“Mob attack on Indians” – comments from DC

As a sequel to my earlier post, here are extracts from (selected) comments on this issue from the DesiCritics site

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#5
Klaus
August 21, 2007

They are Asylum Seekers and fled India and now India is caring ?

Isnt’t that strange?

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#8
B Shantanu
August 22, 2007

@ Klaus:

Asylum seekers? I would be interested to see the source of your information.

Rather than being a country from where people flee for asylum , India is actually an attractive destination for a lot of asylum-seekers

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#14
Chandra
August 22, 2007

Our Media has many important things to report

– How Victoria No 203 was born again? (Rediff)
– Q&A: ‘Do couples gain weight after marriage?’ (rediff)
– In Pics: Teen’y’-Weenies take the ramp for Miss USA (IBN)
– Hyd engineering students caught in sleazy MMS act (IBN with the actual video

 

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#15
Atlantean

August 22, 2007

I leave to you Indians the task of pondering why your own media do not care about Indians attacked overseas…

Part of it may have to do with religion.

Remember Mohammad Haneef? I dont know the religious profile of the Indians attacked in Germany but it is very clear what kind of cases get more attention from the Indian media and what kind of cases dont.

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#16
Atlantean

August 22, 2007

If that was a bunch of Muslims going to the mosque or just moving around, it would’ve got immense media attention. But its not surprising – these days the media has real problems recognising non-Muslims are humans and equal citizens.

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#17
Ruvy in Jerusalem
August 22, 2007

Maybe the Indian media is asleep on the job in reporting on the neo-Nazis in Germany, but the Jews in Germany are not asleep. Of course if they were truly awake, they would leave for Israel, but that is too much to expect from Jews who think that Berlin is better than Jerusalem, no matter how many millions of Jews die at the hands of German racists.

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#18
B Shantanu

August 22, 2007

Atlantean (#15): From the name(s) reported in the press, they appear to me to be Hindus from Punjab.

smallsquirrel, Deepti and Ruvy: Thanks for your comments.

Chandra (#14): Great comment…and a sad but true reflection of the state of affairs.

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#19
@Menokki
August 23, 2007

I say words with words and deeds with deeds. The Indians should fight back. Hurt a few Germans in Germany or India. That is the only way they will learn. There is no room anymore for turning the other cheek or ahimsa (non violence). That stupid Gandhi made us weak.

The entire German society are willing partners to this. They stood and gawked while the Indians were beaten. And the police, freed 2 men who were questioned. And yet we are beating our own balls about it.

Indians MUST show their displeasure over this. This is why we are NOT taken seriously all over the world in spite of all the big f**king talk. When we want security council seat, we go begging to nations to seek approval.

We must be strong enough for them to INVITE us. For them to find us indispensible. Like it was with China.

Indians are vegetarians stinking weak bums and deserved to get beaten up wherever they go.

Rubbish people!

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#20
Deepti Lamba
August 23, 2007

Menokki, an eye for an eye and the world will be blind. We are a strong nation, people choose to leave or stay as do people around the world.

East Germany is known to be a volatile region. When the soccer games were to be held in Germany wide spread warnings were sent out to non white visitors not to visit the interior regions of Germany.

When one still decides to make a living in such an area they do it at their risk.

We aren’t beating our ‘own balls’ about it, we are discussing the matter and making a note not to visit a country where we may fear for our lives at any given corner.

I cannot comprehend how you are linking National pride to racist attacks made on Indians living abroad.

Like I said in a previous thread we do not need validation from the west, we do not need for them to see us as equal, we did not need the damn bomb just to plead our case as a Superpower (security reason? thats a different ball game).

We don’t need to prove shit to anyone. Our government is run by a bunch of old baboons who have yet to understand that.

And we even told the Norwegians and French to stick up their aid where it hurts when the Tsunami hit us. Our own people galvanized into action, even bloggers did their bit, some even went down to the islands.

Today we have surplus in our reserves and just a decade we were a bankrupt nation. You seem to have forgotten that.

You may see us as weaklings but when shit hits the fan we always stand together.

Enough of my chest beating patriotism.

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#21
BRE
August 23, 2007

The incident is a very big deal here in Germany as it should be, so it is surprising to hear that not much was reported in India’s mainstream media and press. Perhaps India’s publishers and journalists don’t want to strain relations with an important European trading partner, Germany.

The attack was actually an attempted lynching by more than 150 people in the small East German town of Mügeln. The area (Sachsen) is well known for its violence and prejuidices against foreigners of any kind but especially against people of South Asian and African origin. It’s the skin color and facial features you see that gets the white supremacists and neo-Nazis in Germany so riled up.

The Indian Ambassador to Germany actually visited the site of the crime along with a whole bunch of German poltical figures, and to my knowledge none of the Indian nationals involved were asylum seekers, certainly not the Indian owner of the pizzaria where all the victims sought refuge from the crazed, bloodthirsty mob.

Have a look at Spiegel International (Der Spiegel magazine, English version) for more information (incl. photos) about the attempted lynching and the German government’s and German public’s reactions. It may make you think twice or three times before choosing certain parts of Germany as a nice place to work and live.

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#22
Nice Indian
August 23, 2007

My warm greetings to my old friends Deepti and Amman and congrats on launching this great blog!! I have been planning to write something and Amman has been kind to invite me on several occasions but its hard to find some quality time while trying to make a living!!

Anyway I write with mighty trepiditation that my views might be viscerally attacked, since I have read some pretty nasty stuff on touchy issues of national identity and culture. I have seen some posts reacting quite virulently to even mildest criticism of India. But hope my old friends will come to my rescue!!!

A few points about Eastern Germany:

1. This is exactly what happens when you treat an entire part of a society like an ‘underclass’ low wage buffer, I was very shocked recently to watch a documentary in German about the low wages of 7oo euros per month for a large section of the population. I know German prices and can assure you that its really harsh and bad. So this treatment of ‘new’ Europeans as low-wage labourers is triggering these extreme violent reactions. Another issue is that a lot of small towns in Eastern Germany are being emptied of women as they leave for greener pastures, a heavy exodus of skilled migrants to West, and rather inferior treatment of Easterners in the West. A friend of mine once told me about the disbanding of the trade unions of Eastern Germany.

2. Eastern Germany is known for its racist and xenophobic violence and its just getting more orgiastic in terms of the gang of fifty attacking a few Indians. Mind you similar attacks are a passe in other parts of Europe including Belgium where some pretty rough racist youth gangs operate in inner-cities. So its not something we should be utterly shocked about or be very critical of the German government.
I dont want to sound leftie but the disenfranchisement through dismantling of European social model will have grave consequences.

3. I think this rise of Indian nationalism on blogs, should be perceived in very serious light. Why are the Indians so upset and angry? Mind you as the nation grows and prospers the issue of identity will be more important, and caution should be exercised not to unleash racist forces. Deepti I absolutely agree that Germans need not be beaten up and why should be care about the impressions of others…however having said that if this is the rising sentiment then we need to address it. All I can say is that Identity is also about how people perceive you and not just how you perceive yourself. I am shocked to hear that in some Bangalore cases there is very clear discrimination against lets say ‘fair-skinned foreigners’ with parts of our intelligentsia championing stoking such sentiments.
So its time we discuss openly what we want India to symbolize and then temper it. I think we find strong collective societies tend to be more xenophobic, whereas individualist societies tend to integrate outsiders better. Im glad that blogs like these are promoting dialogue, and surely it angers to be seen ‘pushed around’. Tragically the global order is not benign and this struggle is built into it.

I dont have the answer…just wish the richer nations moved on beyond the 19th century model of us and them, domination and exploitation.

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#23
@Ruvy in Jerusalem
August 23, 2007

A pogrom in a Diaspora country resonates with me, as it does with any Jew with a brain in his head and a sense of history. This is why I’ve paid such careful attention to this article.

As anyone who has read my own articles knows, I’m a proud Jewish nationalist. I read what Deepti writes in comment #20 and can see why she sympathizes with me. I can put Jew or Israel in place of Indian or India and have most of what she has written apply to me.

But, I’d point out one area where we differ. Just as Jew-haters may not necessarily learn from reasoning, neither do racists. If they only learn from broken bones, skulls, necks, or bloodied faces and bodies, then so be it. The racist needs to be educated in the fact that his racism is his problem, not that of his intended victim. It is the intended victim who must teach him this – not the police or law courts. Sometimes a person who has “lost an eye” learns to “see” a whole lot better.

Learning this in America from the martyred Rabbi Meir Kahane, may his blood be avenged, was a liberating experience for me. It allowed me to walk as a Jew with a straight back even in exile, unlike the vast majority of Jews, who seem to think that pleading with non-Jews is the natural order of things.

In that spirit, I would suggest to Indians that living in Germany is just not worth it, and that Germans generally are just not worth it. They have proven their barbarity with 11 million dead in concentration camps. It doesn’t matter how many fat, sausage eating pigs of politicians they send to apologize for the barbaric behavior of the native Nazis. We all know just what kinds of bastards most Germans are, and until they work damned hard at cleaning up the blood off their hands, they should be judged by the acts of Hitler’s Nazis. The behavior of Germans since re-unification has shown that they have not been de-nazified at all. The evil of mass murder has not been purged from their souls; they do not deserve your trust, nor do they deserve the trust of any Jew – period.

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#24
@Amarjit Singh
August 23, 2007

This was the reply from German Foreign Ministry in Berlin on behalf of my letter addressed to this office on other day:
thank you very much for your e-mail dated 22 August to Foreign Minister Dr. Steinmeier, who has asked me to reply to you.

The German Government condemns in the strongest possible terms the violence against Indian nationals which recently occured in Muegeln. The German Government has made it clear that this case must be thoroughly investigated and the culprits called to account. As you might be aware, the prosecuting attorney’s office has promptly started his investigations.

Germany is an open country and society that welcomes people from other countries and cultures. We highly value the contributions of foreigners and also of the Indian community in Germany to our society. It goes without saying that the security and protection of all citizens, be it foreigners or Germans, from violence and racial attacks such as in
Muegeln, is of the highest importance for the German State and its Government. The German Government will, therefore, not tolerate any xenophobic incidents like in Muegeln and will not allow that they undermine the peaceful living together of foreigners and Germans in Germany.

Sincerely

Dr. Ralf Horlemann
Deputy Director South Asia
Federal Foreign Office (Division 340)
Werderscher Markt 1
10117 Berlin
Tel.: 0049/30/5000-2642
Fax: 0049/30/5000-2801

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#25
B Shantanu

August 23, 2007

*** CAUTION LONG COMMENT ***

All,

I have been watching this discussion with great interest. Here are some more thoughts on the comments.

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@ Menokki:
I agree with you: “Indians MUST show their displeasure over this”

But I believe a better “fight back” strategy would be to really do something where it hurts – in trade, cultural relations, a temporary boycott of goods/services and generally making the larger world aware of what actually happened.

If we do all this, it will hurt enough (IMHO).

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@ Deepti: Good points – in particular:

“We are a strong nation, people choose to leave or stay as do people around the world.” – Absolutely.

The link to national pride (that Menokki appears to be making) is more a nod towards the silence of the media, I think…but I may be wrong.

And I whole-heartedly agree that “we do not need validation from the west, we do not need for them to see us as equal” – If we do well, become better and behave in way that commands respect, validation will follow.

As for the government (being) “run by a bunch of old baboons” – that’s a topic for another post, I think!

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@ BRE:
I don’t think the reason for the incident not getting publicity in the Indian media had anything to do with not straining “relations with an important European trading partner”…

I am more with Chandra on this (see comment #14)

Thanks for filling in with more details.

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@ Nice Indian: I am writing this in a 45min-window in a busy day – so pl. forgive the “quality” of my remarks (ref your comment: “its hard to find some quality time while trying to make a living!!” – cannot agree more!)

I am very (and I mean, very) keen to have a debate around national identity, culture etc – not because I know something but because I think they are almost taboo topics rarely addressed in sane, sensible and intelligent discussion in the blogosphere.

However, this may not be the best forum to engage in a full-fledged discussion on this subject. So here is my open invitation to you – Please do write something on this subject and I promise to put it up on my blog – and use that as a starting point for a debate/discussion.

To trigger some thoughts, have a look at https://satyameva-jayate.org/2006/12/14/bangalore-bengaluru/ (on renaming Bangalore) and https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/01/04/identities-and-globalization/

Now that I have got it off my chest, here is a quick response to your points:

1. Re. “treatment of ‘new’ Europeans as low-wage labourers is triggering these extreme violent reactions”: Oddly such extreme violent reactions are not seen in other parts of the world (the Poles in UK or the Mexicans in US or the Bangladeshis in India). I wonder why?
I agree that the issue has something to do with globalization, migration of skilled labour,, pressure on economies due to immigration etc but that does not provide the full context (again, IMHO).

By the way, in the comments on my main blog: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/08/21/mob-attack-on-indians/#comments , Ashutosh has made a similar point at #12 (and #17)

2. “Eastern Germany is known for its racist and xenophobic violence and its just getting more orgiastic” – agreed. Again, one can try and rationalise such behaviour but that will not make it OK, would it?

The “dismantling of European social model” might have grave consequences – however, immigrant traders who appear to have reasonably integrated into the local community seem to be poor (almost desperate) targets for such anger.

3. Re. “rise of Indian nationalism on blogs, should be perceived in very serious light”: Now this is something that needs “quality time” (!) but I cannot resist adding a few lines.

Why has “nationalism” become a label that attracts sneering contempt? I may have misunderstood you but I find it very irritating that people (mentally) sometimes equate nationalism with being “primitive”, something “bad” and a sentiment which we should “grow out of”.
Isn’t that a lazy cop out from what could be a robust discussion?

You ask, “Why are the Indians so upset and angry?” – Enough people here have commented on that so I will not add much except or saying that my anger is NOT with Germany or Germans but with the conspicuous silence of our media and commentators on this matter.

You mention the sentiments in Bangalore – perhaps I missed it. Do you have a link or any reference?

But I concur with your concluding statement: “(I)…just wish the richer nations moved on beyond the 19th century model of us and them, domination and exploitation.” – Well said.

Finally, if you don’t mind, I would like to put your comment on my blog as well so that we can initiate a wider discussion – but if you would rather not, I will respect your wishes.

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@ Ruvi: Thanks for sharing your perspective.
I like your sentence: “The racist needs to be educated in the fact that his racism is his problem, not that of his intended victim.”!

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@ Amarjit: Thanks for being so proactive. I will be watching the investigation with interest although I believe that the two initial suspects have been released – Does anyone have any more information/update?

Thanks all.

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Thanks to PS for putting this together.

Related Post: Mob attack on Indians: Why is the Indian media silent?