On Jeans, Indian Men and “Indecent Behaviour”
I stumbled across this news-story Jeans for boys, seminary tells women students a few days back and it immediately struck a chord.
The report mentioned (emphasis mine):
A mufti of the seminary (Darul Uloom), Ahshan Quereshi, told The Telegraph over the phone that women should not behave in a way that attracts undesirable male attention.
Most of you would know that Darul Uloom is the “spiritual” home of Taliban. However, thoughts and views like these are hardly unique to Darul Uloom.
A few weeks earlier, I had come across this quote and comment (edited for typos and brevity) on an internet forum focused on issues related to Hinduism.
QUOTE (emphasis mine):
“…if they want respect and not to be treated as a ” piece of meat, sex toy etc.” they need to exhibit modesty in their dress and behaviour in public.“
To which a forum member Jit Majumder, responded:
“What is the proof or definition of modesty and dignified behaviour? How then is our thinking different from the Talibans or Wahabis who want to cover up their women head to toe in black or grey burkhas, because they see their women as all ****** (aurat)?
Modesty and dignity is by attitude. how you carry yourself, how you present yourself.
You can appear to be a slut in a sari or salwar, if your wear it and carry it in a particular way.
On the other hand, you can wear a suit-skirt, or a bikini while on the beach, or a pair of shorts while jogging in the park or in the gym, or jeans and tank tops while going for a movie or going dancing.
But whether men will think of and look at that lady as any else other than just a lady, will depend on how that lady carries herself and what attitude she emanates.
In India men had always this excuse that if a woman dresses in anything other than a saree or a salwar, she has given men the right to ogle at her and think of taking liberties with her, and that she is “inviting” it.
Even rape victims are asked question with such implications in court!
This has been one of the most shameful aspect of the Indian society and one of the most contemptible, and shameful failure of Indian men in general!!
Would anyone ask MEN to prove their modesty by demanding that they only wear dhotis and kurtas, or formal shirts and full pants ALL the time and at ALL places and occasions?
After reading this, it occurred to me that this discussion was almost exclusively being carried out from a male point of view and there was neither any visible input nor any obvious attempt to get a woman’s perspective in all this debate.
So I decided to send out a few emails to some of my acquaintances specifically asking them what they – as women who probably suffer through this most days – think about this whole issue of “dress code” and unwanted male attention.
But first, I asked my wife. She had a typically crisp response: “Is it OK to rob a guy driving around in a Ferrari – because he is clearly “asking for it”?
That hit the nail on its head. Should not people (especially women) have the same expectations of civilised social behaviour regardless of what they are wearing/doing?
Next is a snapshot of comments I received in response to my email.
They offer an unusual and fascinating insight into this issue (emphasis added by me).
***
Nita wrote:
I do not agree with (the) term slut etc.
I would respect a prostitute too. She has human rights too, frankly no one has a right to decide what ‘attitude’ a woman has.
Every man will have a different idea on what a good attitude is and even women will differ in their views.”
***
“An only mouse” wrote
“There is a saying in North India: khaiye apne man ka, peheniye doosron ke man ka. The feminist sisterhood would be very cross if we did this though…
The weird view expressed here (in the quote) is not an uncommon view in India. This
is also however an equally commonly held view in the west. So where does this leave us?In a very bad place and an unsafe one for women.
Some may argue that women are free to wear what they want. But ask a random sample and they do not relish the prospect of being stared at.
We cannot make men stop staring at us. We can only control what we do
So we dress modestly. Still some men stare. They stare at our clothes, our faces (if you are non-white, try walking down the street in lily-white town European town and tell me if you do not feel like a piece of meat!), our bags and us in general.
What is the next step? A burqa?
Did someone tell this man that Victoria’s Secret’s largest market outside the US is the Middle East? – that bastion of ‘modestly covered’ sati-savitri women (or whatever equivalent in Islamic culture there might be!)! Modesty indeed.
What would Buddha do, if he were a woman?
She would probably not care and dress how she pleased. She would also learn some karate for use on the off-chance, drink moderately, remain in control of her senses and make sure of her own safety.
Above all, she would remind any staring men that their mothers have the exact same bodies as the women they are staring at, so it may be safer to go home and ogle at her. Tut tut.
many of my indian women friends are now in their 30s and having lived in the US/ UK for 10-12 years beginning to wear clothes that do not look like sacks, wearing colours (ironically in countries where colours are not common) and using makeup.
We feel fewer men stare in the West than in India…what a shame.”
She also suggested this link.
***
Pragya wrote:
“I would agree somewhat with the quote.
1. I don’t think the comment says women should only wear saris and salwars to prove their modesty
2. I think there is a need to exhibit modesty in dressing/ behaviour in public for everyone – men included. However, this definition cannot be generalized by saying that always wear sari/dhoti.. No one can go swimming in a salwar suit or trekking in a sari.. but a woman wearing a bikini/bikini like dress while making a business presentation would probably be taken as not so modest behaviour because of the simple reason that it would draw too much of unnecessary attention.. in much the same way as a man in boxer shorts making a corporate presentation
3. I also don’t see any “sickness” if a father, a brother or a husband asking a woman not to wear a certain dress on an occasion, just because it is too revealing, for it comes as a natural instinct to protect his loved one from a potential physical abuse..(after all there are all kinds on people in the society)
4. Clothes by definition are used for protection … And are worn to enhance our personality”
5. I don’t know if you remember an old saying which loosely translates in English as “Eat what you like, wear what other’s like”
Pragya also mentioned: “Please don’t generalize this to Indian men”.
***
Madhavi wrote:
“Isn’t it interesting how men still think of women and their attire even in this day and age? Or shall I say especially in this day and age!
The quote was about the fact that women need to exhibit modesty in their dress and behaviour in public so that they are not treated as a piece of meat or as a sex object.
It is true that when a woman exhibits herself to be on display, it doesn’t really matter whether she is clad in a burqua or in a mini skirt. Her behaviour is something that reflects what she wants at that point of time. But it is also equally true that when a woman wears a “revealing” outfit, she is automatically classed as “looking for it”.
And to be honest, apart from the men, women themselves seem to do this sort of thing for other women. This is a very poor reflection of our times when we say that we have “evolved” beyond all these aspects of behaviour. We really haven’t.
I quite agree that a lady should be able to carry off whatever attire she decides to wear. If she is uncomfortable in a Sari, it shows. IMHO the Sari is also quite a “revealing” outfit too!
If she can carry it off, a woman can practically wear any dress she wants. Of course, certain occasions warrant a dress code , one wouldn’t think of entering a business meeting in a swimsuit, for example, (unless you are auditioning for the post of the swimsuit model for the cover page of a swimsuit magazine!) and most women are aware of these niceties.
Personally, I feel that it doesn’t really matter what dress the woman wears, or how she behaves even! If the man in question has lust on his mind, he will even rape an 80 year old grandmother. Incidents like this have happened, and this just goes to show how repressed the men are. I have caught men staring at my breasts when I am wearing a salwar suit which covers “everything”. And this is the truth of the thing.
The disease is not in the dress-wearer, it is within the person viewing the dress-wearer.“
***
I would sincerely like to thank Nita, “An only mouse”, Pragya and Madhavi for writing in with their thoughts and would like to open this discussion to readers of this blog.
Please share your views – whether from a man or a woman’s perspective – but also from the eyes of a concerned parent, a concerned spouse and a concerned sibling.
I am looking forward to everyone’s thoughts – please be aware that I now have a comment moderation policy in place but I will strive and clear all comments within 12 hours max.
Thanks.
P.S. Here is the “Must Look” Link for the day.
P.P.S. Unexpected Find of the Day: “Too hot for takeoff” and finally, an excellent post by Nita: “Some men have regressive attitudes towards women, but these can be changed“.
There is hope yet.
Denim Jeans Image courtesy: Wikipedia
Hi Shantanu! Interesting topic. I quite liked your wife’s comment…very apt and to the point.
Unfortunately, in societies where women have a lower status, she is blamed for everything, including a man’s lewd behavior. For example if Indian cultural values are seen to be falling, immediately fingers are pointed at women. In molestation and rape cases, the first instinct is to blame women.
At the same time, one must mention that it seems to be a human tendency to blame victims. When Adnan Patrawala was killed, everyone was talking about how the freedom given to him by his parents was a factor in his death. Recently in the case of the murder of a young man at a lonely place at Bandstand, not only was the victim’s girlfriend blamed (by the victim’s relatives) but also the fact that the couple went to such an isolated spot in the first place.
Actually whenever any crime takes place, people get anxious and want to find reasons as to why such a thing had happened, and why it can never happen to them. Thus the blame game starts.
The fact is that there are criminals and bad elements in every society and it is only the strict rule of law and fear of punishment that can keep them under control. Well, to some extent.
Dear Shantanu
Voltaire’s comments on this subject are worth recalling:
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/voltaire/volnaked.html “It is probable that the human species lived long without being clothed.”
Our dress, like the food we eat, is a combination of our upbringing and our environment. As a civil servant in India I did not wear a suit to work. Out here I wear a suit daily to work to avoid being an outlier in meetings where senior officers are always smartly attired.
And yet, in this same environment, where men wear formal suits the whole day, in men’s change rooms in swimming pools, the men completely undress and wander around. It is part of the culture here.
Dress sense is the strangest thing.
In the end, I agree with you and many of your cited writers that everyone should be free to make their choices. While I’d encourage my young daughter to wear modest clothes, once she is an adult, she must take responsibility for what’s best for her.
Men staring at women is quite different from rape, though.
I don’t know what the mufti cited by you was implying by his comments. However, rape doesn’t occur so much in the West in public places like the beaches where women dress scantily but largely by people who are known to the woman, and often in the confines of rooms such as in universities, where the woman has gone voluntaraily.
Also, we know that ‘properly’ dressed women in Pakistan villages are frequently getting gang raped. Their dress does not protect them. Clearly, rape is a criminal offence and has nothing to do with what a woman wears.
A mufti in Australia who made similar (but stronger) comments was booted out by the muslim community here.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
Regards
Sanjeev Sabhlok
I was intersted in the messages posted regarding eve teasing in Bharat – it is only the tip of the ice berg as Western feminist ideology is carted to Bharat via all means possible.
The whole question of female dress and what is/is not appropriate to wear in public and whether that has any impact on Indian men’s expression of their sexuality /desires is an intersting one and worth debate.
Do we really need an ” International Women’s Day ” in Bharat in order to celebrate our unique contribution to mankind /to higlight opprerssion of our women?
Any modern effort to empower Indian women has to be accompanied by an equal effort to enlighten Indian men as to the Indian way of viewing women and to support them also in recognizing their true strengths
Hi,
I’ve been researching on this for weeks now !:)
First, what Nita said in the first comment to this post is absolutely right and has been confirmed by social science findings….women are the first ones to blame other women as “Asking for it” because they want a sense of security that it will not happen to them, hence they blame the victim…
The other thing
” I also don’t see any “sickness” if a father, a brother or a husband asking a woman not to wear a certain dress on an occasion, just because it is too revealing, for it comes as a natural instinct to protect his loved one from a potential physical abuse..(after all there are all kinds on people in the society)”
Yes in a sense it is not sickness because the parents simply want to protect their daughters. But I say the “sickness” factor is there in the attitude because no one educates men or boys that it is WRONG to stare and WRONGER to comment / touch… In that sense yes it is repressing. As long as your daughter is not letting parts of her body hang out or something, I don;t see how we can or should impose any restrictions on dress sense , simply because it is too relative and we should understand this soon. If someone stares, confront them then and there and ask them why they are staring and what they are staring at and who gave them the right to do so.
Again, what should be emphasized is carrying oneself, which is sadly not enough emphasized in India, because parents are simply too occupied in policing dress sense.
It is the behavior which determines the “Asking for it” part, NOT the dress sense.
🙂
Riddhi: Thanks for your comment…I would be very keen to hear more about your research…
Would you mind sharing it with me and other readers of this blog?
Thanks.
By the way, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:
I don;t see how we can or should impose any restrictions on dress sense , simply because it is too relative and we should understand this soon.
*** COMMENT EDITED by MODERATOR ***
in the case of sexual activity men seems more aggressive. because of their social status .and musil power.
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
Godwin: Pl. stick to the topic… I have edited your comment because it was largely off-topic and had some pretty strong views (and language) which were not supported by ANY evidence.
everyone has right to wear s their taste. not botherig about staring. let it be done doesnt take as a matter
It’s not just in ‘developing societies’ … even in USA, a football player molested a journalist at a game and it was justified as “she was asking for it?”.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/NFL-analyst-Brian-Baldinger-says-Ines-Sainz-was-?urn=nfl-270312
Even ridiculous is the media and papers analyzing if she was REALLY asking for it. Oh MY!!!
It’s really shocking that someone doesn’t have the guts to men to shut it. And also amusing, the only time men agree with each other without much ego is when it involves something against a woman.
While being mindful of salivating men, women have every responsibility to take care of themselves. At the end, it’s the personal safety that’s paramount … (I feel)
the whole question is being looked at with the assumption that men are unable to stop “ogling”.
i want to question that concept. why should it be a woman’s fault if the men ogle? sure, most men will take a second look when they see an attractive or distinctive woman. however, it’s the lecherous stare and associated actions that are reprihensible. and for those actions, men should take responsibility, not women.
otherwise, men are only as good as rutting animals. our instincts should be tempered by considerations of social norms & propriety and we men should start taking responsibility for our own actions instead of blaming the woman as the first man -adam- did.
Interesting topic @ Shantanu. As to what constitutes appropriate dressing for mnn and women is a difficult question to answer as there is no universal standard for propriety. Human attitude towards arousal of basic insticts differ from society to society. In Saudi, the muttawali would cane women if their burka exposed any flesh above their ankles. Sounds extreme? analyse this from their point of view where a Saudi male, from the time of his birth has only known about the female form from the hushed whispers of his peers and a woman is something that he has only seen packaged in black. By our standards, this is a reprehensible curtailment of rights. Lets take the other end of the pendulum’s swing. In Bastar, as recent as fifty or sixty years back, the tribals were topless (men and women), I am not sure whether the same is still the case. There a male child sees the exposed torso of the female anatomy from the time he is born, and grows up seeing it in the same condition. That part of the anatomy which maybe tittilating to the city dweller is no more than packaged baby food for him. This tolerance and being unaffected by such exposure is also reprehensible to us city dwellers who find the tribals lacking in morality and appropriateness. Appropriate dressing habits is indeed dictated by latitude and longitude and speaking for myself it must be the Contemporary Standards of Social Mores and precepts of proper behaviour and dressing existing in a society which must govern the sense of dressing of its people. However, when someone deviates from the said norm, the way of the muttawali and the saffron brigade is totally unacceptable (again speaking for myself). The law of the land must be respected and the same cannot be hijacked by vigilantes however well meaning they maybe. Instead subtle peer pressure within the household maybe a better idea.
1. There are many stations between the two extremes of a “slutty dress” and a burqa. Presenting only these two options is a case of false dichotomy and only muddles the issue.
2. I think there may be biological differences in what arouses a male vs. what arouses a female. This is not to be seen as an excuse for raping a woman who was dressed a certain way, but one cannot ignore this factor either when safety is concerned. I have a feeling that this reason is disliked by many, feminists in general, as it goes against their thesis of (competitive) equality of both genders at the cost of being blind to certain innate differences.
3. Modest (appropriate) dress applies to – or should – to both men and women. As someone pointed out in the comment, men wearing low-riding jeans while exposing their butts is not tasteful either. It’s a whole another matter what wearing tight jeans in Indian weather does for one’s comfort as well as to a man’s sperms.
4. Context matters. Women and men wearing bikinis/tight shorts on a beach are not likely to result in arousal of the opposite sex, whereas if you have the same person in the same attire walking down the streets of downtown or arriving in a board meeting on a Monday morning, it will draw attention and can result in a totally different reaction.
The Goal of life is self-realisation as per dharma. and it is mentioned in Mahabharat
aahar nidra bhaya maithunam cha
samanam yetad pashubhir naranam
dharmo hitesham adhiko vishesho
dharmena heen pashubhir naranam
The primary activities of the body like eating, sleeping, mating and defending are common within humans as well as animals. However, there is one difference between humans and animals and that is DHARMA. But if humans, who have got higher intelligence, neglect dharma and indulge in these 4 common activities then there is no difference between them and animals.
So, as per dharmic texts, the conduct of humans should be in accordance with what the Vedic scriptures enunciate. When we do not tread the path of dharma(or strive for it) we tend to spend our intelligence and time in discussing topics of eating, mating, sleeping and defending(and dressing). We remain on bodily platform and because we have higher intelligence it has to be used somewhere, we use it in these bodily activities and more and more perverse in carrying them out. This is evident in our society today.
This is not my opinion. but this is what the Vedic scriptures tell us.
There is a greater need for us to discuss more of DHARMA. That which can give us solutions to problems of life.
I humbly beg you to forgive me if I have disappointed anyone since I have no intentions of sermonizing.
A typical dress code today is usually defined in terms of what is appropriate to wear for the event. To some extent, this is due to the fact that older designations of clothing types are no longer as rigid as they once were. What would be considered formal to one person may appear to be semi-formal to someone else. What would be considered vulgar to one may appear decent to another. What would be revealing to one could be absolutely normal for another. Therefore, to define a code of dressing in terms of decency, vulgarity is purely of personal choice and preference. However, social norms have dictated certain parameters and I suppose abiding by those standards would be the best code of dressing conduct that should be adhered to.
sample this. http://is.gd/fJNjV what were men’s eyes upto back then? why the change now
i completely agree with Pragya’s view that,
“Clothes by definition are used for protection … And are worn to enhance our personality”
The kind of dressing or even behaviour by women cannot be accepted as a justification for a man’s misconduct;
although, women should understand that there’s nothing like perfect control over mind, and, they may be adviced to exercise some modesty, not for a certificate of her attitude, but by self will..
nothing in excess, neither revelation, nor advice..
Dial D For Denims:
Muzaffarnagar girls are standing up for their jeans and cellphones
by Sheela Reddy.
Worth a read.
Oh mann!
J.E.A.N.S.!
New directives for the faithful “secular” community:
http://www.zeenews.com/news676150.html
... leading Islamic seminary Darul Uloom Deoband has said that wearing jeans or other tight-fitting clothes is not appropriate as per religious beliefs.If dress length could have been scale to measure moral of the society then our ancestors would have been most uncivilised race and mostly rapist as they did not have enough to cover them fully. As we evolved we developed clothes to cover our body but little to cover our moral value/soul. Dress length has little to do with rape or assaults on the women otherwise we would not have seen dresses women use in developed countries.
I think problem lies in overall development of a society and how each and every sectors/stages are interconnected. A society need to have a balance approach on materialistic as well as spiritual. If it cannot focus or does not have ability to work on spiritual development, people becoming good voluntarily, it should have strong laws and swift implementation of laws to make people learn from their mistakes. Society has to develop as whole; if a sector of the society grows faster then it will draw attention from other part and may be valuable as well. Citizen may be vulnerable and may need protection if they over take society.
In a good society, everyone should be free to choose what they want to wear and how they want to live without spoiling fabric of the society. But individual need to be wise enough to make rational choices according to the society they are living in. As a bride laden with golden jewellery will not go to a neighbourhood which has high crime rate so she should also consider her choice when selecting a dress according to occasion and surrounding. This will protect herself from being hurt. I liked your wife’s comment but can we forget that carrying a costly car in bad neighbourhood could be dangerous.
As an integral part of a society one should behave which is best fit for that .As we say
“When in Rome, do as the Romans doâ€
An odd man/woman out will attract other’s attention and few may be bad.
I remember when I had visited Egypt with my wife. My local tour guide had advised not to wear sleeveless dress and skirt, which may expose one. Later in the day when we were roaming in Cairo, saw and felt how few people were ogling on woman tourists especially from western countries. My personal thoughts were, for few of them women are just like commodity and are born to sleep with them or raise their children.
Mandate is to be safe and enjoy life. If I am walking in a street full of dogs, my first priority would be keep myself safe rather teaching those dogs morality. But yes, later I will work to make that street safe. It is our responsibility to take care of ourselves and our belonging. We buy insurance for valuable things we have and premium varies from location to location based on crime rate in that particular area. Just think your dress as your insurance premium. Both give protection and safety but vary from location to location. So till our society is safe for some kind of gesture or dressing one needs to take precaution and live to enjoy later.
Somewhere i read some statistics which said, majority of women raped were most appropriately dressed.
So i dont think rape has a connection with the attire.
but it is true, attire should be appropriate to the place time and society, and it is the society that must decide that.
just like a veil will be most inappropriate in a business meeting, it may quite be needed when a woman is visiting her fathers village home.
similary for men, they may be expected to wear a dhoti for rituals, but for formal trousers for meetings.
if a business executive is constantly appearing dressed in jeans for buisness meetings, he may get christened as non serious hippy, and woman who is flaunting her body parts in business meetings a ……
but if she would wear a shear dress in her bed room it may be perfectly fine.
but this subtle sense is there in society. no one other than society can decide this. those who dont confer with the majority will be called names.
if some believe america is liberal, then ask americans if they would like a bride dress in a bikini for a marriage function. i am sure they will expect the traditional marriage gown adn nothing less.
Placing this link here for the record:
Promiscuous character of woman can’t be ground of defence for rapist: SC, by Niticentral Staff, May 17, 2013:
Saying even a female of easy virtue has a right to life, the Supreme Court on Friday ruled promiscuous character of a woman is irrelevant in rape cases and a rapist cannot take it as ground of defence for his gruesome act.