On Puritanism, Sex Addicts and Temples

Just finished reading Oh, But You Do Get It Wrong! by Aditi Banerjee …a commendable analysis of Wendy Donger’s prejudices and liberties with truth. I’m reproducing excerpts below. The full article is also available for download from my Docs and Slides widget on the Links page.

*** Excerpts from “Oh, But You Do Get It Wrong!” ***

…Defamation of Critics

The introduction to the interview begins with a misleading quote:

“[Doniger] has continued to infuriate the Hindutva brigade with her unorthodox views on Hinduism and its sacred texts, earning for herself the epithet: “crude, lewd and very rude in the hallowed portals of Sanskrit academics.”

The quote attributed to the “Hindutva brigade” is actually from the BBC web site…

The false attribution of this quote to the “Hindutva brigade” sets the tone for the rest of the interview—heaping blame on a nebulous, undefined, straw man “Hindutva Internet Brigade” for the whole continuum of criticism of Doniger’s work—criticism that has come mostly from moderate and liberal Hindus, secularists, non-Hindu scholars and even one prominent Harvard Indologist who is not known for being friendly towards Hindus. Rather than confront the actual criticisms, Doniger pretends that her only critics are Hindu extremists, and by rebuking this “enemy” she tries to deflect any criticism of her work.

.

Just as some politicians resort to picking on their weakest critic to discredit all of their critics, Doniger picks one stray comment on the Amazon web site to characterize all of her critics—when asked to describe the Hindu-American response to her book, Doniger exclaims, “My favourite one on Amazon accuses me of being a Christian fundamentalist and my book a defence of Christianity against Hinduism. And of course, I’m not a Christian, I’m a Jew!”

…Doniger’s refusal to address her critics only worsens as the interview proceeds. When asked why Hindus object to her writings, she flippantly replies:

You’ll have to ask them why. It doesn’t seem to me to have much to do with the book. They don’t say, “Look here, you said this on page 200, and that’s a terrible thing to say.” Instead, they say things not related to the book: you hate Hindus, you are sex-obsessed, you don’t know anything about the Hindus, you got it all wrong.

This is a bald lie. The first Part of the book, Invading the Sacred, documents and refutes dozens of statements by Doniger…

…Moreover, the idea that “it’s considered unseemly in the conservative Hindu view for a woman to talk about sex–that’s something men talk about among themselves” is another blatantly false stereotype by Doniger.

Doniger’s contention that traditional Hindu women are not allowed to talk about sex is directly refuted by the celebrated account of the debate between Ubhaya-Bharati and Adi Shankara, one of the great intellects of the world, sage from the 8th Century CE, and father of Advaita Vedanta as known today. Adi Shankara was challenged to a debate by Mandana Misra, a learned and well-known Purva Mimamsa scholar. They agreed that Mandana’s wife, Ubhaya-Bharati, a renowned scholar in her own right, would be the referee and that the loser of the debate would become the disciple of the winner. After debating for many days, Mandana Misra lost and was about to become the disciple of Adi Shankara. However, Ubhaya-Bharati then challenged Adi Shankara to debate her, on the grounds that since she and her husband were one person upon being married, he would have to defeat both of them in order to win the debate.

Adi Shankara accepted her challenge. The debate went well for Adi Shankara until Ubhaya-Bharati began posing intricate questions on the science of erotics (well-accepted, in the appropriate context, as a topic of sacred discourse and knowledge in Hinduism). If it was “considered unseemly” per traditional Hinduism for women to talk about sex, the official version of the Shankara Digvijaya (accepted as authentic by the Sringeri Shankaracharya Matha) would never have mentioned Ubhaya-Bharati’s questioning of Adi Shankara. (Adi Shankara ended up satisfactorily answering the questions on eroticism, and Ubhaya-Bharati accepted her defeat.)

There is also the celebrated account given in the Yoga Vasistha of Queen Chudalai, an advanced yogini, who initiates her husband, King Sikhidvaja, as her disciple; she tests his renunciation repeatedly and instructs him on the proper attitude towards sexual union and sensual pleasure. Similarly, the famous Tripura Rahasya narrates Princess Hemalata’s initiation of her husband, Prince Hemachuda, into the secrets of samadhi and moksha. Finally, the Mahabharata recounts the famous interaction between Arjuna and Urvashi—when Arjuna rejected Urvashi’s frank invitation for sexual union, she pronounced the following curse: “Since thou disregardest a woman come to thy mansion … of her own motion—a woman, besides, who is pierced by the shafts of Kama, therefore, O Partha, thou shalt have to pass thy time among females … destitute of manhood and scorned as a eunuch.”

As these examples show, not only were women allowed to discuss sex, they had the authority and scriptural and social standing to challenge and teach the greatest of sages and the most royal of men with respect to all subject matters, including sex and eroticism.

Of course, it is unfortunate that the puritanical mores of Victorian British rule have corrupted modern Hindu society, restricting the open acceptance of sex and sexuality. However, the holistic acceptance of sex and sexuality (without gender or orientation bias) inherent to Hinduism is still vibrant and alive in traditional Hinduism.

Apart from unfairly stereotyping and insulting her critics, most of the rest of the interview concerns Doniger’s take on the Valmiki Ramayana.

The “Interpolation” of Ravana’s Curse

According to Doniger:

Things were added on in Ramayana’s first and seventh book later on. For instance, in the seventh book we have a story long before the story of Rama and Sita about how Ravana raped one of the great apsaras, Rambha … [Her husband] curses Ravana that if he ever touches a woman against her will, his head will shatter into a thousand pieces. So that story is then told in the Ramayana to explain why Ravana didn’t force himself on Sita despite keeping her in his house all those years. In the earlier Ramayana, there’s nothing about this … This is a later idea that creeps in.”

It is incorrect for Doniger to say that the curse upon Ravana was a “later idea that [crept in]” to explain Ravana’s unwillingness to rape Sita. The relevant incident is found in Book 6 (Yuddha Kanda), almost universally recognized as part of the original Valmiki Ramayana. (It is the first part of Book 1 (Bala Kanda) and all of Book 7 (Uttara Kanda) that are, debatably, later interpolations.)

The account is given by Ravana in Sarga (Canto) 13 of Book 6 (Yuddha Kanda):

Once I beheld (a celestial nymph) Punjikasthala (by name) … She was stripped of her garment and ravished by me. She then reached the abode of Brahma … Highly enraged, the creator forthwith addressed the following words to me: “If you (happen to) violate any other woman hence forward, your head will be forthwith split into a hundred pieces; there is no doubt about it.” Hence, afraid (as I am) of his curse, I do not violently put Sita, a princess of the Videha territory, on my charming bed by force. [3]

There is an account of Ravana’s rape of Rambha in Book 7 (Uttara Kanda)—but it is the incident recounted in Book 6 (accepted as part of the original Valmiki Ramayana) that is explicitly offered as the reason why Ravana did not rape Sita. The effect of the rape of Rambha is more generic: “[Ravana] felt inclined no more to copulate with women who were unwilling to approach him.” [4]

This is not mere nitpicking—the citation of the rape of Punjikasthala in Book 6 discredits Doniger’s contention that the curse on Ravana was a later interpolation interjected to conveniently explain why Ravana never raped Sita.

Rama as a “Sex-Addict”

According to Doniger, the concept of a “sex-addict” is introduced into the Valmiki Ramayana by Lakshmana calling Dasaratha kama-sakta, which she defines as “hopelessly attached to lust.”

It is not clear where Doniger picks up the term ‘kama-sakta’—the term does not appear upon a search of the text of the Valmiki Ramayana as given in the Titus online database, which is based on the following version of the text: G.H. Bhatt e.a., The Valmiki Ramayana, (Baroda 1960-1975), prepared by Muneo Tokunaga, March 12, 1993 (adaptations by John D. Smith, Cambridge, 1995.)

Further, neither the term nor its variants appear in the most logical place where Lakshmana would have used the words to describe Dasaratha, the passage in Book 2 (Ayodhya Kanda) when Lakshmana disparages the character of Dasaratha for banishing Rama. The relevant phrases that Lakshmana uses here are the following: nripah vipariitasheha (king with perverted mind), pradharshhitaH vishhayaiH (who is outraged by sensual enjoyments) and samanimadhaH (who is possessed of passion). [5] None of these terms translates even remotely as “sex addict / addiction”. Addiction is something more than just being overcome by lust: addiction is a “compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance…characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal.” [6]

However, for the sake of argument, I will give the benefit of the doubt to Doniger and assume that the term kama-sakta has been used by Lakshmana to describe Dasaratha in the Valmiki-Ramayana. That in and of itself does not imply that Dasaratha was “hopelessly addicted to lust.” Kama-sakta simply means an attachment (sakta) to desire (kama). Kama does not itself necessarily refer to sexual desire, or even erotic or romantic desire. Dasaratha’s reluctance to allow Rama to serve as guard over Vishwamitra’s yajna, for example, or Lakshmana’s unwillingness to be parted from Rama, could equally be characterized as kama-sakta. To assume it to mean “attachment to lust” is another in a pattern of Doniger’s ex-cathedra translations in variance with traditional Sanskrit nirukta (etymology) for which she has been repudiated before.

It has been brought to my attention that, subsequent to the original interview, as published in print and on this website, Doniger’s statements were corrected to carry the following version of Doniger’s quote on October 20: “Lakshman is the one who actually says it. He says the king is hopelessly attached to sensual objects. But Rama himself says (at 2.47.8) that the king is kama-atma, entirely consumed by kama.” The deletion of the term kama-sakta and the addition of the new reference is not explained, other than as a “typo”.

To offer Doniger leeway that she almost never offers her critics, I will accept the “corrected” statement—but her argument still fails. The relevant reference—found in Sarga 53 of the Gita Press, Gorakhpur version and in Sarga 47 of the Titus database version (mentioned above)—is part of a scene where Rama reminisces about his father to Lakshmana during the first night of his banishment from Ayodhya. Here is the exact reference:

anaathaH caiva vRiddhaH ca mayaa caiva vinaakRitaH | kim kariSyati kaama aatmaa kaikeyyaa vasham aagataH ||

vRiddhascha (aged); anaathashcha ((and therefore) helpless); mayaarinaacha (deprived of my presence); kim karishhyati (what will he do); kRitaH (dominated as he is); kaamaatmaa (by his passion (for Kaikeyi)); aagataH (and who has fallen); kaikeyiivasham (into clutches of Kaikeyi).

“Aged and (therefore) helpless, deprived of my presence, what will he do, dominated as he is by his passion for Kaikeyi and who has fallen into the clutches of Kaikeyi.”

As with the phrases described above (uttered by Lakshmana in anger), Kama-atma does not necessarily mean “entirely consumed by kama.” For example, the illustrious commentary on the Ramayana by Sivasahaya, Raamayana Siromani¸ gives the following example of using the term kama-atma in a non-sexual context: kaama aathmaa: kaama – abhishEka vishayiNi ichchhaa (desiring the matter of crowning) aathmaa – aathmani manasyEva yasya sah (one who had this in mind)—i.e., “the king who desired in his mind the crowning [of Rama].” [7]

In any case, it is not necessary to get entangled into the technicality of semantics to challenge Doniger’s central thesis, which is summarized in the following excerpt from the interview:

You also suggest that because Rama is afraid of turning into a sex addict like his father, he throws Sita out after enjoying sex with her?

You have a chapter in Valmiki’s Ramayana where Rama was so happy with Sita, they drank wine together, they were alone, enjoying themselves in every way, indulging in various ways, not just the sexual act. And in the very next chapter he says I’ve got to throw you out. So I’m suggesting: what is the connection between those two things? And what does it mean that Rama knows that Dasaratha, his father, disgraced himself because of his attachment to his young and beautiful wife. So I’m taking pieces of the Ramayana and putting them together and saying these are not disconnected.

So you are saying his fear of following in his father’s footsteps is making him betray his own sexuality?

Yes, I am. Or even of being perceived that way.

Note the internal contradiction in Doniger’s position—her characterization of Rama hinges on a passage found in Book 7 (Uttara Kanda), and she has elsewhere in the interview dismissed that same Book 7 as a later interpolation!

In any event, the passage describing Rama and Sita’s “indulgence” is from Sarga 42 of Book 7 (Uttara Kanda), where Rama and Sita are enjoying their reunion after Sita’s abduction. As described therein, during this period of two winters (i.e., two years, although in some versions, an additional half-shloka is included providing that this interlude lasted 10,000 years), Rama and Sita would spend the second half of every day together in Rama’s Ashoka-grove, enjoying heavenly music and dance and partaking of gourmet food and intoxicating drinks. Rama and Sita are compared to other divine couples:

Taking in his hand the pure nectar of flowers as intoxicating as the Maireyaka wine, Sri Rama … made Sri Sita drink it, just as Indra does Sachi … Seated in the company of the celebrated Sita, [Rama] shone with splendour like Vasishta seated along with Arundhati. Sri Rama, steeped in joy like gods, afforded delight thus day after day to … Sita, who resembled a divine damsel. [8]

Doniger conveniently leaves out the fact that it is in this chapter that Rama discovers that Sita is pregnant. Delighted at this revelation, Rama asks her to tell him which desire of hers he should fulfil. This is Sita’s response: “O Raghava! I wish to visit the holy penance-groves and to stay, O Lord!, at the feet of sages … living on the banks of the Ganga … This is my greatest wish that I should stay even for one night in the penance-grove of those who live only on fruits and (edible) roots.” [9] Rama readily acquiesces to this wish, promising that she will be taken for a visit there the very next day.

Doniger claims that “in the very next chapter [Rama] says [to Sita] I’ve got to throw you out.” This is another totally false statement by Doniger. It is in Sarga 45 (after two intervening sargas / chapters, wherein Rama learns of the negative gossip surrounding Sita and thus decides to banish her) that Rama orders Lakshmana to take Sita to the forest and leave her there. This is just one more instance of Doniger’s casual disregard of the facts, unbecoming of a distinguished professor with a named chair at the University of Chicago.

Of course, it is the two sargas / chapters that Doniger skips over in her “alternative” narrative that provide the reason for Rama banishing Sita: Rama is informed that he is being rebuked by the people of Ayodhya as follows: “Why does not Sri Rama censure [Sita], who formerly had been forcibly carried away by Ravana? … Such conduct of our wives shall have to be suffered by us also, since whatever a king does, the subjects follow.” [10] The pernicious rumours are about Sita’s chastity / purity, not about Rama’s excessive lust.

When this gossip is confirmed by others, Rama summons his brothers to him, and informs them of his decision to leave Sita, providing the following explanation for his decision: “As long as the word of infamy circulates, so long one does fall in the lower regions (hell). Infamy is censured even by the gods and fame gains credence in the world.” [11] It is the fear of losing his good name (as the result of the infamy surrounding Sita’s chastity by the gossip-mongers of Ayodhya) that impels Rama, not fear of being chastised as a sex-addict.

Nowhere is it mentioned that Rama feared he might fall victim to the “vice” of sex and that he therefore abandoned Sita – this again appears to be an example of the kind of fanciful creation for which Doniger and many of her students, now academicians at leading American universities, have become well-known. There is no connotation of illicit or excessive indulgence in the description of Rama and Sita’s blissful interlude together in Sarga 42—to the contrary, Rama and Sita are depicted as a divine couple with the dignity and radiance of Indra and Sachi, Vasishta and Arundhati. Rama is full of tenderness for Sita upon discovering her pregnancy. It clearly breaks his heart to send Sita away—after giving Lakshmana the command, “[Rama] the noble one with His eyes closed, taking leave of His brothers, entered His own apartment, with his heart agitated by sorrow, deeply sighed as an elephant.” [12]

Construction of Hindu Temples

Doniger suggests that Hindus did not have a prominent temple-building movement—because building temples requires “a lot of money, land, a whole system of building temples, which the Hindus did not have at first”—until the Bhakti movement gathered momentum “to organize Rama or Shiva worship.” She makes a superfluous reference to the fact that the Kama Sutra does not discuss temple worship—one wonders why the Kama Sutra would be a relevant reference for discussion of temple construction…

This is really the topic for another article, but it is worth quickly noting here that the Sathapatha Brahmana portion of the Shukla Yajur Veda, dating back to at least 1500 BCE, describes a special form of tabernacle, distinct from the Agni-shala of the household, for which a special fire-priest, the Agnidhra, was designated. Through the kindling of the fire, the tabernacle became the dwelling place of the Vishvedevas (all the gods). This is a prototype for later Hindu temples, where icons replaced the sacred fire as the focus of worship. In other words, if one wants to be polemical, one can definitely argue that the genesis of formal temple construction vidhis – rules and methods – certainly pre-dates the advent of Buddhism.

Further, details of (at least Vaishnava) temple construction, the consecration of images for worship, and the actual procedures and rituals for temple worship are set forth in the ancient Vaikhanasa and Paancharatra Agamas. The Vaikhanasa Agama dates back to at least the 3rd or 4th century CE, and its Kriyaa Paadha discusses temple construction and image consecration while its Charyaa Padhaa focuses on the associated rituals of worship.

There are many examples of temples from these ancient times. A few are quickly identified here: The early phase of Chalukyan temple building began in the last quarter of the 6th century and resulted in many cave temples, including a Vaishnava temple dating back to 578 CE. The second phase of Chalukyan temple building at Aihole, celebrated as one of the cradles of Indian temple architecture, dates back to approximately 600 CE. Similarly, the Pallavas constructed rock-cut temples dating from 610–690 AD and structural temples between 690–900 AD, including the rock-cut temples at Mahabalipuram, the Kailasanatha temple in Kanchipuram, and the Shore Temple built by Narasimhavarman II.

Related Posts:

Of Niti, Nyaya, Bhagavad-Gita and Misrepresentations

On Marayada Purushottam, Sita Mata, Agni Pariksha and Vaali Vadh

A rebuttal to Abul Kasem – “Women in Hinduism” by R Maliger

The Curious Case of the “Kidipede Ramayana”

“Three Hundred Ramayanas” & “The Jewel of Medina”

Has Sh Nariman really read the Padma Purana?

B Shantanu

Political Activist, Blogger, Advisor to start-ups, Seed investor. One time VC and ex-Diplomat. Failed mushroom farmer; ex Radio Jockey. Currently involved in Reclaiming India - One Step at a Time.

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31 Responses

  1. Dirt Digger says:

    This is an example where Hindoos are losers whichever course of action we choose.
    Choose to ignore and more like Doniger will pop up.
    Choose to accept and fight our “secular” media will portray as being fundamentalists who will not accept alternate views of history.

  2. Kaffir says:

    Dirt Digger, there’s a third option – deconstructing the illogical arguments in a cool and calm manner using logic (just like the above post), and let the open-minded readers decide for themselves. Trust me, even at the cost of incorrectly being labeled as a “fundamentalist”, there are people awakening to the media’s “secular” hatchet-job and writing about such issues. Satyamev jayate.

  3. Dirt Digger says:

    Kaffir,
    Yup you are right. There’s another way as well. Putting lawsuits on some of these “secular” monkeys to make them shut up. Jai Bharat!

  4. Patriot says:

    Terrific rebuttal by Aditi – thanks for posting it here, Shantanu.

    But, this part in the article made me laugh:
    “Of course, it is unfortunate that the puritanical mores of Victorian British rule have corrupted modern Hindu society, restricting the open acceptance of sex and sexuality. However, the holistic acceptance of sex and sexuality (without gender or orientation bias) inherent to Hinduism is still vibrant and alive in traditional Hinduism.”

    I had written something exactly like the above on another post, which had Incognito bursting into flames and descending into vile personal abuse …… and, here it is again, from a respected author defending hindu mores.

    Ah, the delicious irony of it all.

  5. Incognito says:

    5->>>”I had written something exactly like the above on another post, which had Incognito bursting into flames and descending into vile personal abuse ……

    Exactly like what Ms Banerjee writes – “ the holistic acceptance of sex and sexuality (without gender or orientation bias) inherent to Hinduism is still vibrant and alive in traditional Hinduism” ?

    Did you write exactly like that ?

    Ms Banerjee’s reference is like that of a surgeon using a knife to remove a foreign object from a living body. While your act was like that of a killer pushing a knife deep into a living body seeking its death.

    Personal abuse is- “ is not Lord Shiva our greatest druggie? The first Hippie? Is Lord Indra not a Don Juan and one who likes alcohol a lot? Who are the heavenly apsaras? Ladies of the court? . your words.

    https://satyameva-jayate.org/2009/06/11/taliban-in-india/#comment-34386

    Irony is that you are unable to appreciate yourself.
    As a person who could be worthy of your anscestors, yet.

  6. Patriot says:

    “Ms Banerjee’s reference is like that of a surgeon using a knife to remove a foreign object from a living body. While your act was like that of a killer pushing a knife deep into a living body seeking its death.”

    Ho hum …. we see what we want to see. Universal failing, I guess (including mine)

  7. Patriot says:

    ““ is not Lord Shiva our greatest druggie? The first Hippie? Is Lord Indra not a Don Juan and one who likes alcohol a lot? Who are the heavenly apsaras? Ladies of the court? . your words. ”

    Still stand by the above – have not read anything to the contrary yet.

  8. Patriot says:

    And, besides that selective quote above – this is what I had written:

    “Victorian England made us into prudes – and we continue to uphold *their* tradition, while having forgotten our true roots? Meanwhile, the English have long given up their Victorian mores!”

    Which had poor Icognito descend into paroxysms of rage and name-calling.

  9. Kaffir says:

    =>
    “Still stand by the above – have not read anything to the contrary yet.”
    =>

    I believe I may have mentioned something to the contrary – that Lord Shiva was devoted to his wife, was monogamous and never went into the arms of another, which is quite contrary to the hippie belief/practice of free love and having multiple partners. Just using one point of similarity does not a hippie make, but I doubt that with your agenda of bringing down all religions, you’ll see the light – so carry on Dawkins-wannabe. 🙂

  10. Incognito says:

    8- >>>“Still stand by the above – have not read anything to the contrary yet.

    Then what rationale have indians to criticize Wendy Doniger ?

    Not reading anything, to the contrary or otherwise, is no justification to indulge in Wendyisque depravity.

    Freedom of expression comes with responsibility. It is like knife in the hands of a person. In the hands of one irresponsible or contrary, it can turn deadly.

    Further, such instances as this poses questions to the wider audience. Is it necessary to tolerate adharma in the guise of freedom of expression ?

    King Shantanu allowed his attachment to sensual desires to cloud his sense of dharma which triggered a chain of events that culminated in the cataclysm of Kurukshetra.

    In a ‘moderated’ blog such as this, when comments such as # 8 are allowed to be expressed repeatedly, without being moderated or even replied to by the moderator, it may lead to the conclusion, correct or otherwise, that the moderator approves of such comments.

    Would it then be appropriate for a shiva bhakta who feels outraged at the denigration indulged in here, to explore ways, including the legal one ?

    Are indians here so ignorant of their culture that they allow speculation, in such contrary manner, of icons widely respected in india throughout millenniums and upon whom most of indian culture is based ? Are indians so much influenced by the western discourse that they adopt Wendy’s ways consciously or unknowingly, even while they criticise her ?

    No. They should rightly give guru dakshina to Wendy for teaching them her way- one quite different from the way of their own anscestors.

    And her ‘way’, as demonstrated so far in her career, is asatyameva jayate.

  11. संदीप नारायण शेळके says:

    Criticism is always good for improvement and development. But when you criticise the negative it will definitely become more negative and lastly turn violent.
    The best way to keep check of negative powers is not to respond them. But that doesn’t mean we should stop educating and improving the good.
    Ms. Dongier seems to have Hindu Phobia like Islam has. No matter this country and its Dharma has fought bravely in difficult times and the time approaching is the best to flourish. So let these idiots bark, and we should carry on our journey to success.

    Jai Hind!

  12. B Shantanu says:

    @ Incognito: I prefer not to respond to comments that are intended to provoke rather than promote understanding.

    As for “…it may lead to the conclusion, correct or otherwise, that the moderator approves of such comments“, I am certain my readers are mature enough to draw their own conclusion.

    Would it then be appropriate for a shiva bhakta who feels outraged at the denigration indulged in here, to explore ways, including the legal one ?

    It would only be appropriate if the Shiva-Bhakta has not been given the opportunity to respond or has been barred from expressing his/her point of view here.

    Are indians here so ignorant of their culture that they allow speculation, in such contrary manner, of icons widely respected in india throughout millenniums and upon whom most of indian culture is based?

    Incognito: If this is your main point, then we have bigger (and more deadlier) fish swimming in these waters than one comment (or commentator) on this blog…Are you considering taking legal action against Prof Wendy Doniger? How about M F Husain?

  13. B Shantanu says:

    Incognito: In response to your question, “such instances as this poses questions to the wider audience. Is it necessary to tolerate adharma in the guise of freedom of expression?”, I am reproducing this comment from another post that was inspired by Harshit:

    – A Sanaatan dharmi…believes that there can be different perceptions of the same “truth”.

    – Every individual has every right to follow and develop (intellectually not by force) his own perception of this fundamental reality.

    – But the individual is not bound to believe that the perception of the ‘other’ is naturally equal to his own perception.

    – The difference lies the manner in which you go about developing and propagating your perception. Is it in the form of healthy, spiritual debates or by use of sword or inducements or disrespect/denigration of other’s perception?

    – if the ‘other’ wants to continue believing in his own perception, (Sanaatan Dharmi)…willingly accepts his freedom and right to do so

    But “if the other’s perception of reality says that you should be killed if you don’t convert to his own perception of reality”, I think this is what could be called a righteous war.

    and finally, “…even if sanaatan dharma considers it a falsehood, it would still respect the right of that individual to excel in his falsehood…” but will not accept violent imposition of that falsehood on others.

  14. kk says:

    Shantanu,

    Take a look:

    My interview with Wendy Doniger By Dr. Devdutt Pattanaik

  15. B Shantanu says:

    Thanks KK

  16. संदीप नारायण शेळके says:

    @KK
    I gone through the interview and somewhere felt that Dr. Pattanaikji is being carried away by the explanation of Hinduism by westerners. I mean to say westerners explanation can not be considered as authentic. There are various reasons to say that.
    Just an example:
    If you smell the (original) sandalwood what do you feel? and then you smell some perfume made out of some chemicals and little extract of sandalwood (without caring for the consequences on human body by using it) what do you feel?

    Answer is pretty simple that the earlier one has natural fragrance without any harm to your body unlike later one. So here everyone who wants to study Hinduism needs to find authentic and true source and not the contaminated one.

    I think we should have an organization which shall be carrying out detailed scrutiny of writings by anyone in favour or against Hinduism. And then should publish the genuine opinion to make sure that no gets carried away by the writers like Ms. Wendy Doniger.

    On that interview someone named a.b. left a comment (good explanation for not considering the Doniger like authors as authentic). such people can be the part of our organization and not the fanatics.

    Jai Hind!

  17. Patriot says:

    @ Kaffir –

    Just using one point of similarity does not a hippie make

    I was thinking of the most significant fact of Shiva to call him a hippie – that he had no love for material things and that he had renounced all worldly stuff – the image of Shiva dressed in a loin cloth, smeared with ashes, with matter hair, smoking his chillum and meditating on the transcendental – can you have a more powerful image of a hippie?

    Unfortunate that you got caught up with just the first phrase.

    I doubt that with your agenda of bringing down all religions, you’ll see the light – so carry on Dawkins-wannabe

    I do see the light – it is just not the same one that you see! And, Richard-Dawkins-wannabe? You give me too much credit. 🙂

  18. Patriot says:

    @ Kaffir –

    that Lord Shiva was devoted to his wife, was monogamous and never went into the arms of another, which is quite contrary to the hippie belief/practice of free love and having multiple partners

    I do think that it is you who is focused on a single characteristic of the “hippie culture” – the free love angle – and use that to judge all hippies!

    The key thing about the Hippie culture and the 60’s, I guess, was that it was a counter-revolution of sorts – against wars, against tradition, against imperialism, against restrictions and for freedom of the individual. The Hippie was not a traditionalist.

    And, neither was Shiva – his father-in-law had such a hard time adjusting to him! And, when Uma drags him to this great yagna, that poor man is even insulted by his father-in-law for not being bedecked in riches, etc …. and, you think he was not a Hippie? He did not even care as to what his father-in-law thought?!!!!

    Cheers

  19. Kaffir says:

    =>
    “I was thinking of the most significant fact of Shiva to call him a hippie – that he had no love for material things and that he had renounced all worldly stuff – the image of Shiva dressed in a loin cloth, smeared with ashes, with matter hair, smoking his chillum and meditating on the transcendental – can you have a more powerful image of a hippie?”
    =>

    Right. All that patchouli, incense, tie-died shirts, marijuana, drugs and drug paraphernalia necessary for their use, bead curtains, tapes and records, record player, guitar and other material stuff that hippies wear and use that sets them apart from non-hippies, are not material things.

    =>
    The key thing about the Hippie culture and the 60’s, I guess, was that it was a counter-revolution of sorts – against wars, against tradition, against imperialism, against restrictions and for freedom of the individual. The Hippie was not a traditionalist.
    =>

    Marrying one woman and remaining monogamous is, of course, against tradition. And what other traditions did Lord Shiva break?

    You’re making a very flimsy case here. And I’m not the one caught up in one statement – I’m going by the words that you used.

    =>
    And, neither was Shiva – his father-in-law had such a hard time adjusting to him!
    =>
    So what? What were the reasons for his f-i-l having a hard time adjusting to him? And does that make one a hippie? Are all hippies mal-adjusts with their f-i-l’s?

  20. kk says:

    Sandeep,

    I think we should have an organization which shall be carrying out detailed scrutiny of writings by anyone in favour or against Hinduism. And then should publish the genuine opinion to make sure that no gets carried away by the writers like Ms. Wendy Doniger.

    I don’t know what genuine opinion is. 🙂 Just because we don’t like somebody’s opinion doesn’t make it any less genuine from the presenter’s perspective. And I don’t think you can regulate opinions with an organization scrutinizing every work.

    Scholarly work should be restricted to halls of the academia and played by scientific method. Answer to biased opinions is good academic scholarship and presenting facts as is. There is no point getting offended by other’s opinions. Anyone and his brother can have opinions.

    Adhering to scientific method doesn’t guarantee that there won’t be mistakes or fraudulent publications. But it ensures that such results get eliminated in the due course of time.

    Yeah, I concede that it is not easy to adhere or strictly apply scientific method historical/cultural interpretations since it is more subjective but the least we can do is to leave it to academicians.

    Just my opinion. 🙂 🙂

  21. Incognito says:

    13->>>“I prefer not to respond to comments that are intended to provoke rather than promote understanding.

    But should you allow your blog to be used to push for distortion of indian concepts.

    >>>“I am certain my readers are mature enough to draw their own conclusion.

    People change.
    The moderator of this blog also changes his outlook over time, doesn’t he ?

    Besides, even in a marital relationship or friendship, it is over-optimistic to expect complete understanding of one by another.

    Further, many new people visit this blog and may form conclusions on what they find here without having previous knowledge of the moderator’s views.

    >>>>“It would only be appropriate if the Shiva-Bhakta has not been given the opportunity to respond …

    Is it only the responsibility of a shiva bhakta to respond to such misportrayals ?

    Is it really the responsibility of Aditi Banerjees to respond to Wendy Donigers of this world ?

    Don’t those who provide the wendy donigers with the platform for indulging in their mischief have no responsibility ?

    >>>“Are you considering taking legal action against Prof Wendy Doniger? How about M F Husain?

    Anybody who feels that injustice is being done should raise his/her voice in protest. In the ways they consider appropriate.

    bharatiya samskriti provides sufficient guidance on discerning righteousness and on responding to unrighteousness.

    14- >>>“A Sanaatan dharmi … believes that there can be different perceptions of the same “truth”.

    Yes, there can be different perceptions.
    But every such perception need not be of ‘the same’ or of ‘truth’.

    Deliberate misconstruction such as “greatest druggie, The first Hippie, smoking his chillum …” are not any perception of truth about shiva.

    The millions of people who derive daily inspiration from the concept of shiva DO NOT do so on these terms.
    In fact they do so for the exact opposite- the transcending of all materialistic and sensual attachments, symbolised by shiva.

    Attempts to reverse this fact should be recognised as deliberate mischief rather than considered as ‘alternate perception’.

    12->>>“The best way to keep check of negative powers is not to respond them.

    What is right in one instance may not be so in another.

    Apart from being instance-specific, it also depends on the nature of the person involved.

    For example, what is correct response for Yudhisthir differs from that for Bhima.

    It would not be appropriate for Yudhisthir to respond in a way that is appropriate for Bhima, likewise vice-versa.

    karma, svadharma are different for different people, and in different instances.

    By the way, bharatiya darshana recognises people such as wendy donigers and ‘patriots’ also as pervaded by, and manifestations of, the same supreme reality brahma that manifests in Mata Amritanandamayi and in the common man.

    That the former two, among many others today, are ignorant of themselves is no reason to not respond to their attempts at malicious mischief.

    dhanyavaad

  22. Kaffir says:

    =>
    Deliberate misconstruction such as “greatest druggie, The first Hippie, smoking his chillum …” are not any perception of truth about shiva.
    =>

    Incognito, if a person chooses to use the phrases “greatest druggie, first hippie” to describe Lord Shiva instead of his great sacrifice and compassionate act of drinking the halaahal, then that says a lot more about that person’s state of mind and what he picks from Shiva’s life and acts to represent him, than about Lord Shiva. Perhaps a little compassion towards such people is necessary?

  23. Incognito says:

    23->>>“Perhaps a little compassion towards such people is necessary?”

    compassion, towards the brahman , that pervades everything in the universe ?

    towards the person’s outlook, that is impermanent ?

    towards his sense of self, that is unaffected by his outlook ?

    towards his physical body, that is eitherways unconcerned ?

    namaste

  24. B Shantanu says:

    Excerpts from Wendy Doniger is a Syndrome by Sandeep:

    …But it is truly amazing how Doniger manages to brand even serious and erudite scholars who criticize her work as fanatics, Hindutva agents, right-wingers and BJP members. This form of branding is, unless I’m mistaken, a tactic perfected by the Communists: recall Lenin’s famous technique of “sticking the convict badge” on his opponents. Of course, I don’t imply that Doniger is a Communist but the tactic is eerily familiar.

    Indology was flawed from the start

    Wendy Doniger’s credentials are pretty hoary–with numerous seminars and papers and books and publications in scholarly journals to her credit. As an Indology expert and scholar, she has peer-reviewed other scholarly work but has consistently shown intolerance towards criticism of her work by (mostly) Indian scholars. As Rajiv Malhotra and others have shown on several occasions, this phenomenon owes to an imbalance in the academic narrative and is fundamentally about power.

    The element of power dates back to the founding days where entire departments of Indology, Sanskrit, and Oriental studies were liberally funded by the British colonial administration. They were liberally funded because British imperialism needed these Indologists to interpret the local customs and laws that in turn helped them shape policies to rule over the natives (sic). Indologists were naturally obliged to keep their masters happy. From the time of William Jones, who is justifiably called the father of (modern) Indology right up to the likes of Wendy Doniger and Michael Witzel, the research, narrative, and interpretation was, unsurprisingly, colonial in both colour and flavour–Eurocentric, if you will. It was not so much from a spirit of free and objective inquiry that research in Indology progressed but more to meet political and missionary ends. This trend continues today where new scholarly papers and books are written with an express intent to “reinterpret” or provide an “alternative interpretation” of Indian mythology, the Vedas, Puranas, symbolism, sages, Gods, and Goddesses.

    It is therefore no coincidence–or any sinister cabal at work–that almost all of these scholarly works meet with such intense criticism by not just scholars but by practicing Hindus. The answer to that is found in Aurobindo’s caution: in his time, he said that these [scholars] lacked the background necessary to properly read this largely spiritual literature [Vedas]. Aurobindo spoke on the authority of the native Indian tradition, which prescribes the prerequisites to understand and interpret these texts. In general, anybody who wants to write any commentary or similar work, especially on the Vedas should at the minimum know these Vedangas (literally, the limbs of the Vedas) apart from knowing the Vedas themselves:

    * Shiksha : phonetics and phonology (sandhi)
    * Chandas : meter
    * Vyakarana: grammar
    * Nirukta: etymology
    * Jyotisha: astrology and astronomy, dealing particularly with the auspicious days for performing sacrifices.
    * Kalpa: ritual

    Every single work that is considered as authoritative today by Hindus stem from this tradition–from the three major schools and other work by later scholars demonstrate adherence to these prerequisites. Works by scholars in British-ruled India like Ananda Coomaraswamy, M.Hiriyanna, P.V. Kane, and Ramana Maharshi (who largely spoke through silence and in the oral tradition) contain the same strand of fidelity to this tradition. These prerequisites is also known in general as Adhikari bheda, which simply means that a student should first successfully complete all the previous courses before attempting to sit for an Engineering exam.

    This lack of knowledge of these prerequisites is a highly notable feature of Western Indology. Their claim of scholarship and/or expertise in Indology rests almost wholly on their knowledge of Sanskrit. But as we’ve seen above, mere knowledge of the language of Sanskrit isn’t enough. It sometimes leads to rather laughable results:

    Having established this similarity between bird song and mantra, the theory then takes off with a life of its own. There are vedic rituals for making rain and curing illness and similarly birds sing for building nests or attracting females; there are rituals and bird songs for various occasions. Then it was also found that bird sing – believe it or not – just for pleasure. So Staal extends the theory to say that, similar to skiing, dancing and music, mantras and rituals too are done for pleasure.

    Between Staal’s athirathram in 1975 and Wood’s in 2006, one was held in 1990 near Thrissur which I attended for a day. This athirathram, which was extensively covered in Malayalam newspapers, was highly respectful and the words I heard were not “playful” or “pleasurable.” I can understand singing for pleasure, but am yet to meet a priest who said, “it’s a weekend and raining outside, let’s do a ganapati homam for pleasure.” [Ed: A highly recommended reading]

    Besides, there’s an entire cultural, philosophical, and spiritual heritage that cannot be understood merely in theory and bookish learning–it requires living the tradition. Even their knowledge of Sanskrit is suspect–for someone who holds sufficiently intimidating titles such as Mircea Eliade Distinguished Professor of the History of Religions, it is rather shameful to commit such blunders:

    According to Doniger, the concept of a “sex-addict” is introduced into the Valmiki Ramayana by Lakshmana calling Dasaratha kama-sakta, which she defines as “hopelessly attached to lust.”

    It is not clear where Doniger picks up the term ‘kama-sakta‘-the term does not appear upon a search of the text of the Valmiki Ramayana as given in the Titus online database, which is based on the following version of the text: G.H. Bhatt e.a., The Valmiki Ramayana, (Baroda 1960-1975), prepared by Muneo Tokunaga, March 12, 1993 (adaptations by John D. Smith, Cambridge, 1995.)…I will give the benefit of the doubt to Doniger and assume that the term kama-sakta has been used by Lakshmana to describe Dasaratha in the Valmiki-Ramayana. That in and of itself does not imply that Dasaratha was “hopelessly addicted to lust.” Kama-sakta simply means an attachment (sakta) to desire (kama). Kamadoes not itself necessarily refer to sexual desire, or even erotic or romantic desire. Dasaratha’s reluctance to allow Rama to serve as guard over Vishwamitra’s yajna, for example, or Lakshmana’s unwillingness to be parted from Rama, could equally be characterized as kama-sakta. To assume it to mean “attachment to lust” is another in a pattern of Doniger’s ex-cathedra translations in variance with traditional Sanskrit nirukta (etymology) for which she has been repudiated before.

    [Aside: For a more detailed treatment of her Sanskrit knowledge, this is a good place to head to.]

  25. B Shantanu says:

    Thanks to Dr Kalyanaraman-ji for alerting me to Vishal Agarwal’s “remarkably precise and well-documented preliminary review” of Wendy Doniger’s book that highlights a series of errors in interpretation and occassionally gross distortion.

  26. B Shantanu says:

    Another critique of Wendy Doniger: Calling her bluff

    Do read. It is well-reasearched and makes a number of good points.

  27. B Shantanu says:

    Another rebuttal: Whose history is it anyway? by Dr. Aseem Shukla.
    Excerpts:

    …I revisit her (Wendy Doniger) work now not just because Doniger provokes so many of us in the Hindu American community. Doniger represents what many believe to be a fundamental flaw in the academic study of Hinduism: that Hindu studies is too often the last refuge of idiosyncratic and irreligious academics presenting themselves as “experts” on a faith that they study without the insight, recognition or reverence of, in this case, a practicing Hindu or even non-Hindu–striving to study Hinduism from the insider’s perspective–would offer.

    …”Tell me where I have interpreted something wrong,” Doniger challenged her critics and the gauntlet was picked up. Factual inaccuracies in her latest book were detailed in a prominent Indian media outlet, and a lay historian, Vishal Agarwal, posted a detailed, chapter by chapter riposte to Doniger’s history that has been widely circulated. Not phrased in the niceties of academic parlance, perhaps, but Agarwal’s methodical work opens the door to questions about Doniger’s research, attention to detail, methodology, and more disturbingly, intentions behind her latest venture. Another detailed rebuttal to a single chapter spanning over twenty-two pages was posted by another writer this week.

    Parallelisms in her book conjure up obsolete anecdotes comparing the sacred stone linga representing Lord Shiva to a leather strap-on sex toy, and Lord Rama, one of the most widely worshiped deities, is psychoanalyzed to have acted out of fear that he was becoming a sex-addict like his father. As Agarwal shows, Doniger’s prose is replete with cutesy, perhaps, but offensive and jejune turns of phrases such as, “If the motto of Watergate was ‘Follow the money’, the motto of the history of Hinduism could well be ‘Follow the monkey’ or, more often ‘Follow the horse’.” And in another section, her interpretations of the Rig Veda, the most ancient of the Vedas that Hindus consider sacred, Doniger sees incest and adultery with a pregnant woman in a verse praying to God for protection and safe delivery.

    …Whether such a licentious foray into Hinduism studies is protected by free speech is not the question. Doniger can write and believe what she wishes. But Hindus are asking if publishers should bear responsiblity for copious factual and interpretive errors.

  28. Sid says:

    Shantanu,
    Let us give Doniger a rest. A lot of people made their points. People like R Malhotra and A Banerjee did their best to shred her supposedly “reputation” into pieces. I think a person of any national origin interested in Indology would know her name just by reading our criticism of hers. I really do not think that that sex-obsessed fool deserves more attention than what we already gave her.

    A far more dangerous, knowledgeable, well-reputed and intelligent adversary is Michael Witzel, a man who stands like the biggest roadblock against destroying the Aryan myth (Romila Thapars gain support from people like them).

    I rarely hear criticism of him. When I see the news like this:

    http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2009/07/michael-witzel-rattled-rat-at-iic.html

    I feel good, but this is not enough !!!

  29. CC says:

    Hi Shantanu, I recently came across an article in the NY times on Yoga and a sex scandal and I’m pasting excertps for reference.
    —–
    Yoga and Sex Scandals: No Surprise Here
    By WILLIAM J. BROAD
    Published: February 27, 2012

    The wholesome image of yoga took a hit in the past few weeks as a rising star of the discipline came tumbling back to earth. After accusations of sexual impropriety with female students, John Friend, the founder of Anusara, one of the world’s fastest-growing styles, told followers that he was stepping down for an indefinite period of “self-reflection, therapy and personal retreat.”

    ….

    One factor is ignorance. Yoga teachers and how-to books seldom mention that the discipline began as a sex cult — an omission that leaves many practitioners open to libidinal surprise.

    Hatha yoga — the parent of the styles now practiced around the globe — began as a branch of Tantra. In medieval India, Tantra devotees sought to fuse the male and female aspects of the cosmos into a blissful state of consciousness.

    —-
    End excerpts.

    I’m absolutely shocked to my core. Upon further digging, I found that there were many such articles on the web.. all on sex and Yoga.
    I kindly request you to do a post on this if you can.

    Regards,
    CC

  30. B Shantanu says:

    CC: Thanks…Yes, I noticed the article too..
    I am going to post excerpts from two rebuttals later this evening..Stay tuned.