Now, not just worried but also angry with IAC and Anna
I began to get seriously worried about “India Against Corruption” and “Team Anna” when I spoke to Prahlad Pandey last week. Prahlad is a young enthusiastic FTI member and now a full-fledged political activist. Many of you would remember him as the hero of a lone man’s fight against the “systemâ€. But when I spoke to Prahlad last week, I became seriously worried. He was enthusiastically planning for August 16th, he told me. When I asked does he not feel uncomfortable about this, knowing that after all corruption is just a symptom and the root causes lie elsewhere, he said something about Anna’s next campaign being about state funding of elections.
I have been reflecting on this since the last few days…Now, I am not just worried about Anna and IAC, I am positively angry with them.
Angry for barking at the wrong tree. Angry for selling the idea that one Lokpal bill can solve the deep-rooted corruption that plagues India. Angry for avoiding any mention of directly seeking people’s mandate by putting up candidates for elections.  Angry, in short – for being either naïve or devious in deliberately misleading their supporters.
Let me lay out the case against IAC in black-and-white. The first charge? An over-simplification of the problem.  And what is this problem? It is “Big Government”. It is an intrusive government. It is a Mai-Baap government. It is a government that believes it is the sole repository of wisdom. It is a government that gets advice from a shadowy, non-elected “Advisory Councilâ€. It is a government that is too big for its own good. As Tavleen Singh mentioned in a recent article,
Real corruption in India relates almost entirely to government ..To destroy it, what we need are not more laws and yet another anti-corruption bureaucracy but a clear and transparent regulatory framework. This does not exist. Officials do not want it to exist because it reduces their chances of earning great wealth. …Why have Hazare and his team of crusaders been so silent on the UP health scandal? A member of the team gave us last week a 5000 page (phew!) report on the mining sector in Karnataka detailing official collusion in creating a cartel. He would have done better (and cost taxpayers less) had he told us in a few simple sentences that had there been a clear and transparent mining policy, there would have been no scandal.
She concludes with these lines which should be etched in bold:
Corruption…must be fought. But, the only way to fight it is by dismantling, bit by bit, the evil empire that has been created by decades of crony socialism. Whether it is in the matter of land acquisition, whether in mining and whether in massive, unwieldy government welfare programmes, wherever you see corruption, you will see that it comes from too many government controls not too few. Is it ideological blinkers that prevent Anna and his team from seeing this or plain stupidity?
I cannot believe that Anna and his team do not understand this. Why are they then fighting the wrong battle? For what purpose? And why are not right-thinking people standing up and exposing this “movement†that is beginning to look more and more like a charade?
Is it because of a dangerous (and insidious) “convergence of causesâ€, in the words of Offstumped, between the “well organized Left Liberal intellectual establishment and the cacophony of civil society activist voicesâ€?
Are the right-thinking quiet “for fear of being accused of being insensitive or not inclusive enough†or for fear of being branded as heartless capitalists, government stooges, cowards – and worst, corrupt?
Let me say this aloud…The Jan Lok Pal as a super-cop is a DANGEROUS AND DUMB idea.
It will do NOTHING to catch the big fish. It will paralyse decision-making by putting the fear of God in the minds of otherwise honest and hard-working officials. And it may end up overloading the already over-burdened judicial system to the extent of crippling it.
Why is this so hard to understand? Or is it that the farce has now gone on for so long that it is difficult to reel it back in?
In a news-report week, Arvind Kejriwal was quoted as saying,
(Team Anna)..have given a call for mass agitation with tearing and burning of government’s Lokpal bill — to be started by Anna Hazare himself — …In an open letter, RTI activist Arvind Kejriwal, a member of Team Anna, has said: “It is more than evident that our Government is unwilling to enact a strong law against corruption. Because if they did so, many of them would face imprisonment. There is a serious conflict of interest.â€â€œAnna’s fast from August 16 is our last hope. We can’t afford to fail this time. For if we fail, we may never get another chance. It is now or never,†said Kejriwal
Arvind got it wrong…and I sense he was being deliberately over-dramatic. There is a simple way to make the government do what you want – be the government; get in power.  That is actually the hard way – much much harder than fasts. Much less glamorous than tearing and burning bills. And it will take much longer than a few months of protests…and no amount of burning paper is likely to get any of us closer to that.
To face  up to India’s myriad challenges – and let us face it, corruption is just one part of it, we need a new set of people in the government – so that we don’t have to resort to burning bills and emotional blackmail.  Unlike Arvind, Anna, IAC members and me, the men and women in Lok Sabha are there because someone voted for them. To challenge them, we will need to take the fight to the electoral battleground. We will need to win the hearts and mind of the people – and their votes. This is much harder than playing up to the gallery (with solutions that appear like they may work but will pretty much be pointless) but it is perhaps the only way to bring about sustained change.
Let IAC and Team Anna make it their mission to groom and prepare candidates to contest the Lok Sabha elections in 2014. Let them use their vast network, reach and captive audience to help spread the message of minimum government and maximum governance; of economic freedoms, of individual liberties…Let them work towards dismantling government controls; not towards building “another government institution which will have supreme executive power to investigate and punish the corruptâ€. Let them use their formidable marketing and fund-raising skills to build a credible challenge to the system. Let them work with Freedom Team and parties such as Loksatta, Jago and others to ensure that such a challenge is credible. Let them leverage their goodwill to bring about fundamental, systemic reform rather than just one Lokpal bill. And if they do this, I will be one of the first ones to fast for this cause.
Related Posts: Thought for the Week – Do we really need a Jan Lokpal? and Worrying about Anna..and some counter-intuitive stuff…
Please also read The Jan Lokpal Bill: Good intentions and the road to hell – written by a lawyer and Jan Lok Pal – Caveat Emptor
UPDATE: There is a seductive email doing the rounds titled, “Why I support Anna Hazare and you should too?”. I received it just a few hours back and could not help notice the tempting but fundamentally wrong arguments it made… Below, some excerpts and my rebuttal…
While outlining the case for a LokPal, the email mentions:
If we were to try obtaining justice through the courts, we are faced with many practical difficulties as well as rules and regulations to protect the corrupt.
Surely the way to fix this is judicial reform and fewer regulation, rather than another super-cop? And why create another body in the first place? Why not have CVC as an “independent” organisation? Why another over-arching structure?
The email also talks about a “nine-member panel and an eleven member apex panel” Who decides who these “eminent” people are? What if they themselves form a cabal to protect certain interests? Will we then have another cop to supervise the “super-cop”?
The email also mentions how “The Jan Lokpal Bill is written and revised by eminent lawyers, judges, social activists and civil society members with vast experience in these matters.” This made me sputter…What is this supposed to mean? That we, the ignorant (and unintelligent) public must accept it as the ONLY way to deal with corruption? What makes “social activists” and “civil society” members experts in law? and experts in dealing with matters that are essentially political in nature (as corruption is) or are we to believe that corruption is a “social” evil – and we Indians are like that only?
The email also states how “Powerful leaders from all political parties, many government officials and other influential people have vested interest in ensuring that Jan Lokpal Bill is not passed…They do not want to be held accountable for their own corruption and want to continue milking the system for their own benefit. They do not want the ordinary people to be empowered to fight corruption.”
Now, I am neither a powerful political leader, nor a government official (although I used to be one) and do not consider myself as particularly influential. I am not “milking any system” and I do want ordinary people to be “empowered to fight corruption” (“empowered” is a very seductive term but be aware – if all of us are empowered to do everything, govt will stop functioning) and I have no “vested” interest in this matter – save for the fact that it affects me as a citizen of India. I still oppose this bill. Just as I oppose other similar over-bearing measures.
And for the record, I am as much against the government’s own proposal as I am against IAC. We do not need  a Jan LokPal (either a government version or the IAC version). What we need is better implementation of existing laws and a speedy judicial system – and political will. Gujarat has become almost corruption free without a LokPal and without an “eleven member apex panel“. Other states can become so too..as can India.
P.S. The most worrying bit in the email? That “Anna Hazare is not after public office”. If all Anna wants is “..fair play, the rule of law, justice and dignity for the ordinary people who are suffering because of corruption” surely he MUST stand for public office, no? and help in prosecuting the crooks and the corrupt? Why does he chose to fast instead? Answers, anyone?
I fully agree with you sir. Anna and his team, I don’t think is that intellectual that it is publicized. The same questions above was in my mind. I have opposed Anna’s strategies earlier too. But most of people are blind followers and I faced Harsh criticism on opposing that Hunger strike. He was cheated that time and he didn’t recognize all this. How can he now repeat the same? How can people trust the same?
Thanks for all this detailed analysis. All MPs and politicians are corrupt according to IAC, then how is it possible their panel will be corruption free? Integrating powers is dangerous and popularity of Anna or Arvind is dangerous for future of India. They can be used by anybody. I am sorry if I am too harsh but it is what I honestly feel.
I think it is not right to doubt Anna Hazare’s intentions.It is not necessary that every leader of a movement fight elections.Did Gandhi fight elections, did Jai Prakash Narayan? Yes some of his fellow travellers seem to be sympathisers of Maoists and leftists, but that should not deter us from the aim of reducing corruption.Lok Pal will be only the first step. It will be a long process because the well entrenched corrupt will fight every inch of the way.Just see, the PM who earlier said he was willing to be investigated by the Lok Pal, has been over-ruled by these elements, and he has fallen in line.
Pushing for a strong lokpal bill is by itself hardly a bad thing. As for paralyzing government, there are many laws which prescribe harsh punishments for ordinary people. Yet regular individuals are not “paralyzed.” Honest officials have nothing to fear.
Each person has their strengths and weaknesses. If Hazare is good for pushing for a strong lokpal bill, let him do it in peace and get however much support he wants. We can’t hold a stick to him and tell him what to do and what not to do.
If other people feel that the challenge needs a different approach, let the go ahead and start their own movement.
We all do what we can. And I never believed that a hunger strike was undemocratic. Hazare isn’t breaking any real law (laws against suicide are irrational) and so his actions are entirely democratic. Let the government choose to ignore is fast and let him die if they feel his demands are unreasonable.
Dear Shantanu,
Very good argument, but excerpt of your argument is to suggest everyone who wishes to bring about change should take part in election process and should try and get elected.
I’ve few of my arguments against that suggestion
1. Election process itself is corrupt
2. Standing in election and getting elected is nearly impossible unless you align with one or the other political party and have very very deep pocket.
3. Even after winning election there is no guarantee that parliament(arians) will allow any law which harms their self serving interests. Look at current MPs, who raise their own salary in no time, but won’t pass law to have women’s reservation in parliament.
4. In democracy everyone doesn’t have to be elected representative to bring about changes. Government is subservient to the citizen and as an informed citizen you should make an effort to bring issue to government’s notice. Protest is one such way. Dramatisation/sensationalism is part of the package.
5. Citizen can also bring about change by using their vote. Remember a vote from doctor/lawyer/teacher worth same as uneducated/uninformed drunkard on the street. Although it may take years to bring about changes in the view of educated lot as compare to just a bottle of cheap alcohol for poor drunkard.
Now saying what I said above, I’m still in favour of citizen getting more engaged in the process of running the democracy rather then be at fence and point finger.
Also I like the idea of enhancing the independence of CVC rather than create yet another body.
As for Gujarat being corruption free, I think it’s a perception compare to reality. As a small industry or individual try and get NA/NOC to convert farm land in to commercial land, try and get license from Pollution Control Board, try and get electricity connection for industrial unit, try and get district collector to authorise a export shipment, try and get department to sign a cheque for the subsidy business unit is entitled to, try and get ISO certification for your unit, you will now the reality.
Mr Modi himself is not corrupt, but the state machinery is far from being corruption free. Also headline grabbing big businesses won’t face corruption issue as much as small units and individuals do.
Would love to see one day my Garvi Gujarat and India being corruption free, hopefully soon.
Regards,
Ashish
Personally, Indians would do to understand the sinister Communal Violence Bill than waste their energies behind Anna and his team. Not that I’m against their campaign, but all things go only so far. As far as BJP is concerned it has said very categorically that it will support any form of bill if it comes to the floor of Lok Sabha. The best part is that, BJP knew this isn’t going to be an easy job for Anna and his team. Supreme Court advocate Meenakshi Lekhi has stated that the public has wrongly equated the Lokpal Bill with a one shot removal of corruption. Here’s one more article supporting the above article.
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-society/20969-few-thought-provoking-articles-against-jan-lokpal.html
Dear Shantanu Sir,
1. The exeperience from Hong Kong shows that the Jan Lokpal in India can control corruption to a great extent.http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pdf/PDF_rms/no69/16_P196-201.pdf
2. Hazare said, the new Jan Lok Pal, if instituted, would “put brakes on at least 60 to 65 per cent of corruption prevalent in the country” (“100 per cent to nahin, lekin 60 se 65 per cent corruption par brake lag jayega”).http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/India/If_They_Stop_Us_We_Will_Go_To_Jail_Hazare_-8538.html
3.Anna has asked youth to come into the politics. “I am happy to see so many youngsters present here, it gives me strength. The youth should enter politics and work for the betterment,†said Hazare.http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/anna-hazare-says-pm-controlled-by-remote/
4. As you think Jan Lokpal Bill will not solve the problem. What is the guarantee that honest, able people being into the corrupt system will not become corrupt themselves. Therefore honest, able, elected (but unelected also) people make the systems in which there will not be possiblility of corruption.
5. There are many other problems. One problem at a time.
6. 5000 page report of Mr Hegde on Corruption in Karnataka is not the substitute of 1 sentence. The same lokayukta giving a one line verdict with solution would have been more severely criticezed. I remember a report on Ayodhya verdict by Allahabad HC was of some 40000 pages.
7. National Advisory council,which has been selected by elected reprentatives, has drafted the Communal violence protection bill. It is an example of what an elected govt can do/intend to do.
8. Jan Lokpal bill has been drafted by enough consultation.http://www.lokpalbillconsultation.org/. Please tell any other bill in India which has got this much public opinion.
9. A true democracy is when people’s representatives say, act in the manner public wants them to. 90 percent of the people in various surveys conducted have supported Jan Lokpal. It is beyond the question in a democracy if jan lokpal will be supercop, ineffective. If people want it, it should be tabled in the parliament without thinking of its result. Please participate in the online referendum and those who do not agree please share. Those who think it is biased, please let me know. We have very honestly conducted the survey. https://spreadsheets.google.com/a/ileadschoolofbusiness.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dFBnOUNHbHpsRndzSF9xZlBTeTRnbmc6MQ
10. Millions of those who are following anna and supporting are not fools. They cannot be misguided. They know what is the real and permanent solution.
11. When Anna has become the voice of the people many people have started expecting too much from him. Let him finish one thing. Then ask for something else.
12. Without doing anything for the country and people if you talk about entering politics, people put in the same class in which other politicians are.
13. I think JP movement in 1970 has given some leaders to the country. So will this do.
14. The lokpal will not be overburdened. The citizen charter ( which will ensure who does what in how much time) will solve a lot of problems.
15. You said there are enough laws in the country. True, but for the common man. http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?page=section§id=112
16. Anna team drafted the bill consulting almost everyone who came forward. http://www.scribd.com/doc/53663004/Round-Table-Conference-on-Lokpal-in-Delhi
I admit that contesting elections and joining politics is the solution. But supporting Anna and Jan Lokpal looks me instant and effective solution. I am with Jan Lokpal and Team Anna.
17.Why should other people not provide which could offer the same solution. More importantly, why could other movements not connect to common man?
Answer and questions are welcome as always.
PS:
I have experience of contesting election. I wanted to write a story ” What it takes to stand up and contest election” Would write once this movement is over.
Thanks for forcefully making this point. It is astonishing that people think that another layer of bureaucracy is the answer to deal with corruption in India. As if there is not enough over reaching bureaucracy… On top of the fact that these bureaucrats have tenure !!! Now they want to add to it and expect a different result???
Some one smart defined Insanity as : “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
The Gist of Shantanus mail is the worry is “what will happen if Sonia becomes a Janlokpal”? I may be succeful in Hongkong but with poor india it is going to fail.
Dear All: Thanks for your comments…Below are my responses…
***
@Mohini: Thanks for the comment. I dont think it is too harsh..I fully agree that “Integrating powers is dangerous”
@Kishan: Nowehere did I say that every leader of a movement has to fight elections. The odd thing is that NONE of the IAC leaders (pl correct me if I am wrong) has ever fought elections or declared their intention to fight elections. Anna is on record as having said that he will loose if he stands for elections.
Gandhi did not fight elections because he could not (India was not free then) neither did Jai Prakash Narayan – but both of them publicly and emphatically asked their colleagues and followers to take part in the electoral process (and not subvert it by pressing for extra-constitutional authorities).
I think you (and many others) have misunderstood me when you question my resolve to reduce corruption. I question the methods not the objective. Which sane person can argue against reducing corruption? I question the simplification of the issue and the blind faith in one law which will magically solve the problem.
And I have a fundamental disagreement with creating more laws and institutions to resolve our problems.
@Bhagwad: “Pushing for a strong lokpal bill is by itself hardly a bad thing” – Actually it is. If you have followed my arguments, I am asking for less laws, less regulations, more transparency and better implementation. A “strong” Lokpal will be redundant if we have a strong CVC. As for “Honest officials have nothing to fear“, please speak to some “honest public officials” and you may change your mind.
@Ashish: Re. “excerpt of your argument is to suggest everyone who wishes to bring about change should take part in election process” – no, you misunderstood me completely. All I am saying is that fighting corruotion with a single bill like Jan LokPal without accompanying changes in missing the wood for the trees (and worse, attacking the symptom and not the root cause). The root cause is a system that perpetuates the presence of crooks and uncrupulous individuals in positions of power – that has to be challenged.
As for the points you have made, asky yourself why Anna finds it impossible to get elected (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rs-100-a-sari-a-bottle/774804/). Might it be because people don’t udnerstand his stance on Lokpal – or are the voters fools?
As for raising salaries and women’s reservations, I have a strong view on both the points (raising salaries of MPs is a good idea; womens reservation is a bad idea) but this is for another post (there is a post on womens reservation pl comment here: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/03/11/parliament-ka-zenana/ )
@Ganesh: Thanks for the link and the article. Supreme Court advocate Meenakshi Lekhi has stated that the public has wrongly equated the Lokpal Bill with a one shot removal of corruption.
This is exactly the point.
My objection to LokPal is more fundamental..Not only will it not remove corruption, it will add one more layer of bureaucracy and process to an already creaking judicial system.
It might catch a few offenders but thats it. NONE of the big fish will be netted by LokPal. It is simply not geared for that.
@Prahlad: Re 1] the Hong Kong bill, please read http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/jan-lok-pal-caveat-emptor/ frm whic:
Many supporters of the Draft Jan Lok Pal Bill are quick to drop Hong Kong as a reference. This is invalid because the Hong Kong Ombudsman has 1) no powers of prosecution 2) only produces a report and submits to the Chief Executive (like our PM) 3) is appointed by politicians.
Re 2] What is the basis for this statement?
Re 3] “The youth should enter politics and work for the betterment,†– this is a motherhood and apple pie statement. Just how can youth enter politics? Who will support them? Wh will fund them? If people like Anna themselves are unelectable (by his own admission), what chances do “yuoth” have?
Re 4] “What is the guarantee that honest, able people being into the corrupt system will not become corrupt themselves“? Now you are talking! There is NO guarantee – ever. Humans are fallible. You cannot EVER have a zero corruption society. To eliminate corruption, we need to a] minimise incentives for corruption b] have fewer laws, more transparency and lesser regulation c] ensure speedy justice and d] exemplary punishment which acts as a real deterrent.
That is the way to begin fighting corruption rather than agitating for a LokPal.
Re 5] “There are many other problems. One problem at a time” – Agree. Except that corruption is a symptom – not a problem. Do you disagree?
Re. 6] you have missed the thrust of Tavleen Singh’s argument. It is not about a smaller report. It is about lesser regulation and open-ness.
Re 7] “National Advisory council,which has been selected by elected reprentatives” – Really? which elected representatives have “selected” the NAC?
Re 8] “Jan Lokpal bill has been drafted by enough consultation” Arre bhai, problem is not “consultation”. The problem is that it is wrong approach, full stop.
Re 9] “90 percent of the people in various surveys conducted have supported Jan Lokpal” – If that is really true, why does Anna feel he cannot win an election? He should win by a landslide.
Re 10] “Millions of those who are following anna and supporting are not fools”. I guess so. But Anna believes the millions who vote are fools. What is your reaction to that?
Re. 11]”Let him finish one thing. Then ask for something else.” – The problem is with this “one thing”. Why is this so hard to understand?
Re. 12] “Without doing anything for the country and people if you talk about entering politics” – Prahlad, please dont make the mistake of thinking of politics as the preserve of social activists and “samaj-sevaks“. It is precisely this thinking that has landed us in this mess. Everyone who works hard at her/his job and pays their dies to the government (taxes) and follows the law is doing their bit for the country and the people. Is that not enough?
Re 13] “JP movement in 1970 has given some leaders to the country. So will this do“- That is good, except what kind of leaders? Thise who believe in a Mai-Baap state? in socialist ideologies? in big government?
Re 14] “The lokpal will not be overburdened” – We shall see (Think of RTI and the backlog http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200805181318.htm and http://www.india-forums.com/news/sci-tech/127247-video-conferencing-way-to-clear-backlog-rti-chief.htm)
Re 15] link takes us to home-page. Which article are you referring to?
Re 16] “Anna team drafted the bill consulting almost everyone who came forward” – pl see my response to point #8.
As for “supporting Anna and Jan Lokpal looks me instant and effective solution” – this IS the real issue, I believe. LokPal will neither be instant nor effective, I feel.
Re 17 “More importantly, why could other movements not connect to common man?” – how is this relevant to what we are discussing – which is the merits of LokPal as an approach to combat corruption?
**
@ RC: “It is astonishing that people think that another layer of bureaucracy is the answer to deal with corruption in India.” Exactly!
@Pushkar: “what will happen if Sonia becomes a Janlokpal� That is a nightmare!!
For everyone who merrily quotes the experience of Hong Kong, I am putting excerpts from a document shared by Prahlad: FORMULATING AN EFFECTIVE ANTI-CORRUPTION STRATEGY – THE EXPERIENCE OF HONG KONG ICAC
By Mr Tony KWOK Man-wai*:
The very first sentence reads: “The experience of Hong Kong is that you cannot rely on one single solution to fight corruption”
The concluding sentence reads: “Hong Kong’s experience proved that given a top political will, a dedicated
anti-corruption agency and a correct strategy”
Re-read the first point. Notice “political will”? Do we have this? No. Hence what is needed is an overhaul of ths system, starting with getting competent people with integrity into government.
And by the way, people have been talking about the “Hong Kong experience” much before IAC came into the picture.
Comments and further thoughts welcome. I may be delayed in responding so thank you in advance for your patience and understanding.
P.S. Pl see comment #22 on corruption on this thread (from Apr ’07!): https://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/04/13/bpd-bm-lp-light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel/
Related: From Rajeev Srinivasan’s blog:
The Lokpal Bill in its current form or this timid effort at trimming discretions will not even make a little dent in the trajectory and vibrant growth of vested interests in Government, Malgovernance and corruption.
The test of this is simple – Take the Lokpal Bill or any of these administrative discretion changes and apply it to any of the recent scams – Would this Lokpal Bill deter the 2G scamsters – would the PM have prevented the Minister and his group from giving away spectrum? Would this Lokpal Bill have prevented the Finance Minister from ignoring this loss to the exchequer? Would this Bill have prevented the CWG scam, the NTRO scam, the CVC appointment or any of the recent embarrassments – the prevention of these scams is as important – because the deterrent effect of such a legislation and institution is as important as post-facto prosecution!
The answer is a resounding NO!
There is a difference between “supercops” and Janlokpal ;
Supercop shoots and let others shoot actual bullets;
Janlokpal is only an investigating agent, he is not even a judge with arresting powers;
Yes he can become blackmailer,fixer, criminal himself despite all safeguards and break all records of corruption, but we should take the risk and definitely not reduce his area or authority . There are problems in a compromise formulae “How will be he selected” but Opposition has given inputs to the ANNA team and finaly it will be the MPs who will decide.
In this country we are not able to develop Planes and many arms only because so much secrecy and confidentiality about them.People cant get arms to defend them at 20 times the prices which a criminal gets in greymarket because of regulations. Half the parliament seats have already been surrendered to anti-nationals and rest with criminals. We should start thinking that time for change is ticking and we cant let it pass.
I have read through Shantanu’s comments and more interestingly Prahlad’s comments. I have heard Shantanu at Indore and Prahlad is my colleague and I hear him daily. I found the exchange very amusing. Shantanu as expected laid out his thoughts with great clarity while Prahlad’s views were clouded as ever.
I was surprised to see Anna’s proclamations being quoted like that of Nostradamus. *&^%@#@$….” said hazare. What is the basis of such claims?
Now the truth behind 90% of the people polled voting for Anna’s version of the bill. My friend suppressed the fact that out of 400,000(<0.5 million) forms distributed only 80,000 were returned. Statistics is a matter of representing. If Prahlads and Annas and Kejriwals are honest why dont they make the complete figures public. How many did not respond? Where are the millions of people who are apparently supporting Anna?
I agree with Shantanu that by doing their jobs and paying the tax every Indian is doing his bit in nation building.
I further believe Anna in his over zealous selective drive against corruption has gone too far and has reached a point of no return. Resorting to fake referendum, coming on TV to mobilise support Anna is nothing but a local politician trying to make his upcoming rally successful. I wouldnt be surprised if truck loads of hungry villagers are brought to Delhi for the "support of millions".
The GOI has been marketing Gandhi by putting his face on every currency note. Now supporters(some 100,000 to be accurate) are trying to market brand Anna through this Jan LokPal campaign.
Its hard to imagine a corruption free society. When someone offers to help by cutting corners in a hospital waiting line, is it not corruption? When someone shirks his duty is it not corruption?
Corruption can not be reduced by an on off switch giving instant solutions. It will take a lifetime to bring about a cleaner society. Prahlad is young and will see through it. And Anna?
I think it’s futile to wait until we have “people with integrity get into politics.” That’s too vague a goal and I doubt if any country will be able to achieve it as long as human nature remains what it is.
Corruption is not just a symptom. People have the capability to be honest but choose to be corrupt. If it was merely a symptom, every single person would be forced to be corrupt.
In any country in the world which has relatively low corruption, there is one constant – those who are tempted to indulge in corruption have the fear of god in them. It’s naive to expect that the solution is to introduce honest people into politics. That will never happen and we’ll be waiting for an eternity.
The solution is to have a straightforward and time bound process for punishing corruption. That is what the lokpal bill is about.
Also consider other autonomous bodies in the country which have not been elected and do excellent work. The judiciary itself is not an elected body. Neither is the Election commission. The lokpal will be yet another.
Arvind Kejriwal Speech at IIT Chennai on 30-Jul (Source : IACChennai.org )
http://nriac.org/?page_id=167
Arvind Kejriwal in the above speech mentions that there is no institution that is independent, which actually is not true. There is one institution CAG which is as an independent institution has made significant contribution in highlighting the corruption regarding 2G, now CWG. Why not have more independent institutions like CAG? Why not make CBI an independent institution like CAG. There are so many ways to make things transparent and devolve power rather than concentrate power in a small group of people, even if they are elected.
Reposing faith in a small group of unelected people is courting disaster. More so in a country where the governments capacity to harass an average citizen is immense.
All: Thanks for continuing the debate…Hope to respond soon…In the meantime, please read: How to remove corruption from India – the ACTUAL solution by my friend and FTI colleague Sanjeev Sabhlok
I don’t know whether you are right or wrong,but I certainly do know that after so many years people are getting together to fight for a common cause under the leadership of this man,so please be the part of it and maneuver it rather than sitting outside and criticizing from outside.I know that if we win this small battle we can prepare ourselves for a big war against this menace(corruption) so please be constructive rather than destructive,anyways you are entitled to your own view also,Jai Hind
Agree. IAC & Anna’s rhetoric speeches have misled the public just like Politicians do. Sad!
Agree with Bhagwad Jal Park fully.
We would all kill in a fit of anger etc. if there was no prospect of punishment. We will all be pushing the limit with drunken driving if the prospect of being arrested was not there. Lokpal will create a real prospect of punishment for the corrupt so it will stop people in their tracks when they realize that they will be punished. My only objection to Jan Lokpal is that it does not prescribe a minimum punishment of 5 years for corruption. All we need to do is make an example by locking up a few people for 5 to 20 years and thousands of acts of corruption will be prevented. Lokpal is not a panacea of all ills but it will be a significant step.
As far as Anna contesting elections, he is smart enough to realize that elections are not held on a level playing field. The politicians with their trunk loads of cash, their own people manning the levers of power in government, and armies of thugs ready to stuff ballot boxes and break their opponents heads if necessary, would love to take Anna Hazare in an electoral battle. Anna is much too sophisticated to walk into that trap.
If Anna succeeds to make a dent in corruption that might make it possible for people like Shantanu to have a chance in the elections. For that reason alone Shantanu should join the Jan Lokpal movement.
I do not think that politics is just a game that is played at election time once in five years with winner take all. What Anna Hazare is doing is a very healthy form of politics and he is involving the common man in it.
If Shantanu finds it intellectually too unappealing to support India Against Corruption, he should at least pray for the success and well being of thousands of people who are participating in this movement with full understanding, awareness and dedication. Your prayers will give them strength and will give you peace and help you feel less angry. We may all chose different ways we are headed to the same destination.
Regards
Dear Shantanu,
Thanks for your reply to my post, but I think you misunderstood me.
I’d said in my original post that I would like to see CVC being enhanced rather than creating yet another body.
So that reduces the gap between two of us, however in case of wining election I think you are oversimplifying it.
Win and Loss are not that easily linked with how good candidate is or whether voters are fool or smart. It’s simply the economics of election campaign, which not only includes hoardings, public addresses, but also bribing poorer people (either in the form of promised freebies or bottle of cheap liquor).
If the election wining was as simple as you are suggesting, we won’t see rapist, thugs and criminals in our Assembly or Parliament.
Anna not being electable doesn’t mean he is not someone people respect or don’t want to elect. It’s just that he’ll not be able to promise any freebies during or after election.
Regards,
Ashish
I have listened to Anna many times and other important players in IAC. I have not heard anything to suggest that they are anti- freedom, anti- free market, anti- development, anti- constitution, anti- democratic or anti- anything other than anti-corruption and anti- lawlessness. If I am wrong in that reading give me instances to back up your arguments.
Dear Sh Singh: Here is just one link: http://sauvik-antidote.blogspot.com/2011/04/prashant-bhushan-yet-another-socialist.html
Besides, how would you characterize Medha Patkar, Swami Agnivesh and other leading leftists who are now effectively running the movement?
Very good analysis Shantanu. I agree with you about minimum goverment and maximum governance.
I also think there is a need to redefine corruption. There are obvious examples of gross corruption, and there are grey areas. One could start with the black and white examples first, and that is why the CWG and other scams have been highlighted by the opposition, with varying degrees of sincerity.There has been so much malpractice in the judiciary and goverment and for so long, that those in power no longer care about what is right and wrong.Furthermore the idea of corruption is no longer linked with shame by the perpertrators.
One good consequence of the Anna Hazare ‘movement’ is that it has increased debate amongst the population,which will hopefully result in a positive outcome. I totally agree that if the aim (and result) is to add another level of bureaucracy and use it as a smokescreen to continue with the bad old ways,then the efforts would have been largely wasted. Once momentum for any cause dies down, it’s back to the bad old ways fairly quickly.
If the main aim is to fragment support for the other ‘party’, then Anna Hazare’s efforts will be counterproductive.By creating the dilemna of ‘choice’ in the voters the AIC would strengthen its own position. So how does one gage the situation through the ‘analysis’ a grossly biased media???
@Shantanu,
A quick response. This is a Well thought out article. I shared this on my FB.
However, just like how we don’t want a JLP bill either fro GOI, or from this civil society members, I am not sure FTI is the solution. I may be wrong, since I do not know much about FTI. If I am wrong, please forgive me for that. What I know about FTI is they talk of high-fi stuff which I cannot understand, but actual ground action is zero.
From a personal point of view, I appreciate the educative work being done by HJS. Even though it is deliberately maligned by the secular mafia, its actions are more direct.
regards,
RV
I think majority of people are polarized on whether to support Anna or not. Most of us agree the debate he started on the street. but how many of us want a corruption free system? How many of us will take a real step ourselves and take a vow never to indulge in any corrupt practices? Never to offer bribe to the traffic constable. Never to pay our way at Nagar Nigam? Never to get admission to our child from back door? I reiterate corruption is corruption at every stage-locally in our daily lives and not just at the government level. We all get hyper at the question of including the PM in Lokpal, how many of us would raise our hands to be included as well. No the Lokpal need not investigate everyone but would we be vigilant enough to be corruption free?
I dont believe corruption can be eliminated. Never. It can be reduced and there are many agencies in place just for that. An all powerful Lokpal will also be corrupted as power corrupts.
Many people ask me to join others with a flag at some public place to show support rather than criticizing this or that. I believe anyone can join the fight by refusing to bribe and be bribed, by doing the duty, by doing his bit where ever anyone is.
The fight against corruption is a long one and will end only if the honest people enter politics. The system will not change by hunger strikes, candle marches, empty rhetoric and a lot of BS. Sadly Anna is an opportunist who has selected the issue of corruption for publicity. Is it the most important issue or is it the most recognizable issue today?
I have marked the 16th August on my calendar. I hope Anna and his handful of supporters are unhurt. Physically,mentally and emotionally.
Shantanu,
Reading the comments on this post. It feels like that challenge is not just finding good leaders but to educate ( educated included ) voters to understand good vs bad policies. I sincerely wish that everyone in Anna’s team at least votes in next election and vote for the candidate who is not corrupt, hasn’t spent more than the allotted fund for campaign and has the right policies.
I guarantee that either they do not vote, that means either they are not part of the democratic process or they are voting for the government they are fighting against.
Anup
Dear All: Thanks for your comments…Below are my responses.
***
@Sushil: As far as I know, Jan LokPal has the authority to prosecute (I will check this once again). That makes it a supercop-like agency..
The rest of your comment actially supports my argument about fewer regulations, open-ness and transparency being one of the best safeguards against corruption (see my point #4 in response to Prahlad in comment #10)
It is certainly time for change but not change to over-bearing institutions.
@Alok: Thanks Alok..Hopefully this debate will help at least some people clarify their own thinking…
and I completely agree with you that It will take a lifetime to bring about a cleaner society
@Bhagwad: Where did I ask anyone to “wait” until “people with integrity get into politics”?
The main thrust of my argument is that this is a misguided effort. Instead of arguing for fewer laws and openness and transparency, we are creating another institution, another layer of laws and squandering another opportunity for deep, systemic reforms.
You are right that no country can achieve zero corruption (see my point #4 in response to Prahlad) and your suggestion about having straightforward and time bound process for punishing corruption is what I said in c and d in point #4.
Why cannot the existing systems and institutions do this? Why are we shying away from reforming the judiciary (see this: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2011/07/04/justice-delayed-denied/ ) and instead gravitating towards quick-fixes?
@Malvika: Good point re CAG. I agree fully that Reposing faith in a small group of unelected people is courting disaster. More so in a country where the governments capacity to harass an average citizen is immense. Well said.
@Yogesh: It does not matter whether I am right or wrong. What matters is are we fighting the right battles? I have concerns about the “common cause” and about the “leadership” (pl see my comment #22). As for sitting outside and criticizing from outside, if you have been following my blog long enough, you would know that I am not sitting outside…I’m doing my own bit to change things..Unfortunately I appear to have chosen the hard way.
@Seema: You are right..Rhetoric has trumped reason – once again, sadly.
@N.P. Singh: Pl see my response to Bhagwad above. Speedy jsutice, exemplary punishment and deterrence is what I mentioned in bold above (in my comment #10).
And if Anna is smart enough to realize that elections are not held on a level playing field, should he not be directing his remarkable following and support base to ensure that people with integrity and commitment who stood for elections (e.g. Loksatta candidates) are given every possible assistance?
Anyone who is able to make a “dent in corruption” will help people like me. No doubt about that. The question is will the “dent” that LokPal makes come at the expense of a bigger disaster?
As for my prayers, they are with everyone who is working towards the cause of nation-building in their own way. I have no enmity with Anna or his team. I just question their approach.
@Ashish: Thanks for clarifying. Agree that wining an election is far from simple…That is why I requested “Let IAC and Team Anna make it their mission to groom and prepare candidates to contest the Lok Sabha elections in 2014. in my post.
@RV: I will take your point about FTI in a separate post. As for “ground action”, I dont know where youa rebased..But are you ready to help me organise some meetings wherever you are? The numbers do not matter…Committed people do..That will be the beginning of “ground action”
Also Prahlad – an FTI member – is at the forefront of “on the ground” action in Indore.
@Alok: Good points…and I like this statement: I believe anyone can join the fight by refusing to bribe and be bribed, by doing the duty, by doing his bit where ever anyone is.
I fully agree that The system will not change by hunger strikes, candle marches, empty rhetoric and
Wow, thanks for writing this. I agree with you on this. I wrote a post on similar lines but no one seemed to agree with me. Glad that you did. 🙂
http://www.adityakumarnayak.com/2011/5-reasons-why-janlokpal-bill-is-not-the-solution/
Shanatanu,
I could not agree more with you that the real need is “the will” to implement the existing rurles and laws in the country and more importantly to address the root cause by re-educating ppl with the need to take a more hands on approach to prevent corruption
Read this and then tell me that you still support Jan LokPal (thanks to Sanjeev for alerting me to this; emphasis added):
“…The policy goals of the proposed Lokpal and the present anti-corruption framework being largely the same, why not give the existing Ombudsman institution more teeth and independence with jurisdiction over all public servants of the Union including Ministers and MPs as well as a sterner PC Act, instead of re-inventing the wheel?
None of the proponents of the Lokpal idea have done their homework on what the real consequences of the new law would be to the exchequer and particularly on the court system. While the Constitution mandates presentation of a Financial Memorandum along with the Bill to indicate the expenditure involved in implementing a new law so that budgetary allocations could be made, this exercise has largely remained a casual effort limited to the expenditure on salaries of personnel if any authority or agency is created under the proposed legislation. The Financial Memorandum attached to the Lokpal Bill 2011 speaks of Rs. 50 crores as non-recurring and Rs. 100 crores as recurring expenditure and put likely infrastructure costs to Rs. 400 crores. These figures come without any judicial impact assessment to ascertain the likely impact on the judiciary due to the enactment of this new law. For one thing is sure, every decision of the Lokpal will end in the court. The judiciary and also the public should know if there’s money in the coffers for the additional workload in the courts or speedy justice to nail the corrupt will remain a mirage. And who is going to foot the bill for legal aid to the person complained against, that laughable largesse in clause 56 of the Bill?
What were the likes of Tavleen Singh doing to dismantle the roots of corruption all these days? However deep-rooted corruption is, it is sustained by the rains that come from above. Catch the top echelons of corruption and all India will get the message. When there is zero tolerance of corruption at the top, the founts of corruption will dry up. Yatha Raja, Thatha Praja. The citizens follow in the footsteps of the rulers.
Anna and his team have done a brilliant job in putting forward the issue of corruption in front of the public. As an activist and social worker I have myself never heard so many people talk and argue corruption in such detail. I think Shantanu its only because of Anna and his team you are been able to write and have such a good discussion on corruption on Satyamavea Jayate. We should not undermine and put down any one who fights against corruption. There are different ways to fight. Some create a lobby, some enter politics. I m sure Mother Teresa would have never joined West Bengal Politics though she kept on saying to the government that the way poors are treated in Kolkata is beyond acceptable standards (Book: City of Joy).
Annas way of doing things are right and so is yours Shantanu. We all should support 16th August Agitation.
The bill might or might not come through. but a movement has.
Jai Hind
Deepak
Shantanu,
Your post was a very interesting read and I agree with most of what you say. What we require is a more informed debate on tv or in newspapers, rather than one sided ranting (generally in favor of team Anna). The intricacies of the possible Lokpal bill haven’t been made very clear, so while a person in a Lokpal’s position will probably turn in to a super cop, whether that in itself makes the idea unfeasible is not particularly clear. After all there have to be checks and balances for the Lokpal too. Again, it is obvious that the Lokpal will never be a magical cure to all of India’s problems, but if there is some qualitative improvement in the government machinery then why not? After all there are omsbudsmen in many countries and they don’t reek of corruption.
Don’t get me wrong, I do not support having a Lokpal, but with the media basically ga ga about the whole thing, one can understand why there is so much public support for the bill. What we need is informed discussion that can show the dangers of passing a bill that can doncentrate power in just one individual and how something like this can go drastically wrong.
Naturally, I agree with you that the root of corruption is socialist cronyism, but unfortunately I don’t see it dying sometime soon. After all, I saw a rather amusing picture of senior Congress chamchas praying for SG’s health!
Btw, Gandhi could stand for elections even though India was not independent, the Nehrus certainly did – merely not for PM
Deepak Sharma:
Wasn’t it Baba Ramdev who started the agitation against corruption and black money, much before Shri Anna appeared on the scene? I’m not trying to malign Anna’s efforts, but due credit should be given where it is due. Yes, it were Anna’s efforts which took the media by storm, but the groundwork was already laid.
And I’m not sure that all efforts are equally good, which is what you seem to imply. Shouldn’t we do some analysis and critical thinking on whether our efforts will result in some meaningful and desired change, and fine-tune them if the analysis shows that those efforts will likely be in vain?
We all must join the fight against corruption but we need not go on street and shout slogans or burn the copies of any bill. It is painful to see someone like Anna Hazare resorting to crowd pulling tactics. Now that 16th August is close he is desperately seeking the support of more and more people. It means not many people are joining in visible numbers. The herd is missing. I am afraid Anna’s supporters would resort to bring truckloads of farm workers from UP and Haryana(the rally crowd) in a show of strength.
India’s power lies in its large youth population. If the youth decide to be upright and honest the corruption will go. Even with a bill turning into law may take many years and many more to change the society. The extra burden on judicial system has potential of corrupting it again.
@Reshmaji Gandhi could have fought elections of INC but he liked playing the Kingmaker. This is not the theme of debate but please read about the INC presidential elections of 1938 and 39. Also he blessed Nehru with the prime ministerial berth. The ruling clan has returned the favour by launching the largest and most extensive marketing campaign for him- by affixing his face on every currency note.
I agree with Deepak. There’s no one single way to fight corruption. Each person can choose the way which they’re best suited for. By fighting amongst each other and saying “This is the only way,” we’re merely playing into the hands of those who would benefit from the infighting.
Let Anna do what he’s doing. Let others fight elections if they want.
@Alok,
In my previous comment I merely wished to point out that Indians could stand for public office even in pre-independent India.
🙂
Being kingmaker is so much more fun than being Prime Minister. Of course Gandhi at least at the begining was more than Kingmaker, he was the puppetmaster. We all know where (like today) true power lies. Gandhi had it right! Yes, Indian history of the ’30s and ’40s was deliciously fun!
But I digress,
I do not think of Anna as an evil opportunist, merely as a misguided soul (much like the public that suports him who are frustrated of rampant corruption but remain uninformrd of the consequences of passing such a draconian law) exploited by evil opportunists.
to Yogesh and Deepak: as Kafeer said this movement was started by Baba Ramdev and the national stage was provided to Anna by Baba Ramdev only. otherwise, his existence was limited to Maharashtra only. this is fact. and people like Agnivesh, Medha Patkar, Mr. Hegde (who smartly forgets to include the name of S M Krishna in mining scams) with Anna’s company is more than enough to doubt the credibility of Anna and his movement. Another thing is Anna is imposing some conditions for Baba Ramdev if he wants to join his agitation. Pathetic! and as Alok says, “We all must join the fight against corruption but we need not go on street and shout slogans or burn the copies of any bill. It is painful to see someone like Anna Hazare resorting to crowd pulling tactics. Now that 16th August is close he is desperately seeking the support of more and more people. It means not many people are joining in visible numbers. The herd is missing. I am afraid Anna’s supporters would resort to bring truckloads of farm workers from UP and Haryana(the rally crowd) in a show of strength”. perfectly described.
We are proud of this land who have so many well wishers. But we should remember that if the people in power dont understand the language of love, belongingness and knowledge, we have to make them understand with the language they understand, which is power.
Go back in history and you will find Chanakya (Vishnugupt)who got together the whole of India thorugh the means which a lot of people in those days thought is unethical, as he was a teacher (achariya) @ Takshashila. A lot of violence happened, lies were spoken, politics was played but for the welfare of MAA BHARATI (India). I dont compare chanakya with anna hazare and I fully agree that Baba Ramdev should also get his credit. He is brave and did something outstanding. I was there in the hospital with Sri Sri Ravishankar Ji when he broke his fast. I belive in tackling the root cause of corruption by creating belongingness and love by creating a sense of One World Family. But thats not what you might think is right.
We all have our own ways and we shouldnt undermine anyone who is taking any step towards a better and brighter Bharat.
Hai Hind
(and you have a right to dis agree to this 🙂
In my latest article I have raised some points. I can’t Support Anna Hajare
Dear All: Thanks for continuing the debate..Hope to respond soon..In the meantime, please have a look at this snippet:
Chief Election Commissioner SY Quraishi believes..proposed constitutional amendments on debarring criminals from contesting elections & transparency in political funding will be greater fundamental reforms than the new lokpal Act for..Indian democracy.
“These will be the most crucial reforms to decriminalise elections and check the flow of black money in the electoral process,” Quraishi said.. [ link ]
From Why is Anna wrong by Nitin:
2. What’s the alternative to Lok Pal then?
The alternative is to proceed with second-generation reforms, or Reforms 2.0. Contrary to conventional wisdom reforms have reduced corruption, albeit by moving it to higher up the government. In 1989 an ordinary person would have to pay a bribe to get a telephone connection. By 2005, there was no need to pay a bribe at all and anyone could get a phone in minutes. Yes, 2010 saw the 2G scam in telecoms, but that was because the UPA government reversed the reform process.
3. Doesn’t Hong Kong have an Ombudsman and doesn’t it enjoy low corruption?
This is a specious argument. There is little evidence to prove that Hong Kong has low corruption because it has an Ombudsman. On the contrary, there is empirical evidence from across the world suggesting that countries with high economic freedom are perceived to suffer from less corruption.
Hong Kong is one of the freest economies of the world, and therefore, incentives for government officials to be corrupt are relatively low. The Ombudsman is useful to address the residual corruption in economic sectors and in sectors like law enforcement that do not have discretionary powers over economic sectors.
4. How can we have economic reforms if the corrupt politicians don’t allow it?
We have not really demanded them at all, actually. If we did, they are bound to register in the national political agenda. We should persuade politicians that their political future is linked to implementing economic reforms.
5. Easy to say, but how can we do this?
By voting. The constituencies that stand to benefit from economic reforms—the middle class—needs to vote in larger numbers. In the absence of the middle class vote base, politicians appease the poor by giving handouts and entitlements, and cater to the super rich by allowing the crony sector to exploit the half-reformed economy. It’s not easy, and we have to be innovative.
Dear Friends,
Everyone knows corruption is so prevalent in this country and it has become part of blood now. Those who are honest are suffering like anything; those who are poor have been hit the most. People sitting in news rooms/AC rooms, writters, bloggers will come, give lectures and go away. Do we have some leader like Swami Vivekanandaji who can inspire youth to reform society? Unless 80% of public says – we will not accept or pay bribes – corruption can not be rooted out from society. When people at streets drink free liqor provided by political netas before election day; what is that called; that is corruption- that is not by politician but by people of this country. People deserve this; so they get this. The day they reject free liqor for voting; India will be free from corruption. Until that time, they deserve corrupt netas. Someone might argue that they have their own prolems but to solve problems one needs not to resort to corrupt practices.
Jai Hind
To Pushkar, for Sonia to become Jan Lokpal two layers of respected people will have to agree that she should become a Lokpal and then she can only become one of eleven equal members. Once she becomes Lokpal she cannot have any conflict of interest, she can never contest elections, she will have to come clean on her assets and she can be hauled up before supreme court by ordinary coitizens if she does anything wrong. Her conduct will have to be transparent.
That situation is a lot better than millions of ignorant people handing her absolute power over the nation without any accountability or transparency whatsoever.
Lokpal is not another layer of Beauracracy, it will be outside of it.
Lokpal is not inconsistent with free market capitalism. In fact it is an absolute neccesity if we have to be free in real terms. Freedom is not possible without rule of law which a properly structured independent, empowered and transparent Lokpal will establish.
Our dim-witted Prime Minister Manmohan Singh today i.e.., on 15th August 2011 affirmed his assurance to root out corruption although said there is no magic wand to do so and decried hunger strikes as a means to achieve the intention, in an apparent reference to Anna Hazare who is planned to begin fast tomorrow and Singh acknowledged that corruption is a big obstacle in national transformation but said it should be discussed in a manner that should not create an atmosphere in which country’s progress comes into question. Corruption had been made popular in India mainly due to Congress government early from Independence that he knows very well.
Devoting a major portion of his dialogue to corruption over which his administration is under all-round attack, he said the problem manifests itself in many forms and admitted that many times funds meant for people lands up in the “pockets of government officials†and a few months ago in the news paper he stated that his Congress government is wholly responsible for corruption. Haha it indicates that he is unfit for the post of PM now it’s high time that he ought to resign.
We all people of India got to maintained and want a strong Lokpal to thwart corruption in high places and a bill in this regard has to introduce in Parliament under the circumstances of Indian Citizens not by the crook Congress government. I insist you all more than ever youngster that there is “no single big step†for Congress administration to eradicate corruption which needs to be fought simultaneously on many fronts and I urge all of you to “stand shoulder to shoulder†in this fight by way of Anna Hazare against corruption towards Congress government. Apparently referring to 2G, Commonwealth Games and Adarsh scams, “many instances of corruption†have come to light in the last few months with “functionaries†of central and various state governments facing allegations but till now we have got the outcome.
Without naming Hazare and his agitation launching here tomorrow i.e., on 16th August 2011, Singh said he was aware that some people had different opinion on some aspects of the Lokpal bill. “Those who don’t agree with this bill can put forward their views to Parliament, political parties and even the press. He (Manmohan Singh) asserted that only Parliament can decide what type of Lokpal legislation can be enacted and I think Mr. Singh might forgot it is all due to his failure government and is hopeless at present and people of India have got to decide the type of Lokpal bill. Insisting that no government especially Congress has a “magic wand†to deal with corruption. We People of India must take the strictest possible action in cases of corruption that we have surfaced.
Congress government refused to give an undertaking that only 50 cars and the same number of motorcycles will be parked near the venue, no shamiana will be erected on the roads and loudspeakers will not be used after nine pm. “These conditions are unconstitutional and unacceptable. You cannot limit our fast. You cannot limit our fundamental rights. You can do that only if our protest turns violent. If it is not so, then Government cannot interfere,â€. By putting such conditions, the authorities were gripping them to say no to such things. We all also found fault with the condition about regulating the number of vehicles at the protest venue saying they were not traffic police. “It is not our job. We are not traffic police. They should make alternative arrangements to handle traffic,†Keeping this into mind noted that they were not flouting any law and would court arrest tomorrow wherever police stops them and the denial of permission showed the “dictatorial and arbitrary attitude†of the government.. “All these conditions are unreasonable and unjustified,†“We are not allowed to erect shamianas. It is raining these days in India. How these tents will pose a security threat? Where will people take shelter from the rain? On the restrictions on vehicles being parked, he said, “Why allow only 50 vehicles to be parked. Why not 1000? Why not 10000? How have they arrived at this figure of 50? It is completely arbitrary.†He alleged that the authorities were creating an Emergency-like situation. If this would be some party function of Congress then sky would be the limit for them shameless congress government.
do you think the government is doing the rightful thing by arresting people who want to demonstrate peacefully.
even if i had my doubts earlier now i support anna hazare.
http://endangeredindia.blogspot.com/2011/08/i-am-anna-hazare.html
Tweet by WSJ columnist Sadanand Dhume: Only in India can you lead a movement to add an extra layer of unwieldy regulation to fix a problem caused by too much unwieldy regulation.
I Dont know whether the jan lok pal or govt lok pal is goona be effective… or how is it going to affect me… but i support Anna Hazare…because he a good example of how A Marathi manoos can also stir and lead a National level movement… (Delhi chay hi Takhta Rakhitoh Maharashtra Majha)
All: Thanks for the comments…Hope to respond later this evening..In the meantime, an excerpt from It is the Anna-rchy stupid! by Pragmatic:
Imagine this scenario. Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the patriarchal Kashmiri separatist leader who offered prayers for the slain al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, decides to protest against Indian “occupation†of Kashmir by hoisting the Pakistani flag at the Red Fort on 15th of August at 7.30 AM. OK, let us leave the Pakistani flag bit out of this for a moment. It is too provocative.
Say, Mr Geelani wants to offer Namaaz and read verses from the Quran to 5000 people from the ramparts of the Red Fort as a means of protest against the Indian government. He says that Indian government must accept his position on Kashmir completely as he is the sole repository of knowledge and wisdom about Kashmir. Because he claims to speak for the people of Kashmir, the democractically elected government of India must either accept his demands or allow him to go ahead with his plans for protests at the Red Fort.
Meanwhile, some of Mr Geelani’s supporters gather in front of the United Nations headquarters in New York and stage a protest against the Indian government. The US State department spokesperson asks government of India “to exercise appropriate democratic restraint in the way it deals with peaceful protestâ€.
As we all know, the right to protest peacefully is enshrined in the democratic ideals of the Indian Constitution. While you may not agree with the demands or cause of Mr Geelani, you would of course never deny him the right to protest in the Indian Republic. Right. Yes. Agree.
Most of the readers of this blog will be aghast at this proposition. Of course not. How can Mr Geelani lay claim to any public space in Delhi for his protest? Are there no rules and laws in this country that must be followed by the likes of Mr Geelani, and enforced by the government of India?
By now you have got the drift. This is not a rhetorical argument but has direct parallels with what Mr Anna Hazare and his team of supporters are trying to say about their plans to publicly protest against corruption on 16th of August, a day after the Independence Day celebrations in Delhi.
Dear Shantanu,
The Mighty Corruption, causes spiraling effect in the country and it is because the people sitting in powerful positions, start en-cashing their power, in an organised manner. In the present system there is no remedy available to recover ill gotten wealth from such people, except and unless, it is investgated independently and set free from the interference/control of those corrupt people, indulging in this corruption at the political level. Therefore, a strong Jan Lokpal Bill is a must.
With the best of regards,
Yogi
Dear All: My response to comments #32 onwards:
@vamanan: Re. “Catch the top echelons of corruption and all India will get the message” But why do you need a new law for this? Don’t we already have laws and the courts? The problem is we don’t have speedy justice or exemplary punishment. And the fonts of corruption feed from the vast amounts that go in election spending – Unless that is stemmed – and audited, not much change can happen.
@Deepak: Team Anna has “marketed” corruption brilliantly. Agreed. But their solution is unworkable and may actually make the problem intractable. And where is the “detail” you are talking about? The “detail” is only in the clauses of Jan LokPal. Have you seen any public debate about the “causes” oc corruption? or any “detail” about that?
Pl don;t get me wrong. I am not trying to undermine anyone (and who am I compared to Anna and others) but what is not going to work should be called out, no? A “movement” has come through, no doubt but I am afraid it is a misguided movement.
@Reshma: Ombudsmen are useful. no doubt..but our problems are systemic and LokPal is a Band-aid – purely cosmetic. Looks (and feels) good but totally ineffective in controlling the disease we are fighting.
@Bhagwad: There may be no single way to fight corruption but is having another law the way? Anna and his team are of course free to do what they want. But is asking people to think about what they are proposing wrong?
@Ranjeev: Pl understand one fundamental thing. People pay bribes not becuase they love to – but because thats the only way to get most things done (and fast). Why? Because of excessive controls and regulations and ridiculous number of laws. That is what must be attacked. Not the bribe giver.
@NP Singh: One of the points I (and others) have made above is that we already have such “independent” institutions. Why not make the, stronger? Why not make the courts deal with cases quicker? Why not root out the very laws and restrictions that give rise to corruption? Those are the questions I am asking.
@rohit and Mahesh@ PL see my latest blog post.
@Col Dayal: Sir, with due respect, strong LokPal bill might catch a few big fish but it will be unable to prevent the spawning of many others. That is because it is attempting to treat the symptoms not the root cause of the disease..
@author…….my dear author….i respect your comments..
You talk about solving by so called better “implementation†and transparency…but unfortunaltely even after 62 years of rule in which 55 years of congress rule…do u expect this govt can do better implementation…
After being bullied and fooled so much of times…corruption is ramphant and order of the day…our system has proved fruitless for corruption…due to these very policies only 5p out of rs1 reach common man..and u expect this govt to work in its own way reduce corruption…
You talk of “transparencyâ€â€¦.my dear author….mind it…reserch..and before commenting on these respectable people see their statements..â€ARVIND SIR HAS OPENLY INVITED GOVT TO HAVE TALKS..OPENLY INVITED GOVT TO HAVE DEBATE OVER ISSUES….HE WANTS TO LIVE TELECAST WHOLE PROCEEDINGS…WHICH GOVT HAS DENIEDâ€â€¦..i know ur common reply is i said transparency in terms of govt transactions…but think my dear friend this govt is not allowing even slightest of transparency..they even asked anna and team not to tell people of inside happenings of committe meetings….do u still expect transparency from this govt by just petition?? if u still agree and i feel even govt orders open firing of common man…then justification can be given for that also…PLZ AGAIN RESERCH BEFORE COMMENTING…what methods u r telling they have already been applied and proved useless…U must have heard many honest officer murder..recently 2 cmo were dead..if these people does nt gather public support..govt will easily crush them..then no movements…no voice and more corruption
IT IS VERY EASY TO DEFAME ANYONE WHO DARES TO MOVE AGAINST GOVT AND TELL THAT THEY ARE DOIN WRONG THING..BUT IT REQUIRES CHARACTER TO SUPPORT THE RIGHT THINGS…SAYING RIGHT THING WRONG IS THE MOST EASY WAY TO SAVE URSELF FROM INACTION…..UPTILL NOW NOTHING IS BEEN DONE AGAINST THIS MENANCE…AND SOMEBOBY HAS RAISED VOICE WHOLE INDIA SUPPORT IT…
if u dont support….u have ur own method…try it apply it…go..apply ur way and guarantee me in how much time u will eliminate corruption….u have easily suggested others to go in election…i challenge you u go on your way..and prove your method is right by implemnting…We all support Anna hazare to implement the idea…i am not going personal…but i just ask to do same what u asked Anna ji and team to do……
I fully agree than Jan Lokpal will not be able to control corruption at all. Actually it will be an added dump in ‘enforcing’ and ‘execution machinery’ of this country like courts, CID, CBI, Police etc. But let us try to understand a problem.
A child is born in the hospital. Nurse and other employees of hospital demands ‘inaam’ on this occasion. In which environment a child gets birth. The very first bit of oxygen of hospital…full of corruption on child’s first cry. Now at the end of life, we are taken to ‘Moksha Dhaam’ or “Shamshaan”, where woods to burn the body are sold for 500-600 rupees a quintal, just 1.25 to 2 times of normal rates prevailing in the market. Here to get the death registered, you have to fill a form for local municipality. The concerned employee demands ‘Chai-Paani’ ignoring the misery of the family members of the dead person…………..Where do I leave the world, again full of corruption.
Corruption Cycle in this country is very strong. Induction of Lokpal or any other type of bill is just an endeavor to break this ring. This strong ring may also break this Lokpal. What is the fate of similar type of commissioners working in the states……Their posts are like just ‘Post retirement shelter’ for retired high officials of the Government. Those are working without teeth and nails.
Why I support Anna ? Not because his Janlokpal will be able to solve all my problems…..Not at all….If i believe it, I accept I will be living in fools’ paradise. But what are the provisions in Govt.Lokpal Bills ??????…..It doesn’t eliminate the corruption but will eliminate the complaints of corruption, meaning thereby providing a strong shell to corrupt people. The provision in Govt.Lokpal Bill, enable the Lokpal to order sentence to the complainant if complaint is proved false, but only recommendations for action against the official, if complaint is found true.
So what is the motive of the Govt. behind this clause……………Just think
Nice and comprehensive article. I agree that this one effort will not bring about the change. But as I look at the nation today, a few things emerge which keep me hopeful.
1. The people on the streets have a new found faith in their nationality. And it is heartening to see the people coming together without anyone tempting them with a days meal or gratification in terms of money.
2. The people have forgotten their religion, region, language, castes, and have found a fraternity.
3. The political class is dumbfounded and possibly will be an awakening call.
4. The instrument may be having its fallacies, but it certainly talks about a malaise which has created this distinction of “Us in the House” and “They on the roads”.
We are looking at creating a greater transparent system with a lot of accountability and better governance methods on the basis of merit. This obviously will mean good candidates whose winnability is not based on the demographic composition of a constituency. This I think is the most difficult proposition, even more difficult than getting state funded elections. So the first step, we need to do is to teach people the value of work, and its bearing on their decisions. This obviously cannot be achieved in one stroke. A lot of grass root work has to be done, and I sincerely believe that to make this a sustained change, we will have to start at various levels. Those in cities will need to hold meetings with students to educate them on their role in nation building, and in villages, we will have to identify the ones with progressive minds.
Going further, I agree that government should be governing and not building roads, bridges, digging wells, making tractors. These activities can be left with private sector, but considering that we are still to bridge the gap between the haves and have nots, it is also important that we understand and devise methods of providing equitable opportunities so that we are an inclusive society.
If I go back to from where I started with, I am hoping that people now on streets will continue believing in their strength.
Excerpts from Lessons Arvind Kejriwal did not learn from Delhi Metro:
The Caravan Magazine has a very interesting long form profile of Arvind Kejriwal, the man described as the chief architect of the India Against Corruption (IAC) campaign and the Janlokpal Bill. What caught this blogger’s attention was this reference to the Delhi Metro as an example of systemic change to make the case for a Lokpal Kejriwal—who owns a car but takes the Delhi Metro almost every day—likes to illustrate with a transit parable he’s often used at press conferences.
So what about the Delhi Metro makes it the “right system†?
…So once again what exactly about the Delhi Metro makes it such a shining example of systemic efficiency that it impressed Arvind Kejriwal ?
#1 – Delhi Metro is a product of “neo-liberal economic policies†that Mr. Kejriwal and his fellow Left Liberals like Prashant Bhushan so deeply detest. It is a for profit Corporation. It receives no government subsidies.
#2 – Delhi Metro keeps itself solvent by effectively monetizing non-transportation revenue opportunities apart from ticket sales by leveraging its real estate creatively.
#3 – Delhi Metro is managed by a professional technocrat empowered with the autonomy any for-profit corporation should have
#4 – Delhi Metro has a clearly defined hierarchy of accountability that is not independent of the Government of India given that the Government of India is a 50% stakeholder.
#5 – Delhi Metro’s primary commitment as a “for profit†corporation is maximizing value to its shareholders while fulfilling the aspirations of its primary stakeholder – the Delhi Commuter
Arvind Kejriwal did get it right that the Delhi Metro is a great example of systemic reform in delivery of public services. But it appears Mr. Kejriwal failed to draw the right lessons on what aspects of the system were reformed to create Delhi Metro.
His proposed Janlokpal Bill fails to draw any of these lessons on both reforming the structure of Government and on ensuring accountability, in its attempt to reduce avenues for corruption.
The debate started here has taken such a good shape. I missed out some of it but it was a gripping and interactive article. Now the anshan is in its sixth day and the movement is gaining popularity by each passing day. I am however not convinced by gandhi topi donning young boys and girls and even fourth graders with tricolour.My friend who is the local coordinator for IAC labelled me anti national for not supporting the Jan Lok Pal bill.
Unfortunately people dont understand that a strong bill can be adopted but it need not not necessarily be Anna’s bill. I find it sad and strange that the old man is promoted by some legal luminaries, top cops and social activists to sit on a whimsical fast. My bill or nothing.
I still could not understand how Anna Hazare arrived at the magic number of 65% reduction in corruption. And he claimed he was so sure he could give it in writing. Now anyone else can give anything in writing. To my knowledge no such data exists to prove his number is right.
And why 65% reduction only? Will he next bring a supplementary to JanLokPal bill to further reduce it by another 65%? Now this is an interesting mathematical problem. It will take at least four avtars of JLP to bring the corruption to 1.5%. I am sure Anna will maintain his good health(his sprint after two days of fast made me realize he is mentally strong but physically stronger) to complete his fasts in future.
He has in fact done some good to the government by shifting the focus to JLP. There was a talk of reducing the price of petrol and diesel following a meltdown in oil prices.
@Reshma :
I could agree with you more on kingmakers and the shortsightedness of Anna. I wish him success.
I read it in one of the articles pointed in the debate and found the one on Geelani and his constitutional rights to hurl his secessionist sentiments from Red Fort, extremely interesting.
Why is everyone asking to support Anna? Is it a massive marketing exercise for the old man to make his future campaigns bigger crowd pulling success? He will need three sequels to his second freedom fight to make the country nearly corruption free.
I tried following the news but the repetitive nature of the breaking news can be very repulsive. I think the news value of Anna’s Anshan will wear off in another week. I think I picked the desperation in the voices of Kiran Bedi, Prashant Bhushan and Arvind Kejriwal after six days of fasting and not receiving an invitation from the government.
The government is, in my opinion, not doing right by asking for comments of people. Anyone who has any experience with collecting responses to open ended questions will agree that the collation of such data is very difficult.
Prashant Bhushan and other activists have been saying JLP is supported by 95% of the people. They do not give out the sample size. Nor they claim to have any figures from any respectable agency. Believe me I can construct a sample survey where 95% respondents would vote for immediate arrest of all the activists sitting on the podium at Ram Lila Maidan. I wish the gentlemen would stop misleading the people with twisted statistics.
I also wish to register my protest. Please Anna do not draw the teenagers and the youth on the streets. Ask them instead to read and learn o reason. They can actually change the system if they want-but not by wearing gandhi caps(more of a fashion), slogan shouting and marching with candles.
@Alok: “Please Anna do not draw the teenagers and the youth on the streets. Ask them instead to read and learn to reason. They can actually change the system if they want – but not by wearing gandhi caps(more of a fashion), slogan shouting and marching with candles“. Well said…
The article is really good and has logic and reason in it. I feel that we do not need a Lokpal. We need to decentralize the system in order to make decision making fast and efficient. This is nothing but centralizing the power once again. A waste of taxpayers money on yet another body which can anyways be bypassed by the corrupt.
Another gem from Team Anna
Remove Army & Give Aazadi to Kashmir-Prashant Bhushan
Just stumbled on this comment by Sharad Bailur via Sanjeev’s blog:
The Lokpal/Janlokpal, as a solution is, at best, bound to fail, and, at worst, can cause a complete general paralysis of governance as a cost of the new rectitude imposed from above.
Here is why: Put yourself in the shoes of a government servant. You have been (reluctantly or inefficiently) doing the work assigned to you lubricated by bribes up to now. Tomorrow a Lokpal (pristine and uncorrupt and a firm devotee of Anna) ensures that your bribe gravy train comes to a dead halt overnight. Will you still do the work? Or will you stop doing the work? On the one hand the ‘carrot’, the bribe is no longer available; on the other a big stick is now held over every move you make.There is no clear way to punish a government servant for not doing his work. You cannot get rid of him. His job is secure under a government mandated law.
This makes any efficiency on the part of the Lokpal in doing his job a perfect recipe for instant and total paralysis of governance. As it is ‘pre-audit’ by the CAG for any and all expenditure at governmental level is one such road-block. A ‘pre-audit’ sought from the Lokpal on each and every action before it is put into effect by every single department all over the country can paralyse the Lokpal within days and bring all governance to a halt in less than a week.
Got the following comments in response to my tweet, “Is any1 aware of official stance of IAC/TeamAnna on reservation in Lokpal? Pl RT. Thx #lokpal #janlokpal “:
1. AH has said he will let govt decide. Cong has been trying to play that response as being negative or no clear stand.
2. Parshant Bhushan said not against it, if it is as per existing govt policies…
3. kejriwal made a statement on TV some days back that they have no problem wid reservation if givt approves their version
***
Does anyone have references/links to any “official statement” from IAC?
Dear Shantanu,
Don’t behave like a child. Your thoughts are just against Anna not corruption. You have not shown any practical idea which can stop the corruption. No doubt that you are good in writing, you can write a good love-story novel. It’s a serious matter, please come with +ve Ideas and show that in your behavior else be quite.
Dhirendra: It is clear that you have not bothered to read what I have written – nor the numerous other posts under the category of “Corruption” on this blog..
Thank you for the compliment about my writing..but surely you cannot be serious asking me to “be quite”(sic) on my own blog!
Dear all,
That corruption prevention attracted so many comments is itself a gratifying sign. I beg to differ from the blogger, and also Shantanu.
There is not just one VERY EASY thing to do to fix corruption in Indian Government, as you say – just reduce the government. How? There is no method that you have mentioned which can be compared to IAC’s method. I believe you suffer from over-simplification. My theory of corrupt forms :
1. Collusion between governments and businesses is designed into capitalism, because Enterprise seeks markets (not free markets, mind you) and governments regulate markets. So corruption is a high possibility, as we have seen in US, EU, Asia – everywhere. US legislators have gone to great lengths to promote business interests over people interests (remember fiscal cliff, BHP in Iraq reconstruction or the now 5o years of failed attempts to redo US healthcare, which sits at the bottom of OECD?). Just by calling it ‘lobbying’ the nature of the act does not change. Yes, laws keep getting made and upgraded forever to try and keep a level playing field between players. Of course this reframing can be dismissed as black man’s ignorance of the white man’s enlightenment – happens all the time.
2. What’s troubling about India in India is a second corruption – politicians buying votes. This increases the need for corruption in the point 1, and attracts the efficient gatherers of votes – criminals into politics (INR/vote can be brought down by replacing the money with threats. This strategy is made possible by a glaring gap in our electoral process – you can be residing in UP, but can contest and win from Assam, and same for the voter – resident of Maharashtra but vote for your caste in UP). So those we see in the parliament are not people’s candidates, but effective buyers of votes anywhere they can find a market. Similarly, people’s stakes in voting responsibly are low so money for votes does well.
Sr 1 is a design defect, and it will stay a cat and mouse game -you win some and you lose some. Sr 2 is an easy plug through an amendment, but made practically impossible due to irretrievable subversion of government systems in executive and judiciary, and the power of criminals over them through parliament. Hence, 1 of the 3 equally strong pillars of socialist India has out-manoeuvred the other 2, and does not allow changes to british laws because they favour the incumbent.
Can this be corrected by waiting till we have good people of FTI in power? Unlikely to happen – lemons drive out quality in unregulated markets, and the market for votes is not regulated. So it’s a weak premise to strategize on.
So the attempts through attempts to bring in more transparency (RTI), attempts to create another power structure through Jan Lok Pal, attempts to appeal to courts.
What has not happened yet is pressure of international community on India to reform it’s social justice systems, and I wonder why? A corrupt India poses a far greater threat to the free world than a Nigeria.
WHile old, the subject is evergreen, and I will be happy to be educated if my premises or conclusion are somehow wrong. As a wise man said – the matters of governance are too important to be left to governments.
On lobbying and its extraordinary influence on US politics:
THE DRUG INDUSTRY’S TRIUMPH OVER THE DEA By Scott Higham and Lenny Bernstein
Oct. 15, 2017 (Washington Post investigation). Brief excerpts below:
…Political action committees representing the industry contributed at least $1.5 million to the 23 lawmakers who sponsored or co-sponsored four versions of the bill, including nearly $100,000 to Marino and $177,000 to Hatch. Overall, the drug industry spent $102 million lobbying Congress on the bill and other legislation between 2014 and 2016, according to lobbying reports.
“The drug industry, the manufacturers, wholesalers, distributors and chain drugstores, have an influence over Congress that has never been seen before,†said Joseph T. Rannazzisi, who ran the DEA’s division responsible for regulating the drug industry and led a decade-long campaign of aggressive enforcement until he was forced out of the agency in 2015. “I mean, to get Congress to pass a bill to protect their interests in the height of an opioid epidemic just shows me how much influence they have.â€