sagan, one of the greatest astrophysicist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSttXt_AME
Dear RBM,
I have not read “The Forbidden Archeology” – I will see if I can find the book in my library or book stores. If this is not a crackpot theory like the various intelligent design ones, I am sure the scientific community would have taken it up.
RE: Darwin – his timelines are not set in stone (I am not specifically aware of the number you quote) – his theory was proposed over 100 years ago, based on the evidence he had collected and then extrapolated. So, the time line can be revised and is being revised as more evidence comes to light. Do keep in mind that homo sapiens is the latest in a long line of homo species …. so getting bogged down on exact time lines is not very useful.
There are quite a few unexplained areas in Darwin’s theory – most notably, why does evolution stop within a species at various points in time – is there a kill switch? But, the inability of Darwin’s theory to answer this specific question does not render the rest of the theory null and void. Some other biologist will supply the answer, maybe in 10 years, maybe in another 100 years.
Similar was the case with the theory of light particles – Newton propounded the first theory, which has been proven wrong by 50%, as we speak today – but, he laid the foundation, which is still valid, and which was improved by various physicists until Einstein came up with the dual theory, which is now the standard theory while dealing with light.
The point is that scientists constantly re-validate their theories and do not go into a snit, because someone proposes something that is drastically different.
If you follow the work that is being done in quantum physics, you will know that our knowledge of our universe increases, both incrementally and in spurts – some of which overturns previously accepted theories. But, you do not have wars over that! : )
And, I have no problems with anyone who suggests that someone in India wrote some poems or philosophy in 6000 BC – the whole field of cultural archaeology is a minefield, in my opinion, with various groups vigorously defending their positions.
Personally, I do not care. So, I am not going to debate on that part of the topic.
I would like to correspond with you offline sometimes, too, RBM, if you would be kind enough to share your email ID with me.
Cheers
“However, based on Darwin’s theory, western thinkers took it further and said man civilized only the last 7000 yrs ago. Name any civilization as per western thinkers that existed prior to 5000 BC?”
First, I do not know which western “thinker” extended Darwin’s theory to say whatever he did …. I am not defending him ….. and, here is the point, philosophers and cultural programmers can say whatever they want – other people of the same ilk can then debate with them. I am not really interested in this debate.
You think hindu civilisation existed for 50,000 years – fine. That is your belief and you can defend it with others who think it existed only 2000 years. Personally, I do not care either way.
I only care about the India of today and what progress we are making today.
Second, the point I am making about science is that it makes documented, peer-reviewed deductions, which it then further reviews in the light of new evidence. And, I “believe” in that. Not religious scriptures, which refuse to be held up to peer-review or evidence. I am making a very limited, personal point here.
Cheers
RBM,
Let’s be clear. We are not discussing about: When/if Mahabharata happened or if “westerners” accept civilizations before 5000 yrs or even Aryan theory.
We are talking about trillions of years as age of universe and millins of years as when homo sapiens appeared. We probably agree that 5000 or 10000 yrs is nothing on the scale of evolution.
These four-tusked elephants in fact existed millions of years ago which corresponds to 23rd Mahayuga of this Manvantara. If that is the case, then there shouldn’t have been human beings to record such a thing.
It is valid objection if timescale of evolution is wrong. But you need to offer some other workable explanation. Mention of four-tusked elephants in a book.. is this the proof for claiming that humans existed millions of years ago? I just want to understand better, don’t misunderstand me.
If you can’t prove me wrong, then assume the time taken to develop the science of observing planetary motions without the know-how of telescopes or softwares. Sages have quoted ample number of times that they did it using Yoga.
Are you suggesting that using Yoga you can achieve the measurement precision of modern physics and cosmology?
About Carl Sagan, you missed one word he used when he said those things: “No doubt by accident”. Watch the video here which has the exact words you mentioned including “no doubt by accident”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWSttXt_AME
Patriot,
As a rationalist or one of scientific temper, I do not make the claim that I know everything – but, just because I do not know everything about the universe is no reason to accept religious views about the universe, either. If you get the distinction I am making.
The other point to consider is this: scientific/rational thought is constantly evolving and is peer reviewed. Religious thoughts/scriptures is at a standstill (and has been so for at least 2000 years) and usually refuses to be peer reviewed. That is a critical difference.
You stole the words right out of my mouth. I completely agree with what patriot said about having a open-minded rationalistic approach. IMHO, we have barely begun to unravel the secrets around us. Barely. We humans need to support more rational thought, continue the scientific exploration (without east/west/north/south bias) and continuously challenge our understanding.
Again, you are free to believe what you want to believe. To each his own. This grand universe around us doesn’t care what we (one form of life on a tiny rock suspended in the middle of nowhere) think anyways. 🙂
Many many heartiest thanks to Shantanu, and Raju Maliger.
It is very important to counter cheats who conspire and plan to demean us, and spread lies.
Patriot,
I do not know Sanskrit at all, but want to share whatever little I know.
In TV programs on Veda and Upanishad (Sanskara etc) run by Patanjali Yogpeeth (of Swami Ramdev), one scholar Acharya Satyananda Vedavaagish once told that there are 18 reasons why study of Grammar (Sanskrit grammar) is told to be important (that mantra is in one of Ashtadyayi or Mahabhashya) – one of them is Raksha. He told that meaning of Raksha here is Raksha of Veda.
I not very sure, and don’t remember the source too, but I think I read that the Sanskrit grammar rules are so well laid out and scientific that a person from Vedic period may still be understood by a person of present times, if he properly studies the Sanskrit grammar, and the same applies otherwise too.
I have very poor knowledge on this matter, but as I have come to understand that the Veda are actually protected by their structure, and grammar. However still parts of Veda have been lost, in various attacks on India, and rules by Mughals and Britishers.
Dear Dr. Raju,
With reference to your rebuttal regarding Niyog, I had a slightly different perception. From my (limited) understanding, even if it existed, Niyog gave equal rights to the woman in the family to bear children from men outside of their families and keep the family going.
If we look at the story behind the birth of Dhritarashtra and Pandu, they were also born from Ved Vyasa. And Ved Vyasa was born of Satyawati and Rishi Parashar, prior to Satyawati marrying Raja Shantanu (either thru pre-marital sex or thru Rishi’s blessings, which is a separate topic of debate). It was considered perfectly legal which may be totally illegal/illegitimate in today’s scenario in any society.
Kunti’s story also falls on the similar lines. She gave birth to children only from whom she wanted and liked to bear them. Nobody could force her, including her beloved husband.
Let me know your thoughts on this and correct my understanding if it is wrong.
Thanks for such a wonderful compilation.
Dear Vikram:
I do not think languages are so rigid, over a period of time – maybe Sanskrit is an exception.
Meanings of words change, usage of words evolves, the context changes the meaning of words, rules of grammar change – this is true of all living languages, and while Sanskrit is probably less living currently, it used to be a vibrant language at one point in time.
RBM has an interesting view that Panini collated all the previous changes and codified the rules of Sanskrit and these have not changed since then, which in turn begs the questions:
1. Do we have an “authentic copy” of his grammar rules and dictionary? Is this supported by evidence?
2. When (time) did Panini actually codify the language? Do we have evidence of this?
3. How do we know that Panini actually codified the language properly and he did not introduce his own distortions while understanding the words/language of the vedic era?
So, as Hinduatheist says, when you approach things with an open mind, lots of interesting questions can pop up.
Cheers
Dear RBM:
Maybe, you would also take a look at the authenticity, or otherwise, of these pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81%E1%B9%87ini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit
Thanks
And, here is something for all those who claim that hindu brahmarishis knew it all!
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html?full=true
Archeological evidence dating a civilisation to 7000 BC. Found by a French archeologist in 1974.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh
Dear RBM:
A question regarding 3129 BC as the “signature” date for the Mahabharata:
I went through the link that you provided. Based on his analysis, Dr Balakrishna comes up with three plausible dates – the latest of which is c. 1350 BC.
However, he seems to go for the 3129 BC date, based upon a quotation written by Aryabhatta, where he says that the Kaliyuga started on a particular date. Two problems with this:
1. This is just an assertion by a person, a noted person no doubt, but still just his assertion
2. I am unable to link this directly with Mahabharata – wasn’t the Kaliyugya supposed to start after the ninth avatar, which hinduism claims is Mahavira?
Also, there are umpteen references to horses and chariots in the war – OTOH, the IVC excavation has yielded no remnants of horses or chariots.
Would that not imply that the IVC actually pre-dates the Mahabharata?
Never realised how important horses are to history!
Cheers
Thanks. i thank all U rishi.You are so clear of your subjects and so well versed in explations that I read u ppl with great interest and cruisity.You are too big for me.I got many bits of wisdome from you. my lot of respects for Raju Maliger,Patriot,Ram kumari ji,and great RBM oh yes even that Hindu Athiest.
I stumbled to read many articles of Abul Kasem in islammonitor.org.I had agreat regar for him also as he has exposed very forcfully the Islam,Kuran,jehad,Mohmd and hadiths.
But in case of Hinduism he has fallen flat and weak Probably He borrowed th falts on hinduism.He has no knowledge of his own on Hinduism.Hinduism is very old, philosofic,Metaphysical sometimes micro sometimes macro having many matrixes.Not only one but many Kasems will be disolved in it. There are six schools of thoughts in it.
Lesson: one should not jump into an area whose knoweledge one hasn’t.I think he is simply quoting or copying britishers and communists propaganda. But i still hold him a great maN DARING TO CHALLENG THE TRUTH OF ISLAM,kuran and jehad.
Shabdika student of Msc Phy.
All: Thanks for contributing…This is turning out to be a very interesting discussion…I shall respond with my comments soon …have been pre-occupied at work (and with the bloggers’ rights issue).
We can all discuss about selected readings or mis-interpretations of scriptures is maligning someone’s faith (in this case it is Hinduism). The real question is what are doing about Woman in Hinduism now? (I am not suggesting that nothing is being done).
Here is a sample:
http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/6.html
She went ahead to say, “Monthly periods, is a natural phenomenon in women, therefore it is blind-faith to avoid going in temples during this time”.
In this period, women become Raja predominant due to which, if they visit a temple, its sattva quality can be affected. This is main reason for asking women to avoid going to any temple or sattva predominant place during their periods. Mrs. Oak should first study Hindu spirituality with an open mind and only then comment!
While it is important to correct distortions (on islamwatch), but it is far more important to question when current irrational behavior is supported by vague theories of Rajas or Sattva in our own backyard (!!). I don’t know how many people here would support the idea of why woman should not visit temples because of Rajas predominance. IMHO, any usage of spiritual jargon to justify something like this is unacceptable. Trust me, gullible hindus will fall for this.
Again: You read, you decide.
## Comment 23: I open to analysing all things before accepting them as facts or myths. The biggest failure of Darwin’s theory of evolution, since its conception 150 yrs ago, is that there is a total absence of fossils linking the Miocene apes such as Dryopithecus with the Pliocene ancestors of modern apes and humans. This is despite the finest efforts of archeologists.
## Comment 25: If you see the archeological records, four tusked elephants did exist approximately 22-25 million yrs ago. Shastras state that Sri Rama appeared in the 23rd Mahayuga of this Manvantara. Yuddhakanda section of Valmiki Ramayana in fact state that there were four-tusked elephants in Lanka. There are two possibilities here: a)Either Hindu sages backdated Ramayana to many millions of years ago expecting that there were four-tusked elephants during that time, or b) Darwin’s theory is not accurate in its present form (see response to comment #25) and so scientific world is considering macro and micro evolution, or c) Darwin’t theory is the quintescence of truth and cannot be challenged. Like the adherants of Bible and Quran, we must accept Darwin’s theory!– yes Carl Sagan said it is by coincidence. The methods of approaching a problem by sages and westerners could be different, but are almost arriving at the same conclusion. May be he is surprised about the method of Rishis he had never thought of. If something is a coincidence, there must be a method to unravel how it was calculated. If the sages credited yoga for that, then it is hard to disprove it either. Well we have results to look into rather than the method.
## Comment 28: About Panini– According to modern historians Panini lived in the 4th Century BC. His Ashtadhyayi is a celebrated book with 3959 sutras. MOST IMPORTANTLY, right from then till now, there has been only one edition of that book. He was born in current Pakistan. He was a very ordinary person ridiculed by people. He wrote Ashtadhyayi after returning from Himalayas. In the very first verse he offers salutes to Lord Shiva for blessing him with knowledge. Unfortunately we don’t possess any original manuscript of his work. I am not aware of any other scholar after Panini undertaking a Bhashya work on sanskrit grammar. If Panini’s work was modified in the last 2500 yrs, then we should have had many versions of it. Sanskrit grammar did not undergo evolution in the last 2500 yrs. We still use the same Panini’s grammar that was written 2500 yrs ago!
# Comment 32: Mahavir is not an incarnation of Vishnu as per Hinduism. The author of vedicastronomy.net explains why he chose 3129 over other dates. It is essential to consider references from Aryabhateeyam, Nepal Hindu school, Chalukya King of Badami etc. They all state Kaliyuga started about 5110 yrs ago. Therefore, we cannot neglect the works of other Indian scholars while arriving at this date. Other proofs: http://www.encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/51_the_bhartiya_chronology.htm ; I have given you astronomical, astrological, and other proofs. If they all coincide, then you must accept it as a fact; If Harappan excavation has not yielded any skeletons of horse, how does that conclude that horses didn’t exist elsewhere in India? Read Srikanth Talageri’s book on Rig Veda where he proves some verses were composed in 6000 BC. Then Rig veda mentions about horses. What then you conclude from that? Harappan civilization is a part of Indian civilization because of the presence of bangles, Shiva deity, and host of other materials common to Hindu world. Have you read about findings from Bet Dwaraka, that which is submerged in ocean now?
Dear RBM:
1. Darwin – non-discovery of a range of fossils does not *necessarily* negate this theory. Please read up on the latest genome research. Genome research is validating most parts of Darwin’s theory.
2. Never heard of four-tusked elephants existing in reality – pls provide links/data to substantiate this. A mention in Ramayana is not good enough.
3. Panini – you missed the critical part of my question – how do we know that Panini himself did not distort various meanings and rules while composing his book of grammar?
4. Mahavira – well, this is what is *commonly* taught. Maybe, that is a mistake. How about Gautama Buddha? Is he an avatar?
5. Horses – since the great war of Mahabharata was fought in the northern plains, in probably current Pakistan, the absence of horses and chariots in the IVC is a big dampener to your time line. Harappan civilisation existed in the first millenium BC and co-incides with the timing proposed for vedas by most archeologists.
Anyway, this is my last comment on when the vedas were actually written – does it really matter if it was written in 2000 BC or 6000 BC? or even 50,000 BC. There are people who claim that the hindu civilisation pre-dates earth! So, to each his own.
Cheers
http://www.mcremo.com/writing.html
You expect scientists to take this chap seriously? And, when like Watson, he can not differentiate between improbable and impossible!!
A Vedic alternative to evolution? Puhlease.
Hello all,
Few things to consider:
1. Hindu cosmology is cyclical in nature. The weekdays are cyclical in nature, so are months- from Jan to Dec. When it comes to years we go in linear direction. The shastras tell we will come back at it. This is difficult to accept considering the longevity of the time scale. What about the manifest and unmanifest forms spoken in Gita?
2. The western thinking is based on Biblical chronology. God created the world in 7 days; people will live here for some time, then there will be judgement day. People are either sent to hell or heaven. When Big Bang theory was formed, it was said Universe exploded from a single point and it keeps on expanding. The thinking was linear in nature without any doubt. Some people asked “how long it is going to expand”? Then Einstein suggested a factor called ‘Cosmological constant’ of the universe. But many ridiculed him and further discussions were curtailed in early 1920s. New researches, as late as Jan 2009, indicate that universe expands as long as it is within the limit of the cosmological constant. Once it reaches that constant, it starts to collapse to reach to a point of infinite gravity and then expands. When something falls to infinite gravity, matter does not exist. Hindu Rishis called this destruction during which the souls reside in the nabhi of Paramatma. During expansation matter is recreated; Shastras called it creation. Don’t we see in Gita Sri Krishna talking about manifest and unmanifest nature?
Regards,
RMaliger
#38 Dear Patriot
1. Non-discovery doesn’t necessarily negate it, but it cannot confirm the validity of this theory. It will still remain a theory nontheless. 150 yrs is way too long! It will remain a theory unless you provide those links.
2. I had read it long time ago during my course in Masters degree; will provide reference in my next article
3. Panini: Have you studied the grammar used in Vedas, Puranas, Brahmasutras, and Upanishads, and then compared with Panini’s grammar book? If you do, then you will find the answers by yourself! I have not found any difference in the grammar. The only way you can win is by arguing that Panini himself distorted the vedas, puranas, and other scriptures to fit to what he had written in Ashtadhyayi.Would you say that?
4. Nowhere it is mentioned that Mahavira is the 9th avatar of Vishnu. Further, refer to Vishnu purana and Srimad Bhagavatam, and other sources I have provided. They clearly state that Kaliyuga started with the disappearance of Sri Krishna.
5. Nopes. Mahabharata war was fought in Kurukshetra, located 100 km from Delhi. Harappa could have been a residential area of normal people without horses and chariots. More exavations in the right areas may provide clues. But not much of research is done in that area due to lack of interest from successive congress govts. However, at this stage you cannot dismiss astronomical and astrological data. On Bet Dwaraka Chief archeologist Prof Rao said “The findings in Dwaraka and archeological evidence found are compatibile with the Mahabharata and removes the lingering doubt about its historicity.” Radiocarbon dating done on a pieces of wood found there suggest they are 5000-7000 yrs old. The final report is due soon.
# 39: Unless and until you provide the missing links for evolution you are swimming in muddy waters. I suggest you to read the book once. Dont buy all his arguments. The main findings given there will damage your claims on original Darwin’s theory of evolution. Why terms such as macro and micro evolution came up in the last 10-15 yrs?
Dear RBM:
1. Darwin – I have no problems if it remains a theory for 300 years. Scientists should not be in a hurry to ram down a theory, without sufficient evidence. The fact that genomic research today says that the gene pool of humans and say, lizards is astonishingly similar supports Darwin, more than any archeological find can ever can. So, I am not fussed about the alleged missing link ….. although, people claim to have found it in Muthalik. : )
2. Okay, wait for your references
3. I am neither claiming nor not claiming that Panini distorted the vedas – the question is if you depend on one source, how can you be sure that there is no distortion.
4. Well then, maybe you should educate the RSS and the various sangh parivar, who claim jains are hindus and Mahavira was an avatar. How about Buddha?
5. I am not sure how the Congress entered the picture here? If it is the govt’s duty to conduct archeology, which I do not think it is, why did the BJP govt not start excavations where you suggest? So, let us please avoid these silly culture wars, after your erudite post.
Finally, you should read this editorial in the New Scientist, written on 24 January 2009. It explains my point far more eloquently than I can:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126923.000-editorial-uprooting-darwins-tree.html
Thanks
And, then read this:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126921.600-why-darwin-was-wrong-about-the-tree-of-life.html
RBM/Patriot, you already know this information.
I’m just posting this for information sake. I generally recommend these videos as a starting point if there is a discussion about evolution or big bang. Please pardon the repetition if you have already seen this material.
Journey of a Man series – Based on genetic research
(highly recommended):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV6A8oGtPc4
Bigbang to US made easy series – What we know and why we (homo sapiens) think we know what we know. (highly recommened):
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DB23537556D7AADB
Rise of Man series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDIXGpWTdBs
Again: You watch. You decide. To each his own.
@Hindu Atheist
It is very easy to be non-believer but very hard to be a believer. Women themselves knows why she must not eneter a temple. Its not based on discrimination or gender bias? Now a day its a fashion to see everything through bias and discriminatory angle! Isn’t it?
Do you have any clue why man or priest keeps his chest open during temple visit or Puja? Do you know why we recommend to put mala that touches your heart? Have you ever experienced your palms on heart during midnight and you woke up with strange and scary dreams? And you found your hands(palms) were on your heart. These are very simple question I can ask, because I know the least about my Hindu religion but I found the answer of above questions on my own quest and strong experiences. No book about hinduism ever read by me when I have gone thorugh this experiences. So it is not a bookish thing I am talking about.
I dont question about your believeing or non believing. It’s very good that someone is testing the religion from another side.
Jai Hind!
Indian,
It is very easy to be non-believer but very hard to be a believer.
You are right. I’m guessing that every child by birth is a non-believer (since the hard drive in the brain is cleanly formatted and it is empty). 🙂
Women themselves knows why she must not eneter a temple.
Are you suggesting that all the homosapiens on this planet born with XX chromosomes know why she must not enter a temple? Isn’t it possible that it has got something to do with what she has been told since childhood?
Its not based on discrimination or gender bias? Now a day its a fashion to see everything through bias and discriminatory angle! Isn’t it?
I am not looking at this from any bias angle here. All I am saying is – do we question or do we continue to propagate the idea that woman should not enter a temple during periods. If a woman voluntarily decides not to enter a temple, then its her personal choice and she has every right to do so. But questioning the thought process behind such reasoning is important.
Do you have any clue why man or priest keeps his chest open during temple visit or Puja? Do you know why we recommend to put mala that touches your heart?
I don’t know and don’t want to assume. Please explain.
Have you ever experienced your palms on heart during midnight and you woke up with strange and scary dreams? And you found your hands(palms) were on your heart.
No. Luckily this never happened to me.
These are very simple question I can ask, because I know the least about my Hindu religion but I found the answer of above questions on my own quest and strong experiences.
Strong personal experiences are common to all religious experiences (not just Hindu faith). You have every right to attribute it to Hindu belief just like so many other people do with other religions.
No book about hinduism ever read by me when I have gone thorugh this experiences. So it is not a bookish thing I am talking about.
You are absolutely right it is not a bookish thing. So is the case about personal experiences of people from other faith.
I dont question about your believeing or non believing. It’s very good that someone is testing the religion from another side.
Thanks. This should be the approach. Everyone should be free to believe or not believe in what they want as long as other people’s freedom is not infringed upon. We have to respect people.
But the idea that Rajas/Sattva is the main reason why woman should not enter temples should be questioned. Please don’t bring in gender bias angle if some one questions this idea.
I think “Theories of Rajas or Sattva†talks about the emotional mood and quality. In olden scriptures it has been broadly categorized into
Sattva guna, Rajas guna and Tamas guna.
Refer Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mood_(psychology)
Now days we just classifies it into two bad mood or good mood ( bad guna or good guna). Usually I categorize the guna in 5 sections.
The “vague theory of Rajas or Sattva†is not so vague.
I do support HA for raising the question of entrance of women in temple during the specific period, unless or until satisfaction answer is not sought.
“any usage of spiritual jargon to justify something like this is unacceptable”
Be open minded and be ready to accept the unacceptable.:-)
Let us not muddle the issues:
First issue is the discussion of whether theories of Rajas/Tamas/Sattva and other spiritual planes of existence is vague or well established. It is a separate from the topic of discussion.
Second, whether or not these theories (vague or not) can be used to propose the idea of why women may not enter the temple during their periods.
My point: Ideas propogate in the society which gullible people accept as a valid explanation to justity irrational
practices (practices not laws/rules). Many such ideas exist in our society especially when supported on the basis of holiness or spiritual verbiage sometimes leading irrational practices. It is my opinion that we should question them if they don’t make sense. Since the topic of “women in Hinduism” came up, I brought this topic up.
You may believe that there is something to the theory of Rajas/Tamas/Sattva. Good for you. But I personally would question how good that explanation is and better still how it is applied.
Again if you don’t want to, then fine with me. I am not here to impose my opinion on anyone. You read, you decide.
#41. Dear Patriot, thanks for the two links from NewScientist.
1. You already know I am not opposed to evolution. You might notice why I stressed so much on micro and macro evolution. The links you have posted state: a)Darwinian tree is no longer an adequate description of how evolution in general works, b)HGT does not hold for all species, c) Genome sequencing also hasn’t given a clear picture. According to my knowledge, CURRENTLY SCIENTISTS ARE USING MICRO AND MACRO EVOLUTION TO EXPLAIN THE DESCREPANCIES OBSERVED. I am not saying this will prove everything. However, no final picture is obtained. At least we now know that Darwinian tree is unable to explain evolution. Further, we haven’t found missing links so far in spite of doing best efforts. Let’s wait(Smile)
3. You say: How can I be sure that there was no distortion from Panini?
>> Have you compared the grammar of vedas with what is written in Ashtadhyayi? Next, how many versions of Ashtadhyayi or vedas (in sanskrit, not translations) we have at the moment? From Kashmir-Kanyakumari to Europe to America to Australia to Africa and elsewhere we find only 3959 sutras in Ashtadhyayi. All I said is he ADDED FEW MORE SIMPLER RULES TO WHAT WAS ALREADY MENTIONED IN THE VEDAS. I really can’t understand the concept of distortion here. If you say there was a distortion IN WHAT HE ADDED, then it is hilarious to call addition as distortion. Well, take that stuff away and we still have the grammar of vedas and Upanishads as it is! To sum it up, the grammar included in Ashtadhyayi is synchronous with what is mentioned in Vedas, PLUS some easy set of rules for the people of KALIYUGA. Is that clear????
4. Nowhere it is claimed in our scriptures that Mahavir was an avatar. Buddha is the 9th avatar as mentioned in our scriptures. Moreover, in all scriptures it is clearly mentioned that KALIYUGA STARTED WHEN SRI KRISHNA DEPARTED. May be RSS has not studied scriptures (smile)
5. Congress was in rule for more than 55 yrs. ASI works under the govt in power. Opposition party cannot start excavating without taking prior permission from ASI or GOVT. Who provides the fund? BJP is not holding tax payers money. The project on Bet Dwaraka was almost stopped before 2000 due to lack of interest from Central govt. Prof Rao requested Congress govt repeatedly to provide more funding to complete the excavation work. Modi became the CM of Gujarath in 2001. Although he had nothing to do with Bet Dwaraka, he provided enough funding to carry out the next stage of excavations. Do you know Congress govt has stopped funding few archeological works which once were initiated by the predecessor govt (BJP)? The politics is beyond description of terms such as silly or stupidity.
I think we should end the discussion here.
Dr. Maliger (I didn’t do this before, so please excuse!),
At least we now know that Darwinian tree is unable to explain evolution. Further, we haven’t found missing links so far in spite of doing best efforts. Let’s wait(Smile)
Please visit: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
(29+ Evidences for Macroevolution, The Scientific Case for Common Descent). I’m not a biologist, but Talk Origins is a wonderful resource for questions on evolution.
I am not sure how you can reconcile all these things together:
– At one point you say you are not opposed to theory of evolution and not proposing creationism.
– You also mention about cyclical birth and rebirth of universe (which means matter always existed.. just undergoing transformations, which is a real possibility, not requiring a divine “creator”).
– Then you also talk about “avatars” and whether or not Mahavir or Buddha are avatars again based on authenticity of scriptures.
Seems like you want the matter to have existed all the time without a creator, yet it is very important if Buddha or Mahavir were avatars based on scriptures. I am all confused. 🙁
In any case if you are still considering that humans existed 22 million years ago because scientists have gaps in darwins tree, then sorry. I don’t know if I am ready to make that leap of faith.
We should end the discussion now. 🙂
@Hindu Atheist
I dont guarantee full explaination, but like to clear my stand with whatever I have understand in this little life. And also because of limited knowledge of English words to explain spirituality. But surely I am not here for defeating you.
–You are right. I’m guessing that every child by birth is a non-believer (since the hard drive in the brain is cleanly formatted and it is empty)—
True! But I also believe if something is in the existence before my birth than there must be some reason. If it is non-useful than it must not have survived this long.. Atleast we can find and see what is right and wrong? We are not homosapiens. Right! Discard what is wrong but everthing is not useless.
–Are you suggesting that all the homosapiens on this planet born with XX chromosomes know why she must not enter a temple? Isn’t it possible that it has got something to do with what she has been told since childhood?–
The part of Africa has highest number of AID’s patients. Why? They never had organized religion, culture and strong belief system,(with due respect). Poverty is the excuse! I thought animals are where they were, development of Human is leap and bound.
Sorry I dont agree with- she has been told since childhood- Ritu Kala(first time menses)is celebration for young girls. It is joyful time and girl has been given many gifts. Why dont we question if something is celebrated but anything that barred being seen as doomed. Women have been asked not to do Yoga and to take rest during that period as it is hard work for Ovaries too.
Every time for Gyatri Homa, preist I came across always asked not to worry about periods, all can join in Homa. So again it is a personal choice. It is up to us how we want to look at temple were hundreds of others devotees are coming. It may not be a important for us but many comes their with strong belief. Lets respect their belief.
—So is the case about personal experiences of people from other faith–In short, I have never questioned others belief. I
Main point, anything that comes out through our body is excretion. Do you believe that? It emits smells and many are not follower of strict hygien too. Cleaniness is the Godliness. Dont we Believe in it?.
I believe in raja, sattva and tamas strongly for other purposes and will try to find how they are linking it.
I am getting short here. More some other time.
Dear Hindu atheist, for your answers I probably need another forum under different title. I suggest you to study Brahmasutras with an open mind. Let me address it briefly here:
1. Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you nor any of the Kings here; nor will there be a time in future when we cease to exist (BG 2.12)
2. anAdirvAyamAkAshah AkAshavat sarvagatashcha nityah (Shankaracharya in his Brahmasutra Bhashya II: 3.4)– Space is beginningless and endless.
3. Madhva in his Bhashya states “Iso desascha kalascha swagata eva sarvada’ — Time and space are eternal and self-supporting,but are dependent on the Will of Ishwara.
4. Here is a beautiful quote from Madhva:
dravyam cha karmascha kAlashcha svabhAvO jiva eva cha |
yadanugrahatah santi na santi yadupEkshayA ||(Bhag II.10. 12)
Explanation:Existence in Time and Space as applied to Matter and Souls is one aspect of reality, but it does not exhaust it. Every dependent reality including Time and Space must derive its identity, denotability, being, powers and activity from a Metaphysically Independent
Reality. For this reason, the Time and Space Transcending INDEPENDENT REAL has been described in the Vedanta as ‘the Real of the reals’ (satyasya satyam – Brhadarnyaka Upanishad 2.3) and Nityo-nityanam -‘Eternal of eternals’ (Kathopanishad 2.2.13).
I can quote more, but will reserve it for my next article. To sum it, space and time are independent reals, but dependent on God. Matter gets destroyed and created again and again. It has no beginning and end but is dependent on the WILL of God. This is the summary of Vedanta, which is clearly explained in BG.
Yes matter is real; it exists in its manifest form or unmanifest form (read BG); Why souls exist in this universe is due to their swarupa-vishesha. What is Mukti? It is transformation from one state to another through knowledge and the grace of the ‘REAL OF THE REALS’ and ‘ETERNAL OF THE ETERNALS’. You see Krishna never states in BG he created souls. That is the beauty of Vedic scriptures. Why I am not averse to evolution? Because I know evolution is taking place. For any organism to exist, it must have soul. I don’t care if I was a single celled organism billions of years ago, but I existed as a soul and continue to exist as soul. All I said is Darwin’s theory in its originality has failed to explain the descrepancies. THEREFORE, new terms such as macro and micro evolution have supplanted it. It could be that man existed 22 million yrs ago. Alternative explanations in future accommodating D’s theory may prove it. At the same time you cannot deny the fact mentioned in the scripture n archeological records, unless you want to say it was backdated.
Regards,
RM
HA, read the following article about the cyclical nature of our universe. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026861.500-did-our-cosmos-exist-before-the-big-bang.html?full=true
This work is carried out by Dr. Ashtekar, an Indian by birth. They had prepared a model to study the big bang, but after expansion the universe contracted, and again expanded. Some may say its similarity to Vedanta philosophy may be accidental. Who cares? It is result that counts. Further research is required.
Dr. Maliger,
Few points:
#1. I did not discredit the possibility of cyclical nature of the universe. It is a valid possibility. (Dr. Ashtekar is Indian on not has no consequence to this discussion.)
#2. You said:
Some may say its similarity to Vedanta philosophy may be accidental. Who cares? It is result that counts. Further research is required.
I really really really care. It is not the result that counts. The method used to obtain the results counts even more.
You previously also said:
Well we have results to look into rather than the method
I completely disagree. To me method is more important than the result. All experiments should be open, transperent and the method used to obtain the results should be clearly presented. The results should be independently reproducible. Otherwise, I do not buy the results. Especially when a person claims to have answers to big questions that bother all of us (humans). Especially when a lot of homo sapiens out there are toiling to understand the universe around us. So if you want to believe that it is the result that counts and Vedanta has all the answers (without providing details of how those results were obtained) then good for you.
But, please, I will disagree here. It is more likely to be a happy coincidence.
If you can’t prove me wrong, then assume the time taken to develop the science of observing planetary motions without the know-how of telescopes or softwares. Sages have quoted ample number of times that they did it using Yoga.
I find this hard to buy. If you really believe that results are all that matter and Sages did it using Yoga, then please go ahead. I think it is a leap of faith. I cannot buy that universe is 155.52 trillion years old just because a holy book says so.
#3. The philosophical beauty of philosophy of Vedanta is amazing. It is just wonderful. And I also enjoy so many other philosophical view points on life. But what I really don’t like is when effort is made to somehow translate and map it into all the findings that have occurred in the last few centuries since modern science using extensive experiments, peer review and knowledge that is completely open to anyone for criticism. Again, you may disagree. That is fine with me.
#4. If you read Naasadiiya Suktam:
http://home.comcast.net/~prasadmail/nAsadeeyasUktam-s.pdf
(Probably you have already read this, so pardon me for repetition).
Who really knows? Who can presume to tell it?
Whence is it born? Whence issued this creation?
Even the Gods came after its emergence
Then who can tell from whence it came to be
That out of which creation has arisen
whether it held it firm or it did not
He who surveys it in the highest heaven
He surely knows may be he does not!!!
That is just wonderful agnostic confusion right there in my opinion. No body is claiming certainty here.
If you want to claim that scriptures can be used to demonstrate that God is required for evolution, then go right ahead. Please, I will disagree. I do not see sufficient evidence to have such a belief justified.
Lesson I have learnt: There is no point using scriptures to make your case especially when it comes to some of the most difficult questions in life.
To sum it, space and time are independent reals, but dependent on God. Matter gets destroyed and created again and again. It has no beginning and end but is dependent on the WILL of God.
I don’t find sufficient evidence to add the phrase (dependent on the WILL of God). It is absolutely possible that there is no end or no beginning and matter has always existed. But this cycle depends on WILL of God is a leap of faith. In my opinion, it is not sufficiently justified and in no way does it advance our understanding of the universe around us.
For any organism to exist, it must have soul.
Also, I do not find that there exists sufficient evidence to believe that a concept or idea of Soul is necessary for organism to exist. This is my opinion.
Like you mentioned:
1. This is a completely different topic, probably requires a whole different thread.
2. I expressed confusion about your mixed replies and hence you tried to clarify you position. Thanks for that.
3. Thanks for your link from newscientist article. I will go through it.
4. Again I will mention that I really enjoy reading philosophical or metaphysical material from Hindu scriptures. But I don’t buy it as absolute truth just because I was born in a Hindu family. I appreciate the beauty of it but find it really hard to buy everything from holy scriptures just because they were written in the past.
5. I don’t claim to know everything. Understanding the world around is a process. It will continue. Forever. May be we will never have answers to all the questions. IMHO, it is in our best interest to continuously evaluate our understanding based on what we discover as time progresses instead of claiming to know the answer based on ancient scriptures (does not matter which scripture you pick). Modern science provides one such systematic method to explore the world around us.
I don’t expect people to agree with my opinion or stand. That’s fine. To each his own. I will say this again: This grand wonderful cosmic dance around us doesn’t care what we (one form of life on a tiny rock suspended in the middle of nowhere) think anyways.
Dr. Maliger, Thanks for the nice discussion. We will take this matter up again some time. 🙂
Shantanu,
I’m sorry that the discussion about Women in Hinduism has taken a turn into something else. I didn’t intend it to. It is just that I saw things on the Authentic Hinduism site that were so out of tune with present understanding of the universe around us.. (and that understanding is definitely not set it in stone and continues to evolve).
Indian,
I did not understand what you are trying to say. Especially these parts:
We are not homosapiens
I hope it is a typo.
Or
The part of Africa has highest number of AID’s patients. Why? They never had organized religion, culture and strong belief system,(with due respect). Poverty is the excuse! I thought animals are where they were, development of Human is leap and bound.
Again, how is this relevant to discussion at hand (Woman, temples, periods)?
Most importantly:
It may not be a important for us but many comes their with strong belief. Lets respect their belief.
I do not agree. We should respect every human being. Not necessarily their belief. Beliefs should be open to questioning. This is a way to make progress. All beliefs should be open for discussion in a civil manner.
To each his own.
@ Atheist/ Others: You do not have to apologise for going off-topic as long as the discussion is interesting…If it veers too far off, I might open another thread…
This blog is meant to promote open discussion on cntroversial subjects…As long as everyone sticks to civil languages, nothing is off-limits.
Thanks.
Dear RBM:
Your comments #51 and 52 – these are bland assertions, either by yourselves or others. Bland assertions, unsupported by evidence, do not amount to much. As I mentioned in another post, just because somebody “great” says something is no reason to believe that, ab initio, without critical analysis.
And, as far as souls go, based on the actions (your results orientation?) of the majority of humans on planet earth, I would postulate that we are certainly “soul-less” beings.
RE: Panini/grammar/authenticity of religious texts – I think you miss my point entirely – in criminal jurisprudence, there is a term called “chain of custody” – if you wish to enter a piece of evidence into trial, you must be able to prove: i. how you acquired the evidence, ii. since you acquired the evidence, it was in your control, iii. and that, the chain was not broken after you acquired the evidence.
Most religious texts fail this test. Therefore, my questions about their authenticity, the actual written matter and their translations. (Pls refer to the conversation that I had with Nandan on another post about the authenticity of the quran). Hence, my reference to the allegorical monk.
Hindu Atheist makes a huge, huge important point in his post #54: The method is as important, if not more important, than the end result, in scientific enquiry. Results must be reproducible by peers, and on demand.
(Sathya sai baba comes to mind as as example of someone who declines to be reviewed/tested on neutral grounds. The water to petrol guy was another such chap!)
Cheers
@Hindu Atheist
You harping on one thing like belief should be open for discussion? When did I or anyone said that it should not be open? Here you are certainly getting off topics.
So people who believe somthing must be respected Right! Give them freedom! Arya Samaj don’t believe in Idol worship but they dont go to people ans ask for why you do so. Public do know what they are doing. It is up to the people to accept or not. Cant force someone? I am not here to convience you, if you dont believe in certain things don’t believe is my answer.
Nowhere in your reply to me I have seen that you are serious enough to find the truth. Sorry, but you are in rush to clamp everyone in one bundle who dont know their ABC’s and ignorant. Right!
Dear RBM:
One question – if Mahavira is not an avatar and Buddha is the ninth avatar, then who is the 8th?
And, FYI, all “general” hindu texts on avatars, that I have seen in India, have both Mahavira and Buddha as avatars – I have always considered it as a “post-facto” effort to assimilate splittists (as the Chinese call them) back into the hindu community, and boost its numbers!
However, of course, no jain or buddhist that I have spoken with ever considers them to be hindu – they consider the avatar business to be hindu imperialism!
Cheers
# 54, HA I shall attempt once more to clarify things:
1. Firstly, verses from Vedas are the first hand experiences of sages. The verse you quoted from RV is the experience of one or a set of sages on creation. Elsewhere, you will find only Vishnu existed prior to creation. From him came Brahma and other dieties. Truth is relative as far as realization is concerned, because the amount you grasp depends on your intrinsic nature.
2. I said method is impertinent because nobody trusts yoga. The method used by sages was to study agamas, perform yoga (meditation)for many years, then discuss their findings or realization with other pundits. When unanimity was reached, they would tick it as relative truth, because somebody else may come up with a better version.
3. Let me give my own example. I was bedridden for almost 25 days due to yellow jaundice in Nov 2000. I tried medicines but my health worsened and was counting my final days. As a last resort, a good friend of mine took me to a Clerk who knew the science of curing jaundice by tying the root of a tree to the patients arm. He prayed to the Tulasi plant and recited mantras from vedas. He then tied it loosely to my right arm and asked me to remove it after 2 hrs. In those 2hrs, I felt the root was pulling something from my stomach. As time passed, the grip tightened and it went to such an extent that I couldn’t bear it. Finally after 2 hrs I removed it as I poured water on it. Suddenly the skin burnt and I could see vapours. The mark due to burning is still there as it is. The most amazing thing was that I was cured of jaundice immediately. I ate my lunch without any problem. I did not vomit at all. I still cannot believe my eyes. I explained this to many doctors, but most of them say it is fake. I have seen that this person has cured people with white jaundice. He says the root alone cannot do the job. But the power of mantra is extremely important. The only way one can understand this is to get treated for jaundice (yes 2 hr cure period). He doesn’t charge anything for this. There is a donation box. You can give whatever you wish. There are many people like him in India. Isn’t it amazing?
3. The reason I talked about Ashtekar can be understood by reading post #39.
4. If Mass, time, and space are the quantities under consideration, and you say there was a beginning to space or time at big bang, then what existed prior to that? Did time or space exist prior to big bang? If you say no, then was there latent space for univesal matter to expand into space? What was beyond this space? At what time this time came into existence? If there was no space and time, then what existed prior to big bang? Big bang starts with a point. What was holding the point and at what time? How long it took for the point to become infinite in gravity before it exploded into latent/real space? Space and time therefore become ‘dependent reals’, which depend on the Metaphysically Independent Reality. That Independent Reality, is called Brahman by the Vedantists. If you say there is no Independent Reality, then you must explain the origin of Time and Space! As per Vedas and logic, time and space can be denoted only wrt Independent Reality. In BG Sri Krishna says ” Time I am” (BG 11.32) and “the whole cosmic order is under me; by my will it is manifested again and again, and by my will it is annhilated at the end” (BG 9.8)
5. One of the preachings from Vedas is that one should accept something as reality only after self-realization. Just because you are born into a Hindu family will not qualify you to accept vedic teachings. You seek, learn, verify, and then accept.
Hope it helps,
RM
P.S: Why you called space as space? Why you call time as time? Is it just because everyone called them so? What if what you think time and space are something different entities to what you think? What is the proof? What you think you see and experience as real may be illusiory! Ans: We are accepting time and space because we think they are real. There is no exception to this. THE NEXT STAGE OF RELATING TIME AND SPACE TO SOMETHING DEPENDS ON RESEARCH. I call it self-realization!
Sorry, that should be who is the 10th avatar?
Since, Kalki will be the 11th?
Dear RBM/HA:
Sorry to jump into your conversation, but here is a question:
“Space and time therefore become ‘dependent reals’, which depend on the Metaphysically Independent Reality. That Independent Reality, is called Brahman by the Vedantists. If you say there is no Independent Reality, then you must explain the origin of Time and Space!”
This explanation above is like the Russian Dolls structure – each universe is limited, existing within another bigger universe, and so on.
The question is how can “reality” be independent of space and time – if it is part of the time-space horizon (continuum), then it is not really independent. And, if it is independent of *our* space-time, then it must be contained within something else. Even, if you assume that your independent reality is just a vast consciousness, even then it must have some energy, maybe a diff form of energy to all that we know, but still an energy. And, if it has energy it has to have linkages.
That is why this is called the time-space paradox. : )
I am sure we will find the answer some day.
Until then, Douglas Adams is as good as the vedantists.
Cheers
Anyone interested in physics and our universe should also read this:
http://eands.caltech.edu/articles/LXVI3/choco.html
Also, I do not know why people jump to the conclusion that all western culture is based upon the bible – the bible is a johnny-come-lately. Western culture draws hugely on Greek, and then Roman civilisations, and then the moors who invaded and occupied Spain.
The bible was written by a committee, only around c. 600AD
@patriot
For curiosity; I have knowledge that they keep updating the bible after definite period to make it with the present time. Is it true?
@Indian,
You are really muddling issues.
And then you accuse me:
Here you are certainly getting off topics.
Cant force someone?
Sorry, but you are in rush to clamp everyone in one bundle who dont know their ABC’s and ignorant. Right!
I will let the readers decide if the accusations you hurled towards me make sense or not. Please read my comments again.
Nowhere in your reply to me I have seen that you are serious enough to find the truth.
Please don’t assume. Again I will let readers decide. It would really help if you can tell me what “truth” you are talking about.
It’s really sad that I did not see these words coming from you: “If there is an idea being propagated that women should enter temples during their periods, then that idea should be questioned”. It is really sad.
This is a perfect example of what happens when you package bad social practices under the garb of holiness or spiritual jargon. And the irony is that such “spiritual” justification is coming from a website (Hindu Jagruti).
I hope readers see my point.
@Indian (#65):
For curiosity; I have knowledge that they keep updating the bible after definite period to make it with the present time. Is it true?
Sorry for jumping in. Enjoy reading:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Dr. Maliger,
Elsewhere, you will find only Vishnu existed prior to creation. From him came Brahma and other dieties.
Who created Vishnu? And if your claim is that Vishnu existed forever, then why not Brahma and other deities exist for ever and better still, why not matter have always existed. Existence of matter forever seems to be a better answer instead of getting into the problem of infinite regress.
I have made my position pretty clear. Patriot has answered almost all the other points. There is nothing new I have read here about time/space continuum or self-realization or Maya. In my own personal opinion, it sounds like a bad attempt to reconcile modern understanding of the material world around us with what scriptures say.
You seem to place a lot of importance on scriptures and are convinced of “hidden” meanings revealed by years of meditation. It is really ironic that a bunch of really hard working homo sapiens try to unravel the mysteries of the universe around us while others try to seek buzz words to map them to “hidden” meanings of their scriptures. You are using vedanta. Others have used bible, quran, buddhist literature and god-only-know-what-else to claim “scientific” knowledge (read Quantum Physics!!!) hidden in their scriptures. While at one end physicists build LHC and invest time/effort in scientific enquiry to come up with better understanding, at the other end people claim that such understanding was reached through meditation.
I have a different perspective about it. It is good to enjoy the philosophical thought present in scriptures. I personally enjoy the introspective aspects of ancient scriptures – hindu/buddhist/chinese… just as much as you do. But in my opinion it is only suicidal for humanity if we claim that our scriptures contain “hidden” answers.
Read this article: Talking to God
http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
And using the same level of skepticism with which you understand Vedanta as absolute truth, tell me why the ideas presented in that article cannot be true?
To each his own. Thanks for the good discussion. I will let you have the last word. 🙂
The main reason for this is the way Sanskrit language is interpreted. Sanskrit is not an easy language and there are very few, infact miniscule, who can interpret it correctly. More so, with the westerners who interpret the language in a very comforting way. This is why a non-governmental university with great minds immmersed in Sankrit is required. I would like to recomend to persons who are reading this web site to go thru a web site posted here and try to contribute to this institute as much as you can so that one can build a NGO University exclusively for Sanskrit. This is required otherwise all old translations of the colonial days would look very right. The web site of is given below.
Please give as much as you can. The donation is voluntary as the web site says.
http://www.taralabalu.org/panini/
HA, Firstly, I asked you such questions on space and time, which are the foundations of Big Bang theory, that you couldn’t explain what existed prior to Big Bang. Now you say I am trying to tally the verses from Vedanta with recent findings. It is not the case, my friend. Read the comments of Albert Einstein, Neil Bohr, Openheimer, Carl Sagan, Alfred Whiteland and others on Vedanta (read last page of my rebuttal). IF YOU SAY THEY ALL LIED THEN I CAN’T HELP YOU. OTOH, you are astonished of the fact that the results of the efforts of few Homo Sapiens are already present in Vedanta.
You asked who created Vishnu. I said Vishnu/Brahman as per Vedanta is Metaphysical Highest Independent Reality. Other deities such as Brahma and souls are dependent realities. When Brahma dies in his bodily form, his soul attains Moksha (means no longer comes back to universe). That is what Vedanta calls liberated state as “ahaM brahmasmi”. Another soul takes up the position of Brahma, and so on. Yes matter exists in its manifest or unmanifest form at all times. Time and space are realities that depend on Independent Metaphysical Reality. Some scholars have called this Metaphysical Highest Independent Reality as Force. I don’t mind you, as an atheist, calling it as Force. BUT YOU WILL SUCCUMB TO THE FACT THAT TIME AND SPACE WILL REMAIN AS DEPENDENT REALITIES, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IN LINEAR BIG BANG OR CYCLICAL NATURE. Unless and until you explain this, there is no use in continuing the debate further. Is that OK? I am sure you must have thought about it hard.
Finally, regarding question on soul, I shall give up studying vedanta and become a hardcore atheist if you make a dead man (clinically proven) alive by adding lost components or biomolecules to create a body with life. Heart transplant, liver transplant etc are some of the greatest inventions.Yes it should be such a body which is about to be cremated.
Dear RBM:
You say “Finally, regarding question on soul, I shall give up studying vedanta and become a hardcore atheist if you make a dead man (clinically proven) alive by adding lost components or biomolecules to create a body with life. Heart transplant, liver transplant etc are some of the greatest inventions.Yes it should be such a body which is about to be cremated.”
What has this got to do with the presence or absence of a soul? I really fail to understand this? You die because your heart or liver or some other organ ages, and it stops working. This is basic “organic” biology at work – how does the soul come into the picture?
OTOH, if we consider the *fact* that life expectancy has increased from say, 45, 500 years ago to 80 in the western countries today, would you say that proves the absence of a soul? Just using a slightly different take on your question.
Just because we die (or that we were born) is no reason to believe in the existence of a soul.
Cheers
The best way is to create an Institute for sanskrit , where the language is interpreted in the right way. Most of the interpretation have been from western sources. Infact , the Sanskrit of orientalists like Muller Max, Jones , Griffith were thru hired translators.
For example , the word gnana in Sanskrit has no equivalent word in any language. This interesting aspect , I once heard when i visited California to listen to the lecture of John Dobson, the inventor of Dobsonian telescope for amateurs. He was emphatic that there is no word equivalent to the word gnana in any language. Dobson is an undergraduate of UC Berkeley in Chemistry and later he joined the Vedanta monastery and wrote a many monographs on Vedanta and side by side did his contributions to astronomy. Though not a great scientist, but his lectures about the words in Sanskrit and their misuse was a revelation. You can tyoe John Dobson in google and get his web site.
Another important article on the Misuse of word on the study of Hinduism is well written in the following article.
http://drfrankmorales.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/04/word-as-weapon-the-misuse-of-terminology-in-the.htm
http://www.dharmacentral.com is web site of interest.
I have met many, both Indians and Westerners, all have said, the inadequate study of Sanskrit has resulted in a myriad of interpretations. All the above have been scholars.
Let us all contribute to a NGO body exclusively for Sanskrit and its study.
There is an excellent institute in Karnataka , which is doing good work. If we all contribute then we could make it a great institute for the study of Sanskrit.
Here is the web site
http://www.taralabalu.org/panini/
Please contribute as much as you can, so that we can make it a great institute for the study of Sanskrit. I end with Swami Vivekanandas clarion call “Arise and awake and rest not till you create an institute for the study of Sanskrit and its right interpretation”.
Dr. Maliger, Shantanu and Others,
Nice rebuttal to Islam watch. And you answered this way:
Kasem writes: So much so, that for begetting a son, ‘Vedas’ prescribe a special ritual called ‘Punsawan sanskar’ (a ceremony performed during third month of pregnancy).
Rebuttal: The word Punsawan means ‘manliness’. During the ‘Punsawan Sanskar’ ceremony, which is performed during the third month of pregnancy, a husband vows to observe celibacy during the duration of pregnancy and lactation and ensure the happiness and health of his wife, and in return, the wife vows to do all she can to ensure the perfect well-being of the foetus so that the child is born strong and healthy…. For more information on Sanskars, please visit the following link.
Let us face some reality now. Shall we? How about writing a rebuttal to our own Hindu Jagruti? Please read this material from Hindu Jagruti website: [emphasis mine].
http://www.hindujagruti.org/hinduism/knowledge/article/which-sanskars-are-vital-for-overcoming-defects-in-foetus.html
———–
Punsavan (Begetting a son)
2.1 The objectives
The word Punsavan (पà¥à¤‚सवन) has originated from ‘punsya avanaha (पà¥à¤à¤¸à¥â€à¤¯ अवन:)’. Punsya means prowess and avanivar means descent onto the earth. Hence after conception, this sanskar (rite) is performed to beget a son.
2.3 The resolve (sankalpa)
A. To overcome any defects in the ovum or foetus.
B. To conceive a male child.
C. To not just destroy but also liberate the clan of demons who devour flesh and blood.
D. To acquire the blessings of Mahalakshmi, the presiding deity for continuous bestowal of opulence (soubhagya).
E. Worship of Lord Ganesh, Punyahavachan, Matrukapujan and Nandishraddha.
After the sacrificial fire (hom) the woman should cup her hands and hold them proximal to the knees. On the right hand is placed curd made from the milk of a cow whose colour is the same as that of her calf (or if unavailable, their colour may vary). A cob of barley (jav) with its head facing the east should be placed on it like the male sex organ (penis). Then on either side of it are placed two black grams (udid) which resemble the testes. Then uttering thrice, ‘I am drinking the punsavan’, the woman should partake of it and sip water from her palm (achaman). This procedure is repeated twice. Then this ritual is deemed to be complete. Similar shapes emit similar frequencies according to the law ‘समानशीले वà¥â€à¤¯à¤¸à¤¨à¥‡à¤·à¥ सखà¥â€à¤¯à¤®à¥â€Œ ।’ meaning ‘likes attract and befriend one another’.Thus the same assumption is made that the shapes of the penis and testicles attract identical frequencies of the male principle towards the womb.
‘The ritual of squeezing juice from the rootlets of the banyan tree into the left nostril, placing an earthen plate filled with water on the lower abdomen of the woman and chanting mantras such as the ‘Suparno’si (सà¥à¤ªà¤°à¥à¤£à¥‹ ऽसि)’ , etc. prove effective in producing a male offspring. Brahmi, somlata, banyan, etc. are trees which prevent bilious humour (pitta), overcome vaginal defects, enhance oja (precursor of divine energy) and protect semen. The cumulative effect of all these is a generation of masculine components in the semen.’ (1)
————-
All I want to say, if you are really interested about eliminating mis-conceptions about Woman in Hinduism then:
– Enemy is closer than you think. Don’t under-estimate this.
– Irrational practices are pushed by very own Hindus with spiritual jargon. Notice the words likes attract like and frequencies thrown loosely in the description.
– Look around. You will see lot of justification being offered for lot of such practices.
It is easy to raise fingers at others for misrepresenting us. It is more dangerous to ignore it when our own very people start pushing these hollow ideas. It will be really sad if someone comes back to offer a “scientific” explanation for this ritual. *Sigh*
You read. You decide.
Dear Patriot,
I was answering to Hindu Atheist’s claims on soul. You must know that people did live more than 100 yrs not so long ago. All I say is the soul stays in the body as long as the body is good enough to live. Let me clarify it further. A person dies of heart attack, which is nothing but stoppage of blood flow for the functioning of heart. The doctors consider him to be dead. Modern science knows the anatomy of human body than ever before. Since you believe it is the cells that are more important in defining a body, why not rectify the blood circulation through an operation and revive the dead person. Well, the person was dead only about 15 min ago; they take organs from such dead persons for transplants. If life is only organic matter in the body, then doctors should be able to revive a dead person. Can they? Answer YES or NO!
Patriot,HA, and others
Here is an interesting article linking the units of measurement from Harappan civilization to Chanakya’s period to Mughal era. Yes Harappan civilization!!
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/feb252009/547.pdf
Dear RBM:
You are twisting yourself into knots here to explain the presence of soul! : )
“I was answering to Hindu Atheist’s claims on soul. You must know that people did live more than 100 yrs not so long ago.”
No, I do not *know* this – please provide authenticated data where the *average* life expectancy of people was over 100 years.
“All I say is the soul stays in the body as long as the body is good enough to live.”
This is your assertion. You or some one else saying this does not make it correct (or incorrect for the matter). Provide some evidence of the existence of said soul.
“Let me clarify it further. A person dies of heart attack, which is nothing but stoppage of blood flow for the functioning of heart. The doctors consider him to be dead. Modern science knows the anatomy of human body than ever before. Since you believe it is the cells that are more important in defining a body, why not rectify the blood circulation through an operation and revive the dead person.”
Ummmm, I do not think you understand (or choose not to understand) that organs decay and stop working – this is the result of various factors, the chief among which is living. Again, the fact that people have heart attacks, and survive with the help of remedial surgery is evidence that medical science is helping to prolong life. Take the example of a car – even with your best maintenance, if you run it everyday, it will eventually fail and stop running. The heart is kind of like that, you know.
“Well, the person was dead only about 15 min ago; they take organs from such dead persons for transplants. If life is only organic matter in the body, then doctors should be able to revive a dead person. Can they? Answer YES or NO!”
No, they can can not revive a “dead” person – what does that prove, if anything? And, organs taken from a dead person are still “alive” – in so much, that the oxygen in the blood already in those organs keep them alive for some time – then they freeze the organs until surgery. But, here is the point – they do not take the heart from a person, who has died from a heart attack – they may take the liver, and vice-versa. What does that tell you?
Cheers
Patriot, you say organs decay and stop working and is the result of various factors, the chief among which is LIVING. What is living according to you? When they can take out kidneys, eyes, and other organs for transplant, and considering it is all biomolecules and cells that make up your life (according to you), why not perform a small surgery to the affected heart valve and revive? If you can’t then there must be something else (which you describe it as living) that has left body! Common, the person has died only 5 minutes ago and all other organs are ready for transplant…. How much more can I explain!
Reading all your arguements, and interpretations makes one feel that, an Institute for Sanskrit Studies exclusively is required. The response for the institute in Karnataka which I have posted before, was very good when I posted this another blog.
Dear RBM:
How can I make this clear to you – I think you are being deliberately obtuse here
1. Organs can not be repaired, beyond a point, by present-day science. Stem cells hold a lot of promise for the future
2. Please do so some research about the heart as an organ, before saying things like “why not perform a small surgery to the affected heart valve and revive”
3. Please understand that it is the heart’s job to supply oxygen to the rest of your cells – pls do some research about how long various organs last (especially the brain) in the absence of fresh oxygen coming to it. You can be alive and yet be brain dead – how is that possible?
Finally, I think you misunderstood what I meant by living – what I meant is that as you live and work and play – you breathe in pollution, you eat stuff that has toxins in it, the sun causes your cells to die, you get attacked by various virii and bacteria – so, as you live, your organs die. This is because you are composed of organic matter – now, instead, if we could make you out of plastic and silicon, then you are talking!
The other option is that when a child is born, isolate the child in a completely sterile atmosphere, give it pure “air” to breathe, pure water to drink, only the best, toxin-free food to eat, keep it away from the sun, give it all the best care you can – maybe, it will live for 500 years, who knows. : )
Cheers
@Hindu Atheist
Whats your take about “Anything that is waste from our body is excretion?” ‘Cleanliness is Godliness’ Right or wrong? You missed that point Or you just want to discard it as rubbish? How can it be connected it with ritual. Can we build a washrooms in the temple? Ofcourse,God is not going to punish for that but what our conscious says is important.
No women had been punished for entering the temple when in menses. Its important for religious institute to spread the words about it. You believe or not again its up to the person. They are not chasing with sticks after women who are in menses!
I don’t have time to contribute more to the discussion. Can I ask what accusation I have hurled against you?.And How
other reders are the judge for what I felt? Your writing seems more defensive rather than seeker’s in this matter so may be I didnot put the words in order. Sorry for that. I found; you are closing doors and seeking the truth. You have aimed to prove it as a ritual.
Seekers always keeps their big Ego aside to judge the matters in every possible way, not just sticking at one point,thats what my understanding is. Sorry If I have hurt you.
If you think excretion at temple is fine than that is end of discussion.
@Indian,
Again, don’t put words into my mouth. Please read my comments again. No one is talkng about force or anything. All I have been saying is tht irrational practices are supported by vague ideas. Unless you question the ideas these practices will prevail.
What a stupid notion of considering body output as waste. It is all just organic matter. What you call as waste is your definition. I’m sure you don’t consider something that comes out of cow as waste (Ahh, cow urine therapy!!!). Besides, this has nothing, ***absolutely nothing***, to do with the topic at hand.
I have absolutely no idea why you are bringing about bodily excretion as a subject when we are talking about idiotic explanations for propoagating an idea and questioning ideas.
I am sure people don’t fart or sweat or belch in temples. *Sigh*
Stick to the topic at hand. don’t mix topics. Do you or do you not consider that “justifying a practice or propagating an irrational thought that woman cannot enter temples during their periods” – IS A BAD IDEA? Such bad ideas need to be questioned. They don’t make sense.
Again, I have never talked about force or creating laws or force or anything here. Read my comments again. I have nothing more left to say. People can read my comments to decide for themselves.
Dr. Maliger,
Previously, you said:
I don’t care if I was single celled organism a billion years ago, but I existed as a soul and continue to exist as a soul
Please correct me if I am wrong, but your assertion is:
Living animal/human/multicell/single-cell/whatever => “Dies” => Cannot be revived => Hence there *must* be a Soul.
If this is true, you seem to have a very simplistic view of things and you are walking into a potential landmine here. There are so many questions that need to be answered (when did the soul get there?) Even if you consider just Humans (like you are discussing above) pregnency, early/late term abortions or misccariages,…I can go on and on).
What is the reason you are saying there *must* be a soul?
For the case of humans and problems with definitions of death, a good case to study: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo
Just going by your own logic:
-A single cell organism can exist and contains a soul.
-A human “dies”. According to you his *soul* left him. But a part of his body is still alive. According to you, each of the individual cells potentially contain Souls!!!! Am I right or wrong?
-So what happened to the Souls in all those cells which are still alive??
-How many souls are there?
-Why do you say that there is only one soul which left the body?
Like patriot said, you are completely twisting yourself into knots here. I will wait for your discussion with Patriot to continue. 🙂
Shantanu,
If you are really serious about “Woman in Hinduism”, then I would really like to see a rebuttal to Hindu Jagruti . It is more important to correct distortions within our own society instead of blaming how others are misrepresenting us.
Dr. Maliger,
You keep quoting Carl Sagan. He’s my hero also.
A great educator. I recommend his book to everyone:
“A Demon Haunted World – Scince as the Candle in the Dark”.
He makes a clear case why pseudo-science is such nonsense.
Fart! that is the reason of fasting or not to over eat during celebration at temple. Many devotees are gather to worship so to keep it smell free in whatever little way we can do. Organic matter stinks or not? Go deeper in the study of cow dung! So lets take cow in to the temple and build a shed inside Right! That is what you suggest?
Hindu Atheist
What is bad Idea may not be Bad idea for many? Do you accept that? If this not force or what!
@Indian:
Don’t beat around the bush.
All, I am saying:
“An idea that Woman cannot enter temples during their periods – is irrational, stupid, has no basis whatsoever and is detrimental to society. “.
Agree or not?
If you comeback with one more excuse about cleanliness/bodily excretion/waste to justify your explanation …. I’m sure your god (who gave the periods to woman in the first place) won’t like your definition of cleanliness. Are you living in stone age or something? Comparing women having periods to why temples should kept clean. What a thought process.
I’m outta here. Readers can read all your comments and have a good laugh.
Is it your arrogance? what I say is stupid and irrational and what you say is rational! Beautiful!
I dont agree anything is detrimental to society, unless and until something is harmful and causing serious inconviences to others. And can you cite one incident when women have been turn away when she was in Menses?
And you think what ever you said straight came from your super duper brain and kept readers for laughiung at me. How can you decide readers will laugh at me? Very well my friend! Lets ask how many laughed at me? So I can count how much pleasure you get from readers laughing at me.
So you suggests I should not hold any thought because my mind is stupid because I have some belief. Right! Beautiful! And you modern scientific man! Right!
And if you think I am the one who will put down my arguments because some few laughed at me than you are very wrong in your defense. There are various other issues that are detrimental to society and many more harmful than what you are aiming here. Focus on some benificial things rather than
When medical science says that women who are in periods and also who are going thorugh menopause are cranky, gets hot flashes and behaves irritately than its fine but if some scriptures said than it is doomed. Right!
Indian,
It would be priceless to read your response to scientific explanation provided in comment #73. Do you think it will work?
Again, you are perfectly right about there being more issue to consider about the society. Please read my comment #47 on why I brought up this topic in this discussion.
-HA
@ Atheist: A very hurried response re. JanaJagruti and reforms within Hinduism etc.
When you have a few moments, please have a look at these links:
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/09/reforms-in-hinduism/
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/07/02/is-this-too-much-to-ask/
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/04/19/shameful-and-inexcusable/
…and below is an email I sent to JanaJagruti in response to their call to boycott Valentine’s Day:
I am afraid I cannot agree with your position.
In any case, this is getting close to being off-topic so I will stop at this point.
Thanks.
Shantanu,
Thanks for the links. I will go through them.
This is my perspective:
Dr. Maliger’s rebuttal to Abul Kasem is more like PR business. But questioning Hindu Jagruti (which claims to educate people about Hindu Dharma, no less!!) is like actually fixing the problem. Better still, start questioning such ideas/practices when you see them around you: family, friends, neighbors. There is no harm in expressing a little skepticism. Unfortunately, when I look around I see more focus in the PR business than taking a hard look at the realities. PR business is essential but fixing the actual problem is more important. If you don’t question the problems you have inside, then all the PR is a waste of time while the whole thing rots from the inside. I hope people see the disctinction.
Dr. Maliger,
I sincerely hope you write a rebuttal to Hindu Jagruti on Punsavan and post their response here. It would be interesting. We can continue vada-vivada of souls/cosmology/vedanta later. My opionion again is that such discussion can be termed more academic than questioning “scientific explanations” of Punsavan.
HA, single cell organism has a body too. So it has a soul. Why are you saying number of cells = number of souls??? In case of humans that comprises of many cells there is only one soul. By saying this I answered the rest of your questions.
You say science is not that advanced to revive a dead person; fair enough it is an open ended discussion. Having studied biotechnology, I know the intricacies in heart surgery. When you say science needs more time, you are indeed buying time to fix the debate. When a patient is alive, they transplant liver and other organs from other dead persons. Well, knowing very well the anatomy and the biochemical make up of the body, why can’t they do it when soon after the death of the patient? BTW THE CELLS ARE STILL ALIVE FOR SOMETIME AFTER DEATH, AREN’T THEY? Don’t they transplant the dead persons organs for another potential patient? wanna buy more time to do reasearch? I seriously can’t understand what death means to you.
Earlier there was lot of switching of subject from one topic to another. In case of Panini’s grammar you seemed to follow circular logic until I repeatedly told you about the condensation of vedic and Panini’s grammar during his period. Next, since you believe in big bang theory (which is linear), I asked you to provide circumstances that defined time and space before big bang. I told you, quoting from vedas, that time and space are realities that depend on an Independent Metaphysical Reality, which Vedantists called Brahman; Some scholars called it an impersonal force.
Having got your nod from those two arguments, I asked you what you exactly mean by death? Science knows the biochemical composition of a human body. Life according to science is all about cells, organs, and metabolism. With so much knowledge why can’t they revive a dead person? IF YOU (OR SCIENCE) WANT TO BUY TIME CITING TECHNICALITIES IN PURSUING SUCH THINGS, I shall wait. Else, we are, like in the previous cases, beating around the bush.
Indian Atheist , RBM , Indian , Patriot , your discussions all point to one thing, A institute for serious study Sanskrit is required.
Once when Yvette Rosser asked Romila Thapar, the famous historian , why is there no serious study of Sanskrit in Indian Universities, she replied that it can learnt in mutts and peeths. What an answer when a question was posed for serious studies. Just like I quoted John Dobson for thw word gnana and how there is no word equivalent to it. there is another word misused . This is the word Bhog. This word has been interpreted in so many ways, from the subtle meaning of food for enjoyment to some vulgar meanings. This was the mischief done by the Western Orientalistts. We have to undo this or give the right meaning by serious scientific studies. and not leave it to mutts and peethas as Romila Thapar says.
In this age of computers , which can can be used as an excellent tool for linguisitic study, there must be an institute for serious study of Sankrit.
Let us consider a patient that has died of heart attack. There was a blockage of blood flow through arteries; as a result the person suffered heart attack and collapsed. The doctors then declare him ‘brain dead’ because this is the highest reality in medical science to describe a patient as dead. The CNS fails; even if the blockage is removed, blood won’t circulate. However, majority of the cells and organs are good enough to be transplanted to a potential patient. WHAT IS THE LIVE-FORCE THAT IS MISSING IN THE BODY? We can also use mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs) to grow them into potential organs. Knowing the know-how of the biological makeup of our body, why can’t science fix this problem? If you want to buy time, it is granted!
Dear Gajanan, I fully agree with your views.
This is the copy of Erwin Schrodingers masterpiece “What is Life”, which was the basis for the march of modern biology. Many leading scientists have eulogised this text as their inspiration. In page 30-32 , Free will and determinism , Schrodinger explains Vedanta and his views. There is word MAJA printed in the section. I think it is a print error. It should be MATA. One can save it as a copy for eternity. Erwin Schrodinger did the famous equation , the Schrodinger Wave Equation, which is considered as one of the greatest work in physics.
http://whatislife.stanford.edu/Homepage/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf
Apologies, it should be MAYA not MAJA or MATA in post 94
@Author
Awesome View
Fantastic article!
Its good that you are able to pin point where the wrong translation has been made and how. This is key to debunking many of the ideas that have divided Hindu society between men vs women ; upper caste vs shudra / dalits ; north Indians vs south Indians.
I wish more Indians / Hindus were aware of such facts and were able to more actively defend their religion when people make negative comments on it. This is especially true when our convent educated children are actively taught to be ashamed of their religion and culture. Hindus living in foreign countries have the same issues and find it difficult to rebut the claims of the host population.
Its good to see where the religion vs culture vs history vs society lines up. Often the social norms are paraded as religious or scriptural rules and we are forced to act against scriptures as a result. I am very glad that you are doing this and am grateful to you for clearing up so many doubts I had about the Ashvamedha yagna in particular.
Thanks !
Bhagwat
@Bhagwat
I completeley agree with you. In foreign countries many time I came across poeple who blames divorces in ethnic people as the result of arrange marriages. So what do I have to conclude for higher divorce rate amongs whites? The reason they give is; freedom of individuality! Than why do you marry on first place?
Infact their too can be called as arrange marriage. Mostly all elite class go thorugh background check before they marry. Their dating services does for them before they start dating. So I see no difference between the process of arrange marriage backhome or in foreign countries.
Its simply they get pleasure finding flaws and faults in others.
In another incident of sucide of indian origin woman there was huge uproar and they started speculating and condemning that women has no say in Indian society. And in few days there was a news that police officer of Americam family killed his wife with his own revolver in his home. Now what do I have to conclude? And I came across another incident of same kind where police officer has the history of killing his 3 wives but always escaped the law.
I dont think any rituals or religion plays part in all these incidents. Its simply psycholgyical problems.
Dr. Maliger,
Since you are some how stuck with death of humans although you claim all living organisms (including those stupid bacteria on my toilet seat) have souls. You did not quantify the soul-entry or exit mechanisms and process of reproduction/death/abnormal cases/conjoined twins….in all those millions of species and methods of arriving the answer doesn’t matter to you.
So let’s run a thought experiment:
Date: Jan/1/1009. Person A suffers from a disease which lowers his heartbeat. So dangersouly low that it can almost stop. Unfortunately his heart eventually does stop and he dies on Jan/5/1009. Walks in a Vedanti, and decalres that his “Soul” has left his body.
Date: Jan/1/2009. Person B suffers from the same disease which lowers his heartbeat. Again so dangerously low that it can alomst stop. He goes to a doctor who prescribes him a Pacemaker. All happy, he walks out of the hospital and lives happily ever after. On March/1/2009 he is still “alive. Surprisingly, the biologically bodily condition of the person B (on Jan/1/2009) and of person A (on Jan/1/2009) are exactly silimar. Not just that even the accumulated “karma” and “sanskaras” are exactly similar. So much so strikingly similar that he should have died on Jan/5/2009 (technically).
Now the question is: Why is person B still alive?Biologically and Karmically speaking (!!) his Soul should have left him on Jan/5/2009. Who/What is keeping him alive?Is it his soul which has suddenly decided not to leave him Or the pacemaker? Or now he is the first special living organism without Soul??
Oh by the way, I believe that each human being has not just one soul. The amount of soul changes from person to person and it can never be an integer. A nominal amount of Soul each person is generally greater than (e)^(pi) (~23.1406926). We do not have the proof available for this result but it is written in several books in Swahili by our revered ancestors in Africa which are getting translated still. It is the results that matter. Not how this result was obtained. Just like you, I flat out refuse to offer evidence/proof for my assertions. A person “dies” is an indication of the 23.1406926 Soul leaving his body. Believe it or not that is the Truth. All this was revealed to us by our supreme lord.
In the end all I want to say is: It is not my intent to disrespect you in anyway or engange in personal attacks. I also enjoy reading the philosophical aspects of Vedanta/Veda/BGs/Vedas. But if you would like to claim it as the unltimate Truth (yeah truth with T) without the burden of proof then you are most welcome to. Good for you. Your assertions are just are just as good as any other scripture can offer. They are true, if you want them to be true. Philosophical musings are the best part of any scripture. But unbacked assertions are as good as science fiction in my opinion. Good for me. 🙂
PS: Yeah, I know you will try to answer my questions about the thought experiment. Somehow may be karma/soul/God or something will be thrown into the explanation. So don’t bother. Even if you do explain (for the sake of others), then I won’t bother to reply. This time, I promise. I have a million cross questions and corner cases that you wouldn’t want to hear and we can play this game forver. But let’s forget it. You win. Good for us.
Instead of continuing this privileged academic discussion, let’s get those similar-frequency-emitting-making-the-sperm-more-masculine folks.
My dear friend Hindu Atheist, the discussion is not about winning or losing. It is just an exchange of information. I don’t like to beat around the bush. You have not answered the question I wanted you to answer. I shall highlight the point you need to address in CAPITAL LETTERS.
Case A: The person is dead. I definitely say the soul has left the body. You cannot revive him no matter what you do. Case B: I appreciate the medical efforts; it is good for society. It indicates the body is still good enough for the soul to reside. I shall quote a verse from Gita to buttress my view– “As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, GIVING UP THE OLD AND USELESS ONES.” (BG 2.22)
####Case C: I presume you believe soul/conciousness has nothing to do with a person’s death because its existence is not proven by modern science. Consider Case A again. The person is declared dead because he is “Brain Dead” as per the doctors. I CHALLENGE THAT HE CANNOT BE REVIVED BECAUSE THE SOUL HAS ALREADY LEFT THE BODY. IF LIFE IS ALL ABOUT CELLS, BIOCHEMICALS, AND METABOLISM, WHY CAN’T YOU REVIVE HIM THROUGH SURGERY AND ADVANCED MEDICAL TECHNIQUES? TELL ME CAN YOU REVIVE HIM? YES OR NO. Just one answer mate! We’ll discuss about other things later. But don’t use circular logic here to avoid being cornered. Say YES/NO.
I told you, YOU CAN BUY TIME TO FIX THE INTRICACIES. I will be more than happy to keep the discussion open-ended. But, don’t beat around the bush for the sake of modern science and Vedanta.
Best regards,
RM
Dr. Maliger,
I’m breaking my promise and replying to you.
Say YES/NO
No.
YOU CAN BUY TIME
Thanks.
Human is dead -> Can’t be revived -> ASSERT that it is because of Soul left. Thanks for the very convincing story.
GIVING UP OLD AND USELESS ONES
I wonder what happens when hundred people die in a stampede in a Temple. All of a suddent “not so old” bodies become useless for the souls.
Unfortunately (for me, ofcourse), my useless mind runs amok with all weird thought experiments of living organisms, their reproductive cycles and births, their “deaths”, weird cases of accidents (FIT/UNFIT physically), mass deaths, mass exterminations of animal life, and their souls ….. etc etc (I can go on) and my stupid brain raises huge redflags with tons of inconsistencies in the “wonderful story” of painted by the eternal soul filtering system of Vedanta.
For the sake of vedanta and modern science
Good luck with Vedanta and “modern science”. I wonder how wicked my soul is to question these things. I will probably reincarnate as a HIV virus in my next birth.
Since you seem to quote Carl Sagan, see if your theory passes his <a href=”http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html” Baloney Detection Kit.
Let’s leave it open ended. It was nice exchaning views with you. Like I say: To each his own and this magnificient universe around us doesn’t care what we think.
In our (humans) own best interest, we are better off keeping the exchange of views healthy/academic (let’s minimize using CAPSLOCK next time) and work together where we can. Please don’t break my heart regarding rebuttal to hindu jagruti folks. I have a feeling that you genuinely care about how “women in hinduism” instead of PR work with Abul Kasem.
Hindu Atheist,
You answered NO. Thanks for that. If you wish to engage in further discussion, then you ought to buy time to answer YES. I used capslock to remind you to answer some of the straight-forward questions instead of engaging in a circular logic. In a temple stampede people die; so souls live the body. As a result they are declared dead. Don’t mix devotion and death issues.
If science is able to revive a dead person, let me know. I am sure it won’t happen according to me. Until then the ball will be in your court. You can serve when time says YES.
Have a good day,
No hard feelings (that’s what Gita preaches),
RM
P.S: I will write a rebuttal only if time permits. I am into research in polymer science. I took more than a month to write my rebuttal. If I don’t write, I am sure there are eligible Hindus to complete that task.
Dr. Maliger,
No hard feelings here too.
But I sincerely hope you are aware that burden of proof always rests on the person who makes the claims. So unless you offer evidence/quantification/convincing methods to back up your claims, you are bound to end up in knots when corner cases are presented to you. Try offering the “meditated in a cave for 12 years and hence I know it” as explanation in a journal paper for your polymer research.
All I say: Drop your simplistic strawnman cases and run your arguments through Carl’s Baloney Detection Kit. Like Carl says: Spin more than one hypothesis – don’t simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy and arguments from authority carry little or no weight.
Like Gita preaches, go on a true quest of Knowledge. Appreciate the culture, poetry, philosophical thought, learn from good ideas (doesn’t matter which scripture) but spare no details before claiming something as Science. That’s the only way we advance our knowledge further. Otherwise you will end up with like-attract-like-emit-frequency kind of pseudo science to justify Punsavan!! Again, my opinion. 🙂
You may find this interesting: http://www.geeknews.net/2008/06/03/bacteria-revived-from-120000-year-old-ice
I will go decimate a few million souls in the cultered yogurt cup waiting for me. Good luck with your research.
@Hindu Atheist
#87.Indian,
—It would be priceless to read your response to scientific explanation provided in comment #73. Do you think it will work?–
By now I know your language while exchanging your price…less thoughts, opinions and ideas. In the end you will end up, you read, you decide and to each his own. Readers are laughing at me and what not! Than why so concerened? To each his own. Right!
Keeping aside what is the content which I have not read in full at their site.
If I say it will work what you gonna going to do? I know, what you will do< will come back and say its stupid and irrational and readers are laughing at me Right! Than I will ask you something… than you will change the tone and make some ill remarks right! These are your tools, nothing new in your thought process. Again to each his own don’t come back again with something rational thought which is to you only.
I am sure many know about Thaipusam. Many scientists are clueless! Anyone ever gone to Thaipusum? It is banned in India but have created curiosity amongs many countries all around the world. Many wait for this season and It is wish of them to visit and be part of this ritual. Amazing!.
My question what is the science behind this? Any clue? I saw on video some time back, where women who took part saying that for more than 16 years of her marriage she was issueless, medical report said she can never become mother. One day she went to Murugan temple and held the feet of Murugan and cried and said I am not going to leave your feet, give me child. And cried and cried. After some months she was blessed with a child. What belief can do science cannot was her reply.
http://allmalaysia.info/msiaknow/festivals/thaipusam/
Over the years, curious British, American and Australian medical experts have come to observe and speculate. Some think the white ash smeared on the body, the juice squeezed from the yellow lime fruit or the milk poured on the pierced areas may help to numb the skin. But most admit they have no answer.
The devotees say it is faith.
“The belief in Lord Murugan is what prevents the pain and the bleeding,” says Krishna Vadyar, a priest at the temple which conducts the annual rituals.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/2/2/nation/16758526&sec=nation
Amidst loud chants of “vel-velâ€, A. Virappan, 57, walked calmly in his “slippers of nails†.
“I was on a three-day vegetarian diet so I feel no pain.
“Years ago I made a vow to Lord Murugan to heal my leg, which aches each time I walk, and he has done so. This is my second year fulfilling my vow and I will continue walking in these slippers during Thaipusam for as long as I can,†he said.
Each slipper had 1,000 nails sticking upright, pricking his feet with every slow step forward.
Among those with their bodies pierced were friends Britons Alex Catchipole, 25, and Letchmi Love, 35.
The two came all the way from England to participate in the festival.
Love also had his body pierced last year during the festival in Penang.
The yoga practitioner said he had a vision of Lord Siva asking him to be part of the Thaipusam festival.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/holydays/thaipusam.shtml
Shantanu,
While a privileged few of us blog/comment about “woman in hinduism”; superstition, black magic, irrational ideas and beliefs, tantra…etc are so so deep rooted they affect our society at the grassroots level.
1 minute clip (please watch it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEI6qeOk0pY
Again, if we think only uneducated people believe these theories, we need to wake up. Read this:
http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/articles/id/spiritualresearch/difficulties/Ghosts_Demons/typesofghost_witch
(Visit this link to take a look at the priceless image there)
——–
A foul smell is associated with the presence of Witches (Chetkins).
People possessed by Witches (Chetkins) when manifest laugh continuously.
They are skilled in assuming various forms.
They enter a person’s body and cause accidents. They then take control of subtle bodies of these people to get them to work for them. They also train them in performing rituals to harness black energy.
They are capable of taking complete control of a house and can then devastate the entire family living there.
They are experts in the field of mantra and tantra. They are well-versed in casting magic spells.
They work alongside the highest type of ghosts, i.e. subtle sorcerers (maantriks).
—–
It makes me sad. Really really really really sad. 🙁 🙁
Just my opinion: We can engage in PR business and feel good about it. But unless we gather the courage to question the rationale behind these hollow ideas and their perpetrators nothing is going to change in the society. Please let us do that. If we are really serious about India and condition of women in India, then what Abul Kasem thinks/says is the last of our problems.
Shantanu, kindly move this comment to some other thread if you think it is necessary.
@Hindu Atheist:
“I believe that each human being has not just one soul. The amount of soul changes from person to person and it can never be an integer. A nominal amount of Soul each person is generally greater than (e)^(pi) (~23.1406926).”
LOL!!! Actually, I “believe” that there should be an adjustment in your equation – the equation needs to be adjusted for the molecular mass of the person, and the SD of the respective genetic population. So, the equation could be changed from your absolute to the relative of:
Nominal amount of soul (S) = (M * e ^ pi)/σ
Heh …. you may also want to join the church of the flying sphageti monster at http://www.venganza.org/
===========================================
On a more serious note, I think HA raises a very important question, which is not being given the seriousness it deserves (looks like it to me): while we are ready to take up arms against “outsiders” who distort our literature (scriptures), it seems like the intent to take on insiders is lacking. Yet, insiders present the greater challenge to our society.
RBM says he will leave it to others to educate Hindu Jagruti (and the RSS) because he does not have time. Yet, he did have the time to take on the muslim.
Same applies to you, Shantanu – have you forwarded RBM’s explanation to Hindu Jagruti and told them that their website and interpretation is wrong? If not, why were you so involved in taking up the Ramayana issue with some US university?
I think ensuring that Indians have the right interpretation of our scriptures is far, far more important than what outsiders write, isn’t it? Because, I, for one, do believe that the external reflects the internal.
Of course, I do not care either way ….. I just find it ironic that we leap to the task of bearing arms against outsiders, without setting our own house in order first.
Cheers
Also, Shantanu, if it is possible, please move all the atheism related comments to a new thread – it is just getting lost in the overall topic here.
Dear RBM:
I had to respond to this (all caps) question that you raised:
“WHY CAN’T YOU REVIVE HIM THROUGH SURGERY AND ADVANCED MEDICAL TECHNIQUES? TELL ME CAN YOU REVIVE HIM? YES OR NO”
Actually, the answer is YES under the right environment, and with the right equipment.
You claim to be familiar with procedures of heart surgery, etc – did you know that doctors in advanced hospitals can and do revive people, whose heart has stopped, and whose heartbeat/pulse has flat lined? They do this by directly injecting drugs into the heart and by applying electric shock to the heart. They attempt this up to 5-7 mins after the heart has stopped – thereafter the damage to the *brain* is huge and they stop trying to revive the person.
And, I think you really do not understand this fact: that it is the brain that is the more crucial organ to consider, when the heart stops (and not the heart) – because brain cells start dying immediately in the absence of oxygen. Within 2-3 mins of the oxygen flow stopping (because the blood flow has stopped), there may be significant and lasting damage to the brain.
When the damage is severe, the natural functions of a person gets revived (heart beating, lungs working, etc) but the person goes into a coma. Why is that?
You accuse others of using circular logic, but I do not think you understand the meaning of circularity in logic. If you do, please point out what is circular in my above argument.
Also, when you have no answers, you just try to drop the topic. For example:
1. Authenticity of scriptures – pls provide evidence
2. Timeline of scriptures – I have provided sufficient evidence of the IVC excavations and then Harrappan excavations, but you cling to an unsupported time line.
3. Time being an unending cycle and doubling up on itself – this is a *theory*. There are similar scientific *theories*. Where is the evidence? All current evidence points to time being linear.
4. Four tusked elephant – pls provide the links to substantiate this claim
Pls do not provide further *assertions* from religious texts – I am not interested in bald statements, which are not supported by data.
Thanks
@Indian:
Do you know I can walk on a bed of red-hot coal? I am serious, I can do this. There is just a technique you need to learn, and you will be able to do this, too. Anyone, who can hold a steady nerve, can do this. There is no faith required.
Cheers
Also, while we are on atheism and rational thought processes, do you know what is the biggest *rational* argument that theists make against atheists:
That atheism is an irrational bet made by an individual. This is because, if god does exist, you are damning yourself to an eternity of hell for saying no such thing exists. Therefore, the rational (economic) thing to do is to believe for your 70 odd years, so that you do not spoil your eternity.
This is actually a compelling argument, at face value.
But, only at face value – the place where theists slip up is that they claim god is actually a loving, rational being.
So, if god is actually loving, and, god forbid, that I am up before her when I am dead and gone, I should be able to take the line that surely her omnipotence and her omnipresence was not affected by my disbelief? And, surely her existence and her feeling of importance was not jeopardized by the lack of my prayers? I am fairly sure that the answers to the above questions should be no, in which case, my eternity should be all right.
On the other hand, if she is a sadistic, irrational being who likes to punish people – then, it is all a matter of probability, isn’t it? If she is on a good mood on the day you appear before her, you are all right. If not, too bad! The best part of this is that everyone, however pious, would have an equal chance of getting kicked in the pants!!!
Cheers
“I think ensuring that Indians have the right interpretation of our scriptures is far, far more important than what outsiders write, isn’t it?”
Patriot, depends on the power and number of audiences/readers the outsiders have. Besides, if Indians themselves get their information from these outsiders, then it is very important to ensure that the outsiders write accurately.
When the time arrives where we Indians start learning about our scriptures from Indian authors, then what you wrote above will come into play.
“So, if god is actually loving..”
“On the other hand, if she is a sadistic, irrational being..”
###########
Why only these two options, and where do these two concepts of god (loving vs. sadistic) come from?
Dear Kaffir:
““So, if god is actually loving..â€
“On the other hand, if she is a sadistic, irrational being..â€
###########
Why only these two options, and where do these two concepts of god (loving vs. sadistic) come from?”
Where do these options come from? My imagination and reading of (hindu and greek) classics. Propose any others that you deem fit.
“Patriot, depends on the power and number of audiences/readers the outsiders have. Besides, if Indians themselves get their information from these outsiders, then it is very important to ensure that the outsiders write accurately.”
Then, we are actually more concerned about PR, is that it? Because, I do not believe that the average Indian learns about vedantic culture in English or from foreign authors?
For the limited purposes of checking where you would get your information, if you were actually searching in English, I did a google search on “punsavan”. This is the result:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Punsavan&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enIN281IN282
I see Hindu Jagruti and assorted other hindu sites on the first page, but no Islamwatch (the article from which resulted in such fiery denunciations from all and sundry).
So, you tell me what should be the course of action now?
Cheers
Very well said, I congratulate you
@patriot
That’s wonderful to know! I believe about that steady nerve. Thats what I was questioning myself how did Shiva stayed on himalaya? So its possible.
I have many questions but right now busy will ask later.
I believe there is no heaven an hell. God doesnot punsihes anyone, our karma is for us only. More purity by heart more one can foresee. Before god catch us Police and CBI will put us in trouble.Still if someone has nerve to do evil accept the consequencieis of what he or she is doing, no one can touch and bend the hair.
Its only consequencies we fear and suffer. All laws are made by human. Just my say! not connecting ny comment. Will join later.
@ Patriot (#107): Have already sent them an email (and submitted a comment via website, which threw up errors).
Will wait for a response from them in the next few days…
If I hear nothing, expect a post on this issue.
Shantanu
@patriot
Did you googled “Women in Hinduism”. And if you have read Abul Kasem on Islam Watch, check for yourself how he opened the post. It was for the pure purpose of degrading women of hinduism. And the same copy of Abul Kasem was circulating at many places. His intention was not in good faith or whatever one can say.
I totaly agree with the need of rebuttal by Raju Maliger. Because many quotes doesnot even exist in veda which Abul Kasem have used to defame Hinduism. Ask him to show that quotes in veda where it exists? Many places translation was totaly wrong. You give that translation to any one who have read Veda( who knows the nature of Hinduism) will come up with the same rebuttal so it was very important to give reply to him. I dont see any wrong in proving right what is wrong.
Horse one, they took so much out of context. How come woman can sleep with horse? See the discription. Is it possible to night out with Horse?. And in their translation they really made this happen. If we cannot believe than how come some author can believe this and gave such meaning to it. That shows their work is sloppy and sleazy.
@Patriot. As far as which are the authentic texts, most scholars (at least those in Religion Departments in Universities in the US) accept that the oral tradition of preserving the Vedas has been remarkably accurate in preserving the text. Thus we do have the “original” texts. They were never written down by the Rishi–only transmitted orally and memorized. Thus,while the accuracy of the transmission is not in question, the actual meaning of the Vedas are, since subsequent generations of priests have forgotten some of the original meaning etc. Scholars find that all renditions of it, whether from North or South, East or West of India are pretty much the same.
As far as the Ithihaasa goes , while the western scholars talk about not privileging one rendition over another, within the Indian tradition we do,in fact, privilege one rendition. Thus, Valmiki’s Ramayana is considered the original although there are many other subsequent Ramayanas and Vyasa’s Mahabharata is also considered the original although many others exist including Shashi Tharoor’s Great Indian Novel.
My interest in the discussion is how this Kaseem’s arguments on the mistreatment of women in Hinduism often mirrors the arguments used by Indian Feminists in their constant battle with Indian (read Hindu) “tradition” which is the evil victimizer of women.
On the issue of soul, I found this excellent dialogue (please do read, all ye believers of soul, even if the text be a little long!):
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3504.htm
(Thanks to Kaffir for pointing me to this site on a different topic)
Now Milinda the king went up to where the venerable Nâgasena was, and addressed him with the greetings and compliments of friendship and courtesy, and took his seat respectfully apart. And Nâgasena reciprocated his courtesy, so that the heart of the king was propitiated.
And Milinda began by asking, 1’How is your Reverence known, and what, Sir, is your name?’
‘I am known as Nâgasena, O king, and it is by that name that my brethren in the faith address me. But although parents, O king, give such a name as Nâgasena, or Sûrasena, or Vîrasena, or Sîhasena, yet this, Sire,–Nâgasena and so on–is only a generally understood term, a designation in common use. For there is no permanent individuality (no soul) involved in the matter.’
Then Milinda called upon the Yonakas and the brethren to witness: ‘This Nâgasena says there is no permanent individuality (no soul) implied in his name. Is it now even possible to approve him in that?’ And turning to Nâgasena, he said: ‘If, most reverend Nâgasena, there be no permanent individuality (no soul) involved in the matter, who is it, pray, who gives to you members of the Order your robes and food and lodging and necessaries for the sick? Who is it who enjoys such things when given? Who is it who lives a life of righteousness? Who is it who devotes himself to meditation? Who is it who attains to the goal of the Excellent Way, to the Nirvâna of Arahatship? And who is it who destroys living creatures? who is it who takes what is not his own? who is it who lives an evil life of worldly lusts, who speaks lies, who drinks strong drink, who (in a word) commits any one of the five sins which work out their bitter fruit even in this life? If that be so there is neither merit nor demerit; there is neither doer nor causer of good or evil deeds; there is neither fruit nor result of good or evil Karma. –If, most reverend Nâgasena, we are to think that were a man to kill you there would be no murder, then it follows that there are no real masters or teachers in your Order, and that your ordinations are void.–You tell me that your brethren in the Order are in the habit of addressing you as Nâgasena. Now what is that Nâgasena? Do you mean to say that the hair is Nâgasena?’
‘I don’t say that, great king.’
‘Or the hairs on the body, perhaps?’
‘Certainly not.’
‘Or is it the nails, the teeth, the skin, the flesh, the nerves, the bones, the marrow, the kidneys, the heart, the liver, the abdomen, the spleen, the lungs, the larger intestines, the lower intestines, the stomach, the fæces, the bile, the phlegm, the pus, the blood, the sweat, the fat, the tears, the serum, the saliva, the mucus, the oil that lubricates the joints, the urine, or the brain, or any or all of these, that is Nâgasena’
And to each of these he answered no.
‘Is it the outward form then (Rûpa) that is Nâgasena, or the sensations (Vedanâ), or the ideas (Saññâ), or the confections (the constituent elements of character, Samkhârâ), or the consciousness (Vigññâna), that is Nâgasena?’
And to each of these also he answered no.
‘Then is it all these Skandhas combined that are Nâgasena?’
‘No! great king.’
‘But is there anything outside the five Skandhas that is Nâgasena?’
And still he answered no.
‘Then thus, ask as I may, I can discover no Nâgasena. Nâgasena is a mere empty sound. Who then is the Nâgasena that we see before us? It is a falsehood that your reverence has spoken, an untruth!’
And the venerable Nâgasena said to Milinda the king: ‘You, Sire, have been brought up in great luxury, as beseems your noble birth. If you were to walk this dry weather on the hot and sandy ground, trampling under foot the gritty, gravelly grains of the hard sand, your feet would hurt you. And as your body would be in pain, your mind would be disturbed, and you would experience a sense of bodily suffering. How then did you come, on foot, or in a chariot?’
‘I did not come, Sir, on foot. I came in a carriage.’
‘Then if you came, Sire, in a carriage, explain to me what that is. Is it the pole that is the chariot?’
‘I did not say that.’
‘Is it the axle that is the chariot?’
‘Certainly not.’
‘Is it the wheels, or the framework, or the ropes, or the yoke, or the spokes of the wheels, or the goad, that are the chariot?’
And to all these he still answered no.
‘Then is it all these parts of it that are the chariot?’
‘No, Sir.’
‘But is there anything outside them that is the chariot?’
And still he answered no.
‘Then thus, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot. Chariot is a mere empty sound. What then is the chariot you say you came in? It is a falsehood that your Majesty has spoken, an untruth! There is no such thing as a chariot! You are king over all India, a mighty monarch. Of whom then are you afraid that you speak untruth? And he called upon the Yonakas and the brethren to witness, saying: ‘Milinda the king here has said that he came by carriage. But when asked in that case to explain what the carriage was, he is unable to establish what he averred. Is it, forsooth, possible to approve him in that?’
When he had thus spoken the five hundred Yonakas shouted their applause, and said to the king: Now let your Majesty get out of that if you can?’
And Milinda the king replied to Nâgasena, and said: ‘I have spoken no untruth, reverend Sir. It is on account of its having all these things–the pole, and the axle, the wheels, and the framework, the ropes, the yoke, the spokes, and the goad–that it comes under the generally understood term, the designation in common use, of “chariot.”‘
‘Very good! Your Majesty has rightly grasped the meaning of “chariot.” And just even so it is on account of all those things you questioned me about– the thirty-two kinds of organic matter in a human body, and the five constituent elements of being–that I come under the generally understood term, the designation in common use, of “Nâgasena.”
For it was said, Sire, by our Sister Vagirâ in the presence of the Blessed One:
‘”Just as it is by the condition precedent of the co-existence of its various parts that the word ‘chariot’ is used, just so is it that when the Skandhas are there we talk of a ‘being.'”‘
‘Most wonderful, Nâgasena, and most strange. Well has the puzzle put to you, most difficult though it was, been solved. Were the Buddha himself here he would approve your answer. Well done, well done, Nâgasena!’
Dear Raju,
Very good article and mind blowing explanation…
But no one respects Indian women in India as written in your article.It’s all good to read not to follow. As it’s my personel experiance.
Regards
S Nadiger
I missed this article
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Dear All: Pl. continue the discussion on “Women in Hinduism” on this post: “Women in Hinduism” – Part II.
Thanks.