I can’t get a job in Mumbai anymore
This is beyond being “funny”
“…(Maharashtra) state Finance Minister Jayant Patil…announced in the state legislative assembly that 80 per cent jobs in companies that will now open units in Maharashtra must go to locals.
…The finance minister also defined the Marathi manoos. Â It has to be a person who has been living in Maharashtra for more than 15 years and knows Marathi, he said.
I fail the test…miserably.
The problem is – in my entire life, I have never lived for 15 years in any single city or state…Who will hire me now?
And quite how they are going to ensure compliance is beyond me (in spite of Shri Patil’s ominous words: “We will be strict…”).
Sadly, this is probably not the last blow to the idea of an Indian/”Bharatiya” identity.
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Of Bangalore, Bengaluru and Fractured Identities
There is a “राषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°” in “महाराषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°”
Image courtesy: Wikipedia
Very easy solution for this! Let all the businees go out of Maharastra. New companies will see different sites in India eliminating Maharastra in their map of businesses. Good! other state will prosper that way. And may be days will not be far whem Maharastrian(as per the definition given 15 years of living in the state) has to migrate and ask for jobs in different state.
This is good time for the business to look out for some other places. Then the scenerio will be Raj Thackerey will be fighting for immigrant in others state. They are selfish so they will change their agenda. They need a lesson. The days are not far. God is every where and takes care of everyone. One day his party people will beg for the jobs for maharastrian in other state. I am not talikng about strictly Maharastrian but as per their definition( Locals). I pray God this happenes.
Dear Shantanu
I think the problem is aggravated when free market policies which attract the best people to the most suitable place (eg. Mumbai, which is a suitable place, with its port and other established facilities) are implemented without the other relevant policies of good governance such as good education.
It should naturally happen – and I’m sure it happens even now in Maharashtra – that about 80% of the jobs in an average industry will go to locals (howsoever defined), particularly the lower jobs requiring lesser skills. People don’t like migrating for a job; they’d prefer to get one close to home and family.
The reason why Maharashtra government is emphasising this is because in some industries it must have failed miserably to upskill its people. For instance, it is possible that in the financial services industry, jobs are going to non-Maharashtrians because Maharashtra doesn’t developed its own skilled people. That is its own problem.
The good thing is, as “Indian” has pointed out, this policy is self-defeating and will sooner or later come to an end. if such barriers are imposed ‘strictly’ then certain industries like finance could quickly migrate out of Maharashtra, further depleting the possibility that Maharashtrians will develop skills in this area.
More problematically for Maharashtra highlighting the local-outsider divide would give Maharashtra an unwelcoming image (even though as I said, in most parts of the world, the locals naturally get over 80% of the jobs anyway!). By sending such a message, Maharashtra would suffer even more, as existing people and industries try to get out as soon as they can. Capital is totally mobile and actively seeks to reduce sovereign risk. When India was a closed economy, it simply left India itself.
All in all, this is a policy of a totally incompetent government. If they enforce this policy they will lose elections as well, as jobs migrate out of the state. Bengal gave that image (with aggressive unions thrown in as a bonus) to the rest of the country for 50 years and Calcutta dropped from India’s wealthiest city to one of its poorest. Now they are frantically trying to get investors back again.
This policy has not one redeeming feature.
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sir,
What an interesting observation by a politician. This waht our friend Mr. Syed in another post in this blog, is trying to do in Paqkistan, trying to form a state of Urdu speaking people, one for Baluchis, one for Pashtun’s etc.
This is how it will end up.
Each one at the others throat.
Let us learn to respect every activity, based on its need and worth and then this problem will get solved. Each one individual has a capability, let us develop it and then there are no Marathi manus, Tamil manus or Keralalite Manu, it is MANUS all by itself.
This is what our ancients decided and gave an opportunity to all. Equality to all recogonised on capability and possibility of delivery.
One must be careful, as otherise we will end up with a group identifying one activity more important than the other and we will have the politicians and mercinaries entering the fray and dividing the people.
This political notice is an eyeopener for true “Bharatiyas” to go back to their roots and prove that each activity is as important than the other.
By the way if you read between the lines another trend of thought relatewd to your site will emerge.
Regards,
vck
Our politicians can never see the root cause of the problem. They try to treat symptoms rather than the actual cause of the problem. They should be increasing investment in education and vocational training. This will enable more locals to be ready for high-paying jobs. Instead by forcing companies to hire locals, they would be indirectly asking companies to leave the state.
A few days ago, I was helping my 6th grader son with his History lesson on the lives of early humans. Interestingly, at the end there was a question asking reasons why early humans (in paleo, meso and neo lithic ages?)moved from place to place and if they can compare it with why people move from one city to another now?
I had a hard time finding any different reasons.
From the time immemorial, all living beings (humans, animals and birds too) have been migrating for better living. This rule is dictated by the nature.
I know my knowledge about politics and governance is pathetic. And I miserably fail to understand all the rationale and logic about such policies :-).
Or, am I teaching wrong fundamentals to my child?!!
Thanks,
Pragya
I agree,
“Natural Laws” that human should not ignore. Selfish people don’t cosider all this and ruins their as well as others well being. Yes, Kolkatta is miserably suffering though they have brainy crowd in past as well as in present. Maharastra is asking their people, pounce upon ready meal without teaching them how to make it, as said in one of the above comments “not making them ready for high paid jobs”. They are not bothered about it as long as locals are served on platter. First step is to stop feeding locals by taking big business out of Maharastra. Let them come with the skills and education required in the field.
What I see, they already know their people’s inability , lack of skills and is now asking them how to snatch and survive without going through struggle which “Aam Admi” goes through and comes out shining. They will never understand the fruit of hard work. But they cannot go far with this strategy, they will suffer hardly. Till now they survive with nepotism on the basis of “aamchi Manus” but when Upites unites they don’t like it. They are asking them to mingle with them by forgetting everything about their home town. Are they following this example? Do they do this when they are out of state? No! as soon as they see other “Marathi Manus” they will start having a feeling “Aamchi manus” and abandons who so ever near them. That is what they are doing in Maharatsra showing their strength and asking others not to show strength. They should learn this first how to mingle and jingle before dictating others. They are on the path of destructing local’s mind, for their political gains and locals dont want to understand this as long as they are getting free jobs.
Jai Hind!
This was bound to happen if you have states formed on linguistic basis – largely Nehru’s contribution! When identities get formed on the basis of one’s language, then you start looking at everyone who speaks a different language as an “outsider”!
If one were to really analyse, Maharashtrians have been the last to react to this (Shiv Sena’s movement in the 60s was a flop). If you look at places like Chennai, Kolkata, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, etc, it is the local language which is the lingua franca in all public places, offices, etc. In Mumbai, the lingua franca is Hindi, not Marathi! The percentage of Marathi speaking populace in the city is rapidly shrinking, because of the sheer influx of “outsiders”. Naturally, there are bound to be misgivings.
The way I look at it, the only 2 ways of treating this problem is:
a) Allow the Maharashtrians the same luxury of “owning” their city like Tamilians in Chennai or Bengalis in Kolkata etc.
OR
b) take away the privilege from everyone. Redraw the state line on some other basis rather than language, say, administrative convenience etc.
Indian, Sanjeev, VCK, Prakash, Pragya and Ravindra: Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.
***
@ Indian: “Let all the businees go out of Maharastra….other states will prosper that way.”
yes that is true…unfortunately that will be a reactive effect…There must be better ways of making other states prosperous…I find it amusing that the Congress High Command has (so far) been conspicuously silent on this statement by their Finance Minister!
***
@ Sanjeev: You say: “...The reason why Maharashtra government is emphasising this is because in some industries it must have failed miserably to upskill its people.”
I think you are being too charitable. I am almost certain that the over-rising factor propelling this demand is sheer populism and myopic vision (i.e. my city/ my state above everything else, national interest, freedom of movement for citizens and right to work be damned).
Yes, the policy is “self-defeating” in the long run…In the short run though, it can create severe disruption in the lives of ordinary, innocent families of migrants. (This by the way, is a side-effect of all outsider vs. insider movements – whether they be in Bangalore, Rajasthan or Assam)…and I can empathise with this having suffered first-hand from it.
So we must strongly condemn and oppose such moves…and not let matters take their natural course. You are spot on when you say, “…this is a policy of a totally incompetent government” not only incompetent, but populist and vision-less…
That said, I am not sure that “if they enforce this policy they will lose elections”…Bengal did have that image but not once did the communists loose their hold on power in the last few decades.
I think there is a *dire* need to create awareness about the inherent shortcomings and disadavantages such policies have…Sadly neither the politicalleadership nor the mainstream media is up to the task.
All of us here are handicapped in several different ways – and there is an increasing chasm between the “aware”/”concerned and the ones that directly affected and ignorant/too deprived to have any options.
***
@ vck: thanks for your comment, as always…
This line intrigued me: “…By the way if you read between the lines another trend of thought related to your site will emerge.”
Are you hinting at the need to create a”Bharatiya” identity or did I miss something?
***
@ Prakash: Well said: “Our politicians can never see the root cause of the problem. They try to treat symptoms rather than the actual cause of the problem.”
Absolutely….That is the single biggest problem, if you ask me…Hence the need for well-meaning and concerned citizens to take the role of political activists and not shy away from enterin active politics…
You may want to consider joining the Freedom Team group…
***
@ Pragya: thanks for the insight (and analogy!).
As you say, fundamentally people have always moved for one reason – to fulfil their basic needs i.e. food and shelter.
Whenever these are threatened (or whenever one sees an opportunity to improve them), one moves…
The *problem* of course is that unlike the stone age, you cannot *solve* conflicting claims on food/shelter by brute force…and the concept of a unifying identity (which will make people give up part of their claim for the sake of others) is yet to evolve in India…
Hence the deprived “Marathi Manoos'” first reaction when hungry is to look at the prosperous “Bhaiyya”, Gujarati, Tamil or Bengali and go after them…
No one has told him that they have as much right on the resources as he has (all being citizens of one country). No one has bothered to explain the concept of an idenity to him. No one has bothered to tell him that development is not a zero-sum game – that one does not have to suffer for the other to prosper.
Cynical politicians see in this a golden opportunity to ingratiate themselves with this hungry man –
by appealing to his basic instincts i.e. turn against the “outsider”…and that is the *root* of this issue…
***
@ Ravindra: You say: “…When identities get formed on the basis of one’s language, then you start looking at everyone who speaks a different language as an “outsider”…” I agree absolutely!
The challenge is to craft an Indian identity strongly rooted in our heritage, culture and ethos…and that has to be a “Bharatiya” identity…It cannot be based on something artificial or something that is not rooted in the socio-cultural milieu..So “Cricket” cannot be the basis for it, nor a shared love of Indian films nor the “English” language (in my opinion).
I think this concept of identity is a challenge that we shy away from – partly because it has no easy answers. I once got into an impassioned debate around this topic but I will keep it for later.
Of the two solutions you have proposed, the second is the more sensible one (and will strengthen national identity in the long run). Sadly, both you and I know which of the two our political leaders are more likely to choose.
That is the real tragedy of India – a self-serving leadership bereft of vision, ideas and ideals…lacking in moral authority and incapable of taking hard decisions.
Dear Shantanu,
It was something which will bring out the true Bharatiya in one. If we were to accept every type of job as a part of the need of a system, the apprehension that I am not good, or my job is inferior or not needed or required, will be killed.
The objective would then be to live along with every type of job, and a healthy acceptance of the need of a person and individual will be felt and the true spirit of the Bharatiya will arise.
The dormant feature that was existent thousands of years ago, was just similair to that which I am giving expression to; if you leave it loose we will once again fall into the trap of bigger and better.
If the job of the UPite, is as recogonised as the Marathi then it will not be a place for politicians to play a game.
It is time that we true Bharatiyas come together formulate a system of life which will suit us and not dependant on these politicians.
Regards,
vck
Dear Shantanu
As I suggested, this kind of populism, being self-defeating (loss of jobs, capital investment), is intrinsically self-limiting. When politicians find capital walking out of the door, they turn around and start giving the messages of nationalism that you have mentioned, namely:
“No one has told him that they have as much right on the resources as he has (all being citizens of one country). No one has bothered to explain the concept of an idenity to him. No one has bothered to tell him that development is not a zero-sum game – that one does not have to suffer for the other to prosper.”
But mine was a theoretical analysis. You have raised a more relevant issue. Somebody must do something about this. If Lokmanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak were in Maharashtra today, we would have heard him speak loudly and clearly in the language you have suggested.
You are right. Those who care for India should come together and fight against incompetent and divisive forces that rule this great country. I would suggest that the couple of members on FTI from Mahrashtra could take this up as an issue to assert the common identity of all Indians and also show the people of Maharashtra how stupid and counterproductive this policy will be for them! And show how hopelessly incompetent the government that talks of such things. Writing a few flyers in marathi/ hindi and distributing them locally would help.
Regards
Sanjeev
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=235&page=13
Good posting By M. V Kamath on Organiser.org
Its disheartening to see that nobody is doing anything against this uproar. All maharastrian leaders are hand in glove, its an matter of “Marathi Manus” so what if they are in different party . Till yesterday nobody bothered today too nobody cares and this gives them boost to divide the country on regional basis. It was one kind of a challenge to test ther strength and roaring in present days.
If I rely on my knowledge than Nathuram Godse, shot dead Mahatma Gandhi because country was divided. Now what this goons are doing? and claiming they are patriotic? Untrustworthy! that is what I can say. They are whining child and doesnot know the meaning of Unity in personal as well is on national level.
vck, Sanjeev, Indian: Thanks for your follow-up comments.
***
Indian: Thanks for the link to Shri Kamath’s article. It is worthwhile read. I think the last few paragraphs from Shri Kamath deserve to be quoted here (excerpts):
“…In this regard, two points need to be made: One is that India is not a confederation of independent States. It is one and indivisible.
No state can claim arbitrary rights to the use of water flowing in a river that passes through one or two other states. …
Such disputes (over sharing of waters) need to be amicably settled, not viciously fought over by stoning buses and damaging public property or getting film stars to take sides.
When it comes to natural resources, they are not the exclusive property of Punjabis or Bengalis, Gujarathis or Rajasthanis, Kannadigas or Tamilians. …
Those who have been indulging in violence both in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu are insulting Bharat Mata. They need to be pulled up sharply.
There are no Kannada or Tamil waters. Or Maharashtrian and Andhra Pradesh waters. All that we have are a Kaveri and a Godavari, just as we have a Narmada or a Ganga. What is true of rivers, is also true of human beings.
We are Indians first; language should not separate us, or geography. It is only when there is free movement of people across one part of the country to another, that we establish our true Indian-ness or Bharatiyata.
Mumbai City, for instance, was not built to its pre-eminence solely by the Marathi manoos. It was the sum-total of efforts made by Parsi entrepreneurs, Gujarati businessmen, Konkan mill workers, Marathi intellectuals, north Indian film stage and Karnatak hoteliers, to mention only a few, to whom credit is due.
The Civil Service is all-Indian. Only talent counts.
The Army is one; so are the Navy and Air Force. They are not divided linguistically. It is time our petty politicians remembered that.
…It is this kind of in-fighting between one kingdom and another in the 18th century that finally enabled the British to conquer India.
…Lord Clive must be laughing in his grave at the antics of our so-called ‘leaders’. They have only brought shame and disgrace to this country we love. …
Sitting pretty in Delhi, while south India is burning makes one wonder what, sort of leaders we have. India’s polity is ‘rotten’ writes The Economist (March 22). No truer words were said.
Dear Sanjivji, I have thought about this issue for long since I have been staying in the city of Mumbai for close to six years now.
I am also a north indian (by birth) and feel extremely agitated by the histrionics that these politicians our coming out with. As far as my reaction to these things are concerned, I share my views whenever i get a chance to speak in forums (atleast once in a month) and also get people to question the rationale of these tactics of government since I know that these things need to be discussed at length in open forums where we can question the assumptions more easily and in a harmonious manner.
I have not shared pamphlets so far though. My take on this is, Mumbai being one of the most densely populated cities in the world, its common citizens (particularly the born and brought up in Mumbai populace) face major challenges every day when they have to travel in local trains or when they have to spend major chunk of their savings on rents etc. This population doesn’t understands the philosophy of Bastiat or Mill or even the tenets of our constitution for that matter. They are dying every day in this city just in the aspiration to ‘live’. Their sons and daughters face problems because they don’t learn English hence can’t even prepare a decent resume.
Negative politicians like Raj Thackrey, instead of encouraging their training start criticising those who speak anything other than Marathi !!! These hapless individuals travel in sub human conditions (which i also do from time to time) and stay in equally worse situation. Deep within everyone realizes that this pressure on infra is increasing on account of unchecked flow of people into the city. The young population is too busy reading the Mumbai Mirror than understanding the economics and politcs of urbanization or development theory.
Now these politicians consider this kind of a situation as an opportunity to provide respite by conveniently transferring the blame to the immigrant population because even when this population comes to work in this city, it doesn’t change its political inclinations. Which means a supporter of Mayawati from UP continues to cherish the BSP and can’t identify himself (women immigrants are rare atleast in the labour class).
These people are easy targets for these politicians since it helps them in diverting the attention of the suffering population from the actual enemy (the politicians) to an unrepresented and unempowered class and also helps them in venting their anger out on them. A third grade politician like Raj Thackrey or that Congress minister for that matter considers this as a special opportunity to make use of the crass energy of the untrained youths of this city and makes use of this opportunity to ensure his vote bank because again he is targetting a section of society with a mind-set.
And mind sets don’t change easily. Putting any time or resource in building them is an investment for a politician. In fact careful work on this can even lead to permanent ideolgies. We have several examples in front of us. Caste based politics according to me is all about that. As we all might be aware, Raj was earlier the head of the youth wing of Shiv Sena from where he draws his support base.
I would say that these kinds of negative thinking can only be checked at family level or at school level but why should the state do any of these things when ignorance is where it draws its strengths from. (These youths are generally municipal school educated.) But thats a different problem.I am sending you a link of a blog of one of the Raj supporters just for you all to get a sense of the quality of the support base on which that politician relies on http://lgsankhe.wordpress.com/2006/03/28/raj-thakres-new-party/I would feel ashamed anyday if my supporters would have this caliber of thinking or communication as displayed by the comments given on the blog. But yes, if i am an astute politician and understand that i need unthinking, gullible yet energetic people to serve my ends, I would thump my chest just as this one is doing right now.
As far as the statement of Patil on reservation of jobs is concerned, thats another dangerous card that he is trying to play again just to prove that there are equal patrons of the Marathi Manoos beyond the Thackrey clan. These self styled incarnations of Samuel Johnsons came up with their own definition of Manoos, in terms of number of yrs stayed in Maharashtra, command over language etc etc.
Again to appease the same harried section of the population that goes out to vote with the same aspiration to see a better city. At this juncture I wonder how the same corporate sector which always gets its due representatives in the form of Mukesh Ambani or Mallya during IPL matches surrounded by giggling bollywood starlets (thats another problem with the market theory which again is a seperate theme of discussion). When these institutions are likely to get affected drastically by such decisions, how can they afford to remain aloof from politics. Its the greatest disservice they do when they forget everything at the sight of pelf.
Why aren’t newspapers flooded with editorials from the Ramdorais or Godrej’s or Ambani’s of the city.
If you ask me as an individual, I have taken a route which insulates me from any of these vibrations (atleast directly) but i can sense their impact of the future generations quite clearly. Thats the reason i get perturbed and want to do something big. But don’t these corporate houses need to be more vibrant about sharing such aspects in open forums. Why the hell does coroprate sector stay aloof from politics, civil society, ngos etc would remain a mystery forever to me.
Unless we are able to tap the energies that are possible through partnerships of the educated yet politically toothless class, I feel its always going to be a tough battle to match the bunch of 1.5 lakh roudies (as was targetted by R. Thackry) to come to Shivaji Park any day- the traditional Shiv Sena stronghold. Till then it would only be left to the likes of Mayawati or Modi to match up to that degree of muscle flexing.
No matter whether they are good for nothing. The principle of democracy gives their vote equal weightage and again reminds me of that statement of Churchill (if i am not mistaken)
‘The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with an average voter.’ I am not arguing against democracy, but my pain point is how to move this mammoth class of educated citizens. How to bring them to the forefront of politics with the same fervour as they have towards the market theory or towards blatant consumerism.
I feel maddended to see the rush in Big Bazars ( a hyper mall) and empty halls where politics is being discussed. I really want to see things changing and i know people are trying, but the progress doesn’t give a lot of hope. They always love to clap when we criticse politicians but as far as participating in the process of governance is concerned, they have decided to remain undecided. I have spoken to several people in several forums. But how to awaken the ‘educated’ white collared workers to make them do something is a mystery that i would like to learn and get ideas from you all.
I am willing to try them out for sure
RegardsUjjwal
*** COMBINED COMMENT ***
It seems it is my lot to be the devil’s advocate on this forum! But, since some one has to do it, I will!
RE: Maharashtra and AB and jobs for the boys – Disclosure: I have lived in Maharashtra for a few decades and I see the problem differently from those folks outside the state that seek to impose on us.
1. It is nice to say that we are one country, one nation, one people and then go crap on one state. And, then expect the people of that state to tolerate it. I want to ask why should we tolerate this?
2. I have made this point before and I make it again here – just because you are poor and hungry is no reason to break the law. I see no reason why we should tolerate illegal squatters in our city (Mumbai) and Maharashtra because they can not make a living in UP or Bihar.
3. Economics – People come to Maharashtra for jobs because the govt of Maharashtra has had progressive economic policies for decades (unlike the whore-politicians of UP/Bihar/MP/Bengal) and this has led to strong economic growth of the state. Why should the state not reserve the benefits of its
policies for its “own” people who have had the sense to vote for sensible politicians as opposed to the people in the aforementioned states who only vote for caste? Why should people not suffer the consequences of their action? And, if that is “anti-national”, why can we not retain the entire profits that the state makes in the form of taxes so that we can build out our infrastructure further, instead of subsidising the whores of UP/Bihar/Bengal, etc in the form of tax cross-subsidies? Either we get to
keep all our jobs or we get to keep our money. The country can not rape us on both accounts.
4. Why should UP and Bihar get to elect more MPs each to the Parliament, as compared to Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and AP each? Why should political power lag our economic power so much? And, for people following history, may I remind that the US War of Independence was fought on similar grounds. And, if number of MPs are linked to population, why can jobs not be so linked? Think about it.
5. As for Raj Thackeray being branded a “lumpen”, please read his actual speeches and understand
the nuances. His new party has more “intellectuals” and professionals than any of the other parties in Maharashtra. The educated, middle-class maharashtrian, who is fluent in english thank you, supports Raj Thackeray – why is that? Think about this, too.
Personally, I am unable to support any campaign against Raj Thackeray unless we can answer the question as to why UP and Bihar gets more seats in Parliament and what is our position on this aspect. And, why should the various politicians of UP and Bihar not come in for an equal amount of criticism as Raj, since they are directly responsible for this problem.
***
An additional point that occured to me while reading M V Kamath’s article, something that he missed and most people seem to forget so easily:
One of the key reasons that people aggregate and form societies and not stay separately as invidividuals is economics in nature. Many, if not most, goods can not be produced economically by an invidual, but can be done so as an aggregation. And, this was one of the key drivers as man moved from being a hunter-gatherer to a more agrarian, collective based society that evolved into the nation states of today.
However, the underpinning of the political power of these states is still economic power – it is the reason why the US is actually a super-power and Russia is no longer so, it is the reason why China and India are suddenly so hot and in the news, while namibia and zaire are not. It is the reason why
most wars have been fought, and continue to be fought even today.
And, it is the reason why Raj Thackeray’s demands are actually economic in nature, and not language/origin. We can choose to ignore this and respond with the usual platitudes of one nation, one people, etc or we can delve deeper to find out why such demands find resonance with the people (not why politicians make such demands, that is too easy!). The biggest mistake we can make is to assume that the people are ignorant. They are not, they are reacting based on their realities. We need to understand these realities.
And, Economics is the reason why the South of India could break away from the North, and form a separate Federation of Indian States. Since our Independence, the Southern and the mineral rich states (bihar, orissa, jharkhand) have been systematically raped by a greedy, corrupt and power-hungry/power-accumulating centre in Delhi, supported by the MP block of UP and the IAS (single majority community of Up-ities). And, if this is not reversed over the next 20-25 years, then a civil war and/or break-up of India is quite likely. Please do not attack me for the conclusion but do
think about why this could happen.
And, this is why a truly federal structure is needed in India.
***
Dear Ujjwal,
I have tried to answer some of the points that you have raised in my comments but if you have a specific question, I would be happy to take that on.
And, as far as the middle class goes, did you not know that they have seceded from politics and built themselves gated communities! : )
Cheers
Thanks for being a devil’s advocate, Patriot.
Always useful (a great amount of good always comes out of opposition). I do hope you don’t believe in these points, though. I’ll discuss them one by one – and extract value wherever I can.
First, a paragraph from “Breaking Free of Nehru” (chapter 2) Online notes, at http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/BFN-Notes.doc
“Indian citizens generally do not feel comfortable in migrating from one part of the country to the other. There is doubt in their minds about whether they will be able to adjust to the culture of the new place. We also have numerous geographical zones in India where ‘outsiders’ are prohibited from buying land or even visiting without special permits. An Indian can readily buy land in Australia but not
in Meghalaya, Kashmir, or numerous other parts of India. An Indian tourist can visit any part of Australia, but the same Indian citizen can’t go to Arunachal Pradesh without a special permit. This is
untenable for a country which aspires to be free. There also seems to be no place in India for people who have moved on beyond their traditional culture (whatever their reason). In brief, we do not find
the openness of mind and social intermingling that is crucial for India to become a truly welcoming and free country.”
Second, a paragraph from the main book (I had to shrink the main book because it had become too long according to the publisher): “While Western societies like Australia, each with migrants from 140
countries or more, are engaged in debates on the challenges of becoming multicultural societies, India has not yet overcome basic parochial pressures. We need to robustly challenge the caste system,
tribal and language barriers, and the ‘son of the soil’ policies.
Everyone in free India must be made to feel comfortable and welcome when they move to other parts of India.”
I hardly felt I was an Indian when I lived in India. It is only after leaving India that I have become a genuine Indian.
My father migrated from erstwhile West Panjab (now Pakistan) in 1947, and got a job in a ‘central service’ – he had 22 transfers in his life, and I studied in 6 schools (7 if you add a pre-school in Patna)
– see details at: http://www.linkedin.com/in/sabhlok. His brothers and sisters scattered everywhere in India, and my cousins have scattered everywhere in the world. I felt the whole of India was my home. I have friends in every part of India.
When I moved from Haryana cadre of the IAS to Assam in 1984 upon marrying my Assamese batchmate Smita, an Assamese IAS fellow officer said to me he didn’t want me there in Assam – they could apparenty “take care” of it themselves. I therefore started as being an unwanted person. I did start feeling at home a little later in Assam, the state I have stayed the longest in my life – for 8 years, but that was because I was deeply enmeshed within the society. I had relatives everywhere! But there had been an agitation just before I joined Assam, in which many Bengalis who had settled there for generations did feel as outsiders. Similarly while I lived in Meghalaya for just over a year, I got the sense they don’t like ‘outsiders’ very much.
It is only in USA while studying and in Australia that I could finally breathe freely as an Indian.
Now to your points:
1. It is nice to say that we are one country, one nation, one people and then go crap on one state. And, then expect the people of that state to tolerate it. I want to ask why should we tolerate this?
I don’t think anyone here is ‘crapping’ on one state. The campaign will be against a new policy being created to splice Maharashtra off from India. That is surely a matter of grave concern. FTI would
always fundamentally oppose such policies anywhere – at least that is my view!
2. I have made this point before and I make it again here – just because you are poor and hungry is no reason to break the law. I see no reason why we should tolerate illegal squatters in our city (Mumbai) and Maharashtra because they can not make a living in UP or Bihar.
Is the policy about squatters? I thought it was about reservation for locals in new jobs. The new policy doesn’t say that 80% of the new openings among squatters are to be reserved for locals.
3. PART 1 Economics – People come to Maharashtra for jobs because the govt of Maharashtra has had progressive economic policies for decades (unlike the whore-politicians of UP/Bihar/MP/Bengal) and this has led to strong economic growth of the state. Why should the state not reserve the benefits of its policies for its “own” people who have had the sense to vote for sensible politicians
I don’t think Maharashtra had particularly progressive economic policies – just a notch better than the BIMARU states. Much of its development was related to its past history as a pre-independence development by the British who founded Mumbai as a port and major administrative HQ and later when it became a centre of film industry.
The whole of India has been messed up in the past 60 years, including Mararashtara. Further, it has been built also by the sweat and toil of the waves of migrants who came to the state, not merely by its politicians who are reputedly more corrupt than average.
why can we not retain the entire profits that the state makes in the form of taxes so that we can build out our infrastructure further, instead of subsidising the whores of UP/Bihar/Bengal, etc in the form of tax cross-subsidies? Either we get to keep all our jobs or we get to keep our money. The country can not rape us on both accounts
Please please! Patriot, do let us have gentle language. I can see how this will end up. Everyone in India can say the same thing. Panjab – for others taking away its food, Assam, for others taking
away its oil, Bihar for others taking away its iron ore. Where is this to end? In a family (a country is a large family) each person should do the best he can, and allow equal treatment to all. In the case of a country, income taxes equalise things – no money is stolen from the poor anywhere; only taken from rich people from Mumbai, for instance, to help the country more broadly. Don’t forget these rich
people wouldn’t exist without the markets the rest of India provides.
They choose to live in Mumbai but they do business with the remotest corners of India. So the money in a way goes back to where it came from.
4. Why should UP and Bihar get to elect more MPs each to the Parliament, as compared to Maharashtra, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and AP each? Why should political power lag our economic power so much? And, for people following history, may I remind that the US War of Independence was fought on similar grounds. And, if number of MPs are linked to population, why can jobs not be so linked? Think about it.
Why not attract the entire country to Mararashtra and rule India? Increase immigration, make Mararashtra more attractive. After that, demand more MPs!
Re. Raj Thackeray being branded as a “lumpen”
I don’t think that was implied, but I agree, if that is the impression being cast, then let us change it.
Regards
Sanjeev
Very well said Sanjeev Sabhlok. Hats Off!
Thackerey parivar sunbaths on the glory of “Shivaji” by saying “Agar na hote Shivaji to ho jaati sabki sunnat”. But by claiming on shivaji, they cannot become shivaji. They come nowhere in comparison to shivaji because today “marathi manoos” who claims to be Hindu is busy doing sunnat of Hindus.
Jai Hind
Ujjwal, Patriot, Sanjeev: Thanks for enriching the debate…There is a rich seam of thoughts here which I would like to respond to – but may not have the time to do before the weekend..
Until then, please do keep commenting and sharing your views here…
1. We need to understand, Bharat is an Union of Pradesh/Provinces (Samyukta Ganarajya). Original provinces were created based on language. Language is one of the strong parameters of a culture, in fact the main parameter.
2. Two Pakistans (East and West) could not stayed together, despite their creation was based on religion (Muhamedism). They fall apart, mainly due to language factor -Bangla in East and Urdu in West, and Urdu as national language. East Pakistani Bangla-speaking muslims found it unfair to learn Urdu, at the cost of their own language Bangla.
3. In case of Bharat, most provinces are linguistic province (language as sole parameter of creation). Some newly created provinces are based on economic factors, e.g. Uttarakhand, Jharkhand, Chattishgarh etc.
4. Every province have their unique culture surrounding language and they are proud of it. When a person migrat from one province to another, he/she need to keep in mind to respect the local culture and language. What is the problem in learning another Bharatiya language, if that place providing bread and butter?
5. North Bharat (particularly Bihar/UP) people always want to impose their will on others (that is called dadagiri, bullying), but never the otherway. They speak only one language Hindi and its variations, and some learn english in schools. But they want others to learn Hindi (I call Hiurdu, a few Hindi words and remaining Urdu, or Hi Urdu language) and accept their way of life.
6. I fully support, I mean 100%, what Raj said. I support because, I love my culture/language and I respect his culture/language. If I have to live in Maharastra, I shall learn Marathi and assimilate with local culture (without loosing my own). I have seen Raj lectures, I couldn’t find any wrong sayings. Media twisted his words, in fact fabricated, and created sensations so that it sales like hot potatos and politicians played their games of vote-banks. But the real issue, what Raj highlighted, was burried. By abusing him, we can’t get out of the truth.
7. Let we don’t play with emotions, and respect each others culture and way of life. The strength of Bharat lies in Unity in Diversity and Diversity in Unity.
Bharat
=====
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
I am not North India here. But this is the issue of India so I am commenting here.
Nobody can learn language by the will of others, its personal choice whether to learn or not. They were not that big officials who requires to learn languages. So person moving to different parts of India will end up whole life learning different language? Does our constituiton ask us to learn different languages of India? Who is the Raj to prescribe and describe this to citizen of India?
Its just an excuse and on this pretex t he wants to strengthen the Marathi ties and by asking others not to show the strength. If one see the history they have problem with everyone. Gujarati, Tamil and now North Indian. Greedy wants to keep everything for oneself. They wants all that jobs nothing else.
By the way Mumbai should not feel that great and big and they are not the only state who is feeding whole of India. Many states of India has migrants and are doing their jobs. Nobody is asking any such things what Raj is asking for. This is just an arrogancy.
This is not the way a country can be united, one should find the better way. But he cannot find it as he has selfish motive.
Jai Hind
***
Yes I do agree that one should try to learn and understand language of the state where they reside but it takes time, it doesnot happen overnight.
I have seen many Indian origin(old generation) people in USA who cannot speak english, they are surviving on little english and American understand that. And now their youngsters are well versed in English. So it takes time to accept others culture and language.
But I dont agree what Raj is pretending to be doing.
I have tried to put some thoughts on the Raj Thackeray issue on my blog. My post may be covering some different dimensions. Kindly read and respond…
http://rightunderthenose.blogspot.com/2008/05/redeemer-of-marathi-maanus.html
I have been following the comments of some of the chavinistic sub nationals, ironically with names like Bharat, Patriot etc. etc. etc.
I would like to make few points
1. There are MORE Maharastrians residing in North THAN North Indians in Maharstra, NOIDA, DELHI, Uttaranchal, Gujarat, Rajasthan is full of them, in addition to huge number residing in Jhansi, Agra, Bhopal, Gwalior. AND FIRST OF ALL USING RAJ THACKREY’S LANGUAGE NORTH IS NOT THEIR “BAAP KA RAJ”. EVEN TATANAGAR IN BIHAR IS FULL OF THEM, AS IS EVEN SMALL GAJRAULA WITH ITS INDUSTRY, FIRST THEY SHOULD BE OUT OF IT
2. Raj says Chatt should be celeberated on Ganga not in Mumbai, taken, BUT MARATHIS HAVE NO RIGHT ON GANGA THAN, and huge numbers who come to Varanasi, Haridwar etc. SHOULD BE BANNED AS THEY HAVE NO RIGHT ON GANGA .
3. Contrary to the impression tried ti being created THE FACT is that Maharstrians engage much more in Dadgiri THAN any other person. They form a separate “nation” everywhere and it is actually till now the absence of sound retaliation against them that cowards like Raj are barking.
4. First Let all Maharastrians buzz of North or South and By the way it is these people who have problems with everybody, specially this Thackrey family. They have problems with Karnataka now, when there is a heavy presence of Maharastrians in Karnataka jobs, they have/had problems with Tamils / Malayalees, with Gujratis (though 90% of money invested in Mumbai is Gujrati and Marwari), while all the Bhaandi washers in Gujarat (the scums in Raj language, are invariably Marathis),. and even between them as between Dalit Panthers and Shiv Sena etc etc etc
5.They, especially the Thackrey LOONS invoke the Name of Shivaji, again and again, but follow the policies of another GEM of their state, the greatest terrorist of 20th century MOHD ALI JINNAH
6. By the way, it is OTHER STATES which are subsidizing these so called patriots, Bharat’s etc. Its Gujarat and MP which is supplying water and electricity to this state. It is Panjab, UP, MP etc which supplies most of Wheat and ALMOST ALL OF RICE AND OILSEEDS, with its fertile alluvial soil. Maharastra with its black cotton and red soil grows, (with rock just few cms below the soil); mostly Jowar, Bajra, millets or just wild grass etc.
7. TO THEM. AND AS FOR JOBS ONLY 4.4% OF MAHARASTRIANS MONEY IN MUMBAI, OR MAHARSTRA. It is mainly Gujrati, Punjabi, and Marwari money and not Maharstrian
7. As for tax subsidy, they should READ the Govt bulletins. IT IS MAHARASTRA WITH ITS MOSTLY AGRARIAN POPULATION WHICH PAYS THE LEAST INCOME TAX, because IT is not there for farmers and gets the maximum benifit due to agricultural subsidy, specially due to dryland farming. Keep your taxes but no subsidy or supply from others and let’s see
8. The matter of fact is Yes WE SPEAK HINDI AND PROUDLY DO THAT AND IF THINGS CARRY THIS WAY WE WON’T ALLOW MARATHIS HERE TO SPEAK MARATHI, IF THEY WANT TO BE HERE, THIS IS NOT THEIR “BAAP’S” PLACE AND ALL BAKWAS AND ENG-MARATHI.
9. AND by the way it is only the Jinnah’s “manoos putras like Raj and his supporters whop
@ SeaLion: Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I would appreciate if you could keep a few things in mind…It will help us have a healthy discussion here.
a] Pl. avoid writing in ALL CAPS…This does not look pleasing and is widely considered the equivalent of shouting.
b] Avoid personal comments and abuse
c] Substantiate your arguments with facts – they make it look a lot better and credible.
Now to your points:
1] By talking about “Marathis” and “Maharashtrians”, you are falling right into the verbal trap laid by Raj and his supporters – and strengthening the “us” vs. “them” feeling. Please remember, we are all Indians first, everything else second.
2] ” THE FACT is that Maharstrians engage much more in Dadgiri THAN any other person. They form a separate “nation” everywhere and it is actually till now the absence of sound retaliation against them that cowards like Raj are barking.”
This is a sweeping, unhelpful statement that also borders on being abusive. I am letting it stay for now but will be forced to delete it in future. Please be careful with yoru words and do not make statements that you cannot substantiate (as in “The FACT is…”
3] “…First Let all Maharastrians buzz of North or South”..Again, very unhelpful to a discussion. Please respond to specific points.
4] “…Its Gujarat and MP which is supplying water and electricity to this state. It is Panjab, UP, MP etc which supplies most of Wheat and ALMOST ALL OF RICE AND OILSEEDS, with its fertile alluvial soil. “
This is a good point. Do you have any figures?
5] “…IT IS MAHARASTRA WITH ITS MOSTLY AGRARIAN POPULATION WHICH PAYS THE LEAST INCOME TAX…”
Do you have a reference or a source?
6] Finally, do have a look at Ravindra’s post from which I am taking some excerpts below. I would be very interested in your response.
***
@ Ravindra: I am appending some of the points made in your post here. I found them thought-provoking and having some merit. I hope you do not mind. They will be helpful in pushing this discussion further.
*** EXCERPTS from RAVINDRA’s POST ***
…What Raj is doing is not new. Neither is it unique to Maharashtra alone. Awakening the linguistic identity of a populace and instilling a sense of injustice and hurt pride in them is the easiest way to get ahead in Indian politics.
…the “Marathi maanus” propaganda is neither without basis nor has it failed to evoke strong support among the locals, particularly in the larger cities like Mumbai. The ever-increasing influx from other states is getting a bit tiresome. There is a feeling among the locals that the outsiders bring in their own alien culture and never make any attempts to harmonise themselves with the local ones. There is also the sentiment that the outsiders look at say, Mumbai, just as a place to milk and make money and then go back to their roots in their home states. These feelings are not unjustified….”
…the UP-Biharis, who are currently the target of the MNS, these have increasingly begun to assert their presence in the state. …The celebration of the UP diwas was totally uncalled for. Worse, the UP-Biharis are finding influence with the local politicians who are finding their sheer numbers a convenient vote bank. The increasing clout is represented by the cabinet minister Kripashankar Singh, who is from UP, but now a minister in Maharashtra.
…As Raj Thackeray in his May 3rd carefully drafted speech outlined, language chauvinists from all states are guilty of poisoning minds. Many of the arguments put forward by him are not easy to refute. He read out a statement attributed to Sonia’s partner in govt, Anbumani Ramadoss, who has warned Dravidians against Rajnikant’s attempts to come into the centerstage of TN politics. This, despite, Rajnikant (who is a Maharashtrian) has completely transformed himself into a Tamilian and is a hero to the locals there.
We know of language chauvinists in other states like Andhra, Karnataka etc.
…in Mumbai, you need not really know Marathi. Hindi is good enough. That shows the liberal attitude of Maharashtrians. It is this liberal attitude which politicos like Raj Thackeray is trying to change for his electoral gains.
…Not easy. In a country where states are drawn on linguistic basis (a Nehru legacy), we must be prepared for hardening of such identity differentiation. Only if you redraw the states on some other basis, will the language identity be dented. To take the poison out of Raj’s bite, we have to first take away the luxury that chauvinists from other states have.
Then, and only then, can we look at Raj Thackeray in the eye and tell him to shut up!
*** End of Excerpts ***
@ Ujjwal, Patriot, Sanjeev, Bharat, Indian: I still owe all of you a reasoned response…Hopefully over the weekend.
***
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
This is the comment I posted on Ravindra’s blog
Hi Ravindra
Chennai, Banglore, and other states where local language is given importance because it is not a hub and has not flourished yet(I can say not with the help of migrants)the way mumbai has. Mumbai has flourished due to contribution of migrants, locals and businesses. Film industry is one of it which brings many migrants to the state particularly Mumbai. Other state has no such status what Mumbai is enjoying. So it is very simple that with status also comes responsibilities and that is sharing. One cannot claim over state by keeping millions who have helped Mumbai to reach this stage.
Raj is acting like an uneducated, illiterate man full of anger and hatred. Many Marathis and others are residing outside country. And their work has been recognoised. So why Mumbai fails to recgonise the hardship and contribution of outsiders.
Second thing, there was uproar for Gujaratis, Tamilians in the past and today it is turn of Upities and God knows who will be tomorrow.
As a welbehaved man he should first recognise the contribution of outsiders and than take a step to prevail law and order. Is this the way to drive out people by force, threatening, and killing.
What gives Raj authority to do so? Locals are enjoying the free rides given by this politicians so they praise Raj and the party.
Why “aamchi marathi” is important over “Aamchi desbandhu”. Every state faces some sort of problems but you cannot claim everything in the state for locals.
And Raj is born in India he knows the problems of our country very well. He is not just woke up one day and finds out.
For an experiment forget other big multinational business just take film indusrty to some other state. And watch the result. Half of your Mumbai will be empty. So it is not the migrants who are causing problems but flourising business is the headache for Raj.
***
Well said SeaLion
Raj is suggesting every Indians to do so. “you reap what you saw”
Locals have enjoyed blessings of this Thackerey parivar, so they will take side of them only. No matter he divides India or kills people.
From I can’t get a job in
Hi Shantanu
You may have warned SeaLion, I understand that . But he is not all that wrong. Patriot has also posted this kind of comments in the past.
The thing is we normally accept all that wrong behind the doors. We all may be having relatives who are Maharastrians too. But when fighting for the injustice I tell them on their face and they accepts this politely.
But I will leave upon God. God is all powerful not Raj.
@ Indian: Thanks for the follow-up. I will respond to everyone in a day or two.
P.S. I think you are right…I may have been too harsh on SeaLion.
***
@ SeaLion: I did not mean to shut you up…but my humble request is to please use gentler language…Thanks.
P.S. I am looking forward to your follow-up remarks.
I stand by my comments, especially the two most relevant ones:
1. Cross-subsidy – I would urge Sealion and others to actually look up the data before posting. Maharashtra, Gujarat, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu are net givers to the Republic of India, in terms of tax income. UP, Bihar, Bengal, MP are net takers. I am not sure whether people know this or not but over 90% of the Central govt’s income comes from excise and customs duties and corporate income tax. Individual income tax accounts a for a small fraction of the total and the cost of collection accounts for nearly 80% of the receipts (source: NIC). And, if Maharashtra gets electricity or wheat from MP or bengal or wherever, we PAY the market rate for it, we do not get it for free or at a subsidised rate. So, I would urge anyone who wants to comment on the economics to at least do some homework and not make random silly statements. I am against this cross-subsidy between states as that breeds inefficiency and there is no incentive for a state to improve. And, we have over 60 years of evidence to support this statement.
2. Link the number of parliamentary seats to GNP per capita and not the number of people in any state – the reason politicians of UP and Bihar do not care for economics is that they are being subsidised by the better run states in India, without any penalties being imposed on them. Given that the poor have more children (economic reasons, validated by plenty of research and data) than the rich, and given that the number of MPs is linked to the population of a state, this is a nice little virtual cycle for the politicos of UP and Bihar. If we instead break the link with population, and link it to GNP per capita, then it should be interesting to watch the results.
This is not about language, folks, this is about economics, and it is about being able to use the money that we generate and not see it go down a black hole in UP or Bihar.
And, I also stand by my statement, that the status of Mumbai and Maharashtra today is due to the progressive economic policies followed by the govt. I disagree with Sanjeev that the policies were only marginally better than the other states, because if that was the case, then Maharashtra today would be worse off compared to UP or bihar. This is because we do not have any natural resources, (coal, iron, water, wood), which are even comparable to the riparian states and we did not have any industry either in 1947.
Yes, we did have a port, but that hardly helps if you do not have your industry or plantations, which can use the port to ship out or in. Shipping goods for others does not amount to much, I am afraid, except to benefit some traders, which can probably benefit a city but not a state. Also, Kolkata had a much more developed port than mumbai at independence, and it used to be the capital city of British india for a long time, before they moved to Delhi. So, the British bit does not wash.
So, I would be happy to close the borders of Maharashtra, retain all our taxes and deal with the rest of a country on a stand alone basis. We will see who gains from that.
BTW, why are we so focussed on Raj Thackeray? The jobs reservation comment was made by the Finance Minister of Maharashtra, a Congress politician.
Dear Patriot
I’m sorry to hear strong views in favour of the isolation of Maharashtra and against the basic democratic principle of one-man-one-vote for each citizen of India.
My understanding that India is one nation (India issues only one passport), despite the various problems of mobility I have referred to earlier. But now that I hear highly educated Indians questioning this basic premise in one form or other, I am deeply concerned.
In particular, dear Patriot, why would you be happy to close the borders of Maharashtra? That is a very strong statement – it virtually amounts to support for secession. But if Indians have to join the rank of developed nations, India will need free trade, open markets, best practice regulation and world-best policy. No blocks on economic or social mobility within the country will help Indians – no matter where they live or what language they speak or religion they practice.
This proposal to block the borders within this single nation has alarm bells ringing in my mind. My uncles and their families have lived in Maharashtra for over 50 years after being booted out of erstwhile West Panjab upon partition. A number of my cousins live in various cities in Maharashtra. Should they be made into footballs to be kicked around the moment they settle and feel ‘at home’ in India? They are refugees in this so-called land named “India” which everyone claims (at least in patriotic song and national anthems!) extends from the Hindu Kush to the Bay of Bengal, and from Kashmir to Kanya Kumari. But they moment they want to live in any part of this “India” they are kicked out! Because there is no place called ‘India’ in India. How can so-called Indians flourish if every 50 years they are to be kicked about like a football from one part of the so-called “nation” to the other?
Maybe we need to get rid of the Nehruvian blunder of linguistic states – if these cause such grief. If that can’t be done easily then could people allocate a few square miles of land somewhere in the world and call it “India” – for pepole like me and my unfortunate family booted out from one part of India to the other. As I said, I never felt truly welcome in India as an Indian. So why not give an island to Indians, and you, others, call yourself something else? All I need is a place free of caste or tribal differences, religious hatred, and linguistic parochialism. I will then start working for developing that little island as the world’s greatest nation.
I am truly dumbfounded. I request you to allay my concerns and significant dismay! Please let all educated Indians speak only in one voice – for the advancement of Freedom in a united India. Let there be complete freedom of occupation, freedom of movement, and freedom of trade in this single nation. Let India get the chance at least for a few decades to flourish as one nation.
Can we give this almost mythical concept of “India”, a concept widely praised in song and slogans (such as “Mera Bharat Mahaan”, “India shining”, “Mere Desh Ki Dharti Sona Ugle”, “Sare Jahaan Se Accha”), but a concept that so few people seem to actually believe in, a chance to become a nation for the first time in its long history, please!
Or can one become an Indian only after leaving India?
Will the educated people (and Patriots!) speak in one voice against parochialism, please!
Regards
Sanjeev
Sanjeev very well said. Hats Off!
Shantanu, Hats off! for your this statement.
“The challenge is to craft an Indian identity strongly rooted in our heritage, culture and ethos…and that has to be a “Bharatiya” identity…It cannot be based on something artificial or something that is not rooted in the socio-cultural milieu..So “Cricket” cannot be the basis for it, nor a shared love of Indian films nor the “English” language (in my opinion).
I think this concept of identity is a challenge that we shy away from – partly because it has no easy answers. I once got into an impassioned debate around this topic but I will keep it for later.
Of the two solutions you have proposed, the second is the more sensible one (and will strengthen national identity in the long run). Sadly, both you and I know which of the two our political leaders are more likely to choose.”
Shantanu and Sanjeev: Not only for your views and opinions but for every efforts of yours, It is always truly patriotic. I Salute! both of you and many who put thier nation first above everything. This is the highest respect we can offer to our army who is on border for not any Maharastrian, Hindi, Bengali or Gujarati but for every Indian. Lets not make their efforts and sacrifices bilittle. “Wisdom is not everyone’s cup of tea, it comes to those who really deserves”.
Jai Hind!
I can openly say hypocrisy. I read somewhere, Uddhav is alumini and his son is ” Bombay Scottish” student. Why do they go in English school?. They shoud have gone into local Marathi medium school!!. They could have enhanced the importance of our Marathi language by going in such school! Oh no! did they missed this opportunity of showing true love for “Maharastra”. Or do they lack courage?
Once they start taking education in Marathi and then they can pay high respect to our culture and language or rest they are just making storm in a cup.
Jai Hind!
Sanjeev,
Good to see your reply on this post.
NO, I am NOT advocating an isolationist stance for either myself or Maharashtra or for any state in our Republic of India.
When I said let us close the borders, I meant the borders for tax purposes – surely that is self -evident from my previous post ? Happy to welcome all the people of India to work in Maharashtra, but will retain all the taxes generated in Maharashtra for the benefit of Maharashtra.
Why is there no reasoned debate or logic about why the above is not correct? Why should we NOT press for economic policies that are more efficient and that force the politicians to adopt more progressive economic policies so that people can remain and work productively in their own states (if mobility is really such a big deal, which I do not agree to, especially for the current generation, rural or urban).
We, who live in Mumbai/Maharashtra, are sick of seeing our taxes being used to build metros and flyovers in Delhi or down a blackhole in UP and Bihar, while our own infrastructrure is bursting at the edges.
Sanjeev/Indian, why should we tolerate this? And, after having tolerated it for 60+ years and seeing no results of the cross-subsidies except to see the politicians of UP and Bihar get rich, while the people of those states still having to migrate to find work?
Clearly, this is not working.
And, Sanjeev, don’t you think that the people of Maharashtra will WANT to secede seeing the rotten deal that they have been getting for the past 60 years and still continue to get?
Let us not get all emotional and sentimental, if we can not answer why we should tolerate this economic tyrnanny?
Cheers
Dear Patriot
I glanced thro’ your post a few days ago but didn’t get time to respond. Sorry for the delay.
My objection does not relate to possible better ways of sharing taxes – that issue wasn’t even on the agenda so far. The issue, as I understand it very clearly, is about jobs for ‘local’ people, with other Indians being treated as second class citizens in their own country.
As far as tax sharing goes, there is a process that Maharashtra is involved with: the Finance Commission. I’m with you that there may be a case for a greater share of taxes flowing to Maharashtra – but that is not the issue under discussion. I’m happy to discuss that separately, but not here.
I am discussing just one issue on this particular blog post of Shantanu: Are Indians entitled to move freely, set up houses, businesses, etc., anywhere they want to in India, or are they not?
In brief: Is this ONE INDIA, or is this not?
The host of other problems you and others have raised (sleeping on footpaths, etc. etc.) are related to the terrible mismanagement we find in India by corrupt governments in Maharashtra, Bihar, etc., or the Centre. That is why the Freedom Team exists today – to help generate leaders who will deliver world-class governance to India – to all parts of India.
I’m therefore happy to discuss your issue: “Why should we NOT press for economic policies that are more efficient and that force the politicians to adopt more progressive economic policies so that people can remain and work productively in their own states”. Indeed, the policies of FTI will work strongly in that direction, making Bihar the next Singapore.
But this bit is completely non-negotiable and must be agreed to first whether a person is from Bihar or wherever in India: he or she has an equal right to jobs anywhere in India. There are no second class citizens in India based on the place they were born.
If we can’t agree on this basic issue we can’t discuss other things, for then we are not talking of one country but potentially thousands of countries. India continues to interest me, but not the countries of Maharashtra or Bihar. So the question is only one: Is India one country or not?
Regards
Sanjeev
Dear Sanjeev,
I categorically say that I believe in the following axioms:
1. Any Indian can move and settle down in any part of India, including the north-east and Kashmir
2. Any Indian can apply for and get a job in any part of India, and shall not be faced with any discrimination as a result of her action
3. No Indian is entitled to break the law under the guise of poverty
4. No Indian is entitled to put up a shanty illegally in any open land, irrespective of whether that is govt land or private land.
I hope that makes my position crystal clear to you and any other reader on this blog.
Now, if you do not mind, let us discuss why this is such a political hot button issue in Mumbai/Maharashtra ….. and, why this issue is not going to be swept under the carpet, irrespective of how many platitudes we may mouth. This is going to be THE election issue next year in Maharashtra and if you can not accept that, you *may be* living in an imaginary world. : )
If we are unable to discern the underlying economic reasons for a political struggle and decide to concentrate only on the symptoms, and not the causes, then I am afraid we are doomed to repeat this cycle many times over and over …… Kashmir, Punjab, Assam, Nagaland, Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra …… the roll call will keep going on.
Unfortunately, I have only seen people addressing the symptoms (Raj Thackeray, MNS and Shiv Sena) here, and not the root causes (allocation of taxes, funding of development programs in Maharashtra). Politicians of limited intellect will, of course, focus on the symptoms, but the unfortunate reality is that the intellectuals here are also focussed on symptoms. This is how separatist movements get started.
You may not want an independent Maharashtra or Bihar, but that is what you will get if you treat symptoms, and not causes.
And, do not tell me that there is a finance commission – it is because the whole centre-state allocation process is flawed and based on poor fundamentals that we are at the current situation. And,
We support capitalism in FTI. In which case, ARE WE READY TO DECLARE UNEQUIVOCALLY, AS A CORE POLICY, THAT THERE WILL BE NO CROSS SUBSIDIES BETWEEN STATES? Are we even ready to discuss such matters and move away from the generic platform of corruption and good governance (which sounds nice but means little in practical terms, unless you state the means as to how we are going to get there)? What are you going to tell the people of Mumbai as to why Delhi has a metro rail system, and Mumbai does not when it is Mumbai that generates the taxes while Delhi just guzzles it? These are the practical questions and need practical responses, which can be based upon a bedrock of core principles.
But, sloganeering by FTI is just as bad as sloganeering by MNS.
Cheers
Hi patriot
Than they should go and fight with centre, simple! Fighting with locals and supporting MNC is not going to solve the problem.
And definitely Raj is not fighting for the causes, roots and symptoms what you are talking about. It is your take on the issue not Raj’s, ShivSena’s and MNC’s.
One of the reason of mine for discussing this is because MNC issued a notice to all industries to employ 80% Maharastians. And Govt policy for locals for 15 years is just the pretext. Look at what Shantanu is suggesting, He cannot get jobs in Maharastra. Only Maharastrian is getting jobs indirectly. Dont you think this is the kick on the livelyhood and rightly hood of a person in his own country?
Secondly why I am involve in discussion here for not protecting Biharis or UP’s. If you see the histroy than they acted the same way with Tamilite and Gujaratis.
So it has become their habits to find other Indians as their enemy, I think they are idle and picking anyone of their choice. Tomorrow it can be anyone! I cant agree with anything that divides the people. Their policy is similar to divide and rule.
The problem what you are showing of Bihar and Up taxes and revenues has nothing to do with their agenda and Jobs in maharastra as what the topic is being discussed here. They have their clear agenda that is election, they hardly care about what is your point else they would have worked on that direction not in the direction what they are heading to. They are acting as an aristocrat rawdy.
All maharastrian leaders are hand in glove for claiming the jobs and rights on Maharsastra no matter what party they belongs and how educated are they.
Patriot, I know what your reply, opinion and views will be. You agree with the basic point of rights on paper but while implemneting on it you see ,many problems of sharing, caring, distrubiting and contributing. If it hurts that much than initiate talk with in govt and centre, why on locals who are weaker than the Govt.
Dont take it anything personally, I am fighting for the past and the present actions of Thackereys. I cannot keep mum where many has suffered and is suffering due to their unethical actions. If I keep quiet than it means I am supporting their unethical actions and the crime. I am not here to discuss revenues and taxes.
Jai Hind!
RE: Indian,
Thank you for your comments.
“”Than they should go and fight with centre, simple! Fighting with locals and supporting MNC is not going to solve the problem.””
This is usually called secession ….. are you sure you want Maharashtra to go down this route?
And, here is a simple set of *facts*: UP and Bihar contribute the most number of MPs to Parliament. And, it is these states that receive the largest subsidies from the rest of the country. Why will they want to change their nice, cushy position?
“”Dont you think this is the kick on the livelyhood and rightly hood of a person in his own country?””
Ummmm, as far as I can see, our constitution has legalised discrimination ….. It is called Reservations ….. why blame poor Raj for following the constitution?
“”The problem what you are showing of Bihar and Up taxes and revenues has nothing to do with their agenda and Jobs in maharastra as what the topic is being discussed here.””
This is *your* opinion, Indian. i have no problem with that. My opinion is based on talking to middle-class and lower class maharashtrians and some of the people in MNS – it is clear to me that the current political demands have a very strong economic underpinning. Unfortunately, in India so far, no political party has been able to win elections using only good economics as a platform and most do not even have a clear thinking about it (MNS included) – So, they end up putting up a political target (UP/Biharis, in this case) to galvanise the people to vote for them.
You can argue about the rights/wrongs about this strategy until the cows come home, but the fact is that the MNS/Shiv Sena have generated huge support on this platform, which is only increasing. So, as far as they are concerned, their political strategy is correct. You have to ask why the common people of Maharashtra support this policy – it is then that you get to the economic reasons. And, if you are not willing to tackle the root cause of the issue, then you can keep fighting about the symptoms. Good luck with that strategy.
“”I am not here to discuss revenues and taxes.””
A real pity. You just lost the war with the Thackerays.
Cheers
Hi Patriot
—You can argue about the rights/wrongs about this strategy until the cows come home, but the fact is that the MNS/Shiv Sena have generated huge support on this platform, which is only increasing. So, as far as they are concerned, their political strategy is correct. You have to ask why the common people of Maharashtra support this policy – it is then that you get to the economic reasons. And, if you are not willing to tackle the root cause of the issue, then you can keep fighting about the symptoms——
Good for them. I dont mind the support what they are getting let them have whole maharastra. Who cares about it?
— Good luck with that strategy.—–
Thanks for goodluck, atleast I have involved my heart of patriotism too in the strategy, not only brain doing calculations. Atleast its not destructive to others . I am proud of it.
Actually you have also understood everything. You also know what is wrong but just getting stubborn. And thats the reason you have skipped the topic of discussion and avoided many points unanswered.
—-A real pity. You just lost the war with the Thackerays—
Oh man dont be pity on me. And loosing war against thackerey?. I dont battle with brainless.
Jai Hind
RE: Indian –
“And thats the reason you have skipped the topic of discussion and avoided many points unanswered.”
What have I not answered? If you point them out, I will see if I have the capability to answer your questions.
Cheers
@ Patriot: In the context of your comments dt 7th May: …why can we not retain the entire profits that the state makes in the form of taxes so that we can build out our infrastructure further, instead of subsidising the whores of UP/Bihar/Bengal, etc in the form of tax cross-subsidies?
you will find Sh Narendra Modi’s recent remarks interesting:
Thanks, Shantanu.
My thoughts exactly.
My opinion is that if we do not have a better distribution of tax revenues across the states and if we do not demand better governance from the BIMARU states (or disenfranchise them as a penalty), an Indian Civil War and probably, dissolution of the Indian Republic, is a certainty in the next 50 years.
You already have the Naxalite war in the east …….