Building a Freedom Team for India

A Freedom Team is a good idea. Already, web forums that serve as think tanks of Indian thought have senior members who meet with each other. A larger networking of such forums is what is needed. When I say Indian thought, I mean thought that is really Indian, not something that is really a foreign meme (or Mem) thrust upon us.

Some forums have established themselves as having the real information on certain issues. And these forums are those that influence the public. Sooner or later. What is discussed on those forums is picked up by the press, and many things find their way into the way the average guy speaks. Believe me, the Pakistani press is an avid reader of certain Indian forums that discuss Pakistani affairs.

I have found that big ideas need an incubation time of 3-5 years, during which most people just give up, since they don’t see their views gaining traction within, say, 2-3 months.

I would like to add to your list of qualities to be sought in a leader:

The ability to think on your feet and think of the other person’s reply to your question and re-word your question several times so as to pre-empt smart aleck replies is key.

Many leaders do not have this ability. They talk of something (point 1, say), and never get to go on to point 2, because they are left trying to tie up the 17 loose ends they left with point 1, which their audience picks up.

Another thing is the ability to keep repeating your message in different contexts and thus hammering it into people’s heads. This has to be done without being boring.

Yet another thing is to smell out people who want to create diversions, but have little other value, and let them win, so you can move to bigger fish.

The abilty to *not* take credit is the one ability I would single out as the most important one.

I believe that such a Team needs to have, in addition to a public wing, one large wing composed people who will be able to contribute without having to be in public view. That is the essence of building lasting, real change, instead of having people feel that they are being led by the nose. Many people want to contribute without being seen, just hoping that they generate like-thinking and eventually “better-thinking” peers out of their audience.

Brilliant ideas and thought by Sanjeev shablok. Effective and Inspirational.

One more thing, India is going through regional politics, discrimination among Hindus itself and caste system needed to be addressed first before we move to freedom. Once the person comes to power regionalty starts coming in that is worst case which can hinder the progress of the country. So what if I am Tamilite or Gujarati or Bengali or Maharastrian, all has equal oppertunity for jobs and previlieges. After all we all belong to same Nation and community of Hindus.
Hindus must unite, not to threaten other but to preserve our own values, culture, morals, and ethics and tenents of Hindusism.

Dear Friends,

Thanks for your comments. The idea of the Freedom Team is in its very early stages at the moment. The two key points for someone wanting to join are: (a) commitment to freedom (and justice) and (b) aspiration to become a level 4 or 5 leader, which means a values driven and competent individual. Once about 100 high quality people committed to freedom join (or are invited to join), some preliminary discussions can commence on whether there will be a public wing, etc. Thanks for these ideas. They will be explored at the right time. And of course, given that these people are going to be team players, each of them will contribute freely to the extent he or she can. No compulsions.

Re: “The abilty to *not* take credit is the one ability I would single out as the most important one.”

– This is subsumed under level 4 and 5 leadership. Genuine humility is the main characteristic of such a leader; so taking credit does not even come anywhere in the consideration. Giving is the nature of such leaders, not taking.

Re: “The ability to think on your feet and think of the other person’s reply to your question and re-word your question several times so as to pre-empt smart aleck replies is key.”

– I suggest this is not an ability to aspire for. If a person is sincere and pays attention to the question, then the reply provided in humility and within the limitations of that person would be appropriate. This is a constant learning experience. Let us train ourselves for values and knowledge and reflect on our own selves; the rest will take care of itself.

Re: “discrimination among Hindus itself and caste system needed to be addressed first before we move to freedom.”

– May I suggest that freedom tolerates different approaches to life and God, but is completely intolerant of intolerance and discrimination. A person who believes in the caste system has no place in the Freedom Team. The leadership potentially to be thrown up by the Freedom Team will be quite different to what you see today.

Re: “We should understand that the “Bloggers” are mainly the elite who wish to express their opinion anonymously so that if one meets them on the street they need not be recogonised. This means that it will be very difficult for the chosen 1500 to ever take up the cudgels on behalf of the society fearing severe retribution in many cases.”

– Membership to the Freedom Team is only for those who are willing to be open, transparent about themselves, and willing to take a stand for what they believe in. Hiding under ‘black hats’ won’t do . The Freedom Team is on the look out for true lion hearts, not people afraid of what the media will write about them or what others will say about them. There is no point in being a member of a Freedom Team if you don’t believe in everyone’s freedom to say whatever they wish to. Let everyone have their say, including the critics. Each member of the Freedom Team should be strong enough to stick to his own beliefs. It is a personal journey of discovery as much as an effort to reform India.

Re: “Throw in a few beatings, maimings, family life destroyed, fighting against established brainwashed mentalities. 1500!!”

– 1500 brave and good people in a population of 1 billion. Is that too much to ask? Is India afraid of shadows? I’m sure we have tens of thousands of such good people. Now is the time to stand up and join hands.

Regards
Sanjeev

Dear Sir,
Any number of shadows will not make any substance. It is not that one is afraid of shadows but the feel is different today. The yardstick for the freedom struggle from an alien yoke was different from that exists today. Today one is attempting to get freed from the yoke of criminalisation, which is against the grain of civilised thinking.
Coming to the analysis; The first question that may come to one’s mind would be FROM WHAT!
The top 1% has all it needs to keep it going. Loads of money, opportunities galore, subsidised education, no rules for following either from parents or society,
pampered to the core. So what is the freedom they would be interested in?
The poltical circus leaders are living in their own world and are no way interested in FREEING INDIA from their clutches.
So whom are we left with, idealists or the extreme poor. Now coming to the aspect of the poor they go to the nearest vote booth with the least respect for themselves , as their self respect has been completely blunted over the years, due to a lax bureaucracy and an arrogant ruling class.
They are satisfied with a PROMISE of a TV, free deinks on the day of the poll, free Biriyani on the day of the poll, and free sarees.
The youth have no MORAL leader who can act as their “KINDLY LIGHT”. Religion is scoffed at as each one provides SALVATION in its own way and each one way is fighting for space to prove its method of salvation.
Coming to the idealists, they live in their ivory towers, talking from a place of running water, A/c rooms, powered vehicles, pressure cookers, microwaves and TV’s including home theaters.
Whom does one target to the 1500.
Let us understand what one is freeing oneself from and what for as otherwise the doubts of others, religion, language, cultures and the whole conundrum will just flow in as usual.
I just want some clarifications as a Black Hat thinker.
Regards,
vck

@ Sanjeev, excellent and very well articulated, as always.

***

@ vck: You have thrown up some serious issues – which have also been at the back of my mind. Unfortunately work pressures have severly constrained my time and ability to contribute. Nevertheless, I will try and write a response in the coming days (at least I hope to).
In the meantime, please do continue to share your thoughts – I am sure Sanjeev will do the same.

Thanks.

@ Ashish: You said “big ideas need an incubation time of 3-5 years, during which most people just give up, since they don’t see their views gaining traction within, say, 2-3 months.”
Absolutely…It is a long and hard road and the job is almost thankless…So one needs tons of patience, but more than that, steadfastness, persistence and strong convictions and resolve….Having said that, I am sure that there are people like these out there…All they need is a platform to bring them together and something that catalyses it…
I see Sanjeev’s effort in that context.
I also agree with you that “the abilty to *not* take credit is the one ability I would single out as the most important one.” – Well said.

***
@ vck: Yes, you are right when you say that “…it will be very difficult for the chosen 1500 to ever take up the cudgels on behalf of the society fearing severe retribution in many cases.”
I am certainly under no illusion about how hard the task is (neither I think is Sanjeev – having personally gone through this process)
This makes it imperative that one enters fully prepared and with no illusions about what might await him/her.
One of the reasons why I write quasi-anonymously on this blog is that I don’t think the time is right for me to get into this with all my energy..
Reforming India is a 24×7, 7 days a week, 365 days a year job – as I often tell my friends – and you can pretty much forget about family life, a source of income and day-to-day comforts if/when you decide to choose this path.
Hence, one must be careful in timing this…otherwise, it will lead to disillusionment and disenchantment

***
@ Indian: Yes, caste is an insidious cancer that is eating away at the fabric of our strength and identity..In many ways, it is probably the single most important problem confronting any reform of the political system (and governance).
Unfortunately there are no easy answers and most people are unwilling to devote the mental energy and time needed to come up with creative approaches to this issue.

***
@ vck: Coming back to your final comment, You have put the finger on one of the core issues here… that of an entire generation (and I count myself in this) being fed on a diet of education that essentially deprives one of self-identity, pride, knowledge and awareness about one’s history, culture and identity…
I am fortunate that I managed to come out of it (thanks partly to my wife and my family) and I was also fortunate that certain events triggered a questioning attitude that led to the starting of this blog and finally to this point.
So yes, reforming the current system of education must also be high on the list of priorities…But should one just wait until then?
I am not so sure.

Look forward to continuing this discussion

Dear VCK

I can understand (I think) from where you are coming. But the thing is more complex than that. The world is changing much faster than it appears on the surface. The British leadership has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Two generations have gone by. It is now India that clearly lags behind. After Gandhi and Vivekananda left, people came up with the mistaken idea in India that there is some kind of a perpetual culture war out there which one group or the other wants to win. But that is an outdated fact no longer relevant today.

If you read the history of the West (and the history of freedom – a book I’m currently writing will elaborate it clearly), you’ll find the most despicable atrocities committed against ‘heretics’ in Europe as late as in the 1600s, even as enlightened kings like Akbar ruled India. These people were primitive brutes in most parts of Europe even though a semblance of new thinking was emerging in their society. Till the 1700s they practiced slavery. Till 1800s, they practiced racism. Till mid-1900s, they were imperialists.

But now, after many changes in their laws and practices, in 2008, they are rational, tolerant, humans (at least by and large). They have moved from beast in 1600 to man in 2000. This evolution has happened in the West on the foundation of the ideas of people like Bruno, Locke, Spinoza, Burke, Jefferson, Lincoln, Gandhi, Hayek, Luther King, Ayn Rand, and Friedman, among many others. Note: Gandhi was extremely influential in this change. In 13 generations an entire primitive civilization has changed for the better.

I am therefore asking that we get over culture wars. There is nothing left to fight about. There are no cultural issues worth talking about; mere remnants of a distant past that needs to be reviewed, recast, and rebuilt. I am suggesting that we need to imbibe the concepts of freedom and adopt the policies of freedom as the foundation of a new India. Our generation has the task of making these ideas our own. This has nothing to do with inferiority complexes and all that. There is no inferior person any longer in the world — except the person who sees himself as inferior and begs for charity. Cast away all inferiority for in freedom, all are equal and their worth evaluated on merit.

As sovereign individuals, we need to learn more about freedom, discover its policies, and take its message to the people, so that the lives of millions of people can change for the better. This matter of freedom is not a cultural issue, but a matter of bringing prosperity and dignity to millions of people.

The Freedom Team, I have clarified today on its ‘home page’ is open primarily to those will ultimately contest elections in India on a platform of freedom. There is much work before that happens, perhaps 10 years of work – or even more. But in a nation’s history that is not a big time frame.

Regards
Sanjeev

Sanjeev: You have written an excellent riposte to the comment and covered most of the points.

I would like to add a few thoughts.

1. ALL views are slanted – whether they are indigenous or “from abroad” – so that “criticism” (if it was one), does not hold.

2. A man on the spot is a great idea – both in theory and in practice…and no doubt we have many such “men” – and “women” on the spot – all doing excellent, commendable work – for the most part selfless and unsung.

However, there are two fundamental issues with this:

a] There are limits to what people/individuals/small groups can achieve. These limits are normal – they exist because individuals or small groups will rarely have a cause that needs a million people.

Normally the “cause” would be very specific (for that is what an individual or a small group can do best) and hence something as ambitious as “reforming” the system is inherently difficult – if not impossible – for an individual or a small group to focus on – or to attempt.

Viewed in this context, one can easily understand why it needs 1500 people and not 15 people to make any difference.

b] I have not read Acharya Bhave’s book so I am not able to comment on it. No doubt it has some excellent ideas and no doubt the silent/invisible “helping hand” does do a huge amount of social good.

Unfortunately that does not even get us close to fixing what is wrong with out system at a higher level of abstraction.

At best it finds a “way out” of the system (- as in “build your own canal”) or finds a way to happily “co-exist” with it (- as in let us start a school for children from slums).

No one dares question why is that the State has failed in its duty, in the first place, to provide water for irrigation and adequate schools for every child of school-going age in independent India

While I agree that “What needs to be done, can be, should be.. etc and DOING IT are indeed two different things… “ – it does not mean that there is no place for “talking about it”.

As Sanjeev has said, a earnest (wo)man without a vision can, at best, be a hard-working, well-meaning individual – but he or she will not be able to fundamentally alter things.

For that you need vision, and you need the authority/power to take hard decisions and bold steps – and in a system lime ours that only comes through political power…So you need a cadre of committed people who are willing to take their “fight” one level up…and challenge the “system” through the electoral process, by getting involved in setting the agenda – rather than reacting to it.

Shantanu

P.S. I strongly disagree that the pen is any less mightier than the sword today – if anything, “with media and internet” – it is more powerful than ever before.

Dear VCK

The questions you raise are interesting.

Re: Indisciplined taxi drivers – I don’t know the rules in Mumbai, but their behaviour is likely to be a combination of limited number of taxi licenses, demands for bribes from the police, lack of an appropriate reporting and investigation system for consumer complaints, and of course, lack of driver training before giving them licenses to drive a taxi. Much of this can be reformed through good governance, but unfortunately it will have to be a wholistic reform, not piecemeal reform. You can’t get that wholistic reform with the quality of corrupt leaders you have in Mumbai (and India) today.

Re: Migrants to Mumbai, eg, your question “Why not make the state from which you come more prosperous and successful rather than destroying another which is successful.” Migration to places which are more prosperous and relatively more free is a law of human nature. In Mumbai people face less caste discrimination, they can merge into a big city and become valued for their innate worth, and so there will always be pressures to come to places like Mumbai (relative to other interior parts of India). That many people leave Mumbai and travel to other parts of the world which are even better is part of the same arrangement. All said and done, the average per capita quality of life in Mumbai is absolutely deplorable in comparison to what is ‘normal’ elsewhere in the modern world, and what can be achieved in free India, as outlined in my book.

For the entire country to shift its performance, the quality of political and bureaucratic leadership will have to be raised significantly, and policies changed drastically, particularly in the field of education. My effort is to bring awareness of the changes needed in India, and to then help facilitate that change. I am looking for 1500 outstanding people who fully understand the changes that are needed, and are willing to get elected to make those changes.

If you can devote your time to exploring your questions in greater depth and aiming to become a high quality leader, you would do India great service. You need to move beyond asking questions to finding out the answers and understanding the entire problem and being able to recommend the package of solutions needed.

That will need a careful examination of the incentives and policies that underpin these problems. In particular, India’s poor policies and poor implementation, driven by a totally corrupt set of ‘leaders’, come back to bite it at every level. I’d encourage you to consider the arguments made in my book ‘Breaking Free of Nehru’ at http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/breakingfree.html, particularly chapters 4,5, and 6.

Also, there are a large number of other books that can be read. I’ll recommend Milton Friedman’s ‘Capitalism and Freedom’ as a start, then Ayn Rand’s Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal’, then Julian Simon’s ‘The Ultimate Resource’. Also ‘Microeconomics and Behaviour’ by Robert Frank, and of course, reading as widely as possible in history, political philosophy, and philosophy more generally. A 1100 page book is available for free download on the internet as well (15 MB!) called ‘Capitalism’ by George Reisman. I will try to prepare a reading list (I had prepared something of that sort a few years ago – see http://www.liberalpartyofindia.sabhlokcity.com/philosophy/liberalchain.htm).

Regards
Sanjeev

Dear Sanjeev (& others),

Good discussions! I happened to land up accidentally on this blog page and i dont repent! I have not read your book, but, from the discussions between you people i can well imagine that there could be valuable treasure in it. I have not read the Bhagwat Geeta fully till date, .at 53 since we have plenty of think tanks to do this. (I would like to submit, after due study, that in principle, most of the policies evolved by most of the Govts at the centre and the States are by and large good, though some may be impracticable, irrelevant and some only as poll gimmics).

In effect less than 40% of planned tasks are achieved, that too with un-desired quality

5. Lack of an effective system of Accountability. ( There have been instances of corrupt practices by Judiciary also! The Lok Ayukta is not empowered for punishment and to bring its findings to their logical justice!)

Now, to counter the above deficiencies in Governance, we immediately require non-corrupt, efficient, dedicated, competent, sincere, honest and committed leaders to enter into the political system. And believe me, there are such leaders available all over the country, we need to only identify them and convince them that politics is not dirty by itself, but made to be so by people who are within. With this basic thought in mind, about 2 years ago Lok Paritran poltical party was founded by a few IITians and professionals to get into the political system. They have been having many hurdles along their path but are slowly picking up. I too have joined this party and plan to contest the forthcoming Assembly elections in Karnataka.

Dear Sanjeev, I understand your view that you would wait till you muster the visionary 1500. The wait could take too long and the system may get deteriorated further. It is thus my humble suggestion that you and the like minded potential leaders should come on the field and actively participate, keeping at all times your good thoughts and knowledge close to your hearts, which can be spread more vigorously during the process and attract more good leaders.

I’m an ex-Commander of Indian Navy, B.Sc., Mech/Marine Engr, Aero-Engr and specialised in Aero-quality assurance, voluntarily retd after 27+ years of service. Since both children have settled well, I thought of doing my bit to bring in a change the Governance of our Country although I’m only living with my meagre pension and slightly supplementing it through free-lance civil projects! I solicit support from you good and potential leaders and to join me also in my endeavour.

Regards,
Cdr. (Retd) BB Khilari

This is turning out to be a interesting discussion. Please continue sharing your thoughts.

***

@ Cdr Khilari: Good to see you here, Sir. I am glad you have chosen to join Lok Paritran. I was quite impressed by them when they started and also managed to speak to Tammay a few years ago.

Since then, I have had less luck in my attempts to get in touch with them. Perhaps you may be able to help.

When you have a chance, do have a read through: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/03/24/dark-clouds-just-got-darker/ and

https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/04/13/bpd-bm-lp-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/

If you could put me in touch with the Lok Paritran leadership, I would be delighted to profile them in my Interview with young politicians series (see https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/02/08/interview-with-ujjwal-part1/ and https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/10/12/geeta-gokhale-bpd-interview-part1/ )

Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.

Pl visit loksattamovement.org and voteindia.org. I am confident that Loksatta movement is the future of India.

Pl let me know your interest.

regards

Dear All

I strongly support efforts like Lok Satta and Lok Paritran. So I would encourage all those interested in joining politics at this stage itself to join one of them (or any other group of your choice). The Freedom Team will take some time. It has only just been formed, and I don’t know when 1500 outstanding people will assemble.

By the way, Captain Khilari, I tried to do something in this area a little before these two new efforts came into being. I tried a few things since 2000 but nothing seemed to work. Then, in 2004, JP and a few other invitees attended a 5-day workshop I had organised. But at that stage he did not want Lok Satta to join politics. I then joined Swatantra Bharat Party but left it in 2005. (Some pictures from the 2004 effort are at: http://www.indiapolicy.sabhlokcity.com/workshop/pics/ plus some more details at: http://www.indiapolicy.sabhlokcity.com/ )

I then ‘retired’ from politics after failing to find or create a political group that met my expectations. At the moment, I am trying to facilitate the coming together of at least 1500 good people to kick-start a process to advance freedom and good governance in India. The main thing is that I have tried to offer some concrete suggestions through my book. That is my key message.

Being a member of Lok Paritran or Lok Satta, etc., is not incompatible with being on the Freedom Team. The key thing about the Freedom Team idea is its ‘filtration process’, and guarantee of quality. I want it to represent a seal of quality in India politics in the future. That is why I have created an initial ‘filter’ at:
http://www.freedom.sabhlokcity.com/whoshouldjoin.html
By the way, I don’t think I am asking for much: simply for honest, competent people; and among this group only those who are very clear about the need for greater freedom (with accountability) in India, and are willing to study hard and work towards world best practice policies for India.

==

Dear VCK, you are right about the importance of accountability. I have also identified accountability as a key missing factor in India’s governance in my book. Please consider a 2-page summary of the concept at:
http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/appendix1.pdf

By the way, I don’t agree that “we are forced by our elders to act like that.” I agree that our elders influence us, but after age 18, we are adults and FULLY accountable for ourselves whether we like it or not. We cannot then implicate our elders. As they are our well-wishers, they did the best they could. We may have deferred to their views, but we did so as responsible and accountable adults. In any case, let us go to the next step, now. The future beckons.

My question is: what do you want to DO next? You can either be a spectator or a participant. You are free to choose, but if you choose not to participate, then you also lose the rights to complain. So can I suggest you consider joining an existing effort such as Lok satta or Lok Paritran and gain some valuable experience on how these things work. Second, once you fully understand what the Freedom Team stands for you can also consider joining it.

Regards
Sanjeev

I tend to agree with VCK. I think the idea of starting a political party has to start from the grass roots. One has to spend a few years working with locals first and earn trust. Credibility has to be earned. You may criticize the existing parties for their policies and practices, but one thing you cannot deny is their grassroot network. Congress and BJP have extensive grassroot networks in the north but not so in the south. This is the prime reason for them joining hands with regional parties in the south. If one has to contest againt these parties, one has to fight them first at the grassroot level. There is a saying : If you want to clean the city, you should start from your own neighbourhood. I think that is how a political party has to be built to be successful. You contest at local levels (municipality elections etc) first. Then, you go to state levels. It will probably be a steep learning curve initially. Then (hopefully) if one does good work that is recognized, word shall spread. I just feel that the idea of straight away contesting a national election in such a diverse country is impossible. I am not aware of how these new parties are approaching the task but I think the ones that do survive after a few years would be those who were successful in developing a grassroot base. By the way, Sanjeev, this is just my personal opinion and I still encourage and applaud your enthusiasm. Hopefully, you will be successful. The end goal is still the same, we all want a strong and successful India.

*** Please read in full. There are some useful insights ***

All, what follows is a string of comments, extracted from an exchange of emails between an un-named Lead India contestant, an active political worked, myself and Sanjeev.

The names of the Lead India contestant and the active political worker shall remain anonymous as I have no intention of infringing on anyone’s privacy and I do not (yet) have their permission to reveal their identity (it was a private exchange of emails)…Yet I feel the thoughts are important enough to merit public disclosure and debate.

In any case, this is a debate around ideas; while personalities add colour to the discussion, a desire for anonymity should not stop us from having this debate…

*** COMMENTS BEGIN ***

Comment by un-named Lead India contestant (henceforth LIC):

Referring to a statement on Sanjeev’s website:
———–
Finally, about 550 outstanding leaders should contest elections. With the right effort and good luck, a majority of them will hopefully get elected.
———–

This statement by Sanjeev has about the same insight into the Indian political system as an 8th standard kid. Can’t believe he was an IAS officer.

So far nothing I have read makes me feel that he has any substance.

Blogs, e-groups and websites are not the way to make a change in society. Gotta get out there.
.

***
Comment by active political worker:
I think this is a matter of perspective. I too had that opnion that internet and emails are just waste of time and not the way to bring out revolution. but the same has connected me to Sanjeev, Shantanu as well as Lokparitran.
.
***
Comment by B Shantanu

Dear LIC: I find it hard to agree with you on two points though:

1] The insight(s) into political system that Sanjeev has: I believe you are being a bit harsh but I guess everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. Sanjeev has been inside the system, tried to change it and failed. That experience is surely worth something and I believe there are lessons in it for all of us.

2] That blogs, websites etc are not the way to make change happen: We had heard a similar criticism from a readers to which Sanjeev and I had both responded. I wrote that while “…What needs to be done, can be, should be.. etc and DOING IT are indeed two different things… ” – it does not mean that there is no place for “talking about it”.
An earnest (wo)man without a vision can, at best, be a hard-working, well-meaning individual – but he or she will not be able to fundamentally alter things.

For that you need vision, and you need the authority/power to take hard decisions and bold steps – and in a system like ours that only comes through political power…So you need a cadre of committed people who are willing to take their “fight” one level up…and challenge the “system” through the electoral process, by getting involved in setting the agenda – rather than reacting to it.”

Please have a look at this comment when you have a few minutes https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/01/09/freedom-team-for-india/#comment-11116 and this one https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/01/09/freedom-team-for-india/#comment-11117

I sincerely feel all of us can find a way to work together – for there is at least one thing that binds us (I believe): the desire to live in a better India.

.

***

Comment by LIC:

if emails and discussions etc are not backed by actual work on the ground then it is a waste of time. armchair theorizing and strategizing can be fun and may even end up influencing someone. after all tolstoy and ruskin influenced gandhi.

but you guys seem to be waiting for mr. gandhi to come along. sabhlok is now an australian citizen and i don’t know what your situation is Shantanu. Are you working full time in the social sector.

i have the luxury of saying these things because people like misra, kaura, ujjwal and i are doing this full time. we are walking the talk. you guys seem to be doing a lot of the latter.

.

***

Comment by Sanjeev:

This is an important and interesting conversation and raises many issues..

LIC, there are two approaches I can take after reading your emails.

I can let myself get angry and write you off equally as you have written me off – and also Shantanu and XYZ! You do know how to spray the
shotgun, I say! But I think I understand your style a little better after I went to the internet and found that you have a reputation for bluntness.

And that’s good, the bluntness. None of us has time for frivolous talk. I also enjoy your youthful arrogance and provocative stance. You are at least be half-way to where I’d like the leaders of India to be. The other half is policy thinking and strategic capability, and the ability to be a team player. It is these aspect that I’d like to discuss.

You were perhaps in USA while I was completing my doctorate there (1994-99). Then I returned to India and tried to form a political party. I tried 3 times till 2005. One of my efforts helped raise resources and momentum to get one MP elected (Sharad Joshi) and one MLA in Maharashtra.

See pics at http://www.indiapolicy.sabhlokcity.com/workshop/pics/
(I wish I had the pics of the large gathering of 26 January where thousands of people assembled from across India, but never mind.) The point being that I DO walk the talk — but in my own way.

Indeed, everyone on the Freedom Team is a person of substance; they are are not a bunch of idlers. They are people with decades of field work in political parties, NGOs, business, and government – even if this is a very small team yet (started end-December last year).

These people must be go-getters. I don’t ‘admit’ people otherwise.And, no, I’m NOT waiting for Gandhi. And I’m not Gandhi myself, so I don’t want anyone to wait for me. Instead, I’m herding all the Gandhis that can be found in India today. People like you. I want them **here**, to come together and to lead India. I want you – and the team – to succeed — to succeed beyond your own wildest imagination.

And to make India the greatest country the world has ever seen.

And so the question I ask you is:
(a) how you will become PM of India, and

(b) what you will do when you get there? I ask this because India doesn’t have a shortage of people who ‘do’ things in India. Millions of NGOs abound. And we have tens of candidates in elections. No shortage of civil society. But we have a real shortage of people who have the right philosophy.

My political actions in the past (and this effort) are entirely a part of that philosophy. I also happen to be a specialist in the area of policy (and to some extent, strategy). My policy suggestions are outlined at http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/breakingfree.html

Essentially my argument is that no one can succeed in shifting India’s corruption and mis-governance without shifting its foundational principle from equality to freedom (with accountability), ie, from socialism to capitalism, or classical liberalism. And then, assiduously working to achieve world-best policy.

But do read a bit about my thoughts and then, more importantly, do tell me about yours. I’m interested in knowing what you believe in, not in what you do. That doing bit is ONLY important to me if it is aligned to delivering true freedom and greatness to India. Else I’ve done enough in
my life to last many lifetimes, and I’ve seen enough action in my life as well to keep me engrossed in memories till I die. I’m happy to read your writings to understand you better. Compatibility in philosophy is crucial.

One more question. What could you possibly lose by working with other like-minded people even on a boring thing as an email group? These others may be able to support and publicise your efforts. So if you want to try out the Freedom Team, check out:
http://www.freedom.sabhlokcity.com/whoshouldjoin.html.

You must meet the criteria. If you don’t like it here, you can always leave by the mere act of unsubscribing! You are free to choose in this Team. It is called Freedom Team for a reason.

.
***

Comment by B Shantanu:

LIC,

I have enormous respect for what you, Shri Misra, Sanjiv and Ujjwal are doing and will continue to support alll of you in your endeavours.

To me “walking the talk” is a 24hr/365-days a year job…AND it does not pay. And in that sense, you are right, I am not walking the talk. Why? Two main reasons:

1] I have responsibilities that I cannot forego and I do not have the luxury of not needing to work and 2] Equally importantly, I am still working on an action plan which includes, amongst other things, having clear, coherent and practical view on a range of issues that confront us, as a society and as a nation.

Does that mean my efforts will always be limited to “theorizing” and armchair strategizing? I hope not. In my mind I have a clear view of a few years after which I will be able to devote time to do this. If things go in a certain way, that day may be much nearer.

Until then, I am working hard on developing my awareness about the issues that confront us and thinking of ways to ameliorate them. I personally see this as a 10-year project and I am not even half way there.

It does not – at this stage – match your effort(s) or that of Shri Misra, Sanjiv or Ujjwal or even Sanjeev Sabhlok (and indeed many others).

Yet, I would like to believe that in my own small way, I am making some difference.

And to be clear, I am not “waiting for mr. gandhi to come along” – I believe each one of us has a Gandhi within.

Finally, here is another link for you to have a look at. This is a post in which I had outlined some thoughts for the nascent political parties that have been formed in the past few years: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/04/13/bpd-bm-lp-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/

I hope we can continue this dialogue.

I have one question for you. After your Lead India experience, do you believe that individuals can still make a difference or do you feel one must have a group of people and supporters (specifically, a political party) to bring about fundamental change?

.

***
Comment by Sanjeev:

Shantanu, I agree with your approach of thinking and ensuring success before entering into the ‘maidan’. An overall strategy is necessary. I’m not interested in a half-baked effort which is totally guaranteed to fail, or not achieve what needs to be done. Today India is an independent country and democracy.

This is not about one-man mass movements, though leadership will still be important. This is about winning democratic government and getting the mandate to make a change.

Sanjeev,

I would like to understand the economics of your platform better. This is the key issue I struggle with when I look at these newer parties – whether it is your concept of Lok Paritran.

How do you fund an election campaign? More importantly how do you build a political party? Let us assume, for the moment, that you have got your 1500 committed people – but to succeed in elections, I think you need at least 150 party workers per constituency? That is the bare minimum in my calculation – I think you will need 500 per constituency.

But, let us take the number of 150: 150 x 542 seats = 81,300 party workers. Where will these come from? How do you pay for them pre-elections. I would think that you need at least two years of preparation to contest successfully – let us assume we pay an average stipend of Rs1000 pm (very reasonable in my opinion) – that works out to a pre-election cost of Rs195cr!!!!!

Then take election costs campaigning ……. I am assuming a paltry Rs15lacs per constituency (printing banners, travel costs, food costs, etc). That in turn works out to another Rs81cr.

And, these are minimum costs in my opinion to fight a national level election. Hence, please explain the economics of your plan.

I have been thinking about and discussing a different approach to political reforms for the past 5-6 yrs with my group of “thinkers” – I call it the Trojan Horse approach. At least, the economics are taken care of by my approach.

Cheers

***

Dear VCK,

Thanks!

Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers

Shantanu,

1. No where in the discussion it is apparent that you subscribe to this idea of bringing 1500 people together to build a Freedom team. Am waiting to hear that…

2. To some extent, I agree with LIC that this concept is very abstract and it has very limited practical value.

3. I would disagree with the argument that only political parties built with a certain type of individuals can bring a lasting fundamental change and is the only answer to most of the problems.

4. The attributes of the individuals (to qualify for the Freedom team) are highly subjective. There is no way to objectively evaluate them, right (honesty, integrity, commitment…)? Some one with integrity in my opinion may not have integrity in your opinion…and vice versa

5. A person who is a doer is not a great strategist..And strategists don’t need to get their hands dirtied..I don’t buy this.

6. The changes brought about individual contributors are more lasting…

An example: Am not sure if you know how pathetic the public transport system of Indore used to be till about a couple of yrs ago. They now have become the role model for all the big cities to follow. The second best in the world, I suppose. The person who brought that change is Vivek Agrawal, a 1995 batch IAS officer. He studied the best systems in the world and led this change. They have the best in class buses, a GPRS based tracking system and a lot more.. So, the bottom line is this system is not only providing a convenient, cheap and user-friendly (the bus conductor smiles and wishes you, they have low floors for easy boarding/alighting) transport to our dear Indoris, but it is a profitable venture too(the revenue comes fm tickets and advertisements on bus panels)

7. It is more practical to identify one problem in hand and resolve it completely. Rather than picking 100 problems and not arriving at a single solution..There is no panacea not even with the team of 1500 great people.

PS: The discussion is very engaging.

All, my heartfelt thanks for such an engaging, thought-provoking and insightful discussion of various points. I am adding my views below.

***

@ vck: This comment of yours struck a chord:

“Walk in the polluted dumps after the rains, where the seawage flows alongside the “Kitchen and diningroom”. Eat on the floor where things have happened during day and night! Eat along as you see a funeral pass by and also celeberate a marriage when there is funeral taking place next door!!
You must be able to bear the mosquitos and either wash your backside or wash your mouth – the choice is yours!! – with the sngle “Lotta” of water you have at your disposal.”

Like you, I have experienced the “rough” in India, seen grinding poverty and some truly saddening things.

As I mentioned in a previous comment, POLITICS is a FULL-TIME JOB, IT DOES NOT PAY, YOU CAN pretty much FORGET ABOUT YOUR FAMILY LIFE and you will very likely be LIVING UNDER the THREAT of physical harm – if you are upright and stick to your principles, that is…

THIS is what STOPS MOST GOOD, HONEST, UPRIGHT, CAPABLE AND PASSIONATE PEOPLE FROM JOINING POLITICS – and that is why the task of raising 1500 leaders is herculean – and will take time.

The difference between you and me (please correct me here if I am wrong) is that I am an (eternal) optimist and someday I hope to, in your memorable words, “walk on the sand without chappals at about noon in summer in Nagpur or Ramagundam” and I hope you will be alongside me so that we can bring about change.

***

@ Prakash: I agree with you that “the idea of straight away contesting a national election in such a diverse country is impossible”…but can we not make a start – and have strategy, a plan and then work on the tactics?

Is it possible for any of these new political parties to fight national elections on their own, across all seats? NO..

Does that mean that they should just wait until conditions are right and do nothing? Not at all… This is the time to plan…to form support groups, to raise resources, to consider tactics…and as you say, develop a grassroots base…

Unfortunately most of us cannot actually work at the grassroots level either because of physical limitations (e.g. Sanjeev is in Australia) or family responsibilities – or perhaps both.

But that does not mean(in my humble opinion) that we should just shut up and take it as it comes. As long as we agree on the end goal, “a strong and successful India”, we have hope!

***
@ Patriot: You raise a very interesting – and important – point about “Freedom of the individual vs Freedom of the collective – how do you actually draw lines? Should you draw lines? And, does the freedom of the individual include the right to secede from the collective?”

It was actually raised and discussed (briefly) once before. See here for a critique by Subadra and my comment on this.

Finally re the point about “economics of your platform”

That’s the one question that I think we don’t discuss to much on this forum…why? At one level it is much easier to “pretend”/”assume” that money does not matter (it will come somehow) at another level, the challenge is so enormous, that it can be hard to even begin thinking about this problem…

But coming back to your point….

Funds for a campaign: As Geeta has commented later on, she has heard this numerous times before that funds will not be a problem..and yet no one has a clear action plan for raising the kind of resources you need to fight an election…

Could they come from individual donors? Possibly. Will that be enough? Possibly not…Is there another way of approaching this? How about starting a newspaper? Or starting a news channel or starting some other venture/business and then using the profits to fund the campaign…would this be “right”?
I don’t know…but isnt this something similar to Shiv Khera using his network snd skills (and book) to launch his own political effort?

Party workers: Another monumental challenge…and the reason it is a challenge is that while it is easy to find 100s of “party workers” in even the smaller towns in India, most of them are completely unsuitable to the kind of change that we are hoping for. Besides, such people are, in all likelihood, fail several of our “filters” for membership.

Which leaves you with the option of either ignoring the filters (and hire the usual kind of people who join politics) or you have to think of another way of doing this.

What other way could there be? Honestly at this stage, I don’t know

And the same goes for pre-election costs..

So I am very interested to hear about your “Trojan Horse approach” especially if it manages to take care of the “economics”…I think I can guess what you are hinting at but I woud not like to make any assumptions…

So please share it here- with us on this platform…

***

@ Pragya: To make it absolutely clear, I do endorse and subscribe to the idea of bringing 1500 people together”.

In my mind, getting people together has to be the first and critical step – not necessarily physically together, but aligned on thought, strategy and action plan…

Your other points are thought-provoking but I will let Sanjeev respond to them

And while “changes brought about individual contributors” may be more “lasting”, they can rarely create a system-wide impact – which is what we need – not 50 towns with excellent public transport but a country with excellent public transport and an excellent public transport organization that works efficiently and effectively.

And yes, “It is more practical to identify one problem in hand and resolve it completely”…In my mind, that ONE problem is bad, inefficient, ineffective governance and incapable leadership – full stop.

***

@ Geeta: Your views are invaluable – as you have actually run the gauntlet and gone through this mill…

So let me respond as best as I can (from the viewpoint of an interested observer)

“I have observed that such people go ahead and form their own group rather than joining somewhere else….” That is an important point…
What you have observed is very true and our challenge will be to convince them that they will be able to better achieve their objectives and aspirations by being part of the collective group rather than sticking it out as individuals (as in the case of LIC)

The minimum number in my head is 50 elected representatives – without that the group and its ideology is likely to have no impact on policy or discussions.

If there is any way to share the presentation that you attended by Professionals Party of India), that would be great. I am happy to host it on this blog…

***

All: Thanks for such a high-quality exchange of thoughts…Please continue to contribute…and do feel free to invite others who may have different ideas/view points…

Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.

Whew! That’s a lot of comments. Given time limitations I’ll not address the issues individually but discuss the key principles.

In my view the Freedom Team is a platform for the kind of leaders India needs in its government—namely, individuals who believe in individual freedom (subject to accountability), and are willing to contest elections. This is not a ground-up effort for a very deliberate and conscious reason. It is unashamedly a top-down effort.

The reason is that this effort is NOT about political power or merely getting elected and becoming an MP or a Minister. This is PURELY about delivering a certain set of policies that will lead India to greatness. Since the alignment of philosophy and policy is very important, hence it starts at the top, by identifying the right leaders. For example, anyone who believes in socialism in any of its shapes and forms cannot be a part of the Team. Indeed, it is quite likely that some of people who initially join the Team may leave as policy discussions evolve.

And so, the strategy is:
– get the right people onboard who agree on the broad philosophy;
– get agreement on broad policy; and
– then start thinking of next steps.

Without the first two, there is no point in thinking about elections and getting elected. There are already sufficient number of candidates in elections. The question is: why do you want to get elected and what will you do if you became Prime Minster?

I did get excited in 2004 (Swatantra Bharat Party or SBP) and tried to focus straight on the Parliamentary elections by short-circuiting the first two steps, and it led to extremely unsatisfactory results. Significant money was wasted. That money could have done much more good by people printing and writing brochures for wide dissemination, instead. There was no awareness building. There was no leadership team. That was a very poor strategy. I therefore do not any seen any strategic value in jumping straight to the ‘ground’ and building a constituency, until the leadership team is fully assembled.

The other important thing about this effort is its belief that India does not need Lone Rangers, battling alone. That may satisfy a particular individual’s ego, but it doesn’t deliver overarching systemic reforms or help India in the greater sense. I have also done enough ‘small’ things in my life and do not want to waste a single second of my life on such things. I want the entire country to do better than the world’s best, not merely one person, one village, one town, or one state.

The interesting thing about the West is that they always focus on getting their ‘big picture’ right, first. The rest then flows, naturally. In my current role we deliver on the principles of good regulation to the state of Victoria, eg. see the VGR – a 2.2 MB PDF document at http://www.vcec.vic.gov.au/ (go under Regulation Review, and then under What’s new). After that it is a matter of closely monitoring that these principles are observed. Good principles matter more than intensive action on the ground. By setting world-best standards of policy, the best outcomes for the people can be delivered even by ordinarily competent bureaucrats.

Toda, India’s big picture is a total mess. That is why I wrote my book (BFN – see http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/breakingfree.html), explaining what is wrong and what should be done to fix the system. While India needs a lot of other leaders doing thousands of ‘small’ things, the Freedom Team is not intended for such ‘small’ things. It is purely focused on creating a platform to deliver the right policy to India.

A key pre-requisite to forming government in a democracy is to have a group of people aligned to your one’s in parliament. Therefore I don’t value any effort which sees less than 500 closely aligned people contesting elections — all at one go. Smaller efforts which do not form government are unlikely to matter. Rajaji’s Swatantra party was the major opposition in India and surely did some good, but could not stop the socialist policies of Nehru.

The other pre-requisite is for such people to be team players, not individuals with massive egos. If the glory of India is not SOLE focus of a person, then he or she is not welcome to the Freedom Team. Such a person should seek individual glory elsewhere. The closely related requirement is humility, a key quality of a level 4 or 5 leader. Geeta, I don’t agree that those who are level 4/5 form their own groups. They are not level 4/5 leaders but lower people who are seeking glory for themselves. The true level 4/5 leaders work as a team and only care for the outcome: in this case to create the greatest country ever in the world – India. You won’t find them being arrogant and boastful, but constantly seeking to learn from others and trying to contribute to the group effort.

Another thing. My past efforts such as SBP failed because I invited too many armchair intellectuals to the group, people who had no intention ever of contesting elections or of shouldering organisational responsibilities. That doesn’t work. Hence the Freedom Team does not want any adviser. Its leaders can hire advisers if needed.

The Freedom Team will physically assemble only when a critical mass is assembled – in my view 1500 leaders. Smaller groups of the Team can meet before that if they wish. The Team may decide to become a political party one day, or its members may decide to contest elections individually or as small groups allied to each other.

At the moment, it is only looking to assemble the right kind of leaders. Once the right people are on board and fully aligned, I believe that funds will come. Just as we buy shares in an IPO from Tatas or Ambanis, based on the quality of people running these companies, people will subscribe to this group (or any other group) of 1500 leaders working in a focused direction. The group will need not less than Rs.150 crores (Rs. 30 lakhs per constituency, being Rs. 5 lakhs for awareness building prior to elections, and Rs.25 lakhs at the time of elections). If that kind of money cannot be raised, then this effort should NOT proceed at that stage to elections, but do other things instead, to build a presence.

Will this whole thing be difficult? Of course! No advance in freedom has been easy. Liberty does not come cheaply. And greatness as a country is not going to be simple.

At the same time, the choice for Indians is clear: you can continue doing the same thing and hope that ‘implementation’ will magically improve by voting one corrupt politician or other into power. Or you can provide a mandate to best leaders of India to radically shift the incentives and governance frameworks: changes which are guaranteed to deliver outstanding results. The choice is stark: between failure (today’s policies) and success (the policies of the Freedom Team/ similar allied group/s).

I’d like to focus my very limited spare time entirely on completing my second book (on the history of freedom) for a few months, so can I request other members of the Freedom Team to respond to questions on this forum? I’ll try to chip in when I find a spare moment.

Each member of the Freedom Team is an independent leader in his or her own right, and can respond as an independent and full member. Indeed, it is crucial that members of the Freedom Team write extensively, publish articles, write brochures and generally reach out to the people. This team effort, by definition, is NOT a one-man show, nor should it EVER be dependent on any one person.

India is a country of one billion people. It should be able to generate sufficient number of high calibre leaders in each generation who are committed to working respectfully and democratically as a team with other like-minded people to lead India to freedom and greatness.

Thanks, once again, to the vibrant discussion. I want good people to continue to ‘apply’ to join, and take leadership roles in their own country’s future.

Regards,
Sanjeev

Dear Patriot

I am quite clear that my model is the best model going ‘in the market’ today, and I’ll outline the reasons for that claim below. You are entitled to your opinion about this model being ‘naïve’, but many times you’ll find, simplicity, and going straight for the jugular is the best approach to a complex problem.

1) Funds: This is hard, but not the big a deal you make it out to be. I have already raised funds in the past, and know the key limitations to raising funds, which this model will overcome. The last effort I organized (2004) raised a few lakh rupees virtually overnight. Funds flow in fast and thick if there is CREDIBILITY in the approach. You’ll be taken aback at how fast funds flow in.

The reason why the effort of 2004 could not raise more money was because it did not have a leadership team of 1500 outstanding leaders wanting to contest elections. Only 2 persons were willing to contest elections – and these two had already been in politics for a while. Even JP, who later started his Lok Satta party in late 2006, and was part of my 2004 effort, thought that his group Lok Satta didn’t intend to contest elections. Without leaders you can’t lead! Politics 101. But show high quality leaders and everyone will fund the effort.

I know of a big industrialist who has committed to crores of rupees if a credible effort comes up. I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT about the ability to raise a measly Rs. 150 crores once the right people assemble. In fact, what is Rs. 150 crores – a trivial amount. For a massive size of India’s population, Rs. 150 crores is merely Rs.1.50 per Indian.

Funds can be raised from the 300 million strong India middle classes who can contribute Rs.10 each and that should be sufficient to run the show, as well. Using the internet to collect small donations will be the preferred strategy of the future. Would you not be willing to put in Rs. 10 to get good governance?

In other words, funds can be in weeks or a few months at most, once a full fledged team assembles. That is therefore the least of the problems of the Freedom Team.

2) Awareness building: The Freedom Team effort recognises the need to build awareness for at least 3 years in a focused manner (say, with the approval of the policy blueprint, and brochures in all languages, by the national conference of the Team of 1500 people, marking time 0). That period will not only help to raise funds but most importantly, will spread awareness of the policy changes advocated among the people.

The previous effort failed because none of the armchair intellectual participants was willing to go out and build awareness of the effort. They wouldn’t even push their pen to write a brochure. They had more pressing things to do such as write their usual articles in newspapers/ magazines. Such people are no longer welcome. Anyone who is not willing to pull his or her weight is not wanted. The 1500 people who join MUST be determined to succeed. If not, they can’t call themselves level 4 or 5 leaders, and they don’t qualify for this effort.

3) Policy. Please do not mock the policy platform of the Team. It is rock solid and powerful. This group is not about equality and fraternity, by the way. It is ONLY about freedom. From that flows equality of opportunity. Capitalism. And from these two flow a range of policies which have transformed the world wherever these have been implemented. And many more, that have not yet been implemented anywhere, and which India can implement and benefit from.

India really has one choice only: continue with the failed policies of the past 60 years, or give the policies of this group a chance.

4) Selection process: I am looking for leaders, not participants for an internet chit-chat ‘group’. If a leader can’t demonstrate in 3-4 paragraphs his or her claim to leadership, then that person is not a leader. I do not undertake any ‘big brother’ filtering process; merely insist that people meet the key criteria and they tell the gatekeeper of the team (not me now, but Geeta Gokhle), in 3-4 paras what they have actually done, or believe in. If that is too hard for someone to do, then we don’t want that person.

In fact, that early disclosure is only the beginning. The Team will ultimately demand TOTAL TRANSPARENCY from each member – virtually 100 per cent self-disclosure. This team is about a making public effort which is built on credible leaders. We can’t convert this into an anonymous internet group where people take on flattering pseudonyms like ‘Patriot’ and hide behind a veil of anonymity. If you are really interested, Patriot, you’ll have to tell me who you are, and what you have done or believe in. I do not intend to make this Team into a futile internet chat group where everyone can join and then do nothing but write sporadically. We are targeting a national conference of 1500 real leaders as first step after the group assembles on the internet. I can’t afford to have 1500 anonymous emails joining this group.

Bluntly put, you have a choice (and the freedom) – to be a spectator and criticize this effort. You also the choice to dismiss this effort by calling it naïve.

OR you have the choice to sign up as a real human being who is prepared for 100% DISCLOSURE about himself or herself over time, PROVIDED you believe in the philosophy of freedom.

4) MY CONTESTING ELECTIONS: Your comment: “And, if you are not going to contest elections (like you mention)”

Don’t rule me out yet. I have clearly said and will repeat: I spent many years with that single aim of being part of a group of liberals who will contest elections in India. But I refuse to do half-baked things. I will return to India at the right time. This is not a ‘dud’ effort. I am not 50 yet, so I have some time to go before becoming incapable of walking and talking.

On this other thing I am clear as well: the Freedom Team is not designed to only last my lifetime; it is designed to live for ever. The 1500 leaders it will assemble will never wait or depend on anyone, let alone a naïve Sanjeev. This is a platform for leaders, not a one-man show.

If you have alternative and more realistic models to offer (apart from the usual recommendations of (1) ‘do nothing’ and let the corrupt rule the roost, or (2) be a lone ranger and run your own battle in some corner of India to transform India) then I’d be happy to hear from you.

Regards
Sanjeev

Sanjeev, I will respond to your suggestion in a day or two.

Separately, I posted this comment on the Indian Economy Blog almost a year ago. I think it has relevance to this discussion

***

The optimist in me says that at some point over the next 10-15 years, things will change (assuming that the socio-economic growth continues – and the benefits are distributed relatively evenly)…what gives me real hope though is the transformation in traditional media because of technology…

As someone has commented above, once this happens, the cost of reaching out to voters (which is where most of campaign financing goes – and which is the BIGGEST barrier for any reasonably honest person to even consider standing for elections) will hopefully drop to a point where it no longer is an impediment…

Second, it is only when enough of the populace have their stomachs full and a comfortable shelter for their families that true political reform can come about…until then most of us would be too busy worrying (or working) for their next meal…Again, that probably means a wait of 10 years or so for fundamental reform to emerge…

Over the longer term though, all is not lost…

Dear Sanjeev,

I have not been able to reply to you earlier, as I have been a bit busy and the debate about “The Great State” took more of my immediate attention!

I will certainly revert.

Dear Suresh,

Thank you for your kind words!

I did not imply that we should be going out to raise funds today, but I did want to know how funds were going to be raised.

For the past 15 years, I have worked in the most capitalistic part of India – I have seen and worked with all these “great visionary capitalists” that you talk about, at close quarters. So, excuse me, if I do not buy, in toto, yours or Sanjeev’s or Geeta’s argument that the funds will come if you have the right platform. I am sure that the funds will come but it appears to me that you have not devoted enough time to the “cost” of these funds. And, if you think there will be no costs, then I think you guys should just go back to your books.

Khushwant Singh????? Gurcharan Das?????? Surely, you are joking, Suresh. These people are dilettantes – they have no standing in politics.

And, I have to ask why a committee of 5 people either? Smacks of arbitrary elitism to me? Why can you not let people join if they think they fit in and then let their actions prove whether they are worthy or not? That would be true Freedom.

Cheers

Namaste to All,

I have been following the entire thread and the exchange of some very interesting and enlightening ideas.

I am the Jt General Secretary of the- Overseas Friends of BJP in UK. (So that you know my ideological and political leaning). I am 34 and have been in the UK for the past 4 years. Being here my objective has been to identify and explore the possibilities of grafting certain institutions back in Bharat, that western democracies have created over the past few centuries, when the natural course of Bharat’s development had stopped. In essence as Sanjeev puts it, “.. the alignment of philosophy and policy is very important, ..”

Perhaps my experience is very limited. However, I have worked in the rural, tribal , slums and urban areas of Bharat, closely interacting with people from almost all classes and walks of life. I have also worked with, a think tank along with former Foreign and Cabinet Secretaries etc. In the UK,I have been with the govt (social services) again interacting with people from diverse ethnic backgrounds, race and beliefs.
Why ? To get the bigger picture (at the global level) and where and how Bharat fits into it.

What Sanjeev is doing is commendable, unfortunately people fail to comprehend and appreciate his endevour. Life overseas is tough in a different way ( as explained in the post above by Sanjeev). Bearing in mind the complexity of the issue, I think Sanjeev has clarified most of the points quite clearly. I feel that some people in their posts have been a bit too harsh towards him. What this post has achieved (must congratulate Shantanu for that as well) is that it has prompted people to ask the right questions and has set an agenda.

Bharat is rising from its long deep slumber and what it needs is a model of growth, a vision for its way ahead. It is said that people who reach places are the ones who know where they are headed. Unfortunately, most of the Indian leaders fail to realize this. Wearing a kurta pyjama/dhoti, forming a social group or political party at best can resolve local or regional issues not national/international. With the best of the intentions to reform the society without a properly articulated vision and policies, we by default, tend to follow the same straight jacket approach towards development which people have pursued for years without much consequence. As Albert Einstein remarked, “The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

What Bharat needs is re-engineering, a radical redesign. The challenge is not “development” but “sustainable development”. We would have a heard the success stories of many civil servants and statesmen- Ministers, Collectors, Chief Ministers etc. We need to nurture a system, which promotes such people and institutionalises their efforts and practises. Identifies and gets rid of any unnecessary baggage stored over thousands of years in our history. Such systems can only be created if we are able to first “understand” and second “define”: What is “India/ Bharat” ?

(The following by no means is an attempt to lecture on “self talking” but sharing my experience with you and highlighting common follies in the thinking process of reformers/leaders )

When trying to understand (what is Bharat?) or talking to yourself don’t use “words”. You will never understand or reach anywhere and would be forced to take the beaten path. Hence, “visualize” (try hard – like trying to see something behind the blue sky or like an inquisitive innocent child peeping into the neighbours hazy window ). “Words” are definitions of what already exists. Be careful “definitions” define/limit your “vision”. To “understand”, our “mind” needs to be free from all “define-itions” and pre-conceived notions. Once we “understand”, then and only then comes “defining”. As it is essential to be specific, while communicating with the outside world i.e. as a team player to other members and as a leader to the masses.

All these years I have consciously worked on “understanding India/ Bharat” (first stage). Now, what is daunting is “defining” what I have “understood” (as for me it only exists in visuals and everything besides words. All this may sound ambiguous but if you stop thinking in words you would understand). “Defining” would become easier if I asked myself the vital question which Sanjeev posed, “ what does one do if he becomes the PM ? ” (This is the transition from “Vision” to “Words”.) Defining, being specific – “aligning philosophy with policy”.

Eg: If I were to ask myself: In its present form would the Pradhan Mantri Rozgar yojna benefit the unemployed youth ? Yes and No, would be derived in the light of the vision I have for the youth of Bharat. Since time immemorial, policies define frameworks within which the society operates. The driving force of these policies needs to be derived from vision of the leadership. Over decades and centuries a vast network of these frameworks stemming from or without a vision, popular or unpopular, just or unjust, gradually became the norm and eventually cultures and subcultures and further some in their very extreme forms popular philosophies (eg. Marxism, capitalism, etc)

Capitalism, Communism or any other ism may or may not be Bharat’s tomorrow. However, if we started reforming Bharat, without a vision, in all probability we would merely be cleaning and refurbishing the house that is going to be razed to the ground in a few days time.
Eg. If Indian and Chinese populations continue to adopt western life styles or consuming resources by western standards, think of the ecological disaster that awaits the world.

Another example of how policy frameworks affect us – Global economic processes and their dynamics have a direct correlation with people’s behaviour and their self-concept. The English introduced the Scottish banking system in India, which eventually changed the way trade and business was carried out. Gradually this system evolved and gave birth to many contemporary professions such as sales-marketing, Human Resource management etc; terminologies like – acquisition and mergers, hostile takeover, social entrepreneurs etc. Some professions, the past two generations had not heard about. The new framework gently forced people to specialize in certain areas and people became their professions.

As Aristotle said, “ You are what you repeatedly do”. Hence, if our (in this context the Freedom team) policies change economic systems, we can change people’s experience of life, their self-concept and the very idea of life. “Change to what ?” (what is the proposed alternative ?) could only be answered by the “vision” we generate. On a long sea voyage, to reach your destination it is wiser to follow the stars rather than a big ship.

India’s polity cannot afford to be neither left nor right. It can only be forward and that is my mission to define (and that is how I would like the BJP to be positioned). Without a vision, “Freedom” would always seem to be the slogan of the new oppressor. Even though, being in power, in the absence of a long-term vision, one would not be able to deliver in real terms, besides dodging problems as and when they might arise. Hence, I always keep reminding myself the following :

“With careful and detailed planning, one can win; with careless and less detailed planning, one can not win. How much more certain is defeat if one does not plan at all! From the way planning is done beforehand, we can predict victory or defeat.”
Sun Tzu. — The Art of War, c.400 BC

Its common knowledge that power does force people to act “funny” specially, when it comes to parting with it. If not anything, most people want to cling to fame that comes free tagged along with political power. Its rightly said, “ Fame the last infirmity of the noble mind”. Unsure and insecure, one tends to find reasons to continue with his regime and would do everything to stop people with a vision and mission (which he never learned to value). This has been the state of affairs in Bharat for a long time now. A shared vision gives a mission to people and a reason to come together. In the political sphere, starting with a good intention does not suffice.

Politics is not a linear 100 meter dash. It needs a team of people (as Sanjeev says 1500) with the stamina to run the roller coater political marathon. Lack of vision frustrates the noblest intentions. A shared vision provides the resilience and fuel to survive the lowest points in public life. As leaders at some point in our lifetimes, we need to graduate from “this would not work” to “this is what would work”.

As far as I understand, this is what Sanjeev is trying to achieve with his India Freedom team. He is trying to nurture a vision for great nation like Bharat. It is clear that he has a strategic and tactical plan. There may be shortcomings and some questions may remain unanswered but again he seems open for suggestions. Being creative and innovative needs courage that’s why most people take the beaten path and can only see as far as reforming what exists…unable to propose anything new.

Ambiguity is scary and enquiry is painful for most people but not for everybody. The future belongs to the brave. Great strategy and flawless execution are just the price of entry.

Not sure what Sanjeev thinks about my political associations. However, I would like to extend all the support I can muster up for him, as at the end of the day it is Bharat that has to win at all costs and by all means.

Also wish to thank Shantanu for creating this opportunity and bringing together contributors like VC Krishnan, Patriot, Ashish,Suresh Anand, Indian, Prakash, Geeta, Pragya, Cdr Khilari, Dnyanesh and others. Its rightly said, “ The missing link in development is communication”. Your blog has proven to be just that missing link.

Regards,
Amitabh Soni

Dear All

Glad to have this debate. I am extremely thankful to all the participants for raising issues

While differing from you on some aspects please be aware I respect you and your views, for in them could be the seeds of thought which lead me to better answers. I have a selfish interest in open discussions criticism and debates, no matter how heated. I test my very limited understanding of the truth through this process. So please don’t think my hastily crafted (for obvious reasons) replies are disrespectful even if they may sound as such.

Second, I question why I must find all the answers. Why it is my responsibility to tell you how funds will be generated? Why can’t you (if you join the Freedom Team) find these answers out and solve the problem? The principle of questioning me must be questioned. Am I am Oracle of Delhpi? Am I an all-knowing God? Hey, I’m just like you, possibly far more ordinary and far more ignorant. You who bring questions MUST propose solutions. That is the principle by which the Team must function. Anyone bringing a question to the Team MUST bring a recommended answer as well. High quality talent is needed on this team PURELY in the role of leaders, not as disciples or followers. Don’t follow me please! Don’t bother one bit about my ignorance. Thrash my ideas with a stick as soundly as you can, for then only will truth emerge – upon being soundly beaten!

On a more mundane note, I wish my publisher had allowed me to provide the full version of my book on the web. I wrote about 450 pages and was then asked to trim that down to 350: too fat, not commercially viable. After that, only 50% of that was permitted to be placed on the web. The copy-editing process and printing process is taking its own time. So my 450 page material is not available to read yet. (I’ve placed the balance 100 pages or so at: http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/BFN-Notes.doc if you are interested).

Plus the more basic material, on what I think freedom means, and how far mankind has reached in that journey, was squeezed out completely and has become a second book, which will take me another few months to release a draft on the internet.

I know in the hustle and bustle of the internet world, people want instantaneous answers to their questions, but maybe if you can wait to read the first book when it is released and then the second one to be released in draft (both these should be available by June 2008) then the number of questions could be reduced. Just recapitulating, I started the Freedom Team as a direct next step suggested in my book. I had to suggest a next step, and so I created this team virtually at the last minute while completing the book. It is really difficult to summarise the reasons for this effort in a few paras.

In the meanwhile I believe that at least some of questions have been addressed in the preview at http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/breakingfree.html

WHAT DO WE MEAN BY OUR WORDS?

Words are very powerful, and yet often confusing.

1) The word ‘freedom’ has had significantly different interpretations over the past 2500 years and thousands of philosophers have written thousands of books on the subject. I prefer to use it in a tightly structured form, but unfortunately, most of that discussion is found in my second book. An outline at: http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/book1/appendix1.pdf

2) What is a ‘team’? That again has had hundreds of organizational experts talking at length in hundreds of books. I mean this word on this national leadership team largely in the sense of a commitment to the shared objectives, and not a commitment to the participating individuals. In other words, if people on the team are found wanting, they will have to be challenged immediately and asked to prove their bona fide, or leave. Corrupt people can’t be entertained, nor anyone who fails the test of integrity. The shared objective of the country’s greatness must come first. This is therefore a slightly ‘harsher’ definition of the meaning of the word, ‘team’.

3) What do I mean by capitalism. While the first book covers this issue at some length, its more fundamental questions are raised and discussed in the second one. In brief, it is the system of governance which tightly balances people’s freedom with their mutually negotiated accountability. It is built on a platform of total honesty and mutual regard (which includes tolerance at the least). I must re-iterate that businessmen are not capitalists – they are mere businessmen. For some reason people mix up businessmen with capitalists. I’d like to use this term in the common sense way. I am a capitalist because I believe in capitalism, just like socialist are those who believe in socialism.

4) What do I mean by total transparency – again, I have explained in my first book and also at point 6 at http://www.freedom.sabhlokcity.com/whoshouldjoin.html. I have set an sort of example by letting everyone know my background and details on my website. I will also fully disclose all my assets should I enter full-time politics. Being in public life needs far greater disclosure than leading a private life does (even of key aspects of one’s private life and activities).

I apologise for these hastily crafted and incomplete answers – I truly can’t think of a way to answer them more sensibly. But I must ask you to offer your own answers each time you ask a question. A final reminder: all my proposals are tentative – being attempts to seek the ways to improve India; each waiting to be overturned by better proposals.

But we have to begin somewhere. Some things have to be set in stone (at least temporarily) in order to allow a debate to occur. I am, for instance, not changing the Freedom Team ‘entry process’ at this early stage, no matter if this process is seen to be autocratic or not. I know why I am doing this and I will not waver from my FIRM determination to ensure that only high quality talent committed to freedom is brought in to this Team. The concept of asking 3-4 paragraphs from people who wish to join is not troublesome, particularly after I have written a million paragraphs over the past 10 years in the public domain.

At this early stage I have ‘admitted’ people without knowing their names once I am confident about their beliefs. An instance is Shantanu himself. I don’t know who he is except what I know of his writings – which I respect. I don’t know his last name, and I have not asked. So if you wish to join under the title of Patriot, you can. Now that I (and others reading this) know you better, I’m sure Geeta will admit you without much ado. The initial entry process is merely designed to help inform a judgement on suitability. You don’t have to send in 3-4 paras if that bothers you. I’ll welcome you to this team. While I’ll be puzzled about your absolute non-disclosure of name at this stage, I won’t bother you about it! My goal is not to shut out interested and capable people, but to encourage them.

In that context, I’d like to make a firm commitment that once the first 100 people assemble at a pre-convention in India (say next year), then they will take charge of all processes. They will design everything that will happen in the future. My job will be to act as a dissenter and not rest until I am satisfied that the highest standards of transparency, integrity and respect are woven into the processes of the Team. No detail will be left unexplored, for the success, ultimately, arises from great attention to detail.

Finally, a word of special thanks to Amitabh Soni. I thank you for your considered contribution. I hope you plan to return to India and will consider joining the Freedom Team.

Your being in BJP is a potential issue, but look, I know that my job is to try to persuade everyone in India to get over the hurdle towards a secular framework for India’s future greatness. If anyone brings in religious baggage, for instance by justifying the demolition of the Babri Masjid and such actions that were supported by leaders of the BJP, then I’ll vehemently dissent and give battle. But if people agree to live and to live and let live under mutually agreed rules of tolerance and respect of all religions and all beliefs (so long as no one takes each other’s lives or demolishes their buildings), the Freedom Team will welcome them. Being in the BJP is not in-principle incompatible with being on the freedom team so long as you personally OPPOSE (not just dislike) the excesses of the BJP and commit to the principles of freedom and integrity.

Regards
Sanjeev

An alert reader sent me this link re. a remarkable grassroots political campaign taking place in London:

http://www.londonelectsyou.co.uk/About.aspx

Separately, Amitabh sent me this link re. interesting campaign tactics by one of the candidates for the Mayor’s election in London:

http://www.backboris.com/policy/index.php#

Comments and thoughts welcome, as always.

Thanks VCK and Sanjeev for your comments….

Sanjeev, I may not join the India team owing to our “ideological” differences. However, we could work together on areas like reforms in governance and building delivery mechanism. Rather, I would like to learn and seek your advice, as I do not see the point in reinventing the wheel. For centuries, one of India’s core belief and practice has been “Let noble thoughts come from all directions…” because nothing is permanent but change. The ideology that we have inherited and take it so much for granted……
It was not my intention to bring the much dreaded “H” (Hindu) word but following your comments, it seems I need to clarify things a bit further…..some of the bits have been clarified by VCK and I offer my earnest gratitude to him….

Organizations like the RSS and the BJP would have never come into existence if Islamic and Christian imperialism had not set their foot in India…..for that matter the term “Hindu” itself would not have come into existence. We may not need orgs like RSS and BJP in the future or their modus operandi might change, if the subversive activities of the church and the Islamists stopped. We all are aware that all the de-hinduised areas, virtually are not parts of India, any longer. The India that you and I wish to reform has been disintegrating and shrinking for quite sometime. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir, major parts of North East India are nothing but Islamicized and Christianized India (not to forget the sporadic naxal belts).

In 1995 an army officer on a patrol in Kashmir asked me a simple question (as my father was also in the army). Giving a background he asked “ J&K comprises of three areas Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. The people in Jammu (Hindu majority) and Ladakh (Buddhist majority) do not want independence from India. Why does Kashmir want it then ? We know the answer but such issues do not become the part of our philosophy neither our policy. A time may come when you might not actually need 1500 people but much less as India would have further disintegrated. I am sorry to say that I feel so surprised when people of your stature and comprehension miss the point completely and so badly. I don’t have to mention to you the figures of the death toll of our soldiers, (besides civilians) in wars and internal insurgency areas. These are the areas waiting for sharia to be implemented, the dictates of Mao to echo, the order of the bible to take over. They do not care if a Sanjeev Sablok has given his life and blood for India and wishes to reform it. Why? Because their masters and prophets centuries back offered “the solution” for the entire world. The India that you and I are talking about does not exist for them. They live for and by their “isms” and everything that feeds their pre-conceived notions. When we (RSS –BJP) try and organize a resistance on the ground and at a socio-political level, people like yourself condemn us of being anti-secular. We may have failed owing to our own poor tactical planning or lack of resources but the fact is we try. I thinkt, you fear that if the BJP comes to power it would be like Mohammed taking over Mecca and getting rid of the idols and their worshippers or perhaps you foresee the rise of hindu Khumeinis. No offence intended but sometimes I am forced to think that, the real success of the British lies in creating a class, a leadership, which would hate them for what they did, a class that would be close to the skin of India yet two inches above and apart as it would seek solutions within the framework they created. “Secular and democratic”

MS Word shows a red line underneath the word “de-hinduised”. This implies it does not exist in their dictionary. However, it needs to exist in your dictionary, my dictionary and the dictionary of India. In its true sense the word “Hindu” does not have a sectarian connotation. However, it does seem to acquire a sectarian face when compared with Islam and Christianity. These comparisons would continue to be made as long as other civilizations do not discover the concept of “dharma”. It can not be expected of other civilizations to comprehend what they don’t have but we need to and we must.

A ten thousand year old civilization (India) recently celebrated 60 years of being a Republic (26th Jan). How did it generate a figure of 10 k years ? Because it knew that nothing is permanent but change.You don’t grow old, you get old when you stop learning. Why does it celebrate 60 (years) of being a republic ? Because 60 years back it felt that was the change it needed. We celebrate change. India’s identity has always been in the making but has never been made. Let us keep it like that…Let us keep it away from all religions and isms. Including Hindusim (if there is any). Let the most contradictory philosophies co-exist but allow none to take over. Call/address people who believe in this as Hindus or Indians or whatever you may like. We never wanted to be a part of the brand war of religions because we never were a religion and would never ever be one. You may understand what I mean by “India’s identity has always been in the making but has never been made”. However, the common man of India may not be able to comprehend it intellectually, even though he lives and breathes the same idea. Just as we may not know how our digestive or voluntary system works but the fact is it works and works very well for us. Hence, for the common man the solutions need to be simple, given the size of the population and complex levels of comprehension. As Gobbles stated, “shorter the message higher the retention”. You cannot explain to them what I just stated.

We are today where we are because of what we are. The same applies to Pakistan and Bangladesh who were India until a few years back but chose to cling to the 7th Century. The Islamic imperial policy is very clear – Pakistan and Bangladesh are their fixed deposits. Those are Islamic states. No one else can lay a claim on them. India is a joint account. Plunder it as much as you please.

Well how do they operate? I shall give you an account of my experiences with Muslim and Christian evangelists in Madhya Pradesh and Sikkim. They pose questions to our innocent tribal and rural dwellers like, “ Why do you think my (wooden) cross does not sink and your Ganesh (clay) idol does ? or , “why do you not worship one god i.e. allah and why so many animals?” Such questions clearly do not seek clarification but are designed to ridicule and belittle their perceived competitors or the leading brand. And then for us (the parivaar) starts the story of inventing strategies to find preposterous answers to such preposterous questions. If you ask me a question in Arabic, I need to reply back in Arabic so that you can comprehend. ( Well if you think you can answer them in your language, try it. The fact remains that you need to engage with them. You can’t leave them to operate as they like.)

Secularism – The concept of, “imported secularism” has taken a deep seat in the minds of our intellectuals as a universal value for which as I said earlier, I admire our masters. However the truth is, the concept originated in England when Christianity was virtually kicked out of the English society when it could not co-exist with science and the art of reasoning. Science and technology had began to bring about pleasantly drastic changes in peoples lives. The term secularism was created in 1846 by George Jacob Holyoake in order to describe “a form of opinion which concerns itself only with questions, the issues of which can be tested by the experience of this life” (English Secularism, 60). This statement clearly highlights the fact that on the whole the experience of the English society with Christianity was not very pleasant. And that is the case till date – only about 8% people in the UK visit churches. However, this is not the case with India unless you choose to view it from a Marxist, Leninist view. (That is why I stated in my earlier post that don’t let words define your vision when you try to comprehend –“ What India is ?” You would end you up using borrowed/imported concepts.) Words have their own psychology and it is very easy for them to swiftly surpass the conscious mind and comfortably park and establish themselves in our subconscious mind. I understand there is a noble intention behind your idea of secularism but the fact that you are an opinion leader, has far reaching and with your idea of secularism has disastrous consequences with a multiplier effect. Hence, we need to be extremely careful and selective in what we intend to graft from foreign lands into a civilization, which has gained its momentum and character over a period of thousand years and has been living and breathing since.

I think I have said enough. Sanjeev, I apologize if my comments come across as bitter and harsh. I still have tremendous faith and respect for the work you are doing……

Regards,
Amitabh

Dear Amitabh

I’d like to reply in a long and round-about manner. Again, this is written very quickly due to other pressing engagements, and not edited properly, so please bear with me.

1) Re: “Organizations like the RSS and the BJP would have never come into existence if Islamic and Christian imperialism had not set their foot in India”.

History shows that Islamic kings did not come to India to spread Islam but to gain power; just like ordinary kings like Alexander the ‘Great’. Imperialism is a much later term which simply can’t be applied to Islam. Indeed, conquering others and looting them was a normal part of life in the distant past when Islam first came to India. Muslim kings aligned with Hindus in their battles equally as they fought against Muslims. Yes, a few Muslims were fanatics, but fanaticism is an individual disease, not the quality of an entire religion.

I suggest that Islam has played a major and vital role in human history. While Christianity completely discarded the learnings of the Greeks, it was Islam that has saved the entire civilization by protecting the thoughts of ancient Greece. Islamic kings were also generally extremely tolerant of other religions. Killing or use of threats was not their usual style of conversion. Many Indians did convert to Islam but that was to avail of the tax advantages available to them on becoming Muslim. That method (special taxes on non-Muslims) is not acceptable to modern sensibilities, but we are talking of truly primitive times. We cannot draw any worthwhile lessons today from the lives of primitive and ignorant people who are long dead and gone.

As far as Christianity is concerned, that religion had decomposed into violent internal infighting by the 1500s. Numerous internal massacres between different branches of Christianity (apart from the burnings and killings of the Inquisitions) led to the massive 1572 massacre of Protestants by Catholics in France. Many of the remaining Protestants later fled to what is now the USA. But this violence and discord also led to an intellectual rebellion – which is of great interest to all of mankind.

That rebellion led to the blossoming of the scientific mind in the West – and we benefit in our daily lives from that blossoming of the West. The disadvantages of the imperialism of the West pales in insignificance when compared to the advantages gained from Western science (which was nothing but Greek science taken to the next step). As indicated earlier, this process was significantly aided by the West rediscovering ancient Greek through the documents preserved by Islam.

It is important to note that when the East India Company came to India, as traders, in 1600, it had no missionary goals. It was merely a group of mercantilist traders, not scientists or thinkers. They were not ‘imperialists’ by any yardstick, and it took 157 years for them to gain a political footing in India. Even that one, in Plassey, was provided by Indians on a platter to Clive through what is Indian treachery. Indians therefore ‘gifted’ Bengal to the East India Company; it did not even have to fight for it. The missionary concept was not permitted by the Company until the early 1800s, but by that time Christianity had re-invented itself from a blood-thirsty religion into a religion that knew the only way to survive was to do good for others. The good that the Christian missionaries did to India cannot be under-estimated; many modern Indians came through these educational institutions.

Till 1857, most parts of India were independent kingdoms. Few Indians considered themselves part of a single ‘country’. They were Indians, but did not know where India began and where it ended. India was an amorphous concept. Kings made use of the British equally as the British took advantage of the situation. There was no true nationalism in India till the late 19th century.

Then, in 1893 one Indian wrote: “Sectarianism, bigotry, and its horrible descendant, fanaticism, have long possessed this beautiful earth. They have filled the earth with violence, drenched it often and often with human blood, destroyed civilization and sent whole nations to despair. Had it not been for these horrible demons, human society would be far more advanced than it is now. But their time is come; and I fervently hope that the bell that tolled this morning in honor of this convention may be the death-knell of all fanaticism, of all persecutions with the sword or with the pen, and of all uncharitable feelings between persons wending their way to the same goal.”

This man, who declared “the death-knell of all fanaticism” was Vivekananda, a person whom the RSS admires, but I admire far more. I also invite you to read the poem, “False Religion” by Tagore: http://www.liberalpartyofindia.sabhlokcity.com/communal/tagore.html

That is my view of what a good Hindu should think like. These are cosmopolitan Indians, preaching individual choice and freedom to choose their beliefs. If Vivekananda lived today, he may have considered joining the Freedom Team.

My underling suggestion is that we can study history and make our own deductions, but we cannot justify taking violent actions on the basis of our interpretations of history. That is why I raised the example of the demolition of Babri Masjid. I have discussed this issue of justice at length in my book. Justice is not intergenerational. It is individual. We cannot use the excuse of certain actions of some mad fanatics who are long dead and gone to justify our violent actions today. Let us demand justice in modern India. And justice is purely individual, not social.

2) Re: “I shall give you an account of my experiences with Muslim and Christian evangelists in Madhya Pradesh and Sikkim.”

Thanks for this information. I can understand your concern at conversions which are clearly voluntary and non-violent but appear to be misguided. I suggest two simple propositions:

a) There are many relatively disadvantaged groups within traditional Hindu society – people who were not allowed in the past to become educated because of their ‘caste’. Such people, including tribals who were seriously exploited by traders till recently, are fertile ground for conversion. Ambedkar’s himself was a case in point. The solution to this is to formally convert every Hindu into a Brahmin. Every Hindu should first be given a Brahmin caste title. Second, the caste system should be abolished. If you ensure that is done, then the incentive among large proportion of weaker Hindu groups to leave Hinduism could weaken. People are ultimately looking for respect and equality, no matter what brand of religion is offered to them.

b) My second proposition is that the concept of religion itself is going to weaken significantly in the future as science and education advance. A hundred years from now, it is quite likely that your progeny would have abandoned Hinduism as I have abandoned it. Religion is history. Its useful life is over. A preponderance of negative issues remain.

You have yourself citied some figures of UK abandoning religion. Similarly, the French churches now import priests from Africa since local people no longer spend time on such things. It is only a matter of time when Hinduism itself will HAVE to re-invent itself to meet the challenge of science and increasing human knowledge. A first step is to abandon the outdated caste system. Further, with good education (which the policies of the Freedom Team advocate), many people will stop spending time on religion in the future. People can change their religion in minutes. People can have 10 religions in a lifetime. Being converted today means nothing since they people will quickly un-convert as well. In other words, instead of worrying about conversions, why not worry about good policy and ensuring good education for all Indians?

3) Religion is a purely personal matter. It is OK for VHP to advocate issues such as the ones you have raised, but not for BJP which is a political party in a democratic republic. A political party must never involve itself in the personal choices of people. The struggle to create governments that are accountable to us has gone through the following stylised stages in mankind’s history:

• minimising the tyranny of autocrats;
• reducing the links between the church, or religion, and the state;
• disbanding the ‘divine right’ of kings;
• reducing inherited powers;
• creating parliaments with limited representation, noting that in the early stages of democratic representation, weaker sections of the society such as indigent white men, women, and blacks, were not represented;
• creating democracies with universal franchise, ie, when all adults are able to vote; and, finally,
• preventing democracies from degenerating into majority-rule mobocracies through a comprehensive network of checks and balances that is supported by the vigilance exercised by citizens.

You will notice that one of the EARLIEST principles a modern society has to agree to is to TOTALLY separate religion and the state.

You have two interests. On one of them, which is the greatness of India through greater freedom and world-best policy, you can consider joining the Freedom Team.

But I want a total break between religion and politics in India.

Freedom does not allow a government to dabble in religion. I have written strongly against the pseudo-secularism of the Nehruvian Congress in my book. The policies of the Freedom Team will make a complete break from pseudo-secularism.

On your other interest, such as Hindu religion, you can and should continue to progress and explore your interests through religious bodies such as VHP. You may also considering discussing your interests with my father who spends a lot of time on such things. (eg. http://www.sabhlokcity.com/metaphysics/ and http://picasaweb.google.com/anasuresh/PremSabhlokLecture). If you make all Hindus into Brahmins, and then help abolish the caste system, I may find your efforts in this space of interest, as well!

Regards
Sanjeev

Sanjeev,

Freedom is always “freedom”. It doesn’t have any ethics.
If your vision is a path for the future, please name it appropriately.

You laid the plan on a paper with big holes.

By the way to remind you, anyone talking about freedom, has no space for “Political correctness”
(Your last post shows your secularism and self-hatred)

Please forgive me if I am rude.

Sanjeev,

Fellow posters (for instance vck) has been constantly telling you about the falsified indian history. I would take your claims on Akbar and Bahadur Zafar being noble kings with a grain of salt. Shantanu has also blogged about it including his most recent post. You have brushed off these suggestions often. Your response to the decades old hindu-muslim conflict seems to be that “We cannot draw any worthwhile lessons today from the lives of primitive and ignorant people who are long dead and gone.” I will have to disagree. Nations are shaped by their past. As the recent post on Aurangzeb exhibit shows, history is very pertinent to todays India. What else could the reason be to close it down? It was only an historical exhibit. Not a movie, made to cause commotion. I would like to quote a line from the post – “The first is that no nation can move forward unless its children are taught to look squarely at their own history, the good and the bad, the evil and the pure.” I believe this is true. Europeans can discuss the world war and the old catholic conflicts. But can we indians discuss our babri masjid issue.

From your posts, it appears that you are an atheist. Personally, I am not a religious person either. But i do think it is relevant especially in India. India has been a deeply-religious country and I believe it will continue to do so. Especially, hinduism still survives inspite of the onslaught from christian missionaries and decades of islamic rule. I think India will continue to be the spiritual centre of the world. Finally, I think you are forgetting that hinduism is a way of life and not just a religion in India. Your posts seem to reflect a condescending view on religious people and I do not think this will be very helpful for a party in India.

Praada and Prakash: Thanks for joining the debate.

***

Sanjeev: Your comment above (Mar 9th) is as usual thought-provoking. I only have a time for a hurried response but let me make two important points where I feel we have divergent views.

1] The likelihood of religion playing a prominent role in public discourse (and politics) in India. You feel that religion will largely become irrelevant in the years to come. I think this is unlikely to happen at least over the mext 2-3 decades, considering the deep religiosity (not sure of that is the right word) that you see in Indian society. If you broadly agree, than we need to consider this factor while discussing the future of our political landscape.

2] The importance of history. You feel that history does not have any place in a modern society. My personal view is that we ignore history at our own peril. In this context, you may also want to see my comment on the Gautier exhibition post.

Thanks and look forward to continuing this dialogue.

Sanjeev,

The approach you have is totally undemocratic. I don’t think I need to explain you why it is. This can be skipped as it is made in the context of current situation.
Yes, Lok Satta lacks the leadership. Because this organisation was not started for promoting polity. The reason for me to refer to Lok Satta was that, why didn’t you see it as a Organisation which can work as a perfect complement to your Goals. It could have even lessened the burden of Lok Satta sidestepping from its original ethos when it wanted to enter to the polity.
To say really, by making a conglomerate of this kind of organisations, you can acheive far more than you have imagined, because you will have leadership at every level which is essential for effective governace.

I am looking for your vision of the economic model for the Indian society.

Absolutely engrossing and sumptuous discussions…thank you shantanu, sanjeev and all.(I find I had briefly put a small post but I guess the site went out of sight),

It is time all of us stand shoulder to shoulder and get India to the glory it once had. It is possible now, we have the resources. The economic growth will continue for a few decades. The only question is will we use this great opportunity to its maximum and deliver our full/maximum potential? (minimum programs wont help) and will the growth be all inclusive i.e. will the opportunity to grow be made available to all equally?

It was heartening to note Loksatta’s request for a new political culture posted here!! Two years back I was quite disturbed and wanted to contribute to a change in the country. I was clear that there needs to be a political solution. Anything less will be only incremental. I found loksatta’s views clearly reflecting mine in terms of what needs to be done.

It will be sad if we miss this moment. The answer is “good- governance” …nay “great governance” . As someone mentioned this will be a freedom moment. Please join in. Lets fight under one umbrella and provide a clear alternative to the people.

..A few quick points

– How to get good leaders in power and what to do after that was mentioned as one of the key points…totally agree…First leaders(who will participate in the political process) are simply not there, If anyone has a way of finding them please join in. Lets not wait till 1500..As soon as anyone is around and is prepared to join, join Loksatta. The only way is to contest elections and then implement. Loksatta has a clear action plan on reforms political(voteindia.org), urban governance(votemumbai.org), police/judicial reforms(votepolice.org). I find Sanjeev’s ideas pretty much similar…

– everyone wants to go ahead with his/her own party(I think Geeta mentioned this) – True – I am personally in touch with leadership of the new parties and convincing them to join with loksatta. Now Loksatta has a reasearched strategy as well as a standing of 10 years, is extremely well networked as well as lots of grey hairs to go with ..and responses are

party 1- no response
party 2- met a few times but still wants to go alone
party 3- We are ahead of our goals
party 4- We dont see any need for working together as of now.
party 5- no response

– funds?? – yes it is an issue. Loksatta is fast gaining popularity and the momentum is increasing exponentially. Now the funds crunch for next 3-4 years is visible if we need to grow at the rate which we can see we will. i am clear that in the 2013-14 elections we will deliver . Anyone willing to contribute/lead/participate in to the fund raising effort please contact me – sovani@yahoo.com

– Sanjeev – Time for joining in the loksatta movement. What you started may have been ahead of its time. But the time is ripe and I can see momentum gaining. My ardent appeal for you to join in whatever form you can. Can you put us in touch with Sharad Joshi?

– Geeta – Have a look at loksatta you will be amazed at its depth of thought as well as having practical implementable strategy.

visit loksatta.org, loksattamovement.org and the other sites mentioned earlier.

Jai hind

Dnyanesh Sovani
Volunter – Loksatta movement

Dear freedom fighters,

This has been a great intellectual debate. If we sieve, we learn that all of us are keen to see India in its pristine glory- the India:
WHERE the mind is without fear and the head is held high
Where knowledge is free…………………….
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake.
Again I pray let’s not create an India:
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments
By narrow domestic walls

If we deeply analyse, we find that Sanjeev’s Freedom team has a vision. and he rightly says let’s deflate our ego and unitedly stand for re-building India. It appears Sanjeev has done a lot of thinking and all other movements are also in the right direction. Let the ripe moment come and we shall decide. We have nothing to lose but only gain- gain freedom for India. We have only those people who have a strong faith in themselves and in the mission of freedom team. I shall request all the members to read the review of his book ‘Breaking Free of Nehru’ And all our discussions should rotate round that philosophy. There is complete freedom in his philosophy. Shantanu’s ideas are in perfect sync with the core philosophy of freedom team. Loksatta has a great philosophy but the problems have started creeping because of the leadership egos. Whereas Sanjeev’s freedom team has a vision, a strategy and a mission and more that that it has freedom to differ. Any one with the supreme goal in mind can go ahead. We are ready to follow. Even if it is Loksatta or any other organisation. Let’s all unitedly provide one platform for the freedom of India.

LK Kandpal

Dear Dyanesh

JP was instrumental in 2004 in encouraging SBP to go ahead with an premature ambition to contest elections (even though he would not join politics at that time). That led to wasted effort, and wasted some useful money.

The key therefore is strategic thinking and collaboration, not solo efforts that will lead to frustration.

I would suggest to JP to hold his horses, to organise more, to get hold of at least 1500 leaders, to gain agreement among all of them, train them, and to not take action (ie to not contest elections) until the effort is guaranteed to succeed. Only one yardstick of success must be considered: forming national government. JP can become an MP easily at any time, but Lok Satta can’t form government at this stage.

The Freedom Team has drafted an (initial) action plan at: http://www.freedom.sabhlokcity.com/action-plan.html
If you can do one thing for me, please do this: please ask JP to consider this plan and send his comments -either directly or through you.

Had things been done systematically in 2004, we would have been in a position to go national today, in 2008-09. My view is that if JP squanders his energy (and funds) in 2008-09, he will find that 5 years down the road there has been no progress to forming national government either; or he has collected people of no particular merit around himself.

In my view, no action should be launched which doesn’t directly help in forming national government.

I would suggest, more generally, that all people seriously interested in reform come together under the umbrella of the Freedom Team (it is a discussion group; has no ‘brand’ value, no ‘leaders’ and no ‘followers’), deliberate as equals, sort out issues, and then act in a focused and coordinated manner.

That will lead to national government in 5-10 years. Else it will mean that some individuals like JP may become MPs; even Ministers; but they won’t be able to make the changes that India needs – for which a dramatically enhanced effort is needed.

By the way, I don’t agree with finding “along the way solutions”. I think the task is too important to be left to random chance.

I’ll keep your requests in mind, though. There is merit in them.

Any idea how much a full page ad costs in the major newspapers in India? I am thinking of kickstarting the search for leaders through a major newspaper ad in all papers – where people like LokSatta can participate and contribute.

My key message: conserve money; use leverage of whatever little money is available. Do NOT act unless the plans are fully in place.

Regards
Sanjeev

Srinivas: Thanks for joining the debate…You are quite right that change will be hard to bring especially as the status quo benefits the incumbents and current set of politicians.

I also agree with you that an honest person cannot win elections under the present system – It appears to be an almost impossible task…

The rot lies deep..

You may also enjoy reading this post: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/14/fixing-the-system/

Dear Friends

I couldn’t help smiling to myself when I read Mr. Srinivas’s suggested remedy: “moratorium on elections say for some ten years and in the meanwhile governed by a committee of people who are known for their integrity and patriotism, are practical and idealist.” I must say that this is a novel suggestion! I’ve heard of army rule, dictatorship, etc., but not this one. Anything to over-ride the wishes of the people.

No, thanks! but I do not agree to any dictatorial solution. Nehru’s great contribution was democracy, and I would never advocate a moratorium of even one minute despite all its ills.

Second, VCK’s concept that ‘graduates’ are somehow a solution to the problem. Surely Nehru was a graduate and Manmohan Singh is a graduate. Also, both these were (are) good people. Most MPs in India now are graduates.

The problem is not just finding good people, but good people who know what to do, are knowledgeable in a very deep way, and understand India well. Most Indians simply don’t have the slightest clue about the extremely high calibre of ordinary politicians in the West. These are outstanding writers, thinkers, speakers, and impeccably honest. These people are a class well above what you find in India in almost any profession.

We may have some good writers but they are totally arrogant and conceited, and most have no ability at all work as a team. We may have brilliant scientists who cannot tolerate others who are as good as them. They are level 2 or level 3 leaders. That is not good enough. We need level 4 or level 5 leaders.

It is only in the higher reaches of the private sector that India has people of sufficient calibre – and even here only a very few who are sufficiently ’rounded’ to be acceptable.

The great challenge therefore is finding 1500 really good people – then building them up, and then offering them to the people of India. Not just graduates (of which we have tens of crores), not just good people (of which we have ninety crores), but OUTSTANDING leaders.

So the solution must be found exclusively within Indian democracy. The solution is to offer outstanding candidates in the elections Not once, but repeatedly, and to educate the people, until Indians agree as a whole to give these good people the mandate to run the government. The government can only be legitimate if it is build on the foundation of democracy.

Please therefore let us stick to this task of assembling 1500 outstanding leaders – and then give Indians a chance. Indeed, your so-called “committee of people who are known for their integrity and patriotism, are practical and idealist” – why don’t you find these people and send them to me? Where are these people? We’ll offer them to Indians in elections to vote for.

I simply don’t agree that an honest person cannot win elections under the present system. It is an eminently doable task – so why don’t we try? Why give up without trying? In order to give up you’ll have to show me tens of examples where 550 outstanding candidates were offered i elections and were rejected. That hasn’t happened even once. No one has even tried!

Why do we have this amazing habit of giving up before we try? Do you think success comes before even making an attempt? Or 10 attempts?

Regards
Sanjeev

Dear Sir,
I am surprised that we still accept the low down concept of the “Brilliant Politicians of the west”.
I thought this delusion was over with the British leaving India.
We know some of the “brilliant ones”. like Henry Kissinger who went all out to keep a war going on just to keep himself occupied.
Recently we have had the lapdog of the US, who was a PM of Britain who went to war when the cause for it was false. What a leader!! What capabilities!! OUTSTANDING!!!
We know about another who went along with his white bretheren to war inspite of the fact the cause of the war was false.
We also know about a Home Minister who arrested a doctor on false charges and even after eating “Crow” maintained his argment for his alter ego.
We know of President who went to war in the guise of prventing the spread of Commies over the world and ate so much of “Crow” that his country is still smarting at it.
We know about politicians of the west who helped business empires to be built on the graves of a lot underpriveleged in the “South Americas”.
We know about how the western politicain who sold the idea of a “BAD AND EVIL” Che and Fidel.
We know about the “GREAT POLITICIANS OF THE WEST” who have propped up people like Pinnochet, Marcos, Ayub Khan and others of his team and the list goes on.
I will stick to my “graduates” who atleast have a sense of a way of a life of a country, rather than “SUCH SMART A””s” of the west.
Oh! by the way I forgot, Recently a leader who was also a proffessor of an Ivy league also admitted ‘Only after the 9/11 we knew waht terrorism was like”.
Thank God my country has no such “LEADERS”.
Regards,
vck

Dear Srinivas: You have hit the nail on the head…Your thoughts echo what I wrote in my comment dt Feb 17th ’08 (above):

POLITICS is a FULL-TIME JOB, IT DOES NOT PAY, YOU CAN pretty much FORGET ABOUT YOUR FAMILY LIFE and you will very likely be LIVING UNDER the THREAT of physical harm – if you are upright and stick to your principles, that is…

THIS is what STOPS MOST GOOD, HONEST, UPRIGHT, CAPABLE AND PASSIONATE PEOPLE FROM JOINING POLITICS – and that is why the task of raising 1500 leaders is herculean – and will take time.

It may not be possible to discuss the strategy in public but if you ahve any ideas, please email me at jaiDOTdharma AT gmail.com or do join the Freedom Team’s discussion group…

Membership of the discussion group is voluntary and involves no obligation except willingness to discuss issues openly and honestly (I hope I am right here Sanjeev!)

I hope to see you there…or I hope to hear from you via email…

We cannot (must not) give up hope…

Dear VCK

I find we have diverged significantly from the core purpose of this dialogue – to ask questions about the Freedom Team of India. I’d suggest you carefully consider why you are raising these non-core issues, particularly because I am not claiming anywhere “all Indian is worthless and that all ‘Intellectuall thinking and mostly people of caliber are western leaders”. Please show me how and where I gave anyone that impression! I am merely asking good people who believe in the value of freedom and good policy to come together and to contest elections in India.

If you have an abhorrence towards Western leaders in general, I’d urge you to open your mind a little more and seek value from it where you can. There is good and bad everywhere. It should be our job to absorb the good wherever we find it.

Let us stick firmly to the Freedom Team on this section of Shantanu’s blog. My question to you is: forget all these other people. Are YOU the leader we want in India? Are you joining FTI or not? If not why not? If you are not joining for a good reason your reply can help influence the way FTI evolves. FTI should remain open to all constructive criticism.

Please visit its slightly updated website: http://www.freedom.sabhlokcity.com/

I look forward to your joining FTI and contesting elections. If you are not going to contest elections then please come back to discuss further when you are ready to do so.

Regards
Sanjeev

Dear Mr Srinivas

There is no doubt that freedom has not always been built on the foundation of non-violence. There is a long history of kings having been beheaded, civil wars, and other strategies to ensure that the interests of the people are defended against tyranny. In my second book (currently in draft) I explore the conditions under which a violent revolution to advance freedom can be justified.

The current situation in India does not, in my considered opinion, lead to a recommendation on for a violent response. It is only after good people have come together as a Freedom Team (Army?) and offered themselves as candidates in elections at least 5-10 times, and persuaded people to vote for them, but found themselves being repeatedly outwitted by gangsters and the corrupt, that violent revolts could be even remotely justified (and at that stage the strategy will need to be such that it is cogently argued, fully justified, and effectively managed to ensure the not one innocent life is lost).

As far as I know, political parties comprising purely of good candidates who are capable of (and willing to offer) good governance have not yet offered their services to the people at the hustings. Under such circumstances I would appreciate that non-democratic proposals are taken outside the discussion on this subject, and kept in cold storage until all possible democratic actions have been taken and found wanting.

Regards
Sanjeev

Dear VCK

Thanks for a detailed response. We can keep discussing generalities for ever, but the specifics is what matters in the end. The core principle of FTI is to apply the best practice in the world (India may have best practice in some things – and if so that would be adopted). It is also an intellectual war against complacency and cynicism.

I worked for long in India and know of outstanding young people – most of whom have disappeared into the field of professional jobs in India or gone abroad. Virtually none is able to think ‘cleanly’ ab initio since the severe contamination of Nehruvian socialism still blights their thinking. Your generalisations about the USA from its worst cases reported by the consumer-readership hungry media are a case in point. It is like saying that everyone in India is constantly killing each other in communal riots – well, that is the only certain coverage India gets abroad, apart from its periodic elections, and recently, about its economic growth. Is that a sensible view to have of India – only derived from media reports? The truth is so much richer and complex.

It is hard to see the truth when one has been told from childhood that the truth cannot exist outside India’s unique ‘special’ case, and when most journalists in India still come from a leftist perspective which delights in distorting the truth about the West. US is not a role model for India, but there is so much that is good in US (and elsewhere in the West) which India must aspire for.

Fortunately, the new young generation emerging right now is not so blighted by Nehru’s disastrously distorted vision of the world, by which communist USSR became a great friend and USA an enemy. These people are unfortunately so caught up in one of the outcomes of Nehruvian ideas, namely deeply embedded corruption, that they can’t even begin to understand that corruption should not be a normal part of life. These young people need intellectual leadership to guide them into aspiring for a society based on the values of freedom and integrity, which always go together, anyway. That is what FTI intends to provide.

I have not much choice in but to start with whomever I can get and persuade them to see the world afresh purely on scientific evidence and based on the logic of freedom. So I am sure that ideological differences that you have can be discussed and a reasonable agreement arrived at provided you are willing to put in serious effort to discuss based on facts and the truth. I am confident that there is, in the end, only one truth, so if you bring the truth to light through debate, then FTI will follow your leadership. But the first key condition is your ability and intention to contest elections, and total commitment to integrity.

Regards
Sanjeev

Thanks Patriot

Had a look. I’ve written to Pratap Bhanu suggesting he consider joining FTI.

In general, it is time to walk the talk. I’ve personally had enough of middle-class Indians preaching to our politicians to reform themselves. Why would any politician listen to them?

If these middle class Indians can’t themselves rise to provide India with the leadership they want it to have, then they should shut up. It is time for the great middle class of 300 million people in India to stop whining and demonstrate its ability to work together and to lead India. Who has stopped Pratap Bhanu from becoming an Obama? Not me!

RISE AND LEAD. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY INDIA WILL CHANGE.

Regards
Sanjeev

Dear Patriot

You rightly cite Plato whose ideal was the philosopher king. He said, “philosophers [must] become kings” (The Republic).

Gandhi was a philosopher, and Nehru too was one, in his own right. So also Rajaji, Radhakrishnan and the many great leaders of the freedom (independence, to be precise) movement.

The rightful place for philosophers is in politics. Even Bertrand Russell did his own Fabian society thing, Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson (and Paine, Burke, etc.) did their own Freedom thing, JS Mill did his job to promote freedom as an MP, and Marx did his Communism thing. Heidegger did his Fascism thing.

Politics is the only rightful place for philosophers to belong to, unless they are copycat teachers who teach, but do not truly ‘profess’. Philosophy must be a way of DOING things. A philosophy without a call for action does not deserve the right to be called a philosophy; it is pure impotence disguised in fine language.

Even otherwise, on a practical note, we should be able to find 1500 philosopher kings among the 1,130,001,500 people who flood India’s streets. The rest of the 1,300,000,000 “philosophers” (and by the way India hasn’t produced many truly great philosophers since 2500 BC despite these alarming numbers of them) can continue to squat on their haunches and stare impotently at the corruption and decadence they find around themselves; sporadically preach to the politicians who merely jeer at these idlers who preach to them!

In 1982 when I joined the IAS, we were taken to Indira Gandhi’s house for a ‘call on the PM’ visit. She spoke with us and in response to one question from a fellow ‘probationer’ about why politics is so dirty in India, she said: something like: “you only get the right to ask that question if you enter politics; no one has stopped you from entering politics and fixing the problem”. It was a challenge she threw at everyone. No one took it. Meekly we went about being IAS officers, working under these hopelessly corrupt ‘leaders’.

For 60 years, idle journalists and others (“philosophers?”) have chattered idly for the sake of their livelihoods; they don’t have the courage of their convictions; they therefore lose their credibility. I’m not asking these people to prove their credentials by jumping into electoral politics on their own. I’m asking them to come together and work on a common platform. They won’t even do that!!

Philosophers! What gall to use that title for their pitiable whimperings.

Regards
Sanjeev

Sanjeev – Been quite tied up lately., i have gone thru your suggestions and most of these are similar to what loksatta advocates. It will take a while for a detailed reply…..but will surely take that up at a later time. the key now is how to implement these?

Unequivocally what India needs today is DOERS. There is adequate reports/thoughts on what needs to be done, how it needs to be done… All of that may not be ideal but getting it done what is required to be done is the most inportant task ahead of us right now. Sanjeev is also right again – there is a serious dearth of leaders in social/public life.

This is not to say thought provokers are not required, but just that there are plenty of them and action plans are available for the next decade.

Now the question is how? And again in the current system the only solution is contest elections and get into a position to do implent.

Loks satta movement after advocating successfully for governance reforms, realised the limitations and has formed a political party in 2006. 2008/9 elections will be contested in Andhra and the next elections all india.

This is an ardent appeal to all to please suggest and spread the word to join in the movement to provide a credible alternative to people.

Sanjeev- If the freedom team has anyone from Andhra, this is a word for them to contact loksatta movement fpr [articipating in the forthcoming elections.

please visit –

http://www.voteindia.org
http://www.votemumbai.org
http://www.votehyderabad.org
http://www.votepolice.org
http://www.loksatta.org
http://www.combatcorruptionindia.org
http://www.loksattamovement.org

Jai Hind
Dnyanesh Sovani
Volunteer Lok satta movement

All: Some excellent points here…Thanks for continuing the debate/discussion.

I will have a look at all the comments and try and respond in a day or two.

*** COMMENT COMBINED ***

1. I fully support the thoughts here.
2. We, (the people who want to help India), must have a struggle on the lines of the INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT .
3. Just like Gandhiji (M. K. Gandhi – the Father of the Nation) exemplified THE POWER OF ONE , we need just ONE INDOMITABLE WILL who will fear nothing, and who will lead by example.
4. If you are that ONE INDOMITABLE WILL, just take up your stick and lead, and millions will follow you.
5. The country and all its people are sick of this bunch of rascals who are looting our country.
6. What we need is just ONE INDOMITABLE WILL to lead us.
Who will be the next Gandhiji or Jayaprakash Narain.
I am sorry that I do not have that much strength of will or character to be the person for this. But amongst our 1 1/2 billion people, will there not be one ?
OR, should we look to the heavens for our saviour ?
Krishnan

P.S. : What happened to the political party floated by IITians ? Surely they are the people who would be right for organizing the details.

***

One more point strikes me :
The peoples of the Southern states of India and those of the North-Eastern states of India are equally part of the nation, and equally patriotic and equally capable of participating in this oncoming struggle. The present mindset routinely excludes these peoples from the concept of India.

This present mindset has to change. The fact of a common nationality has to be recognized in everyday actions and plans and projects. If not done, we are not only reducing our strengths, but we are increasing our weaknesses.
Krishnan

Dear Sajeev Sabhlok and all others,
Greetings! I”ve some frustrating news! I am Cdr. (Retd) BB Khilari from Bangalore, who has contested the Assembly elections from Lok Paritran and awaiting results on 25 May 08.

*** COMMENT EDITED / Note by Moderator ***

Dear Cdr Khilari: Thanks for your comment. I have edited it since it is a copy of your earlier comment

Please avoid duplicate comments.

I would also suggest you have a look at the Freedom Team website and/or get in touch with Sanjeev.

Dear VCK

I apologise for not paying sufficient attention to your comments. I unfortunately can’t locate the Bangadesh comment from you so please send me a link. But I’ve traced your last comment (of 10 April) which says, “If it is not a street fight but a genuine feeling on GROWING INDIA, I am willing to play my part.”

We are talking of FTI offering high quality leaders as a choice to Indian voters in elections. The answer therefore hinges on one and only one question: do you provide high quality leadership to India? In other words, are you committed not only to the philosophy of freedom and to world-best policy, but are you also committed to continuous self-development as a leader?

None of us is perfect and will never become perfect, but we can all try to incrementally improve ourselves. That journey of growing oneself both in knowledge and leadership must occur first before we can claim to grow India. This also includes the ability to work respectfully in a team environment.

I think FTI is throwing a challenge at educated Indians: are you up to it? Can you do it? It is not about anyone dictating to India, but about us persuading India, democratically. That takes a LOT of leadership, and a lot of humility.

I belive you can do it. I think you should do it. Each of us can be a leader. Indeed, we must lead, else the corrupt mafia of existing political parties will repeatedly win, without a contest.

I trust this addresses your question. As mentioned, I can’t locate the Bangladesh comment (but if that is a policy comment, its place is perhaps not here but elsewhere, for here we are only discussing FTI).

Regards
Sanjeev

A Google Group called, ” FTI Inquiries Questions Suggestions”
has been started to answer any further questions/ queries about FTI: http://groups.google.com/group/fti-inquiries-questions-suggestions

Regards
Sanjeev

Ranjan: What is the point of getting into a battle unprepared?…there is no glory in suicide…

FTI members will contest elections when they are ready – not becuase they happen only once every five years…Besides there are other elections one can contest..(MLAs etc) and in these times, five years may be optimistic!

*** COMMENT EDITED ***

Introductions :
The FTI team members must recognised that we are trying to build an institution, hence the need for slow and measured steps.

*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

As Sanjeev has mentioned, this is a copy-paste from FTI’s website. In such instances, kindly only quote relevant portions or simply provide a URL. Thanks.

Dear Ashish
Here’s an extract from the email response I provided you a few days ago. This is for the public record.
=======
Dear Ashish

btw do read my book at http://bfn.sabhlokcity.com/ and also subscribe to Shantanu’s blog at https://satyameva-jayate.org/).

Note that the views I express are purely my views and not FTI’s. FTI’s views will only be finalised in due course (see FTI strategy)

1) Religious freedom
The view you express is ‘secular’ in the French Revolution sense (e.g. Jacobians), and possibly goes beyond that. You advocate (a) “actively curbing religions” and (b) “preventing the many wrongs that are committed in their name”.

With regard to (a), religion is a purely private matter and the free society doesn’t and can’t curb anyone’s private activities. It is illiberal to impose on people’s private lives and beliefs. FTI advocates freedom and not Hegelian statism that led to Marxism and the abolition of the Church in the USSR. To live and let live is the motto. We don’t want to impose on anyone. Merely punish people if they cause harm.

With regard to (b), the liberal state strongly punishes those who harm others. Prevention, however, is NOT generally the business of the state, except in rare cases. I can’t always prevent people from committing a murder but I can punish them.

2. Level of freedom
“I also don’t think that the country is mature enough to be offered absolute freedom”.

A detailed response to this issue is provided in Chapter 4 of my draft manuscript (proposition 3, I think) http://discovery.sabhlokcity.com/. In brief, FTI does not advocate absolute freedom, but freedom with accountability.

The overall model that these responses fit under is called classical liberalism. Read my draft manuscript and you’ll find a large number of references for further reading.

Look forward to your joining FTI after you’ve satisfied yourself about the reasonableness of these views

Thanks for your response Sanjeev. I am copying my response that I posted erroneously posted on http://freedomteam.in/blog/content/religious-freedom-and-tolerance.

I will briefly clarify my position on the religious freedom and hopefully clear a few confusions.

I still maintain that it’s not enough to simply disassociate the state from religions and that religions should be actively curbed in order to protect our freedoms in all aspects of our lives.

I make a clear distinction between individual belief and organized religion and when I use the term “religion”, I use it entirely to mean organized religion.

Belief is purely a private matter and everyone should be entitled to believe in whatever they want to believe in. For me, PRIVATE is a keyword here. Every individual should also have the right to freedom of association (organized religion in this case). I do not advocate curbing individual thought/belief or an individual’s right to association. What I advocate, however, is curbing the freedom these associations should have in a liberal society.

I strongly believe that such mass delusions should not be allowed to dictate our social, cultural and political lives, demand subsidies, reservations and so on. Aggression on freedom of speech (Taslima Nasreen, M F Hussain, Danish cartoons etc), on healthcare and scientific developments (opposition to contraception, stem cell research), on cultural (mangalore attacks, V-day attacks etc), and socio-economic freedoms (caste system) among many other aggressions should actively be curbed in a free and liberal nation.

I hope the above helps explain my position a bit further and that it’ll find some takers.

Regards
AD

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“I strongly believe that the government must protect, among other freedoms, the freedom of the most impressionable minds.”
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Ashish, and on what basis will you decide that a mind is “most impressionable”? Are there any tests out there, or quantifiable parameters? Will this test be given to all people in India? How about the bureaucracy that will entail? How will you trust the person or people who are given that responsibility to discern an “impressionable” mind from a “non-impressionable” mind? What if a mistake is made?

Look, hindsight is 20-20. We all are “impressionable” as we act based on what we currently know and believe, and based on self-reflection, we can take corrective measures or make adjustments as we go forward. But I doubt that we can reach a stage where we can say, “OK, I’m not impressionable at all.”

Aren’t you impressionable? After all, very likely, reading Rand left a strong impression on you and your words reflect that.

How far we are from our goal of 1500 leaders that we want before we are ready to contest the election?

Regards,
NAV