Join the discussion on Islam, Hindutva, Dr Zakir Naik – Part II

It might be that the belief in a higher power is merely a genetic predisposition and that our religious concepts of God are merely the result of a collective delusion. Having said that, what would motivate a people to have an idea of God as a powerful, venegeful, punitive being who is always angry. Why would anyone want to believe in this joyless one who hates music and dance (not to mention sex). Why would we want to be in heaven with this eternal judgemental father figure whose love is so conditional that it lacks the magnanimity of the love even a human being has for his own child.

*** COMMENT EDITED ***
…
A fair way to judge a religion is by the way they live. All Muslim countries are intolerant of non-Muslims and are distinguished by the violence that they perpetrate on others and each other. Compare this with the gentle Hindus who made the only Hindu country in the world a secular one (Nepal)and have encourage Muslims to become a dominant minority in India even as the Hindus are almost wiped out in Pakistan. It is high time that Muslims thought of reforming their religion.

*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

Mahendra: I am happy to re-instate the deleted bit once you provide a link or a reference.

I do not claim to be an expert on the scriptures but I am descerning enough to know the difference what offers hope and what perpetuates misery. It is certainly true as said in the Old Testament that the Jews in their hour of victory put many to the sword. Sometimes it was with divine backing and others without. At any rate, their God was forgiving to them. For a people who God is claimed to have created in his image and his chosen people, it shines forth in their vast contribution to every endeavour in human history because such favour does not come without great responsibility. They number no more than an insignificant few million of the worlds population: the world would indeed be an insignificant and very poor place without them. As one Hindu out of near a billion of my religious affectation, I am truely humbled: all our claims for greatness as a civilisation in relation are insigniifcant and that is no less true for Islam’s modest achievements. I do not doubt the capacity of Islam to wreck vengence on the great Jewish people and their nation. If Islam is as great as it claims to be, that it is an idea that should never have entered their heads. We shall know when Iran’s election results are out how much reason and good sense have prevailed in at least one Islamic country. It can certainly be said of the Koran that it contains beautiful passages. Surely, it is the message that is important: the bearing of the Jewish people is testiment to their message of goodwill. The Jewish people never claimed that any divine hand wrote their book but it is a record of their dialogue with their God. It is not surprising either that Jesus should have been produced by the Jewish people. As with the old testiment, the new testiment is a product of many great minds. The magnificance of the Greek mind is reflected in it, and it is as perfect a religion that the world has produced for liberating the worlds peoples from all manner of evils. For me as a Hindu, the rigid prescription of orthadox Hindu thought and practice have been rendered obsolete by these sismic sift in world history. What is absolutely clear to me is that we should determine the core values of our religion which we want to preserve and strenghten. At its heart should be felicity towards our co-religionists and social intercourse that aims to strengthen our society. Difficult choices will have to be made.

Thanks for enlighting me Mahendra. What I see today in the Hindu today is that our Hindu religion has helped very little to make him or her want to work for a better Bharat for his co-religionists. I would settle any day for a dedication to the improvement of the daily lot of the Hindu in particular even at the expense of dedication to any universal cause and messgae. The Shankarcharya’s message seems little different to the dedication shown by Jesuit priests in their missionary work. There is a huge gulf between the missionary work of such Christians which have worked for an all round improvement is the conditions of their converts and achievement of our work. There is no doubt about the good work done by Hindu charities but it seems that all such Hindu endeavours are done in the absence of comprehending the whole picture of the nation. It seems that Christianity and Islam do not lose sight of their lofty aims. Poverty, deprivation and above all ignorance endemic in Hindus of India has opened it up to all manner of assaults on the Indan state. I expect this government to renew the assault on one institution that has stayed true to Hindus: the armed forces. My message to it is that they do so at the peril.

I am going to be as charitable as it posible for me to be. The Jesuit does not confine himself just to preaching the message of his religion. Their movements founder saw God in all things and therefore dedicated his life to excelling in all things in their lives. Their schools, hospitals and unviersites are dotted all over the world as a testiment to their good work: that sort of work truely transformed West so that poverty and ignorance is absent from it. I may be being simplistic in believing that advaita sees reality no differently: so why is it that we havee failed to progress? Is it because despite believing in very similar philosophical ideas, we have embraced a mechanistic reality against the west’s moral one? The answer simply is that in the Pope, the West found an officer who was willing to bridge the gap between the politcal world intent on profit and exploitation and Christian religious beliefs which wanted so much to relieve suffering. When Jesuits say that you can only reach God through Jesus, they are only repeating Jesus’s own words and that message is at the core of Christian teaching. As I understand it, Christianity is forgiving of any sinner who has repented, and that is predicated on a God who is concerned with human suffering. As far as I can see we Hindus have to pay a heavy price because we are born in to a life of poverty, and then suffer a million or more births if we are to redeem ourselves: if it is so frightning to contemplate such a fate, it soon loses the hold of any but the weakest of our society. Firmness of our religious beliefs and institutions have suffered as a consequence. If for the rest of humanity one life is more than sufficient, we should settle on only on the reincarnation of our Gods as being more than adequate for our religious purposes. The Buddists hold no or little store in reincarnation, so it is hardly the most radical departure might choose to make in Hinduism. Our primary focus should be to bring the best out of our religion, so I am not even going to consider trying to change Muslim behaviour. A great deal can be said against the Muslim madarsas, but they have offered to Muslims universally an education even if it has been a study of their religious scriptures. I see no comparable Hindu effort because the desirability of affording any Hindu education in their religion is considered undesirable or unnecessary. We know the Indian state has failed them, but should our religion fail them too? That failure means that Hindu pupils are now enrolling in madrasas fundeded by the Hindu tax payer! We should not then be surprised when Islam’s appeal will grow on them because of very serious lapse on our part. At the heart of the problems we have as Hindus is that the Indian state has absolved itself of all responsibility for our well being and not least because for all the spirituality we claim as a people, it has been superficial at best. If my comments make you angry enough to sit up and take notice, I would have achieved the first part of my objective. The second is that I want your dedication to make a difference to the life of all Hindus because it is right and your duty to our country and religion.

woman no rights in islam???????????

Ummmmm, Georgina … you say:

“it came in arabic was memorised in arabic and is still learned in arabic what argument can you offer that”

How about poor memory? Poor interpretation? Poor writing skills? Poor copying skills from one manuscript to another?

Finally, how about if the relevation was (gasp) in Farsi, and the prophet translated it in his head?

Lots of doubts, in my opinion.

Cheers

@Dirt Digger

The British when they first came to India found that Hindus on the promise of rice and food being distribted did convert, but as soon as it was convenient converted back. The British then were seen as occupiers and people found the greatest comfort in the religion of their forefathers.

The conversion activity that is being carried out in India is in an altogether contexr. At the forefront are Indian converts and not the British. They are able to call on a community of like believers in the world who are willing to make investments in the other things to matter them as human beings: schools, hospitals, jobs and a sense of identity which honours them as human beings. Hindus cannot rely on the Indian state for delivery on any of these things and for that it stands as a failed Hindu state.

A beginning has to be made by Hidnuism not oppressing other fellow Hindus by any failed Hindu practice such as caste. Even as the state has failed the poor Hindus, they need to assume responsibility for their uplift. The only way to do that is by assuming the leavers of state power, and in that their failure has been equally abject. Of course this is what we are trying to do in our discussions, that is to address our faulures.

@DD
I do not mean to harp on about caste but it is symptomatic of all that is wrong.

I am right in thinking that the RSS has not been caste centric but its approach to the Hindu religion has been to stay clear of it including even Islam. In fact it was the inclusiveness of other faiths in the RSS that created the first fissures with Savarkar. On the other hand, the VHP is so orthadox that it does not dare to challenge or care to reform the worst practices in Hinduism. Now I come to the BJP if its latest pronouncements are to be believed will move it even further than the RSS to the left. That is an area so over-subscribed that I am sceptical of any success in that approach.

In essence the Sangh’s positions are spread so wide that they have no coherence. All that it will lead to as has been made abundantly clear is further internal feuds as to who best represents the Hindus. Quite frankly, none of them do so with any conviction, strength of purpose or foresight.
I hope in these discussions we can not only go beyond them by arriving at a view poit that we can all share but strike out a path that will inspire many more to follow with us.

The machinations you speak is not possible were it not for the disarray in the ranks of the Hindus and what it stands for. Hindus like other ancient societies have assumed that incorporating the Gods of their conquered enemies increased their power. There are no deities in Islam and Christianity but whole packages to be accepted or rejected which would render the precedings relevant. Hindus of the orthadox school (they mean by that they pagan) have decried that the world’s religion was truely Hindu until they were brutally suprressed by Christianity and Islam. As for Christianity in its early days because it was rent with ethnic and racial divisions (as Hinduism is today) it imposed brutal singular control. Those divisions were totally eliminated. European kings made those decision based on what was best for governance and they were proved right.

The Indian state cannot now what European kings did over the preceding 2,000 nor can it stand on the present state of Hinduism and governance of the country. In this I do not have any wish to supplant the BJP, RSS and the VHP but for the Indian state to inherentlty subscribe to a Hinduism as its foundation that is rational and better able to stand up to close scrutiny. Under such a polity, the present constitution has to make way to a constitutional monarchy headed by a Hindu king. Government by the republic which is the present instrument of government in India cannot decisively reset the muddle that presently exists.

as the national religion that is rooted in more rational construct than it is as present.

@ Georgina:

“Farsi?????????? some proof, evidence ect please”
God told me that she dictated the Quran in Farsi. The prophet made a mess of the translation.

“why would God give this task to the Prophet???? ”
Unfortunately, she refused to tell me this. I will ask her again the next time I speak with her”

“Quran sura(15:9)”Surely, We have revealed this reminder and lo, We verily are its Guardian.” ”
Who is We? God told me that she was singular.

“now who would you be to question God????”
Given that she has been telling me that the prophet made a hash of his job (pun intended), I thought I would bring it to your notice.

Cheers

One small para to summarize Judaism, Christianity and Islam

All these religion originated from deserted region where food etc was scarce due to absence water for farming. The area was inhabited by barbaric nomads who had to fight for whatever little desert could offer. Anybody who had to rule over barbaric nomads had to have great strength to kill all others or have some sort of mental superiority. The area knew nothing but dominance by great warriors of rome and greek civilizations, by brute force, the only language these people could understand. First thinkers to unite some flocks came to be known later as Jews but they had some sensibility so wrote a book to define what is good life and how a person should behave etc. They were sensible people and didn’t impede freedom of speech. Quite possible, someone hungry for power (rebel) had to do something better than the Jew book. Comes in Bible, collection of writings of four people which doesn’t tally anywhere. Again the same monolithic teaching governing all aspects of life… How to think, how to walk etc. The main thing it exploited for superiority was concept of washing of SINS, which these people were habitual to anyways. The propagator (mark, samuel etc) of the book to have flock of his own couldn’t rely on hebrew text so he may have taken borrowed the script from other flock and would have asked someone else to write it. Seeing the success of this book, some other power hungry person would have written a book with more perfection… Out comes Islam with a book whose lingo is most probably of a tribal bunch of nomads whom the founder wanted to influence in order to rule. His experiments continued and it contained all provisions that would ensure the superiority of book interpreter over the warrior. There is a possibility that the experiment would have been repeated more often but ultimately these three books survived and they have common things like creation, prophet etc all borrowed from Jews and Jerusalem, the center of power and universe of these religion. So Israel prblem solved. Israel is of Jews. It doesn’t belong to Christians and Muslims.

Mentally and philosophically, people of these religion are still in infancy and all they can do is debate what is the right and what is the wrong interpretation. Despite having the only book Zakir Naik has to come out and tell what is the right meaning of book… Question is does he even know what is the right meaning of book? Why doesn’t he go and tell his interpretation to Mullah Omar, Bhaitulah Mehsood and their lineages? Most probably becaise he would be dead even before he is able to say Allah is Great!

Now coming down to Naved, his book, his sharia perfection etc. As one great person Az says, “The Humor of Islam…you’ll die laughing.” The title is a twist on an Islamic Sharia law that forbids laughing too much…which made me laugh too much. I used actual ancient texts, I didn’t make them funny, they’ve always been funny…hence the sharia laughing law.

http://www.thehumorofislam.com/

Naved doesn’t even have freedom to think and act beyond the book. Naved in other words is slave. His thought process has stopped to develop. All he can do is think about the book and how to make it more scientific. He cannot appreciate the fact that thought process like that of he himself, didn’t create any peace in world, not even in Islamic world. In order to throw out a UAE government all a person needs to do is create and illusion of interpretation of Koran, excite person to indulge in act of genocide. The next person who has to throw out the same person has to do more rigid act of genocide, macabre preaching. Afghanistan government got thrown out by Taliban due to this only. To throw out a Taliban, one needs to advocate more genocide, more violence, from the same book. Pakistan is also fighting the same situation. So at end of day all this book can do is create more and more fanatics with their fanatical theories.

Thought process of common sense flourishes when there is no influence of anger, pain, love, sex, power etc. and this thought process doesn’t come by reading books of slavery.

Thanks Shantanu! The article is an eyeopener.

Shantanu your questions have been answered by the sword of Islam for the last 1400 years and continue to be answered dramatically in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan even as we you raise the question. Answer is a violent ‘No’ to all your questions. The only remedy for world peace is now to wean young people away from Islam by education in universal human values. Many organizations in the world, I am happy to note, have begun work in this direction.

Read yourself what the preachers (read Mullahs) of religion of PEACE are spreading.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/10/michigan-islamic-leader-killed-during-gun-battle-with-feds.html

I’m (not) shocked.

Jai Hind!

“Dr.Zakir Naik’s fraud exposed”

I recommend the following link to the readers:
http://agniveer.com/naikexposed/

You will be surprised to find there how Dr.Naik plagiarised from a book published in 1936 by Maulana Abdul Haque Vidyarthi titled“Muhammad in World Scriptures”!!

This Abdul Haque Vidyarthi belongs to Ahamadiyya Muslim cult
which almost the entire Muslim world, and especially the sects which believe in ideology of Dr Zakir Naik considers as non-Muslim. They are in fact banned in Pakistan and many other countries. Ask any Muslim scholar, and he would start hurling abuses on them for disgracing Islam and Muhammad.

The points that Ashish has raised need serious consideration. All the doubts about all religions stem from the fact that all religions have some myths. But most followers of every religion believe that their myths are true while that of others are false.All myths – Ram is God, Christ is son of God, Mohammed is prophet of God etc – are to be understood as metaphors directing their respective people towards fulfillment of life. The ultimate truth is there is one Supreme Reality and this world is His manifestation that is called Maya or God’s play. If people realize this truth the world peace will follow.

Ashish,
DISCLAIMER: I did not follow your debate FTI thread, I am only considering the points you raised in this post, so if you find anything out of context, my apologies in advance.
Broadly speaking, your last post relies on two central arguments:
1. Themes shown in Bible, Qur’an and Ramayana/Mahabharata are simply not believable given our knowledge of nature of world/universe. Most of us do not question them as we are led to believe in them from childhood.
2. The observation that, today, Hindus (at least the “fanatic” ones) are not any better than those who talk about Muslims or Christians.

Now, I am giving you following points for consideration:
1. Ramayana/Mahabharata does not constitute Hindu Dharma solely. Those who consider this history, agree that it may have occurred so many millennium ago, that practically no architectural proof would sustain them. Even if it is considered to be history, consider the many years of hyperbole and poetic licenses. For example, some critics of “Ramcharit Manas” (like BR Ambedkar, I can not remember where I read it) pointed out that in the original Valmiki Ramayana, Valmiki wrote that when Rama was invited in an Ashram of a sage, the sage welcomed him using the meat of veal. Since I do not know enough Sankritam, I can not confirm this. But knowing that Ambedkar was not JL nehru or Romila Thapar, I can not distrust him either. The point, however, is not whether Rama ate the veal or not. The point is that every translator added their own poetic licenses over time and since these books are very old, only few can verify stuff against the originals.
2. In our Puranas, a technique is over-used. Using mind-numbing themes, complex ideas are explained. The root of this technique is a concept called “Rupaka” in “Alankara Sastra”. For example, 10 heads of Ravana signifies the fact that he knew (or could remember) four Vedas and six Upanishada. Once again, I do not know a lot to write a long note on this, but I hope this answers some of the “things that is hard to believe”. What is Rupaka and what is not, is real hard to determine. Sandeep B wrote a pretty long post related to this in here:
http://www.sandeepweb.com/2010/03/16/symbolism-and-literalism/
3. Religion like Christianity or Islam are all about scriptures, Dharma is not. It was a way of life. So what is the book that provides all the thumb rules of Dharma? None. This article below attempts to decipher the many facets of our Dharma and what kind of literature provides what facets (look at the chart)
http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2006/02/follow-up-on-manusmriti-to-my-article-in-outlook-india.htm
4. Let us come to point 2. RSS is not an organisation dedicated to rioting or killing minorities (in fact, their vision never included a Hindu bharat, but they never agreed to Muslim appeasement). I am not a RSS member. RSS got some people issues and PR issues, but, if they are Hindu chauvinists, they would not create sister organizations like Rastravadi Muslim Manch, Rastriya Sikh Sangat or Bharat Tibet Parivar. This, however, does not mean that people like Pramod Muthalik are not active, but if you want to save yourself from Indian media’s biltzkreig of mis-information, you have to differentiate between them.
5. Finally, let us come to the temple issue. A person who knows something about Hindu Dharma, knows that existence of the temple or idols are not central to our Dharma. This is exactly opposite in most sects of the Christianity or Islam. So during Muslim rule, temple after temples are broken and idols are mined for gold in the hope that this was how the indigenous religions can be destroyed (and true enough, Buddhism was eliminated except in far away places like Tibet or Nepal or Bhutan). This action, however, did nothing except creating irreconcilable gaps between the communities. Ayodhya is a holy site for us, a temple, at least as good as Akshardham should exist there to offer our respect to the birth-land of Rama and this need not be built in place of the mosque.
The legend of Ayodhya is ours, but it appears that only Thais care ( http://www.amazing-thailand.com/Ayuthaya.html ). A great civilisation is not something that destroys, it creates monuments that last for centuries. The destruction of the mosque was an action of pure vandalism and as we found, it was well calculated to allow another group of highly corrupt people to assume power. If a community can not assert it’s existence by building a monument of respect without walking on the rights of some other people, then this community should not exist at all.

@Sid, am sorry I didn’t really get the point you are trying to make. I see that your first couple of points seem to suggest that we can not take these books as historical facts. Your 4th point poses two arguments in favour of and against “RSS as radical organisation” claim and the 5th point is in support of a Ram temple at Ayodhya without removing the Mosque. But I can’t logically connect these points together. Sorry I am not criticizing you (I am sure I haven’t been able to grasp it) but please could you give me a brief synopsis of your overall argument?

@Kaffir – I gather you either aren’t a big fan of Ayn Rand or aren’t a big fan of reading books (or both)! But please don’t make an assumption that I’ve read only a book or two (as a voracious reader, I find that insulting!) and that Ayn Rand has somehow influenced my critical thinking! (btw, Ayn Rand didn’t has as much problem with religion as she had with altruism!) So yes, reading books is a good thing and it has shaped my personality to a certain extent (I am hugely influenced by Paulo Coelho!).

To answer your first point, yes I think people who believe in such stories are delusional. You couldn’t really believe in a creature with an elephant’s head and a human body or in a person who could turn water into wine! But I agree with you that no one should have a problem if someone has imaginary friends. I don’t oppose that.

On to your second point – again a big assumption that I claim to be the only rational person. I’ve come across many who managed to question the unquestionable, who managed to think critically. So yes, I am not the only “smartypants” and I am glad about that!

Again, can’t help but say this to conclude – please don’t jump to conclusions about people you don’t know. If I ever get a chance, I would love to invite you to see my personal books collection. I am very proud of it!

Ashish, stories are not delusional; they are mataphoric and they help many in finding fulfillment. But I do notice that while you were vocal in implied criticism of Ganesha and Christ but you were afraid of putting Mohammed’s ride to Heaven in the same category!

Amazingly, it is only Hinduism which passes the test of even your controversial heroine, Ayn Rand. It is only Hinduism which encourages individuals to find their own contentment by following yoga, work for the good of the world and use reasoning to acquire knowledge. On the other hand Christianity and Islam are based on faith and feelings as source of knowledge which Ayn Rand rejects completely.

You may be proud of your personal book collection but storage of medicines does not make one a Doctor. You have to study them analytically in the light of recorded History to arrive at conclusions which will help you in leading a right life. May I suggest you add to your collection – or borrow from a library, as I do – Story of Civilization by Will Durant, Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley and The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. You will then be ready to imbibe the philosophy of Shankara from his Vivekchudamani.

HAF action alert on Kashmiri Hindus, please sign and let others know:

http://www.change.org/hafsite/petitions/view/urge_congress_to_support_h_res_1601_-_condemn_human_rights_violations_against_kashmiri_pandits

I have stayed in Mud Hut coated with Cow Dung and it has excellent properties to retain the right temperature in all seasons and is free from flies and mosquitoes.

BJP, one more question.

If France’s law is “thinly concealed racism” – even thought there were Muslim ministers who were in favor of this law, what is Shar’ia law – practiced in numerous countries – that not only makes a clear distinction between Muslims (superior) and non-Muslims (eh, don’t really care), with Muslims accorded much more rights than non-Muslims, but puts it into practice?

@Bhagwad Jal Park

It is because of security reasons they have ban Burqa. One can only see eyes and no part of face which hides the physical identity of the person and not an easy task to communicate.

My views are, Cow is sacred because of humble and peaceful animal. Cow has choices to eat what he likes but will only eat veg fodder.

Jal Park… Ethics of Tiger. I’m interested in ethics of a spider’s web garden. As I imagine, I am… Thanks Park! It needs to go down as dope of week… Ethics of Tiger

@BJP

How societies care for the welfare of their animals is a measure of how advanced they are as a nation. That is purely a question of ethics because no right thinking people would want to inflict needless pain on animals. In the UK there are very heavy penalties on people who do just that from jail terms to fines.

Even the UK draws a line at preserving the lives of animals. Countless dogs or put down because they have no homes. In India they wander as strays and suffer neglect and abuse. Much the same fate awaits the cow past its useful economic life for which homes are provided by animal welfare charities. Hindu religious sentiment baulks at utilizing for economic benefit as food and for the leather industries. That would make sense for a wealthy economy like the UK which does not make the same choice as India seems to make as regards their cows. When India’s people in many cases are in no better condition than the afflicted cows, this is a policy no sane Indian government should be pursuing. Obviously politics and religion has interceded to skew the argument for the policy that is now pursued.

There is a fundamental issue at the root of the matter. The other major religions of the world make a very clear distinction between the reason with which God has endowed mankind and absented from the animal kingdom. Should Hindus in the 21st century continue to endow the cow and other animals with godly qualities and want to appear ridiculous in the eyes of the world? The highest qualities of Hinduism enjoins Hindus to be free by acknowledging the truth. Which other religion has the epitaph “God is Truth”. Ethics as regards the humane treatment of animals is truth enough for me without importing religious doctrines and sentiments into the issue when they are clearly not necessary.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/indian-linked-to-alqaeda-plot-unearthed-in-canada/129611-2.html?from=tn

An Al-Qaeda-linked terror plot was unearthed by Canadian security agencies on Wednesday, with one of the suspects reportedly hailing from India.

Though police didn’t name the suspects, one of them is said to be 36-year-old Misbahuddin Ahmed who worked as an X-ray technologist at an Ottawa hospital. Reports quoted sources as saying that Ahmed comes from India.

Regarding the following verses brought into the picture by Mohammad Ali:

In the mean time what is your opinion on the following verses of the Holy Gita:

�If however, you do not fight this religious war, then you will certainly incur sin, for neglecting your duties, and thus lose your reputation as a fighter�. [Bhagavad Gita 2:33]

�Considering your specific duty as a Kshatriya, you should know that there is no better engagement for you than fighting on religious principles, so there is no need for hesitation.� [Bhagavad Gita 2:33]

Wrong translation!

Krishna advocates fighting for dharma, dharmic principles, and some moron translated “dharma” as “religion” and now mohammad ali is using the wrong translation to imply that the Bhagavad Gita was advocating some kind of religious war like the Quran does.

Krishna is not asking Arjuna to wage war against Jains, Buddhists and Christians or Jews, but fight for dharma and against adharmic people.

There is no need to bring in any kind of context here. The verse is clear by itself, asking people to fight on the basis of dharmic principles.

Is Mohammad Ali trying to say there is no Jihad in Islam? This is a strange kind of Islam, and he must be the only person who believes in it.