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Exploding the Myth of “Hindutva Terror”

19 July 2010 4,184 views 178 Comments

There is a new kid on the block. (S)he is called “Hindutva Terror” (aka “Hindu Terror”).  Chances are you have heard the word before; Chances are you have got annoyed, perhaps just a little bit angry and moved on. Chances are you have never paused to think who – and what – is this “Hindutva Terror”? Until a few days ago, I was in the group of people who – when they heard the word – would get a little annoyed, perhaps a little angry and then move on.

Then last week, alert reader (and a good friend) Anupam pointed me in the direction of this cover story in “Outlook” on “Hindutva Terror”. In my hurried & brief response on the blog, I wrote:

The article is grandly titled “Hindu Terror” but does not explain how these acts were motivated by “Hindu” beliefs or “Hindu” traditions. There are also a few references to “Hindutva” but no attempt is made to explain the term “Hindutva” or what it means according to the authors…

I also promised him and Sanjay a detailed response soon. Earlier today morning, as I re-read the “Outlook” cover story, I realised why “news” necessarily has to be “sensational” – because that is what sells.  But this post is about putting things in perspective, not about sensationalising them.

*** CAUTION: Long Post ***

Lets get back to the Outlook story. While the article was neither the first on this topic (nor will it be the last), it was “bolder” than most; more interestingly, it ended with a cryptic sentence (emphasis added):

Only when the CBI puts all the pieces together will the entire Hindutva terror picture emerge, if at all.

The by-line of the 2000-word long report, co-authored by Smruti Koppikar, Debarshi Dasgupta and Snigdha Hasan was “Hindu terror is a reality, yet India refuses to utter its name”.

It came on the back of an article by Praveen Swami on “The Rise Of Hindutva Terrorism” (also in Outlook) published in May. It is probably a good idea to look at the latter first. Praveen Swami’s report was based on the arrest of Devendra Gupta, a “pracharak” of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) along with his “political associates” Vishnu Prasad and Chandrashekhar Patidar on suspicion of planning the attack at Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh.

Up until that point, the blasts in Mecca Masjid (followed by the attack in Ajmer) were generally thought to be the work of Islamists. Praveen Swami had himself mentioned this possibility in his earlier reports on the blasts (emphasis added):

Thursday’s bombing of the saint’s shrine at Ajmer — the third in a series of attacks on Muslim religious institutions after the 2006 bombing of a Sufi shrine in Malegaon and this summer’s strike at the Mecca Masjid in Hyderabad — have been characterised as attempts to provoke a pan-India communal war. But the bombings also reflect another less-understood project: the war of Islamist neoconservatives against the syncretic traditions and beliefs that characterise popular Islam in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Most media reports of the time – relying on various  “sources” – mentioned how the attacks appeared to be linked and how they seem to have been executed by the same group. Most of the suspicion was directed at HuJI- Bangladesh.

The arrest of Devendra Gupta in Rajasthan was therefore “news” in more senses than one. Praveen used that arrest to focus attention on what he called “little-understood threat of Hindu-nationalist or Hindutva terrorism.

Sadly, in the 2500 words that followed, he neither defined nor explained what he meant by “Hindutva terrorism”. What we got instead was speculation…and a lot of not-always-relevant history. As an example (of speculation):

…former Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Digvijay Singh announced that he had evidence of the involvement of members of the Bajrang Dal, an affiliate of the RSS, in acts of terrorism. For reasons that are unclear, though, this evidence was not used to prosecute members of the organisation or any other suspects.

The one name that crops up in all these reports is Abhinav Bharat. A lot has been written about Abhinav Bharat as also its “links” with RSS. Yet no firm evidence has been offered to date regarding this assertion or the “links”; neither do any of the charge-sheets make this claim (to the best of my knowledge). Tellingly, none of the reports explain why an organisation with “links” to RSS would conspire to kill the top leadership of the Sangh.

Further, it remains unclear whether the arrested were acting on behalf of Abhinav Bharat (or indeed RSS) or independently of them. Swami’s report itself mentions the dissensions within Abhinav Bharat:

In June 2007, Purohit allegedly suggested that the time had come to target Muslims through terrorist attacks — a plea others in Abhinav Bharat rejected. But, evidence gathered by the Police suggests, many within the group were determined to press ahead…

And while Praveen Swami writes in some detail about Lt Col Purohit’s “plans to bring about a Hindutva state”, he does not say whether these were endorsed by the Abhinav Bharat leadership, or the RSS or another “Hindutva outfit” or indeed by any formal group or organisation. Back in February though, he had suggested the possibility of these individuals acting autonomously (emphasis added):

Matters are complicated by the fact that some of the operations attributed to Abhinav Bharat may not have had much to do with the group — even though its leading luminaries claimed responsibility for the attacks.

No wonder “despite the formidable mass of evidence it gathered, the Maharashtra investigation ran into a wall”. And while the arrests in Rajasthan are significant, they may not have much of an impact. As Swami says himself “(the arrests) may have removed a few bricks” from the “wall” but thats about it.

Continued below…

Outlook Cover Story

What Swami lacks by way of firm evidence though, he more than makes up by way of detail. So you have paragraphs after paragraphs devoted to members of Abhinav Bharat, their lives (and deaths) and sneaky statements in-between passing off as “facts”. To wit:

…the controversial Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, which operates a Hindu-proselytisation programme targeting adivasis (tribals) in southern Gujarat…”.

No references, no facts, no evidence. Just one innocuous sentence that is sneaked in. You might have missed the highlighted bit in the article if you had blinked. Thus having set the stage, Praveen moves on to a discussion of “What lessons ought India to be learning from the story of the Hindutva terror network?

Still no clarity on what exactly is this “Hindutva terror network”? Is this a few disgruntled members of Abhinav Bharat, with some people from Bajrang Dal thrown in? or is this something more sinister that goes deep through Hindu social organisations and political groups such as the RSS, Bajrang Dal, Vanvasi Parishad, and numerous other associations and institutions? No clarity on that.

Praveen then cleverly shifts the focus from the policies (and politics) of the past 60 years to find the roots of “Hindutva terror” – in Bal Gangadhar Tilak!

Influenced by the dramatic impact of terrorism in imperial Russia, the Hindu nationalist leader, Bal Gangadhar Tilak, became increasingly drawn to violence as a tool to achieve Indian independence. A year after the searing 1905 revolution, which compelled Czar Alexander II to grant basic civil rights, Tilak exhorted his followers: “The days of prayer have gone… Look to the examples of Ireland, Japan and Russia and follow their methods.

But how different is this statement of Tilak from the one made by Mahatma Gandhi?

To bring about such a state of things we should have the ability to defend ourselves, that is, the ability to bear arms and to use them…If we want to learn the use of arms with the greatest possible despatch, it is our duty to enlist ourselves in the army.”[ link and also here ]

How easy – and perfectly natural – would it be to add Tilak’s opening line to the above remarks by Gandhi?

The days of prayer have gone… To bring about such a state of things we should have the ability to defend ourselves, that is, the ability to bear arms and to use them..

But I digress. Back to the article. After a brief mention of a “number of mysteries (that) remain to be resolved”, Swami says, “The arrests over the past weeks notwithstanding, the threat remains real — and must be snuffed out.

What threat? From whom? From Abhinav Bharat? From RSS? From Bajrang Dal? Or from Hindus acting on their own – without any sanction (either from any group or associaton or institution) and without any legitimacy (which part of the “Sanatan” tradition advocates killing of innocents?).

Praveen prefers to remain mute on this matter. Instead he mentions more names and more groups:

Last year, in June, Hindu Janajagruti Samiti operatives were held for the bombing of the Gadkari Rangayatan theatre in Thane (Maharashtra)…Members of the Goa-based Sanatan Sanstha, affiliated to Hindu Janajagruti, were held for staging a bombing in Panani.

Earlier, Bajrang Dal-linked Rajiv Mishra and Bhupinder Singh were killed in a bomb-making accident in Kanpur, Uttar Pradesh (UP).

But were these people acting as part of a grand scheme of things? Sanctioned and blessed by a supra-organisational authority or were these autonomous acts of terror? No answers to such questions. Partly because they do not make “news”…and possibly because we do not know – yet.

More worrying than the lack of details and unanswered questions though are the insinuations and attempts at subtle persuasion. E.g. here is Swami writing earlier in the year about the German Bakery Blast (emphasis added):

Last week’s bombing of the German Bakery in Pune has brought the ugly story of Abhinav Bharat — the Hindutva terrorist group Purohit helped found — back from the obscurity to which it was consigned by the Mumbai carnage, which took place just days after the trial in Nashik began.

In private, Hindus sympathetic to the ultra-right have been saying the bombings demonstrate the moral legitimacy of Purohit and his Hindutva terror project.

He does not say just how? and which Hindus? And then almost lets the cat out of the bag – perhaps unwittingly:

Few investigators believe that the organisations — or other Hindutva cells — mounted the operation.

In which case Praveen, is it not a bit disingenuous to talk of “Hindutva Terror” as if it is some superbly organised and coordinated movement to destabilise India?

Some of you would remember that he subsequently changed his view on the Pune blasts and pointed the finger at Indian Mujahideen. But the “damage” was probably done by then. After all public memory is notoriously short and first impressions do count.

Back to the more recent “Outlook” cover-story. As I mentioned earlier, the article’s byline was:  “Hindu terror is a reality, yet India refuses to utter its name”. Strangely, within the first few lines, the gears shift. The reference moves from “Hindu terror” to “radical Hindu nationalist groups

…the trail finally led to Gupta and pointed to radical Hindu nationalist groups instead. Says Rajasthan Anti-Terrorist Squad chief Kapil Garg: “We have arrested some people of that religion (Hinduism) and we’re dead sure we’re on the right track.

In Hyderabad too, the CBI team believes it is on the right track, finally, in the Mecca Masjid bomb blasts case. Four men belonging to radical Hindu groups were arrested

Significantly none of these “radical Hindu nationalist” groups have been charged in any of the attacks (to the best of my knowledge) . So again, were these attacks carried out autonomously or were they sanctioned by those at the top and with their full knowledge?  And if it is the former, is it fair – or accurate – to labels these acts as “Hindutva terror” or “Saffron terror”?

As Offtsumped wrote in “Cookbook on dealing with Orwellian Media Tactics” (back in 2008), here is why the application of these phrases is patently wrong.

  • Reason #1 – To date there is not even a shred of evidence to conclude that there is a conspiracy to commit acts of Terror by any organization let alone one that swears by Hindutva
  • Reason #2 -Even if we were to indulge the theory floated in the media, to date there is no factual basis to establish that those who have committed these acts of Terror have sought moral sanction from Hindu Dharma

It is critical to make this important distinction.

  • There is a variety of Terrorism that swears by tenets of Islam and goes to great length to quote from the Quran and Hadiths to seek moral sanction for its actions
  • It does not exclusively target one community and is generally secular in its choice of victims

To date we have not been presented with any claims of responsibility by anyone by claiming moral sanction from any tenets of Dharma or any remotely hindu oriented doctrine of ancient or modern origin.

Let me add some more points to those raised by Offstumped above. Where are the texts and manuals of “Hindutva Terror”? Or are these just in the mind of the alleged perpetrators? And what about the public statements by RSS about its members and individuals who have been accused of involvement in these acts?

As it was becoming evident that (Sunil) Joshi (main accused in Ajmer and Hyderabad blasts) was going down an aggressive path, the RSS publicly distanced itself from him. [ link ]

Have these been noticed – and reported?

One report did carry the other view-point. In Rediff, Krishnakumar wrote:

(Deepak Joshi, BJP legislator) shies away from dubbing the phenomenon as Hindu terrorism.

“It is not organised to begin with,” he says, “And it does not have the sanction or approval of an organisation like the RSS.”

But the article had other subliminal messages that were subconsciously imposed:

The Malwa region is predominantly tribal. Indore…does not have much of an Adivasi presence. But Dhar is 75 percent Adivasi, Jhabua is nearly 100 percent Adivasi. Balwani, Khargon and Khandwa are 50 percent Adivasi.

The Hindus form the second biggest community

Notice anything funny? The last time I visited Malwa, the Adivasis in the region did not identify themselves as Christians or Muslims…so why this mischievous sentence?  In the meantime, new labels continue to be invented. In the words of Hon Home Minister Sh Chidambaram:

We don’t call it Hindu terror… The groups seem to subscribe to an extreme fundamentalist Hindu philosophy.

Of course neither Sh Chidambaram nor the reporters bothered to explain what exactly is this “fundamentalist Hindu philosophy“. Until I read this, I had always thought of fundamentals of Hindu philosophy in the great tradition of Vendata. Sh Chidamabram probably has other ideas.

Some of the news-reports on this topic are so thin on substance that they read like press releases. E.g.

All these arrests are an indication that investigators are slowly shifting their focus to the once neglected ‘Hindu terror’ groups and are waking up to the potent threat of ‘Hindutva terrorism’. Even though evidence of such groups existing has been there since 2002, investigative agencies have always turned a blind-eye towards them. Timely action on part of investigators could have helped saved many lives and prevent certain blasts.

Interestingly (and somewhat tellingly), none of these reports or their authors make any attempt to explain their understanding of “Hindutva. And so there is no way for us to judge ourselves whether these acts are a manifestation of something called “Hindutva terror” or whether these are “terror attacks by Hindus”? Nuance is already a casualty in mainstream media.

Significantly, the “Outlook” report mentions another label for Abhinav Bharat:

The 4,528-page chargesheet filed in the Malegaon case calls Abhinav Bharat an “organised crime syndicate”

I repeat, “organised crime syndicate” – not a political group, not an RSS affiliate. Although this Rediff report appears to contradict even that assertion:

A special court in Mumbai on Friday dropped the stringent Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act (MCOCA) invoked against Sadhvi Pragya Singh, Lt Col S P Purohit and nine other accused in 2008 Malegaon bomb blast case, saying none of them is part of an organised crime syndicate.

Even more troubling than the labels themselves is the fact that till date, not one of the accused has been convicted – and I am not just talking of “Hindu radicals” but also of  “Islamist* terror suspects”.

Is our criminal investigation apparatus really so inefficient that it has been unable to apprehend and convict even one terrorist in the last several years (the last conviction – if you leave aside Kasab’s case – was in the Parliament attack case from 2001).

Does it really take 10 years to complete an investigation? Or are these delays because of political pressures and with an eye on electoral equations? Is the bogey of Hindutva terror being raised with an eye on vote-banks? Is there more to it than what we are led to believe?

But the most important question that these arrests (and the attacks) raise is the one that on one dares speak about: Why do Hindus – who numerically constitute the majority in India and whose fundamental beliefs rest on tolerance and compassion for all beings – feel compelled to indulge in acts of terrorism?

This is a volatile question  – one that MSM will never ask – or will pretend that it is not important. But if Hindus are convicted in these attacks – then the question has to be asked – and need to be discussed if such attacks are to be pre-empted and avoided. Why does a Hindu in Hindu-majority India feel drawn to violent means to address his/her grievances? Why does the Hindu feel besieged in India?

This was the question my friend Sanjay indirectly asked on the blog, “In keeping with the spirit of this blog and especially of Satyameva Jayate, it would be worthwhile to investigate the raison d’etre and claims of organizations like Abhinav Bharat”.  In September 2008, I wrote the following in response (pl see comment #4) to a discussion on conversions:

A “Hindu” in India today feels besieged…he feels he is slowly being encircled…that his voice is not being heard and his concerns are not shared…

This perplexes him as he has always believed this is his motherland, his “natural” home, the birthplace of his faith…and yet, he feels unsafe in large parts of Bharat-bhumi…in Maharashtra (if he is from UP/Bihar), in Assam (likewise), in Kashmir, in Orissa…

He feels not only his life and personal safety but also his belief system is being attacked – slowly but systematically…

He feels exasperated that he has to preface every grievance that he may have by stressing his “secular” credentials – lest he be mistook for a “Hindutva-wadi”…He feels embarrassed to mention his faith in public discourse…and constantly feels that he is being forced on the backfoot…

At some point, this feeling gives way to anger – spontaneous, unplanned and unpredictable…and we all wonder where and how did this happen…

This is what you saw in Kandhamal…and in Jammu…unforeseen reaction of people who feel that their back is against the wall…

Is their logic to this? Probably not…but is the feeling real? It does appear to be…

This comment was echoed a month later by “reason” on Offstumped’s post (referred to above):

The Hindu feels threatened in India: There are several talking points – the speed at which this Melagaon blast was cracked compared to the absolute inaction following repeated blasts all across India, the very real sense of outrage Hindus felt at being repeatedly targeted, and the ignominy of secularists always at a rush to create justifications for those bombings – one editor wrote a piece in a foreign journal following the 2005 Mumbai train bombings to say that the bombs targeted upper class coaches that ‘Gujaratis’ travel in.

And a month later (Nov ’08), Radha Rajan concluded her article on ‘Hindu terrorism’ – see the writing on the wall with these words:

…fears of Hindu nationalism have brought this nation to the brink of self-destruction wreaked by jihad and the evangelical church, aided and abetted by India’s secular anti-Hindu polity. Sadhvi Pragya, Sameer Kulkarni, Maj. Upadhyay, Lt. Col. Purohit signal the determined rise of Hindu nationalism.

Hindu terrorism? Call it what you will – but see the writing on the wall. The war shall continue.

More recently, an astute observer of Indian politics echoed similar feelings (paraphrased to protect privacy):

…should (the Hindu) watch without reacting the terrorism against Hindus..and the erosion of their rights..(e.g.) the Sachar Report which underpins a whole ministry and its strategies? Are we going to  defend the Hindus by Ahimsa and means of non-violence? Are the rules different for different religions?

In Kerala, young Muslim men are being trained to become jihadis (ref the recent chopping of the hand of the Prof). With the full connivance of Congress and CPM, the banned groups have resurrected with new names. Things are worrying ..perhaps there are others who are silently watching ..but some of us feel compelled to act..If self-defence is considered terrorism, what would you call offensive and unprovoked terrorism?  Terrorism breeds terrorism. Will our stance be to show the other cheek if slapped on one? Are be becoming gutless and silent people who simply suffer? Patriotism cannot be silent and submissive.

It is not just people who are being killed, humiliated, abused and denied right to peaceful existences – but all the traditions, the parampara, the religious icons…(even) the territorial boundaries are being debased and compromised. How does one react to this? Allow ourselves to become the sacrificial goats?  How does one react when pushed to a corner?

Think about it…Think hard about this…because if this feeling of outrage, this sense of denial, this sense of being under siege is real…and becomes widespread, the future looks grim

A leadership that has failed us on multiple counts will not be able to face this tsunami of deeply-felt rage and frustration…and things might rapidly – and violently spin out of control. And if we stay mute, we will be silent accomplices to this act of destruction…As I wrote before, “This is the time when inaction is not an option and indifference will be suicidal.”  It is time to speak up..and take a stance.

Comments and thoughts welcome, as always.

P.S. As for Abhinav Bharat, I would simply repeat the conclusion from B Raman’s article, “Anti-Muslim Reprisal Terrorism?

Do these arrests strengthen the case for a ban on the Bajrang Dal or any other organisation to which they might have belonged? Or do they at least call for a characterisation of such orgainsations – even if they be of Hindus – as terrorist organisations? To characterise an organisation as a terrorist organisation and to take legal action against it – and not merely against its members – two types of evidence are required. Firstly, that its constitution or manifesto advocates the resort to violence amounting to terrorism for achieving its objective. Secondly, that it has been involved in repeated acts of  pre-meditated violence which amount to terrorism. One has to wait and see whether such evidence surfaces during the investigation.

Additional Readings:

Muslim Anger Vs Hindu Anger by B Raman

Praveen Swami lets the cat out of the bag by Offstumped

The Hunt for the elusive un-Hindu terrorist by Offstumped

‘It’s counter-Islamic terrorism, not Hindu terror’ (Ram Madhav in conversation with Sheela Bhatt, Rediff)

UPDATE: Apologies but this link appears to be broken| क्षमा करें परन्तु यह लिंक इस समय उपलब्ध नहीं है | पाठकगण श्री अमिताभ त्रिपाठी द्वारा किया गया इस लेख का हिंदी अनुवाद इस लिंक पर पढ़ सकते हैं:  “हिन्दू आतंकवाद के मिथक का पर्दाफाश” http://bit.ly/a718qu धन्यवाद अमिताभ!

Please continue to share your view and thoughts on this thread which I opened to reduce comment overload: Exploding the Myth of “Hindutva Terror” – Part 2

178 Comments »

  • 1. ashwani said:

    precise incision of the obfuscation brigade’s rants.

  • 2. Ashish Deodhar said:

    Whether or not these crimes were sanctioned by a Hindu organization is immaterial. The fact remains that these people committed these acts of terrorism in the name of Hinduism i.e. “to defend our way of life”!

    Sadly, I don’t see any evidence in this article of an outcry against these acts of terror as you would rightly expect against an Islamic act of terror. I thought this article could’ve done better than simply dissociating certain acts of terrorism from Hinduism and the parivar.

    I do see why the Hindus in India feel cornered and they have a good reason to feel so. The answer, however, is not in Hinduism but in the correct understanding of secularism. Unfortunately, secularism in India practically means anti-Hinduism. That understanding needs to be corrected.

    Blowing up trains, killing people on the streets, beating up women in pubs, bombing places of worship – whether or not commissioned by any Hindu organization – are silly acts by people who seem to have run out of ideas. The least we could do is not to endorse them.

  • 3. Usse farak padega kya said:

    Every keen political observer knows the truth. Most of those who read this blog fall into that category. The mischief (in the quoted article) is obvious. The purpose too. The motivation (of those who write such pieces) could be money, could be to make sure one keeps the job etc etc.

    But then, they are only doing their job. My questions to you – Is the article you quoted a piece of study? Is there a need to refute a mischief? Perhaps, the time might be best spent in addressing the root causes. And I will mention the root cause in one line.

    Is your Dharma carrying out its main function adequately? (remember the phrase Dharanat Dharmaha? or the one that Supports the society, so to say.. )

  • 4. ego said:

    Hi Shantanu,

    Great dissection. The article reminds me of what my friend recently mentioned when on this topic: “The articles on the existence of Hindutva terror are like pointers to pointers to pointers and finally you realize that the chain culminates with either a dangling pointer or a NULL pointer. But the chain of pointers is so long that people end up giving credibility to it assuming that it’ll all point to something that really exists! What we need are rebuttals which question the source of this chain in the first place.”

    This is indeed one such piece.

  • 5. Sudha Ghosh said:

    As usual, great post Shantanu.

  • 6. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:
    ” The fact remains that these people committed these acts of terrorism in the name of Hinduism i.e. “to defend our way of life”!”

    You seem to confuse facts with opinion.

    Fact 1. So far, no court has convicted and ‘Hindu Terrorists’. Orwellian media rants do not count as facts.

    Fact 2. So far, even after 2 years of incessant leaks the prosecution has not made there case in court against Sadhvi and Purohit.

    Opinions do not become facts because you say so.

  • 7. Malavika said:

    Here are a couple of more articles on Media scullduggery.

    “The ongoing campaign of calumny to demonise the RSS and denigrate Hindus by painting the first as a sponsor of terrorism and the second as a community of terrorists is by no stretch of the imagination ‘freedom of expression’. Nor does media have the freedom to malign or defame individuals and then seek shelter in its presumed immunity from scrutiny.”

    http://www.dailypioneer.com/269831/‘Free’-media-tars-RSS-with-fiction.html

    “While a section of the secularist brigade in the media and the establishment have been busy constructing the myth of ‘Hindu terror’, the real terrorists have made deep inroads into the ‘secular’ bastion of Kerala — a State that has incidentally never elected a BJP legislator”

    “Whether or not those fabricating fantasies of saffron terror are doing so to divert the nation’s attention from real terrorism is an issue that should concern security agencies. We all know how red herrings are frequently used by vested interests to shield the guilty from justice.”

  • 8. Malavika said:

    These excerpts are from Blbir K Punj article

    “While a section of the secularist brigade in the media and the establishment have been busy constructing the myth of ‘Hindu terror’, the real terrorists have made deep inroads into the ‘secular’ bastion of Kerala — a State that has incidentally never elected a BJP legislator”

    “Whether or not those fabricating fantasies of saffron terror are doing so to divert the nation’s attention from real terrorism is an issue that should concern security agencies. We all know how red herrings are frequently used by vested interests to shield the guilty from justice.”

    http://www.dailypioneer.com/270015/The-ill-winds-from-Arabia.html

  • 9. Shantanu said:

    I have no doubt that this piece of news was not published by any mainstream media -

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/india-jihadis-rape-and-torture-three-teenage-hindu-girls.html#comments

    My purpose is not to malign or spread hatred against any particular religion as I have respect for all religion. However, the biasedness, lies and taking advantage of the tolerance of a section is not only an extremely short term measure, but in the end counterproductive. Media will realize that soon, at a hefty price.

  • 10. Bhuvan said:

    ……and when IRA bombing was at peak, no one ever said CHRISTIAN TERROR. Having said that it is absurd to justify any terror and is more absurd to identify it with some community.

  • 11. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    1) Fact 1. So far, no court has convicted and ‘Hindu Terrorists’. Orwellian media rants do not count as facts.

    As a matter of fact, the Pakistani courts haven’t managed to convict Hafeez Saeed. Does that make him innocent? Does the fact that he’s a terrorist remain just your opinion?

    Have a look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8QSVvu2bw and tell me how is this different from the speeches Saeed has been making in Pakistan? Why do we have different yardsticks for different people committing pretty much the same crimes?

    2) “While a section of the secularist brigade in the media and the establishment have been busy constructing the myth of ‘Hindu terror’, the real terrorists have made deep inroads into the ‘secular’ bastion of Kerala — a State that has incidentally never elected a BJP legislator”

    I grant that you haven’t said this yourself but you’ve quoted this statement to build your case. Hence this question to you – by the “secularist brigade…. in the establishment”, you seem to refer to the Congress or the left government. It is the same congress government that is aggressively pursuing the likes of Hafeez Saeed in Pakistan and pushing Pakistan against the wall on this issue. Why do you think the government is trying to bring to justice those behind the worst terrorist attacks in the country but shield some of the less vicious acts of terror? What’s your logic to prove this discrepancy? Why would they want to get rid of “the best” (in terrorism) and protect the not-so-good?

    Tell you what, this may be just my opinion, but I am pretty sure that this ‘hindu terrorism’ (won’t get into technicalities of the label) is not as threatening yet as ‘islamic terrorism’ simply because of their lack of resourcefulness and thank heavens for it. If these people manage to get their hands on things like RDX and AK-47, they are equally capable of causing mayhem in our midst.

    Finally, please don’t demean secularism because people in India don’t understand it.

  • 12. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:

    MP: 1) Fact 1. So far, no court has convicted and ‘Hindu Terrorists’. Orwellian media rants do not count as facts.

    AD: As a matter of fact, the Pakistani courts haven’t managed to convict Hafeez Saeed. Does that make him innocent? Does the fact that he’s a terrorist remain just your opinion?

    MP: Do you think Indian courts(imperfect for sure) are equivalent to Paki Courts?.

    We, in India judge people based on the evidence presented in court of law not Media Kangaroo court.

    You still did not answer my fact 2, here it is again

    Fact 2. So far, even after 2 years of incessant leaks the prosecution has not made their case in court against Sadhvi and Purohit. Why?

  • 13. Malavika said:

    AD: It is the same congress government that is aggressively pursuing the likes of Hafeez Saeed in Pakistan and pushing Pakistan against the wall on this issue. Why do you think the government is trying to bring to justice those behind the worst terrorist attacks in the country but shield some of the less vicious acts of terror? What’s your logic to prove this discrepancy? Why would they want to get rid of “the best” (in terrorism) and protect the not-so-good?

    Congress is playing with lives of aam Citizen by mollycoddling terrorists.

    Exhibit A: Afzal Guru.

    Exhibit B:
    “The Congress on Thursday attacked the CPM-led government in Kerala for going after the extremist Popular Front of India (PFI) whose activists have been accused of chopping the right hand of a college lecturer.”

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/cong-goes-soft-on-kerala-muslim-group-that-hacked-teachers-hand/647296/0

  • 14. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    1. Yes I believe that Pakistani courts are as good or bad as the Indian courts. They too have an independent judiciary. But if you think they are inferior to Indian courts in any way, please do back that claim up with some evidence.

    2. Answer to your second question is in your first point – that Indian courts are imperfect. We all know how long it takes to close a case in the Indian courts – the 1993 Mumbai blasts case was resolved only in 2008!

  • 15. Shailendra Chauhan said:

    Media journalism has reached a new low by sensationalizing topics like one I have just read. I have a problem with the writer, editor but most importantly people who read and buy such magazines. There is no dearth of problems but this seems to be an effort to create a new divide between religions.

    I pity Vinod Mehta and his team. He still believes, when he compares Islamic Terrorism to the Hindu variety, that Hinduism is as globalised as Islam!

    Some one needs to drill a point in their head that Journalism is much more than hypothesis.

    http://WWW.indiafirstfoundation.org

  • 16. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @ Shantanu

    “My purpose is not to malign or spread hatred against any particular religion as I have respect for all religion.”

    I will have to disagree with you on that. I don’t see any reason religions such as Islam should deserve any respect.

    I agree with you that a considerable section of the political establishment appease the Islamists for the sake of votes. That, however, doesn’t justify the extremism of the Hindu organizations and we shouldn’t tolerate that. If at all, there’s a greater need to promote secularism in a country that’s increasingly becoming very intolerant.

    @Malavika

    “Congress is playing with lives of aam Citizen by mollycoddling terrorists.”

    That’s some opinion! And very judgmental at that! I don’t think the Congress has got everything right, especially on the economy front, but this government done a much better job of dealing with Pakistan and terrorism than any previous governments have.

  • 17. seadog4227 said:

    Articles on the above subject by Vinod Mehta, Praful Bidwai, Siddharth Varadarajan, Praveen Swami, Vir Sanghvi and a host of others,including the Slimes of India, don’t count.
    Observing their articles for more than 15 years, and at least 45 years in the case of the Slimes, gives a clear indication of where they are coming from.
    These individuals, and the media owners behind them, whether it is the Southern Baptists or Rupert Murdoch, are the root cause of this constant and deadly bias, and it fits the Congress bill perfectly. Since none of the Nehru-Gandhis were/are Hindus, secularism is exactly what they desire and work towards, and the Hindus are in the way.It is as simple as that.
    Just watching the ELM shows a much larger agenda at work.

  • 18. Usse farak padega kya said:

    And what is your agenda, ye outraged commentators? To make some difference or to prove a point?

  • 19. Muthu said:

    “This is what you saw in Kandhamal”…

    Read this by Brannon Parker.

    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/orissa-in-the-crossfire-kandhamal-burning/6046401

    It is a 452 pages document.

    There is a pdf available for download on the right hand side Just try.

  • 20. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:
    @Malavika

    1. Yes I believe that Pakistani courts are as good or bad as the Indian courts. They too have an independent judiciary. But if you think they are inferior to Indian courts in any way, please do back that claim up with some evidence.

    MP:In your eagerness to be a spokesperson of Congress you are undermining India and bringing it to the level of Pakis. According to Paki Logic Hafeez is innocent because he killed Kaffirs. What is your excuse?

    MP: You show why Supreme Court of India is wrong about sentencing Afzal and Congress is right about not completing the sentence.

    2. Answer to your second question is in your first point – that Indian courts are imperfect. We all know how long it takes to close a case in the Indian courts – the 1993 Mumbai blasts case was resolved only in 2008!

    So, Afzal should be on death row till another Hijak and then balme Bajrangi’s.

  • 21. Malavika said:

    MP: “Congress is playing with lives of aam Citizen by mollycoddling terrorists.”

    AD: That’s some opinion! And very judgmental at that! I don’t think the Congress has got everything right, especially on the economy front, but this government done a much better job of dealing with Pakistan and terrorism than any previous governments have.

    Here your intellectual dishonesty shows. I provided two pieces of evidence to back up my claim that Congress is playing with the security of Indian citizens, you conveniently removed those two. Here they are again

    Exhibit A: Afzal Guru.

    Exhibit B:
    “The Congress on Thursday attacked the CPM-led government in Kerala for going after the extremist Popular Front of India (PFI) whose activists have been accused of chopping the right hand of a college lecturer.”

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/cong-goes-soft-on-kerala-muslim-group-that-hacked-teachers-hand/647296/0

    You AD, show us how the above two instances help national security of India.

  • 22. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    I don’t understand why people on this blog get so personal!

    1) “MP:In your eagerness to be a spokesperson of Congress…”

    What gave that away?

    2) “According to Paki Logic Hafeez is innocent because he killed Kaffirs.”

    What’s the evidence?

    3) “So, Afzal should be on death row till another Hijak and then balme Bajrangi’s.”

    Feeble logic and incoherent argument.

    Afzal Guru’s case has nothing to do with the judiciary anymore. The government is sitting on that case. So it’s a totally irrelevant point. And anyway, was the Hindu right-wing blamed for the 1999 hijack? (if that’s what you are referring to).

  • 23. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    Afzal Guru should’ve been hanged long back. I agree with the assessment that the longer we keep him alive, the bigger threat he is to national security. And the government has not shown enough guts in dealing with this issue and although I personally think that it’s unacceptable, I see the government’s point about Afzal Guru’s sentencing having an effect on the overall Kashmir situation. They have their reasons and I don’t agree with them but I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that they are in some way being dishonest with the Indian public. Even the BJP had to export terrorists to Afghanistan to prevent an undesirable situation!

    The Kerala incident is a very different one from that of Afzal Guru. Such things happen in the country every single day. I personally know a relation who was abducted to be slaughtered as ‘bali’ in front of some goddess. This has nothing to do with national security – it’s a matter of law & order and the administration should deal with such elements strictly.

    So if the government has gone soft of this issue, it’s deplorable. The point I am making is that the fact that such incidents happen and the government shows inaction in dealing with them isn’t a good justification for another form of extremism and its endorsement in any shape or form by the people.

  • 24. Anupam said:

    Great post Shantanu. As usual, you are spot on. Restraining myself from commenting on Ashish’s response. More later.

    Anupam

  • 25. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Dear All: Thanks for the stream of comments…very thought-provoking…I will try and respond to all…although it may take some time..

    For now, just a quick link in response to the Kerala incident…It may be more than just “law & order”. Comments re. that incident on the other thread please.

    Thanks once again.

  • 26. Malavika said:

    AD:

    So, you agree that Congress is putting Vote Bank politics in front of National security.

    NExt issue:

    You conveniently glossed over Congress and Left coddling Islamist terror as pointed by Balbir K Punj

    “Was this the result of political ties that the ‘secular’ establishment had forged with Muslim extremist organisations for years? Did not the Congress and Marxists join hands prior to the last Assembly election seeking release of jihadi leader Abdul Nasser Madani who was being tried for masterminding the Coimbatore blasts which claimed at least 70 innocent lives?

    Congress party in AP has a tie up with secular(Orwellian) MIM who attacked Taslima Nasreen in HYD.

    Indian Muslims from Kerala were fighting Indian army in Kashmir.

    A senior police officer from Kerala talks to India most wanted in GUlf.

    Kashmir is spiralling out of control.

    With such impeccable communal track record Congress blabber about ‘Hindutva terror’ rings hollow. With establishment cheer leaders(Media) in full lynch mob mode, aam citizens must be vigilant. And This article is a good expose of ‘paid media’.

  • 27. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:
    @Malavika

    I don’t understand why people on this blog get so personal!

    1) “MP:In your eagerness to be a spokesperson of Congress…”

    What gave that away?

    Your blind faith in Congress national security credentials, inspite of Sharam El Shaik disaster, nuclear liabilty bill and so on. Explain why Nuclear liablity bill is not another Bhopal in making.

  • 28. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @ Malavika

    1) “Explain why Nuclear liablity bill is not another Bhopal in making.”

    Woah am scared :D

    You are quipping me on this as if I signed the bill!

    2) “So, you agree that Congress is putting Vote Bank politics in front of National security.”

    No. I said that I see the point that executing Afzal Guru would make the situation in Kashmir even more worse than it is and that’s not in the best national interest. So I see a reason behind keeping Guru alive for the time being. It’s a catch-22 situation and there isn’t a right solution to this problem. If we executive him, we would face trouble, if we don’t, he remains a trouble.

    This is not the same as vote bank politics though. And by the way, no party could claim innocence from vote bank politics. It’s a sad reality in India.

    3) Congress party in AP has a tie up with secular(Orwellian) MIM who attacked Taslima Nasreen in HYD. – BJP has tied up with Shiv Sena in Maharashtra who regularly attack Indian citizens and vandalize public property. The BJP themselves have attacked and vandalized M.F. Hussain’s art galleries. So no party is immune from coalition politics and no party could claim innocence from causing law & order problems.

    Indian Muslims from Kerala were fighting Indian army in Kashmir – evidence please. By the way, BJP and the parivar cadres are fighting Indians within the Indian national boundaries. Again, not defending anti-national elements, whichever religion they belong to!

    A senior police officer from Kerala talks to India most wanted in GUlf. – again, evidence please. A senior army officer has been in the dock for terror-related charges. What’s the point?

    Kashmir is spiralling out of control – That’s a fact. What’s the point?

    Something for you to ponder – why do you think the Congress, along with the mainstream media and the law & order establishment, wants to destabilize India and give it to Islamic extremists on a plater and yet the “aam aadmi” you talk about has been voting them term after term in office? There’s has to be some sensible reason that you see and I don’t.

    Let’s face it. This alarmism doesn’t work anymore. Those days are long gone.

  • 29. ashwani said:

    It is all congress vote-bank technech and anti hindu propaganda by christian+communist media afraid of islamic terrorism and muslims rath. Hindus have to suffer untill they vote colectively and send persons like Narender Mody to prliament. Congress and communists will sell the country.

  • 30. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    @Deodhar, Indeed many from Kerala were recruited to fight in Kashmir. You can go through the following link and if further information is required you may search the net.

    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/two-militants-from-kerala-shot-in-valley-trying-to-cross-loc-police/370672/

    These terrorists are fighting Indian Army after getting training from Pakistani terrorist camps after crossing LOC. It is a spacious argument that Indian nationals fighting Indian Army.

    You can get the news about the senior police officer too doing a search.

    After the recent incident of chopping of hand of a Professor every day there is some terror/militant related news in local news papers.

  • 31. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Ashwini

    Again, the question is – why would the congress, the left and everyone else except the BJP sell the country? What’s the basis of this claim?

    @Subramanian

    Thanks for the link. I will do some more research into this to find out if this was a one-off incident or it’s a developing trend over the years. If it’s a growing trend, then it’s a matter of worry.

  • 32. Ashish Deodhar said:

    Did some quick google research on this – so by no means comprehensive. But although the claim that many from Kerala are fighting in Kashmir are a little exaggerated, there appears to be a disturbing enough trend in the rise of Islamic extremism.

    http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/database/keralaislamist.htm

    Although I don’t see as a very big problem, this has the potential to be very dangerous. But the good news, at least from the link that I have posted, is that the law & order machinery is working fairly well to contain this trend.

    The latest ‘hand-chopping’ incident does show how confident these guys are getting. A matter of worry, indeed but not apocalyptic.

  • 33. Malavika said:

    AD
    “Thanks for the link. I will do some more research into this to find out if this was a one-off incident or it’s a developing trend over the years. If it’s a growing trend, then it’s a matter of worry.”

    You need to read a Lot, about every thing including Nuclear liablity. Till then don’t show off your pathetic ignorance.

    And yes, only the paranoid survive, said the wise ones like Andy Grove, Art De Guss. And we kaffirs intent to survive unlike Paki, Bangla and Kashmir Hindus.

  • 34. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    That message was for Subramanian but cheers anyway to your unsolicited intervention.

    I think you’ve read my comment in a hurry and definitely didn’t go through the link. Although there seems to be a growing trend in Islamic extremism in Kerala, it’s not at all to the extent of what you are making it out to be and it seems to be definitely being contained by the law & order machinery. So your whole “government-selling-the-country” thesis doesn’t have legs to stand on. Now I could give you an advice or two about reading up a bit and not listening to provocative speeches and forming your opinions etc but I could do better than that.

    Anyway, I will repeat what I’ve been saying all along. You can not fight one form of extremism with another form of extremism. As I said in one of my previous comments, there’s a reason for hindu disillusionment but the solution is not in extremism, it’s in the correct understanding of secularism.

    About the ‘survival of kaffirs’ part, I reserve my comment because your’s was just very juvenile.

    Cheers!

  • 35. Arvind said:

    Notice this. Ashish asks for evidence for everything Malavika says, however, says that for implicating hindu terrorists no evidence is required. We know what Pak is and how Pak courts function, but Ashish wants evidence. The person who has a closed mind, will never accept a problem.

  • 36. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Arvind

    Ashish asks for evidence for everything Malavika says, however, says that for implicating hindu terrorists no evidence is required.

    I may have missed this part. Would you be kind enough to show me where I said that?

  • 37. Anand Jain said:

    Hi Shantanu,

    Being apolitical and keeping in mind your suggestion to stay away from politics, I still felt compelled to write back on this post.

    I miss the point of this whole article as it is true that:
    - The political machinery in India as a whole is responsible for bringing the current state of affairs, so blaming a single party for what is happening is useless. Today’s India is governed by various coalitions in various states. We have seen the futility of successive “Hindutva” led governments in States and Center and they have surpassed all records of corruption, so any talk of a Hindutva based political solution is fruitless.

    - Since when have we started equating tolerance with shame. Hindu tolerance is meant to accomodate all – but let us look at History and now, and you will realise that it is the social methods rather than political that have brought greater problems to our society.

    Brahmins long kept scores of people as outcastes to maintain there supremacy and the same echoed in the bureaucracy until reservations brought some respite. Look at today’s bureaucratic setup and its constituents and you will find that the majority of all leading posts are held by Brahmins…by default or by design ??

    Vaish/Jains/Vanias kept a hold on the economy and take a closer look and you will find that they still control a majority of Indian economy, what with Jains (1% of population) paying more than 20% of income tax (don’t count the black money)…by default or by design ??

    Why is hiring a muslim still considered the last choice in a company? Why after 50 years of independence our so called tolerant society has not been able to accommodate Muslims, Scheduled Castes and other lowly beings into the mainstream ? Why does the BJP still a Bania-Brahmin party after all its efforts to engage Muslims / Dalits in the party ?

    Speak about Hindu Terror, we are facing it in Indore, which is overtaken by Goons belonging to bhagwa brigade, from hafta wasooli to extortion to land grabbing to murders in broad daylight, we are witnessing it all under the aegis of our beloved Minister and MLAs who happily sing Bhajans and organise a Yagna every month.

    The fact remains that we are still the high-browed / upper caste society (a mojority of us) who balk at the thoughts eating with a muslim or a shudra… who prefer to leave the risk of guarding the frontiers to the army and eat away our own national assets with pride. We are most corrupt of the states and are happy about it.

    Friends, it is all about money and an equal share in the growth, that keeps everyone happy…else let us get ready for more Kashmirs, sponsored by our own state…more naxals…more farmer suicides.

    Education to all, not bombs, should be the Hindu answer, Economic Inclusion and not ambush should be our tool. If you want to create a happy India, it will not be a Hindu or a Muslim India, it will be an economically strong India.

  • 38. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Santanu

    Not to mean any disrespect to you personally, but I am quite pleased to see someone like Anand Jain on this blog. You are a breath of fresh air Anand.

    I eco Anand’s thoughts. I have said it somewhere on this blog that these Hindu extremists stand for anything but Hinduism. In fact, they are turning Hinduism in just another Islam.

    We are facing some tough times with Islamic extremism and as Anand says, the solution is in tolerance and inclusiveness, not in intolerance and division.

  • 39. Malavika said:

    @Arvind

    Ashish asks for evidence for everything Malavika says, however, says that for implicating hindu terrorists no evidence is required.

    AD: I may have missed this part. Would you be kind enough to show me where I said that?

    Re Read your posts don’t expect others to do your home work.

    AD: I think you’ve read my comment in a hurry and definitely didn’t go through the link. Although there seems to be a growing trend in Islamic extremism in Kerala, it’s not at all to the extent of what you are making it out to be and it seems to be definitely being contained by the law & order machinery. So your whole “government-selling-the-country” thesis doesn’t have legs to stand on. Now I could give you an advice or two about reading up a bit and not listening to provocative speeches and forming your opinions etc but I could do better than that.

    Malavika: The entire post is good example of opinions and intellectual skullduggary. There is not one bit of evidence or facts mentioned to support your thesis that “there seems to be a growing trend in Islamic extremism in Kerala, it’s not at all to the extent of what you are making it out to be and it”.

    Meanwhile all facts about chopping hands, some people fighting Indian Army must be brushed aside. Ofcourse AD never lets facts get in the way. I am glad netizens are discerning enough to notice this skullduggery.

  • 40. Malavika said:

    Shantanu,

    I am sure you and others have noticed that the usual Trojan Horses, Caste, Brahmins, Banias have been brought in. This article is not about Ashrafs and Ailafs not intermarrying or separate burials for Brahmin Cathilocs and Dalit Catholics.

    This article is about media representation of Mythical Hindutva terror Vs Islamist terror.
    I think we should stick to this topic. It is interesting to note that the same Outlook in the aftermath of 26/11 had “Frogmen at the gate” as its cover story on Dec 8, 2008. The cover story had just terror in the headline not Islamist Terror or Jihadi terror, even though there was ample evidence of both. No such nuances when it comes to ‘so called Hindu terror’ as has been pointed by you.

  • 41. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    You are getting on my nerves now. Your rude language is downright childish and deplorable. So this is my last response to you.

    I never said that Hindu extremists should be implicated without any evidence and I urge you to show to me where I have said that.

    Just to quote two of your highly sensational remarks:

    a) “Congress is playing with lives of aam Citizen by mollycoddling terrorists.” – comment 13

    As it turns out, if you go through the link, regular arrests have been made and cases filed against muslim extremists in Kerala, a far cry from “mollycoddling” as you put it.

    b) “And we kaffirs intent to survive unlike Paki, Bangla and Kashmir Hindus.” – comment 33

    The less I say, the better. If you think that you’ll have to survive a barely 14% muslim population, majority of which is simply trying to make a living, you are not paranoid. You are a lunatic!

    I deplore people like you who seek to make a mountain out of a mole hill and destabilize the country in the process. Shame on you.

  • 42. Sid said:

    Anand,
    Brahmins long kept scores of people as outcastes to maintain there supremacy and the same echoed in the bureaucracy until reservations brought some respite. – If Brahmins controlled everything then who brought this reservation policy into reality? If Brahmins are so full of hatred of supposedly lower caste, who exactly allowed Ambedkar to write the constitution?

    and you will find that the majority of all leading posts are held by Brahmins – Can we start with some examples, please? And also how does the system in India designed in such a way?

    Vaish/Jains/Vanias kept a hold on the economy ... Indian economy – Ooopsss, who or what stopped others to start business? How did they control the economy? The fact that Indian economy did not see a lot of wealth generating activity because Nehruvite solialism steadily discouraged any private effort to generate wealth.

    what with Jains (1% of population) paying more than 20% of income tax (don’t count the black money)…by default or by design ?? – Where is your supporting statistics?

    Why is hiring a muslim still considered the last choice in a company? – Who exactly did not hire Muslims? Can you show some examples please? I have done recruitment in India and I am not aware of any such declared policies. Are you trying to sell a conspiracy theory here?

    Why after 50 years of independence our so called tolerant society has not been able to accommodate Muslims, Scheduled Castes and other lowly beings into the mainstream ? – Spare us the hyperbole. If Dalits are not in the mainstream, Mayawati could not have become the CM, she got more than Dalit votes in UP in last election, did she not?

    Why does the BJP still a Bania-Brahmin party after all its efforts to engage Muslims / Dalits in the party ? – I have no sympathy for BJP now, but ever heard about Bangaru Lakshman?

    Speak about Hindu Terror... a Yagna every month. – I see. So any ant-social element who is Hindu is a Hindu terrorist, is it? I am inclined to know if such elements sang Bhajan while beating people or extorted money in the name of their God or not. There are people of other faith who does comparable stuff and there is still deaf silence on associating them with their religion.

    The fact remains that we are still the high-browed / upper caste society (a mojority of us) who balk at the thoughts eating with a muslim or a shudra… – You may like to take a look at the definition of the word “fact”, branding any sentence as fact requires a crucial condition to be satisfied: there needs to be supporting evidence.

    who prefer to leave the risk of guarding the frontiers to the army and eat away our own national assets with pride. We are most corrupt of the states and are happy about it. – And your point is? Everybody should be guarding the borders, not just army? When Army gets repeatedly maligned by the “secular” clan in the media, I did not hear any voice of protest from Hindu bashers like you. Frustrated and agitated, huh?

    Friends, it is all about money and an equal share in the growth, that keeps everyone happy… – So what should be done?

    else let us get ready for more Kashmirs, sponsored by our own state…more naxals…more farmer suicides. – Arundhati Roy theory of governance. Do you know why farmer suicides happen? Do you know when and how the terrorism in Kashmir started? If the agitated farmers and tribals are all that Naxals are made of, then can you imagine a situation where an uneducated, untrained and frustrated tribal youth takes a rocket launcher, fires towards a CRPF vehicle and brings it down? Is it just that easy without foreign funding, training and edcucation?

    Education to all, not bombs, should be the Hindu answer, – Answer to what? Who in the Hindu community offering bombs anyway? And who denied rights to education?

    If you want to create a happy India, it will not be a Hindu or a Muslim India, it will be an economically strong India. – Economic strength alone achieves nothing, the society must be made stronger.

  • 43. Sid said:

    Ashish,
    Would you care to elaborate how does the “Hindu terrorists” (last time we spoke, I thought you were claiming that terrorists can not be associated with any religion) are turning Hinduism (a term that is foreign itself) into “just another Islam” (last time we spoke, I thought you find nothing deplorable with Islam only, all religions are bad)? Making a journey from atheism to secularism, is it?

  • 44. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sid

    We spoke a lot of things. Could you please guide me to my exact statement so that I could comment on it?

    I am done with the term Hinduism. The Hinduism brigade itself isn’t sure about what it means – it shifts between a religion and a way of life as per convenience.

    Yes and I stick to my argument that all religions are bad. But I’ve also made it abundantly clear on many occasions that Islam is especially dangerous and should have no place in a civilized society.

    Atheism to secularism is not a journey Sid. Atheism is my personal opinion on the existence of a supernatural being; secularism is my way of life. I may not agree with your version of god but I will treat you equally and fairly without any prejudice or discrimination.

  • 45. Sid said:

    @Ashish,
    We spoke a lot of things. Could you please guide me to my exact statement so that I could comment on it? – So is that a denial? Or you actually do not know what you talk about?

    I am done with the term Hinduism. The Hinduism brigade itself isn’t sure about what it means – it shifts between a religion and a way of life as per convenience. – Which Hinduism brigade? I am not aware of any group calling itself Hinduism brigade. Hinduism encompasses lot of books, multiple schools of philosophy and a very wide array of rituals/mantras/suggestions. Naturally, people who subscribe to it also vary in thinking and attitude towards it. Nobody is official spokesperson for Hinduism and that decentralization is one of it’s many beauties and strength. Some view Hinduism as a collection of worship and rituals, some are just okay with visiting temples every week, some love it for it’s philosophical content and some are just happy to practice one of the Yoga darshana (not the Deepak Chopra variety). There is something for everybody in it. I too am done with Hinduism, the term itself is foreign, it needs to be done away with.

    Yes and I stick to my argument that all religions are bad. But I’ve also made it abundantly clear on many occasions that Islam is especially dangerous and should have no place in a civilized society. – So what happened to your comment on http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/11/16/the-idea-of-india/ , comment #45, where according to you jihad is just seeking justice? Or does that change as per convenience?

    I may not agree with your version of god but I will treat you equally and fairly without any prejudice or discrimination. – Ooopsss, it is a long journey indeed!! I may be wrong, but when you made an entry in this forum you declared that religion has no place in the modern world, did you not? Or do some principles lend themselves to different meaning as per convenience?

  • 46. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sid

    1) So is that a denial? Or you actually do not know what you talk about?

    – Neither. I don’t know what YOU are talking about!

    2) Which Hinduism brigade?… it needs to be done away with.

    – Good. If that’s what you understand of Hinduism, I am with you. By ‘Hinduism brigade’, I was referring to the parivar clan who seem to have hijacked the concept.

    3) So what happened to your comment on http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/11/16/the-idea-of-india/ , comment #45

    – You’ll have to see that comment in the context of the discussion. My comment was in response to comment #40 to demonstrate how easy it is to use the concept of jihad to justify violence.

    4) Ooopsss, it is a long journey indeed!! I may be wrong, but when you made an entry in this forum you declared that religion has no place in the modern world, did you not?

    – Yes I did indeed. And I stand by that opinion. As I said, that’s my personal opinion but I am not liable to enforce it on others and let it have any influence on my dealings with people in the society.

  • 47. Sid said:

    @Ashish,
    – Neither. I don’t know what YOU are talking about! – I was just talking about the various smart ways you deny your statements. Even in this post, you actually demanded that you stood by your statement yet conveniently avoided any need to defend your earlier statement about religion and modern society.

    Good. If that’s what you understand of Hinduism, I am with you. By ‘Hinduism brigade’, I was referring to the parivar clan who seem to have hijacked the concept. – Not all Hindus are represented by Parivar clan. Even there are organizations/personalities inside Parivar who are very clean and has a good understanding of Dharma but media loves to focus on Pramod Muthaliks because such characters confirm their bias and helps them avoid inconvenient questions. Living in Bengal, I was raised with the idea that RSS pracharaks are blood-thirsty animals and Bajrang Dal are nothing but a bunch of crazy guys with red-mark in their forehead. When I got out of my state (and much later country), I met some RSS people with certain doubts and lot of apprehension. Gradually, I realized that this community is like any other community – some are thuggish, some are hot-headed, some are intelligent and level-headed. The tragic part is that most of these people do not have very in-depth knowledge of what they preach about. I briefly thought to join the organization but problem is that the life-style they think re-present “Indian-ness” is a life-style of retirees, it does not offer a clear and obvious way of life for a young Indian (not just Hindu) who also considers material success as a part of life. It has a terrific organizational skill, but it lacks an intellectual vision, something it has despised from the times of Golwalkar. My suggestion to anyone would be to talk to them, even with doubts or apprehension and make their own decisions.

    You’ll have to see that comment in the context of the discussion. My comment was in response to comment #40 to demonstrate how easy it is to use the concept of jihad to justify violence. – I mostly agree with comment #40. I can actually quote ayats from the Qur’an and show you where it talks about four types of Jihad. I can also quote Hadith on “greater Jihad” and give you a complete picture of scholarly debate around it and it’s meaning. But doing so serves no purpose on this thread. I do not think your comment and that comment can be placed together in any context.

    Yes I did indeed. And I stand by that opinion. As I said, that’s my personal opinion but I am not liable to enforce it on others and let it have any influence on my dealings with people in the society. – I do not know how declining religion a role in modern society and accepting other’s religious beliefs can be placed together in the same frame, but apparently you are no stranger to self-contradiction.

  • 48. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sid

    My final comment on the four points you raised. I’ll stop here because I don’t see how they contribute to the main topic of discussion.

    1) I was just talking about the various smart ways you deny your statements. Even in this post, you actually demanded that you stood by your statement yet conveniently avoided any need to defend your earlier statement about religion and modern society.

    – I actually didn’t deny any of my statements yet. In fact, I have repeatedly said that I stand by my statements and opinions. About religion, I’ll say this again – In my opinion, religion should have no place in a modern, civilized society because it doesn’t contribute much to it. However, that’s my personal opinion and I don’t intend to force it on others. I think I’ve made that as simple as I could to understand!

    2) Not all Hindus are represented by Parivar clan….

    – I used to go to a shakha myself as a teenager and have seen and known these people closely. They are simple, ordinary middle-class people but with an unrealistic set of perceptions of, and ambitions in, a world around them. Most of them haven’t travelled enough, haven’t seen other cultures, haven’t spent any time with other people and that reflects in their world view. The good part so far is that they haven’t had a charismatic leader yet. My impression of RSS cadre is that of a Nazi waiting for its Hitler!

    3) I do not think your comment and that comment can be placed together in any context.

    – Well it does and that’s why I used that example. From my understanding of the concept of jihad, it’s very subjective and could be interpreted in any way you want. The armed jihad appears most glorious to the young blood and the islamic extremists have utilized it to the fullest. But as you rightly said, it’s something we need not discuss on this forum.

    4) I do not know how declining religion a role in modern society and accepting other’s religious beliefs can be placed together in the same frame…

    – It’s my personal opinion that a religion has no role to play in a modern, civilized society because it doesn’t contribute much to it. However, that’s MY opinion and it’s not binding on anyone else. I will accept that others may have different opinions/beliefs and I will have to live with that. That doesn’t mean, however, that I accept others’ religious beliefs. That’s the fundamental of a liberal, secular society. I need not agree with anyone but still let everyone hold their own beliefs so long as they don’t harm anyone. I don’t see any contradiction in this whatsoever!

    5) but apparently you are no stranger to self-contradiction.

    – I am very good at sarcasm myself and have learnt over the years that it doesn’t help much in a healthy debate. I would avoid sarcasm if I were you.

    Good day!

  • 49. Sid said:

    @Ashish,
    Yes, we should stop there.
    Your central point revolves around your statement that you do not believe in religion having no role in the society yet you are perfectly okay to accept those who would make religion as part of the society. Well, society is like a human body and if in a human body one leg goes to east and other leg goes to west, soon the body cease to exist. If A and B are opposite one can not support both A and B at once if he/she wants to be honest with himself/herself.
    My impression of RSS cadre is that of a Nazi waiting for its Hitler! – Really? Is that your understanding? Would you care to elaborate on the similarities between Nazi and RSS cadre?

  • 50. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:

    “I never said that Hindu extremists should be implicated without any evidence and I urge you to show to me where I have said that.”

    You said earlier post# 2

    “Whether or not these crimes were sanctioned by a Hindu organization is immaterial. The fact remains that these people committed these acts of terrorism in the name of Hinduism i.e. “to defend our way of life”!”

    Here you clearly claim “these people committed these acts of terrorism in the name of Hinduism” without any evidence and judged them guilty. Either you are a schizophrenic or a shameless liar.

  • 51. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:

    “My impression of RSS cadre is that of a Nazi waiting for its Hitler!”

    My impression of you is that you are a Pol Pot wadi.

    Your impression is not based on evidence nor is mine. Fair enough.

  • 52. sat said:

    Shantanu – brilliant article. It is obvious that Hindu institutions are being threatened by the government, systematically, one by one. Starting from Jayendra Sankaracharyar, Bangaru Adigalar and Nityananda in south (though jury is out on nityananda, i am only questioning the intention of the group that planned). Issues on sabarimala and new issues on sri sri ravishakar comes to mind. I share your anguish on where this will end and how long people can maintain peace. Only for so long people can ignore what is said in the media, after that they will start believing. I just hope that no one goes ‘postal’ with their frustration, which will give lot of fodder for the media focussed on ‘hindu terror’

  • 53. Anand Jain said:

    @Sid

    If Brahmins controlled everything then who brought this reservation policy into reality? If Brahmins are so full of hatred of supposedly lower caste, who exactly allowed Ambedkar to write the constitution?

    Please look at History for your answers.
    (i) Ambedkar did not write constitution alone. He possessed the knowledge and acumen to do the task. However, the constitutional committee had its own lobbies / representations and that is why we have a constitution today that leaves every question in a limbo.
    (ii) If it were not for Mahatmajee, the brahmin hatred will still be the all pervading power in India. Tell me why it still makes a news when an outcaste enters a temple or performs puja ?

    and you will find that the majority of all leading posts are held by Brahmins – Can we start with some examples, please? And also how does the system in India designed in such a way?

    I am supposing that you do stay in India. If you do, we do not need to quote examples. Do help yourself with a list of top 100 bureaucrats in India – count the no of Scheduled Castes vs Brahmins vs Kayastha. You will find that 70%+ will be formed by the latter two with less than 5% of Muslims there.
    On the question of design, please try working for government, getting a contract, getting a job in government, starting an NGO with true objectives, try doing anything and if you do not face the Pandey / Mishra roadbumps. Please come back and let us know of that heaven on the Bharatbhoomi. The lobbying is active not only in Public sector but to a large extent in private sector as well.

    Vaish/Jains/Vanias kept a hold on the economy … Indian economy – Ooopsss, who or what stopped others to start business? How did they control the economy? The fact that Indian economy did not see a lot of wealth generating activity because Nehruvite solialism steadily discouraged any private effort to generate wealth.

    Why do our friends have to blame a Nehru or a Gandhi for every ill in India? The fact is that Entrepreneurship was never a forte of Indian society. It had to be instilled which was not done either by the society or by the educationist. The cleanest of the businesses in India are held by Parsis (Tatas / Godrej). It is the society’s responsibility to teach its kids the path to success. Lobbying / Bribery v/s Clean Entrepreneurship, you know who chose what.

    what with Jains (1% of population) paying more than 20% of income tax (don’t count the black money)…by default or by design ?? – Where is your supporting statistics?
    Would love to research that and get back to you.

    Why is hiring a muslim still considered the last choice in a company? – Who exactly did not hire Muslims? Can you show some examples please? I have done recruitment in India and I am not aware of any such declared policies. Are you trying to sell a conspiracy theory here?
    Do you think it is written anywhere that a Dalit will not perform Puja as a charter. Yet you stop them everyday. These are things that one experiences in Society. These are things we do when you sit for hiring candidates and look for references. The conspiracy is eons old dear Sid. If you think it otherwise, tell me why a community which is the largest minority still struggles to find a foothold in a country where it belongs.

    Why after 50 years of independence our so called tolerant society has not been able to accommodate Muslims, Scheduled Castes and other lowly beings into the mainstream ? – Spare us the hyperbole. If Dalits are not in the mainstream, Mayawati could not have become the CM, she got more than Dalit votes in UP in last election, did she not?

    Mayawati is a chief minister not because she has been invite by the high castes to don the mantle. It is sheer numbers in UP that have let her rule, and don’t forget she conspired to invite a Brahmin to get them into fold, changed the very basics of her party in order to reach there. She is there because of her political ways not because we gave her a red carpet. When did the last time BJP elected a Dalit chief minister / prime minister / BJP president. I think never.

    Why does the BJP still a Bania-Brahmin party after all its efforts to engage Muslims / Dalits in the party ? – I have no sympathy for BJP now, but ever heard about Bangaru Lakshman?
    And do we know where he went ?? :) Did he last long… and if you happen to answer this with the word Corruption, please remember the umpteen cases against others, who are still at the helm.

    Speak about Hindu Terror… a Yagna every month. – I see. So any ant-social element who is Hindu is a Hindu terrorist, is it? I am inclined to know if such elements sang Bhajan while beating people or extorted money in the name of their God or not. There are people of other faith who does comparable stuff and there is still deaf silence on associating them with their religion.

    What counts as part of terror?? Murders, Shootouts or probably you think that it is a little lesser evil. Madhya Pradesh sees more Rapes than Kashmir every year, the Murder rates are coming close to UP while Kashmir languishes far behind on that (including terror executions). Now talk about faith. Do you think that police spares someone with a name Khan while booking someone who is Pandey. Is it written anywhere, any proofs that you have.

    Talk about Afzal Guru who probably killed a few innocent policemen, and we have a lot of hue and cry and our inability to execute the Terror mongers. Some cases pending in Madhya Pradesh have Kamal Patel, Anoop Mishra and a no of ministers under the shadow for killing innocent people. The criminals are still out in the open and no one cares to mention it.

    On that count, have you ever visited an Indian village. Do you know the terror that pervades because of the bhagwa politics. Pl go down to rural india and you will know what terrorism means.

    The fact remains that we are still the high-browed / upper caste society (a mojority of us) who balk at the thoughts eating with a muslim or a shudra… – You may like to take a look at the definition of the word “fact”, branding any sentence as fact requires a crucial condition to be satisfied: there needs to be supporting evidence.
    My dear Friend, I should excuse you for your ignorance. You want fact, please come with me and I will take you to those hundreds around me who will give you evidence. Mindset does not need evidence, it is to be experienced.

    who prefer to leave the risk of guarding the frontiers to the army and eat away our own national assets with pride. We are most corrupt of the states and are happy about it. – And your point is? Everybody should be guarding the borders, not just army? When Army gets repeatedly maligned by the “secular” clan in the media, I did not hear any voice of protest from Hindu bashers like you. Frustrated and agitated, huh?

    To put the record straight, I am not a Hindu Basher and I am not Secular by your definitions. I would not want to get personal on this score but would be happy to know if you have read the History of India, if you have visited any of the villages in UP / Bihar, if you have met an adivasi trying to eke out a days living.

    I am simply against the conspiracy that India is today. Surrounded by pseudo Secularits, pseudo Nationalists and pseudo Educationists. Friends, instead of wasting time on Bashing congress or muslims for every ill in India and its society, please find ways to include them in the mainstream. Handover a day’s bread and clothing and self respect and you will not have a terrorist.

    Friends, it is all about money and an equal share in the growth, that keeps everyone happy… – So what should be done?
    Correct education to all, not only muslims and tribals, but to brahmins and jains, to teach them the dignity of labour, to teach them the beauty of entrepreneurship.It is the easiest way to relieve a society that has long drenched itself into narrow alleys of Sectarianism and Casteism. It will take a generation to relieve ourselves and come out in the open.

    else let us get ready for more Kashmirs, sponsored by our own state…more naxals…more farmer suicides. – Arundhati Roy theory of governance. Do you know why farmer suicides happen? Do you know when and how the terrorism in Kashmir started? If the agitated farmers and tribals are all that Naxals are made of, then can you imagine a situation where an uneducated, untrained and frustrated tribal youth takes a rocket launcher, fires towards a CRPF vehicle and brings it down? Is it just that easy without foreign funding, training and edcucation?

    Why do they have to go to a foreign Funding agency. Why don’t they look at their own brothers. Identity and Voice is the real problem. Listen to them brothers. Work with them. You have long used them to fill your coffers. It is time to give it back. If you don’t hear them out, you will lose them.

    Education to all, not bombs, should be the Hindu answer, – Answer to what? Who in the Hindu community offering bombs anyway? And who denied rights to education?
    That is where this discussion started, on justification of a few elements who think that the Bombs is the right way.

    If you want to create a happy India, it will not be a Hindu or a Muslim India, it will be an economically strong India. – Economic strength alone achieves nothing, the society must be made stronger.

    Let us pray we reach there quickly.

  • 54. John Sudhaker said:

    Muslims in 1947 demanded to divide thier nation Hindusthan and wanted a separate land for themselves called Pakistan. It was given to them happily on a plate. Then what right muslims have to stay or live here ? Who played this hidden enmosity and treachery with us to keep muslims herein present India ? Who blocked them from going to thier beloved dar-ul-islam land of Pakistan? Now look what a dirt of jihad,LeT,JuD,SIMI,JKLF,Islamism and Terrorism,they have spread in India. All great persons like Dr. Ambedkar of that time wanted to send all muslims to Pakistan and bring Hindus from there to present India. Then who played the treachery to keep them here and give them the benefit of democracy,secularism, freedom of speach and expression, while thier own ideology Islam/Quran/Mohd do not allow these and call it a Kuffar. Thier very faith orders them to always side with muslim countries(dar-ul-islam) even going against thier own nation.
    Tragedy is this that no newspaper,no print media, no video media, no history writers,and no political party,no intelectual seminars speak,discuss,debate or advertise this great tregedy of the century.

  • 55. Malavika said:

    Sid, you should not take Anand Jains bait. He is trying to distract the discussion about media sculduggery with the usual trojan horses like Caste, discrimination and etc. These should be discussed in a different thread not this.

  • 56. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    I think you’ve lost all sense of reason.

    Read Arvind’s comment if you please, which says “…however, says that for implicating hindu terrorists no evidence is required.”

    Implicating Hindu terrorists, not implicating hindus of terrorism!

    This means that we started with an acceptance of Hindu terrorists. And implicating hindu terrorists implies their implication in the COURT OF LAW – something that we were discussing just before Arvind’s comment.

    Now consider this:

    Col Purohit wanted to create a ‘Hindu nation’.

    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/ltcol-purohit-wanted-to-create-hindu-nation_100144954.html

    And now he’s being court marshalled by the army and stripped off his uniform for his involvement in the case.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/5699180.cms

    So when I said that “these people committed these acts of terrorism in the name of Hinduism”, I was merely stating the obvious.

    Now whether he could be implicated in the court of law or not depends on the quality of evidence produced that is acceptable to the court. And although his participation in the crime is fairly obvious, the prosecution may not be able produce satisfactory evidence and if they can’t, he can not be implicated.

    Because of the imperfect legal system in India, Purohit won’t be the first criminal to walk out free nor will he be the last.

    I will only quote this one case here. There are many more such cases of Hindu terrorism (even some useless terrorists who blew themselves up whilst making bombs!) as the Nanded bomb blast, the Goa bomb blasts, The Ajmer and Hyderabad blasts and so on.

  • 57. Malavika said:

    Sat said:

    “Only for so long people can ignore what is said in the media, after that they will start believing”

    Actually trust in media is going down. A good omen indeed.

  • 58. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    “My impression of RSS cadre is that of a Nazi waiting for its Hitler!… Your impression is not based on evidence nor is mine. Fair enough.”

    Again, I was talking to Sid but I take it that you love to butt in!

    But anyway, my analysis of the RSS is based on evidence – both primary and secondary.

    I have given legitimate links from the “official” RSS website on this post http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/06/05/rss-debate/ to prove that RSS is a Islamophobic, xenophobic, homophobic, totalitarian and fascist organization with sinister motives.

    This thread is not about RSS so I would engage with you on the above mentioned thread (but I must say I don’t see a point!)

    As for your impression of me, well let’s just say, you will grow up some day!

  • 59. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @John

    Sorry you think that way.

    @Sid, Malavika – this is exactly the RSS line of argument that I’ve heard when I used to go to the shakha!

    @John

    Many muslims didn’t want a separate Pakistan and many didn’t go there even after its creation. Some even moved from Pakistan to India because they wanted to live in a secular, non-partisan country.

    If you are asking them to leave the country because of their religious beliefs, you are insulting their spirit and the many sacrifices they’ve made, and continue to make, to be part of a multi-cultural India.

    This bigoted approaches to nationalism won’t get you anywhere and unfortunately put a spanner in the works for a nation that wants to move on.

  • 60. Malavika said:

    56. Ashish Deodhar said:
    @Malavika

    I think you’ve lost all sense of reason.

    You lost the argument so, you are resorting to adhomeniu attacks.

  • 61. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sid, Malavika – this is exactly the RSS line of argument that I’ve heard when I used to go to the shakha!

    This is exactly the line of argument of losers and Pol Pot wadis.

  • 62. Prashanth K.P. said:

    HINDUS, no doubt are becoming victims of bad politics and targets of other iconoclastic religions. Hindus themselves fail to see this broader ploy of eradicating Hinduism from India. The Christian Doctrine does firmly spells out existence of only CHRISTIANS. Islamic doctrine vehemently spells out existence of only MUSLIMS. Marxians spells out a decayed doctrine of pre-historic principles of Statehood above anything else. Maoist doctrine spells anything but doom. Article 370 spells everything damning the Hindus! Where will the HINDUS go as such. As you rightly put it “A HINDU in India rightly feels besieged”. Hence, high time the Hindus awake from their slumber and face reality of existence or reality of ethnic cleansing….the choice is left with us Hindus.

    But I reckon every HINDU should feel thus and begin rethinking about their social and cultural fabric and apply themselves to its adherence before it gets irrecoverable .

  • 63. Malavika said:

    58. Ashish Deodhar said:

    “Because of the imperfect legal system in India, Purohit won’t be the first criminal to walk out free nor will he be the last.”

    You agree that inspite of all the hullabalo there is no evidence that can be presented in court of law. So, your Congress Party that according to you “is aggressively pursuing the likes of Hafeez Saeed in Pakistan” has not able to gather evidence that can be presented in court.

    “I will only quote this one case here. There are many more such cases of Hindu terrorism (even some useless terrorists who blew themselves up whilst making bombs!) as the Nanded bomb blast, the Goa bomb blasts, The Ajmer and Hyderabad blasts and so on.”

    Truly, a Goebbels propaganda. As a true fascist you arrogated yourself to be the judge and jury and pronounced verdict from a press report. This is not how democracies work.

  • 64. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Malavika

    Read. Think and then comment please. Don’t waste my time with such silly arguments.

    There is a difference between evidence and evidence acceptable in the court of law. So if a court decides that it doesn’t have enough evidence doesn’t necessarily mean that there is no evidence. Unfortunately, that’s our legal system and that’s why I said that he may never be implicated in the court for his crimes.

    The court took over an year to decide on an open and shut case of Ajmal Kasab. He was on live TV killing people and the court still wanted to hear eye-witness accounts and narco-tests and so on. There are countless examples of convicts going scott-free because the courts didn’t accept the evidence presented. If your logic is that a flawed judicial system means that Purohit is innocent, then you are digging yourself a big grave.

    You seem to work with a highly misplaced assumption that press reports are fictional stories. And please do tell us how democracies work then? By killing people on the streets of Gujarat? By beating up women in the bars of Mangalore? By razing places of worship? Oh no hang on, democracies work by throwing extremists out of power, term after term after term!

    Yes I’ve voted for Congress all along not because they are best for the nation but because they are lesser of the two evils. I am always happy for Manmohan Singh to lead the country than a Narendra Modi.

    Your calling me fascist just goes on to show that you don’t understand the meaning of fascism. Wikipedia would be a good start.

  • 65. Sandeep said:

    @Anand Jain

    “If you want to create a happy India, it will not be a Hindu or a Muslim India, it will be an economically strong India.”

    Can you please tell us why We (the majority of this country) should abandon our Hindu dharma in order to make an economically strong India?

  • 66. Bhanu said:

    This is for Anand Jain who barged in with his caste theories.

    1.Data for the years 1800 and 1830 shows that majority enrolled in schools were from OBC and SC categories from the Madras, Bengal and Punjab presidencies. This data has been collected by Dharampal who is a renowned Gandhian.

    2. Caste has played an important role in consolidation of business and entrepreneurship particularly in the last 50 yrs or so. World Bank, acoording to its report World Development Report, 2002, pp 175, suggests that the remarkable growth of Tirupur is due to the coordinated efforts of the Gounders who are not even matriculates.

    3. The Economic Census of India, 2005, done by the Central Statistical Orgn which covers 41.83 million enterprises finds that more than 50 % of the businesses are owned by SC/ST/OBC categories.

    4. Renowned sociologist Dipankar Gupta observes ” In fact it is more realistic to say that there are as many hierarchies as there are castes in India.To believe that there is a single caste order to which every caste from Brahman to untouchable acquiese ideologically is a gross misreading of facts on the ground.” (Dipankar Gupta in Interogating Caste , Penguin Books 2000).

    5. MN Srinivas, sociologist points out ‘An important feature of social mobility in modern India is the manner the successful members of the backward castes work consistently for improving the social and economic conditions of their caste fellows. This is due to the sense of identification with one’s own caste and also a realisation that caste mobility is essential for individual or familial mobility.’ (Collected Essays, OUP 2005)

  • 67. Malavika said:

    64. Ashish Deodhar said:

    “Read. Think and then comment please. Don’t waste my time with such silly arguments.”

    It is you who is going around in circles and wasting your time. You are not convincing anyone here either. Get real.

    In a democracy the only evidence that counts is the evidence presented in court of law to determine an induividual’s guilt or innocence. Media leaks by Congres Bureau of Investigation do not count.

    Rest of your rant is incoherant, irrelavent and plain gibberish.

  • 68. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @ Malavika

    “In a democracy the only evidence that counts is the evidence presented in court of law”

    No. As a matter of fact, what counts in a democracy is the strength of an argument. If you are persuasive enough, you will win the popular public opinion.

    “You are not convincing anyone here either.”

    This is a highly opinionated blog and that’s reflected in its followers. Of course I am not convincing anyone here and can’t because for people who still question the existence of muslims in India, an argument for tolerance and secularism is a big leap.

    I am merely bringing a secular voice to this debate with no intention to convince anyone. Convincing anyone on this blog doesn’t matter anyway. The secular argument has been persuasively made to the country by people far better than myself and that’s where it all counts.

  • 69. Muthu said:

    You have all ignored my earlier post. Shantanu, please go thru this book.

    Its huge 452 pages.

    Brannon Parkers Orissa under crossfire. Very well written document in pdf. See on to your right, it is for download free or better save as pdf file and then view. Quite a detailed account. Deep insights. Not the usual Indian media stuff.

    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/orissa-in-the-crossfire-kandhamal-burning/6046401

  • 70. sat said:

    @Asish – you are saying “As a matter of fact, what counts in a democracy is the strength of an argument. If you are persuasive enough, you will win the popular public opinion”.

    Yes, that is why political parties indulge in slander of hindu gurus. Jayalalitha famously declared ‘we have clinching evidence against sankaracharya’… 5,000 pages and 5 years later, nothing was proved. But, she succeeded in convicting sankaracharya in the opinion of the public. This the power you are talking about and which is being misused. Afzal Guru was convicted… but public opinion is being changed to gain sympathy for him… So, you see.. Nothing works in India, except for the slander thrown by the ones that can shout loudest.

  • 71. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @sat

    I am not going to stand up for each politician and argue for or against each and every case.

    I will stick to the larger debate between secularism and extremism (not the secularism that’s currently understood in India and practiced by the political parties!)

    And yes the power of persuasion could be misused as it has been by the Sangh as well as the pseudo-secular parties such as the Samajwadis. Many even in the present Congress are pseudo-seculars – Hindu/Muslim/Christian sympathizers and they too are using the power of argument for malignant purposes.

    That doesn’t mean that it is there to be abused. If your intentions are pure, you could use it to do great things – Obama has very recently shown us how.

    I said this multiple times on this forum and I say it again – existence of corrupt pseudo-seculars doesn’t render secularism evil or inconsequential and that definitely is not a justification for extremism. Correct understanding of secularism is important.

    So if you have a good persuasion power, please don’t waste it on defending extremism. We face more pressing problems in India than defending one religion or other and those problems affect us all equally. Take the administration to task for the conditions of our roads for instance. 1.4 million people die each year in road accidents in India – the largest number of road deaths in the world. This is far more serious than defending religious leaders, preventing conversions or enforcing a certain ‘way of life’ on the country.

  • 72. sat said:

    @Asish – you said ” said this multiple times on this forum and I say it again – existence of corrupt pseudo-seculars doesn’t render secularism evil or inconsequential and that definitely is not a justification for extremism. Correct understanding of secularism is important.”

    This is what exactly we are saying too. Our problem is with pseudo-seculars that have the power of money to be heard and seen the most. This post is entirely about such people. Fix them and make them fair, everything will be fine. We too are saying ‘correct understanding of secularism is important’.. Not the brand of secularism that targets one religion, becuase voice of that religion is not heard. The brand of secularism that is afraid to speak about few religions because they would respond with violence is not secularism… That is intellectual dishonesty and cowardice.

  • 73. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @sat

    1) We too are saying ‘correct understanding of secularism is important’

    Unfortunately, your opinion is not shared by many on this blog. I certainly haven’t seen any evidence of that in my month-long association with this blog. You only have to scroll up a bit to find out people fervently defending Hindu extremism – some even going to the length of questioning the existence of muslims in India!

    – I believe this is the first time I am talking to you and I am glad that you share my opinion.

    2) The brand of secularism that is afraid to speak about few religions because they would respond with violence is not secularism… That is intellectual dishonesty and cowardice.

    – I agree with you on this and if you read a few of my posts on this blog, you’ll notice that I have said it time and again that Islam is the most dangerous religion and needs to be kept in check – this doesn’t mean aggression against muslims; it simply means limiting the influence Islam could have on the society e.g. banning of the madrassas and fatwas, keeping a close eye on the deobandis etc.

    That could be done through an effective use of the law & order machinery, not be demonizing the law & order machinery!

  • 74. Indian said:

    @Sandeep

    Well said!

  • 75. Gyan said:

    @Ashish
    Your posts are well thought out and detailed in their arguments. I appreciate that.
    However, when you say that this blog is highly opinionated, I take it that you are pointing towards the highly emotive nature of the dialogue taking place here.
    According to me, your own posts are highly opinionated, though written in a non-emotive way.
    In your eagerness to defend the Congress you are ignoring the following acts of the same-
    1) The eagerness to come out with ‘Hindu terrorist brand’ to garner Muslim support,
    2) The intention to malign the majority population as harbingers of terrorism, when India is the biggest sufferer of Islamic terrorism,
    3) There is no clinching evidence to convict so called Hindu terrorists, and you explain it away with some unconvincing argument about Indian Legal procedures.
    4) In trying to defend the clueless and weak approach of Congress in handling terrorism, you are trying to defend the indefensible – the involvement of Pakistani establishment in such acts by equating their courts with India. Did you hear the name of Haidley? His exposures regarding Ishrat? Regarding involvement of Hafiz Saeed and ISI? You are conveniently forgetting the present regime’s efforts to politicize the Ishrat case too.
    5) Your argument for saving Afzal Guru from gallows is very flimsy and highly speculative, and is only the official line peddled by the government.
    I will only say that if all this hullabaloo about Hindu terrorism is false, then it is very serious. If it is indeed true, then it is ten times serious!

  • 76. Malavika said:

    Gyan said:

    “According to me, your own posts are highly opinionated, though written in a non-emotive way.”

    All his posts are highly opinionated and NOT based on facts. He ignores facts and dismisses evidence without any rationale. Rest of your post documents this intellectual dishonesty of ignoring facts when they are inconvenient.

  • 77. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Gyan

    Thank you for your words of appreciation. Well received at my end.

    1) As I said in my previous comment, I am not here, and I am not going to, defend any political party/politician. Yes I’ve voted for Congress just like the many other millions but that’s out of lack of choice, not out of wholehearted support. So I am not eager at all to defend Congress. In fact, I would ditch Congress if I am presented with a better alternative and that’s why I’ve joined the FTI.

    You may want to deny ‘Hindu terrorism’ but it’s been around for a while now. Granted they are not as lethal as the Islamic terrorists but we can’t wait till they get to that point. As it is, the Islamists are making matters worse and we can’t let another extremism take shape whilst we deal with the first.

    2) I don’t know where the ‘malign the majority of population’ comes from. My parents are Hindus and I don’t call them terrorists! There are a few nutters who are hell-bent on causing trouble in the name of Hinduism and they need to be dealt with severely.

    3) To me, those arguments were fairly convincing. If they were not convincing enough for you, there’s very little I could do about it.

    4) I don’t know why Pakistani courts can’t be equated with Indian courts. They have an independent judiciary just like ours. As a matter of fact, whilst we take our judicial system for granted, they had to fight for it and I assume that as a result, they would value it a lot! But I didn’t comment on the Pakistani judicial system to defend Congress (if they are connected by any logic at all!) and I certainly don’t rule out Pakistani involvement – if I had to do so, I would’ve claimed that Hafeez Saeed is innocent, which I very categorically didn’t!

    5) The argument for not executing Afzal Guru isn’t mine. It’s the government’s argument and I said in my post above that although I see their point, I don’t necessarily agree with them!

    I think the problem of Hindu terrorism is very real, albeit a little weak. They are not as resourceful as the Islamic extremists and perhaps not as clinical in their approach. That doesn’t mean they can’t be all that in the years to come and in my opinion, we shouldn’t wait for that day to come.

  • 78. Malavika said:

    Ashish Deodhar said:

    MP: “In a democracy the only evidence that counts is the evidence presented in court of law”

    Ashish : No. As a matter of fact, what counts in a democracy is the strength of an argument. If you are persuasive enough, you will win the popular public opinion.

    You are obfuscating the issue. Guilt or innocence is determined by arguments and evidence presented in the court of law. Public opinion is entirely different and we are not discussing it now. No democracy conducts trial by media,you so eagerly seem to lap up. It is fascist states that conducts trial by media.

  • 79. Anand Jain said:

    Friends, I think this needs a consolidation.

    Would revert in the night.

    @Malvika – Pl get your statistics right on the media as the majority is owned by Indians. Any talk of planting news stories to malign Hindus only is a misnomer. The question here is if Indian Majority is Hindu, who wants to read bad words about themselves. It looks like you are talking about American Media trying to create a bad picture of Indians / Hindus / Brahmins etc etc… but it is a difficult argument to buy.

    @Bhanu – Sorry for barging in…I will revert in detail on all of the above.

    Let us zero in on the argument we are into. If this is all about congress bashing and the usual rhetorics of RSS, then I would prefer to retire because it is unending. If there is a real subject we are bringing up for discussion. Malvika, please put it in one line.

    @Ashish – let us restart from there.

  • 80. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Dear All: Thanks for a spririted discussion.. I am having serious connectivity problems since yesterday..may not be able to respond to the comments before the weekend…

    Do continue the discussion..pl keep it civil and no personal abuse please.

    Thanks..hope to be back online soon.

  • 81. Sandeep said:

    @Anand Jain

    “If you want to create a happy India, it will not be a Hindu or a Muslim India, it will be an economically strong India.”

    Can you please tell us why We (the majority of this country) should abandon our Hindu dharma in order to make an economically strong India?

  • 82. Sandeep said:

    “The question here is if Indian Majority is Hindu, who wants to read bad words about themselves”

    Answer : Indian Anglophiles

  • 83. Sid said:

    Please look at History for your answers. – I know history well enough. In 1943, Ambedkar published a book criticizing Gandhi and alleging that he, as a politician, is harmful to “Harijan” interests. Four years later, this is the same man who requested a Gandhian politician to request Gandhi (a Modh baniya if you are so interested in caste) to find a role for him in the new government. Gandhi passed the request to Nehru (a Kashmiri Pandit, if you want to know) and Nehru put him in the team responsible for the constitution. It does not mean that he was the only competent man to do so, but it certainly boosted their image as so-called Dalit friendly.

    the constitutional committee had its own lobbies / representations – That is how democracy is run, by discussing and taking a consensus.

    Tell me why it still makes a news when an outcaste enters a temple or performs puja ? – Tell me, where did it make news last time? There exists thousands of temples across India which has so-called lower class priests.

    Do help yourself with a list of top 100 bureaucrats in India – count the no of Scheduled Castes vs Brahmins vs Kayastha. You will find that 70%+ will be formed by the latter two with less than 5% of Muslims there. – Show me the list. I do not know any such list published by GOI or any other private party and I do not know how to pick up the caste on the basis of their names. Show some examples and start talking. Regarding 5% muslims, they are a minority group, it is no surprise that their representation would be lesser than the majority community. IAS exams do not attach different marks based on castes or religion. Besides, I am not entirely sure Madrassas prepare their students well for exams like IAS entry exams.

    On the question of design, please try working for government, getting a contract, getting a job in government,... – As a contractor, I worked on public sectors of three different governments: India, US and Canada. It is same everywhere, a group of people are favored over another. Somewhere it is more, somewhere it is less, somewhere it is skin color or ethnicity or language or just the power of money. Government is all about money, bigger the government, bigger the money. Bigger the money, more desperate are people for the share of the loot. It is just not about Mishra or Pandey. Tomorrow, if there is a Sharma, Basu, Roy, Dutt or Ramaswami, it would not be very different. If you are unhappy, start working towards the initiatives that would keep the government transperent and shrink the government so that size of the loot goes smaller. No point in just screaming about it.

    The lobbying is active not only in Public sector but to a large extent in private sector as well. – Yes, there is. And there will be. If one has to work with the world, one has to accept and acknowledge that world is very imperfect and corrupt.

    Why do our friends have to blame a Nehru or a Gandhi for every ill in India? The fact is that Entrepreneurship was never a forte of Indian society. – Really? Who built the license raj, common Indian? How would you explain that outside India, everywhere Indians went, they created new business be it in Europe, Africa, Latin America or North America? Looks like you consider entrepreneurship as a gene factor. Now wonder, you can come up with such convoluted ideas.

    The cleanest of the businesses in India are held by Parsis (Tatas / Godrej). – What do you mean by that? The name Tata came up again and again in the recent most telecom scam.

    Clean Entrepreneurship, you know who chose what. – Show me a clean entrepreneur.

    Would love to research that and get back to you. – I see. So you have a conclusion first and the research second. As far as I know it is the other way round.

    Do you think it is written anywhere that a Dalit will not perform Puja as a charter. Yet you stop them everyday. These are things that one experiences in Society. These are things we do when you sit for hiring candidates and look for references. The conspiracy is eons old dear Sid. – I already suspected that you are trying to sell a conspiracy theory. Thanks for the confirmation.

    If you think it otherwise, tell me why a community which is the largest minority still struggles to find a foothold in a country where it belongs. – Who is stopping them? Show me an example. Show me how many deserving candidate are sitting idle in Minority community. This is a representative government, not a representative bureaucracy. Just because someone is part of some community does not mean that he deserves a job or a living. Living has to be earned, not granted.

    She is there because of her political ways not because we gave her a red carpet. – Nobody is supposed to get a red carpet just because he/she belongs to so and so people.

    nd do we know where he went ?? :) Did he last long… and if you happen to answer this with the word Corruption, please remember the umpteen cases against others, who are still at the helm. – He was caught in the video. Do you mean that a supposed “Dalit” is to get more protection than an average con politician?

    Madhya Pradesh sees more Rapes than Kashmir every year, the Murder rates are coming close to UP – Is that a conclusion for which research is pending?

    while Kashmir languishes far behind on that (including terror executions). Now talk about faith. Do you think that police spares someone with a name Khan while booking someone who is Pandey. – What evidence do you have about that? Spare me the rhetoric. Oh, I forgot, research is pending.

    Talk about Afzal Guru who probably killed a few innocent policemen, ... The criminals are still out in the open and no oncares to mention it. – I see. A very interesting observation. So because a criminal goes free, others should go free too. So you have irrefutable proof, why do not you file a public interest litigation case against those you have mentioned? Apparently, you can take names so you do not fear any retribution. I would say that you are the right guy for the job.

    On that count, have you ever visited an Indian village. – I come from a small village in south West Bengal. The only terror I know there is CPI(M) sponsored terror and now Maoist-sponsored terror. I am not aware of what is called Bhagwa teror. May be you can care to explain and also explain how many lives they have claimed. Please, no pending research.

    Mindset does not need evidence, it is to be experienced. – I see, it can all be seen in the eye of the mind.

    if you have visited any of the villages in UP / Bihar, if you have met an adivasi trying to eke out a days living. – I also know honest farmers or farm-hands who are not adivasis struggling to make a days living. As I said, everybody needs to earn a living, be it adivasi or not.

    Why do they have to go to a foreign Funding agency. Why don’t they look at their own brothers. – I see. So you would help anyone trying to kill a few CRPF men to make a point, do not you? After all, you are a brother and you would like to call everyone else brother.

    Identity and Voice is the real problem. – Aahhaa. Got it. But this begs a question. I thought you asked for a India that is free of Hindu and Muslim identities. But then you want identity and voice too.

    on justification of a few elements who think that the Bombs is the right way. – Nobody justified the bombs. Shantanu’s post talked about the trial by media. I am not surprised though. After all, everywhere there is a conspiracy is not it?

    I am simply against the conspiracy that India is today. – Did you count how many times the word “conspiracy” appear here? You see conspiracy everywhere, do not you? And as everyone knows, those who conspire do not leave any proof behind. So good people like you has the responsibility to find out those theories. Those who seek proof are either lesser in intelligence and experience or are the agents of conspirators. IS not it?

    For someone who are part of a number of forums on different topics in the net, I have seen a lot of conspiracy theories and thoroughly enjoyed them. You can spill rest of your conspiracy trash here, I am done.

  • 84. Sid said:

    @Ashish (#58),

    I have given legitimate links from the “official” RSS website on this post http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/06/05/rss-debate/ to prove that RSS is a Islamophobic, xenophobic, homophobic, totalitarian and fascist organization with sinister motives.

    This thread is not about RSS so I would engage with you on the above mentioned thread (but I must say I don’t see a point!)

    I have followed the thread and as far as I can see it contains all your opinions and rhetoric about how you believe RSS is so. Would you mind putting a new post there by comparing the nazi party and RSS cadre point-wise (their behavior, ideology and history) so that lesser human beings like us who has no understanding of “correct” version of secularism can understand the similarities?

  • 85. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sid

    I have explained my version of “correct” secularism on this forum but if you still can’t understand it, I am not here to spoon-feed you. There are a few sensible people who have grasped the concept. I feel sorry for you if you can’t.

    I have requested you to limit your sarcasm but I guess you didn’t get that point either! Do you get anything at all?

  • 86. Sid said:

    @Ashish,
    I have explained my version of “correct” secularism – Finally you reached there !!! Your version of “correct” secularism. That is what I thought I would hear. So secularism needs to be interpreted, as per convenience, is not it?

    There are a few sensible people who have grasped the concept. I feel sorry for you if you can’t. – I knew, that is bloody quantum mechanics. Only few people get it. Poor me, I am not one of them. I guess I am blessed to talk to you sir!!

    I have requested you to limit your sarcasm but I guess you didn’t get that point either!

    It was a request, not a command, or was it, your excellency? Your excellency, do I need to state the fact that I have complete control over what I choose to write or how I choose to write !!! It is also a pleasure for me to acknowledge the fact that your excellency also has the complete right of not reading anything that he does not like.

    Do you get anything at all? – What we clearly get is your patronizing arrogance (I already requested you to .... but I guess...) and harping the same sentences again and again without resorting to any point wise refutation. It is not in my tradition to call people bigots, hypocrite when I do not agree to them. It is also not my characteristic to tell other people to grow up when they have developed an opinion that is beyond my comprehension. All I can say is that, sir, you are great. Whatever you said is correct because you said so.

  • 87. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sid

    Only a few people get it. Poor me, I am not one of them.

    Very good you realized that. Now you better stick to what you get and not meddle in adult conversations.

    I guess I am blessed to talk to you sir!!

    I am sorry but I can’t reciprocate that sentiment.

    Whatever you said is correct because you said so.

    Good we reached to that conclusion before I blew my head off. Now get back to your school homework.

  • 88. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @everyone

    Sorry for this outburst. I responded in a fit of anger to Sid but I realize I didn’t really have to stoop down to his level.

    It wasn’t in good taste and I feel gutted and ashamed of myself.

    Sorry!

  • 89. Sid said:

    @Ashish,

    responded in a fit of anger to Sid but I realize I didn’t really have to stoop down to his level. – You do not need to acknowledge this, every one knows about this. This is not the first time after all. Shows a lot about you.

  • 90. ashwani said:

    jain:-Madhya Pradesh sees more Rapes than Kashmir every year, the Murder rates are coming close to UP

    sid– Is that a conclusion for which research is pending?

    thnx sid,for very neatly summing up the line of arguements of the DEO-JA(I)N, pontificating here for our “benefit”.

  • 91. Ashish Deodhar said:

    Bearing in mind all the quotes I’ve provided above are from the Sangh websites and they won’t disclose their true colours so publicly. But if they could says all these things so openly, imagine what they actually think behind the closed doors!

  • 92. Indian said:

    @ Anand Jain

    ——–We have seen the futility of successive “Hindutva” led governments in States and Center and they have surpassed all records of corruption, so any talk of a Hindutva based political solution is fruitless—–.

    What a bias talk! For you it must be termed as ‘Hindutva’, not for everyone. BJP., in Gujarat is doing far better than congress in short period of time which Congress could not do it for all these years. Show me how it has surpassed the corruption record? Did you threw it from your pocket? Even Muslims prayed for Modi govt., in Gujarat for next term. Learn to count the fruits!

    ——-Brahmins long kept scores of people as outcastes to maintain there supremacy and the same echoed in the bureaucracy until reservations brought some respite. Look at today’s bureaucratic setup and its constituents and you will find that the majority of all leading posts are held by Brahmins…by default or by design ??———

    As per you everything failed because of upper caste and Brahmins. What a story making! Blame Brahmins for hiding your failure; not a bad try! eh! Find some new excuse! Bureaucracy and its constituents is not someone father’s property, that one can hop in easily. Everyone has to prove his or her mettle to be there and many brilliant students regardless of caste and religion has done it. In spite of reservation, if one cannot do it than who to blame? Blame Brahmins; easy to get away with failure eh!

    ————Vaish/Jains/Vanias kept a hold on the economy and take a closer look and you will find that they still control a majority of Indian economy, what with Jains (1% of population) paying more than 20% of income tax (don’t count the black money)…by default or by design ??————-

    Learn to work hard! Don’t be jealous of anyone’s success. Many Vaish, Jains and Vanias are poor, and many Brahmins are doing low jobs. Who would they blame? They must blame you! Right! as you are the one who brings them everywhere for others failure.

    ——-Why is hiring a muslim still considered the last choice in a company? Why after 50 years of independence our so called tolerant society has not been able to accommodate Muslims, Scheduled Castes and other lowly beings into the mainstream ? Why does the BJP still a Bania-Brahmin party after all its efforts to engage Muslims / Dalits in the party ?———

    Are you the one who take care of every company? Muslims are very fond of foreign countries and love good money, as soon as they get good education will move out. They think it is paradise outside the country. They are the one who are largely discriminated outside the country compared to others. Now go and tell the world, why the world is failing to accommodate them.

    ——-The fact remains that we are still the high-browed / upper caste society (a mojority of us) who balk at the thoughts eating with a muslim or a shudra… who prefer to leave the risk of guarding the frontiers to the army and eat away our own national assets with pride. We are most corrupt of the states and are happy about it.————

    What age and time are you in? It is only you who is obsessed with the term Muslim and Sudra. Many uppercaste even don’t know what this term Sudra is and why not to eat with muslims. Army consist of all kind of people, in your attempt to malign Brahmins and uppercaste don’t forget to respect all martyrs who were at frontiers protecting the country no matter of their caste and religion.

  • 93. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Shantanu

    Just posted a very long post with lots of links. I guess it didn’t go through the system. Could you help please?

    Thanks!

  • 94. ashwani said:

    “Bearing in mind all the quotes I’ve provided above are from the Sangh websites and they won’t disclose their true colours so publicly. But if they could says all these things so openly, imagine what they actually think behind the closed doors!”

    look at this & try and make sense of it friends or simply enjoy.

  • 95. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Ashwini

    Sorry about that. I had posted something and followed up that post immediately after that. Now I see my second post but not the first one. Have asked Shantanu for help. Hope it gets up soon.

    *** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

    Comment now retrieved

  • 96. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Some very hurried comments…I’m finally back online after some very serious connectivity issues…I hope to find some time by Thursday to respond to as many comments as possible…

    Frankly, I am overwhelmed by the volume…clearly this is a highly emotive issue.

    I am also dealing with a big backlog of emails so there may be some delay in moderating comments.

    Two requests: Pl keep it civil and polite. I know most of you are keeping it that way and will continue to do so – Thank you for that.

    Second, please post links/comments on other matters on the appropriate threads (Sh Muthu: Your link on the book re Kandhamal should be posted here: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/03/15/the-other-side-of-kandhamal/ OR here http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/10/28/kandhamal-conversions-proselytization/ ). Comments/Points re. RSS unrelated to “Hindutva Terror” are more appropriately discussed here: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/06/05/rss-debate/
    This helps me maintain the integrity of the blog and make it more useful. It also helps keep information and links in one place for anyone who wishes to follow the flow of argument(s).

    Thank you for your support and understanding.

    By the way, the “Shantanu” at #9 is not me!

    ***
    Ashish: Your comment was caught in the spam queue. Now retrieved. Sorry.

  • 97. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Shantanu

    1) shish: Your comment was caught in the spam queue. Now retrieved. Sorry.

    No problem. Have posted that comment on this thread since it directly concerns the Sangh. I had posted these links earlier but I was asked to put them together in one comment and have done that so.

    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/06/05/rss-debate/comment-page-3/#comment-83098

    2) Pl keep it civil and polite. I know most of you are keeping it that way and will continue to do so – Thank you for that.

    Sorry again for my momentary loss of balance. I can’t apologise enough.

  • 98. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Shantanu

    Sorry again. I read comment *not* retrieved instead of comment *now* retrieved. Long day!

    You may want to remove my comment from the other thread then.

    Thanks
    AD

  • 99. Kaffir said:

    =>
    @Sid, Malavika – this is exactly the RSS line of argument that I’ve heard when I used to go to the shakha!

    =>

    Which could mean two things.
    1. Sid and Malvika have been indoctrinated by RSS thinking.
    2. The line of argument is much more common in India and not limited to just RSS – others (non-RSS) can see and make the same argument.

    Which do you think is more likely?

    =>
    I have explained my version of “correct” secularism on this forum but if you still can’t understand it, I am not here to spoon-feed you. There are a few sensible people who have grasped the concept. I feel sorry for you if you can’t.
    =>

    So, this kind of secularism exists only in theory and only in your mind? Since you have admitted that the kind of secularism in India – inserted during the Emergency into the Constitution without any debate, and propagated by the Congress Party (in the form of Shah Bano case) – is a failure. At least the BJP stands behind UCC, which is the correct form of secularism and would likely agree with your form, no?

  • 100. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Kaffir

    1) I was telling Sid and Malavika what RSS preaches and when that point came up, I made a mention of it. However, having debated with Malavika and Sid for a while now, if I had to, I would go with the first likelihood suggested by you.

    2) I think youself and Sid have lavishly misinterpreted my “my version of secularism” statement already. With “my version”, I only meant the secularism I am trying to argue for. And no, your assessment that it exists only in theory isn’t true. Although, as I said before, secularism is misunderstood and misused in India and pseudo-seculars have hijacked it for their own personal agendas.

    I support the demand for a UCC because in a liberal, secular state, every person should be treated equally and fairly and no one should have a special status. Offering someone a special status defies the secular objectives.

  • 101. Kaffir said:

    =>
    And no, your assessment that it exists only in theory isn’t true.
    =>

    Hmmm….so, on one hand, you admit that the way secularism has been practiced in India is a failure, but on the other hand, you say that it doesn’t exist only in theory. So, where is the proof of this secularism being practiced in India? Seems to me that you’re contradicting yourself, and when that contradiction is pointed out, you want to wiggle out of it without offering any proof of this kind of secularism in action.

  • 102. Kaffir said:

    BTW, this might be of interest to you, Ashish.

    [..]
    Let me now open the eyes of ‘NCERT’s progenies’ to show them how secular India’s ‘secular’ parties are. This article will not raise the issue of ‘pseudo-secularism’ or ‘Muslim-appeasement’ that is blurted out ad nauseam by the Sangh Parivar. Rather, it will expose that the Congress’s and the Left’s concern for Muslims is as fake as the BJP’s concern for Hindus. In fact, it’s worse. If the BJP is only anti-Muslim, the Congress and the communists are not only anti-Hindu but also anti-Muslim. Should the second group’s posturing alone make India’s Muslims feel protected under leftist or left-of-centre regimes?

    If you go through the official records of Muslims killed since 1947 — in riots or otherwise — you will see that hundreds of Indian Muslims have been eliminated from the national scene in a cold-blooded manner every year during the first 30 of the 50 years that the country has been ruled by the Congress. Any member of the Congress party (my late father was one of them) aged over 40 has heard in the party offices how those killings were planned, how they were made to look like ‘collateral damage’ or ‘police encounters with criminals’, if not ordinary accidents. A riot merely helped various Congress governments camouflage their intentions better and achieve bigger ‘targets’ in smaller time spans.

    “… what will you say about the secular Congress and its president Sonia Gandhi when she goes to Gujarat and then under the advice of her colleagues refuses to visit the house of Ehsan Jafri (the former Congress MP who was killed by rioters) to offer condolences to the victim’s family? I am not making the charge that the Congress president became communal. But she certainly succumbed to societal pressure.

    — Arif Mohammed Khan, formerly member of the Congress, then the BSP; currently member of the BJP

    Next to be dealt with are the left parties, by far the closest to the concept of secularism, more so for their atheistic rationalism (not rationality).

    It was the morning of 7 December 1992 in Park Circus, Kolkata. The previous night, some of our Muslim friends — this coinage is just for the convenience of nomenclature; there’s nothing communal about it — from college, living in the area, had got the news of Babri Masjid’s demolition and had feared a communal flare up. Scared for their lives, they sought our help. About 15 of us, college friends (all Hindus), went over their place to provide a human shield. Early morning as we were having tea at their balcony, a mob emerged from one of the lanes with sticks, swords and ‘petrol bombs’ (bottles half-filled with petrol, with a burning wick attached to the caps). Contrary to what we had feared — that a Hindu mob could encircle the Muslim locality and wreak havoc — it was a Muslim mob, hunting for Hindus in that Muslim-dominated pocket. They were locals; they could make out we did not belong to that neighbourhood. In a strange turn of event, we, the ‘protectors’, had to become the protected. Our Muslim friends managed to save us by telling them we were Muslims. That couldn’t, however, save some Hindu households in the vicinity.

    About half-an-hour after the incident, a procession wielding red flags emerged to assure us of ‘normalcy’ and ‘safety’. We went down the stairs and approached a crowd gathered around a house that had lost its two male earning members (they were hacked to death). As we recounted the violent incident, some Hindu communists spewed frustration: “You Hindus are worms, you deserve to die.” A DYFI [Democratic Youth Federation of India, the youth wing of the CPI(M)] activist turned to us, boys, and uttered in disgust, “jakhon musolmanra apnader akromon korechhilo, apnara ki secularism cho**chchhilen? (When the Muslims attacked you, were you fornicating with secularism?)” Then they turned to the just-widowed, wailing Hindu women, left a little boy with a country-made pistol for his family’s ‘protection’, theatrically thundered, “लाल सलाम/LAl salAm!” and left the scene to shower ‘sympathy’ on other victims of the mini-riot.

    That was more or less a repeat of the scene on 2 November 1984 that I had witnessed in Bokaro Steel City, the city that had lost 42 Sikhs (official figure) — toll next only to the country’s capital — to the pogrom allegedly engineered by RK Dhawan-Jagdish Tytler-HKL Bhagat-Sajjan Kumar’s Delhi-centric Congress, post-Indira Gandhi’s assassination. The only difference there was that the ‘sympathising’ Youth Congress leaders had spoken in Hindi with a Magahi accent. And instead of a “lAl salAm”, they shouted, “Indira Gandhi अमर रहे / amar rahe (Long live Indira Gandhi)!”

    Closer in history, The Pioneer’s Kolkata-based correspondent Saugar Sengupta was relating an incident that followed the hooliganism perpetrated by Idris Ali in Kolkata to demand the ouster of Taslima Nasreen in November 2007 (it was a ploy to divert people’s attention from the CPI(M)’s atrocities in Nandigram; but let’s not digress). The journalist was accompanying the current Union Minister for Information and Broadcasting, Priyaranjan Dasmunshi, on a trip to the affected areas after tempers had cooled down. While the two were inside the car, Dasmunshi pointed towards the Muslim dwellings and said, “ei puro elakata talibani; eder ekta uchit shikkha dewa dorkar (This area is infested with Taliban-like elements. They must be taught a lesson).”

    A few minutes later, the car reached the village centre. Dasmunshi and Sengupta disembarked; a few party workers rushed some villagers to the spot, and the politician stood on a wooden stool to address them in ‘Bangdi’ (Bangla influenced Hindi). The crux of the speech roughly translated to: “We, the Congress, are the only party that understands and appreciates your religious sentiments. I assure you on behalf of my government that immediate action will be taken (in the matter of Taslima Nasreen)!”

    I told Saugar it was a scoop; why did he not expose Dasmunshi’s double-face in his report? He said that would have amounted to a “breach of privilege” and that every politician thereafter would be wary of interacting with such a journalist.

    That shouldn’t surprise other scribes. They are used to hearing so many similar, off-the-record statements from communist politicians as well. They all agree unofficially that there is merit in the politics of the BJP, but it would be politically suicidal for them to toe the rightist line. Even officially, from RSP leader Abani Ray to CPI leader AB Bardhan, most leftists admit that the original ASI affidavit that disputed the existence of the Ramayana’s Rama and Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi’s act of cocking a snook at the Hindu deity were insensitive and unwarranted acts, even if the right to practise atheism should be granted. One may recall that in 2002, after the attack on the American Centre, West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee had accused the مدرسة/madrassahs in his state of harbouring terrorists. The state’s Muslim community leaders then launched a statewide agitation with over a hundred thousand students of madrassahs taking to the streets. If that was Bhattacharjee’s emotional outburst, remember, in a huff one always forgets political correctness and speaks his mind.

    To show how vacuous the secularism practised by India’s ‘secular’ parties is, furnishing some facts that cannot be called this writer’s subjective observation at all is imperative. You think the communists must be atheists, or at least agnostics if not irreligious? If yes, how come in Kerala, where there is a cult surrounding Ayyappa, the LDF governments — as much as their UDF counterparts — on the last day of the visit in January, officially involves the state’s electricity department, forest department and temple administration in the function? On the other hill near Sabarimala, the Marxist government arranges for the illumination of camphor to cater to the devotees’ faith surrounding a divine light?

    This is not to force a case of the state’s disregard for any religion. The question is: Why government? Let any private trust take up the job.

    As for West Bengal, every Bengali in his lifetime in West Bengal or during an autumnal visit there has encountered hoodlums of the CPM fold extorting from the people chanda (donation) for Durga Puja. How much of the collected amount goes into the coffers of the neighbourhood puja committee is anybody’s guess. Even if it is handed over honestly to the organisers of the festival, it is actually an ugly contest — which local honcho’s arena looks more flamboyant than his peers’. That, in turn, reflects who wields how much clout in the locality.

    That is, my children, the real face of secularism practised by the Congress and Indian communists. My advice to Indian Muslims: Assume Hindu names and seek the membership of any party you consider secular (according to your own distorted version of the term). You will know what the secularists speak of you when they think no Muslim is overhearing them. It would, of course, call for a different article to analyse why the Congress and the communists do not have similar surreptitious and evil designs for other religious minorities.
    [..]

    Source: http://surajitdasgupta.blogspot.com/2008/09/two-great-indian-humbugs.html

  • 103. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Kaffir

    So, where is the proof of this secularism being practiced in India?

    The proof is in the common man. We ordinary citizens who work with each other, form friendships and relationships with each other, live in a society together.

    There are elements in the political establishment who don’t share that idea of secularism that exists on the ground. And they have been increasingly misusing it to create artificial divides for their own political gains.

  • 104. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Kaffir

    I have done this earlier but let me again clarify a misunderstanding about me.

    I am not a member or spokesperson of Congress or left or Samajwadi or BSP or any other political outfit. So the article is really of little interest to me. In fact, I have myself said it countless number of times so far and I say it again that the pseudo-secular politicians, including many from the present Congress party, have hijacked and misused secularism.

    Therefore, I am of the opinion that there is a need to reclaim secularism from the pseudos. That can’t be achieved by extremism. It will be achieved only by treating people fairly and equally and without any bias or discrimination.

  • 105. Kaffir said:

    Ashish, my comment #102 was in response to your comment #91 where you wrote:
    “But if they could says all these things so openly, imagine what they actually think behind the closed doors!”

    and to show that it is actually the secular party that says one thing in public and another in private.

    ===

    And I don’t think that your comment #104 qualifies as an answer to my question. We’re discussing institutional secularism, because that’s what the definition entails, and not about some individual thinking of common man. You are once again trying to wiggle out of your own contradictions.

  • 106. Kaffir said:

    =>
    I am not a member or spokesperson of Congress or left or Samajwadi or BSP or any other political outfit.
    =>

    Yet the majority of your comments here have been critical of RSS/right-wing when there is a mountain of proof that it is the left-Congress that has hijacked your favorite secularism.

    Why blame me and others for coming to a conclusion about you based on what you’ve been writing, and the direction in which you’ve been directing your diatribes?

    Perhaps if you’d written lengthy posts critical of left-Congress, I’d have been inclined to come to the conclusion that you are not a member or a spokesperson of Congress/left.
    *shrug*

  • 107. Kaffir said:

    =>
    Why is hiring a muslim still considered the last choice in a company? Why after 50 years of independence our so called tolerant society has not been able to accommodate Muslims, Scheduled Castes and other lowly beings into the mainstream?
    =>

    India is home to many minorities, and not just Muslims. Why do you think it’s only one minority that hasn’t been “accommodated” in the mainstream? Could it be that this one community refuses to be accommodated, places its religious identity above everything else and refuses to compromise/give-take? Could it be that the religious texts of this one community explicitly tell its followers not to mix and mingle with the kaffirs who are dirty and unclean, and instead to live with fellow-Muslims? Could it be that there’s a history which many people ignore (or believe the distorted Marxist version) when what they see is non-accommodation? Why is it that Muslims all over the world when living in a minority cause problems (Sweden, Holland, USA, Denmark)? How many instances can you give of other religious minorities causing trouble in western democracies? How do those troubles compare to those caused by Muslims? Perhaps Muslims need to do some introspection and start some reform of their own religion which keeps them backward and in shackles.

    And then, with Congress ruling India for ~50 of 60 years, I’m amazed at the disingenuous and dishonest comments which squarely put the blame of backwardness of Muslims at the feet of BJP/right wing (which completed only one full term) instead of where it rightly belongs – Congress-left!!

  • 108. Kaffir said:

    =>
    Friends, instead of wasting time on Bashing congress or muslims for every ill in India and its society, please find ways to include them in the mainstream. Handover a day’s bread and clothing and self respect and you will not have a terrorist.
    =>

    So in other words, your argument is “Give me bread otherwise I will start killing people”?? Is that your impression of Muslims? If so, please stop being politically correct.

    And according to your logic, Osama Bin Laden, Ayman-Al Zawahiri, Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and Faisal Shahzad are/were lacking in bread and clothing that led them to the actions they took? Same goes for those who run ISI and its terrorist organizations. At least make statements based on facts!!

    Oh, and “self respect” by definition is developed by the self – it cannot be given by others. :)

  • 109. sat said:

    @ Anand Jain ‘you wrote – @Malvika – Pl get your statistics right on the media as the majority is owned by Indians. Any talk of planting news stories to malign Hindus only is a misnomer.

    Not sure if you followed Sankarachary’s story covered by the media in 2004 & 2005. Almost all stories were planed and without any evidence. One of the magazines reported the a shop keeper selling cocunts was also providing junior pontiff with porno vcd’S.. and the mutt’s monthly contribution to a poor lady to help with her cancer treatment was reported as maintenance payment for a mistress. When they were proved wrong, did these media outlets apologize on their front pages.. BIG NO… THEY TOOK ALL THE MONEY AND LAUGHED ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. If you say stories are not planted intentinally, they should conspicously apologize. but, that does not happen. ON why they dont mess with other religions – Their office will be bombed.. Other religions respond with violence. Hindus go to court for restraining orders… by the time the case comes up for hearing the damage is done. The distortion and intentional maligning of hindu gurus is true and real. Why the media does it? They do it for money.. to please the ruling party. In anycase, We are not dicsussing about the motives of the media and why public cant sweep these news under the carpet … We are only highlighting what is hapenning with the media.. Motives could be anything.

  • 110. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    “Handover a day’s bread and clothing and self respect and you will not have a terrorist.”

    The reverse may be true. Illegal money and also fake currencies received through various sources including those from ISI must be the reason for this. How can one presume these people don’t have have wherewithal for a day’s bread and clothing and self respect too.

    http://dailypioneer.com/270655/Jihadi-books-seized-from-NDF-men.html

  • 111. Sid said:

    Sat/Kaffir,
    Please cool down. Mr. Jain is trying to sell conspiracy theories here. Facts/evidences are the sort of luxuries conspiracy theory sellers can not afford.

  • 112. cricfan said:

    Dear Ashish:
    I’m new to this blog, and while you have made excellent points, i’m disturbed by some example(s) what plainly looks bias in your comments that may potentially dent your credibility as an impartial commentator. As a first example:

    … You may want to deny ‘Hindu terrorism’ but it’s been around for a while now. Granted they are not as lethal as the Islamic terrorists but we can’t wait till they get to that point.

    … But although the claim that many from Kerala are fighting in Kashmir are a little exaggerated, there appears to be a disturbing enough trend in the rise of Islamic extremism.
    (snipped for brevity) …. Although I don’t see as a very big problem, .. (snipped for brevity) … A matter of worry, indeed but not apocalyptic
    .”

    why do you feel that we simply can’t wait to fix the first kind of rising violence, while dealing with the latter kind of increasing violence is somehow exaggerated and much less important ???

    Shouldn’t there be equal cause for concern if one were to take a “purely” secular viewpoint?

  • 113. Vishwa said:

    The terminology of “Hindutva terror” is a misnomer.
    Religion is not attached to terror based on the religion of the perpetrator. Meaning, if a terrorist is of religion X, then his act cannot be called as “X Terror”. We need to check what inspired him to such an act? What made him think that terror was the right way”

    So using the above way, we can brand terrorism in kashmir as islamic terror. Reasons..
    1. The terrorism draws direct inspiration to create a muslim state which is called as dar-ul-islam
    2. Jihad is the religious war to convert the whole world into believers. Every terrorist, terrorist organisation beleives(rather swears) in this principle.

    Both 1 and 2 have sanctions from the texts of islam(Koran-Hadis-Sharia) for more info one may go to Sitaram Goel, RamSwarup.

    Now to call something as Hindu terror, there are no such sources. Hence the term Hindu terror is a misnomer

    There have been lot of comments, sorry if its a repetition of what some others have said..

  • 114. Vishwa said:

    “You may want to deny ‘Hindu terrorism’ but it’s been around for a while now. Granted they are not as lethal as the Islamic terrorists but we can’t wait till they get to that point.”

    Mr.Ashish,
    Yes it is very important to curb it(if something of that sort really exists). For that matter any sort of extremism needs to be curbed. I don’t see anyone supporting it either. My contention is only with the fact that you attach Hindu to the act and call it Hindu terror.
    While I don’t care to absolve any of the accused, I disagree with the Hindu tag along with it.

  • 115. GyanP said:

    @Vishwa
    Thanks for the comment. I was just going to make this same observation. This is just the point.
    Islamic terrorists are called so, because they do it in the name of Islam. There is the concept of jihad in Islam. The same is true of the Crusades in Christianity. However, there is no such evangelical mission attached with Hindu religion.
    There are Hindu scriptures which tell you clearly the path to enlightenment, to know the God, if you just follow the path – like the Yoga (the true yoga, not the Hath Yoga made popular by pop Gurus). For doing this it is not even required to be a Hindu. That is a path to the God. God is one – it is same everywhere – this is what we believe – so no need to talk about conversion and crusades.
    The religion which wants to expand itself – it should be called politics in the language of religion. The true religion does not go out of its way to kill and create mayhem to spread itself. But the Abrahamic religions are like that.
    You can see an army of missionaries in India. Not only the direct recruits of the Church, but even the part timer ones, who come to countries like India. Those who actually have some other full time job, but practice evangelical activities just to be true Christians.
    Now, no such requirement is not there in Hinduism. Above all, no such ‘body’ is there to oversea such operations. But, the promptness and the glee with which the government machinery and the media alike start calling names like Hindu Terrorists makes their intentions suspect.
    Even the hard evidence is lacking, so far as we can understand from the news.
    Is the same promptness shown in dealing with Islamic terrorists?
    Even otherwise, suppose the proof comes out – you cannot name such people Hindu Terrorists. They may be having their own agenda. This is law and order problem – if ever it is there.
    Terrorism is an organized violent act with a clear agenda, and an organized body behind it.
    Maybe, the lady at the top is not bothered about the sentiments of Hindus. And Hindus are too peaceful/blase/ignorant to the point of being weak, and not worth caring about (by politicians, I mean)!

  • 116. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Vishwa, Gyan

    I agree with your assessment of Hinduism. I agree that no Hindu texts call for violence (I haven’t read them all but from my association with the Hinduism for over 2 decades and from the things my grandmother and my mother taught me about Hinduism, I could safely deduce that there’s no call to violence.)

    I also agree with your assessment that Islamic terrorism could easily draw sanctions from the Koran and Hadiths. That’s why I’ve said it multiple times that it is a very dangerous religion and needs to be kept under check.

    However, the mistake we make is to relate the ‘Hindu terror’ with the concepts of Hinduism and you and I understand it. Because here’s a vast difference.

    My observation has been that the ‘Hindutva’ was hijacked by the Sangh and the BJP in a big way since 1993. They have created an aggressive brand of Hinduism that’s very appealing to many thick-headed, hot-blooded people. They’ve used it to great advantage during the 90s for their political gains. Bear in mind, this brand of Hindutva never existed. This is what I call ‘Hindu extremism’.

    This ‘Hindu extremism’ has given rise in the very recent past to the ‘Hindu terror’. Take the latest case of Purohit who wanted to create a ‘Hindu’ nation! (evidence link attached in my earlier post). And his acts could find ideological sanctions in the Sangh (again, many evidence links of the Sangh position in my post above).

    There are many other young men clad in saffron and in khakhi chaddis who are learning to make bombs with every intention of exploding them.

    So to sum up, ‘Hinduism’ has been hijacked by the Sangh in much the same way as ‘secularism’ has been hijacked by the pseudo-seculars. Now if you think of it, ‘Hinduism’ and ‘secularism’ aren’t two different things. They are one and the same. But in the present conditions, they’ve been made to clash with each other.

    So let’s not deny that there are people who are willing to cause trouble in the name of ‘Hinduism’ as they understand it. Only when accept that could we confront them with the real ‘Hinduism’ and real ‘secularism’.

  • 117. sat said:

    @ Ashish – you are saying “from my association with the Hinduism for over 2 decades and from the things my grandmother and my mother taught me about Hinduism, I could safely deduce that there’s no call to violence.)”

    After 20 years of association you can only ‘deduce’??? I am surprised. Sorry, if this sarcastic.

    BJP and Sangh are not representatives of Hinduism (very clear from the fact that BJP won only one term).

    you are saying ‘There are many other young men clad in saffron and in khakhi chaddis who are learning to make bombs with every intention of exploding them’. AGAIN, THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION… JUST LIKE THE TV ACHORS babble.

    all we say is there might be Hindus dealing with terror. But, do not call it Hindu terror. They dont kill in the name of God or to see God in heaven, like other terrorists do.

  • 118. GyanP said:

    @sat,
    Yes, I agree with you. We should not call some miscreants as Hindu Terrorists, as if their acts, if any, have got sanction from Hindu Religion. The people who do it are insensitive, and do not care about the sentiments of Hindus.

  • 119. Ashwin Kumaraswamy said:

    I just dont understadn why there needs to be such a bige adn cry about hindu or islamic terrorism!
    Perpetuators of terror dont have any religion per say, they take shelter in the narrow interpretation of religion/philosophy to convince themselves that terror acts is necessary to meet their respective goals. The very reason they take refuge in terms of philosophy and or religion shows that they cant back themselves up with a particular reason to carry out terror activities other than furthering their personal goals.

    It is high time media, stops sensenationalising the news and report terror acts as purely terror and not talk about the religions of the people involved in terror activities.

    The concept of Hindu terror started because, BJP/RSS and the right wing india political and social organisations equated terror acts perpetuated on India as anti Hindu and since it was being carried out by and large by those in Pakistan and people commiting such activities were mulims as Islamic terrorists, to gain narrow political milegae post 1992!

    To counter that issue of islamic terror concept now widely advertised and publicised by the right wing organisations the left wing and or some secularists who had come under heavy attack from right wing organisations for supporting the casuse of secluarism, are now advertising the concept of right wing terror!

    So for one cant we call it and end! Political parties and organisations have toyed around and played on the minds of innocent ppl for long time to gain political mileage of terror activities – it is important India should speak in one voice when acts of terror are carried out against inida.

  • 120. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Sat

    1) After 20 years of association you can only ‘deduce’??? I am surprised. Sorry, if this sarcastic.

    Please let me know how this contributes to the discussion.

    2) BJP and Sangh are not representatives of Hinduism (very clear from the fact that BJP won only one term).

    Precisely the point I am making. But those who are causing trouble in the name of ‘Hinduism’ are drawing their ideological argument from the Sangh. That’s why I said it is important to counter that.

    3) AGAIN, THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION… JUST LIKE THE TV ACHORS babble.

    Naresh Rajkondwar and Himanshu Panse died and three others were injured whilst making a bomb in their home in Nanded. All RSS activists.

    Malgonda Patil died whilst exploding a bomb in Goa. He belonged to Santana Sanstha.

    Lt. Col. Purohit bombed the Samjhauta express. He wanted to create a Hindu India. He belonged to Abhinav Bharat.

    They were not TV Anchor’s babble. They were real people, with real sinister motives.

    I again repeat. I don’t blame ‘Hinduism’ for this. I blame the Sangh’s version of ‘Hinduism’ and that needs to be countered.

    I think we are saying the same thing. Talking the same language. Let’s not manufacture differences for the sake of an argument.

  • 121. Vishwa said:

    An article on similar lines to what is being discussed here http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/main-article_hindu-liberals-failure_1388255

  • 122. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Vishwa

    Agree with most of the argument.

    “Liberal Hindus have to reassert their Hindu identities if more radical outfits are not to hijack the religion.”

    This sums up the whole point. I have made a similar argument on http://www.indianliberals.org

    Cheers!
    AD

  • 123. Vishwa said:

    The author also makes one more important point in his article

    The third point of difference is the uneven nature of Indian secularism. India’s phony secularists believe that majority communalism should be fought with abuse and bluster, but minority communalism should be brushed under the carpet. Harbans Mukhia, a history professor at Delhi’s Jawaharlal Nehru University, has repeatedly made the same point.

    Writing on the issue some time back, he said: “Secular mobilisation has lent strength to the notion that while all communalism is bad, majority communalism poses a much greater threat to the nation than minority communalism… The ‘secular’ parties’ unwillingness to question, challenge and confront minority communalism has thus created a space for it to grow, as its leaders realise the power vested in it as a political force or vote bank.”

    The words used by so-called secularists to differentiate between the two kinds of communalism are also revealing. Yoginder Sikand, writing on Simi after the 2006 Mumbai train blasts, had this to say: “…the radicalism of Islamist groups like Simi, on the one hand, and Hindu fascist groups, on the other, feed on each other, both speaking the language of hatred.” Mark the use of loaded words. While a neutral word like “radical” is used for Simi, Hindu groups are “fascist,” a value-judgmental term. Where’s the evenhandedness?”

  • 124. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Vishwa

    India’s phony secularists believe that majority communalism should be fought with abuse and bluster, but minority communalism should be brushed under the carpet.

    Yes he is right. Communalism and extremism need not either be fought with abuse and bulster or be brushed under the carpet.

    Communalism and extremism, be it majority or minority, must be fought with a strong hand of the law & order machinery.

  • 125. Ashish Deodhar said:

    And of course by reclaiming secularism from the pseudo-seculars.

  • 126. Vishwa said:

    @ahsish
    While there is extremism in the Sangh Parivar with likes of Bajrang Dal etc., we cannot paint the whole parivar with the same brush. I have myself heard many RSS functionaries admitting that Bajrang Dal, and some other affiliated groups have gone out of hand and there is a need to rein them.

    Also in the past week or so, the RSS has shown very strong intent to say no to “unprovoked violence and extremism”

    Extremism attracts over-enthusiastic youth. There have to be efforts to handle them effectively. Good that RSS is taking a step towards this.
    Before totally trashing RSS lets also see some of the good thing that they do, be it vanavasi kalyan or building nationalism in its cadre(not referring to fringe here)

  • 127. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Vishwa

    The problem with RSS and the parivar is that the bad outweighs the good. They may have been doing some good work here and there but their basic ideology is flawed (as explained above).

    If they are denouncing violence and extremism, that’s a good start. But look at the cunning way they’ve inserted ‘unprovoked’ in there! Provocation is a very subjective term. Who decides what is provocative and what is not? We definitely shouldn’t leave it to the RSS to decide on that. For some, it may simply be conversions and they use it to justify their violence!

    So if the RSS has decided to sober up, that’s good news but they have a long way to go! For time being, they should always be kept under the radar.

  • 128. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    http://expressbuzz.com/cities/thiruvananthapuram/book-on-karkare-an-inspiration-for-pfi-activists/191581.html

    “The book could be used as an effective tool to woo more youths towards Muslim extremist ideologies. The Muslim extremist outfits are even resorting to the propaganda that the community will dominate Kerala by 2040,”

    It is time for the so called secularists to take stock. After what has happened to the Pandits in Kashmir what is in store for us ?

  • 129. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Subramanian

    “The Muslim extremist outfits are even RESORTING TO THE PROPAGANDA that the community will dominate Kerala by 2040,”

    It’s a propaganda! It would be very naive to assume that that’s exactly what’s going to happen.

    @Vishwa

    Further to my last comment, we cannot justify any violence – provoked or unprovoked – by the ordinary citizens. Violence should always be a tool only in the hands of the army (in case of war) and the law & order machinery (as in case of 26/11). Violence should be used only by the security forces where it is imperative to use it for the lack of any other option.

  • 130. Usse farak padega kya said:

    Indian Media have got it right!! Have a look at these numbers about postings on this website.

    RigVeda in UN Heritage (8th July ) – in 13 days List 30 Views 1 comment

    Saluting our Heroes: Nb Subedar Bana Singh, (June) PVC 130 Views No Comment

    Open Letter to Rahul Gandhi from a “not-so-Aam” Aadmi* 834 Views 38 comments

    Exploding the Myth of “Hindutva Terror” (19th July) in 2 days 1090 Vies 129 comments

    Media houses have to make money. They need eyeballs. Mischievous insinuating articles will get the eyeballs. If you get Zolivalas to spar with Chaddivals, even better. More comments. More eyeballs. More money. None of them cares about Indian soldiers or Rigveda or anything that requires study, anything that isn’t fun. Writing comments is such a great fun, isn’t it?

  • 131. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    Yes Mr. Deodhar, the hindus who were left to fend for themselves in Pakistan and Bangladesh were naive. They are reduced to a meager 1% in Pakistan and 8% in Bangladesh from over 20% Pakistan and 30% in Bangladesh. The hindus of Kashmir who are driven out from their homes are also naive. And we too are naive. For when the time comes no secularists will be around to protect us. Have you seen a whimper of protest for the hindus who are driven out from Kashmir and are languishing in tents for the last twenty years. What kind of secularism is this ?

    What is actually required is implementation of SECULARISM in letter and spirit rather than crying wolf at hindu terrorism.

    What happened in India is implementation of selective secularism of pampering a certain section of people. One gets a subsidy for pilgrimage and for the majority community is not even allowed to manage their temples and are nationalised by the government.

  • 132. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Subramanian

    You haven’t said anything new to what Vishwa and I have been saying so far. So let’s not take this forward. I eco your sentiments and agree with you that secularism needs to be implemented in letter and in spirit.

  • 133. Sid said:

    Subramanian,

    What is actually required is implementation of SECULARISM in letter and spirit rather than crying wolf at hindu terrorism.
    Can you explain to me what is secularism anyway and what are it’s various benefits that has been realized across the world or how did it counter Islamic extremism? I asked a great “real” secular about that in this thread but he told me that it is such a hard concept that only few people get it and nobody in India practiced it so far. Can you please enlighten me?

  • 134. GyanP said:

    @KSV SUBRAMANIAN
    Agreed – let us not be naive.

    @ Ashish Deodhar
    I think you also agree – that let us not be naive. Closing our eyes like a pigeon when the cat is approaching will not make you look very bright in the end – sorry my sarcasm here. if someone is pointing about the nefarious designs of a third party let us not rush out on the streets to pronounce our value judgments.

    There is no doubt we Indians are naive. Remember the suggestion of the first defense minister of India to not to have any army at all, as we were a peace loving nation!

    Denouncing those who point out out the ill-designs of other religions is just these same thing – let us not repeat our historic mistakes, and learn something from history.

    And, please understand that precisely the good points of democracy and secularism are used as the crack points by Abrahamic religions and other dogmas to sneak into the society.

    When someone above is saying that the situation in Kerala is bad – then take it as a fact; it is indeed bad. Now even the so called secular media has started accepting it, the situation must be quite bad to prompt them to even mention it –

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Home/Sunday-TOI/Special-Report/Taliban-style-courts-in-Gods-Own-Country/articleshow/6182633.cms

    Another view -
    http://www.vigilonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1136&Itemid=72

    And before talking negatively about those speak of the protection of the Hindus, please see the following link; this plain naivete of Hindus is all too apparent even to outsiders-

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/when_elites_eschew_defense_the.html

    When someone is angry, then instead of disapproving the anger itself, it is always wise to understand why he is angry!

    My question – can secularism become your weakness?

  • 135. Kaffir said:

    =>
    I asked a great “real” secular about that in this thread but he told me that it is such a hard concept that only few people get it and nobody in India practiced it so far.
    =>

    Actually, Sid, he wrote that this secularism is practiced by common people in India. Though what that means and what actions fall under it is anybody’s guess. :)

    Maybe the fact that Parsis were given shelter in India falls under secularism. Maybe the fact the Jews have lived in India without being persecuted, is another result of secularism. Then again, I’m not smart enough and don’t have the “intellectual” heft, and these examples just show that “Hinduism” is secular by nature, and that is just taboo for “liberals”, because “Hinduism” is all evil and all about caste. I mean, how could an ancient religion measure up to the newfangled idea of secularism which came from the West and needs to be blindly adopted by all?

    Just like real Muslim and not-real Muslim, now we have real secularists and not-real secularists. As to who decides who is the real secularist and who isn’t, and based on what, that’s also up in the air. Perhaps Ashish will choose to enlighten us on these issues, while telling us that we’re wrong.

    Seems to me that “secularism” has become yet another badge that people want to put on their chests without having a clue as to what it means, its history (both in the world as well as in India), the context to Indian society, what it entails and how it applies to situations on the ground. If asked some basic questions about secularism, all we get is “only a few people get it” and some lazy misdirections or intellectual masturbation.

  • 136. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Kaffir

    Your comment was for Sid but I see this: “Perhaps Ashish will choose to enlighten us on these issues” and hence stepping in.

    Secularism is simply treating each other fairly and equally and without any prejudice or discrimination. It’s not very difficult to grasp (although I admit some people find it difficult to get) but all it needs is an open mind.

    @Gyan

    “if someone is pointing about the nefarious designs of a third party let us not rush out on the streets to pronounce our value judgments”

    That’s about right.

  • 137. Kaffir said:

    Ashish, did you just make up that definition of secularism?

    Under your definition, what Rajiv Gandhi did as a PM would qualify. He used the majority of his party in the Parliament to bypass the Supreme Court regarding the Shah Bano case, and then allowed shilanyas to happen in Ayodhya. There you go – fairness and equality – bowing down to the religious sentiments of two communities. :)

    C’mon, you’ll have to do better than that sorry definition of “secularism” you pulled from under your hat. I’ve seen you ask tough questions in the “Balkanization of Pakistan” post. Now, apply the same toughness to your definition and understanding of “secularism”. And we’re talking of state/government, not individuals vis-a-vis secularism.

  • 138. Indian Pundit said:

    Honestly , same Right wing drama everywhere!!!

    Be it India , Pakistan , USA , Britain , Israel…….Right-wingers( mostly unintentionally) play the same games and how a section of “educated” people simply fall prey to it.

    My advice: Take a break. And drink ur capitalist Cola!

    It tastes better than Non-Sense!!

    @Ashish Deodhar…..A voice of reason!

  • 139. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Kaffir

    Yes that’s my definition. But for your benefit, here’s the Merriam-Webster definition – “indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations”

    Treating each other fairly and equally without any prejudice or discrimination isn’t far off from this, in fact, it is an extension of the above definition.

    And anyway, let’s not get entangled in definitions. Because we would use that only for point-scoring purposes. The idea is to ensure that we don’t let one or the other religion, caste, race etc. get in the way of how we treat people.

    I agree with your contention that no political party in India is secular. I have said that repeatedly in my earlier posts. And that’s why it is essential that we reclaim it from those who abuse it and misuse it. That’s why I have joined the Freedom Team of India because I believe that the FTI will implement secularism in letter and spirit.

  • 140. Kaffir said:

    =>
    And anyway, let’s not get entangled in definitions. Because we would use that only for point-scoring purposes. The idea is to ensure that we don’t let one or the other religion, caste, race etc. get in the way of how we treat people.
    =>

    But you seemed to get entangled in the definition of Hindu and what the RSS meant by it. :)

    Next, you’ll say that we shouldn’t sing the song “Saare Jahan se Achcha” because it contains the word “Hindustan” in it which your Portuguese ex-girlfriend and your f-i-l cannot sing because they’re not Hindu.

    And if we don’t get the definition – which is the very basic – right and concordant, how will we ever approach getting it right in practice? Words do carry meaning.

    Anyway, I won’t beat the dead horse.

  • 141. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Kaffir

    Okay I am wrong. Let me stop here.

    You shoot. What’s your idea? What, in your opinion, needs to be done in order to make India a stronger, safer and harmonious country?

  • 142. Sid said:

    Kaffir,
    I have long given up any hope that Ashish will ever produce any post that would remain consistent with at least three of his previous posts on the same thread.
    About secularism, my question is still on. Let us see, if anybody attempts it.

  • 143. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    @Sid: Secularism as I understand is separation of affairs of the State from religion whether minority or majority. Absolute non-interference should be scrupulously followed except for the sake of maintaining law and order. Leave spiritual matters to the citizens. Let them run their temples or just ruin it. It is not the business of the government that too professing secularism and elected by people belonging to different religions to take over temples and administer it. Neither giving subsidy for pilgrimage, payment of salary/pension to religious teachers, or for that matter any special benefit given on the basis of ones religion is surely against secularism.

    When the so called secularists repeat ad nauseam that all the religions are the same and lead to the same goal even proselytism should be discouraged or banned. Let the people decide through which way they want to go to heaven or hell. Why one should be bribed to go to a particular heaven creating ill will among communities.

    When numbers are not in our favour there won’t be any secularism nor democracy to be debated upon. Please go through the following link:
    http://dailypioneer.com/270655/Jihadi-books-seized-from-NDF-men.html

  • 144. seadog4227 said:

    Foll. taken from Sarve Samachar website, in direct connection to your initial discussion:

    http://vivekajyoti.blogspot.com/2010/07/all-about-outlook-vinod-mehta-liar-par.html

    *** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

    Pl avoid copy-pasting large amount of text; Pl provide a link instead Thanks

  • 145. Kaffir said:

    =>
    “from my association with the Hinduism for over 2 decades and from the things my grandmother and my mother taught me about Hinduism, I could safely deduce that there’s no call to violence.”
    =>

    Ashish, my understanding is that in Hinduism, there’s no such “no call to violence” but that there’s no call to initiation of violence, and no call to violence to spread the word of god. As for protection and self-defense, or for upholding dharma, I can give countless examples from “Hinduism” that call for violence, be it Lord Ram, Pandavas, Parshuram etc. So, it has depended on the specific situation, context and the participants whether there’s call to violence or not. Leave aside “Hinduism”, such a thinking as espoused by many (non-violence at any cost) wouldn’t even pass a common sense test.

    What I don’t understand is this fetish that some make of equating Hinduism with non-violence by very selectively picking-and-choosing (your mom’s Hinduism, saint and scorpion story you told earlier), when there are numerous counter-examples staring them in the face. Non-violence does not mean being passive or showing cowardice.

    And this needs to be said, please don’t interpret my comment as excusing any and all violence.

  • 146. Anupam said:

    We do not seem to be discussing the role played by media in creating this phantom Hindu Terror. We have discussed RSS, BJP, castes and everything but the role media is playing in creating this hype which will be eventually picked up by international media and in no time we will see these articles from outlook reproduced as is. Not to mention that all this is just an imagination of certain journalists and a zeal to sensationalize the issue. It probably also serves one political party to keep the India divided and continue playing vote bank politics. I am also wondering if this is just an attempt to sell few more copies or is part of certain grand scheme. Does is involve some sort of payment from religious organization, political party or foreign government( there are stories that KGB use to pay mainstream newspapers to publish socialist columns and stories in 60s and 70s )?

    Please note that I am trying to ask these questions as I am baffled at the persistence of certain media outlets to create fictitious Hindu Terror.

    Anupam

  • 147. Sid said:

    @Subramaniyan,

    First my applause for not messing it up with fairness or equality or other such stuff. Some of the people who get secularism often mix it up.

    Let us continue. So, in your concept, government should ignore religion and proceed in a way that if, faced with a matter of administration that is in direct contradiction of religious belief, it must strictly obey the laws decided for it. Good.

    Now here comes the puzzle.There exists a country I where three religions exist: A, B and C. Followers of B determines that if they have to follow their religion strictly, then “I” can not be governed by followers of A or followers of C. Agreeing to such a demand would be to eliminate the secularism. Not agreeing to the demand would mean that the certain religious rights of followers of B has to be suspended. What should a true secular government do and why? Remember, for the secular administration of “I”, both right to practice religion and right to choose administrators irrespective of religious identity would be very sacred.

  • 148. Ashish Deodhar said:

    @Anupam

    I think we’ve discussed at length here whether or not ‘Hindu terrorism’ is fictitious. I am saying that it is and the longer we keep denying it, the worse it will get.

    And I don’t accept the analysis that the media is out to create this Hindu terror. If you open TOI, HT or watch any other mainstream channel, they make a lot more fuss about Islamic terrorism, as they should.

    So I refuse to accept this “victimization of Hindus” claim made on this blog. Having worked closely with the media, I agree that there are compulsions of TRPs etc. and some sensationalism comes into play but it’s only sensationalism of real stories i.e. they will present a story as if it’s a drama – hence the “prince” falling into a bore well becomes a hysteria. But the actual content doesn’t change much.

    As I said, we can’t blame ‘Hinduism’ for this new phenomenon but we have to begin to accept that some elements in our society use it to achieve their short-sighted objectives.

  • 149. Sid said:

    Anupam,
    Because somehow most of us are convinced that regardless of what we say media would continue to project Hindus as something of a disgrace.

  • 150. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Dear All: Sorry for being slow in responding to the comments…I had serious connectivity issues yesterday and have been caught up in some work since then…
    First off, thanks to everyone who wrote back. The volume of responses means I am unable to thank everyone by name (which as many of you know, I like to do) but I hope you understand.
    Comments are what makes this site come alive. So I am truly grateful to everyone who has engaged in this discussion in the spirit of genuine curiosity and concern.

    A few general points are in order, I feel.
    1] There is a vast difference between a “Hindu Terrorist” and “Hindutva Terror” or “Hindu Terror”. I am sure most of you will appreciate this.
    2] To read my personal opinion on these acts, pl see my comments #12 and #80 on this post http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/11/02/of-students-and-sadhvis/
    3] I get the feeling that a majority of us feel there is something seriously wrong with “secularism” in the way it is “practised” in India. This is potentially a topic for a Live Chat.

    Two specific remarks (for two friends!):
    @Anand (#37): Welcome to the heat and dust of real debate! You may have misunderstood me. I did ask you to “stay away from politics”. But that was so that you could focus on your start-up, make your millions and then join us/FTI full-time!
    And just to clarify, I do want everyone to be aware (politically) and involved – to the extent they can. So I appreciate your joining the discussion.
    @Anupam: Good comment re. a “label” being created in the public sphere which is likely to seep into mainstream discourse, if not challenged (I’m referring to the “Hindutva Terror” tag). I will be watching this space with interest.

    Thanks All.

  • 151. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    Sid: The law of the land, the Constitution should be supreme and override all other practices whether religious or otherwise. If any religious practice and custom is in direct conflict with the constitution and the law of the land the latter should prevail for have we not decided that our country is secular ? As far as the government is concerned there should be no religion, no caste, no race and no region. The difference which merits recognition should be gender, haves and have nots (and also taking into consideration of the marginalisation a section of people of hundreds of years special privileges for such people (SCs/STs) too). But the puny little power hungry short-sighted worms that infect our polity have made a mockery of secularism. The infection has become worse now and in our country secularism is on the death row as for some secularism has come to mean about promoting and appeasing minority communities and abusing the majority community. Hence Hindu/Saffron terror.

  • 152. Amit said:

    The fascist Hitler loving and monarchist Congress Party is the root of all the evil that plagues secular India. These folks refused to fight Hitler when he was off on his killing spree, with the result that Indian children today do not learn about the Nazis lest Congress have to defend their decision. And many of us are old enough to recall Indira’s emergency with its complete control over the media and Sanjay’s stormtroopers, many of whom like that murderer Kamal Nath are in government today.

    RSS better be ready with an organisational plan because Congress is liable to impose another Emergency any time now (the threat was reported in Pioneer). The saving grace is that since RSS has run the Central government and is in power in many states, this time around the armed forces have a real choice as to whether to go along or switch allegiance when push comes to shove.

  • 153. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    Is this not an act to terrorize the hindu community, not in Pakistan, but in India:

    http://dailypioneer.com/271135/Maha-House-erupts-over-cow-killings-in-Malegaon.html

    http://haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=11674&SKIN=B

    None of the so called secular media reported this for who cares for hindu sentiments.

  • 154. Madhusudan said:

    During/after infancy once the mother stops feeding breast milk it is the cow who provides us the nourishing milk. and that milk is meant for its own calf which she shares with the humans. Does it require any Ph.D to understand that cow is our mother?

    Are the Hindus not supposed to react? Is it only the muslim or christian sentiments that ought not be hurt? And when the protests against such barbarism are held, they are shown in bad light. Hindus are expected to peacefully retaliate when their mother is being killed(unfortunately, only they seem to be recognising cow as mother,).

    Even after thousands of years of cultural mingling with the native civilization of India, the abrahamic faiths have not acquired the brains to see that Cow is our mother and is supposed to be served.

    For our politicians, only Hindu fundamentalism is real and Muslim/christian fundamentalism is imaginary.

  • 155. Malavika said:

    79. Anand Jain said:

    @Malvika – Pl get your statistics right on the media as the majority is owned by Indians. Any talk of planting news stories to malign Hindus only is a misnomer.

    Anand Jain,you clearly haven’t been update with news. After all the hype, hoopla and trail by media the Shankaracharya case is collasping spectacularly. Do see any coverage beyod the fine print in mainstream
    media. The usual screaming banshees of NDTV, IBN and etc are strangely silent. What they have done is nothing but character assasination. They were busy airing ‘confessions of Shankaracharya’at one time and now they are quiet.

    “The case of the murder of Kanchipuram Shankararaman in which the Kanchi math seers Jayendra Saraswathi and Vijayendra Saraswathi are the main accused took a new turn after the lone approver, the contractor Ravi Subramaniam, deposed in the Puducherry district and sessions court yesterday that he had given false statements earlier under duress”

    ” It was only a few months back that the wife of Shankararaman, Padma and daughter, Mitreyi, also turned hostile in the case overturning their earlier statement that there were strange visitors to their house asking for Shankararaman on the day of the murder.”

    So, with such overwhelming evidence of media scullduggery why should any one trust media?

  • 156. JC Moola said:

    *** COMMENT DELETED ***

    *** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
    JC: No personal attacks please. Thanks

  • 157. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    As Shri V.S. Achuthanandan, Chief Minister of Kerala, the Muslim outfit which is in limelight recently for chopping off the hand of a Professor, wants to turn Kerala into a muslim majority state.

    Our fate seem to be sealed. Like the Pandits we may be living in tents after 20 years God only knows where ? Who is responsible ?????? Not us the much maligned hindus, is n’t it?

    http://expressbuzz.com/states/kerala/pfi-wants-kerala-to-be-muslim-majority-state-vs/192566.html

  • 158. Anupam said:

    http://www.indianliberals.org/

    Please check this out. Not sure of the blog and the author but if the author is talking about this blog then this is a perfect example of twisting the facts.

    This post was about the label created by media “Hindutva Terror”, author has conveniently changed it to Hindu Extremism. This, of course, applies only if the blog mentioned is this blog.

    Anupam

  • 159. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Thanks Anupam…Interesting.

  • 160. Sid said:

    Subramanian (#151),
    Sorry for the delay in response.
    The law of the land, the Constitution should be supreme and override all other practices whether religious or otherwise.
    The real question is what should the constitution say in such a case. You have assumed that a constitution is already built. I am asking you to suggest what should be the content of the constitution with regard to the point raised.
    As far as the government is concerned there should be no religion, no caste, no race and no region. – I am afraid that is a very simplistic view point. How does a secular constitution define a religion – a set of philosophies or a set of guidelines on how to live a life or a set of rituals? Let me restate the problem in this context: In each of these cases, what happens if a philosophical consideration or a guideline or a rituals belonging to a certain “religion” as defined in the accepted constitution calls for exclusivism in administrative or political sphere? Would the suppression of such a call be considered an attack on the right of the practitioners of the religion? Where does the boundary of the religion end and consideration of a constitution begin? If a constitution defines a religion and expect all philosophies, rituals and guidelines in all religions to fit the same mould, would it not be the infringement of rights of followers of various religions?
    The difference which merits recognition should be gender, haves and have nots (and also taking into consideration of the marginalisation a section of people of hundreds of years special privileges for such people (SCs/STs) too). But the puny little power hungry short-sighted worms that infect our polity have made a mockery of secularism. The infection has become worse now and in our country secularism is on the death row as for some secularism has come to mean about promoting and appeasing minority communities and abusing the majority community. Hence Hindu/Saffron terror.
    I am not bothered to make a distinction between well-implemented secularism and dishonest secularism (with an appology to English speakers). I am questioning the secular paradigm itself. What you said in the above section merits a separate discussion. But let us stick to the current one.

  • 161. Malavika said:

    I noticed the innuendos, half truths and blatant lies in the blog indianliberals.org. However I have no intention of increasing his web traffic. So, I am posting my comment here.

    blog claimed:

    “But then where evidence is available, as in the case of Purohit (who is now being court marshaled for his involvement in the Samjhauta attack),”

    False. This is an outright lie.
    Truth is there were reports in sections of the the media that “Purohit may face court marshall”. The same report also mentioned that there was no evidence that he ‘sourced explosives’. Go figure.

  • 162. Malavika said:

    Hindu terrorism doesn’t exist, but do we want one?

    by Rajeev Srinivasan

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the state can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.”
    .
    .
    .
    “Like the military-industrial complex in the US,there is a media-state nexus in India, whereby the mass media unquestioningly regurgitates the state’s perspective.”

    http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/main-article_hindu-terrorism-doesn-t-exist-but-do-we-want-one_1415107

  • 163. Kaffir said:

    =>
    As far as the government is concerned there should be no religion, no caste, no race and no region.
    =>

    Could you explain this point a bit more? How do we get rid of a religion when it is the ethos of a country/society? Right from “satyameva jayate” to Ashok Chakra to the symbol for PVC has religion as its source, and all of these are our National symbols endorsed by the state/government. Would/Should we get rid of all such religious symbols under your version of secularism?

  • 164. KSV SUBRAMANIAN said:

    @Kaffir. It is not getting rid of religion, but separation of religion from the affairs of the state. Satyameva Jayate, Ashoka Chakra, PVC or for that matter any other symbols do not in any way come into conflict with secularism per se. These symbols do belong to our country, our heritage our culture but cannot be attributed any religious connotations. Have we not accepted the Red Cross symbol too without in any way changing it the way some other countries did.

    Why we should explore meanings beyond an ordinary person’s understanding about secularism. It is not negation of religion nor of our culture or heritage. It is neither tolerance of any religion (but in reality certain self-styled Godfathers and other secular parties just tolerate or so to say just put up with hindus and hinduism). Treatment of the adherents belonging to all religious denominations equally whether belonging to majority or minority without in any way giving special treatment or favour to anyone.

    In India a perverse type of secularism is practiced wherein even the religious freedom of the majority community is trampled upon by usurping even their places of worship by the State. While a certain minority religion is provided subsidy for pilgrimage, exorbitant charges are levied for the services rendered like Sabarimala pilgrimage.

    Why we should have separate laws not Uniform Civil Code ? It is because of the appeasement policy practiced by the powers that be. The citizens are not treated equally.

    My understanding of secularism may be wrong. If at all it becomes a disadvantage for my belief, my religion, my culture I am still for a secular dispensation where every one of our citizens is treated equally. But I am in a nightmarish world where the first claim on our resources is for persons belonging to a particular religion.

  • 165. Ashish Deodhar said:

    A blog on one of the much targeted ‘mainstream media’ that commentators on this forum might agree with. I guess TOI has now decided not to “sell this country” anymore?

    http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indus-calling/entry/abdicating-india

  • 166. Sid said:

    @Ashish (#165)
    Could not help but comment. This is a blog. Exactly when you would get the idea that blogs are owned by individuals not the organizations?

    This particular blog is owned by Sri Tarun Vijay. He is a nationalist and works for an organization that is closely allied with BJP/RSS combination. Why is his blog hosted by TOI or what message TOI is trying to send by hosting his blog? Pick up TOI print version, do you see any of his article anywhere? The answer is big NO. Why do the web version has the article then? Because a considerable section of TOI visitors flock to his blog, TOI likes to use that traffic, nothing more. As much as I like to read Tarun Vijay, I would rather go to his blog directly than driving traffic to TOI site.

  • 167. Sid said:

    Subramaniyan (#164),
    I am still waiting on that question.
    I saw your response to Kaffir. Following points caught my eye:

    Why we should explore meanings beyond an ordinary person’s understanding about secularism. – We need to. The term ordinary has no significance in definition of the words like democracy or secularism. Because there are people who would like to swear by it, we must know what we are talking about when we are demanding that it is so sacred that is must be placed above questioning.

    Why we should have separate laws not Uniform Civil Code ? – Even Britain has allowed some form of Sharia court in parts of their country. Would you call them practitioner of perverse secularism ?

    I am seriously interested to continue this discussion even when I do not have a lot of time to do that. If any high priest of secularism can continue the debate I would be glad (i.e. besides calling me a hypocrite or right-winger).

  • 168. Malavika said:

    Sid said:

    “Because a considerable section of TOI visitors flock to his blog, TOI likes to use that traffic, nothing more. As much as I like to read Tarun Vijay, I would rather go to his blog directly than driving traffic to TOI site.”

    Similarly Outlook also has ‘web only articles’ which are not printed in the print version for obvious reasons you mentioned. There is no reason to increase their web traffic, instead it helps to partonize and advertize blogs like this and increase their visibility. Suppose this blog has 1.5 lakh unique visitors very month(no harm in hoping!) instead of 1500 it can no longer be ignored.

    ELM can no longer indulge in its usual mischief and Hindu baiting.

  • 169. B Shantanu (author) said:

    @ Malvika: “Suppose this blog has 1.5 lakh unique visitors very month

    Thanks…Not there yet…but hope to..someday soon! :-)

    P.S. I might open a second thread on this to avoid comment overload.

  • 170. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Dear All: Pl limit comments on this thread to the use/abuse of the term “Hindutva Terror”. For the rest, either use the “Search” boxes at the top and bottom of the page to find the relevant thread or try the “Categories” drop-down menu in the right-hand side-bar.

    For a general discussion on Hindutva, Islam etc, pl visit this thread:
    Join the discussion on Islam, Hindutva, Dr Zakir Naik – Part II

    ***

    I have moved KSV Subramanian and Kamaraj’s comments to the above post.

    Pl note that I am travelling with limited internet connectivity for the next few days and may be delayed in moderating and/or responding to comments. Thank you for your patience, understanding and support.

  • 171. Sid said:

    Just to add some discussion here:

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100730/jsp/frontpage/story_12749135.jsp

    Note the last para:
    Attacking Hindu terror works fine for us. But taking on Muslim extremism is a very sensitive issue and so we should be careful. Achuthanandan is sounding like the Bajrang Dal and the central party is backing him,” said a senior CPM MP.

  • 172. B Shantanu (author) said:

    Pl read Sh B Raman Arrests of Some Hindus as Terrorists: Curiouser and Curiouser which concludes:

    …Thus, according to American investigators the LET and Al Qaeda were responsible for the Samjauta Express blast and the HUJI for the Mecca Masjid blast.If the American investigators, who have better sources in Pakistan, are correct, how can our investigators claim that some arrested Hindus were responsible for these incidents?

    Justice and fairplay demand a thorough investigation into the two different versions that have emerged from Indian and American investigators. While the American investigators have blamed the LET, Al Qaeda and the HUJI, Indian investigators have blamed the Abhinav Bharat. Both cannot be correct.

  • 173. GyanP said:

    @Ashish Deodhar

    According to your interpretation, media is not biased. Any bias that a person sees is misplaced. And you also assert that this is done by the ‘Hindu Rightists’.

    Just show you that this perception is shared by outside neutral observers, I am quoting from a book that is written by an American Journalist, who has done extensive research on indigenous cultures around the world. The book’s name is “ORISSA in the CROSSFIRE: Kandhamal Burning” and the author is Brannon Parker.

    Do you remember the Kandhmal riots? I hope you do. That is one incident that inflicted great damage on the image of many Hindu organizations. The media just could not stop itself from reporting the torture that had been inflicted by Tribals and these organizations on the native Christians. But, sadly,the truth lay elsewhere. But that truth was never told by the media. What more proof is required by any person on the complicity of media with ruling power and also with missionaries? This is reported by an outsider, not some Hindu suffering from [i]paranoid cum persecution complex[/i]!

    Oh yes, I here are the original words of the author-

    [quote]”
    Coincidently, a mere two weeks before my arrival in India the tribes of Orissa had gone on the warpath. According to media reports, countless Christian churches were being burnt and worst of all Christians were allegedly being hunted down and killed. The violence had erupted after an 82 year old Hindu Monk dedicated to the
    upliftment of Orissa’s tribespeople had been assassinated in a most brutal manner. The day chosen for his assassination was also seen as an intentional provocation. The day was Janmashtami, the birthday of Lord Krishna; a holiday celebtrated across India. The location of the assassination also caused great anguish to the tribes people. A group of somewhere between 18 to 36 armed men had descended upon a local girls school, lobbing grenades and firing machine guns into the air. The headmistress of the school was gunned down as she attempted to shield the life of her mentor, the 82 year old monk and founder of the school, Swami Lakshmananda Saraswati. A visiting parent
    along with two junior monks were also viciously slaughtered as the young students fled for their lives.
    Orissa was stunned by the violence and the entire State went into mourning.
    Hindus throughout the world were outraged. Yet worst was to come. As a stunned people began to confront the fact that the authorities had failed to protect its citizens, the media began a campaign of calumny. Ignoring the brutal assassination of a beloved
    spiritual leader as the root of the crisis the media began to depict the response to the massacre as the story. Report after report flooded the world media depicting the outraged tribal response as the actions of blood-thirsty criminals and marketers of hate.
    Ignoring the hundreds of years of anguish and the long simmering disputes between the local Kandha tribes people and the Christian converted Pana, the media and political left created an artificial template lambasting the Hindus as the sole perpetrators of the
    violence.
    It was in the midst of this crisis that I arrived in Orissa to investigate the circumstances surrounding the violence. I arrived in Bhuvaneshwar, the capital of Orissa, on September 15, 2008. The monsoon season was in full swing. The worst floods in nearly 70 years washed over the land. The state highway was washed out several
    times and thousands of people were left homeless. Amazingly life went on as usual with very little interruption. I had a couple miraculous escapes as we drove around Orissa crossing bridges only hours before they were swamped by the swollen rivers of the region.
    During my 5 weeks in Orissa I met with many people on all sides of the issue.
    Most people were forthright and clear about the issues plaguing the people. Many of the people, in fact, most of the people I met with had excellent solutions to the problems at hand. However the violence and disparity experienced by the people of Orissa and India at large has created a kind of chaos and instability. Thus India moves from one
    crisis to the other. The greatest obstacle in the way of India’s progress is the state of denial that is endemic to country. Without understanding the true foundation of the problem it is almost impossible to provide any solution. The truth is most often buried
    and manipulated by vested interests. Any effort to reveal the truth is highlighted as a ‘communal’ or ‘prejudiced’ effort. Victims are ignored and culprits are emboldened as the various political players entrench themselves in the suffering of the people. India’s
    people are categorized and cataloged and thus divided against themselves by language, religion, ethnicity, caste and clan. Government benefits are given out and fought over.
    Many take advantage of government largesse based upon their greed as the truly needy are left on the way side. India’s tribal people have been left far behind as some of India’s non-tribal citizens expertly and criminally manipulate the system. In this way tribal lands and rights are being accessed by non-tribals to the disadvantage of the
    tribals. Long embittered, India’s tribes are only now attempting to regain lost ground.
    Their struggle has been a long one and is ongoing.
    In this report I have attempted to present the facts as they happened.”[/quote]

    The book is available as a free download on lulu.com, the links is given below-

    http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/orissa-in-the-crossfire-kandhamal-burning/6046402

    The author above talks about ‘India’s state of denial’. I think till the time our people are suffering from this mental state, it is difficult to find a solution.

  • 174. GyanP said:

    The case of so-called Hindu terror gets curiouser and curiouser. The TOI reports -

    “Contrary to Centre’s growing estimate that alleged Hindu extremists carried out the May 2007 Mecca Mosque blast in Hyderabad, the United States and the United Nations have held the Pakistan-based Harkat-ul-Jihad Islami (HuJI) responsible for it. ”

    and,

    “The world body has also listed a number of terror attacks which were carried out by HuJI. Besides the Mecca Masjid blast, these include the twin explosions in Hyderabad in August 2007 and suicide bombing of the US Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, in March 2006 among others.”

    the link is here-

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/HuJI-ban-gives-new-twist-to-Mecca-Masjid-blast-case/articleshow/6272245.cms

  • 175. Anupam said:

    @Gyanp

    #174 that justifies the title of the post. Of course, media will not cover this with same vigor. Will outlook render an apology for jumping the gun.

  • 176. Sid said:

    @Anupam (#175),
    Will outlook render an apology for jumping the gun.
    Why would they offer any apology? A lot of people still buy outlook and a lot of people who do not like outlook still drive traffic to their websites. What would change if a few “internet Hindus” feel offended?

  • 177. Anupam said:

    @Sid,
    well said..by the way ..I recently found out that Sagarika Ghose invented the term Internet Hindus and she feels they hound her..:)

  • 178. Moderator said:

    Dear All: To avoid comment overload on this thread, I am opening a second thread on this topic here.

    Please continue the discussion on the new thread…This thread will continue to remain on the blog.
    Thanks.