Please cover yourself, I am feeling awkward

Shankar,

How are you different from the Taliban?

@prince:

No, no and no to each of your first three statements.

It is only YOUR opinion that dressing modestly is a sign of human progress. There are two problems with your opinion – what is the definition of modesty? I think “Islamic” countries and more modern thinking countries differ significantly on this count. And, there is no reason why I or anyone else should accept YOUR definition of modesty.

Second, anthropologically speaking, human beings started to cover themselves to protect themselves from the elements and for migrations. Tens of thousands of years later religion jumped into the fray with the concept of original sin and other such nonsense. And, suddenly clothing was equated with modesty.

You dress according to the climate …. there is no reason why women should be forced to wear head to toe clothing in a warm place like India ….. men for that matter, too (I find business suits to be such an idiotic attire for India).

Sure, women are observed by men, and vice-versa. What is wrong with that? But, what are all these “wrong signals” that you are talking about???? If a woman wears a skirt, she is asking to be raped, is that what you are saying?

No, I do not think women are to be blamed if men act like animals. If they are so pathetically and criminally immature that they can not control their testosterone while dealing with women not in burkhas, then they should be locked up and the keys thrown away. These men are nothing better than animals and should be treated as such.

Finally, the fault is always with the hooligan …. not with the woman, irrespective of how she is dressed. If you can not understand that, I think you need to get outside your stereotypes and the medieval thoughts with which you have been brainwashed.

You want to wear a burkha, go ahead and do it – it is no skin off my nose and I couldn’t care less. But, do not go around telling others what to wear. And, if you do, join the Taliban ….. they are your spiritual brothers then.

@ Shama: I believe this is the first time I have seen you on this blog…Welcome!

I disagree with you fundamentally…The question is indeed how to deal with immature men…You cannot transfer the responsibility of the crime (molestation) on to the victim (the woman) by saying that “men will be men”…

And sorry, this is NOT a matter/ question of religion..
It is a question of liberty, freedom, right to equality, discrimination and host of related things which have nothing to do with Islam and/or any other religion…

“…they are still lots of debates and discussions on this topic(RAPES) but no specific solution has ever come up yet. “

I am surprised by your choice of words…What “solution” can there be for a crime, except punishment?

What you have suggested is NOT a solution – it aggravates the problem, legitimises the “criminal immaturity” of the
perpetrator and puts the onus on the victim to protect herself…This is preposterous and indefensible.

Who gave you (or anyone else) the right to decide whether and how much of me should be covered or not? Are women incapable of thinking for themselves?

“…And majority of the victims are either drunk or are in skimpy outfits. “

Again , transfer the blame on the victim…Shama, are you saying that if I forget to lock my car, it ought to be stolen? Also please read this post…I would be very interested in your comments on it…

On Jeans, Indian Men and “Indecent Behaviour”

“…I am asking a simple question – if you ask every lady to do Hijab…”

I am asking YOU a simple question: Who are you to tell a lady to wear a hijaab? what gave you the right?

“…A womans beauty lies in covering her body, and not revealing her body, and it also goes with the culture of india. “

Please Shama…at least read up a bit before commenting on the culture of India…Have you read my post on “Purdah”?

“…We muslim girls are fully aware of our religion and wearing hijab is blessing from God to womankind, and we consider it as a boon to the followers. “

Good for you…but please dont impose your beliefs on the rest of us…

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I look forward to your response.

P.S. As for, “…I dont intend to visit this blog again…”, thats your prerogative but I hope you do..at least to engage in this debate…

Dear Sir,
The repression let loose by 200 years of repressed thought is the cause for it as Shri. Patriot has stated. In ancient Bharat their were no veils and purdah and so on so forth. The prayers were also very descrptive of the womans body who is intoned as Goddess Shakthi.
The way of life was so profound that it was not mere sex alone that drove a man or woman it was something more sublime.
The Purdah gave more food for thought of a lady rather than even a Bikini. A Bikini exposes nearly everything and it srouses a person ONLY WHEN HE IS VIEWING IT!! Whereas in the case of a Hijab or a Purdah persons keep wondering what is so different in that person than other persons of the same sex! even if the person is AWAY 200 miles away!
The ancient Bharatiya Naris had no problem; they covered the essentials which need to be covered and exposed others which were also beautiful to LOOK AT but that did not arouse.
Again the ancient Bharatiya Nari was given a position of excellence in the household and hence society respected her and gave her every liberty without destroying her self confidence. She was not a mere chattel to be misused for procreation but a joint bull who drew the bullock of life along with others; This concept can still be viewed in south Indian marriages.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder but rape in the MIND of the beholder, so unless we train our children in the age old Bharatiya way of life no amount of laws is giong to solve the problem.
Regards,
vck

Dear Mr Mahesh “Political Leader” Patil,

Should you not be tackling the taporis instead of behaving like a talib and imposing a solution on your family members, that the Taliban would have been proud of?

And, really, you are not very different from Shama, are you, in terms of how you try to restrict free discussions?

*** COMMENT COMBINED ***

@shanatnu:

“I believe this is the first time I have seen you on this blog…Welcome!”

Thanks.

“The question is indeed how to deal with immature men…

When did i tell not to deal with criminally immature men. In fact my religion has laws which even deal with such men. I agree with you in this regard. My point was just to highlight that, a patient is the one who takes pills, the woman is the one who is sufferer, so she should take precaution.

“men will be men”…

This is ofcourse an unavoidable truth. I dont tell all men, but also its not mentioned on the forehead what type of man he is? So do you mean a woman’s honour should be left to the mercy of guesswork. Can’t a woman do anything for her honour?

“And sorry, this is NOT a matter/ question of religion..
It is a question of liberty, freedom, right to equality, discrimination and host of related things which have nothing to do with Islam and/or any other religion…”

Sorry I disagree with this comment. I dont comment about other religions but as far as Islam is concerned, Islam is related to liberty, freedom, right to equality in all aspects.

“I am surprised by your choice of words…What “solution” can there be for a crime, except punishment?”

This is the question you should ask Indian Law makers or Western Law makers, or the persons who are actually involved is such lengthy and exhaustive debates, and not to me, coz my religion is very specific and confident about the punishment.

“What you have suggested is NOT a solution – it aggravates the problem, legitimises the “criminal immaturity” of the
perpetrator and puts the onus on the victim to protect herself…This is preposterous and indefensible.”

Now where I am legetimizing the crime? In fact, I say there should be strict punishment to the criminals, but can the honur and respect of the woman be repaid, and can that stigma BE permanently eraseD from her memory. Ofcourse, the criminals should be severely punished but even the women should take precaution. This is a Two-Fold solution. If there is snake roaming in your lawn, you will not only hire a professional to seize the snake, but even you take precaution by keeping doors and windows of your house closed. You wont say that its the fault of snake, why should I take the trouble of closing doors and windows. Precaution is better than Cure….Remember.

“Who gave you (or anyone else) the right….”

Its like asking Einstein, who gave him the right to discover theory of relativity? And Newton for law of gravity. Everyone has the right to suggest or give opinion, but ofcourse not force.

“are you saying that if I forget to lock my car, it ought to be stolen? ”

A woman’s honour is far more precious than a car, and if a car is lost you can buy a new one, but there is no market from where you can buy the lost honour of a woman. Dont compare a grave social issue with a petty commercial issue like forgeting the key or loosing a car.

“Have you read my post on “Purdah”?”

The topic of discussion is not Indian Culture, so I dont wanna indulge in this point.

***

@patriot: “I had to reply because your above statement so completely captures the essence of Islam…”

Thanks for the compliment. I consider my self fortunate enough to be related with the essence of Islam, then be it in any way or any time.

“I shall speak and you shall listen. No arguments.”

This is absolutely wrong. Infact Islam is the only religion which encourages debates, discussions and free thinking. The best example is the invention of “Zero”, which was invented by an Indian, but his invention was constricted by the then superstitious social religious Indian society, and was later encouraged by non other than the Islamic Khalifa of that time and thus “Zero” was spread throughout the world by muslims, thanks to the “Free thinking” and “rational” approach and teachings of Islam.

“Have you heard of or read about Mukhtar Mai of Pakistan? ”

You tell about one such incident in Pakistan, in India you will find innumerable such cases.

“Why is it that the men of Islam treat their women so poorly? And, what is astounding to me is to hear muslim women defend this stuff????? How unreal is that? Is it because they do not know any better? How can muslim women support the honour rapes and killings of other muslim women?”

Men of Islam treat women respectfully and honourably. This is only one example. Read it yourself.

http://yvonneridley.org/yvonne-ridley/biography/biography-9.html

http://www.islamawareness.net/Converts/yvonne.html

“that is the true tradition of India, not the repressed sexual mores of the last 200 years,”

I guess you werent serious when you wrote this. I wonder whether you give the same advice to your sisters or women folk, not to repress their desires and…..I am sorry I cant use any better words. By the way I am not surprised, what more one can expect from persons like you who doesnt have any moral guidance or moral teachings.

“Why don’t you let the women of India decide”

The exhaustive debates and tiring discussions are going on but still no results yet. How dumb are such women who are not capable of taking a simple decision for themselves. I really feel pity for such women, who are waiting for a solution to safeguard their honour but unfortunately in that attempt, ending up becoming more targets and victims and evevtually loosing their respect and honour.

@ V.C.Krishnan: “The ancient Bharatiya Naris had no problem; they covered the essentials which need to be covered and exposed others”

Wow, what a logic. I wonder why even those essentials needs to be covered. Why give the brains of criminally immature men the task of EVEN WONDERING those hidden parts of essentials. Simply roam full nude. Can you please pass this precious advice to your woman folk. Lets see how practical is this and how many follow you. I hope ppl like you dont make yourselves sound like a male chauvinist if atleast not “lustful wolves” (apologizes for using harsh words) rolling your tongues at the very sight of skimpy cladded women ” as though they are sexual objects ” trying to satisfy your animilistic desires.

@Mahesh Patil: “None of the girls in that area were wearing Skimpy clothes.. nor any low cut or slit or even for that matter no jeans and t-shirt. These girls are always fully covered in traditional Punjabi suit. Still sexual comments were being passed or whistling.”

The girls were in traditional dresses thats why the eve teasing stopped till COMMENTS and WHISTLING, Had it been for skimpy outfits or alluring dresses the COMMENTS and WHISTLING would had converted to MOLESTATIONS and RAPES.

“Surely the people travelling in the buses and trains or public places will be put in an awkward situation if the girl wearing revealing clothes is of their daughters age”

I agree with you entirely on this point. I appreciate, atleast somebody speaks about practical and relevant issues.

“For Maharashtrian people anytime a lady in Navvari or Sahvari Saree,punjabi suit or any other traditional clothing draws more respect then a lady in short knee lenght or below dresses or revealing attire .”

I once again agree on this point and would like to add that, not only Maharashtrians but all women folk of the world have similar thinking, and all cultures and communities have similar moral values and family values ingrained in them, coz this is a natural instinct of human mind and soul.

The women folk of muslims are not only respected in their own community but also other communities respect them, coz of their attire and social presentation.

Its but natural, if a college girl wears tight fittings or revealing attire, she invites comments or atleast uninvited glances from guys, even girls know that….’NO PRIZES FOR THAT”

.. yes i am of traditional orthodox values. And the values thought by my parents i would surely pass on to my kids. I will teach them Namaskar, instead of Yo-pops or “Tumhi amhi” the sweet polite marathi langauge. Or how our the way our Indian goddess laxmi or goddess Saraswati dress or legends like JIjamata’s navvari to how rani laxmi bai fought in her traditional attire…

In marathis its in our blood and our upbringing the way we dress act or behave in samaj. SO we dont need to tell our kids or enforce any norms against what they should wear. We are morally brought up That way.

I am agreeing that i am traditional and of orthodox values when it comes to our cultural values. And i dont think at all since the victorians have shed their 200year old fashion, we should shed out Sita mayya’s dressing style of crores of years old (I believe in Ram so thats why crores f years old)

@Shantanu: I would defend a women if she is physically or mentally molested by toporis anytime no matter what she wears. Nor on my own will do any moral policing the way some of the political outfits do.
But surely i would keep on raising awareness to stick to our cultural roots and our traditions… till their inner concience wakes up!.

You must have heard that there is a beach volley ball event happeing in India, And our Indian team diclined to year bikinis , when bikinis are complusary for beach volley events. I am proud of these girls, they were not forced by their parents but their inner concience did.

@ USA’s “Patriot” missle: I know you are made by US to strike at islamic people.
@ SHAMA whatver the US patriot missile says.. he is doing his job.. as he being a USA’s loyalist.

@ Shama: Here is my response to your various points:

From your comment at #7: “Even in public places we (hijab-clad women) get more respect as compared to skimpy clad girls”

I take very strong objection to the way you paint all men as lustful monsters out to rape and prey on women in the streets. What makes you think that I respect a hijab-clad woman MORE than a skimpily clad woman? Does it ever occur to you that I might repsect them both equally – for having made their choices (assuming it was their choice and not “forced” on them?) I might in fact pity the hijab-clad woman walking on a beach on a hot summer day as compared to someone who is swimming in the sea in her bikini.

From the same comment: “A woman’s beauty lies in covering her body…etc” – So according to you all beauty contests should be banned and all models should be put in jail? Does the word “Taliban” ring any bell?

From your comment #14: You talk of women taking precaution…What exactly is the “precaution” that you are suggesting? A can of pepper spray? Taser Guns? Red Chilli powder? Why a Hijab?

Please understand (if you can think broadly enough) that there are other , well established ways of protecting a woman’s honour than insisting her to wear a burqa..You ask “Cant a woman do anything for her honour?” Of course she can, she can learn self-defence, she can keep a taser gun, a can of spray or red hot chiilies…and I am only half-joking here.

Your “two-fold solution” argument is puerile…It is like saying that to protect oneself from electric shock, you should wear gloves every time you touch an electrical appliance – see the point?

The way out of avoiding electrical shocks was not the insistence of electronics goods companies to ask everyone to wear gloves all the time – but to make their appliances safer…

And that’s what we should be focusing on – making our streets safer – by making our men more sensitive, aware, and respectful of the female form – of course there needs to be a deterrent but asking all women to wear hijab just doesn’t cut it.

The recommendation to read the post on Purdah was because you had brought Indian culture into this, not me (read your comment # 7 again)

You also mention that Islam encourages free debate, discussion etc…really? You cant be serious! If you have the time and the patience, read this post and we can debate this again: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2006/05/29/can-islam-reform-itself/

And please spare us the tired Yvonne ridley links – they are badly worn from overuse!

And please avoid sweeping generalisations about my readers and Indian women (e.g. “How dumb are such women…”) I know many Indian women personally – and they are lot more articulate, reasoned and thoughtful than you appear to be…

By the way, how do you explain that millions of women routinely walk the streets of London, New York, Paris, Milan, Tokyo, Miami etc in skimpy dresses and yet don’t get raped?

We are missing something, no?

To conclude, I have three simple questions for you:

1] Are you willing to respect a woman’s right to decide what she wants to wear?

2] Are you willing to accept that “revealing clothes” can NEVER be an excuse or justification for eve-teasing, molestation or rape?

3] Are you willing to consider that instead of asking all women to wear a hijab, we should ask all men to wear “blinkers” – so that they cannot see in any other direction except straight in front of them?

Finally, please read this extract from an article by Jemima Khan (ex Mrs Imran Khan):

I’ve been to Saudi Arabia a few times. It’s not much fun being a woman there. I suspect it’s worse being a Saudi woman. And worse still being her migrant maid. It’s a mad place and the rules there have got nothing to do with Islam. …
I’ve heard old ladies complain that they are so harassed at night by the frustrated male youth of Jeddah that they have to take their scarves off and reveal their raddled faces just to scare them off.

And I thought there was no eve-teasing in Saudi Arabia!

…
A few years ago, 15 girls died in a school fire in Mecca because religious police (“The Commission for The Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice”) prevented them from leaving the blazing school building as they were not wearing correct Islamic dress and there were no relatives outside to receive them. Apparently the police beat them as they tried to escape.

What do you have to say to this?

I am not going to comment any more on this topic…there are many other things that deserve our urgent attention (hint: see my latest post on the shameful happenings in Parliament)

***

Patriot, vck, Hrishi, Mahesh and Srinivas: Thanks for joining the debate.

If this discussion is between only two options ie fully covered head to toe hijabs or burkas OR going all out to be barebacks,strings,shoulderless ,minis and shorts then for sure the topic itself is wrong COZ both options are wrong.

If the girls want to give weather as the reason to wear bareall clothes on day to day basis then they are totally wrong ,as the loose covered cotton or chiffon clothes are the best for keeping cool.Going to the limit of sleeveless,short shirts ,knee or below knee length skirts are fine ,BUT the bigger question is How does a girl carry herself while wearing whatever?

Secondly whether the girl is wearing whatever irrespective of the place or the type of people she is going to? While someone thinks of answering these questions ,one would find how graceful Helen used to look inspite of her dresses and vampish roles (her inner elegance showed)whereas now a days look at the heroins how vulgar and cheap they look while carring such dresses (coz their inner intentions of i am available to do whatever shows)

Same way if the girls know they have to travel by local daily ,better don’t wear bare backs and legs revealing dresses ,coz like it or not just coz of crowd someone or other would bump into you .

But if you have your own ride and own office room at work the few liberties can be taken.

Having said all this ,girls must not ever forget ,dresses or naked MAN would behave the same coz it is a natural truth that they have little bit of beast in them just like every woman has affection/mamatve in them .

*** COMMENT COMBINED ***

@Shantanu:

“I take very strong objection to the way you paint all men as lustful monsters out to rape and prey on women in the streets. What makes you think that I respect a hijab-clad woman MORE than a skimpily clad woman? ”

The topic is not to discuss about your nature, or what type of women you give respect to? The topic is to discuss rapists and their victime. Good to know you respect all women, but as I mentioned before in my previous comment, its not mentioned on foreheads the nature of a guy. Hope you got the point. Please be practical instead of getting personal and emotional.

“I might in fact pity the hijab-clad woman walking on a beach on a hot summer day as compared to someone who is swimming in the sea in her bikini.”

I pity the semi clad women or skimpy outfit wearing women in winter season as compared to modestly covered women, as these women have to suffer not only harsh weather conditions but also have to remain undernourished in the name of dieting, and also have to squeeze themselves under tight fittings just to reach the fake standards set by men in this male dominated society, thus tryin to copy the western culture. The western concept of womans liberation is nothing but exploitation of body, degradation of honour, and deprivation of soul which doesnt upgrades the status of women but degrades her to the status of concubines, mistresses , society butterflies, chicks, babes etc. who plays as tools in the hands of pleasure seekeres and sex marketeers behind the colourful screen of art and culture.

“So according to you all beauty contests should be banned and all models should be put in jail?”

Do you really think that these beauty pageants are not exploited. Just take the case of suicidal attempts of such beauty contestants and sexual harassments cases. I dont agree they should be jailed or fined, but as men should be morally educated to respect women, in a similar way women too needs to be educated to learn moral, modest, cultural and family values. Dont get taken away simply by western culture glitter, all that glitters is not gold, reality is something different from it appears to be. See movies like NAMASTEY LONDON and PURAB AUR PASHCHIM, may be you get some patriotic and cultural awareness.

“Does the word “Taliban” ring any bell?”

I guess you are not a marketing agent of Taliban. Your foul mouthedness about taliban or any other sister organizations doesnt help in any way defending your point. As far as taliban goes, the true case is of UK Journalist Ridley. Any thing else cant be trusted as it is from Western Media. I dont wanna indulge in any way more about Taliban.

“What exactly is the “precaution” that you are suggesting? A can of pepper spray? Taser Guns? Red Chilli powder? Why a Hijab?”

Among all the options you had given, a sane minded Father or Brother would obviously opt for Hijab for her daughter or sister as comopared to other “violent” and “prone to be misused” type of impractical and immature suggestions.

“you should wear gloves every time you touch an electrical appliance – see the point?”

You shouldnt wear Gloves every time in general cases, But in exceptional cases when you know that the electric circuits doesnt carry Grounding Cables, Only a fool will not wear Gloves, and in this case he will do it on his own risk. If he says its against “freedom of will” then no one can save the life of such a simpleton.

“And that’s what we should be focusing on – making our streets safer – by making our men more sensitive, aware, and respectful of the female form – of course there needs to be a deterrent but asking all women to wear hijab just doesn’t cut it.”

I guess you are staying in a “Alice in Wonderland” for expecting all streets of the world to be free of crimes. If such a world ever exists (and if you or anyone gives the guarantee) I will be the first lady to abondon Hijab. Please be practical.

“The recommendation to read the post on Purdah was because you had brought Indian culture into this, not me”

Your version of Indian culture is “Khajuraho” and “Kamasutra” but my version of Indian Culture are Family values, moral values, repect to elders and this culture will live long and lives even today in the form of actions that ‘still today an Indian woman covers her head whenever interacting with her elders or “In laws” ‘ I dont wanna discuss about Indian Culture coz your version is different from mine.

“You also mention that Islam encourages free debate, discussion etc…really? You cant be serious!”

This only shows your shallow knowledge of Islamic History, otherwise Islamic civilazation is the only civilazation which rose to power in the shortest span of time as compared to all other civilazations of the world. And historians describe the spread of Islam as a ‘miraculous feat’ .

“By the way, how do you explain that millions of women routinely walk the streets of London, New York, Paris, Milan, Tokyo, Miami etc in skimpy dresses and yet don’t get raped?”

Do you mean to say the rape reports are less in western countries? OH COME ON. Grow up. They are on alarming rise and Islam is the fastest growing religion in West. And among the new converts two thirds are women.

Read this.

http://greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=21_7_2008&ItemID=41&cat=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PJgJdEzNM

“1] Are you willing to respect a woman’s right to decide what she wants to wear?”

I respect the right and choice of even a small kid, but doest that mean I would let a small kid jump over a cliff, thus giving him freedom of choice, No but I would ofcourse save him.

“2] Are you willing to accept that “revealing clothes” can NEVER be an excuse or justification for eve-teasing, molestation or rape”

Clothes are ofcourse a strong reason for molestations and rapes, if you dont believe you need to go back to college and experience yourself, Clothes are a media of presenting your personality in society.

“3] Are you willing to consider that instead of asking all women to wear a hijab, we should ask all men to wear “blinkers” – so that they cannot see in any other direction except straight in front of them?”

You implement this law in the whole world, and once its confirmed each and every man in the world starts wearing blinkers, believe me i will be the first lady to abandon Hijab. But still the straight sight of men wearing blinkers remains unsolved.

“Finally, please read this extract from an article by Jemima Khan (ex Mrs Imran Khan):”

please spare us the tired Jemina Khan links – they are badly worn from overuse! Women like this who dumps Husbands today and are spotted tomorrow nude with other men on beach, who considers marriage as playground, may serve as an exemplary models for others, but not my cup of tea.

“I’ve heard old ladies complain that they are so harassed at night by the frustrated male youth of Jeddah that they have to take their scarves off and reveal their raddled faces just to scare them off. ”

There is no truth whatsover in such fairy tales. But if such incidents would had happened in western countries or India, even revealing those raddled faces wouldnt had served the purpouse, as there is no respect even for older women leave about younger women. And please stay away from pointing out such incidents in Islamic countries, coz I can show you thousand such cases for one such case in Islamic countries.

Read This.

http://www.thp.org/reports/indiawom.htm

http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/rape_laws.htm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Woman_Army_officer_alleges_harassment_by_seniors/articleshow/3238355.cms

“brief excerpt from Almost half of Egyptian women harassed daily, ”

Note the words “harassed daily”, but in India in 1992, every 54 minutes one rape case was reported and every 26 minutes one report of harassment, just report, dont ask about non-reports, imagine how many rape cases daily. That was the case in 1992, imagine what may be today. And today the responsibility of fashion of rapes are shouldered by the Police themselves. Can you show me how many rape cases are attached to “Saudi Muttaween Police”. You will find innumerable rape cases by Indian Policemen raping and terrorizing girls, women and even women who comes to file complaints, can you show me any rape case of any complainant by police in Islamic countries or by Taliban regime.
Come on, people living in glass houses shouldnt throw stones at others houses. You can misguide misinformed ppl but not muslims.

Read this.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE2DD1330F937A25753C1A964958260

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3693/is_200208/ai_n9118448

You invoked me to reply, otherwise I dont intend to offend any of your readers or yourself, coz it seems you ppl wanna stay in Fools Paradise. Anyways thanks .

***

@bharat:

“Whether men or women, one need to practice to have control over senses. Why do we have buddhi (intelligence), and why do we follow the path of dharma (religion, spirituality), if we can’t discrimiate wrong from the right, darkness from light, vulger from decent, untruth from truth, immodesty from modesty…?”

You better need to ask this question to the rapists.

@Shama
Looks like you dont wish to talk on a common plane with this thread/forum…ie. reason, logic, facts etc

You would rather believe Taliban and Muslim accounts of white-washing their violent history. Your only rejection of assertions made here is that you dont want to discuss accounts of western media unless they support your point of view.

Yours sounds like the usual cop-out argument of a Muslim/Muslim apologist who doesnt wish to face the reality of major concerns/fears that virtually every Non-Muslim has – the uncompromising, unethical, ruthlessly violent drive to spread Islamic ideology. There is therefore nothing to discuss further. Your mind is closed

I have no intention of engaging with anyone who thinks that the Taliban’s behavior needs no questioning or that women’s plight in Islamic countries is a fiction and needs no questioning either

Wonder why you waste time when you had no intention of presenting any fact-based or logical points in the first place??

“Everyone wants a Malikka Sherawat to be born in their neigbours home. but not in their own house or family.”

Good point Mahesh patil. I think all the anti hijab persons got a befitting reply.

@Hrishi:
“Yours sounds like the usual cop-out argument of a Muslim/Muslim apologist who doesnt wish to face the reality”

“I ……. from today onwards will allow my daughter/sister/wife to wear whatever she feels like. i.e it could be a right from bikinis at beach to micro minis midis low backs, low waist, short skirts etc etc.”

Read the above comment of Mahesh patil, you will come to know who is staying in reality and who is staying in fairytale Land.

Thanks.

I find it so disgusting that so many people blame the women for men raping them, I dont believe it. And now the solution is for all women to hide under black robes!!! Wow, as a women it offends me so many people talk like this. So are u people who all call for responsibility from women about the way they dress say, u wont teach basic responsibility to men? Why cant men learn to control their instincts of sex. If according to your sick logics men cannot control their sex urges, I wonder how people in this world control their urge to drink, to smoke, to kill, to plunder, to loot. Ohh all those who do that are ok, others who are victims should be wearing bullet proof clothing to prevent people from killing, or even better, if people who are possible victims can all go into underground hiding all these men will become good.

A decent man is one who can see anything that provokes him and still be sane and decent. Not one who gives in to his vile desires. A man who cannot control his desires will get provoked even after all women in the world hide under so called suits and veils. History has shown it happening always. A few years back a man raped a mentally retarded child in front of passengers in a train. Sorry, the child wasnt wearing a hijab, poor child she didnt know that. She was unfortunately provoking the man to rape, so he was justified according to above arguments!!

Next the solution is one layer of hijab doesnt work, wear 1000 layers so that the guy tires! Ohh yeh hide the eyes, a woman can attract a man by her eyes too, wear sunglasses. Cool attire!! Now all men can rest easy, as if their vile instincts have gone.

Its sickening and saddening to see instead of teaching boys to respect women and look at them as fellow human beings and people with respect we teach men to look at women as objects of sexual pleasure, and then blame the women for it. As long as this attitude goes nothing will work, and women will always face violence in public, and home.

From the archives: Malaysian fundamentalist cleric complains of growing sexual temptations (October 31, 2007)

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: Malaysia’s Muslim men are suffering sleepless nights and cannot pray properly because their thoughts are distracted by a growing number of women who wear sexy clothes in public, a prominent cleric said.

Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat, the spiritual leader of the opposition Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, said he wanted to speak about the “emotional abuse” that men face because it is seldom discussed, the party reported on its Web site Wednesday.

“We always (hear about) the abuse of children and wives in households, which is easily perceived by the eye, but the emotional abuse of men cannot be seen,” Nik Abdul Aziz said. “Our prayers become unfocused and our sleep is often disturbed.”

Nik Abdul Aziz has made controversial comments about women in the past, including that women should stop wearing lipstick and perfume to lower the risk of being raped. Women’s groups have slammed his statements, saying Islam teaches both men and women to be responsible for modesty. They say comments like these encourage rapes because it puts the onus on women.

Nik Abdul Aziz’s fundamentalist party has about 800,000 members. He is also the chief minister of northeastern Kelantan, the only one of Malaysia’s 13 states that is not ruled by the moderate National Front governing coalition.

His party’s Web site published an illustration Wednesday of how women should dress — in long, flowing headscarves covering their hair and chests and “baggy and loose” long-sleeved, floor-length dresses.

Most women from Malaysia’s Malay Muslim majority wear a modest form of Islamic clothing, though younger women in cities sometimes wear body-hugging dresses or tight T-shirts and jeans.

In Kelantan, the Islamic party has fined Muslim women for not wearing headscarves in workplaces and implemented separate check-out lines for men and women in supermarkets.

The reason you hear of fewer rapes from “traditional, chaste and modest societies” is because:

a) women and men are segregated so there is less possibility for men to get to the women in the first place

b) women are forced to stay indoors with family most of the time, and rarely go to college, work, etc.

c) intra-family rapes are kept secret for fear of reducing the value of women on the marital meat market

c) the mindset that a woman must have attracted rape by not being modest enough will shame her into not reporting it officially

I stay in Bangalore. I am usually in a jean n t-shirt ( my own choice of clothes ). I cannot wear a burkha. So my understanding is that i am totally covered, but i still get bad looks from some of the men. SO what can be done in that case? Everyone should understand that when a man lechers at a woman, its not because she is not dressed properly but because the perpetrators instinct to satisfy his ego ( read low self – esteem ) by terrorizing the woman.

Has no one studied Psychology to know better about criminals, and is the concept of Fashion Evolution alien to the fundamentalists?

Very well said Uma!! …The whole world has been blaming women’s dressing for the harassment they face on roads and public transport but all these preachers forget to moral police themselves and other creeps who do not even need any kind of provocation to do such acts. If only dressing had to do something with this then I m sure all women aur girls would be safe in villages…

Hi Shantanu ,

You are Stumped , But iam not clear Why ???

Could you Please Tell , What Will be the Modesty Level for Women and Men According to you ?? and is there any Modest level required or not ,

Regards

Sudeep

And a related article from SwarajyaMag Quranic verses about veiling and ambiguities in definition of hijab by Swati Goel Sharma

Tenuously related but offers a glimpse of how Egypt and the Arab world has changed in just 50 years, a clip of Gamal Abdel Nasser laughing at Muslim Brotherhood hijab requirement in 1958

Somewhat related, from Why should a bad religious idea be accepted at all? by Tavleen SIngh, 16th October 2022:
….
The debate on hijab has become so derailed that supporters of hijab say that it is just the same as Sikh boys going to school in turbans. It is not. Sikh boys wear turbans to keep their unshorn locks in control not because they are told that women will become excited and lecherous if they wander about turbanless. When a little Muslim girl is told to veil herself, it is because she is taught to believe that men will get sexually aroused by the sight of her hair and face. If this is true, then it is men who need to learn how to avert their eyes when they see a woman.
….