“Are we heading towards a Christian India?” – excerpts
Excerpts from a slightly dated but still relevant article by Francois Gautier: “Are we heading towards a Christian India?“.
“I am a westerner and a born Christian. I was mainly brought up in catholic schools, my uncle, Father Guy Gautier, a gem of a man, was the parish head of the beautiful Saint Jean de Montmartre church in Paris…There are certain concepts in Christianity I am proud of : charity for others, the equality of system in many western countries, ‘message of love and compassion’.
Yet, I am a little uneasy when I see how much Christianity is taking over India under the reign of Sonia Gandhi : according to a 2001 census, there are about 2.34 million Christians in India ; not even 2,5% of the nation, a negligible amount. Yet there are today five Christian chief ministers in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kerala and Andhra Pradesh.
One should add that the majority of politicians in Sonia Gandhi’s closed circle are either Christians or Muslims…Ambika Soni…is General Secretary of the Congress and a very powerful person, with close access to Sonia Gandhi…Oscar Fernandes…Margaret Alwa…AK Anthony…Valson Thampu (a Hindu hater, is Chairman NCERT curriculum Review Committee)…John Dayal, another known Hindu baiter, has been named by Sonia Gandhi in the National Integration Council…and Kancha Ilaya…is being allowed by the Indian Government to lobby with the UN and US Congress so that caste discrimination in India is taken-up by these bodies.
…since she (Sonia Gandhi) is at the top, Christian conversions in India seem to have gone in overdrive.
More than 4,000 foreign Christian missionaries are involved in conversion activities across different states.
In Tripura, there were no Christians at independence, there are 120.000 today, a 90% increase since 1991.
The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there were only 1710 Christians in 1961, but 1,2 million today, as well as 780 churches!
In Andhra Pradesh, churches are coming-up every day in far flung villages and there was even an attempt to set-up one near Tirupati.
…In Kerala, particularly in the poor coastal districts, you find “miracle boxes” put in local churches: the gullible villager writes out a paper mentionning his wish: a fising boat, a loan for a pukka house, fees for the son’s schooling. And lo, a few weeks later, the miracle happens ! …During the Tsunami, entire dalit villages in Tamil Nadu were converted to Christianity with the lure of money.
…The other day I was at the Madras Medical center, the foremost heart hospital in Madras. Right when you enter the lobby, you find a chapel, inviting everybody to pray, there are pictures and quotations of Christ everywhere and a priest visits all the patients, without being invited at all.
Educational institutes and orphanages run by Christian organisations have become big business…
schools…force their pupils, mostly Hindus, to say Christian prayers every day and attend mass. They are constantly fed anti Hindu slogans and biases under different forms, whether it is in history books, or discourses by priests during religious classes.
…In my country, France, a Christian majority nation , it would be unthinkable to have Hindus – or even Indian born French for that matter – in so many positions of power.
Impossible also to find a non-elected, non French, non-Christian person being the absolute ruler of the country behind the scene as Sonia Gandhi is in India.
Indians like to say that the greatness of India is that it accepts a foreigner and a Christian like Sonia Gandhi. But is’nt it rather a weakness, and an aberration ? Can’t we find a worthy leader amongst one billion Indians ?
This is an India where you see today Swami Avimukteshwarananda Saraswati of Dwarka Peeth, made to disembark from an Indian Airlines flight for carrying his holy dand, a thin bamboo stick which is a symbol of their spiritual designation, inside the aircraft cabin (See here).
Are we heading then towards a Christian India under Sonia Gandhi’s helm? It would be a tremendous loss not only to India, but also to the world….”
See also:
On Kandhamal, Conversions and Proselytization
Why are Christian Missionaries targeting India – III
Why are Christian Missions targetting India? – II
Why have Missionaries chosen to attack India?
“Scariest Movie of the Year*?”
and finally, Francois Gautier on Conversions
“Vinaash kaale vipreet buddhi.”
How else can we explain this ?
We can be any thing not Hindu even if we are & say the same than we are fundamentalist & not secular,
At least we should be Indian that also does not happen,
We may be Kashmiri, Punjabi,Haryanvi, Gujrati,Parsi, sindhi bla bla bla
Unless we become again a self-respeting nation, unless we recover the ways enjoined by the perenial tenets of the Sanatana Dharma, unless we make a deeper atama samarpana to our ageless knowledge & remould ourselves & our national life by that light we shall be condemend to live through the above situations. It is only the contact with that deeper source of strength that can give us the power to uproot adharma & resist it.
On a similar topic on another blog, I was reading the comments section and someone pointed out that in many of the states, Hindus were becoming a minority! And the response to that was a sarcastic: “So that is bad?”
What more can one say?
It’s a status symbol for parents (mostly Hindus) to educate children their children in Convent schools. Isn’t that the first step towards belief in christanity in elite society. Poor hindus convert for money but what about the upper class hindus???
People get converted easily- they come under superficial charm of christians. Some are weak, they get easily attracted and enchanted. True Hindu will never give heed to those charlatans. Some gets influence because they lack faith in their own religion as they were not shown how to become true Hindu.
Converted christians show off that we are different from you(Hindu) or may be uplifted and modern. On the contrary they look more backward and outdated in many aspect. I have found that converted people are more harmful rather than missionaries. Because they are fed with wrong attitudes which has led them in conversion. Be careful with all of them out there.
Hinduism has remedies for all the problems. We have Ganesh Mantras, Laxmi mantras, Vidhya Mnatras.
If Hindu doesnot take help of all this mantras, slokas and little prayer to all dieties, who to blame? Slokas and Mantras has all that power but one needs to be doing all these. Anyone can improve their financial, educational and living ststus through this prayers on daily basis.
What is christianity?- the same prayers and visiting church. Nothing new.
Charlatans are smart, they knows the very basic nature of human beings of feeling helpless. Everyone needs help to show them how to do prayers, how to remain clean, etc etc… Charlatans are showing them the same thing what is also described in Hinduism. The difference is there is no one around from Hindu community to come to them and give them simple liitle help. So they take the help of this Charlatans and get converted.
Christians and Muslims are getting success only because our Hindu Leaders , Hindu Saints , Shankaracharyas , Hindu Organisations like RSS , VHP , BJP , ABVP , Shiv Sena and all other so called claim to be superior hindus or Brahmins who are leaders of every top Hindu Organisations are doing nothing but enjoying fruits of power and all facilities.
99% of all saints , shankaracharyas , gurus , kathavachaks , RSS Leaders are all brahmins . They believe in casteism and promote only brahminism and policies in favour of brahmins to get power.They try and divide Hindus into SC ,ST , OBC , MBC , BC, Dalits ,etc and try to sit on their top and dictate them.Anybody try to challenge evil varna vyavastha , caste hierrachy with brahmins at the top ………are sidelined by brahmins and they make sure that the person is crushed.
Brahmins try and manipulate all the top posts in Hindu Organisations and abuse it. They have no guts or balls to stand in front of Jehadis or Missionaries.
Only One Italian Sonia Maino is more powerful than all Brahmins in India. She is taking over India for Christianity.
India is destroyed because of fragments in Hindu Society.
This fragmentation is due to Caste , Varna and Jati differences.
Not all Brahmins are bad and casteist but those who are at top posts in Hindu Organisations and Hindu Religious Authorities are highly casteist . They even opposed Great Hindu Reformer Maharishi Dayanand Saraswati while he was try to unite Hindu Socirty by abolishing all caste and jatis.
The Brahmins of Kashi stoned and chased him………
After analysing , I came to conclusion that Brahmins are the majority who support the evil caste and jati vyavastha.
If Brahmins leave their arrogance , pride , casteism and brahminism and support Real Hindutva and Nationalism , They will rule India forever……………
Support Hindutva , that is from Heart , Mind and Actions .
Not like BJP / RSS / VHP support for Hindutva only when election comes and ” Mandir wahin banayenge “……” Saugandh Ram ki Khatey hain “.
I was in RSS for 41 years and have seen casteism and Brahminism at every step.
Either destroy castes and save India
or let India be destroyed by Jehadis and Missionaries and after that no Hindus , No India , No caste , no Brahmin.
So better destroy Castes and Jatis and only and only
support Hindutva and Nationalism
I am Hindu first and Hindu last.
To live every moment of my life to serve Bharatmata and
sacrifice my life when time comes to defend Bharatmata.
Jai Hindu Rashtra.
Jai Hind
Jai Bhavani.
Krishna: Something you wrote struck a chord:
“To live every moment of my life to serve Bharatmata and sacrifice my life when time comes to defend Bharatmata”
Thank you for the comment. As you have rightly said, casteism is the one thing that stands in the way of uniting us …and unless we get rid of that, there can be no meaningful Hindu identity…only Brahmins, Kshatriyas and Dalits…
While on this, please read my comment (# 12) and others on this post:
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/05/01/periyar-against-brahminism-not-brahmins/#comments
Also see this post: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/04/19/shameful-and-inexcusable/
Shantanu Bhai ,
Apke Charnon main sadar naman. Aap jaise Hindus ki vajah se hi Yeh Dharam , Desh aur Sabhyata Ka astitva hai.
You should start any Organisation or Group to save India..
I have seen the zeal , courage , intellect and credibility of a real Hindu.
I wish you were Majority PM of India for 20 years.
Akela chana bhad nahin phod sakta hai……..( Just a saying)
Hitler was alone but he made mighty army of German Youth and Conquered whole Europe. I am not endorsing the wrongs of Hitler . But We need Hindu Leader with firmness & resolve like Hitler.Please make a group and increase your efforts exponentialy.
Ishwar apko safalta deve….
Vande Matram…………
Bharat Mata Ki Jai ………..
( My e-mail ID is not real )
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*****
Krishna-ji,
Thanks a lot for the praise and encouragement…but one only bows down before God and parents.
It is due to well-wishers such as yourself that this has become possible…
As I have written elsewhere, this is a long – and hard – journey…and we need all your support and cooperation.
Please also encourage your friends, colleagues and near-ones to visit the site and to think about these issues.
Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.
P.S. For firmness and resolve, my ideal is Swami Vivekananda, not Hitler.
Shantanu Ji ,
” VIJAYEE BHAV ”
Arise, Awake! And stop not until the goal is reached.
Jai Hind , Jai Bharat .
Vande Maatram !
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/95111
Read this to see the exploitation of innocent Hindu Girls in India.
I am wondering what Hindu Organisations are doing to save Hindu and Sikh Girls from the clutches of Islamists ??
Just to understand my point of view. Here are some useful books / references you can read. I don’t trust the searching for historical matter on websites alone…too many conspiracy theories, lunatics and wack jobs left loose to type their myths)
The following are a list of reputed ( non fiction) books, many of which are best sellers :
1. “Untouchables” – Dr Narendra Jadhav ( one of India’s most reputed ecocomists & Social reformers today). Its a best seller !
2. “Fascism of the Sang Parivar” – P.R.Ram. ( EKTA)..not exactly a best seller, but an interesting book filled with facts, census & accounts.
3. The “Thomson Chain” reference Bible – This American Bestseller is a Bible which includes the Historical references, maps, evidence & explanations you need.
4. “How to read the New Testament” – Etienne Carpentier. ( Complete Guide with maps, datelines, co regional historical references, explanations & Archaelogical evidence for the scriptures).
5. Read the “Canon Laws” of the Catholic faith. That should remove all the mis conceptions regarding our faith.
And ofcourse, read about Buddhism- one of the greatest religions of the world ! Do you know that Buddhism developed as a reformation / rectification of the evil, corrupted & failed Hidooism. For sometime during Asoka’s reign India followed Buddhism. All went well, until the brahmin deviants ( who are used to free food like parasites) hatched out a plan after Emperor Asoka’s death to revive and forcibly suppress/ banish Buddhism in India.
There were only 2 Hindoo nations in the world officially. India & Nepal. Btw, Hindooism was such a failed mythical cult, that even Nepal recently ABOLISHED Hindooism as its State religion. X’ianity is rapidly gaining more converts. The clout of the Vatican is increasing in Nepal. The Vatican Arch Bishop Quentin Lopez is in hands with Nepali bigwigs to influence Nepal’s economical & cultural developement. This leaves only India – all alone with its dying worthless cult of Hindooism ! Talk about extinction !
The above para was referenced from the following : ( Times of India, Mumbai Edition( international purchase), May 7, 2007, International news, page 13).
Dear All:
I have just had an attack of *comment spam* in response to this post.
The comment above by “Vikas” is the only one that was coherent and had some sense in it…
I have manually deleted the rest (9 or 10 in total).
I am also (temporarily) setting up enforced comment moderation – you will still be able to comment on posts but the comment(s) will appear on the blog only after I have moderated them.
Sorry for the inconvenience and please bear with me through this.
Thanks.
Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.
COMMENT BY ADMINISTRATOR
Shadow: Unfortunately I have had to delete your comment.
If you have URL links to the passages you quote, I might consider letting those links appear on a revised comment.
Thanks and hope this does not discourage you from reading this blog and contributing to the discussion.
(Vikas:) “Fascism of the Sang Parivar” – P.R.Ram. ( EKTA)..not exactly a best seller, but an interesting book filled with facts, census & accounts.
Why on earth would you bring up exactly that topic – fascism? Don’t you know how well, how undeniably, the hand of christianity in fascism is documented?
Never heard about the Vatican Ratlines with which the holy church helped nazis from Croatia and Germany escape trial after the war? Don’t worry, you will.
Unlike you, I don’t need to rely on dubious books by Indian ‘activists’ or on foreign-owned ‘Indian’ media like the TOI (barf). Instead, one can rely on well-known historians (from Germany) who have never been refuted, and real journalists.
(1) http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/980330/archive_003555.htm
US News and World Report
‘A Vow of Silence – Did gold stolen by Croatian fascists reach the Vatican?’
By Susan Headden, Dana Hawkins and Jason Vest, 3/22/98
(2) “Ich erinnere mich in tiefer Dankbarkeit an die Hilfe katholischer Priester bei meiner Flucht aus Europa und entschied, den katholischen Glauben zu honorieren, indem ich Ehrenmitglied wurde”
[Translation: “In deep gratitude I recall the help of Catholic priests in my escape out of Europe and decided to honour the Catholic faith in which I became an honorary member”]
— Adolf Eichmann, Nazi war criminal, in 1961
From: Persilscheine und falsche Pässe, by Ernst Klee, which reproduces the statement made by Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann (who had escaped justice thanks to the help of priests, but was finally caught).
(3) And here’s the catholic and protestant churches of Germany, euthanising disabled people for the nazi state:
A translated excerpt of the summary book review, presented in online German bookstores (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3596109566/qid=1120278357/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/302-0003761-7544818), of Persilscheine und falsche Pässe. Wie die Kirchen den Nazis halfen. by Ernst Klee (“Persilscheine [has to do with papers of proof or identity] and forged travel documents. How the churches helped the Nazis.”):
“Recently, representatives from the two great German churches [refers to the two main Christian denominations of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church] arranged themselves for a common action against church-critical television broadcasts. The cause: ‘particularly unpleasant’ documentary transmissions by journalist Ernst Klee, that were and are broadcast by the Hessischen Rundfunk. Klee exposes the failure of the churches without any glossing-over of the Churches’ impropriety in connection to Nazism: involvement in activities of euthanasia and anti-Semitism, up to the organised escape-assistance for Nazis to Latin America after the war’s end. The churches were presented with this past that they hadn’t yet overcome, which leads to the decades-long laboriously and arduously smoothed picture of history – of the churches’ resolved official resistance – being destroyed…”
(4) And for the genocide perpetrated by the catholic clergy nazi outfit of Croatia did (with vatican sanction) read the really well-researched article:
“What is the Vatican hiding? The Vatican’s Complicity in Genocide in Fascist Croatia – The Suppressed Chapter of Holocaust History” by Lituchy.
It is supported by evidence from the US intelligence and that of other allied governments, so no need for pathetic referrals to hapless TOI/Hindustan Times and things like that here…
Located at: http://freetruth.50webs.org/Appendix4.htm
In fact, see that site’s section on Fascism in its entirety too:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7a.htm ‘Fascism including Nazism’ – Germany page
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7a.htm ‘Nazism in former Yugoslavia’
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7c.htm and http://freetruth.50webs.org/A7d.htm are both on ‘The Vatican and Fascism in the 20th century’
What can even compare to the proven fascism of christianity? There’s no need in the christian case to rely on pathetic Indian ‘activists’ (such as those who try feebly to present the Sangh Parivar as fascist). When the real fascism – and more importantly the holocaust – are entirely shown to be christian in origin by German historians and other authors.
You can get these German books in online stores:
– Kirche und Faschismus, by Church historian Karlheinz Deschner
“Church and Fascism”
– Mit Gott und dem Führer – Die Politik der Päpste zur Zeit des Nationalsozialismus by Karlheinz Deschner
“With God and the Fuehrer [Hitler] – Papal politics in the times of National Socialism [Nazism]”
– Persilscheine und falsche Pässe. Wie die Kirchen den Nazis halfen. by Ernst Klee
“Persilscheine [has to do with papers of proof or identity] and forged passports. How the churches helped the Nazis”
– Gott mit uns, Ernst Klee, Willi Dreßen
“God with us”. The title of this book is what could be found engraved on the belt buckles of Nazi wehrmacht uniforms.
– Die SA Jesu Christi. Die Kirchen im Banne Hitlers., Ernst Klee (1993)
COMMENT BY ADMINISTRATOR
Indian: Thanks for the link. I have added this comment to your comment on the Pakistan, Taliban post.
(Vikas:) “Do you know that Buddhism developed as a reformation / rectification of the evil, corrupted & failed Hidooism.”
No. Read some encyclopaedias from a few decades back. They always explain how Buddhism was a part response to the formalism (ritualism) of Hinduism. For example, The Collins Concise Encyclopedia (1977, updated 1981, republished 1984):
“Buddhism, religion of followers of Buddha, widespread in SE Asia, China and Japan; originally related to Hinduism, it was in part reaction against its formalism. The ‘four noble truths’ are: life is sorrow; origin of sorrow is desire; sorrow ceases when desire ceases; desire is ended by following the ‘noble eightfold path’. That path comprises: right belief, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right occupation, right effort, right contemplation, right meditation. Final goal is Nirvana, the annihilation of desires and passions and the cessation of rebirth. See Mahayana and Zen Buddhism.”
(Vikas:) “All went well, until the brahmin deviants ( who are used to free food like parasites) hatched out a plan after Emperor Asoka’s death to revive and forcibly suppress/ banish Buddhism in India.”
No. Read what some actual historians have written, they do not mince words as to what happened to Buddhism in India (same as what happened in Turkestan too):
—-BUDDHISM AND BUDDHISTS
“Between 1000 and 1200 Buddhism disappeared from India, through the combined effects of its own weaknesses, a revived Hinduism and Mohammedan persecution” Edward Conze [117] “[Buddhism in India] declined after Moslem conquest of Sindh, A.D. 712, and finally suppressed by Moslem persecution A.D.1200 ” Christmas Humphreys
“It is partly, no doubt, because of the furor islamicus that post-Gupta remains are surprisingly few in Bihar…” J.C.Harle [199]
Qutb ud din Aibak, described as “merciless and fanatical”, sent his general, Muhammad Khilji, to the northern state of Bihar to continue the Muslim conquests that began in late 12th century. Buddhism was the main religion of Bihar. In 1193,the Muslim general, considering them all idolaters, put most of the Buddhist monks to the sword, and a great library was destroyed. “The ashes of the Buddhist sanctuaries at Sarnath near Benares still bear witness to the rage of the image-breakers. Many noble monuments of the ancient civilisation of India were irretrievably wrecked in the course of the early Muslim invasions. Those invasions were fatal to the existence of Buddhism as an organized religion in northern India, where its strength resided chiefly in Bihar and certain adjoining territories. The monks who escaped massacre fled, and were scattered over Nepal, Tibet, and the south..”
The Muslim conquests of Central Asia also put an end to its Buddhist art. As early as the 8th century, the monasteries of Kizil were destroyed by the Muslim ruler of Kashgar, and as Benjamin Rowland says, “by the tenth century only the easternmost reaches of Turkestan had escaped the rising tide of Mohammedan conquest. “The full tragedy of these devastations is brought out by the words of Rowland: “The ravages of the Mongols, and the mortifying hand of Islam that has caused so many cultures to wither for ever, aided by the process of nature, completely stopped the life of what must for a period of centuries have been one of the regions of the earth most gifted in art and religion.” —-
Above taken from: http://web.archive.org/web/20050207114949/http://secularislam.org/jihad/subjects.htm
(Vikas:) “Btw, Hindooism was such a failed mythical cult, that even Nepal recently ABOLISHED Hindooism as its State religion.”
No. It’s because communists have taken over.
More books on christianism & fascism:
– Die SA Jesu Christi. Die Kirchen im Banne Hitlers., Ernst Klee (1993) (JOURNALIST)
“The SA Jesu Christi. The Churches under Hitler’s spell”
– Kreuz und Hakenkreuz, Kurt Meier
“Cross and hooked-cross”. The title refers to the Christian Cross symbol and the Nazi ‘hakenkreuz’ symbol.
Books on the catholic church in particular:
– Ein Jahrhundert Heilsgeschichte. Von Leo XIII. 1878 bis zu Pius XI. 1939. Die Politik der Päpste im Zeitalter der Weltkriege by Church historian Karlheinz Deschner
“A century of Salvation history. Of Leo XIII 1878 up to Pius XI 1939. The Politics of the Popes in the times of the World Wars.”
– Die Vertreter Gottes. Eine Geschichte der Päpste im 20. Jahrhundert. by Karlheinz Deschner
“God’s representative. A history of the Popes of the 20th century”
– Die Politik der Päpste im 20. Jahrhundert by Karlheinz Deschner
“Papal politics in the 20th century”, also available as one of 15 essays in Deschner’s Opus Diaboli.
– Mit Gott und den Faschisten. Der Vatikan im Bunde mit Mussolini, Franco, Hitler und Pavelic by Karlheinz Deschner
“With God and the Fascists. The Vatican in league with Mussolini, Franco, Hitler and Pavelic”
(Referring to the Catholic fascist dictators of Italy, Spain, Germany and Croatia respectively.)
Nemo: Thanks for the comment and the thorough response. I am particularly pleased that you took the effort to refer to your sources.
This is the quality that we must bring to these debates.
Thanks again and I hope to see many more comments and contributions from you in the future too.
Indian: Thanks for the link tr. NRI family in US. I have consolidated it with your comment on the Pakistan/Taliban post.
Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.
“took the effort to refer to your sources”
My first post was too long I think, and the last sentence or so was cut off. In the now-missing statement, I had written that all the bits I pasted on christianism – including book titles and translations – were taken from that site I linked to ( http://freetruth.50webs.org/ ).
Actually, this applies to the last section of my second post too. You may find these and related stuff there.
Nemo,
your name means ‘no man’ in latin. Latin is the langauge of the christian ( catholics ) you seem to so abhor ( not without reason, and since I have no truck with catholics). So why source your pseudonym to latin. Mentioning that just in passing.
Your take on the eclipse of buddhism doesn’t seem to take into account the vast influence of the buddha’s word in india and all of china, and south east asia eventually. Brahminism routed buddhism successfuly from the sub-continent because of the efforts of adi shankar , and his cohorts, alarmed as they were by the spread of buddism. You also ignore the massacre of buddhist and jain peoples in tamil nadu in that (post sangam) age, that was totally sanctioned by hindu brahminical rulers in tamil nadu at that time. The ezhavas in kerala are all descended from the buddhists migrating from tamil nadu (sri lanka) to the kerala kingdoms to escape persecution at the hands of the brahminical zealots of the day.
Anyway, your take on buddhism as something that ” disappeared from India, through the combined effects of its own weaknesses, a revived Hinduism and Mohammedan persecution”, is weak. Its “own weaknesses” is to just a jibe at the religion, while “revived hinduism” is a euphemism for the persecution, and “mohemmedan persecution” is really passing the buck and blaming the “islam” bogeyman. I don;t think mohemeddans invading discriminated between hindus or buddhists. It would be a rare mohemmedan who would do that.
Apart from that, for being “Nemo”, you seem to be hung up about the whole christian thing. Bringing in Nazis, the church, the pope, the vatican hiding things etc etc etc.
Now , whats that go to do with your hinduism? 6 million jews died because of hitler. I don;t see you mention them. Your only point seems to be that the church was in cahoots
with hitler , so the church is bad. Of course, its bad. Every idiot knows that.
So that proves somehow that hinduism, and by corollary, brahminism is great?
All you guys’s arguments are the same. If you can Tar the other religions black enough you are somehow going to be reflected in good light.
And to do that, you had to quote line and word all those sites and sources,. for which you are lauded and you are so self-effacing about it.
I can quote a thousand and one on-line and non on-line sources to tar and feather hinduism and caste to here and kingdom come.
Of course, as usual, the next line of argument would be, that caste was a wondrous ‘segregation of duties’ philosophy put forth by “ancient” india, which the british came and corrupted..
you guys are just plain apologists for the status quo, which is a edified castieem, where you stil maintain the stratification, but because you want to maintian the numbers ( in case the the disgrunted dalits and tribals convert more and more to buddhism or islam), you want to give lip-service to notions of equality and eradicaiton of caste.
Nobody really believes your poses.
As for the heading towards “christian india” heading of this posting, it takes only a few minutes on google to find out that the % of christians in india is around 2% ( muslims are at 12%). I don;t know if this warrents a posting at all even if sonia gandhi is the congress president. so whats going to happen? she and rahul going to evangelize the ram lals and abhay shuklas and adhilash bhattacharyas and venkatramans and the rest of the 980 million?
If hindusim is that fragile, maybe you guys just need to let it go.
And FYI, Madras medical mission, which you quoted above, was started by a keralite, who was ( he’s dead now) a christian, and so obviously there is a shrine there in the hospital. If you ask me, that is not even a christian thing. It is a HIndu thing, to put up a little place fo the diety immediately after somethind is started. If you roam arounf madras you will see that there are temples – to small gods and all the way to the top dieties – practically on every street corner.
And a lot of hindu’s too offer prayers ( with flowers and stuff) at the shrine ( its heart hospital for crying out loud, so you know what the status ans state minds of the patients is) without losing out on their faith.
Also you mention that “during the tsunami entire dalit villages were converted to chritianity by the lure of money”.
This is not only an insult to dalits but an insult to the suffering the dalits after the tsunami at the hands of the caste hindus.
I happened to visit areas of Tanjavur district – near the coast – and heard first hand how the supplies and places to stay for people ( dalits) whose houses had been washed away, had been denied by caste hindus. How the pernious caste system is so powerful that even in that calamity , segregation was enforced. You forget hat these are villages, that were washed away, and as all over india , dalits live in their own separate villages ( ghettoes would be better word) away from the main villages, sancitoned and preserved by that great religion Hinduism, and its notions of pollution. I dont trust you people have time to refect that that invisible sanction even perpetuates itself to refugee camps – so that dalits are given the worst rations, and the worst places in the camps.
But you guys are busy screaming about the conversations that allegedly took place in the aftermath of the tsunami.
I see from you self-centered nonsense mongering, that nobody really needs to bother.
Hinduism will destroy itself.
The idiocy, the short-sightedness, the immense prejudice, and the inhuman nature brahminical ideology, which refuses to see anybody else as human, the narcissim of this ideology (There is no redeeming quality at all) – all these guaratee that it will fall on its own.
Omen: Thanks for your comment.
Let me address a few points that you raise.
1. Re. Buddhism’s decline in India, there are many reasons and probably no single factor. As it happens, I am trying to collect more information and research on what might have actually happened.
Nemo has quoted sources and references in his support – which I have lauded – perhaps you could do the same so that we all become more aware and get closer to te truth.
If you have any historical references to what happened in TN and South India (and I have no reason to doubt it prima facie), I would very much welcome it.
2. Re. your point about Hinduism and Brahminism “being great”, lets refine these terms a little.
I dont know about Nemo but personally, I have serious issues with what people”assume” to be Hinduism. To me the ideal of Hinduism is no discrimination, open-ness, liberalism and respect (not just tolerance) for others’ beliefs.
Brahminism has all the connotations of discrimination associated with it which no thinking Hindu can justify and not feel ashamed of.
I think you are a little unfair when you say that “All you guys’s arguments are the same. If you can Tar the other religions black enough you are somehow going to be reflected in good light.” – I only hope that you have not had the chance or the time to read some of the other posts on this blog…I dont believe that I have to paint someone else in ugly colours to look better myself…
Sanatan Dharma has enough qualities and traits within itself to be proud of…One really doesnt need crutches here.
As I have written elsewhere on my blog (see the page titled, “The Beginning”):
“Hindu Dharma” – the oldest surviving major religion in the world today…and the only one that gives you the choice, the freedom and the luxury of beliefs that is un-afforded in any other extant set of beliefs…which has, as one of its core tenets, the one-ness of all life…which professes that in spite of diversity and external dissimilarity, all beings are one, all life is sacred and all creatures are part of one eternal truth – the “Brahman”. A religion and culture that had articulated, defined the concepts of tolerance and mutual respect even as most of mankind was still deep in the hinterlands of cultural and spiritual enlightenment.”
3. Re. caste: no, I am certainly NOT an apologist for it…On the contrary, I am deeply ashamed of how traditional beliefs and values got distorted to such an extent that discrimination began to be taken for granted…
I agree that just saying the caste-based discrimination was bad is not enough and one needs to do a lot more…I would like to think that a lot of us are actaully doing a lot more.
4. As for whether the post (which was really excerpted from an article by Francois Gautier) deserved to be put on the blog or not, that is my decision but of course you have full right to disagree with it.
5. You also say, “If hindusim is that fragile, maybe you guys just need to let it go.”…No it is not “fragile” but that does not mean that we pretend that everything is fine…things are not good…there are many weaknesses and aberrations in the way “Hinduism” is understood today…in the way that everyone who is even slightly religious or proud of our values gets branded a fundamentalist and the way terms like Hindu fascist get bandied about.
Alll these misconceptions need to be cleared so discussions like these are helpful.
6. You mention “the suffering (of) the dalits after the tsunami at the hands of the caste hindus” – this is despicable and needs to condemned unequivocally and categorically.
No wonder that the poor suffering people choose to convert. So here I am with you…you may also find this post interesting: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/04/19/shameful-and-inexcusable/
7. Finally, it appears to me that you confuse “Brahminical ideology” with the core tenets of Hinduism…I hope you realise that they are not one and the same. You may also find this post on Periyar interesting: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/05/01/periyar-against-brahminism-not-brahmins/
I am looking forward to your response and hopefully we will get some good thoughts out of this discussion.
_(Omen:) Anyway, your take on buddhism as something that ” disappeared from India, through the combined effects of its own weaknesses, a revived Hinduism and Mohammedan persecution”, is weak. (And rest of paragraph)_
As was made clear in my last post, the whole excerpt on Buddhism – containing statements all made by *reliable* historians (unlike Romila Thappar’s ilk) – was pasted from the link I gave ( http://web.archive.org/web/20050207114949/http://secularislam.org/jihad/subjects.htm ). The words you refer to are Edward Conze’s words, not mine.
_(Omen:) “Bringing in Nazis, the church, the pope, the vatican hiding things”_
Fascism was a topic that Vikas started (post 13) – trying to tar Hinduism with something that christianism was the known author of. I merely responded in order to show why Vikas made a blunder in bringing it up. Besides, what I stated were all well-attested and well-documented facts.
And as Vikas brought up Buddhism, here’s christianism’s record vis-a-vis Buddhism:
– http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/pic1/list.html – BBC news images of how christianism has been terrorising and vandalising Buddhism in S Korea
– http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/2.html – Timeline: ‘Buddhism under Siege in Korea 1982-1996’
– http://www.buddhapia.com/eng/tedesco/3.html – Timeline: ‘Buddhism under Siege in Korea, Chronology of Events January 1997-December 1998’
Above compiled by Frank M. Tedesco, Buddhist Studies.
Some christians may argue that that’s largely protestantism’s guilt and try to shield catholicism from the same.
In that case, a glance at the 1950s will reveal catholicism in violent action against Buddhism – in Buddhist Vietnam. Under ruthless catholic dictatorship, Buddhists were persecuted in their own land, such that many were tortured, pagodas were declared out of bounds, they weren’t even allowed to celebrate Buddha’s birthday, and Buddhist monk after monk burnt himself in protest. (From ‘The Vatican’s Holocaust’, by former BBC commentator Avro Manhattan. Also his ‘Vietnam: Why did we go?’. http://freetruth.50webs.org/Overview4.htm and http://freetruth.50webs.org/D3.htm have excerpts.)
And going further back, we can see catholic christianism was at the same game from the 16/17th century on in Japan, Thailand, China and other Buddhist nations. See ‘Vietnam: Why did we go?’ by that same author again (bits at http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4d.htm ).
Strange that Vikas didn’t know of christianism’s *factual* record in persecuting Buddhism.
And he should really not go around falsely accusing Hinduism of having wiped out Buddhism in India, when historians (excepting the communist/history-falsifying kind) have always clearly stated that it was islam which wiped it out in Turkestan and greater India, like islam had wiped out Zoroastrianism in Persia (eg. http://www.vohuman.org/SiteMap/ZoroastrianGenocide.htm ). Today too, islam continues to behead the ‘infidels’, like the Buddhists of Thailand (eg. Boston Herald News, June 07 http://news.bostonherald.com/international/asiaPacific/view.bg?articleid=1004311 ).
_(Omen:) Nemo, your name means ‘no man’ in latin._
Why else would I have chosen the handle ‘Nemo’?
_(Omen:) “Latin is the langauge of the christian ( catholics ) “_
No. Latin was the language of the ancient Romans (‘pagans’) centuries before christianism. It has nothing to do with christianism, except by coincidence: christians in the Roman empire spoke it and by chance their sect ended up making up much of western christianism (cf. how Europe’s eastern christianism took over Greek).
Besides, according to historians, popes and priests could not even preserve Latin, the language they usurped.
“Ordinary priests had not the slightest understanding of the Latin they mumbled. Even the secretaries of the Papacy at Rome sent out their documents in the most atrocious Latin, full of common grammatical errors.” — The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe, historian and former Franciscan monk
“As for “monks constantly occupied in copying the classic texts,” for the preservation and diffusion of Pagan culture, it is a joke! They couldn’t read Greek nor good Latin, and nobody else could read at all, — also, Holy Church and Churchmen loathed Pagan culture and literature.” — Forgery in Christianity, by Joseph Wheless
No one understands where you got the idea that Latin is a ‘christian’ language. But christianism did give rise to illiteracy – that’s something: It made the well-read Roman Empire nearly completely illiterate very fast.
“By 480 nearly every school in the Empire was destroyed. By 580, and until 1780 at least, from ninety to ninety-five percent of the people of Europe were illiterate and densely ignorant. That is the undisputed historical record of Christianity as regards education.” — The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe
The quotes on Latin and christian illiteracy taken from http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2b.htm.
Hinduism and Buddhism are two brothers born to same parents. Buddhism is the deep and strict form of Hinduism. Many terms described in Buddhidm is in sanskrit or pali langauage and very familiar to term which we use in daily spiritual life. Those who strictly follows Hinduism is following Buddhism only. So there is no question of one being superior to another, plus those who follows Buddhism is also following many aspects of Hinduism. Please dont divide two brothers on the line. Lets gets united and dont be offended if some one tells us you are Buddhist or Hindu. It is two side of the same coin. Accept anyone who is following Buddhism as our relatives and help them.
Nemo: Thanks for your follow-up comments. For some reason, they were caught in the spam queue…It should be fine now.
Indian: Good point and I dont think any of us consider Buddhism as being inimical to Hinduism…
Although I have mentioned the conversion of Dalits into Buddhism in one of my recent posts, the intention is not to highlight the conversion into Buddhism but to highlight the quality of news reporting in the Indian English language media: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/06/02/great-joke-indian-media-2/
PLEASE READ!
Are we really living in SECULAR India? Why are we suddenly seeing sectarian religious symbols on OUR (ALL INDIANS) NATIONAL CURRENCY (eg “cross” Re2 coins)? WHERE IS THE MAP OF INDIA and SATYAMEVA JAYATE (which symbolize ALL the Indians)? The use of ANY religious symbol on our (INDIANS OF ALL FAITHS) NATIONAL CURRENCY for propagation of religion is UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD! Read the petition online (google: “cross” on 2 Rupee coin petition). KEEP INDIA SECULAR!
Jai Hind!
Dear Shantanu:
I saw this news item while browsing the internet. I think the shepherds are desperate to increase the number of lambs under their care.
In the meanwhile, we Hindus are holding a heated debate on whether there is (was) discrimination among the Hindu society.
Regards,
Nandan
http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=863&Itemid=
source: Andhra Jyothy (Telugu), October 8, 2007
“A new way of deceiving innocent Hindus to become virtual missionaries discovered.
Srikalahasti Oct8: Police arrested a 60 year old man for distributing Christian missionary propaganda material inside Sri Kalahasthiswara temple. Police are investigating this man who claims to be a Hindu. On Monday morning temple security personnel identified a man distributing Christian conversion propaganda material near Nandi idol inside the temple. Enraged devotees and locals pounced on the man before security personel could get hold of him.
The man claims that he did not distribute the Christian literature intentionally. The man claimed that he is a Hindu and his name is Ankayya and resides in Muthyalamma street. During his recent visit to Tirupati he met a Christian missionary who claimed that if he doesn’t distribute those flyers to 50 other people, bad luck would fall upon him. Mr. Ankayya got scared of these words and started distributing Christian conversion literature. “
Thanks for the link Nandan. Worrying.
http://deshgujarat.com/2007/11/28/story-of-2-rs-coin-that-has-become-modis-election-issue/
What about this ?
http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/search?q=New+10+rupee+coin
@KSV
Thanks for the link. I am disturbed.
I am really disturbed that we Hindus have become so insecure about out our own faith. Was our religion the same like today a 1000 years ago? We cannot be sure that our future generations will hold on to the same faith that we possess today. No one can stop an idea whose time has come.
I believe the religion of future will give equal respect to all human and preserve the beauty of nature and whole universe. The test of religion will be that… Don’t belive that a few people can force their religion on us… It is same rule for Christianity, Hnduism and all others.
By worrying about Christianity, attacking their faith you are just giving them undue importance which eventually could help them only. So if we believe our religion is better than theirs let use that knowledge for the betterment of our country. We should remember that a vast majority of our own people lack basic things like food and shelter. 2.5% christians can hel a lot. ..what about us? Let us help our people irrespective of religion and caste. Then only we can stop worrying about a very small minority called Christians.
Indu Devakumar
kerala
Hare Krishna
RE. “who are used to free food like parasites” # 13.
What a comment. That is an ancient Vedic concept as they are not supposed to make money. So they are given free food.
We at Hare Krishna serve food in all trouble torn places in the world. We served food to those hit by Katrina in USA’s south coast. We did not seek publicity for this. This detatched form of feeding made me a Hare Krishna from a confused European
We have fed millions of people free veg food all over the world. You mean to say that those who ate our free food come just for having a party. Friend they are hungry. SriLa Prabhupad extolled us to give free food to all as Krishna’s prasadam.
Hare Krishna is a popular faith in Russia now. Just type Hare Krishna in Russia in google and you will get an idea.
Hare Rama , Hare Krishna
Eat Vegetarian, Support the best, first and finest culture in world Agriculture , the only word which has culture attached to it. Then you can have Food for Life.
Great comment! Krishnadas, about food for life. It goes like this first make non-Euro country poor and hungry then feed them. Later boast, claim and preach how we feed, and how to get salvation.
Post 13 , please go thru this.
Even Buddhists monk have whatever (vege) is offered. Would you call them names then? I have worked with Buddhists in many countries. We get along very well especially with food offerings.
Read this web site.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/layguide.htm
Food
A monk is allowed to collect, receive and consume food between dawn and midday (taken to be 12 noon). He is not allowed to consume food outside of this time and he is not allowed to store food overnight. Plain water can be taken at any time without having to be offered. Although a monk lives on whatever is offered, vegetarianism is encouraged.
A monk must have all eatables and drinkables, except plain water, formally offered into his hands or placed on something in direct contact with his hands. In the Thai tradition, in order to prevent contact with a woman, he will generally set down a cloth to receive things offered by women. He is not allowed to cure or cook food except in particular circumstances.
In accordance with the discipline, a monk is prohibited from eating fruit or vegetables containing fertile seeds. So, when offering such things, a layperson can either remove the seeds or make the fruit allowable slightly damaging it with a knife. This is done by piercing the fruit and saying at the same time ‘Kappiyam bhante’ or ‘I am making this allowable, Venerable Sir’ (the English translation). It is instructive to note that, rather than limiting what can be offered, the Vinaya lays emphasis on the mode of offering. Offering should be done in a respectful manner, making the act of offering a mindful and reflective one, irrespective of what one is giving”
Apologies for repeat
The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara, novel
http://www.davidkertzer.com/en/books/kidnapping_of_edgardo_mortara.html
should be an eye opener for all in India. I have visited South India’s famous Ramana Ashram several times. I have heard many discussing this Edgardo Mortara like phenomena happen in India. Indians should try to translate this into their native languages with proper copyright. It is really a miracle that your native langauges are still alive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortara_Affair
The Mortara case
[edit] Seizure
On the evening of 23 June 1858, in Bologna, then part of the Papal States, police arrived at the home of a Jewish couple, Salomone (“Momolo”) and Marianna Padovani Mortara, to seize one of their eight children, six-year-old Edgardo, and transport him to Rome to be raised as a ward of the state.
The police had orders from Holy Office authorities in Rome, authorized by Pope Pius IX.[1] Church officials had been told that a 14-year-old[2] Catholic servant girl of the Mortaras, Anna Morisi, had baptized Edgardo while he was ill because she feared that he would otherwise die and go to Hell. Under the law of the Papal States, Edgardo’s baptism, even if illegal under canon law, was valid and made him a Christian.
Shantanu,
( With search I felt this was apt. link to post. Feel free to move it )
Shocking revelations of (shall we say) Biblical proportions!
photos
http://men.style.com/gq/features/topsecret
Report
http://men.style.com/gq/features/landing?&id=content_9217
See links at my blogs also.
The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (#69) has great implications for India. It is true story and the way the Jewish boy was baptised has ramifications for India. This true story is not like Dan Brown novels , where the institutions he mentions are true , but the writing is seventy percent hand weaving. My visits to Ramana Ashram in South India has made me realise there is lot of Edgardo Mortara type cases happening in India. I have heard this happen , but because of paucity of time, I have not inquired further. Indians you still have your native languages intact. Just consider copyright rules and translate this novel into all your native languages. It will be an eye opener for Indians. If you analyse the mode of inquisition , the severity of cruelty decreased , like burning at the stake, to a more foxy cunning and sophisticated form of conversion as centuries passed. Bruno was burned at the stake, while Edgardo Mortara was converted by his servant , when he was sick , saying that he will go to hell , if he is not baptised. This was in 1859. Science and Technology has advanced in leaps and bounds. Savvier methods will be used. One will be to get into political system and keep on changing Indian ethos, denying anything Indian. About the methods which will evolve for this , one can continue writing, but I stop here. Hope I have educated Indians about this. Once again , please expand your horizons, read and analyse well.
JM S-
“…Savvier methods will be used. One will be to get into political system and keep on changing Indian ethos, denying anything Indian. About the methods which will evolve for this , one can continue writing, but I stop here. Hope I have educated Indians about this. Once again , please expand your horizons, read and analyse well.”
expand horizons, read and analyse
These are characteristics of a Brahmana. Seeker of truth.
Today, for a lot of us, it is not truth or spiritual truths that matter.
For a lot of us it is making money, wealth that matters.
For some it is power that is attractive. Influence, Recognition. Respect.
And for many others it is developing of a skill that is important.
As we engage in these various pursuits, in various degrees, many of us tend to offload such activities as thinking, analysis and seeking truth to media and so-called intelligensia.
And so get swayed by their opinion. We may think that we have read and analysed the issue thoroughly. But, in most cases we would have merely allowed ourselves to be convinced by certain arguments put forward by somebody.
Television has had an important role in shaping such an attitude in society.
Effectiveness of advertisements is an example of how ideas are planted in the minds of people who then act accordingly.
The centuries of foreign rule has also had an effect in curbing free thinking in india.
So the hope of having educated Indians on this subject may not find supporting evidence on ground.
Thanks
वंदे मातरम,
आज हिनà¥à¤¦à¥à¤¸à¥à¤¥à¤¾à¤¨ को आजाद हो कर कई साल बीत गà¤. लेकिन अबतक हिनà¥à¤¦à¥à¤“ के इस देश में हिनà¥à¤¦à¥‚ धरà¥à¤®à¤‚ की रकà¥à¤·à¤¾ के लिठकोई कदम नहीं उठाया.
अगर हम सब अपने धरà¥à¤®à¤‚ में आसà¥à¤¥à¤¾ रखते है तो चलो à¤à¤¾à¤°à¤¤ वरà¥à¤· में à¤à¤• नया कायदा बनाने के लिठसरकार से बात करते है.
à¤à¤• à¤à¤¸à¤¾ कानून बनाने पर मजबूर करंगे की कोई à¤à¥€ अपना धरà¥à¤® न बदल सके.
अब यहाठके सà¤à¥€ बà¥à¤¦à¥à¤§à¤¿ जीवी लोगो पर निरà¥à¤à¤° है की कैसे इस काम में आगे बà¥à¤¾à¤¨à¤¾ है.
हम अलग अलग लोगो (जैसे BJP या RSS )से जाकर मिलेंगे और कहेंगे की इसके लिठआवाज उठाये.
कृपया आप सà¤à¥€à¤¸à¥‡ मेरी बिनती है की à¤à¤¸ विषय पर कà¥à¤› कदम उठाया जाये.
जय हिंद.
मै अपने देश से बहोत पà¥à¤¯à¤¾à¤° करता हूठऔर धरà¥à¤®à¤‚ में आसà¥à¤¥à¤¾ रखता हूà¤.
अपने देश और धरà¥à¤®à¤‚ को लिठआपनी जान तक देने की लिठतैयार हूà¤.
और अगर मेरे देश या धरà¥à¤®à¤‚ को बचाने को लिठमà¥à¤à¥‡ पूरी दà¥à¤¨à¤¿à¤¯à¤¾ से à¤à¥€ लड़ना पड़े तो मै तैयार हूà¤.
अगर किसे को पास कोई à¤à¥€ तरकीब हो तो मà¥à¤à¤¸à¥‡ संपरà¥à¤• कर सकते हो.
संदीप नारायण शेळके,
९८५०२०९२५२,
sandeepnshelke@gmail.com
जय हिंद.
जय à¤à¤µà¤¾à¤¨à¥€ जय शिवाजी.
Now this might sound strange, but is an idea I have been forced to consider seriously. Perhaps it is safer for India to become a Christian majority country – because that is the safest way to avoid being a Muslim majority country. Those who convert to Christianity are less likely to convert to Islam.
I am really scared of India becoming a Muslim majority country – while majority of Muslims are peaceful they will sit simply and watch if some fundamentalist group takes over power and declare India Islamic. Christian country may give soaps and subsidies to Christians but I still will be able to go to temples and pray.
And when I hear examples of inter-religious marriages with Hinduism being deserted in a majority of them, putting it together with the fact that recently there has been a huge surge in love marriages, I am quite afraid of the possibility of India being Muslim majority. This is perhaps the only argument I can think in favor of Nehruvian socialism.
My encounters with Indian Christians.
I lived in UK , then Canada. I used to meet Indians of all faiths. But I was amused at the naiveness of some Indian Christians who were first exposed to the West and were bewildered that in the West Church going is not a big activlty. Infact one the converstions , I remember is like this, After introduction and meeting the person several times, a sample conversation goes like this.
” Good morning , Mr Smith, I would like to ask you a question” said Mr DeSouza. I do not remember his first name. Yes , go ahead I said.
” I have met you several times and many here, but none of you attend Sunday masses like me amd my family does in India”
” Well , we have other interesting work to do”
Then curiously I continued ” Why do ask this now after this few wks of acquaintance?”
Then came the innocent and supremely naive assumption , which made me wake up to give a detailed answer. Such answers require a good dose of caffeine to stir you up.
Mr Desouza let his naivety go like this ” My impression is that most of the westerners esp whites are Christians and very religious”. I had to let out the details, starting with ” My parents were not very religios people and they did not encourage relgion” Desouza interrupted me to say
Were they Marxists ?
“No” I said , they were right wing atheists”
Then came his next outpouring ” Even in my work place , many do not go to church and many say they are atheists” .
I told him lets go for a coffee ( yes , this required caffeine) and I will explain you why is this, like this. I explained to him about how with the march of science and World War 11 changed all the church believers into atheists or agnostics. The cruelty of Hitler which had support from Pope Pius X11 for the Holocaust , had a telling effect on many believers. Many who were on the fringes of theism, even with advancement of science, became confirmed non-believes.
Mr DeSouza replied ” I will go back to India , then , if I do not get an atmosphere , to go to church”
” What is this atmosphere ” I asked.
” Crowd, Good company , friends etc”
” Why do you need company and a flock to worship. You can sit in a corner and meditate on the image or no image you want”
No , No, For a mass you must have a crowd” said Desouza.
A very sweet fellow, he worked for some time in Canada and went back to India, probably missing the crowd for a mass.
I was an ass not to take his contact, as during my visits to Ramana Maharishi Ashram , I could have contacted him and asked him how he is performing in a crowded Sunday mass.
I have talked with many Indians in India and overseas. Many think that whites are all Christians. Please forget this assumption and if somebody is preaching this , do not believe this. Infact , a goog crop of preists come from the state of Kerala overseas to conduct masses. I have heard this from my friends, as I do not go to church. There are very few in the West, who want to be priests and the number is dwindling at a fast rate. I am not able to conclude whether it is the intrinsic spirtual nature of Indians , which makes them take up priesthood or is it the security of sumptous course meals and good houses ( in some places it is outright opulent, very very opulent) that makes them take up this vocation. I leave this for your ponderance.
http://www.zimler.com/
Please go thru this web site. There is very good novel about Goa
http://www.zimler.com/books.php
Guardian of the Dawn
Synopsis From the highly acclaimed author of The Last Kabbalist of Lisbon and Hunting Midnight comes a sweeping tale of persecution, devotion and vengeance in colonial Goa . By the time the 16 th century was drawing to a close in the Portuguese colony of Goa , the Catholic Inquisition was making excellent progress. ‘Sorcerers’ – whether native Hindus or immigrant Jews – who refused to betray others or give up their beliefs were either strangled by executioners or burnt alive in public autos-da-fé . The Zarco family manages to stick firm to its Portuguese-Jewish roots until, as the children reach adulthood, both father and son are betrayed to the Inquisition. Gradually, the truth of the family’s destruction is revealed. The consequences are devastating. Impeccably researched, Guardian of the Dawn is both a riveting historical mystery and, in its exploration of the nature of evil, a powerful reinterpretation of Othello. This is Richard Zimler at his imaginative, energetic – and insightful – best.
I was surprised to know , from the Indians I met, have no knowledge of this novel. It recently won an award in Europe. I inquired and found that Indian Universities do not have a Department of Religion or relgious studies, which for a secular country is not right. The main reason why all these novels come from the West is apart from the archives in Europe, is the establishment of these Religious studies dept in USA and Europe ( not so strong as US). The training provided in these depts gives them the power to inquire. If you have these depts, you could translate this novel and the Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara into native Indian languages. Indians must know all sides well, to give in a correct judgement. Lack of these studies will result only in beating the faith , you are in, as you are only fed larger bad and little good news, about, what you are in.
Mr. JM Smith,
Nice comment. So let me ask you a question about this issue. I believe most commoners in West would probably have an opinion similar to yours. When it comes to the government and the media however, the picture seems to change. Somehow, I get the feeling that BBC it playing a strong part in portraying Hindu religion in negative light. Even the Western governments seem to be actively supporting religious zealots in countries where UK and US soldiers are fighting wars. And of course, Indians are being bullied and persecuted like nowhere else, simply because Indians are tolerant, (and yes, poor).
Could I have your views on this? Do you ever worry that the religious persecution that common people faced a few centuries ago will enter Western societies by back door, through converted third world people and priests? Are enlightened white scholars taking this issue up in right earnest anywhere?
Dear Shantanu,
The great western “DEMOCRACY” which talks about Amnesty International, Human Rights etc. will it ever take the rights of the dead Saddam Hussein into consideration.
We have a shameless PM of a supposed to be “Educated and Scientific” nation the nation that has supposed to have “Educated” us BLOODY INDIANS saying that his “Religion” was that made him join the war in Iraq.
The British should bow their heads in shame.
I am sure this goes to prove that the white man is all “religious inside” and talks of “Secularism” and all the nonsense that goes with it only as a Garb.
Let us Christian Educated Hindus wake up to this treachery and become aware of the true nature of the western politicians.
I am now “TRULY PROUD” that Shri. Modi was denied a visa. The west could not recogonise a PURE HINDU SECULARIST!
Regards,
vck
45, Your question requires rigorous analysis. Surely I will reply. It is a very good question.
Dear Mr. JM Smith,
Have you had some time to reflect on the question I asked? Here is a link as further evidence to support my hunch.
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23205.htm
Inculturation tactics of missionaries! Now there are “Brahmin Christians”! Please read
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=9043&SKIN=B
@Froginthewell#42
I am afraid that after all the dallying the moment of truth has come for the Hindus of India. I see nothing in India over the past 50 years that amounted to attack on the degraded condition and poverty of the ordinary Hindu. As far as I can see from the utterances of India’s right wing, the poor’s hope of doing so might have to await a million re-births. That has left India fair game for militant Islam which has been using all means at its disposal to enlarge its power and influence and Christianity as the new kid on the block who has their champion in Sonia Gandhi. India’s political/judicial system is already defined in Judeo/Christian terms, and a Christian takeover is already being easily and effortlessly taking place. The reason it is taking place is because the dead hand of Hinduism with its all embracing philosophies and diversity has failed to deal with threats that have emanated from within and without. Our doctrines and political institutions that have answered our needs have been so long out of use that we can not be sure that they can answer the need of the present day. When a great country is threatened as India is today, it can look to a leader to save it from ruin and to chalk out a great future. I am afraid India’s Hindus hope of a divine saviour is going to go answered. Gandhi toyed with the idea of conversion to Christianity but desisted. He could have saved us a lot of trouble had he done so. We would have had clear path to followed his example or chalked out a Hindu path which I think would have been the right path for us and our country. As it is now, barring an accident, India’s path to Christianity is going to be preferable to Islam. With time Islam becomes stronger by the day. So any delay is likely to mean India will turn Islamic. The geo-political implication for the world is so profound that the Pope’s hope of delivering up India to Christianity was based not solely on religious grounds. The Indian Hindus weakness which has such profound implications for whether the West or Islam prevails, means that India has become the battleground for these two religions.
#45, Yes, the media , films are being used as new tools for colonialism. I agree there is persecution of people from the other world by the first world. This is done very cleverly/
I was in Japan for three years. Even though they do not have defence budget ( very minimal), their not being a colony has not made them a ready bully for the first world. In the western media they show some atrocities by Japanese in the earlier century, but it is nothing compared to what they show of the other world. This is because Japan did not have colonial masters. The power of technology and the hard work , they have put for it , is their own work ethics, whereas the erstwhile colonial states , try to copy the model of their colonial masters and the colonial masters take undue advantage by indulging in what you have written.
The team work shown by Japanese in science and technology can be easily emulated by Indians as it is a Eastern concept. I was discussing with an Indian friend about Japanese science . He showed me a publication in a leading journal having 12 authors from Japanese University. This he says , you cannot expect in the individual character of the West.
There are three layers in India. First is the media savvy,
English speaking elite , who are like quasi ( almost) colonialists. The second layer looks to this first layer and third layer , the third layer being the poor and supressed. The second layer reacts, but does not act well. The second layer is a densely populated layer , less dense than the third layer. If the second layer can get their acts for positive action towards the third layer and debate successfully with the first layer, thru media, there will be a dramatic change.
adding further to 51, Japan does not have the first layer, which gives them a great advantage over the erstwhile colonial states.
Heading towards a christian india with the help of Madam Ji.
Convert christians threatens Hindus.