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	<title>&#124;&#124; Satyameva Jayate &#124;&#124; &#187; Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism</title>
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		<title>Max Mueller &amp; Correcting History: One Step at a Time</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/10/20/max-mueller/</link>
		<comments>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/10/20/max-mueller/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Ancient Indian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[British Rule in India]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Distortions, Misrepresentations about India]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Indian History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Asiatic Society]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dr Aich]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Lies with Long Legs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Max Mueller]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Prodosh Aich]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[William Jones]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[I read this interview of Dr Prodosh Aich a few months back but did not post it as I wanted to get my hands on his book. &#8220;Lies on Long Legs&#8221; is a painstakingly researched book that goes back to primary sources in an effort to find out more about the &#8220;History&#8221; of India &#8211; as we know about it today. Who were these people who &#8220;authored&#8221; this &#8220;history&#8221;? What was the basis of their interpretations? What were their intentions? What was their training? What were the factors that might ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align: left;">I read <a href="http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=11325" target="_blank">this interview of Dr Prodosh Aich</a> a few months back but did not post it as I wanted to get my hands on his book.<strong> &#8220;Lies on Long Legs&#8221; is a painstakingly researched book that goes back to primary sources in an effort to find out more about the &#8220;History&#8221; of India</strong> &#8211; as we know about it today. <strong>Who were these people who &#8220;authored&#8221; this &#8220;history&#8221;? What was the basis of their interpretations? What were their intentions? What was their training? What were the factors that might have coloured their understanding and narrative? </strong>Dr Aich has attempted to answer these questions in his work.  In the interview (excerpts below), Dr Aich labels Max Mueller a &#8220;swindler&#8221; and William Jones a &#8220;fraud&#8221;. Amongst the many startling things I learnt was that Max Mueller apparently had no formal training in Sanskrit.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">What Dr Aich has done &#8211; going back to the roots &#8211; reminds me of the painstaking work of <a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/11/07/the-biggest-whitewash-in-indian-history/" target="_blank">Dr V S Godbole &#8211; who has gone back to the &#8220;roots&#8221; to unearth more information about Taj Mahal</a> &#8211; which to the best of my knowledge has not been challenged so far. Sadly, his work has been completely ignored by media. I hope Dr Aich fares better. Below, some excerpts from the interview with Dr Prodosh Aich (I&#8217;ll be posting a few excerpts from the book later on). The book is available for <a href="http://www.samskritibookshelf.com/bookshelf/general/lies-with-long-legs/" target="_blank">purchase online via Samskriti</a>.  In the meantime, read on (emphasis mine)&#8230;</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">*** <strong>Excerpts begin </strong>***</p>
<p><strong>Question: Your book &#8216;Lies with long legs&#8217; has recently been published. What is this about?</strong></p>
<p><strong>Answer: Whatever, we know about discoveries, scholars,  scientists, are mostly not true.</strong> For example, when you get a book today there are references and these references go back 10, 20 or 30 years. They don&#8217;t go back beyond that. On every page, one finds quotations but you will never find that a quotation has been challenged. One never checks whether that quotation is correct or not. It is just accepted. What ever is printed is accepted.</p>
<p><strong>Q: So every word is taken as a gospel?</strong></p>
<p>A: No, not as a gospel. It has been accepted in the academic world. And if you have 20 books on one subject, you can be sure that there would be another 20 books on the same subject but with almost same references. They will never go back to roots. <strong>What, I have done.  I have tried to question. I  put , to start with, a simple question. &#8220;Well you are telling me this. How do you know that it is true&#8221;? Then I look into the bibliography of these books&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Q: So, you have done a research on India?</p>
<p>A: No,  that is not correct. As a matter of fact, I have not done any research. I wanted to know, who are these Aryans, Indo-Europeans and Indo-Germans and then tried to find out answers in the reference books and literature&#8230;I was very astonished to see that &#8220;Indo-Aryan&#8221; (the word) is very young. It came in vogue in the 19th century rather was invented in the second half of the19th century.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Lies-With-Long-Legs.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-11820  aligncenter" title="Lies With Long Legs" src="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Lies-With-Long-Legs.jpg" alt="" width="103" height="138" /></a></p>
<p><strong>Q: Max Mueller is a very renowned name in India. We have a Max Mueller Institute here where German language is taught and various other activities are conducted. In my understanding, Max Mueller had a command on Sanskrit language and he translated Vedas and other works of Sanskrit. How did he come to acquire immense knowledge of the ancient language which incidentally was not a spoken language?</strong></p>
<p>A: Max Mueller. It is not his name. His name was Friedrich Maximillan Mueller. He did not publish in German. He did not get a job in Germany. He got a job with the East India Company in England. Most of his writings are in English. <strong>He was neither a scholar nor (did) he knew Sanskrit</strong>. He was a swindler.</p>
<p><strong>Q: You call him a swindler?</strong></p>
<p><strong>A: I call him a swindler. I can provide  proofs in support of my assertion. I can reason it out  also. Max Mueller had assumed that he was a scholar</strong>. From his own autobiography, from biographies written by his son and wife, from other biographies, from his other writings, and from his letters, we can reconstruct his life from birth to his death. <strong>After passing the High School, he never appeared in any examination rather never cleared any examination</strong>&#8230;Yet he calls himself a Master of Arts (MA). His wife calls him a Doctor of Philosophy. His wife maintains that he was a Ph. D. from the Leipzig  University. <strong>There is no record at the Leipzig University or any proof that he appeared in any examination there</strong>.</p>
<p>&#8230;Q: OK, but there are people who without going to school or university acquire knowledge of languages. So what about his knowledge of Sanskrit.</p>
<p>A: That is a different issue but one can&#8217;t describe oneself as a scholar or ascribe degrees to oneself without clearing  any examination&#8230;.Max Mueller never came to India&#8230;So the question arises that if had not learnt Sanskrit in India then he must have learnt it in Europe. So this is another part of my book &#8216;Lies with long legs&#8217; as we have tried to find out who was the first person, the pioneer, who taught Sanskrit in Europe.</p>
<p>Q: So who was this person?</p>
<p>A: He was a nobody, He was a simple boy of 18 when he came to India as an ordinary soldier. He completed is term and roamed around in India and then reached France. There he said that he knew Sanskrit. Quality of his knowledge of Sanskrit was that he knew the Devnagri alphabet well  but beyond that he could not make  a distinction between the language and script.</p>
<p>Q :What was his name?</p>
<p>A: Alexander Hamilton was his name.  There is a long story about him in the book because people said that he was a great Sanskrit scholar. So we traced his roots also. <strong>The most interesting thing while doing this book was that though all the material is available in the libraries,  no one else  worked on the available material. If some one claimed that a he was a scholar then nobody questioned that claim. Everyone started saying that the person was a scholar as it is written in printed words. It was presumed that</strong><strong> if one taught Sanskrit to others then he knew Sanskrit.</strong></p>
<p>&#8230;Q: Sanskrit was never a spoken language so how can this be learnt without a teacher? The language had to be learnt systematically for 6 to 7 years so that one could translate works like the Vedas?</p>
<p>A: It is not your opinion alone  Even some European thought the same. <strong>Unfortunately those who learnt Sanskrit systematically did not teach the language in Europe. Heinrich Roth was one such person who came to India and landed in Goa and from there was transferred  to Agra. There he became the principal of a Jesuit college.  He belonged to Jesuit order. In Agra, he learnt Sanskrit for six years, mastered the language so well that he &#8220;discussed&#8221; with the Brahmins in Sanskrit. Having understood the importance of Sanskrit, he compiled  a grammar book with Latin explanatory notes added to it. As a matter of  fact, he produced a simplified version of Panini&#8217;s grammar</strong>&#8230;The Sanskrit grammar vanished in the Vatican library. It was traced in 1988 and all Indologists agree that quality of this grammar book was far superior to the ones upon which Sanskrit was being taught in Europe. <strong>Others did not learn Sanskrit properly but they stoutly maintained that they knew Sanskrit</strong>.</p>
<p>&#8230;Europeans who never came to India but learnt Sanskrit alphabets  and saw Bhagvat Gita and recognised its alphabets. They could possibly recognise words but they did not understand it. So they would collect more book and apply their Christian mind and say that this is not logical so it has to be this or that. In this process, they were also trying to compile a dictionary. There was never a Sanskrit dictionary as grammar is the key to Sanskrit language. But they were trying to compile a dictionary word by word.</p>
<p>So in this way they have transported a type of Sanskrit to Europe where I  have doubts that it is Sanskrit at all. But <strong>the tragic part is that this Sanskrit has been imported  back to India.</strong> This is what we learn in India with the help of the Sanskrit dictionaries. The standard dictionary of Sanskirt here is of Sir Monier Monier who also never came to India before compiling his dictionary in 1854. He collected all materials and prepared  a dictionary diligently. But this dictionary was not available to Max Mueller. Max Mueller had only one dictionary written by one Wilson. He also stayed in Calcutta. He was a medical doctor. He served as Director of a mint because he had some knowledge of chemicals. He interacted with Bengali Pundits and he prepared the dictionary with the help of the Pundits of Calcutta in as late as 1819 when the first Sanskrit dictionary came out.  At best, Max Mueller could have used this dictionary. Max Mueller was at a place where Wilson taught Sanskrit. Max Mueller observes in his biography that Wilson did not have enough knowledge of Sanskrit.</p>
<p>Q: So you make a dictionary without learning a language?</p>
<p>A: Possibly one could make a dictionary.  Definitely not a good  one.   If you went to China and you met some Chinese and understood what they said and you understood it then make a dictionary.</p>
<p>Q: But with this kind of dictionary, one can&#8217;t translate?</p>
<p>A:  Definitely not. But did he translate? In order to translate, one has to have a  command on both languages. I think he had command on German and English. But whatever you translate from Sanskrit and even if one has command on both languages, it would be reflection of one&#8217;s mind. <strong>Max Mueller  did not understand Sanskrit. He had never read a Sanskrit text.  He had read Sanskrit text with the help of translation made by others.</strong></p>
<p style="text-align: center;">*** <strong>Excerpts end</strong> ***</p>
<p>Read the <a href="http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=11325" target="_blank">full  transcript of the interview here</a>.</p>
<p>P.S. In this context, another interesting excerpt from <a href="http://www.trjawahar.com/printer.php?id=16344  " target="_blank">Founding Fathers of Astronomy</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>In these days of pseudo-secular anti-Hindu India, being actively promoted by the Government of India, scholarship only means being at home with what is written by the western scholars, who have during the last 250 years, continuously discredited the ancient part of Indian culture and tried their very best to bring down the dates to suit their colonial, Christian and now political purpose. If we carefully look into the works of the Englishmen and Europeans published during the 167 years of uninterrupted reign from Warren Hastings in 1772 to the beginning of World War II, for example, hundreds of books were published related to the topics of Indian religion, history and culture, we will find that accounts for all of those works were maliciously falsified and manipulated according to a definite plan as desired by the British Government. <strong>William Jones laid the foundation in 1784 AD for the Western History of Ancient India. He deliberately created the problem of the two Chandra Guptas and thus reduced by 1200 years the chronology of India. </strong></p>
<p>This pattern of distortion was continued and perfected by Lord Macaulay, who financed Max Muller (1823-1900) to translate the Rig Veda in a way that would destroy the beliefs of the newly English-educated Indians in their ancient literature. Max Muller agreed to that undertaking for the sake of Christianity and not for advancing the cause of sacred Vedic Heritage. Likewise the British Government——very much like the anti-Hindu and anti-National Government of India actively and openly manipulating the pro-Islamic and pro-Christian NCERT Textbooks today—then paid Pundit Taranath, Sanskrit Professor in Calcutta Sanskrit College, to misinterpret certain words of the Vedic Samhita that should reflect the meaning according to Max Muller’s translation of Rig Veda. <strong>As part of this mischievous political arrangement, Taranath compiled a huge dictionary called VACHASPATHYAM IN 1863 AD. He artfully corrupted the meaning of certain Vedic words</strong>. The pseudo-secular Anti-Hindu fake scholars of today are still using this Dictionary born out of colonial politics as their Bible for reference and political research today!</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>Related</strong> Posts: <a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/11/15/aich-we-are-know/ " target="_blank">Quote of the week: “We are, what we know…</a>” and <a title="Thus a system was created..later identified..as “corruption” in the Third-World" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/11/02/corruption-british-roots/" target="_blank">Thus a system was created..later identified..as “corruption” in the Third-World</a></p>
<p>Also read: <a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/07/10/shuddho-aushuddho/" target="_blank">Shuddho – Aushuddho: Distorting History, One Step at a Time</a>, <a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/06/24/correcting-history-2/" target="_blank">Correcting “History”: One Step at a Time</a> and <a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/11/10/correcting-history/" target="_blank">Correcting “History” – one bit at a time</a></p>
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		<title>Dharma-Himsa Paramo Dharma..</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/08/10/dharma-himsa/</link>
		<comments>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/08/10/dharma-himsa/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hindu Dharma]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ahimsa]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hitopadesha]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Pancha Tantra]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Panchatantra]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Param Dharma]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/?p=12333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excerpts from an essay by Swami Chinmayananda on non-violence and righteous violence titled, DHARMA HIMSA TATHAIVA CA (emphasis added):

Personally, I am no advocate of violence. But violence, too, has its rightful place in life, life does not preclude death. The average Indian has been moulded into a particular national mentality of quixotic tolerance. His attitude is shaped into its distinct pattern by the ideologies and moralities preached in our national literature. And no single work in our classics has gained such a wide influence on our people as the Bhagawad ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excerpts from an essay by <strong>Swami Chinmayananda on non-violence and righteous violence</strong> titled, <a href="http://www.chinmaya.org.nz/Articles/Swami%20Chinmayananda/11.htm " target="_blank">DHARMA HIMSA TATHAIVA CA</a> (emphasis added):</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Swami-Chinmayananda.jpg"><img class="aligncenter size-medium wp-image-12335" title="Swami Chinmayananda" src="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Swami-Chinmayananda-213x300.jpg" alt="" width="128" height="180" /></a></p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Personally, I am no advocate of violence. But violence, too, has its rightful place in life, life does not preclude death</strong>. The average Indian has been moulded into a particular national mentality of quixotic tolerance. His attitude is shaped into its distinct pattern by the ideologies and moralities preached in our national literature. And no single work in our classics has gained such a wide influence on our people as the Bhagawad Gita: and <strong>in, this century, no other single message had such a universal appeal to our countrymen as the single line, &#8220;<em>Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah</em>&#8220;</strong> &#8212; &#8220;Non &#8211; Violence is the greatest Dharma.&#8221;</p>
<p>This line in its over &#8211; emphasis, has sapped both initiative and energy in our millions, and, instead of making us all irresistible moral giants, we have been reduced to poltroons and cowards. And banking on this cowardly resignation of the majority, a handful of fanatics have been perpetrating crimes which even the most barbarous cave dwellers would have avenged. To clothe our weaknesses, we attribute to them glorious names and purposefully persuade ourselves to believe that they are brilliant ideologists !</p>
<p>Let us for a moment go to the original sacred verse and investigate the significances of the moral precept: <em>Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah</em>. <strong>This is the opening line of a stanza, and the very next line reads: <em>Dharma himsaa tathaiva cha</em>. &#8220;So too is all righteous violence.</strong>&#8221; Indeed, non &#8211; violence is the supreme policy to be adopted by man to foster enduring peace in the world; but there are certain dire moments in the life of individuals, as of nations, when we will have to meet force with force in order that justice be done.</p>
<p>To every individual his mother, wife and children are the nearest dependents and to guard their honour and life is the unavoidable first moral duty of each head of the family. This is an obligation whether the victim be a member of the majority or of the minority class within a country, province or city.</p>
<p><strong>By the over &#8211; emphasis laid on non-violence we have come to witness the pathetic situation of today</strong>, when thousands, in cowardly fear take to precipitate flight, leaving their innocent children to be butchered and their unarmed helpless women to be dishonoured or converted or killed. Under the cloak of glorified non &#8211; violence, an entire nation of cowards fly from their homes, when a small sect of fanatic barbarians boldly stalk in and out of their open undefended thresholds to kill, to rape, and to loot. When will we learn to fully interpret our Vedas, scriptures and Upanishads. If only we all learn that dharma &#8211; himsa is equally noble as ahimsa.</p></blockquote>
<p>Comments, thoughts welcome&#8230;and while on this, <strong>don&#8217;t forget to read the <a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/05/kashmir-bjp-vasudhaiv/" target="_blank">real story behind Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam</a>. </strong></p>
<p><strong>Related </strong>Posts: The series on &#8220;<a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/02/13/dharma-part-3/" target="_blank">Understanding Dharma</a>&#8221; and <a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/10/09/raj-dharma-dr-iyer/" target="_blank">Raj Dharma</a></p>
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		<item>
		<title>Dalit Muslims, Caste and Sociological Phenomenon</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/04/13/dalit-muslims-caste/</link>
		<comments>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/04/13/dalit-muslims-caste/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hindu Social System]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Reservations, Affirmative Action]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Caste System]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dalit Christians]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dalit Muslims]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jati Pratha]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Varna System]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Varnas]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/?p=11242</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear All: I am reproducing below a brief but very interesting email exchange between Sh Yoginder Sikand and Sh Jay Vachani precipitated by a recent article in Tehelka by Sh Sikand, titled, Converted dalits get no justice. In the article, Sh Sikand has suggested that &#8220;Muslim and Christian Dalits should be given reservation just like those who embraced Sikhism and Buddhism&#8220;. This argument is not new but Sh Vachani has done a fine job of exposing the core of it &#8211; viz. caste being a sociological phenomenon&#8230;Pl read on (Thanks ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear All: I am reproducing below a brief but very interesting <strong>email exchange between Sh Yoginder Sikand and Sh Jay Vachani precipitated by</strong> a recent article in Tehelka by Sh Sikand, titled,<strong> <a href="http://www.tehelka.com/story_main49.asp?filename=Ne040211PROSCONS.asp " target="_blank">Converted dalits get no justice</a></strong>. In the article, Sh Sikand has suggested that &#8220;<em>Muslim and Christian Dalits should be given reservation just like those who embraced Sikhism and Buddhism</em>&#8220;. This argument is not new but Sh Vachani has done a fine job of exposing the core of it &#8211; viz. caste being a sociological phenomenon&#8230;Pl read on (<em>Thanks to Sanjay for bringing to to my attention and for getting Sh Vachani&#8217;s permission to reproduce the exchange here; I have taken out email addresses to protect privacy; emphasis is mine</em>).</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">*** Email exchange arranged chronologically (oldest email first) ***</p>
<p><strong>First email from Jay Vachani</strong></p>
<p>Dear Mr Sikand, This is with reference to your article &#8220;Converted Dalits get no justice&#8221; in the 2nd April 2011 issue of Tehelka magazine. I&#8217;m confused by your position. Perhaps you can help me understand.</p>
<ol>
<li> It is your position that the caste system is on account of Hindus. The Indian constitution Article 25 (2) (b) defines Hindus as those who also profess the Sikh, Jain or Buddhist faiths. If that is indeed the case, then what is wrong with say, a Buddhist scheduled caste (synonymous with a Hindu scheduled caste under the constitution) receiving benefits under the constitution and the law? If the caste system is an exclusively Hindu phenomenon, then by definition, it should not be applicable to the &#8220;egalitarian&#8221; Islamic and Christian faiths since they don&#8217;t recognise the caste system. Or am I missing something here?</li>
<li>On the other hand, if the caste system is in fact prevalent among Muslims as well as <a href="http://stateless.freehosting.net/Caste%20in%20Indian%20Muslim%20Society.htm" target="_blank">you have demonstrated in your article</a> &#8211; where you have claimed that the practice of caste discrimination among Muslims is on account of incorrect applications of fiqh and incorrect interpretations of the Koran &#8211; then shouldn&#8217;t the removal of social ills be done from WITHIN the community itself since Islam doesn&#8217;t, apparently, sanction any such social discrimination?  By making a case for Muslim scheduled castes, are you not seeking the approval, sanction &amp; perpetuation of  a caste system which is highly anti-Islamic, according to you?</li>
<li>In your interview titled &#8220;<a href="http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-sikander030404.htm" target="_blank">Politics of Conversion</a>&#8221; with one Rashid Salim Adil in Counter Currents, you have not challenged any of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims" target="_blank">claims made by Mr Adil  viz. on the Muslim caste system</a>,  or his incredible interpretation of  Dr Ambedkar&#8217;s views on Muslim society when in fact Dr Ambedkar is on record saying &#8220;writing that the social evils in Muslim society were &#8220;<em>worse than those seen in Hindu society</em>&#8221; (in &#8220;Pakistan and the Partition of India&#8221;). That&#8217;s your prerogative as an interviewer. But then they lead one to ask the following questions:</li>
<li>Do you agree with the point made by Rashid Salim Adil that &#8220;Islam can offer the Dalits a means to their salvation, freeing them from caste slavery? If yes, then why isn&#8217;t it a  call for conversion? If no, then clearly, Islam isn&#8217;t the answer either.</li>
</ol>
<p>I hope, but am not hopeful, you will respond. Jay Vachani</p>
<p><strong>***</strong></p>
<p><strong>Reply by Yogi Sikand</strong></p>
<p>Dear Jay, Thanks for your mail.</p>
<p>The Indian Constitution clubs Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains along with the Hindus for purposes of personal law, but this does not mean that these communities are in fact Hindus.</p>
<p>The caste system may be Brahminical/Hindu in its origins, but because the majority of non-Hindus in India are of Hindu origin, they, too are, affected by it. In their case, it exists without any theological sanction&#8211;as a sort of sociological phenomenon. There is thus every reason why it is imperative for the state to extend the same affirmative policies to Christian and Muslim Dalits groups as apply to the so-called &#8216;Hindu&#8217; Dalits, irrespective of their theological differences.</p>
<p>As for my interview with Adil, which I did a great many years ago actually, my views have changed&#8212;I think the dominant ways of understanding Islam, as with other religions, are problematic</p>
<p>Yoginder</p>
<p>***</p>
<p><strong>Reply by Jay Vachani</strong></p>
<p>Dear Mr Sikand, Thank you for the prompt response.</p>
<p>If I understand you right, are you making the point then that the so-called caste based discrimination is a sociological phenomenon (as many Hindu scholars have pointed out as a corruption of the jati and varna system) and not a religious one? If that is indeed the case, then shouldn&#8217;t all forms of sociologically originated discrimination (eg women&#8217;s rights, rights of homosexuals) need to be dealt with? In other words, shouldn&#8217;t there be a uniform treatment of the issue of the discriminated? Shouldn&#8217;t there be a uniform civil law? The secular liberal West has uniform civil laws and all citizen&#8217;s rights are protected/ discriminated equally under those laws.</p>
<p>Am very curious to know your views on this.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p><strong>Reply by Yogi Sikand</strong></p>
<p>Dear Jay,</p>
<p>Thanks for yuor mail</p>
<p>Caste is not a distortion of the varna system, unlike what Brahminical &#8216;scholars&#8217; claim. Moreover, jati-varna discriminationa dn degradation is clearly part of what is called Hinduism, and so it is, at least in the Hindu case, both a sociological as well as theological issue.</p>
<p>I don;&#8217;t see how the issue of uniform personal law relates to the issue of reservations&#8211;which is, as far as I could understand&#8211;a link that you want to establish.</p>
<p>Yogi</p>
<p>***</p>
<p><strong>Reply by Jay </strong><strong> Vachani</strong></p>
<div id="_mcePaste">Dear Mr Sikand,</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">My question quite simply this: is discrimination based on caste essentially a sociological issue or a theological one? If as you say, it is sociological then doesn&#8217;t it stand to reason that all discrimination based on sociological factors ought to be equally banned? Hence the point about a uniform law that ensures that India is a truly secular, liberal, modern nation like many Western democracies. Maybe I&#8217;m missing a point here.</div>
<div>If on the other hand, the discrimination is not sociological but essentially theological, then positive discrimination ought to be used to benefit only those affected by the theology. Shouldn&#8217;t it?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">Perhaps you can help clarify your position with specific reference to the questions above?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">Look forward</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">Jay</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">PS:Let us not digress on whether Brahminical scholars (scholars &#8211; with or without quotes) were accurate in their readings or not. All of us have biases and they show up rather obviously.</div>
<p style="text-align: center;">***</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Converted-Dalits-Tehelka-Sikand.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-11251  aligncenter" title="Converted Dalits Tehelka Sikand" src="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Converted-Dalits-Tehelka-Sikand-300x250.jpg" alt="" width="180" height="150" /></a></p>
<p>As of 11th April, I am not aware of any follow-up or any other response from Sh Sikand.  Comments/thoughts welcome, as always.</p>
<p><strong>A few related </strong>Posts:  <a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/11/13/christian-converts/">Who are these “Christian Converts”?</a></p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/11/02/joke-indian-media-11/">Who are these “caste Hindus”?</a> ,   <a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/">A fresh look at Reservations and Quotas – Part II</a> ,</p>
<p style="text-align: left;"><a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/03/24/caste-system-discrimination-2/">Hinduism, “Caste System” and discrimination – Part II</a> and <a rel="bookmark" href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/06/09/british-caste-system/">The British ‘Caste System’ – excerpts</a></p>
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		<title>Jeffrey Armstrong on Vedas, Vimanas and Devas</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/02/11/jeffrey-armstrong-interview/</link>
		<comments>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/02/11/jeffrey-armstrong-interview/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hindu Dharma]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sanatana Dharma]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Science & Mathematics in Ancient India]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Spirituality & Philosophy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jeffrey Armstrong]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/?p=10239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks to Parthasarathy-ji for alerting me to this recent interview of Jeffrey Armstrong. I found it fascinating for the breadth of subjects it covered and the insights it offered. Some excerpts below (emphasis added). As some of you may know,
Jeffrey Armstrong is an award-winning author of numerous books on Vedic knowledge..He is a philosopher, practitioner and teacher of the Vedas for the past 40 years. He has degrees in Psychology, History &#38; Comparative Religions, and Literature and had a successful career as an executive in Silicon Valley before turning to ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to Parthasarathy-ji for alerting me to this recent <strong>interview of Jeffrey Armstrong</strong>. I found it fascinating for the breadth of subjects it covered and the insights it offered. <strong>Some excerpts below</strong> (emphasis added). As some of you may know,</p>
<blockquote><p>Jeffrey Armstrong is an award-winning author of numerous books on Vedic knowledge..He is a philosopher, practitioner and teacher of the Vedas for the past 40 years. He has degrees in Psychology, History &amp; Comparative Religions, and Literature and had a successful career as an executive in Silicon Valley before turning to teaching full time. Jeffrey Armstrong (Kavindra Rishi) is the founder of VASA – Vedic Academy of Sciences &amp; Arts in Vancouver Canada. ..(and) a global advocate for the Sanatana Dharma Culture.</p>
</blockquote>
<p style="text-align: center;">***</p>
<p><strong>Daily Bell: How did you get interested in Indian culture and religion?</strong></p>
<p><strong>Jeffrey Armstrong:</strong> Religion is the wrong word to use for India&#8217;s teachings. Religion is a word that is more accurately applied to the Middle Eastern Abrahamic cultures. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are religions. The origin of the word religion, from the Latin, is re-legare (a legalistic system of rules given by God) or &#8216;bound by rules.&#8217; Re = tied up or connected by, and ligion = legare = ligaments = to tie, bind or bandage. The usual idea is that the practitioner of a religion is bound up in rules or laws. This especially applies to the three Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, whereas the spiritual practices of India are called a Dharma Culture. <strong>The main difference is religions generally have one book of rules and stories whereas a Dharma culture has a library of spiritual and material knowledge aimed at understanding who we really are and how to properly use everything around us</strong>&#8230;</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Jeffrey-Armstrong.jpg"><img class="size-full wp-image-10241  aligncenter" title="Jeffrey Armstrong" src="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Jeffrey-Armstrong.jpg" alt="Jeffrey Armstrong" width="150" height="150" /></a></p>
<p><strong>Daily Bell: What do you believe in and why? What application does it have to the West?</strong></p>
<p><strong>Jeffrey Armstrong: My lifelong effort has been to try to find things that are universally true rather than relatively true</strong>&#8230;</p>
<p>What we now call the West is the outgrowth of a tribal or city/state approach to living on the planet. This means if you take care of your tribe, you are seen as good. So, to all those tribes who were fighting against each other for thousands of years in a series of wars, that essentially meant that as long as the spoils of the wars were brought back and shared amongst the tribe, they were good. Alexander the Great was a prime example of this. He went out to rape, pillage and conquer, and was a monster to the rest of the world, but was considered great by his people, hence the name&#8230;India, on the other hand, is the only culture of its size in the world that has never gone out and tried to spread its beliefs by war. In fact, it has consistently given shelter to anyone from any culture. So, to compare histories, the west is a competitive, war-based civilization and India has been a nurturing, cooperation-based civilization on an epic scale&#8230;</p>
<p><strong>Daily Bell: Are there lost Indian cities under the sea?</strong></p>
<p>Jeffrey Armstrong: There is at least one that was discovered in 2001 in the Bay of Cambay, which is off the west coast of India. In a routine, environmental scan of the bottom of the sea, a city was discovered which turns out to have the largest megalithic stones of any city in ancient times; artifacts were dated to about 10,000 years ago. ..The city sits in about 150 feet of water, which indicates it was built before the last melting of the polar ice caps, which most geologists date conservatively at about 12,000 years ago. It appears to have had a building format similar to the cities of Harappa and Mohendro Daro (3000-5000 BCE), which were previously thought to be the oldest cities of India ..But this underwater city off the coast of India suggests, conservatively, 15,000 years of sophisticated human history in India.</p>
<p><strong>Daily Bell: Did the ancient Indians know how to fly and to build flying machines? Are there replicas of these machines on the tops of ancient temples?</strong></p>
<p>Jeffrey Armstrong: On the latter question, I am not sure I have heard that there are replicas of the airplanes or Vimanas as they were referred to in the epic histories of India. But there are two Indian epics, the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, the two epic poems that supposedly took place 5,000 years ago and over 1.2 million years ago in India, and the Ramayana actually begins with a scene in which a very sophisticated stolen airplane is being flown all over the Earth. <strong>Such ancient stories, thousands and thousands of years old, have no logical reason for talking about airplanes in any modern sense. Yet they do.</strong></p>
<p>&#8230;<strong>Daily Bell: Did ancient Indians consort with aliens and travel through time or to other dimensions?</strong></p>
<p><strong>Jeffrey Armstrong:</strong> The cosmology of India describes our universe as having fourteen parallel realities on multiple levels, all existing and intersecting within the material realm in which we are currently living.</p>
<p>One of those levels is called the Deva realm. The Deva realm is supposedly the home of the beings who actually conduct the laws of nature to which we are subject. <strong>This view of Divine helpers is much misunderstood as the so-called many gods or also as demi-gods, but in India they were never viewed as God, gods, demi-gods or in competition with God.</strong> They were, instead, viewed as souls (or more accurately atmas) like us, but living on another plane of material reality and performing specific jobs as administrators of the laws of nature. So, gods is the wrong word for many reasons, the main one being it implies &#8216;God,&#8217; which is not an Indian word in the first place. These beings are called Devas, meaning beings who &#8216;work in the light&#8217; assisting the Supreme Being by enforcing the laws of nature that allow the universe to function as it does.</p>
<p>&#8230;So as for the alien question, it was always the view in India that there are other dimensions of intelligent life in our universe who communicate with humans and that the Devas specifically are the intelligences operating behind the laws of Nature. &#8230;The Vedas describe infinitely multiple universes filled with many Earth-like and other diverse planets and many kinds of intelligent beings living in these other dimensions, some in contact with this realm.</p>
<p>The closest modern analogs are found in some of the theories of quantum physics, one being string theory, which suggests there are something like eleven parallel realities that are running simultaneously with ours. This idea in physics, of parallel realities crisscrossing, is undeniably reminiscent of the ancient teachings from India&#8230;</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">***</p>
<p><strong>Somewhat Related</strong>: <a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/06/vimanas-and-time-travel/" target="_blank">Of Vimanas and Time Travel</a> and <a href="http://varnam.org/blog/2005/10/where_is_krishnas_dwaraka/" target="_blank">Where is Krishana&#8217;s Dwaraka</a>? by Varnam</p>
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		<title>On Makara Jyothi and matters of faith…</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/02/04/makara-jyothi/</link>
		<comments>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/02/04/makara-jyothi/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Feb 2011 08:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Distortions, Misrepresentation about Hinduism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hindu Dharma]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hindu Festivals]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Ayyappa]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Haj subsidy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Infrastructure at religious places]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Makara Jyothi]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[MakaraJyothi]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[MakarJyoti]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rajesh Pillai]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sabarimala]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/?p=10686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear All, some of you &#8211; particularly those from Kerala and/or familiar with Sabarimala Devasthanam &#8211; may have read about the recent controversy surrounding the Makara Jyothi (that surfaced in the aftermath of the tragic stampede a few days back).  Below are some excerpts from an email by Rajesh Pillai in response to a particularly gratuitous article that appeared in the Kerala press a few days back (unfortunately I dont have a translation; the original in Malayalam can be read at this link). Rajesh&#8217;s response was triggered by an email ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear All, some of you &#8211; particularly <strong>those from Kerala and/or familiar with Sabarimala Devasthanam &#8211; may have read about the recent controversy surrounding the Makara Jyothi</strong> (that surfaced in the aftermath of the tragic stampede a few days back).  Below are some <strong>excerpts</strong> from an <strong>email by Rajesh Pillai</strong> <strong>in response to a particularly gratuitous article that appeared in the Kerala press</strong> a few days back (unfortunately I dont have a translation; the original in Malayalam can be read <a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/makara-jyothi-article.jpg" target="_blank">at this link</a>). Rajesh&#8217;s response was triggered by an email from one of his friends.  It highlights the absence of basic amenties at the site of pilgrimage and the utter indifference of the state government to improving the infrastructure at Sabarimala. There is no reason why this has to be so. The Maha Kumbh is a sacred affair on a much larger scale and yet has been managed relatively well over the past several years. As Rajesh says, the need of  the hour is not to ridicule faith or indulge in slander but to figure out how to avoid such tragedies in the future. Read on (emphasis mine):</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">*** Excerpts Begin (from an email by Rajesh) ***</p>
<p>&#8230;As a friend, it was hurting for me to read the mail forwarded by you about sabarimala. <strong>It is very easy to make fun of religious beliefs and more so when it comes to Hindu beliefs, as Hinduism is not a Semitic faith and an easy target too&#8230;</strong>will anyone from TN Gopakumar to Sukumar Azhikkode  dare to comment on matters related with other faiths? They wont, as the images of Prof. Joseph from thodupuzha who lost his right hand and his job are still fresh in their minds&#8230;..</p>
<p>Moreover they have specific agenda, when they write matters on such sensitive issues&#8230;.please do consider the following points..</p>
<ul>
<li><strong>First of all , though I am not a communist or a leftist, I think it is wrong to blame the Communist govt for propagating MakaraJyothi..On the other hand they are responsible for lapse in security and lack of basic amenities to pilgrims&#8230;and should be taken to task for that</strong>&#8230;this controversy is aimed at deflecting attention from core issues&#8230;</li>
<li><strong>The faith in sabarimala temple and faith in the mystic jyothi are totally different aspects</strong>&#8230;none of them, the tanthris, poojaris, pandalam family have anything to do with the makaravilakku&#8230;but now discussions and articles like this try to present the view that all are involved in a hoax as some may call it&#8230;</li>
<li>The Dewasom board could be blamed for mystifying the event , but it is equally true in the case of media too&#8230;Gopakumar&#8217;s channel has been doing Live telecast on Makaravilakku day for years now. He should first stop that before blaming others&#8230;will he set an example before preaching others? </li>
<li>Reading Gopakumar&#8217;s article, one gets a feeling that the pilgrimage to Sabarimala, the faith in Lord Ayyappa and everything connected with it, hangs on the fate of Makaravilakku. If someone daydreams that Sabarimala pilgrimage can be sabotaged like this, they will be proved wrong in the due course of time. Sabarimala has faced two major physical attacks, and campaigns like Nilakkal in the past, but nothing has affected the temple. The ongoing smear campaign will also have the same fate.</li>
</ul>
<p>I am not entering into such sensitive issues and beliefs associated with other faiths&#8230;<strong>(the) world will much more peaceful if such matters are not made subject of ridicule.</strong></p>
<p>I will end this small note with a explanation of what has happened/happening in Sabarimala on Makara Samkranthi day. <strong>In earlier days (and even today) on MakaraSankranthi day evening, the Makara Star makes its  appearance in the eastern horizon, much before the other stars appear. No divinity&#8230;. It is just astronomy</strong>. Then the Thiruvabharanam from Pandalam family arrives after a treacherous journey through the traditional forest paths. <strong>Once the star makes its appearance,  all devotees make obeisance and the Samkrama pooja starts at the Sanndihanam.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Once the doors of Sanctum Sanctorum opens and deeparadhana starts, the same deeparadhana is done at Ponnambalamedu by the Adivasis. The Adivasis present at Ponnambalemdu on that day in good numbers wait for the sanctum sanctorum to open and they can clearly see the temple doors even from such a distance.</strong> (I  have been to ponnambalamedu and you can draw a straight line from the temple doors to the place where Makaravilakku is lit.) This was happening till a few years ago. Then the number of adivasis in the forests dwindled and remaining where displaced from their settlements in the reserve forest areas.</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Makara-Jyothi.jpg"><img class="size-medium wp-image-10739  aligncenter" title="Makara Jyothi" src="http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Makara-Jyothi-300x200.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="200" /></a></p>
<p>One year ( may be some 20 years ago) no deeparadhana was done at ponnambalamedu and there was no makaravilakku darshan that year, despite devotees waiting eagerly for the same. From next year onwards, most probably the temple authorities might have made arrangements to ensure that the devotees are not deprived of the Vilakku darshan, and they did not clarify this when the Vilakku gradually achieved mystical dimensions, at least in the minds of devotees from other states. That is all. This has nothing to do with the rituals in the temple that has been in existence for more than 1000 years in the present form. And now some are trying to target the fame and faith of Sabarimala. Very Unfortunate indeed.</p>
<p><strong>As you can understand, Makaravilakku is being erroneously called as MakaraJyothi, esp. by the media, adding to the confusion. MakaraJyothi is the star while MakaraVilakku is the traditional lamp lit at Ponnambalamedu</strong>. I am 45 yrs old and have been to Sabarimala 34 times. Only once I was present to witness the makaravilakku. Believe me, <strong>you have to be there to feel the positive energy created when lakhs of devotees in one voice raises the sarana mantras. Whether the vilakku is lit by man , machine or god is immaterial and irrelevant there.</strong></p>
<p><strong>The actual point of debate should be the ill treatment of devotes in the hands of the authorities and also the vendors, laborers etc , which is a matter of real concern.</strong> There is no verification on the background of people who stay at Sannidhanam, Pampa etc during the pilgrim season. Remember that the same vendors ill treated devotees running for cover during the Pulmedu stampede and also pushed many towards death. Devotes including small children had to wait for 10 to 18 hours in queue for darshan on many days during this season. No one was their to provide them drinking water or other refreshments. And moreover police even beat many trying to come out of the queue for basic needs. Makaravilakku controversy has become handy for those who want to deflect attention from the real issues.</p>
<p><strong>Commercialization of Sabarimala pilgrimage is the core issue in this whole affair. &#8230;.</strong>(but  is it proper for Gopakumar to compare Sabarimala to a Public Sector Undertaking is an open question. Wherever devotees throng, some element of commercialization is sure to creep in. It is true in the case of pilgrim centers all over the world, belonging to all faiths. But that has to be kept under check.</p>
<p><strong>The attitude of authorities, people of the host state i.e kerala and also attitude and indiscipline on the part of pilgrims coming from other states, need to change.</strong> India is a country where 1.5 crore people participate in events like Kumbh Mela. We have triupathi and vaishno devi temple where millions come very year. Such a scientific planning and execution is the need of the hour in sabarimala too. Not slander campaigns&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">*** End of Excerpts ***</p>
<p><strong>P.S.</strong> Please note some commentators draw a false parallel between the duty of the government to provide adequate infrastructure facilities at such locations and subsidies to visit religious centres. The clue is in the word &#8220;subsidy&#8221; [ <a href="http://www.deccanherald.com/content/132741/govt-subsidy-hajother-pilgrimages-not.html" target="_blank">link</a> ]</p>
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