Mob attack on Indians: Why is the Indian media silent?
Some of you may have already read the story of a group of Indians being attacked by a mob of 50 people in eastern Germany over the weekend.
Strangely though, I did not seen much coverage in mainstream media of this story.
Exceept for DNA India , The Tribune and IBN no other newspaper seems to have carried the story.
Perhaps they are more pre-occupied with “BSP gifts prime land to Maya brother’s trust“, “UPA Govt will not complete full term, says Advani” and “Sanjay Dutt gets interim bail from SC“.
There has also been very little coverage on the blogosphere…except for one post on INI Signal, I hardly found anything else.
Curiously, the police “denied there was a neo-Nazi motive behind the attack, despite eye-witnesses accounts of people calling for “foreigners out.”
And it appears that there may have been a hint of trouble beforehand:
“…There were reports Monday that the police had been warned in advance of the attack but had done nothing to prevent it. Mayor Gotthard Deuse told the German news station N24 that there had been warnings of possible problems at the street party…
Attacks on foreigners are far from unusual in eastern German states such as Saxony, where there are concerns that far-right groups are gaining in strength and taking on institutional roles in some places. The far-right, neo-Nazi National Democratic Party (NPD) holds several seats in Saxony’s state assembly, having won over 9 percent of the vote in the 2004 state election”
P.S. The incident was not revealed by the police until a day later and as of yesterday, no arrests had been made.
The attack was also reported in the International Herald Tribune and The Boston Globe.
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Cross-posted on Desicritics.Org
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I’m sure “neo-Nazis” had nothing to do with this attack. I suggest that it might have been caused by people who are dissatisfied with technical assistance provided by Indians. It seems that just about all Internet service providers have contracted-out their technical help functions to Indian firms. Every time I’ve sought service, I got an Indian person who spoke very poor English, and didn’t seem to know his/her job very well. It is so frustrating to deal with these people, that I’ve thought it would be nice to punch out a couple of them myself.
I further note: If one enlarges the picture of the offended Indian, one will notice his arm patch which says, “Ruffian.” One will further note from some of the other pictures, that his Indian friends are wearing “do rags,” or hankies over their small calvariums. These are two trademarks that street-gang thugs wear. It’s pretty obvious that there’s more to this story. One might imagine that these Indians are street hoodlums out to intimidate people in this peaceful town. Apparently, the town’s youth wouldn’t stand for Indian shenanigans and showed these thugs some healthy German resistance. Why Spiegel always sides with foreigners rather than Germans is the real story behind the story.
Albert: Very quick response to your comments (I will write a mroe detailed reply hopefully later):
1: Even if people are “upset” about outsourcing, that does not justify an attack by a mob on a group of apparently helpless fellows.
I am not sure if you are serious when you say: “It is so frustrating to deal with these people, that I’ve thought it would be nice to punch out a couple of them myself” – if that is your line of reasoning, you need to grow up a little bit…
2. I have not seen the enlarged pictures and there may well be more to this story…but again, it is hard to imagine the Indians being street hoodlums – they have been reported as traders who were operating in the town for more than 10 years.
Finally, it was not only Spiegel that reported the attack…BBC, IHT, Boston Globe and several others news sources mentioned the attack as well.
Dear Albert Schweinemann,
I have another explanation than the one you suggested. I think probably the Indians revolted against the god-awful pig-laden German food at the festival.
Or maybe they were also upset with all the jobless Huns who had congregated at the festival.
I am so sorry that you find Indians speaking poor English when you call for technical support. Maybe you should have a look around rural Germany and see how many of the porky burghers there can string together even two words of English, let alone have the brains to work in a technical support call center.
Or maybe you need to take some classes and learn how to use the internet so that you don’t have to call India for help every day.
Healthy German resistance? WTF are you talking about? Didn’t you guys lose all the wars you ever fought? Maybe at the next festival, we will invite some Russians to come and teach you East Germans a lesson.
Shantanuji, thanks for hilighting this issue, it has literally made me unwell. The country & its leaders were all so busy yesterday counting headless chickens that this major incident was side-tracked by most of the main-stream media, though I noticed in the evening Times Now giving a constant coverage to it. That it was the handiwork of neo-nazi thugs is beyond doubt, that they have perpetrated it so brazenly on Indians is what is shocking & that the official reaction has been so subdued is highly demoralising. Where does then all this talk of emerging global power, human unity, world convergence etc go. The German govt must ensure that the thugs are rounded up.We must all put on record our condemnation & warning that such things are not going to be tolerated, the neo-nazis are representative of a regressive force which seeks to impose an irrational medieaval way of life & they have to be resisted.
p.s. As to Albert, its true, please grow up, you know how unruly rude children are disciplined don’t you? – you know the efficacity of a hard spank in these matters, I am sure!!!
i can understand the reaction of Albert as i know lot of such frustrated people in western world who have realised that they are loosing their jobs to sart indians. whatever it is, whether we speak poor english or whatever, the reality today is that we are getting business. secondly, it was India, bu all other western countries who occupied poor nations and made them more poor in the past. i am surprised that people like Albert dont even talk about it and ask questons to their seniors why they did this? and arrogance and killing others is not the way Indians are. I visited dachau very recently and i could see the concentrattion camp myself and i think Indians lag much much behind in terms of way to handle people in that fashion for sure. so dear Albert, dont get scared. work hard. study hard and then possibly there is a chance that business might come back to you. for your kind infomation, mercedez benz is now in India, T-Systems is in India and lot of yur own German companies are moving to India. So hope such a situation should not arise where probably you Germans need to beg for a VISA to come to India searching for jobs. Best luck!!
Let it be clearly registered, that I hold no grudge against Indians. In fact, I’ve really ever given much thought to them, until I’ve had to sample their “technical assistance;” however, since the subject has now been broached, I think it’s quite fair to recognize their shortcomings in the area of , for one, technology. India has produced very, very few industrial patents in the last three centuries, so it makes sense to state that there little technical sense among them; although, I believe they are a very analytical people who learn math and physics quite well in a Western university setting. They have been doing this very thing for at least one-hundred-fifty years. When they return to India with their acquired knowledge and stated purpose to “improve their country,” absolutely nothing happens, nothing changes.
On the other hand, the Germans, whom you feel so free to criticize, have made enormous contributions to every facet of human endeavor. They are perhaps the most inventive and creative people in the world.
You state that Germany, which has only been a nation since 1870, has never won a war. How does one forget the Franco/Prussian War and its outcome? And who is to state that England didn’t lose WWII more than the Germans? And, was it not a victory for Germany to rid itself of Soviet Union’s boorish occupation by merely writing them a check?
One can concede that the US won WWII, since its entire economy, both military and domestic, is based largely on appropriated German patents, processes and copyrights.
If there are a few “unemployed Huns” milling about a small German town’s fairgrounds, that is their right.
Indian thugs should think about returning to the country their people have built over the last few thousand years, take a sponge-bath in the Ganges, and tend to their sacred cows. But please, let them offer no technical assistance.
Shantanuji, this Albert seems to himself posses a xenophobic mindset & has a very skewed pedestrian logic.
He talks about very few industrial patents by India in the last 3 centuries forgetting that India was being badly ravaged by the so-called civilised world for 200 years. Indians had the guts to fight, die & win their own freedom. The Germans on the other hand since their formation into a nation have exhibited, apart from their development in philosophy, music, art, political thinking, always an ultra-nationalist & aggressive nationalism which finally culminated in the rise of Hitler, his ‘profound struggle’ & world domination & the heaping of unthinkable misery & atrocities & crime aggainst humanity. The extermination of the jews would have been unthinkable in India, simply impossible.
Germany developed technology during WW-II period but misused it badly & became instruments in the hands of Asuric forces whose aim was to destroy human civilisation & end all spiritual progress, India may have gone slow but she has always been on the side of world progress, has never turned cynical or xenophobic, has always attempted to contribute to world welfare & wealth.
The likes of Albert just show the hidden insecurity that many westerners posess when looking at rising & awakening India. How does he know that nothing improves & changes in India, what are his sources of knowlegde, information, does he know India sufficciently to comment on her change, growth & development. His life revolves around the word technology, even there Indian scientists are unparalleld & India today is at the forefront of technological developement.
What have most of the German indologists done on the other hand, mis-represented India’s, culture, religion, philosophy & whose effects are still being countered today. One can go on & on, the fact is that since we have a growing relation with Germany, this kind of irrational, barbaric behaviour is totally unacceptable, in the world today no country can stand isolated or try to stem the blurring of borders which shall keep happening as the world grows in economic, technological, cultural interchange its a fact we must all accept & work towards facilitating.
P.S. As to sponge-bath in Ganga, Albert, all Germans must come & have a sponge bath in the Ganga to atone for & wash away sins committed against humanity in WW-II, it will liberate your souls & your ancestors’ too & only India can provide you with that karmic facility!!!!
I would not call the relationship between India and Germany a “growing relationship,” as they have always been cooperative with one another. Let us look back to India during the Hilter era: The sentiment for Germany was stronger than it was for their occupiers, the English. The English found it necessary during that time to impose draconian measures in order to keep the Indians from revolting and “jumping ship.” Savitri Devi was termed “Hitler’s Priestess” and it was she who provided the metaphysical rationalization for the SS organization. Numerous Indians volunteered and fought in the ranks of Germany’s Waffen SS. Please do not pretend now to be off-put by political developments in Germany today, and do not continue to dissemble.
WWII atrocities were indeed terrible. Had it not been for the Russian Revolution and its subsequent murder – mostly in peacetime — of some 65million souls (Solzenitzen’s number) and the exclusive destruction of 46,000 Christian places of worship, then the tone for the murderous 20th Century would not have thusly been set. Germany has been punished for its crimes, those who committed record-setting atrocities in the Soviet Union have not. Perhaps that is what should now be addressed.
Comment was made about India being ravished and kept down by her occupiers. No modern day country has ever been ravished to the degree that Germany was. Allied victors were executing the Morgenthau Plan of destroying and stealing Germany’s industrial base, seizing large tracks of land, starving civilians, and enslaving workers and shipping them off to other countries. All this after raping their women and killing 3 million people after the war ended. It only came to a stop when they figured out that they needed German creativity and brain-power in order to successfully deter the SU from taking all of Europe. Of course the SU wound up needing Germans, also.
When the first Sputnik went up, and the US satellite followed, a story circulated in Germany about two satellites circling about in space. One was Russian the other was American. By chance they wound up aside each other. One whispered to the other: “Now that we are alone, we can speak German.”
As I suggested above, there is certainly more to the story that Spiegel presents. Again, I site the “Ruffian” badge warn by one of the “victim” and I point out the “do rags” that his cohorts are wearing. This is not the dress of innocent Gastarbeiter, it is the style of “Ruffian (s),” just as you witness in the picture (the picture is the “large” version on the Indian with the stitched-up temple, who rests his hand in his head.) Usually Indians are indeed better behaved, but not this group, who were all together milling in ruffian fashion through the German festival attendees. It is no wonder that such provocation resulted in fist fights. One might wonder if Germans were not also injured, but of course no pictures would be offered of them.
See also some of the comments here:
http://desicritics.org/2007/08/21/114120.php
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All: Thanks for the comments. I will respond & add my thoughts hopefully later today.
Dear friends on the blogsite,
I too picked up the story yesterday and was frankly aghast. A conversation with my German business partners followed and they were really embarassed but this response is not about my own experience.
One part of my mind reasoned that this was a one off incident that happened in an atmosphere given to drunken disorderliness – an incident that happened in a region that is struggling to come to grips with inevitable fall outs of a increasingly globally integrated business/commercial world. Perhaps words had been exchanged and the situation had got out of hand…another part of my mind wondered if this was indeed the thin end of the wedge. A manifestation of hard line right wing minorities in Europe responding to an inevitable global trend that has caught them off guard, left them unprepared and confused.
Living as an enterpreneur in Europe it is hard for me to reject from my mind the brewing of right wing sentiments – not just in Germany but also France and England (where i live) and where the BNP is offering a value proposition not too dis-similar to the one that was being (and continues to be) offered by the Shiv Sena to the local residents of Mumbai.
Indeed it is not beyond the realm of imagination to conjure such an incident happening against indian professionals in rural France or in one of the BNP popular areas of the North East England but it is an improbable incident to occur in say London or Manchester or for than matter in Paris or Frankfurt.
So based upon this hypothetical scenarios, it is possible to “reason” why such an incident occured and a plausible link might be made that in non-metropolitan areas/ relatively poorer areas where education/understanding of this global trend is non existent such incidents might occur.
I have my own two bit to submit to readers of this site- it is not about eductaion or the message of globalisation reaching the hinterlands of developed nations- it is fundamentally about tolerance in societies.
I shall offer the same hypothetical example of the Shiv Sena in Mumbai or in any small town in Maharashtra where the party operates: There are over 250,000 expatriates living and working in Mumbai and like its counterpart cities London, Frankfurt or Paris such an incident has not occured there.
I shall also submit this that should a large international workforce tomorrow be found in say Sangli or Satara or Aurangabad it is implausible that foreigners would be assaulted in this manner (even if they would have resulted in reduced employment opportunities locally). For all you know, there would emerge a service business to serve this newly arrived community!
The messages of globalisation have not fully reached these above mentioned places either; nor is there enough education available on these subjects out there.
The issue is not of globalisation or the lack of education regarding the issue- it is fundamentally about tolerant societies. I humbly submit that this is what India has to offer to the world.
best wishes,
Ashutosh Shastri
PS: The real reson why this news item appalled me is that I had to ask my business partners if it was safe for me to travel to Germany this week given my countrymen were being assaulted. I have to say my German friends were embarassed. I have followed the vitriol on technology/patents that has been spilt on this site- sufice to say that my German partners cannot develop their conceptual technology in Germany anymore, are excited that their lifes work will see the real light of the day thanks to Indian engineering, creativity, enthusiasm and entrepreneural zeal. I rest my case.
German “friends” should not be embarrassed. In fact, this expectation that Germans should be “embarrassed” or should apologize to people who have squatted in their country is ridiculous. People in the Western world are used to seeing Indians in National Geographic Magazine, not in their neighborhoods. There are actually Indians equipped with flute, snake, basket and all, sitting on stoops and going through their snake-charming routines. This is not good behavior in Germany. Know that “when in Rome do as the Romans do.” Perhaps Germany will soon have miserable fakirs lying on nail beds or wrapping their legs around their necks. Please leave such bizzare behavior where it belongs — in India.
To Spiegel’s credit, they have not taken off the picture of Singh Gorvinda, one of the alleged victims. I do feel sorry that he has had such a wound delivered to him, but one must admit to there being a bit of humor in the “large” version of the photo, which shows him holding his damaged head while wearing his “Ruffian” shirt. He looks like someone who has gotten his comeuppance, and it must have been from one of those incredibly strong German farm boys. He’s learned his lesson, and I’m sure won’t be messing with Germans anymore.
Dear Friends.
Be it Germans, American or English for that matter. When the Christians were involved in WWI and WWII, they were among the same faith. The true natures of wider picture is here, they are there to fight for the cause of wealth, land and supremacy over the human kind.
India on the other hand had not invaded any nation or did any crime against any Humanity all over the world. It gave refuse to Parsis from Persia, Jews form Middle East and many more different civilizations. ( This could be interpreted as weakness)
If Indian Civilisation was not a forward looking and not as Technologically developed in BC ( Before Christ era) Why the so called Westerners and Easterners ( ?Civilizaed) invaded India.
Why did MaxMullar and many more visited India?
Is it just to learn “Thuggery”?
Learn the advances India has made before it was conquered by the Islamic Sword and Christendom.
Jealousy will take you no where.
Shantanuji, I did not realise that German logic was so bad & i am not commenting on the construction of english sentences. That Germany was the most ravished nation earth is accepted, but Germany deserved it because it generated the most ravishing wars in human history. It is a result of that action & Germany should have been prepared to face the consequences. Victors in a conflict have always the upper hand , therefore its no use complaining what the allies did after they won the first war, can we imagine what Hitler would have done with the world had he won the second war? We would all probably be punched & repeatedly so. As to Indians siding with Germans during WW-II it was a straight case of my enemies enemy is my friend, but many also realised that Hitler was a greater threat to the world – representative of an aggressive & violent imperialism as against the decadent imperial force of Britain. Even Netaji was uncomfortable with axis esp Hitler & sided with them only for reasons of logistics & always displayed an independent spirit of action & judgement. I take his name , because I am certain that our esteemed commenter may have some twisted perspective to Netaji too in this respect, so I pre-empt. Let not people who do not possess the full understanding of the Indian situation & context comment on Indians siding with Hitler, there were twice as many who fought with the Allies, e.g. Indian soldiers played a pivotal role in the battle of El Alamein etc.
I do not see any difference between Stalin’s Russia & Hitler’s Germany , one Asura was needed to exterminate another & both eventually met their end inspite of their postures & the world goes on. But I repeat Germany has had to face the consequences of its actions. And the commenter being German must focus on that.
Regarding the said incident, the cry of ‘foreigners go back’ was given & that shows the nature & intention of the crime. Debate can continue as to whether it was mild shout, drunken shout or aimed at rowdies. One thing is for certain that our esteemed commenter would have never faced such shouts in this country (India)-urban or rural. That shows the true nature of its people & way of life. He must realise this fact, accept it, respect it & be sorry for what happened over the weekend in his country.There is no use in indulging in cheap & shallow polemics. Another thing is certain, the nazi ways of life & thought are dead for good, the ones that go by the name of neo-nazis are but rootless & directionless riff-raffs who just want to score a few browny points & Germans who support them may one day regret it. The emerging age is that of India’s & it shall represent her unique way of life, of thought & growth & the world regardless of all opposition petty & big shall come to respect & accept it, mind you this shall not be a conquest of blood & iron but one of the soul & inner mind.
P.s. Any one who has a sense of economics, trade, business, technology, communication etc will realise that our relations with Germany is a growing one, maybe its too difficult to expect people to give sustained thought & make careful observation on these aspects!!!!
Shantanuji, lookslike you have a relic left-over of the Weimar or the SS in your Blog comment section!!!!
Well put, Anirban.
Perhaps it might enlighten some participants here that several regional governments within Eu countries- German Regional Governments included- are putting together task forces, budgets and resources to include India in their wider economic-trade-education and healthcare aspirations. This is reflective of the situation that India cannot be ignored in the wider international world.
So there is no point in being in denial about it. The incident that occured cannot be ignored. Where we must deviate from tolerance in when confronting intolerance. this confrontation must however be fact based, logical and persistent. So long as we adhere to this tenet I suspect better sense will prevail.
best wishes,
Ashutosh
Ashutoshji, Dhanyavada, for your enlightened intervention, which has succintly reflected the growing relationship of India-EU & Germany.
Yes, no alternative to being fact based, logical, persistent, I agree.
namaste
Anirban
One must observe that India has no need to go forth and invade or attack other nations. Firstly, they are incapable of pulling it off … even against little Pakistan. Secondly, they get plenty of abusive exercise by belittling and stifling others inside their own country. Those who are such victims are termed “untouchables,” and it is they who make the fun for the balance of the Indian population. There must be tens of millions of these untouchables, and what delight it must give other Indians to look down upon them. Some claim there was once a racial basis for this class system, but it is now not too visible as the touchables have done much “straying from the bedroom,” as Indians are wont to say.
Yes, and Netaji did hang out with Hitler as much as he could and lived quite awhile in the German capital. I don’t know if excuses for his behavior, as that given by another commenter, can really be believed.
With regard to India’s progress, I think it largely depends on their keeping very low wages. To pay them more than they’re worth would bring the whole scheme to a halt. The Indians, like the Chinese, do not invent anything. That is not to say that they’re not analytical, but they do lack the spark of inventiveness that is so important to civilization in all its aspects. One can detect this lack of inventiveness in Indian and Chinese music. Ask yourselves: Who actually buys and/or listens to Chinese music?
It humorous to me to hear Indians talk about technology, economics, trade and “business” (“…we’re getting business”) All of these things can be claimed, but not in the sense of invention. The inventors are in the Western world, and nothing happens without them. India and China will always be the latest invention behind, because they cannot copy fast enough.
I have talked with Chinese persons who honestly do not understand the difference between invention and manufacturing. They say, “What do you mean we don’t invent, look at all the things we manufacture.” The whole concept of invention is unknown to them. I think the Indians are more aware of this shortcoming and are hoping to go ’round it by “getting business” — an admirable thing to do.
Shantanuji, at least we have not attempted to exterminate or burn our ‘untouchables’ but have attempted to give them equal opportunities, the right to rule & grow & the process is on. ‘Untouchables’ in India have become heads of states, institutions, organisations etc. I do not go into the origins of the non-heredity of the varna system, the degeneration of the caste system & the various other historical & social factors, they are too subtle, too deep & require much erudition & understanding. Imagine if these untouchables had fallen under Hitler’s net, they would indeed have had a raw deal, segregation, arm-bands, ghettoisation, concentration-camp, gas-chamber , ashes & all this because they are he would say UN-ARYANS!
As to Netaji’s behaviour, I think being a scholar myself, I know a little bit more about his life than my esteemed commenter & anyway I feel it below my INDIAN DIGNITY to discuss Netaji’s behaviour & record with a narrow, hard-boiled SS sympathiser.
I did not know our esteemed commentator possessed any humour but the laugh or smile of a knave is humour as well. Anyway his comments on India & China are out of malice because both are emerging powers who shall sooner rather than later dwarf other nations in many areas therefore other angles are for me irrelevant & prejudiced
You see, the beauty of this whole debate has been that none of the Indian commenters have since morning threatened their estemeed German commenter with even as much as a virtual punch , on the other hand his punching postures throughout the day is quite evident. The former signifies the Indian spirit of absoption the latter signifies as I said a retrograde SS relic-mentality out of place in the modern world.
One more comment about Pakistan, we have taught Pakistan a tough lesson everytime it has got down to adventurism, it is there for the record. But i understand why my esteemed commenter finds it fit to show case Pakistan because of certain similarity between the Pakistani soldiers & the xenophobic crowd that attacked Indians & Hitler’s SS.
Lft Saurabh Kalia’s eyes were gouged out, his body mutilated & his other comrades tortured to death throwing to winds the Vienna convention on POW by Pakistani soldiers, it reflects the same mentality as Hitler’s SS & the thugs who attacked Indians last weekend in Germany. No wonder our esteemed commenter finds solace in the Pakistani embrace!!!
Pakistan has only survived because of BIG brother (US) if not
Late Lal Bahadur Shastri (Ex-PM) ordered to stop Indian Army’s advance just out side Lahor’s city’s border, because US wanted ceasefire only after 10 days of war and US knew the strength of Indian Army in 1964 war.
@ Albert: Although some of your comments and remarks are widely off the mark, I am responding to them for the sake of completing the discussion. Here are my thoughts:
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Comment #1: To suggest that the attack was “caused by people who are dissatisfied with technical assistance provided by Indians” would have been outrageously funny in other circumstances but not in this case.
Surely there are other ways to register your protest in a democracy (which Germany is)?
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Comment #3: Yes, I noticed the arm-band too. Does this mean it is OK to beat the hell out of the guy? By that logic, Prince Harry (of UK) who famously wore an SS uniform to a party would have ended up in jail.
There may be more to this story – theoretically – but do you really believe that Indian “thugs” (even If I were to agree with your characterisation for a moment) will choose a small town in East Germany (of all the places) to intimidate and terrorise people?
You must have read that almost all the newspaper reports have mentioned them as being traders and merchants who had been working in the area for a long period of time.
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Comment #8: You say that “India has produced very, very few industrial patents in the last three centuries” – Are you aware that until about 60 years ago, we were a colony?
And also “Indian thugs should think about returning to the country” – in one sweep, you have turned from accuser to judge and already decided that these people were “thugs” – Can you please provide some more evidence?
You obviously have a lot to learn Albert – particularly about India but also about Globalization and how it is going to change your world and mine – the sooner you realise it, the better.
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Comment #10: You say: “Let us look back to India during the Hilter era: The sentiment for Germany was stronger than it was for their occupiers, the English” – This is a moot point and a value-laden observation. Anirban has already responded to it.
You also say, “No modern day country has ever been ravished to the degree that Germany was” – Again, a very subjective and incomplete observation – Pl. read a litlle more about world history before making definitive comments.
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Comment #13: “People in the Western world are used to seeing Indians in National Geographic Magazine, not in their neighborhoods” – Sure, does that mean, they violently attack them in a mob? Which “western” world are you living in, my friend – I thought the “west” was civilised?
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Comment #19: You mix a number of points here about our armed forces, Pakistan, the evil of untouchability etc. These are all serious issues that need more than a few words to do full justice – You don’t seem to have the time, patience and maturity to discuss them…But if you do, here are a few links, which I suggest you read and come back to comment:
For a better understanding of Caste, Varnas etc: http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_051125.htm
For a better understanding of the flaws in the “Aryan Invasion Theory”: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/
You say that “With regard to India’s progress, I think it largely depends on their keeping very low wages. To pay them more than they’re worth would bring the whole scheme to a halt.” – Again, please read and learn a bit more before jumping to conclusions. Indian salaries are rapidly rising as are standards of living – and yet the economy continues to get even more competitive – ask yourself why?
You also say “The Indians, like the Chinese, do not invent anything”
Have a look at these few posts:
Indian Contribution to Mathematics: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/08/20/hindu-contribution-to-mathematics-part2/
Advances in technology: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/01/12/indian-contribution-to-technology/
And another one: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/06/17/unsung-hero-jc-bose/
Other than this, independent India’s advances in space technology, biotechnology (more recently) and nuclear power technology are well documented.
And I have not even referred to Chinese “inventiveness”.
You also say: “One can detect this lack of inventiveness in Indian and Chinese music… Ask yourselves: Who actually buys and/or listens to Chinese music?” – this is such a shallow observation that I am not going to dignify it with a response.
As for your other remarks on India and China, you have the choice today of ignoring them or pretending that they do not matter.
Sadly, you next generation will not have that luxury.
Thanks for joining the discussion and I hope you have learnt something new from this.
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@ Heimlich, parag: Thank you for your comments and for joining the discussion.
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@ Anirban: Thanks for making some great points in your comments (and some robust argument)…particularly at #9, #15, #20
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@ Ashutosh: Thanks for making the point about tolerance and Indian “talent” – at #12
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@ Dr Ambekar: Thanks for your comments at #14 and #22. I have deliberately avoided commenting on our armed forces and Pakistan – that discussion is simply to big for this post…and I am not sure Albert has the background context and knowledge to engage in it.
I have a strong feeling that this guy Albert Heinemann is not a real German but a poser, who is here just to cause trouble and be a belligerent “tool”. A German who is so well-versed with the sub-continent and with Indian history in general (particularly noteworthy that he would know who “Netaji” is, without anyone mentioning his full name)? I doubt it…
Moreover, if he really was a German, it would not have been a big surprise to hear his views! Such “broad-mindedness” and “tolerance” is exactly what one would expect from the so-called true Aryans!!
Hi,
Even I have a feeling that this fellow Albert is not true German, some impostor I guess!
As pointed by Solomon, he knows more than other westerners about Indian Subcontinent, though thats a different thing that he had manipulated and distorted it to suit his ends.
He uses the word “fakir” which is not common in English vocabulary. He also highlights the “weakness” of India on part of “Pakistan”, given how many westerners know Pakistan? except when they talk of terrorism. This is another way of glamorizing Pakistan. I guess he could be from some nation hostile to India and it’s not hard to guess, quite easy actually! Just look westwards to India.
It seems to me that a compare and contrast contest between Indian and German culture is pointless. The two nations, the populations, the history, the culture, are so different as to defy comparison. It is a waste of energy to play that game.
I do, however, take offence to the talk that the Dalits “Untouchables” are greatly improved these days. There are what, 160 million of them or so? They face discrimination, violence, and horrendous conditions all over. The few that are allowed to reach a higher economic and social threshold are simply covers, just as when the US in the horrendous slavery days would occasionally act like a black man (Frederick Douglas for example) was to be treated as well as the whites were. It was just pomp while the rest of the whites looked down at him.
Goodness, just look at what happens when an “Untouchable” walks in front of a Jat. They still murder them in many, “Untalked” about instances, and if not kill, smash around a bit.
It is similar, but not as bad, as India’s treatment of Widows. This is what we are to expect from a spiritual people? Casting a 14 year old who’s much older arranged marriage husband died into the streets? Simply to die with no care? That is despicable behavior, and I don’t care if it is done for cultural reasons. Any culture that condones that is also despicable. At least instances of throwing them on funeral pyres is falling.
Speaking of culture, it is fascinating to me to read such works as the Bhagavad Gita. It seems to me to be a simple social control book designed to keep lower classes down and doing what they are supposed to do without questioning there betters. Especially when it comes to soldiering as is evidenced from many statements from Krishna. That is advanced culture? I suppose that following orders and not thinking idea made for the Nazi sympathy. “Just following orders” must have struck a cord.
If one really wants to look at the heart of the two cultures, I suppose we could take a rational approach to it. How many Germans and Europeans are moving to India? Other than to do time in an Ashram helping the poor? How many Indians are leaving their spiritual culture behind for the west?
I think that says a lot doesn’t it?
But really, this is not meant to pick on Indians, they are a wonderful people. But I hate this cultural pointing fingers that goes on, where twits without a sense of history like to pretend India and Asia are full of wonderful, thoughtful, kind, spiritual people and don’t have any of the SOB’s the west have.
Shantanuji, I think it is pointless to discuss INDIA with people who think that the ‘Gita is a simple social control book’ one can obviously acsertain the level of the intellect leaving aside openness to spirituality, I think the Mein Kampf hangover is still quite strong in Germany & as long as that is the condition one cannot expect circumspection, rationality, tolerance & depth of understanding from these people. And to top it all there is talk of rational approach!!
I do not think Albert is a German guy. The choice of words is very British actually and the language flows very smoothly for it to be a non-native speaker (you can always tell Europeans’ English apart).
Next time we have a problem with the Merc, I will go by Albert’s advice and deck every German in sight 🙂
P.S. Albert Heinemann btw is the name of a book publishing co that publishes text books.
@ Solomon and Satyam: Great observation and thanks for the comments.
I think you are both right (as Anon also seems to be suggesting)
****
@ Tibigratus: Quick response to your comments.
First, I find the tone of your remarks slightly annoying and not conducive to a rational discussion.
A lot of the points you made are either insinuations or offered without evidence.
To cite: “I do, however, take offence to the talk that the Dalits “Untouchables” are greatly improved these days.”
“greatly improved these days” is a relative term.
Greatly improved compared to what and since when? But to your remark: Has there been any improvement ? Absolutely, yes. Is that enough? No.
Is that a problem arising out of “spirituality”? of course not. Is that a problem arising out of “culture” – again, no.
It is a problem arising out of certain degenerative practices that crept in the social system over a period of centuries.
Do they have religious sanction? again, No.
***
You also cite the Bhagavad Gita and say “Especially when it comes to soldiering as is evidenced from many statements from Krishna…” Is Gita about soldiering? Have you read any version that is more than a few pages long?
And finally, are you seriously comparing cultures by counting the number of emigrants/immigrants?!
***
@ Anirban: “I think it is pointless to discuss INDIA with people who think that the ‘Gita is a simple social control book’” – well said.
***
Anyways, I think we should draw a line under this particular aspect of the discussion.
After all, the post was not about Germany or India or even racism but mainly about Indian media.
Thanks all.
Coming back the point from where this blog had started, I am utterly astonished by the way the Indian media has turned a blind eye on this issue. I read this news for the first time in Hindustan Tmes and was shocked that none of the Indian news channels were reporting it. Guess they are generally busy and more interested in telecasting hours long reports on people claiming to be reincarnated, Abu Salem making a movie on himself and Pooja Bedi, and ‘babas’ curing people.
When it comes to bashing people up like that, the only thing i have to say is it is not acceptable to beat anyone like that (for whatever reasons) regardless of the nationality of the victims.
@Albert: do you think it would have been alright to “show these thugs some healthy German resistance” (as you call it) if they were Germans only?
What happened was against the whole humanity and it must be condemned instead of getting into pointless debates over who made what contributions to the world. Grow up people!
Well said Shantanu.
It would have served some purpose if we had stuck to the subject under discussion. Instead, the forum was used to fling vitriolic comments. While it is good to learn lessons from history, it is foolish to live in history and refuse to grow up. The acerbic tone of one participant and his nauseating enthusiasm to rationalize the vandals could be nothing if not proof of the demoniacal spark of hatred lying latent in his heart. His heart does appear to be home to a catholic collection of bizarre and bigoted ideologies.
As for the reason why Indian media fought shy of this news, I would rather agree with Preeti. The India media circus has become news traders, and mere dissemination of news does not interest them anymore.
It is under duress that true character comes out. What this conversation does prove are two interesting aspect –
One, that at the bottom of their hearts, Germans (perhaps Europeans) continue to wallow in their sad ignorance of things beyond the wall. I am sure it will change over time – but not perhaps in Albert’s lifetime – so let’s please quit bashing him up for his upbringing and popular culture, something to which no one can be immune except the exceptional free thinkers. I see this attitude in the most highly educated people in UK, Europe and the US – and it does help a society to keep others at bay (something which no doubt in medieval times helped because “others” were routinely attackers).
Two, it is clear that most of us continue to be xenophobic and racist when provoked and when convenient. It can’t be disputed that there continues to be a phobia in the so-called “developed” nations about everyone they are ignorant of – and this will accelerate as the inevitable cycle of rise & fall of civilizations continues. However, this exchange shows that Indians find it equally convenient to indulge in juvenile name calling when frustrated – with irritating references to grandeur about an imagined glorious past – to retaliate to an ignoramus! No one can deny the spectacular improvements in India (Albert, really the infra and services today in many cases is far better than Germany – I have seen both), but no one can or should deny the abject poverty, communalism, or corruption that continue to eat away at gains made. In these areas, Germany is clearly well ahead – and I do hope India catches up soon in these areas!
Personally I wish there was more readiness for people of all cultures to be willing to look at their faults and accept shared responsibility – rather than racing to prove the other uglier. My best experiences happen when friends are made across cultures AFTER having openly (but not sneeringly) spoken about each other’s cultural peculiarities and having laughed together.
Albert, you should be proud many of your countrymen were amongst the first to be able to look beyond the naked fakir’s body lying on a bed of nails to actually go and find out the quest behind it. Even today in India, some of the early books on Yoga you find are written by Germans in 18– and 1900s. It is impressive indeed, and perhaps surprising to you that a “Hindoo” wasn’t another name for a savage in your country, but someone who had greater access into the mysteries of life than anyone else. When Europe was passing through the barbaric middle ages, people were indeed talking maths, philosophy, and arts in India – so when you cite an Einstein, you’d do well to remember that the decimal system is based on the very Indian invention of zero – which happened before anyone found Germany a place worth living in.
Similarly, Indians have achieved a lot in the last 60 years – more than some others would have believed or liked – and should really aim to get where they were in the world order 200 years back (instructive to read Darlymple’s article in Time 2 weeks back), which they can’t really do if the widely prevalant religious militantism or political corruption continue. Talking about Hitler is laughable for those who see a religious riot in most cities with clockwork precision – where people are killed en-masse in the name of being Hindu/ Muslim/ Christians/ Dalits in this century. That this India goes on existing along with multi-lingual techies is a fact – and not just a German’s ignorance!
@ Preeti and Nandan: Thanks for bringing the discussion back on track. I will respond in some more detail over the weekend.
Personally, I found the omission of this bit of news in the Indian media more saddening than suprising…more on that later.
***
@ HerrTickler: Thanks for the sharing the thoughts. I broadly agree with your observations…particularly:
“Personally I wish there was more readiness for people of all cultures to be willing to look at their faults and accept shared responsibility – rather than racing to prove the other uglier.”
Racism is the product of Europe. Under the banner of super-race (more aptly fair skined ego), they invaded and colonised others territories, subjugated, persecuted, destroyed culture and heritage, exploited the resources, and used natives as slaves. This is what they called civilization. And they don’t repent about it, rather they feel proud of it.
Germans colonised the Namibia and completely annihilated the Namib tribe (Namibia is named after Namib tribe, the native ethnic people), about few hundred thousands. Recently, German govt apolosied to Namibia for this barbaric action.
Same story goes to Spaniards, French, Portuguese, Dutch and others, and of course our Master British. All of them were barbaric to the core, else why they went around to invade others territories and loot others resources.
And don’t forget the missionaries accompanied the invadors to convert the native to christianity and made them sub-servient to white Europe by hook or crook. How cruel mass murderer was Francis Xavier, you can learn it from Goa Inquisition. Vatican decorated that cruel mass-murderer of Hindus as Saint. Had Hitler won the WWII, he would have been decorated with Sainthood by the Church. Church was partner with Hitler in his barbaric actions.
We Bharatiya/Indian must keep our head high. Doing business or working in other countries are not invasions. We work and do business, we don’t go there to beg. Many Germans and other foreigners doing business in India.
And mistakes are part of life. Indians too can make mistakes and get into quarrels and fight. Dadagiri are part of most Europeans and westerners, so foreigners always need to keep their head low. If anyone think of equality, then the problem arises. They can’t tolerate equality of foreigners in their territory. This is the fact. With the rise of Islamic Jihadi terrorism, their intolerance is rising.
Finally, let we investigate the event properly before calling it racism, neo-nazism and bla bla bla.
Well, I’m being proven right. There is indeed more to the story. Apparently the famous eight Indians got in some sort of dance floor jostling match with local youth. The locals faced them off, and the Indians got frightened at ran away.
I am reminded here of the pass of Thermopylae and how the Spartans fought the Persians despite facing extremely disproportionate numbers. They did not run and lock themselves in a pizza joint.
When the Germans were surrounded in the demolished tractor factory at Stalingrad, they fought on despite being vastly out-gunned and out-numbered. They did not run and lock themselves up in a pizza joint. They did not whine and whenge about whether or not the newspapers were reporting their story.
Imagine, the legacy these Indians are serving up. They claim the “fifty people” were chasing them, so they locked themselves in the pizza joint, and somehow these fifty people broke into the establishment and beat them up. That’s fifty plus eight plus one or two proprietors of the business. Sixty people in this little restaurant all beating these Indians! This is a grand fabrication. I believe it was probably two or three that came into the place and the Indians simply were outmatched. It was a very unmanly performance on their part, and their continued complaining about the absence of newspaper coverage back in India is risible. Indian newspapers seldom report the very frequent “cooking accidents” that kill off brides whose parents – coicidentally — haven’t met the daughters dowry payments. The reason they don’t report these events is because it is embarrassing to India.
They were given the grand opportunity to work in Germany and it seems they were given no advice on how to behave when living in a high-order nation, or they didn’t pay attention to such advice. They made fools of themselves by dressing in “Ruffian” shirts and swaggering about in “do-rags.” They did something foolish on the dance floor, which the locals found grossly out of line. When their “flight or fight” instinct arose, they fled.
@Albert: ROFLOL. That was really hilarious, Albert. I hope the wonderland in which you are living doesn’t cost you something really harmful. I simply can’t stop laughing after reading what you have written.
By the way, the Indian media does report about the dowry cases, if you have ever cared to actually to go through it. Don’t make assumptions! Oh, I forgot that you live in a wonderland of yours so, you are granted to make assumptions.
And, you never answered my question that I had asked you at #30.
I am sure the real Germans living in Germany would be better than you, if at all you are a German.
The new comments were read by me with great interest, but no one comments on India’s lack of inventiveness. It would be interesting to read what rationalization can be offered.
Further, it was noted by one of the commenters that India’s poor technological performance was due to their having been overrun, occupied and tormented over the last two-hundred years or so. It was pointed out that Germany suffered a murderous defeat and occupation, yet it is they who have recovered swiftly, without even a peace treaty having been signed to this day. This same country is now a do-or-die destination for Indians. What aspects of character make these people so different?
Still further, there have been many comments regarding “Aryans” and how wicked they are. Of course we all know that the original and ancient Aryans haled from India. I don’t know what happened with these people, they might have been bred out of the gene pool. And, yes, the Germans were very interested in the metaphysical accomplishments of these Hindus and their descendants. This is merely another field in which German researchers have excelled.
The Hindus gave us the concept of zero, this was indeed a great achievement. We can thank the Persians (Iran means “Land of the Aryans”) for algebra, and the Arabs for their numbering system. The Greeks were helpful in putting these concepts and systems together and advancing the field of geometry. We owe much to them. The ancient peoples were, however, hung up on exactitude when it came to mathematics. Not all problems could be solved while this mental fetish was extant. It was a German, Leibnitz, and an Englishman, Newton (my ancestor), who broke the barrier. Many an Asian student scratches his head while struggling to learn calculus. It requires quite a cultural leap, and to their credit, they’re able to do it. It’s the application they have trouble with, unless it is pointed out to them case-by-case.
Let it be stated over and over, this thing about advancements in India. (Someone even offered a link about space science advancements, which merely demonstrate that India is fifty or sixty years behind in copying German rocket science. Again, it’s not invention, it’s not invention, its not invention.) There has been buying-of-invention in the field of bio-science, as a couple of Hindu types have done very well in businesses related to this (Amgen), and they have the good sense to hire Europeans to do the more advanced lab research taking place in California. Usually there are a few Chinese and Indians muddling around these labs, but they are never the inventive ones even though they’ve sometimes wrangled to get there names included on insignificant patents. It’s rather like Einstein laying claim to the E=MC^2 formula of the Italian, DePretto.
On the matter of “racism being European,” let one explore the plight of the Indian “untouchable.” There is hardly anything so abominable in the whole world as this, and it has endured longer than Europe has been in Renaissance. Arabs were trading in African slaves, since time immemorial. The Chinese practiced “class-ism” and slavery for thousands of years. It was the same with the indigenous people of the new world. One has to wonder about the educational level of people who assign a origin for racism to Europeans. One may suspect they are the product of politically correct schools, which have eliminated grading of students lest some might feel slighted.
First time blogger to this site, so please excuse me if I overstep any boundaries, as this seems to be such a nice, civil site.
I think what happened to the Indians in Germany is reprehensible and there can be no excuse for the behaviour, whatsoever.
I don’t know why the TV media did not focus on this story, as much as some on this blog would have liked (left vs congress grabbing time maybe?) but I saw this report in sufficient numbers of newspapers to argue that this was not ignored or brushed under the carpet. You can, of course, keep arguing about the degree of coverage.
However, there is one other point for everyone to consider while they are on their self-righteous horses: how racist are Indians???? Although, this does not excuse the behaviour of the German thugs, I think we Indians are very racist, ourselves. While we seek to reform others, we should try and reforms ourselves, as well, right?
I speak from experience: I have seen how the average African is treated by the average Indian in cities like Mumbai and Pune. The number of racist comments that are invariably passed about these poor students would have led to lawsuits in any civilised country. And, generally, it is not the “lower” classes that makes the remarks. It is the middle and upper classes, who you would think knew better. Then they are invariably swindled in shops or restaurants, until they wisen up. It is also much easier for an expat white to rent a house in these cities and b’lore than an expat black.
And, it does not end here ….. I have seen this derogatory attitude towards blacks even in the US by the cream of our professionals. They will crib about the racism that they face and ten minutes later they are being racist about the black in the supermarket. And, it will always be in Hindi … no guts to say it in English.
In my limited world view, based on my travels, the two most hypocritical communities in the world are Americans and Indians. Say one thing, do another.
I am not even getting into our caste-based treatment, outside of the big cities.
So, yes, we should certainly complain, but at the same make sure that the mirror is not too far away.
Cheers
Hi Albert, are you a lowlife working class lout from Stuttgart, whose ancestors killed jews?? Germany badly needs to tell scums like you to shut up
Albert,
Most of your comments are laughable, but let me respond to a couple of your points.
Germany is not a “do or die” destination for Indian techies, and I know a whole lot of them. In fact, there was a high-powered German delegation that met Infosys about a couple of years back asking them to open an operation in Germany. Infosys refused and said that the work permit system of Germany sucked and they would rather work with US, UK or dutch companies where people were more open.
SO, hold your breath, Albert ……… the GERMAN GOVERNMENT created a new class of work permits only for Indian techies!!!!! Oh, I wonder, why did they do that? Did they have no brains? Did they not have enough “intelligent” Germans to do the work? How come a mere Indian company changed GERMAN POLICY???? Whoa! What’s up with that????
If you checked your demographics and the demographics of many of our neighbours, maybe you would be able to figure out the answer. But, I am NOT holding my breath.
RE: INVENTIVENESS
I could give you a big lesson on history, but I think I will pass, Instead let me condense it to this statement: civilisations are cylical in nature, they rise and they fall and some rise again.
For the last 300 years, the European civilisation has been on the rise, while Asian civilisation has been on the wane. This trend peaked and reversed in the last century.
In 50, maybe 100 years from now, we will be asking the same questions of Germans, that you are asking in your post – where is your ingenuity???
BTW, some factoids:
1. Majority of the mathematical and physical patents are held by German JEWS in AMERICA (I guess thats what happens when you persecute the intelligent?)
2. The number of patents held by Indians and Chinese, in AMERICA, has grown exponentially over the last 20 years.
3. As the living conditions in their home countries improve, such folks will CHOOSE not to go to America, and you will see the flow of patents from India and China
And, pray tell me, what was the last MAJOR discovery/invention out of Germany in the last 75 years? The US and the UK and Japan have been whipping your butts (ever since all your intelligent people fled to USA). All you guys are good at is process improvement, typically of something that was invented 100 years back. So, puhlease, do not talk of German inventiveness, either.
Cheers
From a longer term view, I think increasing racism against Indians in European countries and America is actually good for us.
Follow my logic here:
1. Racism has always existed in these countries
2. Indian techies (and others) used to tolerate it because they did not have similar opportunities in India
3. But, now, the Indian job market is booooooming, and there are plenty of oppportunities here
4. The standard of living is rising and in many cases, facilities are now comparable or better than that of European cities
5. The cost of living is lower
6. So, the salary level at which the net savings rate becomes equal to that of US or UK is about $20,000 p.a.
7. Given all these, and a home environment, why would any techie want to leave India?
8. But, all the Fortune-500 companies now NEED Indian Techies to run their IT shops
9. So, more work will just flow to India, rather than be onsite
10. Which means that US, UK, Germany no longer get all the tax dollars they were getting from the Indian Techies AND the work has gone to India anyway
11. Can you say, implosion????
We have got them, the suckers. It is now payback period for the last 300 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok Albert – since you are so stuck about inventiveness, and it is clear you are too under-educated to sustain a civilised conversation without letting your inherent prejudices take over your football hooligan self – here it is:
– No one is disputing Germans have been “one of” the more inventive people in this world.
– They are one of Norwegians, Austrians, French, Italians, Hungarians, Russians, Chinese, Americans, British, Persians, Japanese, and yes, Indians. (With apologies to anyone left out.)
– It depends on which slice of time you chose to take out – and how loudly you chose to shout – that any one of these can be taken to be “better”.
– To take the current century, by far the most inventive are Americans. To your stunningly ill-informed piece of faith re their having “stolen” German prowess (will be interesting to hear my American colleagues about a German calling them thieves, hahaha – the same people who literally fed and clothed your father’s generation), pls go back and read your politically incorrect books that most of the scientific / mathematical German/European stock migrating to the US in 1930-50 were the Jews – the same bunch your people would happily otherwise have “finally solved” inventiveness be damned.
– There is NO DOUBT that India is currently NOT the most inventive nation on earth today – by the yardstick of filing scientific patents or taking cutting edge science to market. It seems however that this yardstick matters most to those who are part of a declining economy because they can’t earn enough despite all their inventiveness! We are all like that – when faced with inevitable decline we try to prove we are different and better.
– If you have ever, repeat ever, stopped to think of how inventions happen, you may be stunned to find money plays a big part in it. (Something tells me you are not a numbers person, are you?) A large part of the money that sustains many countries in the Eurozone is the shared past wealth – either earlier colonial plunder or more recently humongous charity in the form of the Marshall plan. So yes, Germany has been ravaged – but know what, you have been given alms like no one else ever has got (this was despite the fact that destruction was a direct result of your homegrown stupidity). Given India a trillion dollars in free money today and I can bet they will equal or better your inventiveness. (Something tells me you are not an economics person either, are you?)
– Now, to come to specifics of India – you have clearly not gone there or read much except in your nationalist press. (1) Indians were being “invited” to Germany to work in IT areas 5 years back because your firms couldn’t find smart and trained enough people – perhaps because you all were too busy inventing stuff rather than work for a living! This has reduced considerably because the general population – you – were either unfriendly or too threatened about their jobs. (2) this is a country which just 60 years back was one of the largest poorest nations on earth – so where they are today is no mean feat.
– Calculus, my friend, is actually not the domain of Europeans today – there are more Asian maths students today in western universities alone than Germans over the whole of last decade! (Go look at numbers, for a change) It is hilarious how far your biases push you over the edge – you must not mention such things in public unless you crave ridicule!
– If your sense of history is limited to comic books re Spartan non-events, I am not sure why you’d want to advertise this lack of education. Enjoy the comics but talk about them only with your skinhead friends! (Something tells me you are not a history person, Albert, are you now?)
– So to rescue the topical from previous posts:
(a) The incident that happened is indeed regrettable – it doesn’t do Germany any favours. The fact is that Asians do not find it comfortable to travel to this country – which by any yardstick is not a sign of a developed nation.
(b) If the Indians did wear “Ruffian” ts or any such paraphernalia, it is indeed stupid. They were either ill-informed or just looking for trouble (no one claimed everyone in India is a math genius, did we!). Their getting bashed up (hopefully not fatal) serves 2 good lessons – one that you shd be careful about local customs, and two that you could encounter local louts in German towns. Neither is different from many countries – including India where if you wore a provocative religious paraphernalia, the rowdys on display will put this proud German – and us – to shame.
(c) The fact that some Indians got beaten up in Germany is news – but not really that significant. Wish it didn’t happen – but it does – as any traveller to any foreign country can tell us. It happens in India, in US, in UK, in Italy, in Russia, in…
Anyway…clearly a conversation can not happen if everyone is accusing the other – so my last visit here.
ps: Correction: No, Germans did not “excel” in Hindu metaphysics – they were a few people and who one of the first to have tried to learn. I am yet to hear of an enlightened German. Going to school, as in your case Albert, doesn’t equate to “excelling”. :))
And, again, who the hell really cares about inventiveness, when you become the largest (or second largest) market in the world? That is like the last cry of a dying civilisation ….. ooooh, look at all our patents, our statues, our pyramids …. you get the idea.
The way I see it is that in about 50-75 years, either most of Europe will be wilderness (already forests are taking over farm lands in Germany) like Africa and South America was at the beginning of the last century or there would have been significant migration from other areas into Europe and whites will be a protected minority community in most countries or EU or whatever.
Hmmmmm, no wonder, so much angst from you, Albert …… They will call you the last of the majority whites. Enjoy!
Cheers
FYI.
Germany flays attack on Indians
24 Aug 2007, 2217 hrs IST,IANS
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Germany_flays_attack_on_Indians/articleshow/2308665.cms
@ Bharat: Thanks for your comments (and the link). I agree with you that it may be better to “investigate the event properly before calling it racism, neo-nazism and bla bla bla.”
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@ Albert: I am amused by your comments.
You show neither the depth of knowledge nor the maturity required to engage in a comparative discussion about cultures and yet you hold forth with great conviction on the history of India, the “caste system”, Indian inventiveness, Chinese inventiveness and world in general.
And of course you continue to persist in your theory about all this being a “grand fabrication” – If you have made up your mind, why bother commenting any more?
Your behaviour is now verging on “trolling” (see here in case you are curious: http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=trolling&i=53181,00.asp ) and I will not let this continue on my blog beyond a point.
So, you are welcome to continue commenting – but not if you continue in the same vein.
For a change, do read what Preeti (@ #37), Patriot (@ #41) and HerrTickler (@ #43) have to say in response to your points – more importantly, THINK about the points that they have made.
***
@ Patriot: Welcome to the site and thanks for your comments. Racism (or latent racism) amongst Indians is as reprehensible as with anyone else…I agree that it exists to a degree…and I agree that “While we seek to reform others, we should try and reforms ourselves, as well”
The whole issue about caste-based discrimination calls for a separate post – It is just too big an issue to be covered in a comment. But yes, it is a problem and it must be addressed.
P.S. Nice one at #42!
***
@ Preeti, HerrTickler: Thanks for making some robust points in the discussion…and for some very thoughtful remarks. I really do not have much toa dd beyond what you both said so eloquently.
***
All: Pl. continue to use civil language. Let passion not get the better of reason! Thanks.
Had no idea this was someone’s blog. I arrived at this site via a link from Spiegel and thought it was part of their offerings. It seems the blog’s owner has defined me as a “troller,” and promised to regect future comments that would be in the same “vein,” as made earlier. I must admit to be taken a little aback; so much so, that I hereby submit my withdrawal notice, and allow the discussion to go on among those with like-mindedness and agreement, which is what everyone, besides myself, seems to be.
Thank you for your chilling warning, B. Shanatu.
Albert: “Chilling warning”? – Are you serious?!
This blog is very loosely moderated – that should tell you something, right?
At the same time, I do not wish to waste my readers time by letting half-baked comments come in the way of an intelligent discussion.
Pl. let me repeat:
1. If you have made up your mind about something, why bother commenting any more?
2. Your behaviour is now verging on “trolling”. Note “verging on” – which implied I am willing to give you some margin.
3. You are welcome to continue commenting – but not if you continue in the same vein.
4. For a change, do read what Preeti (@ #37), Patriot (@ #41) and HerrTickler (@ #43) have to say in response to your points – more importantly, THINK about the points that they have made.
But if you have already decided to submit your “withdrawal notice” (whatever that means), you are of course free to do so.
Good luck.
P.S. The name is Shantanu NOT Shanatu
Okay, Shantanu, and very sorry for the misspelling … nothing ill intended there whatsoever. I have much else to state and offer up. Perhaps my insights appear too over-the-top for what appears to be a very orthodox group (nothing ill intended by this comment either — just my impression). Some in the group are very prone to personal attack. I avoid this behavior entirely and am pleased that you have issued a warning about this — not that I can’t put up a good defense, but for the sake of preserving a dignified atmosphere.
I do know more than I might seem to about various cultures, but the format is a little confined in space to elaborate. Instead, I like to summarize my findings, and believe me, there are others of note who agree, and I emphasize “of note.”
I haven’t much time at the moment, but I have some thoughts regarding rice and data bases. I’ll elaborate later, and hope to make a light bulb go on for those Indians who might wonder how they got stuck in such miserable jobs and displeasing lifestyles (it is no wonder to me, that they display such resentment toward Germans and Germany.)
Would also like to state that a discussion will die with too much agreement and will be vibrant and challenging when there is disagreement, as long as the ad hominem attacks are left out.
Further, there needs to be a effort to read and comprehend. I stated earlier that Germans had excelled in researching Hindu metaphysics. What came back was statement that quoted me as saying it was the Germans who excelled in Hindu metaphysics. Oh well, but I’m not sure there is yet an understanding of what invention is or its implications.
Anyway, enough for now. Here is a rule to follow given by a great Euro-American industrialist: “Never explain, and never complain.” I always try to keep this in mind.
@ Albert: No offence taken and thanks for maintaining the civility of the discussion.
However a comparative discussion of cultures is a very complex, subjective and in a way, somewhat pointless subject and I am not even sure this is the right forum to discuss it.
You may be aware of “various cultures” and their characteristics but as you have yourself noted, “the format is a little confined in space to elaborate”
Agree wholeheartedly.
I am reiterating what I said in my comment #29:
“I think we should draw a line under this particular aspect of the discussion. After all, the post was not about Germany or India or even racism but mainly about Indian media.”
So in the interest of a sensibly moderated discussion, I would encourage everyone to stick to the point (which may be a bit hard for you in particular, assuming you may not be familiar with the state of media in India)
Separately, you are free to email me your thoughts/findings etc on this subject but please note that I do not take racism lightly and I absolutely reject any notion of any particular community, group, nation or race (and I include caste here) being more accomplished or “better”than anyone else.
Enough on this aspect for now.
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@ All:
I do not like to delete comments but I may be forced to do so if we find ourselves straying too far from the topic in hand.
If you have strong and particular views about cultural comparison between Germany and India (or accomplishments of Indians and Germans), please email me separately.
Thanks.
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Enough has been said about this aspect. Pl. read what I requested in my comment # 50 above – stick to the point.
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Enough has been said about this aspect. Pl. read what I requested in my comment # 50 above – stick to the point.