Caste, Varna and Jatis: The need for clarity in intellectual debate
by B Shantanu · November 25, 2005
VARNA AND JATIS: THE NEED FOR CLARITY IN INTELLECTUAL DEBATE
Recently, I came across this piece in the International Herald Tribune [“An International spotlight on the caste system”, Sunanda K Datta-Ray, 13th May ‘05] mentioning that the United Nation Commission on Human Rights has recently appointed two special rapporteurs to examine the caste system and to specify a set of guidelines for policy and governance purposes.
The article by respected columnist, Sunanda Datta-Ray made the same error that Indian social commentators (particularly those writing in English) commonly make i.e. a literal interpretation of the Sanskrit term “varna” to mean “colour”. To quote, the UN will examine the “abominations of what has been called the world’s oldest color bar – the Sanskrit word for caste being varna, or color (sic)”.
I thought this was an excellent excuse to examine the whole issue (and confusion) around caste, class, race, varna, jati and related terms.
What exactly do these terms mean?
In the words of Andre Beteille, “When one uses the term “caste” in English, one is actually translating two distinct terms in the classical as well as the modern languages of India. The first term is varna and the second is jati. Varna and jati have both been described as caste. They are not unrelated to each other but they are not the same, and it is very important to understand the distinction between the two in order to understand the social logic of caste.. [“Caste, Inequality and Affirmative Action”, André Béteille, International Institute for Labour Studies, Geneva at http://www.ilo.org/public/english/bureau/inst/download/andre.pdf ]
To quote Rajiv Malhotra, “In particular, today’s common views of varna and jati are very narrow, and do not adequately describe Indian society. Jati is not caste, but became so under colonial rule (Dirks did a lot of good research on this). But more problematic is the distortion of Varna, which has become the basis for the whole Dalit conflict. I read far too many works that seem to insist on frozen jati-varna (wherein a whole jati has the same varna, and, furthermore, this varna is said to be unchangeable). But this is an inaccurate picture. I hope …students are given a more nuanced treatment than most South Asianized desis that I have come across on these matters. [“Is Hindutva the Indian Left’s ’Other’? Rajiv Malhotra in Outlook India, 15 Jan ’04, http://india.eu.org/833.html ]
Edmund Weber has written that, “The colonial term ‘caste’ is muddling the two sociological categories meaning completely different social states of affairs: ‘jati’ and ‘varna’. Jati means real working community of birth, marriages, of profession, culture and religion (closer to the widely (mis)understood meaning of caste; varna, however, means the social rank, status, order (closer to class). ”Varna” does not mean the work-sharing assignment of the “jatis”. This has been always an element of the “jatis” themselves. The socio-cultural evaluation of the “jatis”, their ranking place (again, as in class), is expressed by the hierarchical “varna”. [“Ambedkar and the Hindu Culture. Journal of Religious Culture No. 18b (1999)”, Edmund Weber, on the web at http://web.uni-frankfurt.de/irenik/relkultur18b.html ]
Bear in mind that the origin of the word itself suggests the fundamental misunderstanding around the concept of racial purity. The word derives from the Portuguese word casta (also Spanish), feminine of casto which means “pure” from the Latin “castus”.
Also it is worth mentioning that the word “varna” does not directly mean colour. It is in fact derived from the root “vr” which means screen, veil, covering, external appearance. One of its indirect meaning is “appearance”. As appearance however, it does not refer to the colour of the skin of the people, but to the qualities (“guna”) of energies of human nature.Ignoring the conceptual distinction between “jati” and “varna” (which is sometimes deliberate and ideologically motivated) doesn’t help either a deeper understanding of the origins of the system or serious efforts to combat the distortions that have crept in.
For an excellent analysis of broad categorisation of theories that attempt to explain the caste system, visit “The Origin of Caste” website at http://www.islam4all.com/the_origin_of_caste.htm. It includes excerpts and brief summary from the book “Caste, Class and Race – A Study in Social Dynamics’ By Oliver Cromwell Cox, Ph.D. Professor of Sociology, Lincoln University]
The following excerpt illustrates just how much misunderstanding and confusion has been caused by the extremely narrow interpretation of the term “varna”.
“Probably the most common explanation of the origin of caste is based upon beliefs that the word “varna” means color; hence, caste must have originated in the Aryan’s passion for protecting their light Asiatic color from intermixture with the dark color of the Dravidians. However, as we shall attempt to indicate below, the early literature of the Hindus does not show this to be the case.”
Part of the confusion is simply due to ignorance or mis-understanding of several Sanskrit terms (which sometimes have fairly broad interpretation). In this context, it may be helpful to list a few key points:
- Varna has other meanings in Sanskrit, apart from colour
- The term “Sudra” is not synonymous with “Dravid”
- There is no historical data to suggest that “varna” really symbolized racial antipathy between Aryans and Dravidians
- It is mistaken to assert that caste is invariant and immutable and one is born into it. There are clear references in the Bhagavad Gita to how “varna” was determined by (“guna”) qualities and (“karma”) efforts.
- In sloka (IV.13) Lord Krishna says: “Chaturvarnyma mayaa sristam gunkarma vibhagsah” i.e. four orders of society created by Me according to their Guna (qualities/behaviour) and Karma (profession/work/efforts). Note that there is no reference to “guna” and “karma” of previous life.In sloka (XVIII.41) Lord Krishna says “Brahmana Kshatriya visham sudranam cha paramtapa, karmani pravibhaktani svabhavaprabhavaigunaih.” It means people have been grouped into four classes according to their present life karma (profession/work) and svabhava (behaviour). `The division of labour into four categories – Brahman, Ksatriya, Vaishya and Sudra – is also based on the Gunas inherent in peoples’ nature`. Had this division been based on birth, Lord Krishna would have naturally used phrase ‘Janmani pravibhaktani’ in the very shloka (XVIII.41).
- It is not even clear which, if any, skin colour, was considered superior or “preferred” amongst the early Aryo-Dravidians.Shri Krishna, for example, is often referred to as the “dark-cloud-faced one” or the “dusky-one” or the “dark-blue-one,” and Lord Rama, the divine hero, is often represented as dark or blue or green.
- The racial theory of caste is empirically inconsistent because before the (caste) system became organized, the population had already became inseparably mixedNote that this early amalgamation of population demonstrates that the “varna” system was not rigid & inflexible. In the words of John C Nesfield, “a Bengali Brahman looks like other Bengalis, a Hindustani like other Hindustanis, a Mahratti like other Mahrattis, and so on, which proves that the Brahmans of any given nationality are not of different blood from the rest of their fellow-countrymen”. In reality, Brahmins from different regions resemble the local communities far more (in appearance) than some mythical Aryan “white” race.
- The blurring of distinction between “varna” and “jati” may not be entirely blamed on modern interpretation. Apparently even Manu used the term “varna” synonymously with “jati” – which is better defined as the form of existence determined by birth, position, rank or family descent; kind or species
Finally, here are a couple of points to think about. Is it really possible that a system as rigid as the caste order could be built upon skin colour – not even colour as such but by the parentage of the colour groups?
Even if we were to assume for a moment that the caste system originated due to the difference in skin-colour, how does one explain the apparent assumption of “natural superiority” by the Aryans when at the time of the “invasion”, the Dravidians evidently had a higher culture?
All this points to the need of creating awareness about these terms and more research into the origins of the caste system. Until that happens, social commentators, activists and politicians will continue to abuse the terms for their narrow ends.
Also here: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/06/25/hindu-dharma-newsletter-issue-8/
iam impressed. and also totally agree with your views.
i believed these views even before i read your notes.
Shadow Warrior’s response to: Was caste a decisive factor in India’s defeat?
No, I do not think so.
Why? Because the caste system was not so oppressive as is being made out.
Let us see what A.L. Basham has to say on the matter.
He says: “In no other part of the world were the relations of man and man and of a man and the state as fair and humane” as in India. (The wonder that was India). He was perhaps comparing the lot of the Scheduled Castes in India with the lot of the slaves in Greece and Rome.
It is, therefore, wrong to say that the caste system was responsible for the defeat of the Hindus at the hands of the Muslim invaders.
There is no evidence that the Scheduled Castes were
ready to join hands with the invaders against their so-called “tormentors”.
It is also wrong to say that Vaishyas and Shudras did not take part in battles. They did.
Vastupala, the great warrior under the Chalukya king Lavanaprasada, declares with great pride: “It is a delusion to think that the Kshatriyas alone can fight and not vaniks (merchants). Did not Ambada, a vanik kill Mallikarjuna, the warrior, in battle? I, a vanik, am as well known in the shops as in the battlefield.” (Art of War in Ancient India by Prof. P.C. Chakravarty)
The Kashmiri and Hoyasala (Mysore) kings recruited Shudras for their armies. Shudras could attain imperial positions under the Rajput rulers. The ruler of Sind during the visit of Juan Chwang, the Chinese pilgrim, was a Shudra. The Nandas were Shudras.
Dear Friends, Namaskar and Hari Om!
Regarding this particular issue, I liked Venkitesh’ conclusion that the defeat of India happened because India was “at a civilizational low”.
However, I do not agree with the proposition that “all civilizations go through cycles”. In my understanding, civilisations start, rise, thrive, then get degraded, and finally crumble and fall, to be substituted by a new rising civilisation.
Now I would like to highlight the fact that SANATANA DHARMA is not just “another civilisation like all others”.
This mentality is precisely what makes Hinduism merely a puny ethnic folkloristic concern in the eyes of the general people (including most Hindus) rather than the genuine expression of the eternal and universal Sanatana Dharma that it really is.
THIS is the reason why the western public opinion is not attracted to Hinduism: THE BIRTH PREJUDICE.
Return Hinduism to its natural quality of Sanatana Dharma by eliminating the bogus birth prejudice (that is not supported by genuine sastras and has no scientific or logical foundations whatsoever except in Nazi fantasies) and you’ll see Hinduism triumphantly establishing itself as the Global Dharma for the Third Millennium.
Millions of people all over the world are ready to jump on the train, provided its face loses its bigotry, stupidity, corruption, and ignorance: this can be done only by forcing the false leaders (who are responsible for such degradation) either to change their position, or to be pushed off the train without delay.
Inertia is too often passed off as “not proselytising” or as “honoring the age-old tradition”. However, inertia is simply tamas, and can only bring degradation and destruction. Many will drop straight from denial to despair, but that is also tamas.
Regarding the fact that sudras and vaisyas could hold higher positions in Hindu society, this is the proper interpretation of the sastra.
The fact that SOMEONE in India has always been able to understand the proper conclusion and application of the sastra does not mean that this was the general system. Anyone who takes the trouble to research the smriti can see that there are provisions for prayascitta purification for anyone (not only sudras or vaisyas, but even mlecchas and candalas and “foreigners”) to become bona fide brahmanas and ksatriyas, and such prayascitta is very simple and painless 🙂
Rightly many say that the “system was flexible” before the British and before the Muslims, but yet the general mass is led to believe that the blind birth prejudice is the actual and original version that must be enforced at all costs, even at the cost of selling out Hinduism to the preying hands of the anti-Hindu secular government.
Again, the blame goes to the so-called “authorities” of “traditional Hinduism” who distort(ed) and hid(e) reality and facts in order to better exploit the ignorant masses.
And again, the only option is forcing such “authorities” either to recognise and teach and practice the genuine version (of guna, karma, samskara) or to be pushed off the train.
This article/post helps me a lot in explaining that a person’s caste is determined by guna and karma. Thanks for the reference to shlok IV.13; a clear reminder that the Mahaguru never mentioned a birthright to any caste.
We need a new enlightenment on the subcontinent. Academics really should debate religious leaders on the failure of the latter’s congregations to fully understand a basic tenet of Sanatan Dharma (varna and jaati). As leaders, that failure rests on their shoulders. Vigorous dialogue along these lines is a necessary component – in my humble opinion – to erasing the institutionalisation of the modern caste system.
Excerpts from Caste and Race: UNHRC’s hidden agenda by Saurav Basu, 03 Oct 2009 that are somewhat relevant to the post.
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The move by the UNHRC to treat caste-based discrimination as a human rights violation is an irresponsible act of subverting Indian democratic and cultural institutions. The UNHRC’s obsession to equate caste as a ‘racist’ institution smacks of Christian and Leftist influence…
…The internalization of the ‘caste problem’ is mutually beneficial for both these groups. Leftists-Marxists in academia will benefit from increased research grants. Analysts of the UN process said these little inclusions in official documents make a big difference in the field – in terms of funding to social activist organizations with a strong caste bias (Times of India, 18.4.2009).
…Western Indologists have grappled with the idea of caste, but failed to understand the notion of caste for what it is, then what it is not! Class divide, colour divide, Aryan-non Aryan (race) and even occupation divides, which are known historical modes of Semitic and Western discrimination, have all miserably failed in the case of relevance and applicability to caste.
Under such circumstances, it was no surprise that the word caste does not appear in any international human rights treaty. Dalit separatists and their allies have appealed for including caste discrimination as a form of racial discrimination vide Article 1(1) of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination 1965 (ICERD). However, we don’t find any parallels between race and caste.
Genomic studies have dismissed the notion of Aryan immigration [Y chromosomal analysis Sahoo S et al 2006, Mt-Dna analysis by Kivisild et al 1999]. A path-breaking study by Harvard and indigenous researchers on ancestral Indian populations says there is a genetic relationship between all Indians (Times of India, 25.9.2009). No wonder Andre Beteille, a leading sociologist, condemns this attitude of treating caste as a form of race (to be) politically mischievous; what is worse, it is scientifically nonsensical!
The association of the Vedic varna with skin colour, a 19th century fantastic racist interpretation of the Veda by Western Indologists, is today obsolete. Max Muller was the creator of the theory of the Aryan race who had invaded the native barbarians of India. In later years he deeply regretted the theory of race science, and instead suggested a schism between philology and ethnology. It was too late before he realized that language does not determine racial kinship.
…Trautmann in ‘Aryan and British India’ revisits the original theories and is astounded to discover the manner in which the dark skinned savage is extracted from a very recalcitrant Vedic text – the image is drawn from all but two passages referring to dark skin, and another referring to a flat nose [anasah] All these images, Trautmann identifies having been derived from a consistent degree of text-torturing both substantive and adjectival in character.
Finally, modern anthropological evidence overwhelmingly shows that caste divisions are not based on skin colour (p.62, David Keane, op.cit). This goes against the prime racial determinant of phenotypic appearance. In other words, it is impossible to determine caste by appearance.
Unfortunately, historians like Stanley Wolpert persist in perpetuating such egregious colonial historiography, while deliberately misreading the Indus archaeological evidence, to make the astounding claim that “the ruins of Harappa reveal the extensive history of oppression in India†(New History of India).
Castes are also determined by notions of purity and pollution, which is an idea alien to racial segregation. In fact, Scheduled Castes themselves are sub-divided into more than 300 sub-castes. That the idea of hierarchy is not alien to Scheduled Castes or tribals has been persuasively argued by Dipankar Gupta in ‘Interrogating Caste.’ Gupta also observes that caste identities get stronger as the unit of attachment gets more and more localized. Caste identities can be lost on inter-marriage, taking sanyasa or failing to observe daily rituals. However, racial identities are permanent and children of mixed marriages occupy intermediate positions in the race hierarchy.
…The claim to historical persecution of lower castes is considerably exaggerated. KM Panikkar wondered how, ever since Mahapadma Nanda from the fifth century, every known royal family has come from a non-Ksatriya, mostly lowly origin.
…The UNHRC has a dubious track record. It has not contested the exporting of dangerously divisive Church propaganda and pseudo-science to old colonial outposts in the third world. Peter Gill in ‘The Politics of AIDS’ has shown how millions of lives which could have been saved were sacrificed at the altar of the Church’s anti-condom propaganda. Teaching of creationist myths which hampers development of scientific temperament is on the rise in church-based schools. Histories are being re-written to whitewash the criminal history of Christianity, a term coined by German researcher Karlheinz Deschner, who has written nine mammoth volumes on the subject without any official funding or grant.
The Protestant religion, whose founder Martin Luther engineered the anti-Semitic arguments which would become central to Hitler’s war, is today fraudulently invoked as the harbinger of human rights. Cultural genocide in the Americas has been conveniently explained as an ecological disaster. The UNHRC has declined to intervene in Islamic practices which go against the UN declaration of human rights. The American ally, Saudi Arabia practices a most dangerous form of religious apartheid….
***
Shantanu – Saurav Basu surpasses himself with his present analysis of the evolution of the caste paradigm – as it is understood today. Remarkable writeup indeed. Thanks for drawing attention to it.
Personally I see the present UNHRC initiative as a move to browbeat, cajole a growing number of young Indians who are beginning to question western-imperial constructs. Just imaging the effect it would have on a impressionable Indians – who take their queue from international events – if they could be made to perceive their own country and traditions as a kind of modern day apartheid practicing South Africa. I think this is one issue where Hindu intellectuals and laymen alike – need to mobilize – before it is too late.
It is not surprising that the UNHRC has taken up cudgels against ‘castes’ that are one of the many points of demarcation in Hindu society. It should not be surprising that there are social and political divisions in any society: societies that have managed them well have more forward, some others have regressed, and in the case of Hindus stood still. The West’s definition of the practice is feudalism.
We can debate the fine points of the meaning of the imprecise meaning of words that describe out society which attributes to some higher status by virtue of their birth than others: Gandhi’s prejudice against Patel for the prime ministership might have got as much to do with caste prejudice as any other devilish grudge he carried in his heart. Even after we paid a heavy price for the prime ministership of Nehru, that delusion has refused to die as India elects one Nehru after another despite their evident failings.
Even if ‘caste’ is irrelevant in the urban setting, conflict is real with victims on both sides. Of course the Saudi version of Islam is more worthy of the UNHRC’s attention, but the world in need of its oil and petro-dollars is more circumspect in indicting it for its abuses. The Christian West for its part has ceased to be religious and to call it to account for its abuses would serve little purpose. It would also be rather ironic for the UNHRC to charge Christianity because its moral teachings has been so much responsible for the idea of law to govern individual and international affairs.
The readers who frequent this site are the most serious thinkers of Bharat. You will be failing in your duty if you preoccupy yourself with splitting hairs about the meaning of certain ill-defined words, rather than getting to the meat of the argument and dealing with it. The answer is simple, Hindus should renew the bonds of civility and friendship by putting any thought of another’s caste right out of their minds, and instead think of building on each others positive attributes and capabilities. The social prejudice of ‘caste’ should therefore be cast aside. That by itself will not deal with the politics of caste in Bharat which has done so much to validate the UNHR’s intervention in the matter. You will have to champion the cause of Bharat in its widest sense and not excuse yourself from the responsibility. The use of the word ‘caste’ for the Hindu practice has it a respectability it does not deserve. If you remember the word feudal in its place, you will very well understand how unacceptable it is.
Well said, Khandu. I am of one accord with you on your previous post.
@Patriot
I omitted to mention of ‘love’ because as Hindus, its identification as nothing more than reproductive has appeared to be dirty and best done out of the gaze of the world. The world knows that the greatest sacrifices are done for love, so in our language and habit it needs to be rediscovered in a way that Bollywood can never mange. It has to be more than a thing of fashion which much of Hinduism seems to have become confused with.
The readers who frequent this site are the most serious thinkers of Bharat. You will be failing in your duty if you preoccupy yourself with splitting hairs about the meaning of certain ill-defined words, rather than getting to the meat of the argument and dealing with it.
Very well said. I feel that the habit of splitting hairs about the meaning of certain ill-defined words applies to a lot of blogs/blog posts. Sometimes it may help to correct the other side, but the REAL problems still remains.
Another example is: I remember reading from the blog archives about getting all angry about punsavan and rebutting abdul kasem here:
https://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/02/25/abul-kasem-rebuttal-maliger/ but as pointed out by a commenter on that post, even the hindu jagruti website still “proudly” explains how to beget a son.
India needs a grass roots social work to slay this beast of caste system. Everything else is just cosmetic. Caste system in its current form is the biggest menace to our society. Urban/Rural setting, it does not matter. We are perpetually locked into thinking along the caste lines. I say this from personal experience. I know of very close well educated relatives who complains about how their neighborhood is getting “corrupted” since a few SC/STs have moved in. Doesn’t matter that the neighbor is a well educated university professor. They cannot look beyond these lines.
Look at the number of caste and subcaste options available for search on matrimonial sites [ HERE ] shows what society is actually demanding for. This site delivers what the customers are asking for. Commenters may suddenly jump to blame the politicians, government policies, nehru, gandhi, ambedkar, mayawati, arjun singh, vp singh, congress, communists, christians and [lets see who else we can pile here].
I would be really surprised if any commenter here actually supports the caste system. But I don’t think a person of higher caste feels the humiliation. We need some people who feel the pain (people who have actually suffered) to offer some perspective. It would be wonderful if someone not from lower caste can comment or better still has a guest post [I feel sick to even write this sentence].
Lets make an effort to change the tone of discussions on this blog dedicated to Bharat from pointing fingers/fault finding to discussing positive ideas. I wish the smart people from our country spend more time solving the real problem than fighting political perceptions. I don’t consider myself a person who has lot of great out-of-the-box ideas. It’s my opinion that we all vary in our capacity to come up with new solutions. May be, perhaps, may be we can discuss good positive ideas collectively to achieve more than our individual capacity. Why waste time pointing fingers and condemning each and everyone else on the planet?? What good can come about by repeatedly, day after day, bashing long dead humans [politicians, leaders, kings, etc] ? Yeah, it can help understand the problem, but after a while it gets tiring.
Shantanu, I earnestly congratulate you for your efforts to facilitate discussion on the serious topics. Your effort is definitely laudable. I understand that you are not responsible for tone of the discussions on the this blog.
Let’s move forward people.
Instead of focusing energy on politically correcting people, let me ask for well educated, well read commenters here for ideas to fight the caste beast.
My two cents:
– Promote inter-caste marriages. This has the potential of solving the problem over a few generations of mixing. Over a 50-100 years, who knows what your caste is? This will take away all the power of caste discrimination from politicians forever.
– Speak up your mind in a polite way to elders in your own family if they show any caste bias. Believe it or not, people’s bias shows up more often than you expect. Typical examples are when you hire a maid, get a dodhi, a doodhwalla, etc. Express your disagreement firmly but politely to elders.
– See if you can talk about it to your Guru, Swami or Pundit in your temple. The danger here is that the discussion gets hijacked to reservations/govt bias. But focus of the real issue of discrimination. Again, I speak from personal experience. In the temple of my family deity, brahmins invariable sit seprately when prasad [lunch] is served. Believe it or not, brahmins take their shirts off which shows the “sacred” thread which serves as a caste marker. This is one place where I haven’t mustered enough courage to debate the elders. Hopefully I will do so [more than once] before I die.
– Can you convince the guru or pundit you frequent to acknowledge the problem openly in his lectures? Can he acknowledge publicly the discrimination meeted out to the cleaners (or others) in his temple? Can he apologize publicly for past discrimination?
– Can you convince your guru to openly invite dalits inside your temple (inner core) during maha pooja or whatever?
– Can your pundit or guru publicly sit together with a person of lower caste and have lunch or dinner after a religious ceremony? This rarely happens right now in our society. Generally people who clean up the place and wash dishes in these ceremonies are from lower caste. They invariably sit outside and are served food separately. Again, I am speaking from personal experience. Can we convince our religious leaders to look at this issue?
– Can we reach a time when religious leaders belonging to different communities (Ex: brahmins, lingayats, gowdas etc in Karnataka) UNANIMOUSLY come out and PROMOTE inter-caste marriages? Can they make it “cool” or the “in-thing”?
– Can the numerous religious channels openly decry discrimination? Can leaders from different SECTS publicly mix together for religious celebrations and lead by example? Again from personal experience, this rarely happens in Karnataka. Among higher castes, shaivas and madhaws have different customs and separate celebrations. The leaders rarely appear together during festivities.
– One of the main reasons for division at grass root levels is: Veg/Non-veg food habits, Different style of rituals during religious occasions, Style of speaking languages, eating garlic/onion etc. These things seem petty to cosmopolitans, but these are real issues. Can we promote people with different habits to mingle more freely and easily?
We can start by talking to people we know. Friends and family. Most of my friends from upper castes do not support caste system in its present form. But they are too comfortable [in my opinion] mingling with people from their own caste. We MUST make deliberate effort to bridge the gap and invite people from other castes. Status quo is unacceptable. Such conscious deliberate effort will go a long way (over a few generations) to lessen the burden on our society.
People here are smarter and more well read than me. May be they can offer more ideas to address this issue. Let’s take the first step of acknowledging the problem. Next step would be to take conscious steps to eliminate discrimination. I may even go a little overboard in inviting people of all castes to your religious ceremonies and functions NOT just to mass lunches/dinners (marriage, thread ceremony etc).
People may think my suggestions are outrageous. But I hardly see educated people talking about solutions. They are pre-occupied discussing reservations and political games. We must solve the problem ourselves. Each one of us. Little by little. Status quo is unacceptable. Let us acknowledge the deliberate effort required by each one of us to combat this menace. People from upper castes owe it BIG to other citizens of this country. Lip service is no good.
I would love to hear suggestions from others. Enough of criticism.
I have one heartfelt sincere request for the educated, well read, well intentioned, smart people of my country. Kindly watch this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBxy1R0jitM
And then decide your priorities:
(a) Spend your time, energy, effort to fight the “distortions” about the varna/jati/caste ?
OR
(b) Spend your time, energy, effort to eliminate this menace from our society ?
Which option do you guys think requires our IMMEDIATE attention? Can we afford to beat around the bush on option (a) ?
All: Thanks for your comments…Will respond later…packed day today…
But just to be clear: I am completely and whole-heartedly against “caste system”, “jaat(i)-paat” and related social evils…
While it is important to be clear about the meanings (from an intellectual as well as sociological stand-point), this cannot be a cover for justifying these practices.
A better thread for debating the “caste system” is this:
Hinduism, “Caste System†and discrimination – Part II
The first part is here: Hinduism, “Caste System†and discrimination – Join the debate
Shantanu,
Thanks for the links. I went through the debate on the above posts. Debaters are always preoccupied with Hinduism, caste system, how it evolved, how MSM potrays it, catholic church, CPM, politics around it etc.
Did you miss that NO SOLUTIONS are offered to current situation? Its nothing more than just intellectual self-indulgence.
In my opinion: Very few people support caste based discrimination. But we are always more eager to provide a historical perspective and criticize everyone else.
In my opinion, this video really deserves attention:
. Could be FRONT and CENTER in one of your posts followed by a question:
We acknowledge that PRESENTLY there is a problem to solve:(caste based discrimination EXISTS even now in our society). Please offer on how you would help the current situation.
In my opinion, this social evil of gigantic proportions currently requires more attention than many other problems if India wants a positive future. I am hopeful that if we solicit solutions (than always critically beating the historicity of the problem and nitpicking each other endlessly about it) we can have a more positive impact in the long run. Learn from each other. Acknowledge the problem. Ask for what solutions people can offer.
May I call upon all the frequent debaters here to offer solutions: Rohit, Salil, Patriot, Indian, Dr. Sabhlok, gajanan, Khandu, Harapriya, jayadevan, Incognito, Dipinder, Ajitabh das, Shelke or anyone else. I am really eager to see the smart creative educated minds offer positive solutions to current status since they seem to understand the background of the problem much better than me.
Shantanu, I don’t expect you or any one to champion the Dalit cause or try to solve the problem overnight. I’m trying to use (hijacking?) popular forums on your blog to solicit solutions from people who are interested in creating a better tomorrow. Please, I’m eager to hear solutions to the current state of Indian society. There is enough discussion about evolution and history of the problem and criticism. Pardon my impatience 🙂
@ KK: Hurried comemnt…Will have a look at the vide…Fair point re. solutions…Am travelling intensively but will get back to this when I am back to normal next week…In the meantime, can others start pitching in with thoughts?
Thanks/
@KK
Can I cite some examples which I have widely observed in my own little way. Like, what upper caste thinks about lower caste and why do they think like that. It is not a direct approach to eradicate caste system but at least we know one of the reason why its prevailing in todays time.
Indian, yeah you can cite examples. But it is more important for us to think forward and offer solutions to get rid of this discrimination. Kindly suggest some.
Shantanu, Thanks for the reply. I will wait for you to check the video and offer your thoughts.
Silence from other frequenters regarding offering positive solutions speaks for itself. Just explains why missionaries are having a field day in India. Cry, shout all you want, this discrimination based on castes is the ground reality. If you cant have a grass roots movement lasting over a few generations, divided society and exploitation politics will be the order of the day. If you cant treat this root cause, you are just treating symptoms. No cure will last.
Based on my personal experience, it still exists in our society. Seems to me that people are busy fighting “intellectual” wars while conveniently ignoring harsh ground realities. Ignore all you want, wish it away all you want, caste based discrimination is deep rooted within our society. It will be long long long before ideas of social justice and equality reach the common man (>600 million in villages) in India. It’s like making a fuss about how internet has not reached rural India where neither water or electricity has reached.
Can anybody point me to any honest concerted grass roots effort being done by any of our leaders to get rid of this caste based division of society??
kk, but it’s not as if those who convert to Christianity are suddenly divested of their caste. The well-documented stories of separate pews/doors/cemeteries for “low-caste” converts to Christianity indicate that even the Christian clergy subscribes to the caste-system, even if they may falsely present their religion as egalitarian and conversion to their religion, a way out of caste discrimination.
Kaffir,
Thanks for pointing that out. It just shows how deep the caste identity is in our society.
-kk
@ KK: I finally managed to have a glimpse at the video (about 5 mins of it; I will see the rest later).
There are NO easy solutions…yes, this IS a problem and is possibly not acknowledged enough.
The “solution” should involve at least the following iniatives (these are quick thoughts, off the top of my head):
1] MASSIVE investment in sewerage and waste disposal infrastructure (so that the need for people to do the sewer jobs goes away)
2] MASSIVE investment in education and infrastructure in semi-urban and rural areas. Education is a pre-condition to employability and livelihood which is critical to a sense of self-respect.
3] Even more specifically, targeted investment for improving girl child/women’s health and education.
You may also find this article thought provoking.
More later.
I missed this one
kk, I have no problem with “caste” identity. I do have a problem with discrimination of others based on such identity. Humans all over the world in different societies have some basis of identity based on their work and/or achievements (intellectuals, scholars, blue-collar, white-collar and so on), and individuals who identify as such, do tend to self-congregate for self-interest, and it’s not uncommon for one group to make fun of others, especially those at the “bottom” of the hierarchy, like blue-collars, making fun of intellectuals.
The reason I pointed out the prevalence of caste system in Christianity was not to absolve the Indian society of the ill-effects of it, but to point out that this kind of discrimination is not just limited to Hindu society, though it doesn’t go to the extent of untouchability. Even Arab Muslims look down upon non-Arab Muslims, and Muslims in India have Ashraf/Ajlaf “caste”.
As Shantanu said, it’s not an easy problem to tackle, and will take concentrated efforts by many to remedy it.
Kaffir,
I have read such arguments before. In my humble opinion, as a side effect this kind of “rationalization” seriously weakens our will for fighting against this monster (although unintended). It is a difficult problem, but what are we doing to address it? I don’t see this problem going away in next 100 years at least. All I see intellectual educated elites of the country (who may happen to be from upper castes to begin with):
1.) DO NOT acknowledge the seriousness of the problem.
2.) DO NOT give it the priority it deserves.
3.) Basically whatever we are doing is HIGHLY inadequate.
Corollary of 3.) If you think we are doing enough, then you don’t understand the seriousness of the problem.
Shantanu,
Thanks for your reply. I think you missed the point:
1. That video is not just about building sewage disposal system. It just exposes how we think. Your reply seems to imply that until we build sewage system, let bhangis do the job (I know you don’t intend this). The example shown in the video is just a sample. I hope you see what I mean.
2. Yes, we need Massive investment in education. I agree completely. i also agree that women’s health and education are key to progress.
What I am questioning is this: What are we doing socially to change the hearts, minds and attitudes of people? Are we not serious about the future of our country? We make such a mountain our of a mole hill if some one interchanges caste/varna/jaati, but isn’t that tacit admission of the problem which we are so unwilling to address?
I am born in brahmin caste (whatever that means!). I have seen the attitude of many of my relatives in close quarters regarding this caste business. Even the infighting within different communities within brahmins disgusts me. I have seen what happens in temples and mathas . The ground realities are very harsh. If we are serious about having a place on the world map in the 21st century, we should have the guts to acknowledge the problem.
As of now, sorry to say, people from higher castes are not seriously addressing this social evil (this is based on my personal experience). It is only going to come back and bite us. Only a dalit can truly understand the discrimination meeted out to them. Get someone to write a guest post for this blog.
Again I ask: Can anybody point me to any honest concerted grass roots effort being done by any of our leaders to get rid of this caste based division of society??
Dear All: Pl. keep this doscussion focused on the distinction between caste/varna jatis etc.
For a broader discussion on this issue, please post your thoughts on this thread:
Hinduism, “Caste System†and discrimination – Part II
***
@ kk: Will respond later today.
@ KK –
Thanks for posting your thoughts – I agree with the following wholeheartedly:
“Promote inter-caste marriages. This has the potential of solving the problem over a few generations of mixing. Over a 50-100 years, who knows what your caste is? This will take away all the power of caste discrimination from politicians forever.”
Inter-caste marriages is a hugely powerful tool – and the enemy recognises this, too – that is why there are so many documented cases where folks are forced to leave their native villages, after an inter-caste marriage – as they are shunned by the rest of the village, seeking to perpetuate the caste hierarchy.
One of the key things to do to remove the power of the “pandit” is to legislate that registration of marriages under the law is the only recognised marriage – give primacy to civilian marriages, in this form, rather than the religious form.
The other key thing that will eventually lead to wiping out of the caste system is urbanisation – India currently has a lopsided structure where 65-70% of our population is rural. As that flips around, with development, and 65-70% of our population becomes urban, we will see that caste will keep playing a smaller role.
Third, legislate that classifieda and online marriage columns can not carry any caste connotations – make it harder for the casteists, in this form – then, they will be forced to rely on their local marriage mandalis, which have a much smaller reach – this could potentially lead to in-marrying casteists being wiped out by genetic disorders!!!
“- Speak up your mind in a polite way to elders in your own family if they show any caste bias. Believe it or not, people’s bias shows up more often than you expect. Typical examples are when you hire a maid, get a dodhi, a doodhwalla, etc. Express your disagreement firmly but politely to elders.”
Very well said – it is key that the new generation holds themselves to a higher standard than their parents and elders. This is one area where we should disobey the “Indian tradition” of blind respect to elders.
Cheers
I think responsibilities lies on both the parties of different caste towards the society. Its not only the responsibility of upper caste or other caste to think about it. Each party is as much responsible as other to fulfill expectation towards the society.
Though two people may be from different caste or same caste but what is common in both that can unite them is very important. Today(I am using the word “Today”) caste system can be described as, what I assume is something to do with high and low energy level of the people. Or in other word equal status.
Because, I have seen discrimination in same caste also. Everyone wants to marry off their daughter/or son in to good family. Why, what happened its the same caste?
Discrimination comes naturally not thought before. People liked to marry in the same caste because they are well aware of each other’s background, and family values directly or through other members of the community. First they think safety issue of their daughter and son.
To cite one such example. One boy and girl from same caste liked each other and thought they both are happy with each other. When their parents researched about each other’s family, they found that most of the family members were dropped out of the university and the only girl was doing her graduation. Boy’s family rejected this decision of boy and asked him to rethink. May be their expectation was different. Why this discrimination in same caste? Now the case has becomes more serious and setting a bad example for other people around him when the boy after coming this far himself feels he made a mistake as he is going through some rough time with his wife’s family.(One member of the wife’s family did fraud). Indirectly he suggests parents were right? So different people has different experience. One cannot decide this way is right and this way is wrong. People moves forward by learning their lessons through experience. So its only experiences that guide each of us in our journey not caste system if it is point of marriage. I repeat its equal responsibility of each and every caste towards the society.
Recently I happened to have discussion with one my Brahman (By Birth) friend. We debated the Varnas and Hinduism. Here the person was vehemently saying that the Varna is by birth and he will refrain from intercaste marriage as it will degrade his Varna(Though his marriage is a personal affair but mentality can kill the motive of shastra).
We have lots of Bharatiyas who feel this way. whereas there are others too who do not get involved into the discrimination but also make their stand clear by saying that the Varna is decided by Karma and Guna and not by birth. Anyone can be Brahman/Kshatriya if one wish to.
Then I coined the question as per Varnas Brahman should do the job of knowledge giving and earn livelihood by doing Bhikshuki. Also Brahman should not do job under anyone. Kshatriya should only fight, so how come it is not being followed by both so called high Varnas, in todays world?
There he left unanswered.
My only motive is to bring out the bad in us and change it for the betterment of Bharat. Bharat was never like this before but it will change for good.
Really unfortunate.
From ‘Rising casteism in Sikh society matter of concern’:
…Expressing concern over the decline in Sikh religion due to a number of ills that have cropped in, experts at the 24th annual seminar on ‘Guru Nanak and Origin of Gurdwara Institution’ organised by Guru Nanak Dev University here (Amritsar) on Monday (23rd Nov), said casteism was like plague for Sikh society.
…Prof Rattan Singh Jaggi, delivering the keynote address, said these days people do not follow the ideology of Guru Nanak and his message in our practical life, which was the cause of decline of the religion.
“Gurdwaras were the foundation of the Sikh religion, but we have forgotten the principle of equality. Now the downtrodden and people from so-called lower castes are being forced to build their separate gurdwaras. That is why they are attracted towards deras,†he said.
From an email by Premendra Priyadarshi-ji and responses by Bala Aiyer and Dr Gautam Sen*
***
Dear Friends,
I have recently uploaded my new article on origin of caste. It is basically a collection of quotes from authorities like Basham 1967 and Srinivas 1967, and also Romila Thapar 2002 (who had a change of mind at the end of her life).
The resoned view of these scholars is that caste and Varna are absolutely unrelated, and no attempt to fuse or confuse the two should be made.
I hope this will broaden our information about hisroy of caste.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/52693533/Origin-of-Caste
Post Script:
After reading this artiocle one of my friends asked “Can we ignre the Purusha Sukta?”
Some friends asked about Chandal in pre-Muslim periods.
Reply is :
We cannot and should not ignore the Purusha Sukta. That is about Varna. And we are talking about caste here, not varna. Caste is caste. And varna is varna.
Chandal was there at the time of Buddha, and Buddha died after eating uncooked pork at the hand of a Chandal. But authorities opine that Chandal cannot be equated with modern “untouchable” castes. Chandals were often those people who had been excommunicated from society because of some henious crime, like rape or murder etc. Other chandals were those who were excommunicated because they ate dog’s meat etc., or were violent people (Chand =cruel; in Persian Jallad is a cognate of Sanskrit Chandal).
But the untouchable castes of the modern times were untouchable by the reason of birth or heridity. This type of untouchability definitely started after 1000 AD. Basham clearly writes that Huen Tsang had not noted the type of caste system we see today. Megasthanese also has not mentioned such things.
Al-Biruni mentions caste system in Iran during Khusarow’s reign, who made it mandatory for everyone to follow the profession of the caste which one inherited from parents as a result of birth. Old Testament mentions divine orders, if one marries outside caste, one may be killed. Such caste system we never had in India. (Jat Panchayats have although done something like that recently).
We need to delink caste with varna in our minds, that is what the quoted scholars want to say. What Purusha Sukta says is about Varna, not caste.
Varna in not compasorily “endogamous” and “heriditary”, whereas “caste” by definition is an “endogamous heriditary” unit of society. Any class is not caste. Otherwise we can say that when we classify towns, we are talking about castes of town. Classes will always be there in all societies at all times. Varna was a term used for class in ancient India.
Manu also does not mention “jati”. To confirm this I went through all the verses of Manusmriti in original. The translations ahve however used the word “cast” for “varna” in English, something which has been considered wrong by Srinivas and Basham, and many more authorities.
It is interesting to note that while we get definite caste system only after Muslim arrival in India, such systems had been there in other nations long back. In Iran it had been there for at least since sixth century BC. When did it start in Japan, we do not know, but caste and untouchability persist even today in Japan, Sri Lanka and many other nations.
I do not wish to raise any finger on any other country or religion, because if I point one finger to others, the three fingers turn to me. Yet it is important that we should be aware of the fact that caste (especially untouchability ) has existed outside India much before it was noticed in India.
See Korean untouchability in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baekjeong
And the famous Burakumin untouchable group in Japan. Caste system was banned in Japan by Meiji in 1871. Yet it exists.
http://www.iheu.org/untouchability-japan-discrimination-against-burakumin
http://www.suite101.com/content/burakumin-a88427
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin
And in Sri Lanka:
http://asiarecipe.com/sricaste.html
In Thailand Buddhism, there is a different type of caste system. In that system, they have created a special paid class “Thai Brahmana Priest” who is responsible to perform ‘sanskaras’ in each individual’s life. These Brahmanas perform Vaidic rituals to the Buddhist householdersa, like death rituals etc.
http://www.mahidol.ac.th/thailand/brahmans.html
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/34596/blood-rites-spark-off-holy-row
http://cultureandreligionofthailand.blogspot.com/2007/09/kwan-duan-ceremony.html
And see how Thai Royal Family patronizes Hindu rituals and Brahmanas
http://www.earthportals.com/Portal_Messenger/chariotgalyani.html
I think this is enough for today.
***
Response by Bala Aiyer
This is a wonderfull explanation and study of Caste problems.
My own few words on this is as follows.
Varna is often mistaken for Kula and Jaathi and even people who know about this refuse to undertand or accept this
mainly for political purpose and get all the benefits of society in the name of Jaathi and Varna.
60 years of trying to eliminate the Jaathi name has not solved their problem and just got worse.
All us know and understand that Varna as in Purushasooktha and in Dharmasastra is different from Jaathi, now called Caste.
Varna is by Guna and in-born desires and ability to do the kind of work in a division of labor. Caste is purely by birth.
Before all discussions, we must first understand the Hindu [Indian] Society from ancient times and how they were organized and divided through traditions.
We must read the new genetic theories of the Indian Society which shows that ALL Indians are genetically same, all men carry similar Y Chromosome,
as different from all communities outside India and have two types of female [Mitochondrial DNA distributed all over the sub-continent.
Now, the division of society is by: VARNA, JAATHI, KULA, GOTHRA, REGION OF RESIDENCE, SAMPRADHAYA, LANGUAGE [AS MOTHER TONGUE] AND FAMILY TREE.
Here varna and Jaathi are different. What we are talking about is Brahmana Kula with the few Jaathis in it and NOT Brahmana Varna. [I know I am confusing you].
We have tall people and short people, light colored and dark colored, brilliant and intelligent and dull ones, rich and poor in every group and every state and in every Kula & Jaathi.
While 70% may be poor in SC&ST, about 60% are poor among Brahmins and other “upper Classes” – or even equal. There are more poor ones among Brahmins in this subgroup.
The four Varnas are interchangeable by Guna, education and in-born qualities – and not by birth alone. All Varnas are of equal status, not one superior to other.
there was never a fifth [untouchable] but the kings punished some Brahmana and Kshatriya for disobedience. But Kulas go by sampradhaya, traditions and culture.
Among Jaathis, which is only birth based, we must feel all are of equal status, but within that Jaathi some may be higher than some in status by their education and achievement [individually -not as a family]
If you consider all these and feel that you are just equal to all other Indians, there will be no problem. Now, among the various segments of the Brahmana Kula [and jaathis]
if we all get together for common cause and support, there is nothing wrong with that. 60 years of independence and 100 years of reform movements have not eliminated the Jaathi problems in India
because people did not see this differences and unity at the same time. The problem is some felt superior to others and some felt insulted by that.
If you eliminate that all Jaathis and Kulas can survive well. This is an organization of a society that evolves over centuries and can not be erased.
with best regards,
***
Response by Dr Gautam Sen here
***
Please note I have not explicitly taken permission from these authors to reproduce their emails. However I believe they make an important contribution to the debate & discussion and hence am taking the liberty of posting them here. Thanks.
Colour for Verna, in my view refers to the colouring of the mind, from objective reality to subjective reality. Buddha said I have attained Nibbana (Nibbana is Pali for Nirvana). Nibbana refers (I believe) to his ability to see things from an unconditioned mind, mind free from personality based observation. A person can develop this trait by developing witnessing state of mind..and being in it by will..permanently and thinking is a tool of choice.
Thanks for putting your article online
Excellent article, well worth a read: The Caste System: the Hindu’s Imaginary Achilles’ Heel by George Augustine, 02 Sep 2012
Hope to post some excerpts soon.
Comment received from hari singh kushwah, via iVarta:
:
your analysis of varna and jati in indian original concept is very near to the truth and reality.you have to look the period of rishi SWETKETU and his son UDDALAK.varna means option to be availed by you to serve the society as per your interest and ability.then you are bound to perform the dharma(duties) assigned by society for that varna. a individual person was free to choose the varna and get the appropriate training from the seniors of that varna.
jati is a precise distribution of works which were engrouped in a particular varna. They have earmarked so many related works under the resposibility and ability of that particular varna.jati indicates the jeevika(the profession you have adopted to earn the money or matter to pass the life safely and secure.)this was the real concept of varna and caste long long ago to run a dynamic strong protected secure prosperous society for the welfare of human kind.
jati word was designed a identity of work/profession to get jeevika for passing the life.varna is a grouping of castes(jeevikas).the combined varna and caste is a introverts peaceful society.
I beg pardon if any body feel unusual.it is the analysis only.
A brief extract from a recent article by Poulasta Chakraborthy…
Excerpt from Ending Ambedkar’s Reservations: This Community Does Not Want To Be Classified As Scheduled Caste Anymore By Aravindan Neelakandan,
October 09, 2017 (emphasis added):
…
Dr Krishnasamy had pointed out that it was the British, who in 1926-27 made the community SC – based solely on their deprived economic status. Here, he is perhaps providing a valuable hint to researchers in history who are open-minded for free frameworks.
Historian Mike Davis in his book, Late Victorian Holocausts, writes about how the British rule disrupted “a complex network of social production including communal irrigationâ€.
A few generations back, the Devendrakula Vellalars were the custodians of this crucial component of agriculture in the villages of Tamil Nadu. It was with the complete colonial overhaul of agricultural land ownerships that the community seemed to have suffered grave economic setbacks and subsequently categorised as a scheduled community. Antagonistic and inhuman attitudes of some of the communities that emerged dominant did not help the situation either.
The British also played their cards cleverly. They created fault lines by placing the Kallar community in criminal tribes and Devendrakula Vellalar in the scheduled community list. The ensuing enmity had gone on for almost a century and the dominant ‘progressive’ narrative put the blame on ‘Brahminical Hinduism’, resulting even in Islamist mass conversions in 1980s that shocked India. Except Dr M G Ramachandran, the Dravidian polity also perpetuated the fault lines created by the British. This often resulted in criminal and tragic loss of human lives, particularly of people belonging to Devendrakula Vellalar community.
…
Yet the community has been keen on reclaiming its cultural and spiritual roots. The demand for name change shows that the community is equipped with exhaustive documentation of inscriptional evidence, ritual connections to major temples with special honours reserved for the community for centuries, and so on. It is said that even during the colonial period, an attempt was made by the then economically marginalised community to regain their original name, which was brushed aside by a certain Dravidian ideologue, who was then monopolising and dominating the social reform scene.
…
Already there are voices from the Parayar community with exhaustive historical evidence to show that they are not culturally marginalised or backward but that they were equal creators and contributors if not principal contributors to Tamil Hindu culture. Parayar community, also known as Siva Sambavar, have been recorded even by colonial sources as being adept in astronomy, medicine and Sanskrit. The great leader of the community as well as one of the eminent social reformers of Tamil Hindu society M C Rajah in his book Oppressed Hindus had documented the cultural rights and privileges the community enjoyed in the pre-colonial society as well as the contribution made by the society. Umanathan Sakhya of the community, who is active on social media, raises this awareness and also decries the use of the term ‘Dalit’ or ‘marginalised’ to describe the community. He advocates reclaiming the spiritual heritage and community investing in entrepreneurial and educational development.
TADA Periyasamy, another Hindu scholar and activist of the community, has made a stellar contribution to reclaiming the cultural space that originally belonged to the community.
A few excerpt from Caste and The Irresponsibility of Intellectuals by Dr Prakash Shah, 9th Feb ’21:
Despite an immense amount of writing, one of the remarkable aspects of caste in India is that we have no knowledge of it. It is more than two hundred years since the British spoke about India’s religion as ‘Hinduism’ and the social structure to which it gave rise as ‘the caste system’. Yet just as with Hinduism, no-one can provide a seriously defendable theoretical account of the caste system. “Caste changes avatars in keeping with the changing sociopolitical scenario” says Ishita Banerjee-Dube in Caste in History (p. xv) but this merely disguises the problem in obfuscating language. Dunkin Jalki and Sufiya Pathan have even argued that no amount of checking the facts against theories of the caste system has achieved anything in terms of advancement in terms of our knowledge of it. They locate the reason in the nature of the entity the caste system is, and confirm SN Balagangadhara’s description of it an ‘experiential entity’ of the West. In other words, it is an entity that helps the West make sense of its experience of India while telling us nothing about India. That is why it is possible to argue through different routes that the caste system does not exist.
This sounds like a very odd claim when made to Indians, especially because jatis are a regular part of experience in their culture. They mistake the Western description of the caste system as a depiction of their experience because they wrongly assume that the Western experience is continuous with their cultural way of living with jatis. One test of the difference between the Indian and Western experience is to ask whether Indians feel they are immoral because they live in and with jatis. Other than some of those who have been through the Indian university system (though not all of them by far) as well as those who have experienced university education in the West, hardly any Indians will consider themselves or their fellow Indians immoral because of this fact.
…
The caste system, therefore, became part of a larger conceptual cluster through which the West understood India, which cluster does not exist in the Indian culture, except perhaps in small circles and then only in imitative rather than experiential form. Today these themes remain present in secularised form. The existence of the caste system is a ‘fact’ in the theories about India without which India seems incomprehensible to Westerners. This explains how all concerned British public institutions have taken to declaring the immorality of caste and argued for legal measures to be taken against it, even when it was otherwise obvious that they cannot identify what caste and the caste system are, and that evidence to justify legislation was lacking.
Adding this link here for the record: The Sanatana Conception of Skin Colour Contrasted with The Biblical Darkness of Racism by Sandeep Balakrishnan
Adding this twitter thread by Aabhas Maldahiyar here for reference