Jamia Nagar: A dangerous cocktail…
…of vote-bank politics, breakdown in law and order, land mafias and alienated ghettoes. Please read on…
I received this email about the Jamia Nagar encounter last weekend. It is from Shri Anant Trivedi. Sh Trivedi is an eminent and respected citizen of Delhi working mostly in areas of good governance and improving the lot of the citizens. It is important to mention that Shri Trivedi is NOT affiliated to any political party or organisation.
The email paints a bleak picture of vote-banks, breakdown in law-and-order and a fearful minority that appears helpless against increasing radicalisation. Reproduced in full below:
*** Email from Sh Trivedi ***
This area (Jamia Nagar) is very close to my colony and I have been there several times to attend functions organised by the previous MLC Asif Mohd Khan. It is a no go area for the law and order machinery, and BSES meter readers. The area is densely populated and resembles any other north UP city where there is a Muslim majority. Urdu is the only language of the region. Asif was a guest in Tihar for several months caught up in a Pota case.
I previously knew the area back in 70s and then it was totally different. My in-laws used to own most of the land we often spent time at the Bhaskar farm which is now one of the ‘posh’ residential compounds here.
At the last MLA elections I visited a school in Zakir Nagar where voter’s id cards were being made and was shocked to notice that any one could get a card made after dishing out 100 Rs. No questions asked. So a visitor from Pakistan or Bangladesh could legitimately become an Indian citizen for a mere Rs100. For once you have a voter photo card then the rest follows.
Not long ago some one engineered a fight with a police constable to stop police patrolling of the area. A small qoran was deliberately knocked off a dhela and that gave them the excuse to start a fight. The local constable got trapped into this. Soon the local Sub SHO Sharma and a few other staff also got drawn into the melee and Sharma was thrashed so badly that he is lucky to be alive today. Okhla chowki was burnt down. Shaheen Bagh chowki became a Thana with all Muslim staff and the police now keep a distance form the whole area.
While the reporters were covering the live action (on the weekend), Asif Mohd Khan was hovering in the area and people had already started concocting stories that the police had come in about 3.00 am with the 3/4 of those killed. Planted them in the flat and then came back in the morning for the fake encounter. Huge crowds gathered behind the police lines and at about midday you could already hear loud anti police noises from the crowds fuelled by fake encounter stories. If police were not there in numbers and well armed, they would have been massacred.
What we are witnessing here is the result of years of vote bank politics in which poor from all over UP, Bihar, Bangladesh have been persuaded to settle in this area with false promises of livelihood by the likes of Parvez Hashmi. Even Salman Khurshid who lives in the area close to Batla House has done nothing to stem this steady tide of people coming in with hope of a better future than in UP, only to be caught up in mounting debt and living conditions no better than what they left behind.
They also become victim to the wrong elements from the local mosques who are always there to use religion as a tool to exploit the vulnerable. Our politicians are each day raising expectations of the vulnerable unsuspecting minorities. When stories of fake encounters and police excesses start circulating, then there are plenty of buyers of such stories since the mind has already been conditioned to expect this. It is quite possible that Police too desperate to produce results will sometimes engineer such encounters. But it is most unlikely that this was fake for after all why would the police provide arms to ‘those they planted’ only to have their own colleague got killed later?
It is always tempting to generalise, but the majority of Muslims in this area are not with jihadi tendancy. They are law abiding and peaceful, and want to get ahead in life. But they find it very difficult to stand up the criminal element, which is always ready to exploit religion or muscle to suppress any resistance to their criminal intent. Right next door to my home exists a small largely Muslim colony Zakirbagh. They have a small colony prayer hall that has been hijacked by outsiders and now the residents are totally helpless and at a loss on how to rescue their small colony where thousands assemble for prayers. The prayer hall leaders are no more than 4/5 in number! The block of flats next to the prayer hall is where Gov. Kidwai’s family lives as well as Hassan Ahmad a prominent Congressman. Fearful of arousing religious sentiments, no one attempts to restrict entry of outsiders. Once prayer times were changed, and hundreds warned these hapless residents not to interfere with prayer issues ever again.
The cocktail of religion and politics is very potent and increasingly used by the politician.
Changing this situation and the mindset of the vulnerable minorities and helping them out of the rot they are in, is one of the biggest challenges for concerned citizens of India today.
***
Sh Trivedi’s conclusion is sobering and though-provoking…If you think he is over-estimating the challenge, pl. read these excerpts from a “first-hand” account of the encounter…and notice the extraordinary parallels…vote-bank politics, breakdown in law-and-order, political goons, land mafia…
*** Excerpts Begin ***
…The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV channels
…Most local people are surprised at the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local residents got to know about the incident only after the two people had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their constables.
…Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall to get the best shot while they beat the local rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of terrorists.
But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot of angry conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and clichéd for anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) since last few days. Most local residents feel that this was a stage-managed encounter just like so many others that have taken place in the past. However, with the news about the death of a police inspector, this claim is less likely to be taken seriously. But still, I did not find a single local resident who is not fed up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst against their portrayal.
…most local residents believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House’s backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting bribe from its operators any day).
…The local people, frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, simply squirm and hide in their personal ghettos.
*** End of Excerpts ***
Image of protest rally against Batla House encounter, Oct ’08 (Wikipedia)
I am now beginning to wonder whether the first step in tackling terrorism is an overhaul of the political system?
P.S. The “encounter” has raised questions of its own…but nothing is what it seems to be
Related Posts:
Dear Shantanu
In a system as dirty as the one that exists in India with the reputation of the politicians and police completely sullied, no one really knows whom to believe.
Of course, there will always be excellent members in each organisation and thousands of outstanding police officers and personnel have not only fought crime but laid down their life for the safety of citizens. Many of the police may be corrupt but they are still imbued with a sense of duty.
The police need good leaders and at times they are fortunate to get them, at others they are not. The idea of a police station in the heart of Delhi manned on communal lines (only Muslim police) is antithetical to the role and purpose of the police and is a sign of bad leadership.
The clean up needed in India is massive and yes, you are right: it has to start at the top. Good people are reluctant and perhaps unable to enter politics successfully. But that can’t go on for ever. Well organised resistance to the system through a major political movement will surely succeed in the end. That is what the Freedom Team aims to launch in the coming years, provided it finds a sufficient number of leaders willing to contest elections as a team and challenge the existing system. This is not a one-man job, but India is sadly full of too many people – millions of them – who are happy to talk about problems but refuse to organise systematically to change things through the existing democratic process which is the most powerful legitimate option open to them.
For those interested in really making a difference – but in a well-considered and systematic manner – please consider joining the Freedom Team at http://freedomteam.in
Regards
Sanjeev
I think you should include intellibriefs on your blogroll. Here is a sample:
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2005/01/goadhra-burning-coach-s-6-of-sabarmati.html
Very thorough report. We need more of these.
godhra, jamia, ayodha or many other names.there is one thing common. hindu got killed and muslim enjoyed. when hindu backlessed hindu objacted on behalf of muslim. there is always two side of coin, but why we hindu are always on down side or loseing side. let’s assume jamia was planed encounter, can anyone deny hand of muslim in delhi bomb blast. the guys killed at jamia was terrorist that matter most. even if it was planned, it was for mass wellbegin. wht happen after godhra was right, if we have some leader like modi we won’t be faceing the present situation. i m not telling to kill every muslim, but if u want to live in peace u have to tell others that we can defend ourself. this is just political propoganda that muslim is minority or weaker class in india, muslim enjoys more then any other community in india. but still we are doing nothing.
@ Sanjeev: Thanks for your comments… I really wish these things bring more and more people on to the FTI platform..
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@ Vinay: Thanks for the link….I will have a look…
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@ tarun: I think you are being too emotional here at the cost of being rational…
I cannot ever justify the killing of innocents…There can be a lot of theories about why riots happen…but surely we cannot say that they are “right”
Pl. reconsider what you wrote in the comment above…in particular:
“…what happen after godhra was right”
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
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my dear indian brothers and sisters, it is time we understood that there are only two religions today in human society, ‘the haves’ and ‘the have nots’.i noticed in post independence india that hindu cause the maximum damage to their own community and the same goes for the muslims.today if u look around mosques and temples u will find the trustees of these places of worship as rich people with a lot of political connections. this is the tragedy with religion in india. the worst part is that 99 percent of the people in this country don’t properly understand what their religion stands for, be it hindu or muslim . as regards religion most of us blindly follow what we r told from childhood.i assure u that the majority of indian citizens are peace loving and close family knit people.10 percent rotten eggs exist in every society.i think the problem of intolerence in india is deep rooted in the state of uttar pradesh.it is the largest political state of india, sends the highest number of MP’s to parliament, has the most important religious centres of both hindus and muslims, has all the disputed places of worship in post indepence india,and not to forget the rising regional satraps like mayawati , mulayam and company.it is time we started thinking on rational lines at roots of problems rather than suspecting people on religious lines.i m from azamgadh and i must say the recent events regarding azamgadh started unfolding after ramakant yadav who switched to BJP after flirting with samajwadi party and bahujan samaj party lost the recent by poll MP election. he was the strongman of azamgadh and brother of the dreaded umakant yadav who tried to strip mayawati in the assembly.before we jump to conclusions and start suspecting our own countrymen we must as true indians start thinking on rational lines. jaihind. satyameva jayate.
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after ramakant yadav lost the MP election from azamgadh , he swore revenge on the muslims who he openly blamed for his defeat. his supporters shouted slogans like †uttar pradesh ko gujarat banayenge aur start azamgadh se karengeâ€.we must also not forget the role played by a few muslim seminaries in misguiding unemployed muslim youths in uttar pradesh.as a muslim it hurts me a lot when madarssas teach more arab history than indian history. a young muslim boy knows more what happened in arabia 1400 years ago but is ignorant about the peaceful spread of islam in india by sufi saints and peers like khwaja chisti or nizamuddin auliya who were respected and highly regarded by both muslims and hindus. these uttar pradesh madarssas never teach about sai baba who was a muslim but has most hindu followers because he preached the scriptures of ‘love and respect’ for all.a lot of muslim youths don’t even know when and how islam arrived in india.this disease of intolerence is being mostly spread from the state of uttar pradesh and is harming both hindu and muslim homes. in uttar pradesh hindu society has too been divived of sectarian lines like yadav, chamar, kurmi, thakur, etc etc . just for political gains. this is harming hindu society too. we can see the repucussions of it in maharashtra in the ‘anti north indian ‘ drive by the shiv sena and raj thackeray. i noticed that hindu and muslim religious leaders fom uttar pradesh are spreading their divisive agenda to other states of india. i state all this as a rational person and as a concerned indian to my fellow brothers.i believe if we indians start thinking on rational lines and discuss are true feelings without any religious bias we can clear a lot of misunderstandings amongst us all. the truth always wins or say it with pride ’satyameva jayate’
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terrorism has no religion or face . it is mostly political agenda where religion is sometimes used as a mask to cover or justify wrong doings. terrorism mostly ends up taking innocent human lives and ends up in guilt for those who commit terror. thats when for the sake to hide their guilt they use religion as a justification. the tragedy is that post 9/11 even a rebel is a terrorist.all over the world barring a few exceptions the so called rebels or terrorists are mostly from the poor or underprevilaged class. in india it is kashmiri or a north east india or from the poor moslem minority mostly not to forget tribal naxalites and maoist rebel groups.it is never a upper caste previlaged hindu person . in sri lanka it is the poor tamil hindu who r the root of all suicide attacks, the ruling sinhalese are always peace loving buddhists . in pakistan the terrorist comes mostly from kashmir, baluchistan or north west frontier region who r mostly poor . the rich sindhi or punjabi muslims are always seen as leading the ‘war on terror’.same pattern is followed in europe where eastern european communists state are mostly the terrorists while the rich west europe is a highly civilised society. in america the terrorists are mostly ‘black skinned’.in the arab world 19 hijackers of 9/11 were saudi arabian nationala but still they say all arab terror comes from iraq , yemen, syria, lebanon , who had past communist leanings. the rich arab states like kuwait , saudi , dubai and qatar and bahrain are victims of terrorism according to western experts.i say all this because post 9/11 we young people are getting confused between rebels and terrorists and religion.no religion preaches violence .sometimes we confuse a regional struggle as a religious struggle. not many people know but the palestinian christians fight alongside muslims against israel. a lot of christians in lebanon support hizbollah in its arm struggle and even fight and die with them. the LTTE in sri lanka has tamil cadres of all faiths.a naxalite or a maoist in india cannot be labelled a ‘hindu terrorist’ and yet in most cases i feel hurt when everyone shouts ‘muslim terrorist’ or ‘islamic terrorist’.how can a terrorist be identified with his religion when 99 percent of humans on this earth don’t even know what their religion stands for ???
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i hate it when people accuse islam of spreading violence and hate.violence and killing are a unavoidable dynamic of human society and existed many thousands of years even before islam was born.if islam promoted terror then indonesia with the highest muslim population would have been the biggest terrorist nation.i know a muslim man who framed his own brother as a member if al qaeda after they quarrelled over property dispute. i know a moslem trustee of a mosque who got expelled for stealing charity funds go to the ‘bajrang dal ‘ office and tell them that the mosque members were planning a bomb blast.it is true that the 1993 mumbai blasts was the handiwork of muslim criminal elements but not all bomb blasts are carried out by muslims.the muslims will continue to pay a very heavy price for the sins committed in 1993 in mumbai.it has given the political parties of india to use this big weakness or blunder committed by misguided muslims to their advantage when some important elections draw near. only poor middle class innocent hindus get targetted in these blasts and muslim youth from midle class or poor get picked up as suspects.some are killed in stage managed encounters others interrogated for months without a proper chargesheet. the media paints them as villians even before they are tried and convicted. in a lot of cases after the person has been given a clean chit the media never even cares to inform the general public.
Tarique: I don’t think I have seen you on this blog before…So, welcome.
You have made a number of good and valid points on which I will comment in a day or two…
It is always refreshing and educative to hear an insider’s point of view…I will be looking for more perspective and context seeing that you are from Azamgarh…
In the meantime, I am sure others too will add their thoughts.
Welcome to the discussion.
Shantanu I stand by my statement that “wht happen after godhra was right and needed.â€. this is my thinking and I firmly say that.
I an not a supporter of riots or innocent killings. I never support violence. I never want to see bloodbath or massacres. But this is truth of society. All this things happen. Shantanu I want to ask u something if I come to ur home and slap ur child, without any reason will u say thank u to me? It is obvious that either u will stop me or if I still don’t stop u will hit me back. Does that means u r supporting violence? Wht happen after godhra was right because certain ppl was under impration that they can do anything to Indian people and hindus or people of India will not retaliate ever. I m not telling muslim cause I agree bomb don’t see any religion. But same time we should agree that muslim community really plays a big role in Indian terrorist activist.
Tarique, I agree with u that not all muslims are bad and I fully support u on this that more then 95% of hindu and muslim population don’t know wht there religion is. Wht is true message of there respective religion. But tarique u tell me one thing atleast we can make diffrance wht is good and wht is bad. If u knows that in madrass wht they teach is not good for human society, then why parents send there children to learn there? Doesn’t every parent knows wht there child is learning? I agree poverty is root cause of many evils, and every terrorist organization will look for one problem or other to attract people. But the decision is on one’s will too. If u check the recent terrorist profile they are well educated and well informed. So it is in one’s mind that decide it’s destiny. Cause of poverty or other political reason both community suffer equally. This is a social problem and we shd fight with it toghther. But because ur denied something that is y ur killing others is not a valid reason to kill.
shantanu, if u want to live in peace u have to fight for peace. In war u don’t see that whom ur bullet will hit the only aim of war is to break ur enemy by any means. I am not saying who got killed in riots are all terrorist, but there killing and the most important the united reaction people showed really made terrorist think . godhra , babri masjid, recent bomb blast really made Indian people closer. I agree that there is politics behind all this but we can’t blame only politics or politicians for everything. We have to take responsibility too.
thanx a lot shantanu for welcoming me. i promise to be a asset to this site . i like to speak from my heart and would like my other brothers to do the same here without any fear or favour. jaihind. satyameva jayate.
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
tarun i think violence in india is more due to ignorance than religion. the violence level in dalits or muslims will be more because they may have an inside feeling of alienation and fear.kindly don’t mistake that as a anti national activity. sometimes insecurity in a particular community drives them to crime. the best case is the ‘black skinned’ blacks in prosperous america or advanced europe.indian muslims suffered a lot due to partition regarding jobs in police,army and governance sectors. this created a deep feeling of alienation. same case can be found amongst the tamils in sri lanka or the naxals or maoist who feel the syastem has let them down.even a brother kills his own brother sometimes in a family when he feels left behind. i m not justifying anything here, violence the least. tarun, i m only trying to imply that these things are a part of human dynamics of human society from time immemorial.and please dont talk bad about the dead till they are proved guilty.look at the amount of damage we have already done to society by jumping to conclusions in the arushi case.i know for sure and i stand by it that 99 percent highly educated muslim youths will die but not kill innocents.all madarssas are not bad as u think it to be. besides mostly the under previlaged class of muslims sent their kids to study there as lodging and boarding are very cheap there. rich muslims send their kids to the best schools they can afford.and these shady madarssas are mostly emerging on the uttar pradesh nepal border recently of siddharth nagar which has recently come to my notice.i started my blog if u remember the seed of hate enamating from the state of uttar pradesh. tarun, the role of some fundamentalist hindu organisation is also not clear from that state if u can highlight it for all of us to combat it in future.fundamentalist from both religions badly need each other to survive. please dont discount the possiblities of a joint venture between hindu and mus;lim fundamentalists.
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tarun if sumone comes to ur home and slaps ur child it does not mean he is doing it out of an ideology or religion. he is doing it coz he has no sense or lacks common knowledge
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
meaningless violence is very common in india and poor regions of africa. if u by any mistake while driving a car in a remote indian village happen to crush a hen the entire village comes out and surrounds u with lathis.then u r threathened tp pay compensation or else get ur bones broken.a lot of domestic violence in our poverty regions are of this type. they take religious diemensions in some cases when the cockfighters happen to belong to two diferent religions
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i want to assure all our india brothers that azamgarh is not a ‘nursery of terror’ as it is being made out to be by many sections of public and media. it is one of the shining lights of india when it comes to ‘intellectual struggle’. azamgarh is barren piece of land in eastern uttar pradesh with very little agrictural land for cultivation. the older generation of this state strived very hard to build strong academic and religious institutions within the state to prevent the criminalisation of this state.both hindus and muslims contributed a lot to this effort. azamgarh produced a lot of eminent educationists , poets , freedom fighters and many successful personalities despite the bad geography of the state .this is no small achievement for any landlocked place in the world if u get my point correct.a youth of azamgarh gets easily drawn to education and reading coz he has very few other options in his state . he has very little fertile land at his disposal to feed his family.most azmi’s study and venture outside the state or even abroad for better opportunities.but the stumbling block for educationists in azamgarh arrived when in the late 70’s atal bihari vajpayee as external affairs minister in the janata party government opened us visa facilities for cheap labour export to the booming gulf oil economy.it made a lot of young boys in this landlocked state shun education and move out out for the sake of low paid manual labour. that was the beginning of the destruction of the education movement of azamgarh.young boys hardly out of their teens were lining up to get their passports ready rather than go for higher education. the low paid manual labour money was still more lucrative than a clerk’s job in an indian office when the oil boom began in the gulf.despite all these flaws that crept in u will always find an educated azmi very broad minded and open to discussions from his heart. after all azamgarh has its deep roots in the education movement and not in the ‘easy money’ movement that brought a few uneducated azmi’s to sully the reputation of our state.even a tiny particle from our great educational institutions has the power to change to change the world thinks. azamgarh will rise again to its pristine glory and show the world the power of truth
Dear Sir,
it is so welcome to have a joust of fresh air in these turbulent times. Mr. Tarique speaks sense and I am sure we can build few more righteous people on to your blog to bring dignity to a portion of bloggers who sincerely write here.
The only jarring point in the theory of Shri Tarique is that poverty leads to this form of thought towards aggressiveness.
My father had no clothes to wear and he and his siblings used to eat from the floor swept clean after sleeping dressing and studying! Yes, only one room for eight people but he did not turn a terrorist.
Dr. Ambedkar, a man before whom the whole world bows ia a beacon in this area. I need not repeat his story, but he did not turn a terrorist.
We know of Dr. Abdul kalam.
We know of Mr. Rao the founder of Woodlands, who was a lowly cleaner before he started his chain of Hotels, very famous in the south.
How many should I point out.
it is not education alone that makes or breaks a man. it is his upbringing. Shri Tarique has pointed out that after the flood gates of the Gulf were opened, instead of studying many people went to work rather than study.
I hope many people will have read the story of “The Verger” by Somerset Maugham.
It is the movies and the loud living of the politicians that has contributed more to this level of degradation rather than lack of education.
The person who sharpens my knife is an uneducated Muslim. The person who does the polishing of my vessels is an uneducated Muslim. I gave these two examples as these two people ARE NOT TERRORISTS.I leave my house open when they are doing their work with my two DAUGHTERS alone with them and I feel so safe with them around. No jokes about it.
Let me tell you Sir, there are no born terrorists either Muslim or Hindu or otherwise. It is their lack of confidence in themselves, and how society deals with the poor or the farmer.
An uneducated farmer who gives us our daily bread is looked down upon as he wears dirty clothes and smells.We do not appreciate him. Unless we learn to respect ourselves and consequently others there will be no end to this story.
About uneducated farmers. Two MBA’s were driving down the road when they met a farmer. They wanted to play a game on him. They stopped the car and asked him if he had change for an “Eighteen Rupee note”.
The farmer asked them to wait and went into his ramshackle hut and came out with a battered wallet and asked them ‘Do you want THREE SIXE’s or TWO NINES”!!!
Let us learn to respect and we will learn to respect the world.
Regards,
vck
@ Tarique
No doubt as you said Terrorist and terrorism has no face… like you mentioned the LTTE or Naxalbari people are Hindus
but there is a reason why they arent termed as “Hindu terrorist” None of the henious acts performed by these above two terrorist outfits are under the name of GOD OR RELIGION. please highlight me if any of the LTTE or Maoist brainwashing their cadre with religion and on the name of Ram asking them to commit sucide bombings or killing innocent… and attend swarga(heaven)
Now why the branding as Islamic terrorist!!.. i’l explain
All Muslims are not Terrorist nor all the terrorist who are caught are Muslims, but all dharmic terrorist or a religious terrorist are always Muslim .. all over the world.. i.e.
to incite voilence in the name of Allah(GOD) in the name of Jihad and kill other people and attend jannat ..this kind of ideology is only taught in muslim terrorist camps… thats why ALL religious terrorist are muslim… the term islamic terrorist
So terrorism has no face but terrorism on the name of religion has a face!
Further you gave an example of Indonesia… i will further add singapore too which has a good number of Islamic population…still no islamic terrorist… why? again where is islam taught???… in the mosques.. by whom … islamic preist or mulavis right!.. these mullas in the above to countries are following rules by the kuraan… and arent twisting the meanings of kuraan and are not preaching hatred.. unlike in some parts of India and in terrorist camps.
There is story where the villain no matter slaughtered still he comes to life.. but finaly when the king/hero kills a parrot sitting on the tree the villan dies.. or in short the villains life was into that parrot…
shivaji maharaj killed afzal khan.. but now another afzal has arosed?.. why.. because we are not killing the parrot..
and the parrots are these mulavies(islamic clerics)…
These high ranking muslim clerics are issuing ridiculus fathwahs… fatwah against salman khan… why because he workships ganpati, fathwah against sania mirza because she wears clothes not applicable in islam.. i dont understand why arent these same clerics arent issuing fathwahs against Afzal guru? or Osama bin Laden or any other convicted terrorist
Osama bin laden was inspired by an fundamentalist islamic cleric in the university which he was learning…. so until these clerics are not censored … the religious ideological terrorism will continue…
(govt has also issue gag order against these people too for inciting voilence via their friday sermons)
further there is one more parrot to kill… and that is Indian national congress.. with its absolutly ridiculus pension policies for islamic terrorist families and meaningless sacchar report
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Further i would also like to mention.. the muslim minority of india.. is really still poor and uneducated… still away from banking system and the judicial system..(uniform civil code)… sairabano case where even after supreme court ordered her husband to pay her alimony.. the verdict was turned against her, is the famous ones where how the some of these islamic clerics are treating the women under the name of koran and sharia and islamic law!..
Muslim in India really need upliftment so as you mentioned instead of they going to these shady madarasa they can go to a proper school… but i dont support the Sacchar committee report … as it includes 5crore bangaleshi muslims.. which is not our liability.
जय हिंद! जय महाराषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°!!
@@edition
shahabano case and not sairabano case
mr. krishnan and mr. mahesh as i told u in my blog that 10 percent rotten eggs exist in all societies . if there are muslim fanatics in india then there are fanatics who r poisoning south india which is normally peaceful by burning down churches too. yet we can proudly say that 95 percent hindus are tolerant and peace loving majority.i never said poverty encourages terror , i only meant to say that no one points a finger when a rich nation does it.the americans armed the poor afghans during the cold war with russia.today poor afghans are terrorists while the rich americans are leading the ‘war on terror’. u get my point now.another case is saudi arabia from where the 19 9/11 hijackers came. but saudi was a rich nation so they choose to bomb the afghans. this was what i was trying to stress.the palestinians don’t fight in the name of islam nor does the hizbollah and even israel accepts that .pakistan is paying a heavy price for the cold war policy which it effectively used on india in kashmir. yet let us not forget that the rich americans supported pakistan fully in its extremism. i hope i have made my point clear to both of u
yes muslims use extremist measures in a lot of places. i do not deny that. but what is the reason for it ??? the reason lies in the lack of a strong military presence in the muslim world to built confidence among muslims.out of the 57 muslim majority nations in the world hardly 10 nations have a small regular military. pakistan is the largest muslim military. iraq was the largest muslim military in the middle east and they destroyed it. i think after pakistan only iran remains with a small decent military force. if u totally combine the military force of all the 57 muslim nations u will find that they do not add up to even half of india’s military strenght.compare that to the west or america or india and u get the full picture.after the destruction of iraq only syria with a human population of 1 crore remains with a small military. with the collapse of the former soviet union a lot of arab nations who were close to the communists found themselves the target from america and their arab allies . and they did not have a military to defend themselves against it. this gave rise to what we call violent ‘jihad’ in the middle east today. this is not a justification to acts of terror but a fact which the whole world is turning a blind eye to.if u combine the total population of the arab world it is just around 5 or 6 crores. thats all.despite being well spread out across the globe the muslim world has no proper military presence for self defense like india or britian or america.these are some of the harsh realities the muslim world as well as the rest of the world will have to face in the times to come. the end to acts of brutal terrorism is only one – confidence building measures in the middle east and central asia where the muslims feel most insecure.with the strong rise of right wing groups in india , we too will be affected by it.we must all remember that terrorism came on our soil through punjab and kashmir in the early 80’s.after indira gandhi openly sided with the russians in the cold war , the americans made sure that pakistan got enough funds to create a sense of insecurity in india’s punjab and kashmir borders. poverty is exploited by the rich for the sake of domination. the poor don’t become terrorists coz of poverty but coz of fear of domination. world politics is all about domination and the rich have their pawns for their right moves.right wing we must say.
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Tarique,
Good that you are seeing the geopolitical angle of it. I strongly believe that the last 100 years have seen increased islamic fundamentalism will the sole purpose of polariing Hindus and muslims. Afterall the west needs India to fight their crusades for them.
Also, if Pakistan and Agganistan had continued to be part of India, do you think the west would have been able to assualt them and destory them? Question to ponder. Seperating each part has weakened it and now detsoryed it
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So guys, what is the solution?
I think we have to start filtering all our politicians. Can we make a list of politicians by district and tag them on a scale of 1-5 (clean to gone cases). That way we know who we are dealing with. In the next election, we can make sure that the scumbags do not win in their localities
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nishka , india is a very strong nation in every aspect of the world. we r not inferior to anybody in the world in any matter.we are blessed with a human population of 1100 million , have the strongest agriculture in more than 70 perecent of our lands being fertile and good for growth, and an army of more than 1 crore.population is a big strenght today for any nation and we indian who were cribbing and crying till the other day are now realising the potential of our huge population. we saw how europe , japan and the arabs are suffering with no young population at their disposal to carry on to the future. agriculture is our single biggest strenght to face any threat or calamity faced by us. our farmers are the unsung heroes and our biggest protectors after god. just imagine an agricultural economy strong enough to feed 1100 million people. what more do u want ??? if u notice the map of our blessed country closely u will find that more than 70 percent of our land is fertile. a few areas have no agriculture like kashmir or the north east and we find extremism in these areas.islamic or christian or hindu fundamentalism can cause temperory setbacks to us but are not strong enough to destroy our natural strenghts. a few bomb blasts happen all over the world today. we can draw our strenght from the fact that london city faced irish terrorism for 35 long years on a daily basis and still overcame it.we are more stronger in every aspect so jaihind. jaibharatmata. satyameva jayate.
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mahesh do u seriouly think we muslims are pampered in this country ?? i seriously advise u to look into it in a rational manner. we muslims are the most exploited class of people in post independence india and our conditions our getting worse than the poor dalits if u have an honest eye to look into it.the common muslim is like †nobody cares for us and we in turn care for nobodyâ€no jobs in the government sector or public sector , very little representation in army or police, nothing done by government is concrete for he muslims to bring them into the mainstream. what commonly is seen by a section of hindu society as ‘muslim pampering’ is nothing but making a fool of backward muslim society by our corrupt political parties. if atal bihari vajpaye visits a muslim area is it compulsory for him to wear a muslim prayer cap and get photographed with a bunch of useless bearded men just to show his secular credentials ??
take a look at political iftar parties in india and i heard last week george bush organized one in the white house. what is all this for ??
just pure politics and stabbing muslims in the back after embracing them.why do we always see bearded mullahs sharing a election speech dias with our politicians in muslim areas ??they never bring forward a liberal muslim or a broad minded muslim who is clean shaven and wears trousers. why ???
and u think the shah bano verdict was muslim pampering ??? it was pure politics by indian national congress and it harmed the muslims in the long run.the government provides haj subsidies which is totally against the teachings of islam. a haj can only be be performed with honest earnings from hard work and the money cannot be borrowed. u see what u think as muslim pampering is actually weakening the muslim position.i wish sumone wrote to our government to abolish haj subsidies and use the money for bringing alienated muslims into the mainstream and confidence building measure. but this will never happen under any government. the political stakes are too high for such a risk as congress does not want to lose elections and BJP does not want to be seen by the general public as being too close to the muslims.the only good thing narendra modi did for muslims in gujrat is arranging direct flights for haj from ahmedabad airports. what is the difference here between congress and the BJP ?? TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN.
muslim pampering is nothing but lavish iftar parties , haj subsidies , allowing dirty muslim ghettoisation to increase number of votes to win an election and using muslims as scapegoats for all evils in this country. dawood ibrahim or abu salem are widely highlighted as muslims but no one highlights the indian corrupt government officials who help these dons to rise in this country. imam bukhari is not popular enough to win a small civic election in the delhi moslem ghetto where he resides and still he is called the representative of all india muslims. public memory is short but the first time imam bukhari adressed a public meeting in delhi it was from the jan sangh platform where he shared the dias with vajpayee and advani.that was during the emergency days.
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to make one point clear that there is no concept in islam or the holy koran about jihadis going to heaven and getting 40 virgins , as being widely circulated on the internet.these and other fictitious stories are being spread by a section of tableegh jamaat leaders to attract young muslims to their fold . i used to attend it as a young boy but got disgusted after i heard two fictitious stories spread by them which will not be believed even by 2 year old kids today.the 1st story ‘ a tableeghi holy leader who they call ‘ameer sahab’ was travelling to spread islam across a river. he encountered a huge crocodile with mouth wide open. as he moved back to save himself there was a tiger waiting to pounce on him. he decided to perform his prayers. as he bowed in prayers the tiger leapt only to miss the holy ameer saheb to become food for the hungry crocodile’. they conclude after he finished his prayer he saw how even nature protects those who travel to spread islam……..2nd story ‘ a ameer and his band of faithfuls were travelling were travelling across a forest to reach a village to spread islam. they realised they had run short of food and were very hungry. they offered prayer to god and asked for relief from hunger. suddenly a horde of delicious looking deers from the forest came running towards the jamaat members and lay down gesturing to the ameer sahab to slaughter them and eat them up’
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i came across a hindu boy who had converted to islam . i asked him the reason for his conversion. he said he was very impressed by the powers of a certain maulana. i said â€wat kind of powers he has shiv kumar ??†he replied †well once he ran out of petrol while travelling on his scooter. unable to find a petrol pump nearby he just collected some water from the nearby pond and blessed it with muslim prayers. he then pored it in his scooter and sped off †. believe me i had a shocking disblief on my face and told him †i feel very pity for u shiv kumar â€. he smiled and told me flat on my face †tarique bhai u have lack of faith in allah and u r a communist thinker †and went away
@ Tarique bhai,
I guess maybe in hurriedly you have read my post…
So i would request you to again read my post.
I have very much highlighted my statement by saying
“All Muslims are not terrorist nor all the terrorist who are caught are Muslims but all the religious terrorist are muslims. What is the defn of religious terrorist: one who incites voilence in the name of god or the holy book…and brainwash their cadre to carry out terrorist act in the name of god!…and this is very unique only to muslim terrorist only… thats why only terrorist who are branded in the name of religion are muslim terrorist.
“I am giving an answer why term is used …nothing more to read in”
In respect of Shahbano what i have said,which you have wrongly interpreted but rightfully mentioned by you which i actually implied in my post about Congress.
thats why i mentioned that congress is another parrot which needs to be killed.
Please read carefully the below paragraph too
Further although i have not mentioned in my thread but yes Muslim community in india is very much pampered by Indian National Congress. The muslim community in india doesnot requires pampering but requires “love”…
let me explain what i am trying to say in above para..
There are two type of parents, one who pamper their kids by fulfilling every request but in long term they turn out to be spoilt brats.. (in this context Congress by pampering muslim community is giving “curse in disguise”)
while the other type of parents who love their kids and hence dont meet the request made by their kids which are bad… and scold at their kids. (in this context Hindu telling muslim .. that whatever perks you are getting under the name of secularism is just vote bank politics)
Tarique bhai actually I have a very good rappo with my muslim friends and one of my friend Rizwaan Qureshi also thinks on your lines. Well the profession in which i am .. it comprises of 95% muslim. The Ganpati in our house is lifted by Muslims. Daily i am eating evening roja food with them..
And the place where i stay i.e. Mumbai .. i dont think
after 1992 riots anyone is even interested to listen to a speech which contains polarisation of Hindu and Muslim…
जय हिंद ! जय महाराषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤° !!
All: This is proving to be a great discussion…I had promised a response to Tarique this weekend but it is rather late now…
But I will definitely have some points to make on this tomorrow…
Thanks all for an engaging debate.
Dear Shri. Tarique,
if what you are expressing is from your heart, I am hopeful of the future of India, if not please be careful as you might be marked as a Kafir and killed.
Let me assure you that I am actually supporting the views you have expressed.
I was only trying to point out that education alone will not get you anywhere, it is a sword with two faces, it can cut both ways. it can kill a person and on the other side, is the person protected. We should understand which side one is.
Education, the best; Harvard, Stanford, Berkely, Oxford, Cambridge, you name it; today after the subprime crisis it is all a bunch of nonsense. These educated persons where only a bunch of hoodlums who raped the poor and exploited the middle class for theitr own ends.
WHERE THEY REALLY EDUCATED?? That is what I am trying to highlight.
Education as you call it today is not education it is a bunch of words put together,which you are taught, after which somebody states that you have put the words together correctly and then allow you to put a bunch of letters against your name. Is that education?
I am not talking of that education which does not teach you to respect yourself, that which does not teach you to respect your fellowmen. I am talking of an education that teaches to sift the chaff from the grain, that education which teaches you not to exploit and to be exploited; That education that which teaches you that the road to success is not paved with roses, but with thorns.
I reiterate here Poverty is not an excuse for crude and gross behaviour, it is what you want to learn and what you understand after learning.
Please understand it is learning not education. One can learn any trade.
Poverty has not made the persons who sit in front of Churchgate polishing shoes terrorists. Poverty has not made the taxidriver a terorist.
It is your mindset. It is not poverty or education. They play a very minor role. YOU are responsible.
I am with you as your intentions are noble.
Let us not get exploited but stand up to the exploitation and fight it.
Let us not blame the US or any nation; Where did our BRAINS go;
Let us not shift the blame. Let us take responsibility and put our shoulders and fight it out for a better Bharat.
regards,
vck
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my brothers mahesh and krishnan, i think all of us are thinking on the same lines, just the style of expression is different .mahesh i m still not convinced with the pampering part. as a muslim i know better what i m getting .and krishnan ur ideas are very noble about being good thinkers yet as a human being i feel that is easier said than done.”a million peer , paighambers, sants and swamis came and went , yet human society did best what suited their comforts”
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krishnan from lanka yudh to mahabharat war to the karbala mindless killings to the crusades to kalinga war to the world wars to kargil do u think we all lived in an age of foolish thinkers ???
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i have a small request to all my brothers. kindly don’t paint jamia nagar youngsters shot dead or arrested as terrorists till they are proved guilty by a court of law. without any religious bias i sincerely feel these youngsters were either framed or paid the price for some other small crime they may have committed as youngsters.already the autopsy reports are suggesting something ‘fishy’ took place in that encounter.wait and watch.
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if u remember a guy named afroze in mumbai who was arrested a few months after 9/11 and was charged as being a close aide of osama bin laden. he was a training pilot and mumbai police charged him with planning suicide attacks on austraillia and london towers. it later turned out that he was framed by a rich man over a quarrel he picked up in a beer bar over a bar dancer.
Hi Tarique
Happy that you represent you pov on this forum. You quote instance of Afroze in Mumbai –
Please let me know what the Muslim community is doing to help the investigative agencies inquiring into the blasts working as they are with several leads to the SIMI. Do leaders of the community actively help in such cases?
Tarique: Let me address some specific points raised in your comments over the last few days…
First of all, I broadly agree with most of what you have said…
Here are the points where I diverge or I have one or two questions of you…
1. You mention the feeling of “alienation and fear†amongst Muslims…Do you feel that the Muslim community also has to shoulder some of the blame for having failed to undergo reforms? Do you feel that at least part of the reason for Muslim under-development is the lack of education – especially female illiteracy amongst Muslims?
2. You mention that “Muslims suffered a lot due to partition regarding jobs in police, army and governance sectors….†Do you agree that this seeming under-representation in the army, government and public sector was largely due to a vast majority of existing officers having decided to leave India for Pakistan?
3. You say that “…despite being well spread out across the globe the muslim world has no proper military presence for self defense like india or britian or america….â€
This is (I feel) a very dangerous argument to make…Are you saying that Muslims all over the world are actually one single “nation†and hence need a military?
I have often read (and I am sure you have too) that Islam encourages trans-national loyalties…Isn’t this kind of logic a symptom of that?
India’s size of military is dictated by our environment – which is very unstable and largely hostile..You may know that many countries that share boundaries with come under the category of “failed statesâ€.
This is the reason for India’s military strength and posture…and I don’t need to remind you that Indian army is NOT a Hindu army…
4. Separately, I don’t agree with you that agriculture is the solution to India’s development…The solution is (in my opinion) rapidly building a large and sustainable manufacturing base and creating opportunities in the services sector (which can only happen if we introduce large-scale reforms in education and public health).
India’s strength is its people…But an underfed, malnourished, unhealthy and unskilled population is NOT an asset…it is a liability. And we must face up to that.
5. Finally, I would love to read your comments on these two posts: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/03/12/darul-uloom-war-on-islamism/ AND https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/08/01/tackling-terrorism/
6. By the way, Tarique, you should consider joining one of the many new political parties that are being formed…We already have Mahesh here who is with BPD, Geeta who is with PPI and Sanjeev Sabhlok who started FTI…
Please consider joining one or more of these groups…here is the link: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/05/22/lets-come-together-to-build-a-new-and-proud-india/
See also: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/01/politics-nuts-and-blots/
Look forward to your thoughts.
Friends we all agree that this India is not what we all wanted or dream of ever. Present Indian situation is not were we want our children to grow and see the world. Let’s keep aside all our ego, beliefs, intelligence, past experience and information. Let’s see the practical situation. All Indian population which includes Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian is victim of exploitation. No matter what religion one follow one way or other they got exploited.
Hindus feel there is no job for us as quota is there for others, other community is getting more then what we are, this is Hindustan but Hindus are poor here, govt. only listens to other community.
Muslim think there is no education for us. Indian people don’t respect our belief. This is not our country. We are not getting good things of life here. There is discrimination to us because we are less in number then Hindus.
Sikh thinks there should be separate country for us. Others are not giving what we deserve fully.
Christen think nobody is doing anything for us. We are very small in number so we should be pamper more. Our religion is above others and betters then others.
Can anyone tell me what is common in all four thinking or say our thinking. We are only thinking about ourselves and only our religion. We are not sad because we are not getting something, but because we feel others are getting it. But the truth is others are suffering equally. We all are suffering and fighting among ourselves. We are abusing each other and killing each other. We never try to solve this problem; instead we add fuel to fire from our side. We all know what happened in past. There is no point is remembering it. If someone made mistake in past it is not necessary we continue to repeat it. We should learn from past and rectify the wrong decision or step taken by them. Past is always there to guide not for fight. What is passed is passed, no matter how much u try u can’t bring it back. We should accept this fact and work for future.
Politicians are a very smart breed of human. It is not easy to be a politician. One has to kill his will, emotions, and in return u has to be cunning like fox. No matter what happen to society one should only think about his benefit. Politics says u should rule by every mean, by hook or crook. Shaam(by mutually), daam(by money), dand(by punishment), bhead(by blackmail) are real principal of politics. So what politicians are doing?
They are spreading poison of religion difference among every society; they are dividing every Indian by telling that you are superior then other. We are with you go ahead. We the innocent people don’t understand there web and fall into it either for emotional issue or for personal benefit or for religious issue or in name of country or many other name. this all are just different ways of dividing people. No political party or politicians are enemy. They just pretend to be enemy or competitor, but in back door picture they all are part of one family. How many times we see one parties MP or MLA join other party. Many muslim hard liner attending BJP ,RSS tea party. BJP leaders dining with muslim or other parties leader. So this is just to make fool off public. And they are enjoying the fruit of power in return. Many small parties or leader who really think and work for public, hardly comes in limelight, because we only want to see big people. Media plays a very big role in this too. Name any institution or agency this poison is everywhere. Media only wanna show what gives them money or help them to get higher TRPs. We never thought what is the situation of arushi’s parents, but we all was interested in knowing who killed her. Media don’t cover or make it national news that daily many children dies because of starvation in India. Media don’t cover china’s influence on states Manipur, Assam, nagaland. Because we never want to see what is happeing there. Politician also wants media to show this false picture of rising India or booming India so they can get more and more loan from World Bank.
Friends what I wanna say here is until we the Indian public, we the so called smart, educated, urban, patriotic, open minded people really don’t come together nothing is gona change. There are always gona differences but we have to overcome those if we really want to do some good to ourselves and society. It is easy to say others to change, but is very difficult to change our self. If we can really learn how to love each other and respect each others feeling we can do what we want to do.
Dear Shri. Tarique,
Let me assure you that all citizens of Bharat are not interested in TRP’s and recogonition. All of us are interested in this Bharat and Bharat alone.
True “Bharatiyas” have not run away throwing away their responsibilities of building a greater Bharat, and set up residences all over the world and now talk of building a new India.
No true Bharatiya will ever consider another Bharatiys a criminal unless he is proved so in a court of Law. All true Bharatiys believe in truth and fairness; not in some illogical Human Rights and such hogwash.
It is fair for every Bhatiya to expect another true Bharatiya to extend his assistance in reaching out to this truth, be he of any way of life.
It is the need of the air for all true Bharatiyas to come forward and establish the truth of terrorism or its untruth, whatever it may be, and take the result in the right spirit.
Let us not bash each other by calling our beliefs, names or any derogatory terms. If I am a sinner and is supposed to go to purgatory, LEAVE ME ALONE.
If each one has his space and respects the space of another, nobody can exploit another.
Let us work together to get rid of our poisonous past and make a new beggining.
Wars are fought not because of thinkers. It is because nobody understands and respects the thinker.
In the Mahabharat nobody listened to Bhishma and Krishna. In the Ramayana, it is greed ansd nothing else.
Thinkers will not make any difference as long as we play low with the other person.
Regards,
vck
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shantanu i feel u have not properly understood some of the points i was discussing in a rational manner without any religious bias.and i think i can clear a lot of doubts on what i have posted. as a muslim who has lived in a crowded muslim ghetto all his life i know a lot of things from close quarters better than what u read in newspapers.u say i cited afroze as a defense , infact i presented him as a irresponsible educated muslim youth. the SIMI for ur information has no following among common muslims and u can conduct an independent survey on it.a lot of former SIMI member are mostly unemployed youths , a few of them police informers now , a few petty criminals . SIMI was formerly the jamaat e islami . after the demolition of babri mosque the government put a ban on rss and jamaat e islami both. then it assumed the SIMI cover. the SIMI members are mostly followers of the ahle hadeeth sect who hardly constitute 2 percent of muslims. they are disliked by a majority of indian muslims for their rigid stance on religion.as a common muslim residing in a muslim ghetto it is a very difficult task to pinpoint criminals to the police. most criminals here are highly connected and have a good understanding with the top ‘sahebs’ or cops. shantanu u may not agree with me but u have to be born a muslim in a ghetto to feel it.i advise u to do a survey of reay road in mumbai which has a large number of illegal bangladeshi migrants. they have polluted the place completely with dirty slums, squat on the roads, deal in narcotics openly, prostitution, theft etc etc. yet shantanu i challenge u to get these people booked in prison for life according to indian laws in narcotics . forget a common poerless muslim here , even a crusading upright hindu has tried and failed here . why ?? i m using hindu or muslim here and not indian here only because i was asked ‘wat is a common muslim doing to prevent crimes in his own community’.the police here has shown the bangla illegal migrants the loopholes in the system to acquire a ration card.the most shocking part now….a bangladeshi thief was not feeling well and could not go out to his work for a few days. a police van arrives to his slum , he is dragged out and mercilessly beaten up by the cops and branded a ‘kaamchor’. i was witness to a sight where i saw cops covering their own faces with a plastic raincoat ,push the overloaded handcart of a thief in reay road. we all know and have seen the rise of underworld elements. they exist in both hindu and muslim areas. yet both common hindu and muslims helplessly watch them and can do nothing. dawood ibrahim or SIMI are not the common closely family knit simple people . they are a part of a highly corrupt political system. they are not a religion they are active members of a secular ‘indian corupption organization’.the explosive used in the mumbai blasts were cleared by five customs officials who accepted ten times more bribe after they discovered it was RDX. LIKE COMMON SUFFERING HINDUS WE COMMON MUSLIMS ARE SUFFERING TOO.shantanu u must remember that the sara sahara complex where prime municipal land was leased for a pittance to the dawood ibrahim family was signed during the shiv sena regime when the family was charged with ‘war against the nation’shantanu, wat did u do to stop that deal ???
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alienation and fear is nothing new in human society. if u remember i looked at it from a human angle and not from a religious angle.i cited examples of blacks in america, east europeans, arabs within arab societies, and the fear and alienation of pashtuns and baluchis in muslim pakistan from sindhis and punjabis.mostly lack of education is most among muslims in north india as it suffered the most during partition especially UP’s and biharis. mother india has very few problems with south indian muslims.women illiteracy is a very big issue to be addressed and exists a lot in muslims and tribal hindu women too.the problem today we face is that women get exploited in all fields whether in modest ‘burkha’ or the high fashion world of ‘bikini’. but the bikini is more glamorous and perfumes and the black burkha is smelly and dirty for ridicule.the ‘veil’ in muslims is a symbol of modesty yet it was manipulated as a symbol of slavery by clerics. despite all this pakistan produced benazir bhutto, bangladesh gave khalida zia or shiekh hasina and dubai has more female members in government today.women all over the world will continue to get exploited yet come out with honour intact. after all a woman is a MOTHER.
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shantanu , there is nothing sinister to see about my grave concern about a strong military presence in the muslim world.i do not see it as a threat to the world but as a confidence building excercise among weaker sections of muslim nations. i never see muslims as one nation as u think. even the united nations in many cases replaced european soldiers with muslim soldiers as peacekeepers in muslim areas of conflict. it helped the locals overcome fear .and the united nations are far better equipped to think than me.today ,in india they are talking to increase the number of muslim officers to watch over the ghettos.why ??he will get a better inside view and will be able to convince the common muslims about siding with the law.
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trans national loyalties as most of us think has nothing to do loyalties to one’s nation. it is mostly found among religious groups. for example , i saw a big concern among hindus for a hindu temple being demolished in russia. same was the case when hindus face some trouble in other nations. america did not give visa to narendra modi after there were attacks on churches in gujarat.muslims too like all others feel for their co-religionists . i don’t think so too much should be read into it
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shantanu, to conclude i m a proud indian, proud of my large powerful army, proud of my sacrificing poor farmers who toil against all odds , proud of our indian culture which promotes great family values.shantanu, please don’t make the mistake of underestimating our agricultural sector. it is our biggest guarantee to survive as a nation.don’t blindly try to ape the chinese reforms in the industrial sector. i have visited china two times and can tell it is agriculture that has kept chinese society intact there too and the industrial sector has a long way to go before they can break even with the very high amount of world bank loans thet have acquired.talking about industrial style of development u must know it has its risks. it involves too much borrowing and taking dictations from large banks how u should spend ur borrowed money. take the example of the american crisis today. the industrial and growth sector there borrowed very heavily and promised heaven for the investors. what happened ??? they ended even eating up the money of many middle class american citizens.so let us first secure our agricultural strenghts tight before we move forward. jaihind. jaibharatmata. satyameva jayate.
I am very worried about what is happening in India. I think what we are seeing at play is a multitude of geopolitical forces who are vying for control in India. The country is being split wide open for a second and more complete takeover
true, india’s strenght are its people . do u know after our agricultural sector our 2nd largest GDP are our skilled and unskilled labour strenght. our indian overseas labour force and technicians earn and send back home more money than what our industries like reliance, tata or birla create in india with all help from government sector. shantanu , r u listening ???
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starting a political party is no solution to our problems. at best we can create awareness amongst our own and those who care to listen to us. indian politics in times to comes will require more funding than an american election. a time will come in indian politics where multinationals companies will pump in huge money to get their choice in. as a bunch of upright young men you stand just no chance to survive here. the clean up process will take another 100 years if we start from today. the starting point is to start explaining things to those who have time to listen to u.
The fact cannot be denied that innocent muslim youths can be victim of unfair treatment by our police. Remember, in the early days of Punjab insurgency the sole reason of anger of the Sikh youth was police brutallity.
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jagmohan i was in school in 1984 and was a witness to sikhs being teased and taunted in school,and called ‘terrorists’ when indira gandhi was assasinated. my friends harpreet and gurpreet would almost be into tears.
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i advise a lot of people to read the excellent short stories by one of india’s greatest short story writers mr. saadat hasan manto. his stories were mostly written in pre independence india and during the days of partition. u will notice what he wrote during that time are as relevent today as when he wrote them.his stories were all written in urdu language and translated in english in a book called ‘mottled dawn’. read it as it says a lot .saadat hasan maanto was truly one among us. he inspires me to write though i am a college dropout . his writings could have a great positive influence on u too.
Its important to be sensitive and have empathy – and we also need to look for solutions to the violence and hatred emanating out of religion that is threatening our democracy. In the absence of Secular Democracy we can forget India – there will only be chaos and barbarism or medieval religious backwardness – what does not evolve dissolves
So what do we do to re-establish secular democracy?
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
Tarun, vck, Nishka, Jagmohan, Tatichawla and Tarique…thanks for continuing the discussion..
I will add my thoughts at some point later today.
Meanwhile, one request: If you could combine your comments on a single post in one, it helps the flow of the discussion and ease of reading.
Thanks.
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@ Tarique: As you have mentioned, the “highly corrupt political system” is probably the single biggest factor that could change things.
That was what prompted my suggestion to you to consider joining a political party…we must take responsibility for the mess we find ourselves in
As for your comments on agriculture, can I request you to join the discussion here: https://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/18/right-left-economic-policy/
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@ All: In the end, the solution to most of the problems and challenges that we are discussing here must come through change in policies and governance…and I see no other option than getting actively involved in politics…
Writing about these things can only catalyse the change…it is unlikely to precipitate it.
More on this later.
Today i.e. 30th Sept 2008
I received a phone call at 12.30am from one of my office workers, that a riot has broken out in their area, which is called as Rabodi, in Thane city. It is an area on Majority Muslim population… I immediately rushed to the place
The riot started over Dassera Pandal issue … which was burnt down and further the riot inflated into a huge scale by explosion of gas cylinders burning of vehicles and burning of houses of both hindus and muslim.
Finaly a point was reached at two hours of waiting at 2.30am i asked my office workers families(all muslims) to vacate the area and come along with me to our office premisis, as we ourselves and the police were under attack from the voilent mob. Luckily myself and others with just minor bruses escaped..
The area is still tensed, with two military units and 1 company of Rapid action force deployed..and a large police force a curfew is in place.
After 1992 riots this,today was my closest encounter .. or even worse ones.. after seeing with own eyes how the people were running helter skelter and groups of 20s attacking randomly and burning.. sent shiver into my spines..
I cant even define.. how the small kids are bearing with this truama who were along with us.
I would invite all the bloggers to once enter a hindu muslim riot area.. you would understand and before typing anything against any religion.. you would think ten times!
I hope the matter cools down by tommorow and truely wish my employees Eid Mubarak
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/sep/300908-Thane-riots-Navratri-mandap-Rabodi-area.htm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Riots_in_Thane_over_Navratri_pandal/rssarticleshow/3542334.cms
जय हिंद ! जय महाराषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤° !!
Mr Tarique, Islam did not enter India through peaceful means as claimed by you. Soon after conquering Sindh, the Arab conqueror/terrorist Mohammad bin Qasim asked the people either to accept Islam or get killed. This is History. Though there is no provision in Islam to allow Hindus to retain their faith, (only Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians were permitted as Mohammed believed only those people had holy books) Qasim allowed Hindus to follow their faith in lieu of payment of Jaziya for practical reasons. All the turk rulers of Afghanistan, beginning from Mahmud of Ghazni to Mohammad of Ghori attacked, killed, raped and enslaved Hindus and destroyed their temples in the name of jihad. After smashing the idol at Somanath, Mahmud sent a piece of the idol to be placed on the passage of the chief mosque at Ghazni to be trotted upon by believers. If this act was not permitted by Islam, why did not the Calipha admonished Mahmud? Mr Tarique please go the website http://www.faithfreedom.org/ maintained by Ali Sina, who has studied the Koran, Hadis and all scripture of Islam to know all about Islam. He provides evidence to what ever he says.
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srinivas mohamed bin qasim invaded the hindu king of sindh by going against the orders of the caliphate.he was recalled and tried in the caliphate court and finally beheaded. after the bloody partition of india and pakistan , mohamed bin qasim was presented by muslim fundamentalist as a true warrior of islam. they hid the truth of what happened to him after the invasion. mahmud of ghazni was not a member of the islamic caliphate. he was from the turk mongol ancestory of invaders and during his time the islamic caliphate had lost almost all its influence and had descended into chaos. the turk mongol invaders were associated with loot, rape and plunder from very old days in history. attila the hun invader was one of them and he ravaged europe even when islam was not born.changhez khan and halaku khan were from the shamaist sect of buddhism and are known for their bloody invasions. buddhism is a very peaceful religion. it shows the mongol invaders invaded for bread and butter no matter what religion they followed in any time in history.mahmud ghazni, taimur ghori all belonged to the mongol ancestory and not to the islamic caliphate.
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srinivas islam came to india through kerala by very peaceful means during the lifetime of prophet mohamed and not through the seventeen year old qasim as we r told to spread hate and anger among religions.
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mohamed bin qasim was punished for invading the peaceful hindu king of sindh is a fact no matter how many different versions a section of politically motivated muslims try to present of the causes of his death.
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bloody invasions all over the world had nothing to do with any religion in the world. they existed even before islamic religion was born.invasions was a means of bread and butter for landlocked tribes, in some cases as a means of power and domination and in many cases about controlling the trade route of the olden days.
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if mongol turk invasion was about spreading islam in india can u show me a single mosque in india built by mahmud or ghori or taimur.the mongols or mughals ruled india for more than 650 years. show me atleast 65 mosques built by them during their reign in india ???sometimes a lot of hue and cry is made by liars and people start believing it as a gospel truth.
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my deepest condolence to mahesh for what he had to go through because of the actions of a few misguided muslim youths. mahesh ur positive thoughts even in such times inspires me to give all love and respect to the majority peace loving hindu brothers. mahesh i salute u and promise u that if need be i will lay down my life to protect a hindu in trouble.
Mohammed bin Qasim was executed by the calipha as the daughters of Dahir captured by Qasim to be sent to the harem of the calipha told the calipha that Qasim had deflowered them. The calipha was angry as Qasim had raped these young girls meant for him. For your information during the time of Mohammad the founder of Islam, only the whole of present day Saudi Arabia was forcibly converted and only during the time of calipha Omar and Othman the neigbhouring countries like Syria, Iraq and Persia was captured and Islam was forced upon the people. hence we find the Zorostrianins coming to India to escape religious prosecution.
Mr. Tarique I can understand your plight. Every one knows how Islam treat its women folks, killing animals in the name of sacrifice, killing if people want to leave Islam and daily repeating five times in your prayer that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah. (does this not indicate that the gods worshiped by hindus and christians are false)Thanks to internet and Q channel no more bluffing by people like you that Islam is a peaceful religion will carry weight. The mullahs of Pakistan are scholars in Islamic law and know better about Islam than any one else. Probably you feel embrassed by the way Muslim behave and try to defend it. The problem is not with Muslims but with Islam. Once again I repeat, to visit http:/www.faithfreedom.org to know about the true nature of Islam .
Tarique and Srinivas: Thanks for continuing the discussion.
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@ Tarique: Just a couple of points re. your comments.
1. In your comment directed to Srinivas, you may be inadvertently confusing race (Mongols) with faith (Islam). I felt that Srinivas’ main point was the destruction and the havoc wrought by invaders in the name of Islam in India…not so much whether they were Mongols or belonged to the Caliphate. And not even about whether the true motive was religious (as in the sense of crusades) or socio-political (as you have mentioned).
2. Secondly, I would be very grateful for any links/references to Islam in Kerala during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammed (presume this was something more than a few Arab traders coming and settling in Malabar).
Thanks.
Let me close by wishing you and your loved ones Eid Mubarak!
shantanu i m not confusing anything. and which invaders are u talking about who did wrong things in the name of islam.the mughals ???shantanu don’t forget that 80 percent of the mughal army were proud hindu rajputs and the mughal success in india was mostly because of them. and did the caliphate or muslim invaders invade kerala or tamil nadu ?? how did islam spread there ???spreading false and hateful stories is a passion with some people and they know they are harming themselves by believing in their own propoganda. even i can find humilating faults with other religions regarding treatment of women, animal sacrifice
and their modes of worship. but i m not here at all for that purpose. i came here to bridge misunderstandings among the hindu and muslim faith .to bridge the gap of hate to that of love and respect.islam needs no advocate and has survived and grown for 1400 years.i dont need to learn my islam from any q channel or any pakistani. i m mature enough to know if islam is good or bad for me. i m a proud muslim and proud of my islamic faith no matter how much propaganda u unleash on us.i asked if any ghori, timur, or mahmud ghazni built a mosque in india to spread islam. no answer .they say islam was forced on the people of arabia.if that was true why did the forced converts not leave the fold of islam when the caliphate collapsed. according to srinivas all muslims in the world are forced converts. if that was true how come today when muslim power is at its lowest ebb, people are still sticking to islam.islam is growing at a fast face around the globe despite grave charges on us.the first mosque in india was built in kerala by a hindu king who converted to islam.the cheraman juma masjid is the first mosque built in india at around 629 a.d.see the cheraman juma masjid on youtube also
@ Tarique: We were talking about Mongols and the invading Turks, not Mughals. Not sure if their (i.e. invading Mongols, Turks) armies were predominantly Hindu Rajputs (or converted Hindu Rajputs) or someone else.
Anyway, this is not the right thread to discuss this.
I note that you are here to “bridge misunderstandings among the Hindu and Muslim faith…to bridge the gap of hate to that of love and respect.”
I welcome that with open arms.
Let us work together to build a proud India.
Jai Hind!
Tarique says that he needs not learn about Islam from Q tv but does not hesitate to use the news from The Pakistani Spectator to speak about a mosque which as the news itself tell was build upon a temple and hence faces east. http://www.pakspectator.com/second-oldest-mosque-in-the-world/. As all so called peace loving, secular muslims Mr Tarique does not have answers for
1. Why your daily prayer has the sentence “There is no god worthy of worship except Allah” Will not this hurt non Muslims?
2. Why apostasy in Islam is punishable with death? Only members leaving an underworld gang face this threat.
3.Normally people cover their private parts. By insisting muslim women to cover from head to toe, will it not convey a meaning that Muslim men consider the whole body of their as women as a private part?
As regard to Mohammad Ghori constructing a mosque visit the mosque near Qutb Minar called Quwat ul Islam mosque, meaning victory to Islam built by Qutub ud din Aibak, the commander of Mohammad Ghori by destroying a temple there soon after he captured Delhi.
It is the threat of death as I have mentioned which prevents Muslims from leaving Islam and nothing else. True colours of so called peace loving and secular muslims can be known only when they are in majority.
Dear Sir,
The whole subject is becoming curiouser and curiouser. I think history has been so distorted by the “Educationsts” that I am unable to distinguish the truth from fiction.
Unless we have a genuine “History” of the invasions and not the “Whiteman edited and discordant one” many of the truths will create destuctive mentalities in the eyes of the people of the world.
A few topics would amplify my problem. Let us take the concept of the “Aryan Invasion”.
History has been distorted for more than a century, and even today it is being discussed and people are wondering today whether that took place at all. They are also questioning the motive for this distortion of history. Is it for the purpose of conversion or was it unleashed to keep the natives busy sorting out the Dravidian vs Aryan problem while it was systematically being raped?
We have heard abouth the bravery of the western “Cowboys”? Is it really true or is it fiction? Was Custers last stand true or was it made melodramtic for public appreciation? Was he a mass murderer of American natives or was his role shown different for another cover up.
In view of the untruth of the matter of “weapons of mass destruction” I have my doubts whether the “English Historians” really gave out the truth or prepared “Fanciful documents” for our consumption and their own greatness!
Let us for a start take the bull by the horns. No religion involved, just history by itself. Let us call the bluff as to the question “Was the Taj Mahal a Hindu temple”.
I think enlightened persons like Shri. Tarique , who has played a great part in attempting to get history in a different perspective ” Qaim was executed for invading the peaceful Hindu Kingdom in Gujarat” – this a new perspective, Is this true? If it is thru documented sources and available encryptions, let us take a call also on various subjects.
We need a strong Bharat. Let us try to make a change in getting history right.
Regards,
vck
Thanks tarique on your kind words. Well nothing to feel sorry about, it is just coward fanatics from both the sides using religion as a blanket cover to incite to voilence and which resulted in endangering innocent people of both the religion.
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I am just dazzled that all the bloggers are so good in their history… how do you get so much of time to read and mugg up his much stuff??? … “गडे मà¥à¤°à¥à¤¦à¥‡ कà¥à¤¯à¥‹à¤‚ उखाड़ रहे हो ? “ who cares who invaded what centuries back.. Its now that matters.
Just because some books and some people have written something about some fanatics , it doesnt becomes binding to follow it and play it like a auto play tape..
I am writing on the blog from past year and half.. but still i am not able to find one person who has experienced anything first hand and writing his/her opinion based on that experience…
A bomb blast:… we condemn we condemn..n abuses against UPA or NDA
On Kandhamal:… talk against christain minorities .. and be double standards by using christain services in form of schools and hospitals
Jamai Nagar: : talk against islam and all talk about past…
Kashmir: talk about kashmir.. without ever even been there…
Half off you dont even use your original names on the blog.. as if a Gay person hiding his sexual preference from the whole world.
Dont be brainwashed by some writing(history),a book, a tv channel or a persons speeches.. Build your opinion on personal expereinces.. not second hand…
I wonder how many of you will openly sit in a press conference and talk about any of the issues discussed over here or in any public domain or lead an actual issue with real people!.
Anyways the reason i am frustrated is not because none of the bloggers have ever seen R of riot or expereinced T of terrorist upclose, but none of you intellects have a concrete answers to the present problems or no concrete output at the end of the debate on any of the thread on the blog….which could help not so textbook intelluctual politician like myself could learn and voice out in public
We are just like a crowd in barber shop..
जय हिंद ! जय महाराषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤° !!
@ Mahesh: I am compelled to respond on behalf of the silent majority here..
You are making sweeping generalisations and – if I can say so – being slightly presumptuous in your assumptions…
I will say no more at this point…
As for having practical suggestions/ concrete output, did you read the post on “Tackling Terrorism: One Step at a Time”?
P.S. At some point, I would love to sit in a press conference and talk about these issues in public…and hopefully that time will come soon…
More later.
Mahesh: Allow me to address your comment # 43 in a little more detail (and here I am speaking mostly for myself).
But am just dazzled that all the bloggers are so good in their history… how do you get so much of time to read and mugg up his much stuff??? …
Mahesh, for me, history is first of all, a passion. Second, we ignore history at our own peril. History is a great way to understand what went wrong and how we can avoid some mistakes (of course the past is not always a perfect guide to the future)…Thirdly, our history (that is the history that I learnt in school), I now realise – is to a large extent based on presumptions, misconceptions and distortions that have never been fully addressed. I see this effort as a way of educating myself afresh.
I am writing on the blog from past year and half.. but still i am not able to find one person who has experienced anything first hand and writing his/her opinion based on that experience…
Here you are way off the mark…I personally know a few readers here who have been through a riot and terrorist attacks…they may not share their experiences – either because they do not wish to…or what they feel has largely been expressed already…
I don’t wish to talk too much about myself at this stage…but a large part of what I write, is based on personal experience, observation and conversations with people who know what they are talking about…enough said on this for now.
On Kandhamal:… talk against christain minorities ..
I don’t know why you felt that we were talking against Christian minorities…I have nothing against Christians or Muslims or Zorastrians…They are all part of Bharat and deserve a place in this society…What I am against is aggressive proselytization techniques…
Jamia Nagar: Was not about Islam at all…It was about vote-bank politics, breakdown in law and order etc.
Kashmir: talk about kashmir.. without ever even been there…
What makes you say that?! Pl. read this
Half off you dont even use your original names on the blog.. as if a Gay person hiding his sexual preference from the whole world.
Does that matter? I don’t agree with the “gay person†analogy.
Build your opinion on personal expereinces.. not second hand…
True to an extent…but not all opinions can be based on first-hand experience. If that was true, a lot of us will not be able to comment on the banking crisis in the US, for example!
I wonder how many of you will openly sit in a press conference and talk about any of the issues discussed over here or in any public domain or lead an actual issue with real people!.
I addressed this in my earlier comment…but to reiterate…”At some point, I would love to sit in a press conference and talk about these issues in public…and hopefully that time will come soon…”
Anyways the reason i am frustrated is not because none of the bloggers have ever seen R of riot or expereinced T of terrorist upclose, but none of you intellects have a concrete answers to the present problems or no concrete output at the end of the debate on any of the thread on the blog….which could help not so textbook intelluctual politician like myself could learn and voice out in public
I mentioned earlier about the post on “Tackling Terrorism†– which you can (and should) voice out in public as steps to counter this growing threat.
But I feel you are missing an important (and bigger) point here Mahesh. Politics is not merely action. It is also thought, theory, ideology and principles.
Without some underlying ideology, principles or guiding philosophy, you may well become a politician but you will struggle when dealing with issues that present a choice or issues that need you to take a certain action/decision.
In the absence of such guiding principles, how will you decide which option to choose? which course to take? what would strengthen the values you cherish? and what would bring you closer to your ideal society and the country that you really dream about?
To conclude, intellectual discussion has its place – as has work on the ground…I know you are doing a lot of the latter…and I hope this blog can help you at least a little bit in the former.
Jai Hind!
Hi to All
I had been posting comments on this blog,… if I am not wrong since 2005. I have always enjoyed this blog and see high calibre of this blog as well as of Shantanu. If tomorrow he comes up with any ground work I will trust him over other politicians in the matter of national issues. He is one of the few who cares for the country and is very concerned about it. I salute him!
Readers comes on the blogs because they are screaming they want some one to hear their voice, they feel the same way as what blogger is posting. Where they can share the similar thoughts. where they can raise the voice together. Because they have gone through the hell.
I dont think those who have personally not seen or experienced will be bothered reading and commenting on the blog.
And for the comments of Mahesh, on riots and terrorists. When the time comes politician too becomes rioters and terrorists. Did not MNS of maharastra become rioters?. Did not Mr. Patil supported them by “Aamchi Mumbai and Aamchi manus” slogan?. Where was his feelings? Are this politicians are building India or dividing India? Is this kind of leaders are we raising and supporting?
When the time comes they serve their interests.
Readers, bloggers and historians are better than this politicians. One of my mission in life is breaking vicious circle of politicians. They have to purify to serve the nation or else they are just playing with the people of India and the public of maharastra.
Jai Hind!
shantanu u r again getting confused with my reference to turk mongol invaders and mughals. all are the same tribes and ancestories. the turk mongol invaders in central asia were known as ‘tatars’ and even in persia. in india they were called mughals. in arabia they were called ‘seljuk’.to the accusation that early invasions of the caliphate from saudi arabia to syria to iraq was done with the sole purpose to spread islamic religion is one sided and biased.there were many reasons for the caliphate army to invade syria and iraq and persia. one was the strong influence of byzantine imperialists who had enslaved the arabian peninsula for years. secondly , the seljuk turks would always loot on the trade routes. most of these ruthless invaders constantly caused great trouble to the growth of the arab region and its people.the persian empire or the sassanid empire was always a threat to the arab region with its strong army always at its doorstep and issuing threats. these invasions were geopolitical in nature to the survival of an arab state with strong stakes in the world trade during that time. i think history should be seen only from geopolitical angles and through socio economic reasonings. if u look closely look and study most invading armies u will find they caused maximum damage to people of their own religion and faith . babur did not invade india to kill hindus and spread islam. he invaded india to dethrone the shahs and lodhis in delhi who were muslims too.same way if u study the history of invaders in many other regions around the world u will find the maximum they killed or looted were people of their own religion and faith.i never look at history from the religious angle because it provides me with no logics or proper answers to my doubts.
if u study the history of mongols , u will find there are christian, muslim, buddhists, persian mughal invaders who strethced from the steppes of mongolia to central asia to the persian empires to the nations in eastern europe. a lot of hordes of people of every religion suffered at their hands.
srinivas i feel sad u have ur mind filled with hate just because u r inspired by stories or history told in a way to create hate among religions.
to ur 1st query ‘there is no god except allah’. allah is a universal god of all humanity whom u call ‘ishwar’ ‘bhagwan’ ‘daata’. u r falling into the trap of a small section of muslim fundamentalists by raising this question. remember the great shivaji maharaj after carefully studying the holy koran put the mughals to shame by quoting from the koran that ishwar was ‘rabbulallameen-meaning lord of the entire universe’ and not ‘rabbul muslimeen’ meaning lord of the muslims.i need not say more as shivaji maharaj answered that query for me. a lot of muslim fundamentalists try to present shivaji maharaj in a poor light , yet it is a historical fact that shivaji maharaj had very high regards for islam.
to ur second query about ‘apostasy’ show me a person punished for it in recent times.
as far as covering women women from head to toe , it was initially a gesture for empowerment of women and not slavery.a ‘veil stood for modesty and respect for women along with a share of parental property rights granted in islam. compare that to the pornography sites on the internet today mostly from europe and other nations. what do u find more insulting to women ?? u must remember that before the advent of islam women in arabia were buried alive and their private parts mutilated to show they were devil’s creation. if islam veiled them it meant empowering them in the deserts where their lives were not safe. hindu fundamentalist propoganda always tries to show any muslim ruler as one trying only to spread his religion without any ethics and mostly end up with egg on their face.
u proudly show the world the ‘qutub minar’ whose foundation stone was laid by qutbuddin aibak as a architectural masterpiece to attract tourists in delhi and on the other hand u accuse the same person of destroying a hindu temple to built a mosque on it. why ?? why glorify the qutub minar as a tourist attraction in the first place ?? u say the muslims are scared to leave islam scared of a death threath. is that true ?? islam is the fastest growing religion today in america and europe .
rearding muslims showing their true colours when in a majority then tell me what kind of threat do u face from indonesia,the most populous muslim nation in the world. out of the 57 muslim majority nations in the world today only saudi arabia follows islamic laws today and that too only in parts. the other muslim nations follow socialist, communist, democratic, and even military dictatorship like most parts of the world today.
@ Tarique…You have a point…and I was wrong about the distinction between Turk/Mongols and Mughals…
Thanks for setting the record straight…
One lives and learns…
I welcome your thoughts on other aspects of our history too..
In particular, the controversy around Taj Mahal…What do you think about that? (Have a look at this post )
P.S. I am wondering whether it may be better to carry this discussion on a separate thread.
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
tarique: I have moved your comment here since it is the more appropriate thread for discussing Taj Mahal.
from jaipur blasts to delhi blasts to bangalore to the jamia encounters and major arrest of young students as terrorist to the anti christian riots across the country. what is going on ???it has spread to thane and dhule in maharashtra and is threathening assam and furthur systematically spread to the entire nation. who is behind all this ??? there is a method to this madness.in may 2009 we are due for general elections and in november this year 4 states go for assembly polls namely rajasthan, madhya pradesh, chattisgarh and delhi.if u take a close look u will notice that in all these 4 states there is a straight fight between congress and BJP.the results of these 4 states will decide which way the general public will be voting in may 2009 elections. if u notice the vote bank in these 4 states u will find that that there is hardly even 10 perecent average minority votes in these states.it is an all out contest for the majority hindu votes. minority votes will hardly have any great impact in all these 4 states.the BJP sees this as a great opportunity to strike back to power on the hindutva wave and majority hindu votes. but here lies a great problem for the BJP. it was already in power in rajasthan , MP, and chattisgarh which had more than 90 percent hindus. despite pro hindutva sloganeering they provided a failed administeration in these 3 states. it is no secret that rajastan . MP, AND CHATTISGARH have been big failures on the governance front by BJP.SO WHAT DOES THE BJP DO TO TURN THE TIDE ??? unleash a nationwide propaganda on muslim terrorism and conversions as they have nothing to lose, and if their formula suucceeds they could be in delhi in may 2009.this can be closely seen by the activities of VHP and bajrang dal in riot affected areas . their modus operandi ‘ after a riot breaks out and hindus and muslims who have been living together for years in the same area for years turn enemies over a small fight.when the police arrives a few policemen get injured or even killed. the injured policeman or the killed one comes as a blessing in disguise for VHP OR BAJRANG DAL to spread their hate agenda. they start on a door to door donation drive for the deceased or injured policeman and all along spreading rumours on common peace loving hindus how a muslim mob is on its way to murder and rape hindus. they assure the mostly peace loving hindus ‘don’t worry we will die for u and fight these evil muslims but do donate generously for the dead policeman who was a hindu too’. this propaganda is used to convince common peace loving hindus that an armed policeman is not safe in this country then what will happen to u ?? suddenly VHP and bajrang dal take over the mantle of ‘protectors’ and it becomes an excuse for them to loot and burn down both hindu and muslim shops in partnership with muslim criminal elements.u will notice that muslim criminal elements start throwing stones at poicemen to start a riot too. the peace loving common muslims helplessly watch and later become the unsuspecting victims of this pre planned ‘tamasha’.this same pattern is followed to start a hindu muslim riot today and the biggest victims are those who have nothing to do with violence in either communities.so why is the congress quiet on all this u may ask ?? the answer lies in the age old belief of congressmen that the more insecure the indian minorities become the more they will be compelled to vote for the congress.the congress has its eyes fixed on the 2009 elections. it calculates that in 2009 many indian states who have 20 percent or more muslim numbers will have no other choice but to vote for the congress out of insecurity.remember the 2004 elections where ‘gujarat riots’ became a referendum in other parts of india to return the congress back to power. in uttar pradesh , bihar,assam, maharashtra, karnataka , andhra , kerala and west bengal the muslim vote share is average 20 to 22 percent ,strong enough to change the power equations.besides the congress has indulged in large scale corruption in the corporate and financial sector which in the near future which will witness the middle class savings vanish from various floted mutual funds and other schemes.remember the UTI SCANDAL DURING THE BJP REGIME.
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Dear Sir,
OOps Tarique is getting a lot straight. tarique let me take up your line later. It was great to read your analysis.
Regards,
vck
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@ tarique/ vck: I have moved the questions/remarks about George Soros to the appropriate thread…
I will respond in a day or two…In the meantime, there are many readers here who are probably better versed than me in these matters…I encourage them to respond to Tarique’s remarks…
***
@ vck: Could you pl. add your thoughts on Soros to the economic debate thread…and keep this thread to only discuss the encounter…?
Thanks
***
@ tarique: I like your thinking and your arguments…[well, most of them 🙂 ].
We really do need more straight and clear-thinking people like you in politics…I hope you will re-consider my earlier suggestion of having a look at this post and joining one or more of the groups that have been mentioned:
Lets come together to build a *new* and proud India
.
Some excerpts from “Behind the Batla House shootout” by Praveen Swami:
To read the story in full, including how investigators finally unearthed the links that led to Batla House, pl. click here
Politics of terror, Modi takes on PM
“When I pressed for inclusion of terrorism in the agenda, the government just mentioned extremism. Government does not know the difference between terrorism and extremism. It is a very casual approach. The Government should have discussed terrorism today,” Modi said.
Addressing the NIC, the Hindutva poster-boy called for “isolating”, people, groups and “the so called intellectuals supporting terrorism in the name of protection of human rights” and lashed out at those who talk about the “vulnerability of a particular section.”
more here.
http://timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=18360
I wonder if Jamia’s VC is still keen to represent someone who was apparently admitted on the basis of false certificates:
shantanu, as i mentioned in my earlier blog , i still maintain the jamia enciounter is fake. i do not also give a clean chit to the youths. it is possibble they may have committed some other small or bigger crime as youths and got fixed in ‘jamia encounter’ as terrorists.17 year old sajid had 7 bullets pumped in his brains at point blank range. this is just not possible in a terrorist encounter where trained specialists are involved. the autopsy reports suggest that m.c . sharma was shot in his abdomen from only few inches away. this can be done only by the cops covering him from behind in a jamia type encounter.that the bullets exit sharma’a body shows that he was shot from milimetres away.in the mumbai train blasts the government concluded that 15 pakistani nationals belonging to lashkar e toiba carried out suicide attacks. today they say ‘indian mujahideen’ was involved.so it means the few arrested and jailed till today are innocents ??we need to learn lessons from ‘arushi’ ‘jamia’ bihari student attacks’ that ‘youngistaan’ is vulnerable to political and media mafia attacks irrespective of caste creed and religion or gender.who next ?? our ‘infants’ ??jamia encounter as well as arushi murder must be thoroughly and honestly probed by our young educated youths without any bias. in these young dead bodies lies the real answer to the problems our country is facing or will face in future.no matter what the whole world thinks of me , i firmly stand by my view that jamia encounter was ‘fixed’ by some of our high seats in government.
as for shantanu ,trying to bring out a police statement to prove a point , let me remind him that joint commissoner of noida had declared in press conference that arushi’s own father had killed her . later the CBI nailed the servents. everything proved false.
shantanu , r u out to prove the jamia youths as terrorist just because they belong to the muslim faith ?? let me remind u firmly that our government agencies are running a parralel mafia government in this country. who controls our natural resources like mining, forest reserves , coal, iron ore, bauxite reserves,and many more. for years we were made to believe by the media that veerappan sold sandalwood and elephant tusk from the south indian forests.yet no CBI or RAW was competent enough to tell the nation who bought these goods and at what price from veerappan. we indians have a weakness for masala movies and ‘conspiracy soaps’and our media and politicians have over the years catered well to our taste buds.look at our news channels and hear a politicians speech during elections. we r told that our natural resources are mostly in the areas where there is a strong presence of maoists and naxals and the benifits of those resources cannot reach the common man. bihar, orrisa, karnataka, tamilnadu, andhra pradesh and chattisgadh remain poor despite huge natural resreves.
the political system has blinded us to the extent that we have begun to believe on hearsay.will u believe me if i told u that in real veerappan was a ‘decoy’ used to hide the military training activities of TAMIL TIGERS in those jungles. when veerapan supposedly kidnapped actor rajkumar did u care to look at his charter of demands from the government. they were …..release cauvery water to tamil nadu…..intervene in sri lanka for the tamil cause…allow the use of tamil language in karnataka. why will a sandalwood bandit demand all this ???
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Tarique: Pl. have a look at my comment here and/or this report.
Please also look at comment #55 in which I have included some excerpts from “Behind the Batla House shootout” by Praveen Swami.
i witnessed the house where abu bashar lived and his family on telivision. it was like a poor shanty slum with his parents and siblings with torn dirty clothes and hungry faces who barely got a square meal.now, i m told that abu bashar is the chief mastermind of all terror attacks in this country by gujrat police. the delhi police claim it is atiq . the mumbai police claim it is riaz bhatkal.suddenly every police agency in the country is patting itself on its own back after scores of innocent lives have been lost in our country.each agency is claiming that its ‘arrest’ is the real mastermind.
a great myth in our country is the ‘nag panchami’ and snakes becoming ‘mast’ to the sounds of the ‘been’ musical instrument. now in school i m taught that snakes are all deaf and have no hearing capablities. and about the snake drinking milk , we must know that milk is a poison if consumed by snakes.this example is meant to explain that unless we dont become rational in our thoughts we youngsters will continue to live in ‘mental slavery’
Sometimes, after seeing all the protests (by various people, by the messiah Shri Amar Singhji, Teesta, Javed, Shabana etc) I feel all the suspected terrorists should be released and let the time decide if they were really terrorists.
The government cannot simply remain quite amidst all this protests. It should either iterate that batla house encounter was a ‘real’ one and there was valid case against those involved and ask the police to quickly submit the case, or it should agree for a fast track probe against Delhi Police.
The only problem I see is, even proven/self admitted terrorists in Kashmir are labeled as freedom fighters/leaders and the law can’t do any harm to them. Same would happen for the ‘genuine’ terrorists released and who knows some of them may become MLAs, MPs or even ministers!
Look at US of A. After WTC they not just attacked a ‘nation’ but almost destroyed its and its people’s existence without even caring for protests! And we have seen the effect… there has been NOT a single attack in US by Islamic Fundamentalists. They are all ‘scared’!
We all know how US visas applications of ‘certain’ people go through regorous checks and still nobody dares to ask any question against this religion based discrimination.
India should either be completely lenient about terrorism and accept it or be a ‘hard state’ like US or Israel and keep the fundamentalists at bay.
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hemant, u r missing some vital points in ur praise about the the US. AFTER 9/11 the entire amereican airports were declared as no fly zones. it was a law that no american citizen no matter how much rich could fly on airplanes. yet during that same period 300 planeloads of rich arabs and members of the bin laden family were flown out of america to safety. now hemant what will u call this ?? muslim appeasement by the US ? AND hemant , do u know during the cold war days the members of today’s taliban were described as ‘mujahideen ‘ meaning freedom fighters. in a speech in white house the then president described them as ”equivalent to the founding fathers of the american nation”. special ‘halal’ lunch was arranged in the white house for these so called ‘freedom fighters’and they were gifted with hefty funds and promises of sophisticated arms to hit back at the russians.the president was ‘ronald reagan’.and hemant if u have no real idea about israel let me remind u that ‘israel was created by a team of western and capitalist arabs to scare the communist arabs”. take a close look at all those suffering at israel hands and u will find palestine , lebanon, syria, iraq, . all these states were close allies of the former soviet union. israel has never attacked or accused capitalist arab states like saudi arabia or kuwait or dubai or bahrain.hemant u r blindly praising a country that funded terrorism in ur kashmir and punjab borders in the early 80’s.atfer WTC they wanted to bomb afhanistan but after a few attacks on afghanistan they left a 1000 soldiers in kabul and headed for iraq.u know why ?? coz they had been paid by kuwait for revenge of the killing of members of their royal family.a lot of indians cheered when saddam hussain was destroyed , but in their blind hate they forgot a very important emotional fact. that saddam hussain had always supported and cheered for india on the kashmir issue at every world summit when hemant’s america and west were openly siding with pakistan.” the world likes to smell a rich man’s fart and slaps a poor man for the same act”.
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this morning the mumbai ATS or anti terrorist squad confirmed the role of ABVP and hindu jagran manch in the malegaon blasts in maharashtra and modasa blasts in gujarat.i do not know who is misleading whom in this country.i was told by our media and press all along that it was ‘indian mujahideen’ all the way. indian mujahideen did it and all other blasts to disrupt trust among common muslims and hindus. now this new angle and twist to the tale ???so what happens to the muslim youths in jail in malegaon who faced beating and torture ?? and the credentials of narendra modi in modasa who is the cowboy sheriff of gujrat with his trigger happy POTA law ?? or is this just an election gimmick ?? i m as confused as any youth of this country . that is why ‘arushi case ‘ and ‘jamia encounter’ give me sleepless nights.i have no pro muslim or anti hindu bias nor am i a pseudo secularist.i love my country and its people unconditionally yet i cannot be a blind ‘pseudo patriot ‘.patriotism for me lies in my heart and soul and not in the ‘beards’ or ’tilak’ of men .
***
hemant i advise u to look at the world map in american school text books and also have a closer look at the status of kashmir in the map.in shanghai in a corporate office i saw the world geopilitical world map and noticed indian map in ‘yellow color’ and kashmir painted in white in favour of pakistan. i picked up a yellow sketch pen and painted kashmir yellow in front of the protesting chinese who were mostly friends.
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@ Tarique: Your earlier comment was not edited/deleted. It is here
I am also moving this comment to the other thread since it deals with the encounter itself.
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hemant , kashmir terrorists being labelled as ‘freedom fighters’ is in accordance with the UN resolutions where india is accussed of shying away from holding a ‘plebisite’ or a ‘referendum ‘ on kashmir.we all fully support india on this issue but ur american friends view it as ”right of self determination by kashmiris”
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i often tease my chinese fiends a lot on the hong kong issue. i ask them â€if hong kong is an integral part of china now why do u chinese require a passport and immigration stamp to go thereâ€.they tell me shyly †hk is ours but our government has provided it with special statusâ€
@ tarique: …in shanghai in a corporate office i saw the world geopilitical world map and noticed indian map in ‘yellow color’ and kashmir painted in white in favour of pakistan. i picked up a yellow sketch pen and painted kashmir yellow in front of the protesting chinese who were mostly friends.
That is great…Well done…Keep the flag flying.
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
Pl. comment on the appropriate, topic-related post(s).
Comment moved here.
@ Tarique: The two comments above were way off-topic.
There is an extensive collection of China-related articles on this blog (pl. use the categories drop-down menu to find the category “China-related” or please use the search box which usually works very well).
I hope you will avoid putting comments about other topics on this post. It is difficult to keep moving them on other threads.
Separately, I would welcome your views on this post – not here but through the comments thread on that post.
Thanks.
shantanu , i thank u very much for guiding me to ‘indian muslims blog’.it has the most brilliant commentary by the most broad minded muslims who i was always looking forward to meet in life. all my life i have been surrounded by ‘run of the mill’ stereotyped muslims from ghettos who never talk or think sense. shantanu i thank u again and consider u my friend , guide and philosopher from today on.it has also help clear some misunderstanding and misconceptions i had about u.i speak from my heart and never hide my feelings.i have a lot to learn yet in life from better read and well travelled people than me in this world.
@ Tarique: Thank you for the kind words. I am glad that I have managed to clear some misunderstanding and misconceptions from your mind.
But I cannot really be a guide or a philosopher (a friend, yes!)…I am nowehere near being there…We all have a lot to learn and we are all in this together…
Having said that, I will count on your support at the right moment..when I hope to have more time to devote to the betterment of our country and help improve the lives of our citizens.
Until then, we all should try and do what we can.
Jai Hind, Jai Bharat!
@tarique where did I praise US? All I said was US has been almost 100% successful in curbing the islamic terrorism since WTC happened.
They simply are scared of US and all they can do is something like protests in India against US!
Things have become even funnier – now the islami extremist sites are claiming that the US slowdown is because of US going against islam! I think that is the maximum they can go against US…
My point was – India has do decide whether it want to be ruthless on terrorism and protect people or wait and watch till either all the terrorists are ‘cured’ or join politics (like Yasim Malik and co in Kashmir!).
hemant , did the US REALLY FIGHT ISLAMIC TERRORISM ???how ??after WTC the CIA said that most hijackers came from kuwait and saudi arabia . yet these two countries were not even questioned about their links.they wanted to frame iraq in WTC , but saddam hussain had no history in islamic terror and was seen more like a communist leader by the world. they chose afghanistan , where homes of poor afghans were not even worth 200 dollars in the international market, dropped bombs in empty mountains and a few on poor tribals and showed the world they were fighting terror. then one fortnight later they decide that the ‘war on terror’ must be fought in iraq . 1000 soldiers are left to defend kabul and all army shifts to iraq.the rich monarchs of saudi and kuwait want the end of saddam hussain as his presence is a threat to their capitalist domination of the arab world. the iraq war was a costly affair and it the end we poor middle class people all over the world were made to pay for it when the price of crude oil jumped from 35 dollars a barrel in 2002 to 148 dollars per barrel in 2008. the only people who made money were republician part supporters and the arab monarchies , who laughed all the way to the bank. the middle class cheered shamelessly the so called ‘war on terror’ while their savings were slowly being wiped away by these arab ‘war profiteers’. this was actually the ‘behind the scenes’ in the terror war.
i find politicians in india very funny and hypocritical. when the BJP wants to assert aggressive hindutva for political gains most of their top firebrand leaders are there on the ‘attack’ on print media and tv . that is only when they have to go on the offensive. last two days , the BJP is in defensive mode and we that when their 2 muslim leaders shahnawaz hussain and mukhtar abbas naqvi trying hard to clarify that ‘terrorism and terrorist do not belong to any religion’.this is after pragya singh’s implication. now why does the BJP need muslim faces to clarify ‘terrorism’ ??we are all mature enough to know that ‘terrorism has no religion’.maybe BJP just learnt it now.i hope advaniji says it with pride ”terrorism has no religion”. we don’t want to hear it from mukhtar abbas naqvi or shahnawaz hussain.
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@tarique, rather than blaming BJP, you should really blame media!
It was media who used to gather people who said “terrorism has no religion” when muslims were being arrested by police with terror charges. While when hindus are arrested with similar charges, the media jumped up saying “Hindu terrorists behind blasts”. Now who is the real culprit here? Definitely media whose income sources are mostly ‘unknown’ like those of NHRC and other such so called NGOs!
Just as an example, TOI (yes the aptly called toilet paper of India) had a front page article with title “Hindu Organizations Behind Blasts”. Now if someone just scanned the page in hurry what will he deduce from this?
People would think…
1. So it was Hindu Terrorists all along who are behind (all) the recent blasts!!!
2. So there are lots of Hindu organizations (‘s’ here) who are behind all the wrong things
and what not!
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Just to add – Congress too have put forward their pawn: Mr Rashid Alvi to sail them through this great opportunity.
And that guy has already started showing his great congress knowledge: 2 days back on “News 24″ channel he said “Veer Sawarkar had apologized to British Gov for his ‘bad’ behavior and got himself acquittedâ€. He also claimed he has proof about it…
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if anyone thinks congress is for muslim benifits and BJP for hindu benifits in this country ,then start thinking again.these political parties will turn all of us into ‘voodoo dolls’ to pierce through our MOTHERLAND. JAIHIND. JAI BHARATMATA. VANDE MATARAM.
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TERRORISM HAS NO RELIGION…….yes this a a truth . if we are even a bit educated and well read than there is truth in these lines. we don’t need media preaching , congress or BJP, clarifications of ‘dharm’ and ‘adharm’
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i m neither a BJP supporter nor a congress supporter. i do not hold any religion behind any blasts. individial people do thongs on individual choices.i m not blind to media and politicians games. hemant, if u have been regularly following my comments u will notice i neither support hindu fundamentalism nor muslim fundamentalism. this country has gone to the dogs, we common muslims and common hindus just are ‘dog buiscuits’. ‘arushi’ jamia encounter’ ‘pragya singh’ all psychological mind games on us common indians being played out shamelessly.that is the point all my blogs always keep suggesting.’ hindu terrorist ‘ ‘muslim terrorist’ ’sikh terrorist’, hemant, now u know how much it hurts all of us peace loving people at the core of our hearts when the tag of terrorism sticks to our faith.the fact is that every community is a victim , the tragedy is that each different community in india think that they are the biggest victims.hemant , every common indian is suffering irrespective of caste and religion.only thing is that we have become blind to others pain .
hemant , i often see a lot of hindu youths here who use strong language against NGO’s and NHRC . A LOT OF HINDUS TRY TO PAINT THEM AS ANTI NATIONALS AND ANTI HINDUS . this is a completely wrong attitude and it shows lack of self confidence . let me give u a positive example of a NHRC activist in pakistan named ansar burney. he is respected worldwide for his work as a human rights lawyer who got more than 7 lakhs prisoners freed from false charges irrespective of caste , creed and religion. he bravely took up cases of several indian nationals arrested and jailed in pakistani jails on charges of terrorist attacks and bomb blasts. kashmir singh facing a death trial on a bomb blast for 35 long years and sarabjit singh on similiar charges for 18 long years.ansar burney has had to face several threats to his life and that of his family from muslim fundamentalist groups . ‘fatwas’ from radical mosques have been issued in his name and against his family. yet he keeps bravely defending sarabjit and kashmir singh against all odds stacked against him.ansar burney believes in human justice, which is his true religion for him.so before u critics point a finger again , think of ansar burney who has risked his life in pakistan for human justice.
a very happy deepavali to shantanu ,mahesh patil , vck , hemant , tarun garg , sanjeev sabhlok ,geeta athreya and all other regular contributors to this blog.
@Tarique:
“yet during that same period 300 planeloads of rich arabs and members of the bin laden family were flown out of america to safety. now hemant what will u call this”
I would like to see the evidence for this claim ….. can you please provide it?
This is similar to the claims of many muslims worldwide that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated by Israel or by the CIA to ensure that the US crushes the muslim world.
It would be nice to get proof of your statements.
BTW, Tarique, I agree with you on the NHRC …. I think it is a disgrace the way “hindutva” parties attack that non-biased organisation and defender of individual liberty and freedom.
patriot , the planeload transfer of rich arabs and members of the bin laden family to safety is available in michael moore’s documentary . the bush administeration or the republican party has still not replied or denied the allegations till today.there are a few more sources on this which i will let u know in a day or two other than ‘farhein it 9/11 ‘.
patriot , meanwhile i advise u to read colin powel’s complaints against the bush administeration on promoting islamic terrorism in afghanistan, iraq and even kashmir .i m wondering why these things never get highlihted in our media . he has filed a complaint in the UN SECURITY COUNCIL .
GO TO GOOGLE AND TYPE ‘WHO IS BEHIND TERROR NETWORK IN NORTHERN IRAQ , BAGHDAD AND WASHINGTON ‘ WRITTEN BY MICHEL CHOSSUDOVSKY WHICH HIGHLIGHTS THE ACCUSATIONS MADE BY COLIN POWELL IN THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL.
sorry it is a reply to colin powell’s accusations by michel chossudovsky.
i admit a mistake here in reading the report. i got it wrong in colin powell’s accussation. sorry again to all.a correction ‘ this is a report by michel chossudovsky replying to the accussations’.
MICHAELMOORE.COM PROVIDES SOME DETAILS OF THE ARABS AND BIN LADENS TRANSFER TO SAFETY.
Dear Shantanu,
Now we are getting closer to the truth. May be you will be surprised that in your blog , which you have kept going you are unable to ascertain it, forgive me for my audacity!
Today we are discussing terrorism in a new way.
It is that “TERRORISM HAS NO RELIGION”. What a magnificent truth. That is what I meant that we are getting closer to the truth.
If we continue to blog on these lines one will understand that there is “NO RELIGION” in this cosmos and we have always followed a “WAY OF LIFE” and nothing else.
The Cosmos or the Brahman or Allah or God, call it what you want, has “NO RELIGION”. One cannot it make it so narrow and myopic in thinking.
A group has come together at some time or the other and has made a way of life possible and when it appealed to the majority they have followed it.
Only when it became profitable did we conclude a “GOD” , a place of “WORSHIP” for him and a group of persons to serve him.
Jesus drove away the money lenders from the temples and he paid a heavy price for it. The Brahmins who sold out to the dominating castes over the years for their survival are despised today. The misled warriors who have been dominated by the thoughts of a better life in the nether world are contibuting for the hatred of their way of life. The group which needs more and more people to keep their priests in luxury and their king in place is fomenting trouble evrywhere.
That is the ETERNAL TRUTH. We are all one and there is no RELIGION only Greed and on the other hand it is sheer HUMANITY, a TOTAL WAY OF LIFE!
Congartualtions Shantanu!!
May be premature but we are on the groove and the train only needs to pick up speed.
Reagards,
vck
Tarique,
For someone who is so well-read, I see that you have chosen to ignore the facts presented on “Faith Freedom International”:
http://www.FaithFreedom.org
I wonder why? Does the truth make you feel uncomfortable?
vck , in the end we are all coming together under one roof and shantanu provided us the platform for it .
rishi khujur , i think we should avoid any discussion on deep religious teachings on any religion and talk about it only when we r religous scholars . otherwise we will all end up as karunanidhi , who despite not having a scholarship in hindu religions , often ends up mocking at hindu god and their history . if u believe in ali sina on islam and muhammed then u must also read george bernard shaw’s views on islam and prophet mohammed . if u believe in ali sina then i can tommorrow stand up and say that everything written by dr. babasaheb ambedkar in ‘riddles of hinduism’ is correct and true . despite many authors who tried to show hinduism and islam in poor light , both religions have survived and continue to grow in popularity . only these fictitious authors vanish in thin air . this will continue to happen as opinions of ali sina , karunanidhi , dr ambedkar , or salman rushdie don’t count much to the followers of the religion .
i m not a religious scholar , and always avoid a discussion on religious verses and holy scripture on any religion . i think all of us must follow these rules before trying to judge a holy book or its prophets or leading figures.
Tarique,
You wrote: “I think we should avoid discussions on religious teachings and talk about it only when we are religious scholars”.
Ahem.. Ahem… By extending your logic, then one shouldn’t comment on history if one is not a historian? Or one shouldn’t comment on society if one is not a sociologist?
It sure hasn’t stopped you from waxing eloquent and expounding copiously on history and societal mores, has it?
Talk about trying to shut people up using illogical arguments and arbitrary rules that are only applied to Kafirs when there’s no defense left of Islam.
Listen up. Everyone has the right to critically examine any belief system (or) cult (or) in this case, an “Arab Imperialistic Totalitarian Political Ideology†that masquerades as a religion.
If you have no reply to Ali Sina’s expose’ on Muhammad, Quran and Islam, then admit it. Don’t try to link Islam with any other religion to whitewash it.
In case you are in denial, I am devastated to let you know that the Qur’an and its Prophet (PBUH) have commanded their followers to wipe out EVERY SINGLE non-Islamic religion (and that includes Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and even Atheism) by killing or converting the latter’s adherents to Islam relentlessly – until the whole world submits to Islam.
In fact, I don’t want you to believe me at all. But I do request you to patiently read the writings of several Arab, Pakistani, Iranian and Bangladeshi free-thinkers who have exposed the Islam as a “Arab Imperialistic Totalitarian Political Ideology†that masquerades as a religion.
1) I especially recommend Dr. Ali Sina’s articles at: http://www.FaithFreedom.org/testimonials.htm
2) And the writings of the late Anwar Shaikh, M.A.Khan, Abul Kasem, Ayesha Ahmed, Mumin Salih and other brave souls at:
http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/index.html
3) If you like buying a book instead of reading articles, I would request you to google up this Pakistani author’s name: “ibn warraqâ€
unlike faith-freedom .org or any other site i don’t want to highlight any comments made by any author about any religion about any holy figure as it hurts the feelings of the followers of that particular faith . rishi khujur , there are terrorists and suicide bombings in all major religions of the world today . even dalai lama is seen as a dangerous terrorist who is indoctrinating the buddhist minds against china by the chinese authorities .
Tarique, Rishi: For a deeper discussion about Islam, Hindutva etc, please post comments on this post:
Join the discussion on Islam, Hindutva, Dr Zakir Naik, Godhra
Dear Shantanu,
I totally agree with your suggestion. But please bear with me, just this once.
I have been a long-time reader of your blog and appreciate your viewpoints as well as those of other readers. I have refrained from commenting needlessly as I enjoy discussions that represent different viewpoints, that are honest and objective.
But of late, I just can’t stand the reeking hypocrisy of an unabashed Islamic apologist (Tarique) who tries to pass for a “secular†person .
It is interesting to note that Tarique is a self-proclaimed “rational” person. Of course, he is quite scathing with his pompous verdicts on various non-related topics on this blog, where he blames the Hindu concept of Varna for India’s ills, mocks the admirable Hindu reverence for Nature (on Nagapanchami) and criticizes you for exposing the nefarious agenda of Mughalistan – the creation of an Islamic homeland in India.
Yet true to the Islamic penchant for entitlement and self-righteousness, he maintains that Quranic Hate Speech must not be questioned, as it offends the feelings of you-know-who.
Since I do not want to be turned into a silent Dhimmi, please let me ask Tarique one last set of questions.
1) In the Qur’an, just replace the word “Non-Muslim†with the opposite word “Muslim†…. and lo, presto ! What do you see? Hate Speech?
If Tarique doesn’t get the idea, he should see this first page:
http://www.TheReligionOfPeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm
2) Is the Qur’an Hate Propaganda?
You take a look at this second (different) page and tell me, ok?:
http://www.TheReligionOfPeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm
Dear Shantanu,
Since Tarique brought up H.H. The Dalai Lama and terrorism by all the major religions of the world, please let me disprove this nonsense at the very outset with facts and data.
Tarique writes: “Even Dalai Lama is seen as a dangerous terrorist.. blah blah blahâ€
So Tarique wants us to believe that the Dalai Lama is the same as your friendly neighborhood Jihadi, eh?
Do you remember the last time when the Dalai Lama’s Buddhist monks waged war in 100 countries around the world to kill or convert all non-Buddhists to Buddhism?
Tarique, I hope you do have facts on your side, not just emotions, denial and an apologist’s ludicrous defense of Islam.
For your satisfaction, I won’t dwell in the distant past or revisit the historic details of the 1400 bloody years (and ongoing) of Jihad waged by “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialism†(Islam) explicitly to spread the influence of the Qur’an worldwide, not just in the Indian subcontinent.
I am [temporarily] willing to forget that over the last 1400 years, 270 Million Kafirs have been killed (in the biggest, relentless holocaust known to humanity) as a result of the political doctrine of “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialismâ€.
I am willing to [temporarily] forget that … Out of this death toll of 270 Million Kafirs, there were 80 Million Hindus massacred, 60 Million Christians murdered, 10 Million Buddhists killed and 120 Million Africans slain by the blessed hands of “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialism†for resisting religious conversions and religious slavery.
I will even forget the most spectacular Jihadi massacre of this century – in which 3000 civilians were massacred on September 11, 2001. I am willing to foolishly ignore even this 9-11 massacre for the sake of peace and I admit I am willing to bury my ostrich-like head in the sand, when faced with the clear and present danger of Islam to the world.
Let’s pretend to start our history from the very next day – September 12, 2001.
But just in the last seven years (from September 12, 2001 to September 12, 2008) , “something†has inspired not just a few attacks in a few countries… but that “something†has inspired over 12,000 separate Jihadi attacks in over 100 countries.
Could that “something†be the aforementioned verses of hate? You think about it and tell me.
All these various Jihadis attacks (12,124 attacks and counting) have led to hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocent civilians across every single continent. If you need the details of every single one of these attacks from 2001 through 2007, all the details have been neatly archived in this website below (scroll to the very bottom for the Annual Archives)
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
For example: During just last month (September 2008) – which was the “Holy†Islamic month of Ramadan, “something†inspired 216 Jihad attacks in 19 Countries against civilians of 5 Religions, leaving 922 Dead Bodies and 1836 Critically Injured.
During the previous month (August 2008), “something†inspired 205 Jihad attacks in 21 Countries against civilians of 5 Religions, leaving 1102 Dead Bodies and 1811 Critically Injured.
Could that “something†be the aforementioned verses of hate? Once again, my friend, you think about it and tell me.
@ Tarique:
Michael Moore’s “documentary” 9/11 Fahrenheit was propaganda for the democratic party. Just as the US govt did not need to answer Oliver Stone’s accusations in JFK, so did it not need to answer Moore. Anyone can make unfounded accusations – the issue is where is the evidence. What evidence does Moore provide?
And, provide the links for the other sources that you are quoting.
rishi khajur , in ur data and efforts to paint islam in a bad light u forget to mention the number of muslim victims in these attacks . more muslims have lost their lives in the so called ‘islamic terrorist ‘ attacks than non muslims . i hope u will be able to provide me the exact data on that too . the point here is that if ‘islamic terrorists are killing more of their own , how can u say that only non muslims are suffering . the muslims are suffering too physically and emotionally .do dead bodies of innocent muslims killed in the so called ‘islamist attacks ‘ hardly matter to u ??1102 dead bodies and 1811 critically injured u cited. more many numbers than that died in iraq and pakistan and all were muslims . it shows that terrorist violence anywhere in the world is a fight for political space rather than for the promotion of any religion .u fail to cite the LTTE suicide attacks which has crossed 300 and claimed more than 80000 lives . the LTTE now has access to aerial bombing facilities . but nobody is protesting . why ??because 9/11, america was the victim . a rich man was attacked and he yelled ”islamic terror” in pain . that same rich man till the other day was enjoying watching a ‘cockfight’ in kashmir and russian borders where muslim rebels were involved .take it from me , if tommorrow by any chance a hindu outfit attacks america , then the whole world will try to show that they too are victims of hindu terror even if they don’t exist . u cite the massacre of 80 million hindus to spread islam , can u provide the details or historical proofs of those killings ??and why do u fail to provide details of terrorist groups in other religions and faiths . the wars waged by romans , greeks ,franks , byzantines , sasanids and mongolians . hindus in india cry about mongol invsions but the fact is that the single biggest victims of mongol invasions were muslims in iraq .there are a large number of muslim and christian nations in this world . muslims are around 57 and christians many more than that . hindu nations are few . if there were say 60 hindu majority nations in this world , then the level of violence among hindu would have been as high . besides india is blessed with large tracts of fertile lands which subsidises the level of violence to a great extent . a majority of muslim nations remain barren deserts , hilly mountains or dense forests of africa . the coastal muslim nations have always co existed in peace with their neighbours . indonesia , malaysia , brunei , maldives , who are geographically blessed have no problems with their neighbours . indonesia has 300 million muslims , the largest in the world . yet nobody has accused it of promoting terrorism . rishi kahajur , i advise u to look at the geopolitical situations of a nation .the two world wars cost many millions of lives and it was not started by muslims . vietnam was buddhist and yet 1.2 million lost their lives in the american occupation .more than the terrorist numbers u cited lost their lives in nepal which again is not a muslim problem .british born irish youths bombed london city for 35 long years on a daily basis . sri lanka faces a daily dose of terrorism for 42 long years non stop .laos and cambodia are the most heavily landmined nations of the world. like all these nations even muslim nations have political , social and problems of bad geography. but today it is fashionable to bring out muslim terrorist data just because 9/11 happened and americans acknowledged it . the iraq violence is widely highlighted but terrorist attacks in sri lanka , attacks by basque fatherland in france and spain , maoist in nepal ,and other east european terror groups are widely ignored because their actions causes no harm to america and western europe .
rishi khajur , what wrong did i say about the caste system in hinduism . i have seen it happen with my own eyes . r u denying the fact that the caste system was not responsible for socially deprived classes to look towards other faiths ??christians , muslims , buddhists in india were hindus before before they revolted against the caste system which humilated them .is that incorrect ??i did not mock at nag panchami but at a fact i learnt from a ‘science ‘ based programme .and ‘mughalistan ‘ was opposed by me on grounds that the argument presented in it were misguiding . the problem in a small place like pak occupied kashmir is that punjabi muslims and kashmiri muslims don’t see eye to eye . even if u follow the same religion , regionalism comes first and naturally to people . in dubai a kerala muslim is more friendly with a kerala hindu , than with a pakistani muslim . a bengali muslim likes a bengali hindu more than a bihari muslim .
islam and prophet mohammed have more eminent admirers in the world than critics .michael . h . hart in his book ‘100 most influential people ‘ has ranked prophet mohammed 1st on the list . george bernard shaw has been one of the greatest admirers of islam .napolean bonaparte admired islam. these people are highly regarded personalities and their views count in every society .the word ‘kafir ‘ in islam means ‘enemy of god and humanity ‘.it does not mean hindus or non muslims .but muslim societies over the years when they faced hostilities with other religions or disputes , used ‘kafir’ to describe the enemy, which was totally wrong . it was more of a political term used by ‘muslims ‘ mostly during defeat. a lot of controversial muslim practices , which are not sanctioned by quran or islam , are practiced more out of greed , lust for power, and for the sake of domination .power hungry greedy muslims here are more to blame who twist many islamic verses and meanings , to justify their wrongdoings . rishi khajur , cites attacks by muslims on 100 nations , yet he fails to notice a strong presence of muslims in more than 100 nations.he points out only issues where he does not agree with me on hinduism but fails to acknowledge the good points i made all the time on indian and hindu culture . in the ‘taj mahal ‘ blog i devoted writings on the good side of hinduism and the real threat ‘hinduism ‘ faces in the long run . i m not a muslim apologist as u think , i only make an effort to make hate filled ‘heads’ more lighter by seeing things through geoplitical and socio economic reasonings. i sincerely apologise to anyone who i may have unintentionally hurt , and if u mind my comments offending i may stop contributing to this blog . i m a very proud indian .i m not a historian or a socialogist , most of my contributions come from newspapers and magazine articles .i may be wrong in many places , but it is only a side of my argument .
Tarique, Rishi: Can I please once again request both of you (and others who may wish to join this discussion about Islam, Hindutva etc.) to pleasee post comments on this post:
Join the discussion on Islam, Hindutva, Dr Zakir Naik, Godhra
Thank you.
Dear Sir,
What a mockery our politicians have made of our lives. They enjoy the benefits and we are the people who are endlessly arguing about everything.
It is the leadership all over the world that is causing this problem.
The leaders have no interest in the development of the nation as if the nation becomes more developed the individuals will understand what th politicians are standing for and standup to it.
If we have the totality concept one will understand that this Jamia controversy has come up, not because the Amar Singhs are well wishers of the persons killed in the encounter, it is only to keep in the limelight and the media laps it up as they smell blood!
You will be wondering what blood; the blood of the people who will do something worse being provoked by this action which the media tries to highlight.
The media has made the Jamia affair a Hindu –
Muslim divide rather than a criminal –
police action.
Please understand that I am not alluding that the persons killed were terrorists or otherwise nor am I stating that the police were wrong or right.
The whole track has changed, as, now because of the political impotents throwing their weight behind it has been adduced a communal color rather than an investigation of a wrong act of the police or a right act.
Let us remain vigilant and get to the truth of the matter before we keep dividing and dividing like a cell and end up with being nothing and let the glory be cornered by vicious individuals.
Regards,
vck
vck , very well said .the truth, the whole truth , and nothing but the truth matters . the guilty must be punished no matter what religion he follows .
but will our greedy politicians let the whole truth come out in the open . as they say in the underworld ”GANDA HAI MAGAR DHANDHA HAI ”. it means ‘its very mean and cruel, but thats only business’
Dear Tarique,
Is it the underworld you are talking about? It sounds to be a familiar streak of the politicians of the Bihar and UP type!
You had asked me earlier something about Bush and Clinton and their visits to India.
Let me brief you of my understanding of it.
If you recall before the advent of some of the big names of fashion and beauty in all fields, Indians won the Miss. World and the Miss Universe and other Misses; It is typical of the pussilanimity of the Indians that we lapped it all up as if Indian beauties were recogonised!
Please, please I am not denying that the winners were not what they are worth, but I am finding an inner meaning to the whole thing. Please accept that I may be biased and you can take my thoughts with any amount of salt that you want!
To aggresively sell the regulatory measures and the economic business of the US the two presidents came over to India. One must understand that the US does not send its Secretary of state and its President if there is no underlying agenda for the visits.
It is not out of friendliness that they came, it is to market the economics and the political policies of the US that these two presidents came.
If you look at Bush, he came to strengthen the hands of the evangelists who were gaining streength because of the powers that be of India.
If you recall there was a study by a Gita who defined that the world of the future will be the BRIC nations. Namely Brazil, Russia, India, and China.
Imagine the position of the US if India and Russia get together . One has the power of past research and the other has the largest pool of scientific and engineering students coming out of their institutes like the IIT’s IIM’ and other world recogonised institutions.
Just imagine if the two got together with their research on scientific developments which can shake the world. Consider also the position if the all the countries came together. More than half the population of the world will be together and if they pool their resources unimaginable consequences will arise for the western world.
The threat of our borders on the west, north, north east has been kept alive by the US to keep India under leash; Only during the time of Indira that we came out with our relationship with the erstwhile USSR , beyond that we had no strict foreign policy of our own.
Tarique, it is very complicated, but the brief sketch I have given you can be made more rotund and robust as we take it forward thru our discussions.
It is only after the visit of the two presidents that we fully succumbed to the hogwash of the theory that all is the best that is available is in the thralldom of western education and that the East has developed nothing over the years is all Hogwash.
Even as of today if you look at the scenario you notice one thing; the Western powers are scrambling to put together a policy to extend more controls over their financial institutions which we have always relied on.
If you look at all the postions taken by the thoughts of the supposed to be senior thinkers of the western world, who are called “Consultants” and Advisors, and “Raters” we notice that they are still behaving as if thier poolicies are still valid and we are the fools to still not take them seriously.
I would like you to go back to the scene when Tata Tea took over Tetly of Britain and the whole of that Consultants, Raters, and Advisors, said that Tata Group will collapse and made a lot of noise. Today Tata Tea is if I am not wrong the Second Largest Tea Marketer and breathing down the neck of one of the icons of the western world HLL.
If you look at the fight between Nirma and HLL you will understand what I am trying to convey.
To conclude this part of my analysis, the visits were only to contain India on the first take and the other to strengthen evangilism.
The fianl take, you may take this or leave it! as a political leader why was Shri. Modi not given a visa.
Read between the lines and you will get the finer picture.
Regards,
vck
vck , i totally agree with each and every point u made . our new generation is so overawaed by america and western europe , but the fact is that we got no concrete benifits from them . on the other hand USSR helped us build the layout for ONGC , our space based programmes , technology in defense aviation and many more useful things . what did we get from america post liberalisation. coco cola , pepsi , mcdonalds , kentucky fried chicken and vck can point out many more . the difference is for all to see .and not to forget the stiff opposition west europe put up to prevent the takeover by mittal of arcelor , on grounds that he was an indian.the arcelor bid was insulting indian pride as everyday they kept hiking the price but still failed to stop lakshmi mittal .
today i can feel the importance of our great leaders like pandit nehru and indira gandhi , when i see todays leaders from both BJP and congress willing to sell the nations interest to fill the coffers of american capitalism. capitalism is not bad , but american type cowboy capitalism surely is .
uncle sam is lecturing our todays politicians ”SELL UR MOTHERLAND TO BUY OUR DOMINO’S PIZZA AND GET A 500 ML COKE PET BOTTLE FOR FREE ”
Tarique wrote about “the peaceful spread of islam in india by sufi saints and peers like khwaja chisti or nizamuddin auliya”.
Nice try. Please reconsider your blatant Islamist propaganda about Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti (Ajmer) and Sheikh Nizamuddin Auliya (Dargah Hazrat Nizamuddin, Delhi)who had nothing but contempt for India’s Vedic traditions and our Hindu way of life.
By venerating him, we are spitting on ourselves.
Excerpt:
Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti of Ajmer had accompanied the army of Shihabuddin Ghori and finally settled down at Ajmer in the year 1233 A.D.
If the narrative of the preachings and acts of Khawaja Moinuddin Chishti of Ajmer is taken as indication of his religious philosophy and deeds, he emerges as a sufi master who nursed a deep hatred against the infidel Hindus and showed utter contempt for their religious beliefs. As elaborated by S.S.A. Rizvi in ‘A History of Sufism in India, Vol. 1 (Munshiram Manoharlal, 1978, p. 117), there is a reference in Jawahar-i-Faridi to the fact that when Moinuddin Chishti reached near the Annasagar Lake at Ajmer, where a number of holy shrines of Hindus are located, he killed a cow and cooked a beef kebab at the sacred place surrounded by temples.
It is further claimed in Jawahar-i-Faridi that the Khawaja had dried the 2 holy lakes of Annasagar and Pansela by the magical heat of Islamic spiritual power. He is even said to have made the idol of the Hindu temple recite the Kalma. The Khwaja had a burning desire to destroy the rule of the Rajput king, Prithviraj Chauhan, so much so that he ascribed the victory of Muhammad Ghori entirely to his spiritual prowess and declared that “We have seized Pithaura alive and handed him over to the army of Islam”. [Souce: Siyar’l Auliya, cited by Rizvi on page 116 of ‘A History of Sufism in India’].
Sheikh Nizamuddin Auliya of Dargah Hazrat Nizamuddin came to Delhi in the year 1335 accompanying a contingent of the Muslim invaders.
….
In the above mentioned treatise on Sufi philosphy, Fuwaid al-Fuad, a very interesting instance of enslaving the kaffir Hindus for monetary gain has been cited which shows that how another Sufi, Shayakh Ali Sijzi, provided financial assistance to one of his dervishes to participate in the lucrative slave trade. He had advised the dervish that he should take “these slaves to Ghazni, where the potential for profit is still greater”.
It was confirmed by Nizamuddin Auliya that “the Dervish obeyed”. Obviously therefore, neither ethics and nor justice to all, including the infidels, were not the strong points of Sufi saints.
The entire article below should be of interest to you.
Dear Tarique
If you study the history of the world, no single “thought process” has claimed more lives and caused more conflicts than the the thought process arising out of belief in the “Koran as the word of God”.
I do agree with you though, that inspite of the Koran, there have been Muslims in every generation who had and still continue to value humanism, over the message of Islam. Fundamentally, Islam, as pointed out by G B Shaw is a very unifying system… and thats the part he appreciates.
But the unification Islam creates, is at the cost of the rest of humanity….and when Islam runs out of non-Muslim enemies, it starts looking inwards to persecute the “less Koranic” within its lot. That, if I may suggest, is very evident in the history of the Middle East.
I find it funny that you are so acerbic is the criticism of Bush and his doctrine. Actually, Bush’s logic of “you are either with us or you are with the enemy”, again, is copy-book of what Mohammed the Prophet himself practiced.
Irony, the chickens have come home to roost.
“I find it funny that you are so acerbic is the criticism of Bush and his doctrine. Actually, Bush’s logic of “you are either with us or you are with the enemyâ€, again, is copy-book of what Mohammed the Prophet himself practiced.”
Yes, perfect. I always thought so ….. that Bush is borrowing Mohammed’s art of war and theology to wage war on his followers. There was some poetic justice in that.
BTW, to all the US-bashers – let us learn something from the US and its politics.
One, if you attack the US, then all the politicians unite against the external enemy, no matter their ideological differences.(Can we even hope of this in India?)
Two, if you attack the US, RETALIATION is as SURE and CERTAIN as the sun will rise in the east. Moreover, their whole philosophy is “you attack one portion of America, one institution, one person and we will ANNIHILATE you, your nation, your people”.
Japan found this out in WWII, as did the Taliban in 2001.
Do you think we can even get close to the US?
After the attack on our Parliament, I was in complete support of all-out war against Pakistan – the so-called “strong” BJP mobilised over 1m soldiers and then only ended up spending the money, with no result. That was our trigger – we should have wiped Pakistan clean at that point in time, irrespective of our losses.
Carry on bashing the US. After all, we do not have the balls to emulate them.
rishi khajur i m neither a believer in the dargah culture of khwaja mohinuddin chisti or nizamuddin auliya , but a fact i gathered in my lifetime is that , these two saints or peers have more devout hindu followers than muslims . i have never been to their shrines nor do i intend to . but i know a lot of hindus who devoutedly visit these shrines as a holy place . now if these people destroyed hindu religion , why is that those who r still following hinduism are crowding their shrines ??a lot of hindus or a majority of them follow saibaba of shirdi , who was also a muslim . maybe rishi khajur should dig deep in history to find out the ulterior motives of saibaba too. maybe he was a mughalistan agent of that time .who knows ?? suddenly people who do not know the exact birthplace of their great grandfather are writing indian history .
ketaki, the point of discussion here was ‘does the true teachings of islam have a place for non muslims ‘ . we were not discussing the politics of muslim rulers over the years .despite the many flaws over the years , i do not agree with u that the ‘thought process ‘ in islam caused the maximum conflicts and bloodshed in history . i feel u r skipping a lot of bloody war and events relating to other faiths and religions . i advise u to read world history again and do the body count all over again . u mention killing by muslims of the ‘less koranic lot ‘ after they run out of non muslims.u must understand human killings are not encouraged in the teachings of any single religion of this world , including islam . those who attacks and kill other faiths ,one day start killing their own .but all this is one of the dynamics of human survival for domination , right from the days human began to exist . ur reading of history fails to notice that all these things happened even before islam was born .the huns , the mongols ,the franks ,the byzantines , and many other barbarian warriors who invaded the world and killed millions , when islam did not even exist .i forgot to mention the roman empire and its worldwide killings . they enslaved their own subjects and even killed own people for domination.remember jesus christ .changhez khan and halaku khan were buddhists , yet their invasions from china to eastern europe cost lost of human lives in millions in the age when there were no guns and bullets .adolf hitler was not a muslim when he ordered the 6 million jew killings . vietnam was buddhist when the americans occupied it and killed 1.2 million there .laos and cambodia are buddhists , yet there people are killing their own people .the two world wars which cost more than 30 million human lives was fought among the rich nations of western europe for greed and power . did these wars not cost the lives of their own people ?? the internet is a tool for information technology and human development , yet it can be manipulated to spread pornography and misinformation and other evils . same things happened to various religions at various stages before they settled down in peace . islam , being the youngest major religion of this world is also going through a process of confrontation and a confusion between ‘spiritualism ‘ and ‘political ideology ‘.like all major religions before it i m sure and optimistic it will emerge and embrace all its older brothers . ketaki , in the end let us trust the judgement of the almighty and say ‘all for the best’.
human killing another human has nothing to do with any religion or faith . domination , power , greed ,lust , hunger ,lack of faith , injustice , etc . are the real reasons that promote human killing another human . religion , ideology , etc . are just used as an excuse to justify the evil deeds and to hide the guilt .
Dear Tarique
If you cared to read my comment, you would have noticed that I didnt point out the magnitude of conflicts( the numbers you gave through world wars, etc).
Believe me, if followers of Koran were as technologically capable, as the West got during the industrial revolution and the next century’s world wars, the death tolls would have been much higher.
Thankfully, the Mohammeds, the Umers, the Usamas throughout the ages didnt have nukes in their hands and never went through the industrial revolution before anybody else did.
I like the way you try to obfuscate facts using a barrage of cacophony. Anyway, one should thank the Buddhist Hulagu Khan for slowing down the Islamic Caliphate’s war juggernaut for a few decades. Your Hindu forefathers (who eventually were forced into Islam anyway.. later), could stay Hindu for a few more generations, thanks to Hulagu.
Also, most Hindus in India (thanks to the pseudo-secular education system), NEVER KNOW THE REAL HATE PROPOUNDED BY SUFI ISLAM. If the actual reality of the Chistis, Aulias and the Hamadanis are brought out in public, the gullible, ever-syncretic Hindu will know the reality real soon.
And that will happen, eventually.
ketaki , what stops the indonesians ,the largest populated muslim nation from spreading hate ? my hindu forefathers may have faced discrimination in the caste system. i can understand the bias of upper caste hindus on muslim rule and muslim saints and people . their distoted version of history helps them whitewash their evil caste system over the years , and they exist even today . even today , dalit women get paraded naked in indian villages by upper caste men . mass attacks on dalits take place even today . so the theory ‘blame it on the muslims ‘ by upper caste hindus, to hide their own misdeeds of self proclaimed ‘hindu supremacy ‘.they want to deny that the muslims , christians , buddhists , who revolted , were due to caste conflicts . a forced conversion theory is doing the rounds for years now ,just to take the focus and anger away from upper caste hindus . yet , in the end the truth will prevail in india , and people will segregate truth from propoganda .if muslims were the culprits , they will cease to exist on this great land , if upper caste hindus indulged in social extremism , then they will helplessly watch the rise of dalits to great heights .the upper caste hindu dillemma is understandable . they feel vulnerable in the political atmosphere today . the muslims have outnumbered them . the christians are on the verge of it . the buddhist strenght is rising from the ambedkar conversion .the dalits and other backward castes are asserting their presence with political groups of their own .the upper caste are feeling the insecurity around them coz of these developments ,so targetting the largest minority in india will give them their lost political space .
the problem here too is not religious . like over the centuries , mankind has always formed groups for survival instincts and political space for the sake of power .the hindu muslim divide helps a lot of upper caste brahmins to occupy high positions in power in india . the upper caste people exist in congress , BJP , COMMUNIST PARTIES, and the hindu muslim divide forms the core of their progress .
Dear Tarique,
One more ball in the basket. Today Obama has expressed his intentions with regard to Kashmir. Who the hell does he think he is?
Serves us right. Cringing, craving, licking the backsides; What will we not do to get a party ticket to the US embassy and be called a party animal.
What will we not sell for a few bottles of Blue label, some Beluga caviar and spread white thighs?
The dismembering of India has begun in real earnest and the true seculars are playing second fiddle and I am sure we will have a few like the Rajdeep’s, Barkha’s and others who will now play the drums and the trumpets.
The losers all of us.
We will also have the Vinayaks, the Teesta, the Kanungo’s and others bleating that it is a matter of human rights and the theory of the Indian nation can be made history!
May be we can start a fund for another Attenborough film “India” an elegy.
I now add Obama to Bush and Clinton.
If the US cannot fight terror without dismembering India then let them take a walk and let them not interfere next time as they did during the Kargill war and the Bangladesh war.
We will teach them how to get rid of Terrorist Pakistan. Not Pakistan!
Regards,
vck
@ tarique: Rishi has quoted from historical records and documents…It would be worth looking deeper…I am certain most Hindus are completely unaware of this side of the Khwaja (if true)…and that might explain why he has Hindu followers as well. Rishi does not mention Shirdi Saibaba…so that is different…
….and of course no one is saying that all Muslim saints and pirs were (are) anti-Hindus or anti-Bharat.
Also, some of what you haev written about the “caste system” is not quite correct…For one, the caste system in India has permeated into Islam and Christiantity as well (as you may well know).
Second, yes, there continues to be a fair amount of discrimination against Dalits in India but in certain states, you actually face reverse discrimination (i.e. you are hated if you are an upper caste) and there are also instance of violence against Dalits where the perpetrators are not “Brahmins” but other classes…Also upper caste is a very loose term, so one should be careful of labels…
The “caste conflict” theories come out of the Romila Thapar school of history and while attractive do not reflect the whole truth… Unfortunately this is the “history” that you and I have studied and grown up with.
Finally, I really doubt that there is any generic feeling of “upper class insecurity” in India today…Your point about upper castes feeling “insecure” because of the lost political space can also be made for the Muslims who comprised the ruling class before the British and to some extent even during British rule.
As for “upper caste brahmins” dominating high positions in power in India, you and I both know that the real “power” in India today is in the hands of politicians and possibly big business…How many Upper Caste Brahmin politicians and big businessmen/women can you name who are really influential?
Dear Mr.Trivedi,
What an article of misnormers. It is indeed difficult to understand the point you have tried to make in your article.The genuinity of the statements are full of myopia and lack of information.
The jamia nagar police station is not all muslim police station for the fact of the matter and secondly do we call the nfc police stn or all other police stations in majority dominated areas with no muslim police personels as all hindu ps’s.What are you trying to prove….? S
The Ramzan Quran incident is also potrayed in a communal light…come pujas and diwali the whole syatem is up for management of roads ,lightings, clearance of garbage … do we see the same for minority festive seasons…NO NOT AT ALL. Then why the the complaint if we have to manage our selves then leave us alone…
The batla house encounter has been doubted not by locals alone but by politicians and above all the learned intelligensia. Why is the police still on the look out for proof against the boys killed …. and remember the witchhunt for evidences after the encounter really raises doubt what proof did the trigger happy police have before they actually enacted the man-slaughter……….
Tarique wrote: “suddenly people who do not know the exact birthplace of their great grandfather are writing indian history.”
Tarique mian,
Sorry to note that you do not know about your great grandfather’s birthplace. Don’t depair, dear.
I hope this online book helps you find more about the fate of your great-grandmother too.
Muslim Slave System in Medieval India: http://voiceofdharma.org/books/mssmi/
Dear readers,
To know the bloody history of Islamic Jihad against all other Non-Muslim countries and civilizations, please visit:
http://www.HistoryOfJihad.com/sitemap.html
Scroll down on each page and read carefully.
This website is a treasure-trove/archive of facts, figures and pictures on the ongoing step-by-step Islamization of the world by genocide, rape and destruction.
It shows the future of the world staring at us in the face.
Tarique wrote: “the word ‘kafir ‘ in islam means ‘enemy of god and humanity’ “.
My take:
Keep up the good Islamist propaganda. Who knows? Your valiant efforts may be rewarded in ‘Jannat’ with some Hurs (heavenly prostitutes) and a few Gilmans (young pearl-like boys) thrown in for good measure.
For the rest of us, the word ‘kafir’ in Arabic means a non-believer of Allah i.e. the enemy of Allah and the Muslims.
rishi khajur , all ur efforts to paint islamic faith in a poor light will bear no fruit. all this has been tried before and it has failed to stop the rise of muslims and islam in the world . the history of ‘spread of islam ‘ and ‘muslim rulers’ u presented , has no reputed authors . it seems these articles are written by people who have an anti muslim mentality . rishi khajur , i advise u to go through all these similiar events in the book ‘the spread of islam in the world – a history of peaceful preachings ‘ written by professor lord kinross , who recieved knighthood from cambridge university for his research . most of the events u pointed out in those articles are represented by him in an unbiased manner . according to u the foundation of islam is rape , murder, loot , plunder , sex ,homosexuality ,etc etc. i m wondering how despite these flaws ,islam was able to grow and survive for 1400 years .anyway , i feel very happy that atleast u r reading islamic and muslim history ,even though it is the ‘one sided ‘ version of it . i can bring up a more vulgar version of hinduism quoting from hindu scriptures right up to the numerous marriages of hindu kings of latter years upto the evils of treatment of dalit women , to female infanticide , etc etc. but this would amount to hurting the feelings of 95 percent hindus who r great human beings . maybe according to u 100 percent muslims are evil creatures . the problem here is not hindu mentality.hindus are very great and nice people. only a section of right wing brahmins who hold a grouse against muslims , especially in maharashtra ,for failing to find a political space in the state’s electoral politics .the maharashtrian brahmins have themselves to blame . by their ultra conservative attitude and their ego problems over hindu religion ‘hegemony’ they have not only distanced themselves from muslims , but also from marathas ,OBC,dalits , and other groups in maharashtra .these self confessed intellectuals ,think their opinion matters to the whole of india .thankfully , they have very few takers for their version of world history even in their own state . i feel pity for them for starting to believe ‘in their own propoganda ‘.this small section of brahmins from maharashtra must take a clue from uttar pradesh brahmins , who r more practical in life . the uttar pradesh brahmin does not mind playing second fiddle to mayawati a dalit , mulayam a yadav ,salman khurshid a muslim ,rajnath singh a kurmi thakur ,or kalyan singh an OBC . the uttar pradesh brahmins have cleverly adjusted to the way the electoral wind is blowing and reaped rich dividends in the form of seats from all these groups . only 6 percent brahmins could wrest 60 out of the 80 seats they contested on a bahujan samaj party ticket . unlike the maharashtra brahmin whose indulgence in ultra casteim has left him confined to his own groups like shiv sena ,BJP,RSS,abhinav bharat ,VHP etc.left with very little political space because of their own faults , they vent out their anger on muslims through hate speeches and pamphlets and baseless propoganda .they cannot target any other group or they could get into deep trouble .the deshmukhs ,deshpandes, patils , bhujbals,pawars ,ranes , have all reaped the major benifits , leaving them frustrated .so the muslim is the only soft target they have .the uttar pradesh brahmin attacks muslims only when there is a BJP wave . otherwise he joins the chorus along with others on the virtues of secularism . rishi khajur , india is too diverse , so ur kind of history lessons will have a few takers in ur own community . enjoy ur muslim bashing with ur 5 percent kith and kins .
shantanu ,u said u wanted to change india . i think u need to change ur attitude first . india is perfect and does not need a change . only a few oversmart brahmins will have to change for the better .the rest of india is absolutely fine .
hmmm…
Looks like Tarique’s true colors are finally showing through….or is it just the effect of Koran over-ruling his humane intellect.
Tarique says, ” all this has been tried before and it has failed to stop the rise of Msulims and Islam in the world”.
Well Tarique.. here is news for you.
Never before has the world been so driven by knowledge, as it is now.
And knowledge is Islam’s Achilles heel.
So wait.
While Islam and its followers will shed blood of a few unbelievers, their defeat will lie in true “Gnana” and “Bhakti” and good Karma, that only Hindu Dharma can give inspire them to… again.
So Islam may grow a little by procreating like rats and spending billions of petro-dollar on conversion propaganda and bloody jihads, BUT, as Vivekananda said, its time is limited. Nothing so hateful and exclusivist can survive the vagaries of epochs.
Islam’s story will end this epoch.
Also, I fidnd it funny, when you train your guns on Shantanu by pointing to his so-called Brahmin roots (looks like Shatanu made a mistake by giving out his real name to a Koran thumper like you)
Again dude, just look into your own hearland. The heart of the Islamic world is a story of hate and gore. Everyday dozens of Shia’s lose their heads to Sunni believers. And vice-versa.
The Koran brought pain and suffering to India, as never seen in the history of South Asia before. India will do perfectly fine without it or its followers.
Peace
tarique have you taken your medications?
looks like advanced case of persecution complex. a visit to a psychiatrist will help.
good remedy – watch ndtv 24X7 or CNN – IBN
you will feel better with your friends in secularism.
if you hate this site and if you hate shantanus comments so much why come back again and gain and get hammered? give yourself a break will you?
yesteray i watched a wonderful movie called “Partition” starring Jimmy Mistry in which he is shown as sikh by religion and a war soldier in East India Company (British).
During the partition whatever massacre happens while migrating Jimmy even being an ex-soldier doesnt takes part in the massacre and instead helps a Muslim girl and later marries her. (Hindi version movie Gadar…sunny deol)
Tarique bhai there are no twilight zones jimmy mistrys or sunny deols on this blog to understand and practise secularism or even nationalism! , if liberal! hindus on this blog cant understand a liberal muslim like you just imagine how deep the divide is …
I support your efforts on this blog.. no matter how much anyone opposes do keep writing, its a uphill task.
जय हिंद! जय महाराषà¥à¤Ÿà¥à¤°!!
Mahesh dada:
Which part of Tarique Bhai was “liberal”?
ketaki, r ur comments on muslims liberal or truthful ??u r presenting a one sided picture of the muslim world . u r taking great pains to mix muslim conflict zones with islamic preachings . military conflict zones and spiritualism are two seperate entities .nobody embraces the faith of a brutal conqueror , no matter what the consequences .many british historians have presented tipu sultan as an enemy of brahmin hindus ,when tipu put up a strong fight against them. the policy was ‘divide and rule ‘.it is an open fact that the ‘hindu mahasabha ‘ was very close to the britishers .the hindu mahasabha mostly comprised of the intellectual brahmin class of maharashtra .the marathas despite fighting a pitched battled against muslim rulers , never indulged in hate propaganda against muslims . shivaji maharaj always seperated his mughal conflicts and common muslims as two seperate things . the brahmins love to mix things up and yet maharashtra has and will remain a common man’s state .the brahmin version of history and brahmin version of ‘SATYAMEVA JAYATE ‘ will find no takers even among common peace loving hindus . a few conflicts , a few riots ,a few ‘bomb blasts’ for political reasons will always take place in this vast nation of 1100 million people,yet the fact that the majority of indians ,hindus or muslims , want to live in complete harmony and peace can never be overlooked .let the small section of frustrated brahmins bark and howl , let the greedy muslim mullahs of uttar pradesh spread their hate divisive philosophy , yet a small gesture of love and respect from a common hindu or muslim everyday , will make these evil fundamentalist bite the dust . JAIHIND , JAIBHARATMATA ,VANDE MATARAM.SATYAMEVA JAYATE (ONLY THE TRUTHFUL VERSION ).
another case we are witnessing today is that of zakir naik , an example of religion and politics getting mixed up . zakir naik is a maharashtrian muslim preacher gaining in popularity everyday . though a large section of hindus and muslims do not agree with his philosophy, i feel he is making a great effort towards peace and harmony in this country . the problem is not zakir naik. the problem is muslim mullah politics of uttar pradesh who dominated things and affairs of muslims for years now . right from fatwas ,to vote banks , to politics everyone consulted these uttar pradesh mullahs . now a maharashtrian mullah is rising ,and the UP domain is threathened. so a fatwa on zakir naik .more regional politics than religion .let us come together and shun fundamentalists , both hindus and muslims ,let us embrace positivity in various religions.as mahesh patil said ‘the divide is very deep’.it is very true an i realise the danger signs in times to come . yet i believe as an optimist that the spirit of humanity in the indian nation will help us sail through in the most difficult of times .human history is full of wars and conflicts , yet ‘humanity’ prevailed and this world has survived till today .this human creed does not need sympathy ,only a bit of understanding with a smile on the face .
ketaki , reading history from internet sites is equivalent to watching pornographic sites on the internet .the best way to understand human history is to travel widely across the globe . unfortunately , this is not possible for everybody . yet , i must say that travelling made me realise that nobody was a bad person anywhere in the world and yet a lot of actions which hurt people were inspired by political compulsions , survival instincts and the greed for power and domination .
rishi khajur is making the same mistake in his history analysis as other historians have done over the years . linking turk mongol invasions with the islamic caliphate . they fail to notice that turk mongol invaders overran the entire arab empire during the ottoman rule .muslims invading muslims . but these things are overlooked by these ‘hate preaching historians ‘ . that is why i always found their accounts of history one sided with the sole intention to create hate .they simply overlook the muslim invasions on fellow muslim lands because it does not suit their propoganda material.
Dear Tarique:
You are right.
The biggest weakness of Hindus has been to treat Islam (as a belief system) with the same syncretic approach as Hindus look at their own Panths.
The problem with that is that its like treating a wolf like a sheep. So Hindus in the past would look at Islamic invasions and expansions (in the case of Marathas), as a political a territorial problem, rather than a ideological problem.
This is changing very fast.
Today, the average Hindu reads more and is more connected to the world. He sees, the bigger picture much better.
It is easy for Hindus and the entire humanity (including Muslims) to see that the Koran does have a violence inspiring effect on the human mindset. What is happening in Iraq, Sudan, Southern Phillipines, Western Thailand, Kashmir and all over the world, is now easily accessible and assimilated by humanity.
That knowledge is very essential to realize the true nature of how the message of Koran has destroyed civilizations and let humanity through so much peril. (and I include Muslims attacking fellow Muslims too in that)
Also
Tarique…
reading history on internet is only half the story. You really need to travel around the world with a open mind.
Hajj does not count as one though 🙂
ketaki, u r again making the mistake of reading only the anti muslim version of history and invasions. u fail to notice that in most muslim invasions they were allied with armies of other religions too. in india a great number of muslim invasions had hindu rajput warriors helping them out . the ottomons of turkey were helped by many christian armies when they conquered europe.the arabs were joined by the ‘seljuks’ ,when they had not even embraced islam. many hindu kingdoms in south east asia sided with muslim invaders .so it was not an all out muslim invasion to spread islam as it is being made out to be . that the success of the invaders may have helped in establishing a muslim based nation is true , but it also delivered the oppressed masses of that nation to overthrow the older rulers. ur history is one sided with the sole intention to defame the muslim world. half knowledge or half truth is worse than spreading illiteracy and u r doing just that . half truth leads to a ‘hate propoganda’.u say the average is well connected today and i agree. so he is not blind to the LTTE killings ,the maoist killings in nepal and india ,the naxal terrorism ,the various homegrown terrorism in america and the west involving the ‘white supremist’,the basque fatherland threathening spain and france both ,various leftist outfits of russia and eastern europe who r not all muslims .iraq , sudan , thailand s.phillipines , and kashmir is a fight for political space in a nation e.g. LTTE in sri lanka , maoists groups in nepal or ULFA in assam . do u know that hamas the palestinian group has christian fighters in its rank ??r u aware that hassan nasrullah of lebanon despite being a shia, has sunni , durazi ,christian and jews supporting hm in his fight against israel.the kashmir struggle is viewed by the UN as a regional struggle and not as a religious problem.iraq was baathist and followed communist laws and not shariah laws. saddam hussain always supported india on the kashmir issue at every world summit.in sudan ,the west is making attempts to carve out a seperate christian state on the lines of east timor in indonesia .remember all these struggles have less to do with religion and more with hegemony politics . the muslims do not possess advanced and sophisticated armies today to match the americans and the western influence in their affairs . when they try out various guerilla tactics , commonly used by many other faiths in various conflict zones , they are pointed out as acts of ‘brutal terror’.any act of terror and violence for destruction purpose is condemned in islam in the strongest terms . all acts of muslim extremism cannot be laid on the doors of islamic or koranic teachings. by linking terror to religion u r falling into the trap of these ‘merchants of death’ by glorifying their deeds and giving them an excuse to hide their guilt .ur reading of history fails to cover the massacre muslims faced at the hands of muslim invaders.it fails to cover the secular aspect of invasions where armies of many other faiths allied with the muslims.in south east asia muslims were supported by many hindu kingdoms to defeat their rivals. if u mix human politics with religion , u will end up creating more problems in this world .u say things are changing very fast in the hindu religion as historical awareness is growing . i guess u just bumped into this piece of history just today. it has been circulating for more than 200 years.all hindus do not have problems with muslims , only the maharashtrian brahmin class . i guess muslim invaders may have committed some excess on the brahmins or destroyed their hegemony on hindu affairs by supporting the kshatriya rajput cause. i advise the brahmins to forgive the invaders for ‘they dd not know what they were doing’. they must have felt that the rajputs were a better fighting unit than the brahmins who were of no use to them. gullible invaders and stupid fellows.and ketaki , u r doing a great harm to hindu pride by glorifying the success of these invaders and cheering their political success. by linking them to islam u r trying to make them heroes to more than 1.5 billion muslims.u r trying to suggest that muslim armies were far superior and hindu armies were inferior.that is not the truth. the muslim success was due to territorial tactics and political alliances with hindu kings , who had a score to settle with other hindu kings. when these muslim invaders captured delhi from another muslim ruler , here too the rajput alliance came in handy .no muslim armies invaded america or england or canada or mexico or south america . yet there is a significant presence of muslims in these regions .the spiritual side of islam is different and political muslim world is diferent .u must not forget that the americans spent a large amount of money from their own coffers and sacrificed american soldiers to create a muslim state in the heart of europe i.e. bosnia . the americans did not do it for the love of muslims . they did it to weaken former yugoslavia ,whose presence could be a threath to its capitalist friends in europe. so u see invasions are more about politics than religion.
a section of hindu and muslim fundamentalists , who have more political bent , and nothing to do with religion, are taking great pains to create a rift between common peace loving hindu and muslims .they fail to understand that india is a land of hardworking farmers who toil day and night to feed the nation and their families .70 percent of india is made up of farmers and agro based economic system . another 20 percent is made up of skilled and semi skilled labour force .and the remaining 10 percent is made up of industrialists , educationists ,prfessionals , bankers ,government servents etc.the last mentioned group of 10 percent has a few gullible politically motivated ideological people , who want to decide the fate of india. they do not care about the opinions of the other most important 90 percent . they include hindus and muslims both .they have this stupid belief of ‘superiority complex ‘ in them and think the remaining 90 percent are uneducated fools who know nothing.they think only their efforts are running this large country .this small section from the last mentioned 10 percent is actually creating all the trouble in india .they control the newspaper editorials , tv channels, internet opinions and political views of this country .fortunately they are hardly 2 percent of the entire population of india.the ‘law of averages’ cathches up with these self confessed intellectuals.
vck , last night the indian political establishment or congress leaders were aghast that barrack obama had called up asif ali zardari and spoken for 20 minutes, exchanging congratulatory messages in between.that barrack obama called up leaders of 15 nations but ignored india . i guess he will remember india when his term will be coming to an end , as is the ritual with all past american presidents .but why r we shedding tears over all this ?? we indians have more self pride than these pakistanis . pakistanis need american charity , and not we indians. our farmers are more ‘honourable men ‘ than the reagans , bushs,clintons and obamas.
short answer to your huuuge psot
You are making the same mistake that most Jihadi apologists make.
LTTE, ULFA or Maoists (who have a huge cadre base who are of Hindu origin), DO NOT COMMIT TERRORISM FOR THE SAKE OF HINDUISM.
Au contraire, all Jihadi groups, Hizbul, SIMI, IM, LET, JEM, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbolah…..list is endless..
openly proclaim and recieve support on the solely declared goal of fighting for Islam.
You see the difference. You see why the length of your post does not necessarily translate into “logical discourse”.
I also enjoy how you try to divide the Hindus by exploiting caste, regional nuances. Nice try friend, but this is not a general election out here.
Also Tarique,
Islamic terror groups are not my biggest concern….they can be dealt with easily by giving them their own medicine.
My biggest concern is the Koran and Islam itself.
Trust me, you yourself are a victim of that as much as I am.
ketaki ,this world is a victim of its own belief in superiority . i guess ur hate is inspired more from propoganda than any personal experience.thats the problem with the whole world . they want to print ‘bestsellers’ on the dead bodies of others .koran and islam cannot be a concern simply because 99 percent of the people of this world don’t understand it . people read more newspapers and watch more telivision then spend time understanding the true spirit of koran and islam.ketaki u r a victim of ‘believing in ur own propoganda’ and don’t try to blame islam or koran for the pain in ur head . think positive and u will learn to smile. think negative and u see only darkness in front of ur eyes.
Tarique:
My opinion is based more on actual research 🙂 and my inferences are based on what the past two millenium of world history has to offer.
You are right, its people like you who detach themselves from reality (and admittedly you seem to take pride in that, by tooting your “true spirit of Koran” polemic), that creates ideologically twisted mosters like Usama-bin-Laden.
In their own little twisted world, they think that they are doing the right thing (ofcourse Hitler and his henchmen felt the same way too and so did Mohammed and his cohorts)
You see, when 99% of the people in this world (by your own admittance) dont “understand” the Koran, as you seem to claim, there seems to be something seriously WRONG with it.
And furthermore, when another 70% of the Islamic population itself seems to misinterpret it, that is something very very serious to ponder about.
Afterall, Islam is not rocket science or Upnishadas 🙂
How can smile when there is so much suffering in this world and where human blood is shed by blind faith and young men die young and kill young for the sake of some imaginary virgins in some imaginary world.
It truely is darkness Tarique bhai…
@ tarique: you say: all hindus do not have problems with muslims , only the maharashtrian brahmin class (comment # 134) and the brahmins love to mix things up (comment #129)
I am not going to respond to either of the two comments but would just like to mention that if you want to be taken seriously, you need to be careful of making sweeping generalizations like the ones you have made – without offering any hypothesis or evidence to support what you are saying or believe to be true.
Ketaki
Very well said. I agree with whatever you said.
ketaki , ur research and inferences are done with the sole aim to make a villian out of every muslim in the world .either u r a pessimist or u love to present only half truths . u r quick to point out osama bin laden as a destructive muslim monster , but ur blindness fails to see that osama and mullah omar were trained ‘to kill’ and described as ‘freedom fighters’ by the americans , when they were attacking russia . when mullah omar recieved a bullet injury from a russian sniper , all medical facilities were made ready for his treatment by the americans. the CIA supplied them with the most sophisticated weopons and paid every mujahideen fighter as high as 1500 US DOLLARS per day for fighting the russians .so much high amount of money was paid in the early 80’s .the americans launched one of the most expensive insurgency operations in human history . was this not prmoting terrorism against russia ?? but ketaki and her likes will never accuse the ronald reagans coz they have a ‘white skin’ .after all the ‘hindu mahasabha’ wholeheartedly supported the british raj in india . i m a muslim and proud of it , no matter what the whole world has to say .my religion, my prophet , my holy book and my faith in allah is something i will proudly take to my grave .to each his own ‘my deeds are entirely mine ‘ and i will be answerable for that on earth as in heaven . the islam i learnt taught me ‘if u r good the whole world is good ‘.i firmly believe that islam and humanity will survive till the last peace loving man on earth .a bad muslim will see meet his bad fate ,a good muslim will always hold his head high even if he is the only one remaining on the planet.islam will survive and triumph till the last good muslim standing . the 1 percent who understand islam and the 30 percent moderates are enough to spread light and hope in this world .young men die in the belief of a revolution or a rebellion (RIGHT OR WRONG )and not for some imaginery virgins ,as ur perverted knowledge has taught u.islam maybe a rocket science because today everybody is curious about it .imaginary virgins , imaginary world ,ketaki wants to go where no man has gone before . i see no suffering at all in this world or in my country . the farmers are reaping harvest , the labour force is increasing the GDP ,AND MY COUNTRY HAS THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF YOUNG PEOPLE .only a handful of oversmart intellectuals see doom and suffering .their eyes fail to see the new revolution after every bad destruction .ketaki , if u see darkness all over , consult ur eye docter soon .i see fundamentalism as the ‘beginning of the end’ of a bad ideology .i see destruction as paving the way for a ‘new world order’.every young man who dies leaves behind a message of the ‘importance of peace’.throughout human history ,man has caused destruction ,yet it has paved way for a new modern construction.”u love islam or u hate islam ,but u will never be able to ignore islam”.
@tarique if you don’t minde, could you list the sources for above statements?
For example : “‘hindu mahasabha’ wholeheartedly supported the british raj in india”
etc?
hemant , my statement is not drawn from any website or internet links , but from newspaper regular columns i used to read of a noted columnist named lajpat rai during my college days. the newspaper was i guess ‘AFTERNOON ‘ or ‘MID-DAY’, i don’t remember exactly .his columns regularly dwelt on the hindu mahasabha’s open support to the british raj,their refusal to join the quit india movement ,and military support to the british in the second world war .before the partition of india they openly endorsed ‘jinnah’s two nation theory’.
ketaki,half truth seekers like u think they can get away with murder by saying ULFA , MAOIST OR LTTE do not fight in the name of hinduism .fine , let us all agree with u for a moment .but u need to do some soul searching in ur definition of ‘islamic terror ‘ too. what if the ULFA ,MAOISTS,NAXALS ,LTTE,ETC. given the same political situation , were made up of muslim based cadres ?? what if the hindu monarchy of nepal was toppled by a nepal based muslim group ?? ur double standards get exposed here . can i get away by saying hizbul, SIMI, LET ,JEM ,are groups unleashed on the indian nation by the pakistan army to avenge the territorial loss of bangladesh . that the top brass of the pakistan army is not made up of long bearded mullahs , but mostly clean shaven or moustached army officers ,who mostly recieved their basic education in US or UK.even their children study in these countries and not in madarsas . ketaki , let us not make the mistake of providing sanctuaries to merciless killers ,who are mostly motivated for political reasons, by calling names as ‘islamic terror’ or ‘hindu terror’.if hamas is an islamist group ,why r so many of its members palestinian christians ?? why has israel failed to make an ‘osama’ of hassan nasrullah ?? because hizbollah has cadres belonging to all religions of lebanon in its group.an interesting thing about lebanon ,hizbollah draws its cadres from 25 percent population irrespective of caste and religion . the remaining 75 percent is not involved in the conflict .they include shia ,sunni and christians .the shia are ideologically close to the sunni syrians ,the christians have tied up with iran , and the sunnis cheer the americans for deliverance.lebanon is famous not for its islamic culture , but for its sleazy night spots . they say about lebanon even today ”even when bombs are raining in beirut ,the lebanese discos never shut shop”. jinnah was a barrister from london who never set foot in a madarsa .he drank the best wine ,ate pork,never offered muslim prayers and lived his life in the high society of bombay .yet he became the leader of the indian muslim league ,because he had political ambitions and not because islam inspired his thoughts .ketaki , today the nation is going through a phase of ‘congress terrorism ‘ and ‘BJP terrorism’ and common hindus and common muslims are the victims of pre planned bomb blasts and communal riots . i will take the thought process that there is no ‘islamic terror’ or ‘hindu terror’ in this great country ,even if i have to face brickbats for it .JAIHIND.JAIBHARATMATA. VANDE MATARAM. SATYAMEVA JAYATE .
@ Tarique: In the spirit of dialogue and open-ness, I would like to make a constructive suggestion…it is really a request.
If you are willing to write something on this issue, I will be happy to edit and post it as a *Guest Post* on this blog.
Let me know what you think.
P.S. If you want to write about some other topic, let me know and we can discuss it.
You can email me privately at jaidharma AT gmail.com
@tarique so does it mean you don’t trust internet sources but somehow (for some reason!) you do trust a person named “lajpat rai” who used to write in a paper you don’t remember?
This looks a case of forming bias depending upon personal preference… nothing wrong in it, but one should not pretend to be ‘right’ in such cases!
I may have find two of the great articles by the ‘noted’ columnist mentioned by Tarique.
In one article “Politics is a bad word” (Mid-Day) this ‘noted’ columnist shows his inclination by statements like
“This is the why communal forces, the ideology of Hindut-
va, did not attract them after the lust four decades of
Independence.”
” It saw the youth,
who by then had no ideals to strive for, attracted to-
wards Hindutva after 1985. Enter communalism, which was injected into the Indian politics solely to divert the younger generation’s atten-tion from the ins of the free economy It costs nothing nor does it demand any sacrifice to hate Muslims.”
This rubbish can be read @http://www.hvk.org/articles/0996/0047.html
Another such propaganda article is at http://www.indiarightsonline.com/Sabrang/relipolcom2.nsf/5e7647d942f529c9e5256c3100376e2e/6aaf96832ca119c0e5256c0c004028fa/$FILE/bac18217.pdf
Here the ‘noted’ writer says “nor the WB is free from malice even though communists have been ruling there for 16 years”
Does this communist mean that left are free from corruption?
shantanu , terrorism can never be totally wiped out ,yet it can be strongly controlled in a country like india .infact india is better placed and blessed than many other nations to curb terrorist activities.let us view our great country in two sections to study terror activities .first , 70 percent of our land is fertile and promotes agricultural activities on a large scale.though our farmers work against all odds and even go to the extent of suicides , this 70 percent sector is mostly free from terrorism.but we must not get complacent and takes things for granted here too . the government must take honest and probing efforts to make this sector more stronger ,because this is the single biggest strenght of our nation .the more this sector grows the more powerful our nation will become ,and it will also reduce the level of violence in the country .this sector is also the biggest safeguard for ‘hinduism’.the more weaker the agricultural sector becomes the more dangers this country will face .i think one of the biggest steps to promote communal harmony among young people ,would be to start encouraging them to engage in agricultural activities for atleast 3 years of their young life .please do not make a fun of my suggestion , as i m commenting from the core of my heart.a urban hindu will discover his missing links of his search for hinduism , a muslim will feel like a ‘son of the soil’ and will discover that his roots are in india and not in the barren deserts of arabia . i know all this will not be practically possible and dubbed as ‘wild ideas’ , but it is a more moderate suggestion than a compulsory 3 year military training mooted by some section .agriculture teaches u both ,success and failure ,to restart life after a failed crop .it teaches family values and above all courage . a few farmers commit suicide , but still they account for 70 percent of our GDP and facilitate large scale employment across the country .u will never hear about a farmer , hindu,muslim or sikh setting up bomb blasts .what is the difference between punjab and kashmir ? punjab was always fertile and rich in agriculture ,whereas kashmir lacks agricultural farming activities in its mountaineous regions .terrorism in punjab could not last for more than a decade , and it made inroads in punjab only because it shared a border with pakistan during the peak period of the invasion of afghanistan by russia.indira gandhi made a few diplomatic blunders in its pro russian stance , and soon CIA and ISI infilterated arms to unemployed youths in these states bordering pakistan.punjab soon realised that terrorism would harm their agro based industries and pakistan punjab region was not profitible for them.kashmir was not blessed with agriculture and bad relations with jammu furthur destroyed their income from apple orchards . the hurriyat made things worse by driving out kashmiri pandits ,leading to a largescale army presence in the valley.now even tourism was gone.f u look at the north east , here too there is a lack of agricultural activities .the tribal regions of chattisgadh ,orissa,madhya pradesh too lack agriculture leading to maoist and naxal activities.the solution to kashmir ?keep talking to pakistan as long as it takes .a lot of readers may not be aware but 16 percent of east kashmir is occupied by china too.the key here lies with the pakistan army ,who is bleeding india through kashmir for the territtoial loss of bangladesh and the humilation the pakistan army faced when we entered lahore and conquered it .the kashmiris are moderate people ,but the hurriyat is full of ‘hawks’ who are backed by pakistan , west and america for various reasons .the hurdles are immense ,yet let us hope in a decade or two the pakistani army comes up with sensible people in their ranks and their modern education in the west makes their hearts softer .meanwhile keep the peace talks going and buy time till their western backers collapse .
now the remaining 30 percent of our barren lands or lands not fit for agricultural use ,and this 30 percent includes our urban cities. this sector is the ‘most terrorist prone’ in our country .in the north east we share borders with 3 military establishment with whom we share a ‘blow hot blow cold’ kind of relationship.let us also add nepal to it, and u get the picture.so nepal,bangladesh,burma and china.though we claim to have friendly relations with these nations , the fact remains that our armies remain on a high alert on all these borders too.the reason ? all these countries are poor and failed economies ,even chinese part bordering india is very poor .so sometimes even these countries create trouble on our borders , by infilterating armed ultras to drive some economic bargaining with india .now coming to the ‘big cities ‘ or our urban centres .these are the nerve centres of our economic progress .now our enemies across the border and world know that striking these urban business centres will cause more financial as well as collateral damage to the prospering indian nation .they know india is diverse with various linguistics and religions and castes .i think we must address the religious problems ,especially hindu and muslim types,before our enemies discover our soft underbelly .for this we need tough measures like reforms in religious activities .the largest minority is muslim and alienated from the mainstream . poverty adds to their woes and lack of modern education makes them cases for terrorist exploitation and brainwashing.there are hindus too in this country who feel left out of the previlaged hindu mainstream.let us here not make the mistake of branding all poor as most likely to get attracted to terrorism .there are the rich mafia bosses ,the greedy politicians,the mafia who control our mineral resources in bihar ,chattisgadh, etc,the slum mafia ,the vote bank mafia ,the forest reserves mafia who parade as naxals and maoists ,the corrupt few armymen who set fires who our arms depots,after having sold army stocks to dangerous people.the dangers this 30 percent faces are immense and all this is just the tip of the iceberg .now back to the religious reforms.i feel all places of worship ,irrespective of any religion,should come under taxation laws.the purpose should not be revenue but accountability and national responsiblity .
a tax on all religions ?? why not ?if i do do peaceful business in this country i have to file tax returns and show the sources of my income to tax scrutiny . religious places of worship get crores from unknown sources and not a single question is asked .huge mammoth mosques and temples are built in this country costing tens of crores of rupees and the donor is unknown to any government or police agency . is this a correct trend ?another worrying aspect is the land grabbing that goes on in the name of religion .the biggest worry are playgrounds and open space meant for our young children to play . i complained to a hindu friend of mine ”yaar the open space meant for kids to play in my muslim area has been grabbed by the UP mullah mafia and three illegal mosques have come up on it . how can i stop it .”i asked .he replied ” forget it buddy . just look at shivaji park and soon the temple trust will be occupying a lot more with nobody to oppose.” sorry if this comment of mine hurt anybody’s sentiments, but these are harsh truths which we r ignoring . one day it will boomerange on us all in the form of communal riots and bomb blasts.that is why the government must make the trustees of mosques and temples pay dearly for every inch they occupy.a police monitering on friday sermons and distribution of pamplets and propoganda material thoroughly inspected .even hindu religious leaders with suspicious backgrounds must be watched .a lot of u will oppose me on grounds of ‘freedom of religion’, but i think the life of innocent people is more precious than a few protesting mullahs and sadhus .religion is not a problem here , the problem is greed and religious leaders getting carried away by mass hysteria and adulation. a muslim mullah starts screaming in the mike when he gets carried away. he needs to be reminded that mike is meant to speak softly and it will automatically carry his voice in a louder tone .the government must look in these direction even if hurts a few sentiments in any religion.but the biggest terrorists are our greedy politicians .how does one reform them ?well i don’t have a clue yet ,maybe shantanu knows more on this.to conclude ,even intellectuals promote hate and terrorism by twisting history and events in a manner , that creates anger and hate . when my 8 year old daughter came back from school and told me ”i hate these hindus and i want to change my school” . i was shattered as we had not brought her up to think in that manner . when she cooled down she said the girl sitting next to her in her class told her that she belonged to a cruel muslim community that planted bombs and killed innocents , they killed animals for pleasure and that her dad would marry 3 more times .i told her to be cool and friendly and not react too much. i did not say anything much as i did not want to confuse an 8 year old.if intellectual blogs on the internet have no rationalism in them and do not promote proper understanding ,they will do more damage to society than any taliban mullah.
naxalites , maoists , ULFA, …. are they regional rebels or bandits propped up by greedy politicians and beaureaucrats to control the natural resources , forest reserves ,and mines etc .an honest scrutiny is required as it is creating poverty and social rebellion in our tribal zones where these activists are located . to conclude , i forgot an important point . the regionalisation of religions . i feel to control hate and communal riots ,the government must take strong steps and convince mosques ,temples and churches to appoint the imam ,pujari or priest from the local population . for example , if a temple is located in a thane village ,the priest must come from within a square kilometre radius and must be from one among the locals or must have resided there for atleast 20 years . same for mosques and churches and preachers .a uttar pradesh mullah must not preach in a kerala mosque .he must confine to his own village and if he cannot find work there, he must find other sources of employment.the regionalism in religions is important to understand local sentiments , and a religious leader who has lived for 20 years will be well acquainted with the locals of other religions too. this will help in ‘love and respect ‘ and better understanding ,irrespective of religion .and also the importance of promoting english medium schools ,moving along with the times.government must wake up to the reality that urdu ,tamil,kannada ,marathi medium schools have outlived their utility .gujratis of mumbai have shown the way by converting all their gujrati medium schools into english mediums,with gujrati as an optional language.others have to follow suit as false pride and false regional sentiments lead to anger among regional youths who feel left behind in the modern race .a lot of people oppose my views on this saying a lot of vernacular students have achieved a lot of success. i say ”ok fine i agree with u ,but did these successful people admit their kids to the same regional schools or opted for english medium schools ”. they agree with me that most preferred english medium schools , but still hold on to the regional views .
my views may be very far fetched and in many cases not practically possible , please do not counter it with any anger on me.and shantanu ,please edit the comments if has got too long and boring .
after the godhra riots where a large number of muslims had been killed and there was widespread anger among muslims a few ignorant muslims made comments like ”gujrat will now go the kashmir way ”i shut them down by saying ”even if a million muslims died in gujrat riots ,still gujarat will never go the kashmir way. they asked me the reason . i explained to them that the geopolitical situation of gujrat and kashmir was very different . gujrat was rich in agriculture ,had a very large coastline and heavy and small scale industries to create enough work for people . the wounds will heal one day and people would get back to daily life as in the old days . the muslims of gujrat have a lot at stake in gujrat to throw it all away for the sake of destructive terrorism . since then i feel happy i have been proved right.
gopinath munde sought a CBI probe into the alleged suicide of vishnu bhatt, an assistant commisoner of police with the ATS IN 2006 .munde alleged that bhatt was forced by some of his seniors to falsely implicate certain muslim youths in 7/11 blasts . unable to withstand the pressure , he ended his life by falling in front of a local train at dadar in september ,2006 .——times of india ,13 nov 2008. ( NOW IF GOPINATHJI IS SUCH AN HONEST MAN WHY DID HE KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT SINCE 2006 )
@ Tarique: Thanks for your comments on tackling terrorism…
This thread is now getting seriously unwieldy so I would request you to please post the comments on the appropriate threads (You can use the search box at the top right-hand side to find what you are looking for – or use the category drop down menu in the right hand side panel at the bottom).
At some point today/tomorrow, I will move all your terrorism related comments (from y’day) to this thread:
Tackling Terrorism: One Step at a Time
Please continue follow-up comments on terrorism on the post mentioned above *not* here.
Follow-up comments on Godhra, Malegaon etc should be posted on the appropriate threads..
e.g. Godhra here
and Malegaon here
***
All: In the interest of a smooth reading experience, consistency and relevance, I would make the same request to all of you. Please post comments on the appropriate thread(s). It is not that difficult to find. Thanks.
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
Shri Trivedi sounds a good RSS agent
And a good “So called expert†on jamia Nagar
Does Mr Trivedi know that JAmia Nagar is the place where India’s most educated and young Muslims reside. A young white collar job job possesed class.
Ya i can acknowldge that there are some criminal element and land Mafia, but tell me any place in India or world where these element are not present.
Nakshab: Thanks for your comment…I dont think I have seen you on this blog before…so, Welcome.
There is this sentence in the second excerpt (not from Sh Trivedi): “Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in most spheres.”
Do you agree with this assessment?
*** UPDATE ***
Comments are now closed on this thread. Pl. see my comment dt 15th Nov ’08 (above Nakshab’s comment).