Jamia Nagar: A dangerous cocktail…
…of vote-bank politics, breakdown in law and order, land mafias and alienated ghettoes. Please read on…
I received this email about the Jamia Nagar encounter last weekend. It is from Shri Anant Trivedi. Sh Trivedi is an eminent and respected citizen of Delhi working mostly in areas of good governance and improving the lot of the citizens. It is important to mention that Shri Trivedi is NOT affiliated to any political party or organisation.
The email paints a bleak picture of vote-banks, breakdown in law-and-order and a fearful minority that appears helpless against increasing radicalisation. Reproduced in full below:
*** Email from Sh Trivedi ***
This area (Jamia Nagar) is very close to my colony and I have been there several times to attend functions organised by the previous MLC Asif Mohd Khan. It is a no go area for the law and order machinery, and BSES meter readers. The area is densely populated and resembles any other north UP city where there is a Muslim majority. Urdu is the only language of the region. Asif was a guest in Tihar for several months caught up in a Pota case.
I previously knew the area back in 70s and then it was totally different. My in-laws used to own most of the land we often spent time at the Bhaskar farm which is now one of the ‘posh’ residential compounds here.
At the last MLA elections I visited a school in Zakir Nagar where voter’s id cards were being made and was shocked to notice that any one could get a card made after dishing out 100 Rs. No questions asked. So a visitor from Pakistan or Bangladesh could legitimately become an Indian citizen for a mere Rs100. For once you have a voter photo card then the rest follows.
Not long ago some one engineered a fight with a police constable to stop police patrolling of the area. A small qoran was deliberately knocked off a dhela and that gave them the excuse to start a fight. The local constable got trapped into this. Soon the local Sub SHO Sharma and a few other staff also got drawn into the melee and Sharma was thrashed so badly that he is lucky to be alive today. Okhla chowki was burnt down. Shaheen Bagh chowki became a Thana with all Muslim staff and the police now keep a distance form the whole area.
While the reporters were covering the live action (on the weekend), Asif Mohd Khan was hovering in the area and people had already started concocting stories that the police had come in about 3.00 am with the 3/4 of those killed. Planted them in the flat and then came back in the morning for the fake encounter. Huge crowds gathered behind the police lines and at about midday you could already hear loud anti police noises from the crowds fuelled by fake encounter stories. If police were not there in numbers and well armed, they would have been massacred.
What we are witnessing here is the result of years of vote bank politics in which poor from all over UP, Bihar, Bangladesh have been persuaded to settle in this area with false promises of livelihood by the likes of Parvez Hashmi. Even Salman Khurshid who lives in the area close to Batla House has done nothing to stem this steady tide of people coming in with hope of a better future than in UP, only to be caught up in mounting debt and living conditions no better than what they left behind.
They also become victim to the wrong elements from the local mosques who are always there to use religion as a tool to exploit the vulnerable. Our politicians are each day raising expectations of the vulnerable unsuspecting minorities. When stories of fake encounters and police excesses start circulating, then there are plenty of buyers of such stories since the mind has already been conditioned to expect this. It is quite possible that Police too desperate to produce results will sometimes engineer such encounters. But it is most unlikely that this was fake for after all why would the police provide arms to ‘those they planted’ only to have their own colleague got killed later?
It is always tempting to generalise, but the majority of Muslims in this area are not with jihadi tendancy. They are law abiding and peaceful, and want to get ahead in life. But they find it very difficult to stand up the criminal element, which is always ready to exploit religion or muscle to suppress any resistance to their criminal intent. Right next door to my home exists a small largely Muslim colony Zakirbagh. They have a small colony prayer hall that has been hijacked by outsiders and now the residents are totally helpless and at a loss on how to rescue their small colony where thousands assemble for prayers. The prayer hall leaders are no more than 4/5 in number! The block of flats next to the prayer hall is where Gov. Kidwai’s family lives as well as Hassan Ahmad a prominent Congressman. Fearful of arousing religious sentiments, no one attempts to restrict entry of outsiders. Once prayer times were changed, and hundreds warned these hapless residents not to interfere with prayer issues ever again.
The cocktail of religion and politics is very potent and increasingly used by the politician.
Changing this situation and the mindset of the vulnerable minorities and helping them out of the rot they are in, is one of the biggest challenges for concerned citizens of India today.
***
Sh Trivedi’s conclusion is sobering and though-provoking…If you think he is over-estimating the challenge, pl. read these excerpts from a ”first-hand” account of the encounter…and notice the extraordinary parallels…vote-bank politics, breakdown in law-and-order, political goons, land mafia…
*** Excerpts Begin ***
…The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV channels
…Most local people are surprised at the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local residents got to know about the incident only after the two people had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their constables.
…Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall to get the best shot while they beat the local rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of terrorists.
But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot of angry conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and clichéd for anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) since last few days. Most local residents feel that this was a stage-managed encounter just like so many others that have taken place in the past. However, with the news about the death of a police inspector, this claim is less likely to be taken seriously. But still, I did not find a single local resident who is not fed up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst against their portrayal.
…most local residents believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House’s backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting bribe from its operators any day).
…The local people, frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, simply squirm and hide in their personal ghettos.
*** End of Excerpts ***
I am now beginning to wonder whether the first step in tackling terrorism is an overhaul of the political system?
P.S. The “encounter” has raised questions of its own…but nothing is what it seems to be
Related Posts:
A tribute to Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma
Tackling Terrorism: One Step at a Time
Dear Shantanu
In a system as dirty as the one that exists in India with the reputation of the politicians and police completely sullied, no one really knows whom to believe.
Of course, there will always be excellent members in each organisation and thousands of outstanding police officers and personnel have not only fought crime but laid down their life for the safety of citizens. Many of the police may be corrupt but they are still imbued with a sense of duty.
The police need good leaders and at times they are fortunate to get them, at others they are not. The idea of a police station in the heart of Delhi manned on communal lines (only Muslim police) is antithetical to the role and purpose of the police and is a sign of bad leadership.
The clean up needed in India is massive and yes, you are right: it has to start at the top. Good people are reluctant and perhaps unable to enter politics successfully. But that can’t go on for ever. Well organised resistance to the system through a major political movement will surely succeed in the end. That is what the Freedom Team aims to launch in the coming years, provided it finds a sufficient number of leaders willing to contest elections as a team and challenge the existing system. This is not a one-man job, but India is sadly full of too many people - millions of them - who are happy to talk about problems but refuse to organise systematically to change things through the existing democratic process which is the most powerful legitimate option open to them.
For those interested in really making a difference - but in a well-considered and systematic manner - please consider joining the Freedom Team at http://freedomteam.in
Regards
Sanjeev
Comment by Sanjeev Sabhlok | September 26, 2008
I think you should include intellibriefs on your blogroll. Here is a sample:
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2005/01/goadhra-burning-coach-s-6-of-sabarmati.html
Very thorough report. We need more of these.
Comment by Vinay | September 26, 2008
godhra, jamia, ayodha or many other names.there is one thing common. hindu got killed and muslim enjoyed. when hindu backlessed hindu objacted on behalf of muslim. there is always two side of coin, but why we hindu are always on down side or loseing side. let’s assume jamia was planed encounter, can anyone deny hand of muslim in delhi bomb blast. the guys killed at jamia was terrorist that matter most. even if it was planned, it was for mass wellbegin. wht happen after godhra was right, if we have some leader like modi we won’t be faceing the present situation. i m not telling to kill every muslim, but if u want to live in peace u have to tell others that we can defend ourself. this is just political propoganda that muslim is minority or weaker class in india, muslim enjoys more then any other community in india. but still we are doing nothing.
Comment by tarun garg | September 26, 2008
@ Sanjeev: Thanks for your comments… I really wish these things bring more and more people on to the FTI platform..
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@ Vinay: Thanks for the link….I will have a look…
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@ tarun: I think you are being too emotional here at the cost of being rational…
I cannot ever justify the killing of innocents…There can be a lot of theories about why riots happen…but surely we cannot say that they are “right”
Pl. reconsider what you wrote in the comment above…in particular:
“…what happen after godhra was right”
Comment by B Shantanu | September 26, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
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my dear indian brothers and sisters, it is time we understood that there are only two religions today in human society, ‘the haves’ and ‘the have nots’.i noticed in post independence india that hindu cause the maximum damage to their own community and the same goes for the muslims.today if u look around mosques and temples u will find the trustees of these places of worship as rich people with a lot of political connections. this is the tragedy with religion in india. the worst part is that 99 percent of the people in this country don’t properly understand what their religion stands for, be it hindu or muslim . as regards religion most of us blindly follow what we r told from childhood.i assure u that the majority of indian citizens are peace loving and close family knit people.10 percent rotten eggs exist in every society.i think the problem of intolerence in india is deep rooted in the state of uttar pradesh.it is the largest political state of india, sends the highest number of MP’s to parliament, has the most important religious centres of both hindus and muslims, has all the disputed places of worship in post indepence india,and not to forget the rising regional satraps like mayawati , mulayam and company.it is time we started thinking on rational lines at roots of problems rather than suspecting people on religious lines.i m from azamgadh and i must say the recent events regarding azamgadh started unfolding after ramakant yadav who switched to BJP after flirting with samajwadi party and bahujan samaj party lost the recent by poll MP election. he was the strongman of azamgadh and brother of the dreaded umakant yadav who tried to strip mayawati in the assembly.before we jump to conclusions and start suspecting our own countrymen we must as true indians start thinking on rational lines. jaihind. satyameva jayate.
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after ramakant yadav lost the MP election from azamgadh , he swore revenge on the muslims who he openly blamed for his defeat. his supporters shouted slogans like ” uttar pradesh ko gujarat banayenge aur start azamgadh se karenge”.we must also not forget the role played by a few muslim seminaries in misguiding unemployed muslim youths in uttar pradesh.as a muslim it hurts me a lot when madarssas teach more arab history than indian history. a young muslim boy knows more what happened in arabia 1400 years ago but is ignorant about the peaceful spread of islam in india by sufi saints and peers like khwaja chisti or nizamuddin auliya who were respected and highly regarded by both muslims and hindus. these uttar pradesh madarssas never teach about sai baba who was a muslim but has most hindu followers because he preached the scriptures of ‘love and respect’ for all.a lot of muslim youths don’t even know when and how islam arrived in india.this disease of intolerence is being mostly spread from the state of uttar pradesh and is harming both hindu and muslim homes. in uttar pradesh hindu society has too been divived of sectarian lines like yadav, chamar, kurmi, thakur, etc etc . just for political gains. this is harming hindu society too. we can see the repucussions of it in maharashtra in the ‘anti north indian ‘ drive by the shiv sena and raj thackeray. i noticed that hindu and muslim religious leaders fom uttar pradesh are spreading their divisive agenda to other states of india. i state all this as a rational person and as a concerned indian to my fellow brothers.i believe if we indians start thinking on rational lines and discuss are true feelings without any religious bias we can clear a lot of misunderstandings amongst us all. the truth always wins or say it with pride ’satyameva jayate’
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terrorism has no religion or face . it is mostly political agenda where religion is sometimes used as a mask to cover or justify wrong doings. terrorism mostly ends up taking innocent human lives and ends up in guilt for those who commit terror. thats when for the sake to hide their guilt they use religion as a justification. the tragedy is that post 9/11 even a rebel is a terrorist.all over the world barring a few exceptions the so called rebels or terrorists are mostly from the poor or underprevilaged class. in india it is kashmiri or a north east india or from the poor moslem minority mostly not to forget tribal naxalites and maoist rebel groups.it is never a upper caste previlaged hindu person . in sri lanka it is the poor tamil hindu who r the root of all suicide attacks, the ruling sinhalese are always peace loving buddhists . in pakistan the terrorist comes mostly from kashmir, baluchistan or north west frontier region who r mostly poor . the rich sindhi or punjabi muslims are always seen as leading the ‘war on terror’.same pattern is followed in europe where eastern european communists state are mostly the terrorists while the rich west europe is a highly civilised society. in america the terrorists are mostly ‘black skinned’.in the arab world 19 hijackers of 9/11 were saudi arabian nationala but still they say all arab terror comes from iraq , yemen, syria, lebanon , who had past communist leanings. the rich arab states like kuwait , saudi , dubai and qatar and bahrain are victims of terrorism according to western experts.i say all this because post 9/11 we young people are getting confused between rebels and terrorists and religion.no religion preaches violence .sometimes we confuse a regional struggle as a religious struggle. not many people know but the palestinian christians fight alongside muslims against israel. a lot of christians in lebanon support hizbollah in its arm struggle and even fight and die with them. the LTTE in sri lanka has tamil cadres of all faiths.a naxalite or a maoist in india cannot be labelled a ‘hindu terrorist’ and yet in most cases i feel hurt when everyone shouts ‘muslim terrorist’ or ‘islamic terrorist’.how can a terrorist be identified with his religion when 99 percent of humans on this earth don’t even know what their religion stands for ???
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i hate it when people accuse islam of spreading violence and hate.violence and killing are a unavoidable dynamic of human society and existed many thousands of years even before islam was born.if islam promoted terror then indonesia with the highest muslim population would have been the biggest terrorist nation.i know a muslim man who framed his own brother as a member if al qaeda after they quarrelled over property dispute. i know a moslem trustee of a mosque who got expelled for stealing charity funds go to the ‘bajrang dal ‘ office and tell them that the mosque members were planning a bomb blast.it is true that the 1993 mumbai blasts was the handiwork of muslim criminal elements but not all bomb blasts are carried out by muslims.the muslims will continue to pay a very heavy price for the sins committed in 1993 in mumbai.it has given the political parties of india to use this big weakness or blunder committed by misguided muslims to their advantage when some important elections draw near. only poor middle class innocent hindus get targetted in these blasts and muslim youth from midle class or poor get picked up as suspects.some are killed in stage managed encounters others interrogated for months without a proper chargesheet. the media paints them as villians even before they are tried and convicted. in a lot of cases after the person has been given a clean chit the media never even cares to inform the general public.
Comment by tarique | September 27, 2008
Tarique: I don’t think I have seen you on this blog before…So, welcome.
You have made a number of good and valid points on which I will comment in a day or two…
It is always refreshing and educative to hear an insider’s point of view…I will be looking for more perspective and context seeing that you are from Azamgarh…
In the meantime, I am sure others too will add their thoughts.
Welcome to the discussion.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 27, 2008
Shantanu I stand by my statement that “wht happen after godhra was right and needed.”. this is my thinking and I firmly say that.
I an not a supporter of riots or innocent killings. I never support violence. I never want to see bloodbath or massacres. But this is truth of society. All this things happen. Shantanu I want to ask u something if I come to ur home and slap ur child, without any reason will u say thank u to me? It is obvious that either u will stop me or if I still don’t stop u will hit me back. Does that means u r supporting violence? Wht happen after godhra was right because certain ppl was under impration that they can do anything to Indian people and hindus or people of India will not retaliate ever. I m not telling muslim cause I agree bomb don’t see any religion. But same time we should agree that muslim community really plays a big role in Indian terrorist activist.
Tarique, I agree with u that not all muslims are bad and I fully support u on this that more then 95% of hindu and muslim population don’t know wht there religion is. Wht is true message of there respective religion. But tarique u tell me one thing atleast we can make diffrance wht is good and wht is bad. If u knows that in madrass wht they teach is not good for human society, then why parents send there children to learn there? Doesn’t every parent knows wht there child is learning? I agree poverty is root cause of many evils, and every terrorist organization will look for one problem or other to attract people. But the decision is on one’s will too. If u check the recent terrorist profile they are well educated and well informed. So it is in one’s mind that decide it’s destiny. Cause of poverty or other political reason both community suffer equally. This is a social problem and we shd fight with it toghther. But because ur denied something that is y ur killing others is not a valid reason to kill.
shantanu, if u want to live in peace u have to fight for peace. In war u don’t see that whom ur bullet will hit the only aim of war is to break ur enemy by any means. I am not saying who got killed in riots are all terrorist, but there killing and the most important the united reaction people showed really made terrorist think . godhra , babri masjid, recent bomb blast really made Indian people closer. I agree that there is politics behind all this but we can’t blame only politics or politicians for everything. We have to take responsibility too.
Comment by tarun garg | September 27, 2008
thanx a lot shantanu for welcoming me. i promise to be a asset to this site . i like to speak from my heart and would like my other brothers to do the same here without any fear or favour. jaihind. satyameva jayate.
Comment by tarique | September 27, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
tarun i think violence in india is more due to ignorance than religion. the violence level in dalits or muslims will be more because they may have an inside feeling of alienation and fear.kindly don’t mistake that as a anti national activity. sometimes insecurity in a particular community drives them to crime. the best case is the ‘black skinned’ blacks in prosperous america or advanced europe.indian muslims suffered a lot due to partition regarding jobs in police,army and governance sectors. this created a deep feeling of alienation. same case can be found amongst the tamils in sri lanka or the naxals or maoist who feel the syastem has let them down.even a brother kills his own brother sometimes in a family when he feels left behind. i m not justifying anything here, violence the least. tarun, i m only trying to imply that these things are a part of human dynamics of human society from time immemorial.and please dont talk bad about the dead till they are proved guilty.look at the amount of damage we have already done to society by jumping to conclusions in the arushi case.i know for sure and i stand by it that 99 percent highly educated muslim youths will die but not kill innocents.all madarssas are not bad as u think it to be. besides mostly the under previlaged class of muslims sent their kids to study there as lodging and boarding are very cheap there. rich muslims send their kids to the best schools they can afford.and these shady madarssas are mostly emerging on the uttar pradesh nepal border recently of siddharth nagar which has recently come to my notice.i started my blog if u remember the seed of hate enamating from the state of uttar pradesh. tarun, the role of some fundamentalist hindu organisation is also not clear from that state if u can highlight it for all of us to combat it in future.fundamentalist from both religions badly need each other to survive. please dont discount the possiblities of a joint venture between hindu and mus;lim fundamentalists.
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tarun if sumone comes to ur home and slaps ur child it does not mean he is doing it out of an ideology or religion. he is doing it coz he has no sense or lacks common knowledge
Comment by tarique | September 27, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
meaningless violence is very common in india and poor regions of africa. if u by any mistake while driving a car in a remote indian village happen to crush a hen the entire village comes out and surrounds u with lathis.then u r threathened tp pay compensation or else get ur bones broken.a lot of domestic violence in our poverty regions are of this type. they take religious diemensions in some cases when the cockfighters happen to belong to two diferent religions
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i want to assure all our india brothers that azamgarh is not a ‘nursery of terror’ as it is being made out to be by many sections of public and media. it is one of the shining lights of india when it comes to ‘intellectual struggle’. azamgarh is barren piece of land in eastern uttar pradesh with very little agrictural land for cultivation. the older generation of this state strived very hard to build strong academic and religious institutions within the state to prevent the criminalisation of this state.both hindus and muslims contributed a lot to this effort. azamgarh produced a lot of eminent educationists , poets , freedom fighters and many successful personalities despite the bad geography of the state .this is no small achievement for any landlocked place in the world if u get my point correct.a youth of azamgarh gets easily drawn to education and reading coz he has very few other options in his state . he has very little fertile land at his disposal to feed his family.most azmi’s study and venture outside the state or even abroad for better opportunities.but the stumbling block for educationists in azamgarh arrived when in the late 70’s atal bihari vajpayee as external affairs minister in the janata party government opened us visa facilities for cheap labour export to the booming gulf oil economy.it made a lot of young boys in this landlocked state shun education and move out out for the sake of low paid manual labour. that was the beginning of the destruction of the education movement of azamgarh.young boys hardly out of their teens were lining up to get their passports ready rather than go for higher education. the low paid manual labour money was still more lucrative than a clerk’s job in an indian office when the oil boom began in the gulf.despite all these flaws that crept in u will always find an educated azmi very broad minded and open to discussions from his heart. after all azamgarh has its deep roots in the education movement and not in the ‘easy money’ movement that brought a few uneducated azmi’s to sully the reputation of our state.even a tiny particle from our great educational institutions has the power to change to change the world thinks. azamgarh will rise again to its pristine glory and show the world the power of truth
Comment by tarique | September 27, 2008
Dear Sir,
it is so welcome to have a joust of fresh air in these turbulent times. Mr. Tarique speaks sense and I am sure we can build few more righteous people on to your blog to bring dignity to a portion of bloggers who sincerely write here.
The only jarring point in the theory of Shri Tarique is that poverty leads to this form of thought towards aggressiveness.
My father had no clothes to wear and he and his siblings used to eat from the floor swept clean after sleeping dressing and studying! Yes, only one room for eight people but he did not turn a terrorist.
Dr. Ambedkar, a man before whom the whole world bows ia a beacon in this area. I need not repeat his story, but he did not turn a terrorist.
We know of Dr. Abdul kalam.
We know of Mr. Rao the founder of Woodlands, who was a lowly cleaner before he started his chain of Hotels, very famous in the south.
How many should I point out.
it is not education alone that makes or breaks a man. it is his upbringing. Shri Tarique has pointed out that after the flood gates of the Gulf were opened, instead of studying many people went to work rather than study.
I hope many people will have read the story of “The Verger” by Somerset Maugham.
It is the movies and the loud living of the politicians that has contributed more to this level of degradation rather than lack of education.
The person who sharpens my knife is an uneducated Muslim. The person who does the polishing of my vessels is an uneducated Muslim. I gave these two examples as these two people ARE NOT TERRORISTS.I leave my house open when they are doing their work with my two DAUGHTERS alone with them and I feel so safe with them around. No jokes about it.
Let me tell you Sir, there are no born terrorists either Muslim or Hindu or otherwise. It is their lack of confidence in themselves, and how society deals with the poor or the farmer.
An uneducated farmer who gives us our daily bread is looked down upon as he wears dirty clothes and smells.We do not appreciate him. Unless we learn to respect ourselves and consequently others there will be no end to this story.
About uneducated farmers. Two MBA’s were driving down the road when they met a farmer. They wanted to play a game on him. They stopped the car and asked him if he had change for an “Eighteen Rupee note”.
The farmer asked them to wait and went into his ramshackle hut and came out with a battered wallet and asked them ‘Do you want THREE SIXE’s or TWO NINES”!!!
Let us learn to respect and we will learn to respect the world.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | September 27, 2008
@ Tarique
No doubt as you said Terrorist and terrorism has no face… like you mentioned the LTTE or Naxalbari people are Hindus
but there is a reason why they arent termed as “Hindu terrorist” None of the henious acts performed by these above two terrorist outfits are under the name of GOD OR RELIGION. please highlight me if any of the LTTE or Maoist brainwashing their cadre with religion and on the name of Ram asking them to commit sucide bombings or killing innocent… and attend swarga(heaven)
Now why the branding as Islamic terrorist!!.. i’l explain
All Muslims are not Terrorist nor all the terrorist who are caught are Muslims, but all dharmic terrorist or a religious terrorist are always Muslim .. all over the world.. i.e.
to incite voilence in the name of Allah(GOD) in the name of Jihad and kill other people and attend jannat ..this kind of ideology is only taught in muslim terrorist camps… thats why ALL religious terrorist are muslim… the term islamic terrorist
So terrorism has no face but terrorism on the name of religion has a face!
Further you gave an example of Indonesia… i will further add singapore too which has a good number of Islamic population…still no islamic terrorist… why? again where is islam taught???… in the mosques.. by whom … islamic preist or mulavis right!.. these mullas in the above to countries are following rules by the kuraan… and arent twisting the meanings of kuraan and are not preaching hatred.. unlike in some parts of India and in terrorist camps.
There is story where the villain no matter slaughtered still he comes to life.. but finaly when the king/hero kills a parrot sitting on the tree the villan dies.. or in short the villains life was into that parrot…
shivaji maharaj killed afzal khan.. but now another afzal has arosed?.. why.. because we are not killing the parrot..
and the parrots are these mulavies(islamic clerics)…
These high ranking muslim clerics are issuing ridiculus fathwahs… fatwah against salman khan… why because he workships ganpati, fathwah against sania mirza because she wears clothes not applicable in islam.. i dont understand why arent these same clerics arent issuing fathwahs against Afzal guru? or Osama bin Laden or any other convicted terrorist
Osama bin laden was inspired by an fundamentalist islamic cleric in the university which he was learning…. so until these clerics are not censored … the religious ideological terrorism will continue…
(govt has also issue gag order against these people too for inciting voilence via their friday sermons)
further there is one more parrot to kill… and that is Indian national congress.. with its absolutly ridiculus pension policies for islamic terrorist families and meaningless sacchar report
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Further i would also like to mention.. the muslim minority of india.. is really still poor and uneducated… still away from banking system and the judicial system..(uniform civil code)… sairabano case where even after supreme court ordered her husband to pay her alimony.. the verdict was turned against her, is the famous ones where how the some of these islamic clerics are treating the women under the name of koran and sharia and islamic law!..
Muslim in India really need upliftment so as you mentioned instead of they going to these shady madarasa they can go to a proper school… but i dont support the Sacchar committee report … as it includes 5crore bangaleshi muslims.. which is not our liability.
जय हिंद! जय महाराष्ट्र!!
Comment by Mahesh Patil | September 28, 2008
@@edition
shahabano case and not sairabano case
Comment by Mahesh Patil | September 28, 2008
mr. krishnan and mr. mahesh as i told u in my blog that 10 percent rotten eggs exist in all societies . if there are muslim fanatics in india then there are fanatics who r poisoning south india which is normally peaceful by burning down churches too. yet we can proudly say that 95 percent hindus are tolerant and peace loving majority.i never said poverty encourages terror , i only meant to say that no one points a finger when a rich nation does it.the americans armed the poor afghans during the cold war with russia.today poor afghans are terrorists while the rich americans are leading the ‘war on terror’. u get my point now.another case is saudi arabia from where the 19 9/11 hijackers came. but saudi was a rich nation so they choose to bomb the afghans. this was what i was trying to stress.the palestinians don’t fight in the name of islam nor does the hizbollah and even israel accepts that .pakistan is paying a heavy price for the cold war policy which it effectively used on india in kashmir. yet let us not forget that the rich americans supported pakistan fully in its extremism. i hope i have made my point clear to both of u
Comment by tarique | September 28, 2008
yes muslims use extremist measures in a lot of places. i do not deny that. but what is the reason for it ??? the reason lies in the lack of a strong military presence in the muslim world to built confidence among muslims.out of the 57 muslim majority nations in the world hardly 10 nations have a small regular military. pakistan is the largest muslim military. iraq was the largest muslim military in the middle east and they destroyed it. i think after pakistan only iran remains with a small decent military force. if u totally combine the military force of all the 57 muslim nations u will find that they do not add up to even half of india’s military strenght.compare that to the west or america or india and u get the full picture.after the destruction of iraq only syria with a human population of 1 crore remains with a small military. with the collapse of the former soviet union a lot of arab nations who were close to the communists found themselves the target from america and their arab allies . and they did not have a military to defend themselves against it. this gave rise to what we call violent ‘jihad’ in the middle east today. this is not a justification to acts of terror but a fact which the whole world is turning a blind eye to.if u combine the total population of the arab world it is just around 5 or 6 crores. thats all.despite being well spread out across the globe the muslim world has no proper military presence for self defense like india or britian or america.these are some of the harsh realities the muslim world as well as the rest of the world will have to face in the times to come. the end to acts of brutal terrorism is only one - confidence building measures in the middle east and central asia where the muslims feel most insecure.with the strong rise of right wing groups in india , we too will be affected by it.we must all remember that terrorism came on our soil through punjab and kashmir in the early 80’s.after indira gandhi openly sided with the russians in the cold war , the americans made sure that pakistan got enough funds to create a sense of insecurity in india’s punjab and kashmir borders. poverty is exploited by the rich for the sake of domination. the poor don’t become terrorists coz of poverty but coz of fear of domination. world politics is all about domination and the rich have their pawns for their right moves.right wing we must say.
Comment by tarique | September 28, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
Tarique,
Good that you are seeing the geopolitical angle of it. I strongly believe that the last 100 years have seen increased islamic fundamentalism will the sole purpose of polariing Hindus and muslims. Afterall the west needs India to fight their crusades for them.
Also, if Pakistan and Agganistan had continued to be part of India, do you think the west would have been able to assualt them and destory them? Question to ponder. Seperating each part has weakened it and now detsoryed it
***
So guys, what is the solution?
I think we have to start filtering all our politicians. Can we make a list of politicians by district and tag them on a scale of 1-5 (clean to gone cases). That way we know who we are dealing with. In the next election, we can make sure that the scumbags do not win in their localities
Comment by Nishka | September 28, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
nishka , india is a very strong nation in every aspect of the world. we r not inferior to anybody in the world in any matter.we are blessed with a human population of 1100 million , have the strongest agriculture in more than 70 perecent of our lands being fertile and good for growth, and an army of more than 1 crore.population is a big strenght today for any nation and we indian who were cribbing and crying till the other day are now realising the potential of our huge population. we saw how europe , japan and the arabs are suffering with no young population at their disposal to carry on to the future. agriculture is our single biggest strenght to face any threat or calamity faced by us. our farmers are the unsung heroes and our biggest protectors after god. just imagine an agricultural economy strong enough to feed 1100 million people. what more do u want ??? if u notice the map of our blessed country closely u will find that more than 70 percent of our land is fertile. a few areas have no agriculture like kashmir or the north east and we find extremism in these areas.islamic or christian or hindu fundamentalism can cause temperory setbacks to us but are not strong enough to destroy our natural strenghts. a few bomb blasts happen all over the world today. we can draw our strenght from the fact that london city faced irish terrorism for 35 long years on a daily basis and still overcame it.we are more stronger in every aspect so jaihind. jaibharatmata. satyameva jayate.
***
mahesh do u seriouly think we muslims are pampered in this country ?? i seriously advise u to look into it in a rational manner. we muslims are the most exploited class of people in post independence india and our conditions our getting worse than the poor dalits if u have an honest eye to look into it.the common muslim is like ” nobody cares for us and we in turn care for nobody”no jobs in the government sector or public sector , very little representation in army or police, nothing done by government is concrete for he muslims to bring them into the mainstream. what commonly is seen by a section of hindu society as ‘muslim pampering’ is nothing but making a fool of backward muslim society by our corrupt political parties. if atal bihari vajpaye visits a muslim area is it compulsory for him to wear a muslim prayer cap and get photographed with a bunch of useless bearded men just to show his secular credentials ??
take a look at political iftar parties in india and i heard last week george bush organized one in the white house. what is all this for ??
just pure politics and stabbing muslims in the back after embracing them.why do we always see bearded mullahs sharing a election speech dias with our politicians in muslim areas ??they never bring forward a liberal muslim or a broad minded muslim who is clean shaven and wears trousers. why ???
and u think the shah bano verdict was muslim pampering ??? it was pure politics by indian national congress and it harmed the muslims in the long run.the government provides haj subsidies which is totally against the teachings of islam. a haj can only be be performed with honest earnings from hard work and the money cannot be borrowed. u see what u think as muslim pampering is actually weakening the muslim position.i wish sumone wrote to our government to abolish haj subsidies and use the money for bringing alienated muslims into the mainstream and confidence building measure. but this will never happen under any government. the political stakes are too high for such a risk as congress does not want to lose elections and BJP does not want to be seen by the general public as being too close to the muslims.the only good thing narendra modi did for muslims in gujrat is arranging direct flights for haj from ahmedabad airports. what is the difference here between congress and the BJP ?? TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN.
muslim pampering is nothing but lavish iftar parties , haj subsidies , allowing dirty muslim ghettoisation to increase number of votes to win an election and using muslims as scapegoats for all evils in this country. dawood ibrahim or abu salem are widely highlighted as muslims but no one highlights the indian corrupt government officials who help these dons to rise in this country. imam bukhari is not popular enough to win a small civic election in the delhi moslem ghetto where he resides and still he is called the representative of all india muslims. public memory is short but the first time imam bukhari adressed a public meeting in delhi it was from the jan sangh platform where he shared the dias with vajpayee and advani.that was during the emergency days.
Comment by tarique | September 28, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
to make one point clear that there is no concept in islam or the holy koran about jihadis going to heaven and getting 40 virgins , as being widely circulated on the internet.these and other fictitious stories are being spread by a section of tableegh jamaat leaders to attract young muslims to their fold . i used to attend it as a young boy but got disgusted after i heard two fictitious stories spread by them which will not be believed even by 2 year old kids today.the 1st story ‘ a tableeghi holy leader who they call ‘ameer sahab’ was travelling to spread islam across a river. he encountered a huge crocodile with mouth wide open. as he moved back to save himself there was a tiger waiting to pounce on him. he decided to perform his prayers. as he bowed in prayers the tiger leapt only to miss the holy ameer saheb to become food for the hungry crocodile’. they conclude after he finished his prayer he saw how even nature protects those who travel to spread islam……..2nd story ‘ a ameer and his band of faithfuls were travelling were travelling across a forest to reach a village to spread islam. they realised they had run short of food and were very hungry. they offered prayer to god and asked for relief from hunger. suddenly a horde of delicious looking deers from the forest came running towards the jamaat members and lay down gesturing to the ameer sahab to slaughter them and eat them up’
***
i came across a hindu boy who had converted to islam . i asked him the reason for his conversion. he said he was very impressed by the powers of a certain maulana. i said ”wat kind of powers he has shiv kumar ??” he replied ” well once he ran out of petrol while travelling on his scooter. unable to find a petrol pump nearby he just collected some water from the nearby pond and blessed it with muslim prayers. he then pored it in his scooter and sped off ” . believe me i had a shocking disblief on my face and told him ” i feel very pity for u shiv kumar ”. he smiled and told me flat on my face ” tarique bhai u have lack of faith in allah and u r a communist thinker ” and went away
Comment by tarique | September 28, 2008
@ Tarique bhai,
I guess maybe in hurriedly you have read my post…
So i would request you to again read my post.
I have very much highlighted my statement by saying
“All Muslims are not terrorist nor all the terrorist who are caught are Muslims but all the religious terrorist are muslims. What is the defn of religious terrorist: one who incites voilence in the name of god or the holy book…and brainwash their cadre to carry out terrorist act in the name of god!…and this is very unique only to muslim terrorist only… thats why only terrorist who are branded in the name of religion are muslim terrorist.
“I am giving an answer why term is used …nothing more to read in”
In respect of Shahbano what i have said,which you have wrongly interpreted but rightfully mentioned by you which i actually implied in my post about Congress.
thats why i mentioned that congress is another parrot which needs to be killed.
Please read carefully the below paragraph too
Further although i have not mentioned in my thread but yes Muslim community in india is very much pampered by Indian National Congress. The muslim community in india doesnot requires pampering but requires “love”…
let me explain what i am trying to say in above para..
There are two type of parents, one who pamper their kids by fulfilling every request but in long term they turn out to be spoilt brats.. (in this context Congress by pampering muslim community is giving “curse in disguise”)
while the other type of parents who love their kids and hence dont meet the request made by their kids which are bad… and scold at their kids. (in this context Hindu telling muslim .. that whatever perks you are getting under the name of secularism is just vote bank politics)
Tarique bhai actually I have a very good rappo with my muslim friends and one of my friend Rizwaan Qureshi also thinks on your lines. Well the profession in which i am .. it comprises of 95% muslim. The Ganpati in our house is lifted by Muslims. Daily i am eating evening roja food with them..
And the place where i stay i.e. Mumbai .. i dont think
after 1992 riots anyone is even interested to listen to a speech which contains polarisation of Hindu and Muslim…
जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!
Comment by Mahesh Patil | September 28, 2008
All: This is proving to be a great discussion…I had promised a response to Tarique this weekend but it is rather late now…
But I will definitely have some points to make on this tomorrow…
Thanks all for an engaging debate.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 29, 2008
Dear Shri. Tarique,
if what you are expressing is from your heart, I am hopeful of the future of India, if not please be careful as you might be marked as a Kafir and killed.
Let me assure you that I am actually supporting the views you have expressed.
I was only trying to point out that education alone will not get you anywhere, it is a sword with two faces, it can cut both ways. it can kill a person and on the other side, is the person protected. We should understand which side one is.
Education, the best; Harvard, Stanford, Berkely, Oxford, Cambridge, you name it; today after the subprime crisis it is all a bunch of nonsense. These educated persons where only a bunch of hoodlums who raped the poor and exploited the middle class for theitr own ends.
WHERE THEY REALLY EDUCATED?? That is what I am trying to highlight.
Education as you call it today is not education it is a bunch of words put together,which you are taught, after which somebody states that you have put the words together correctly and then allow you to put a bunch of letters against your name. Is that education?
I am not talking of that education which does not teach you to respect yourself, that which does not teach you to respect your fellowmen. I am talking of an education that teaches to sift the chaff from the grain, that education which teaches you not to exploit and to be exploited; That education that which teaches you that the road to success is not paved with roses, but with thorns.
I reiterate here Poverty is not an excuse for crude and gross behaviour, it is what you want to learn and what you understand after learning.
Please understand it is learning not education. One can learn any trade.
Poverty has not made the persons who sit in front of Churchgate polishing shoes terrorists. Poverty has not made the taxidriver a terorist.
It is your mindset. It is not poverty or education. They play a very minor role. YOU are responsible.
I am with you as your intentions are noble.
Let us not get exploited but stand up to the exploitation and fight it.
Let us not blame the US or any nation; Where did our BRAINS go;
Let us not shift the blame. Let us take responsibility and put our shoulders and fight it out for a better Bharat.
regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | September 29, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
my brothers mahesh and krishnan, i think all of us are thinking on the same lines, just the style of expression is different .mahesh i m still not convinced with the pampering part. as a muslim i know better what i m getting .and krishnan ur ideas are very noble about being good thinkers yet as a human being i feel that is easier said than done.”a million peer , paighambers, sants and swamis came and went , yet human society did best what suited their comforts”
***
krishnan from lanka yudh to mahabharat war to the karbala mindless killings to the crusades to kalinga war to the world wars to kargil do u think we all lived in an age of foolish thinkers ???
***
i have a small request to all my brothers. kindly don’t paint jamia nagar youngsters shot dead or arrested as terrorists till they are proved guilty by a court of law. without any religious bias i sincerely feel these youngsters were either framed or paid the price for some other small crime they may have committed as youngsters.already the autopsy reports are suggesting something ‘fishy’ took place in that encounter.wait and watch.
***
if u remember a guy named afroze in mumbai who was arrested a few months after 9/11 and was charged as being a close aide of osama bin laden. he was a training pilot and mumbai police charged him with planning suicide attacks on austraillia and london towers. it later turned out that he was framed by a rich man over a quarrel he picked up in a beer bar over a bar dancer.
Comment by tarique | September 29, 2008
Hi Tarique
Happy that you represent you pov on this forum. You quote instance of Afroze in Mumbai -
Please let me know what the Muslim community is doing to help the investigative agencies inquiring into the blasts working as they are with several leads to the SIMI. Do leaders of the community actively help in such cases?
Comment by Tatichawla | September 29, 2008
Tarique: Let me address some specific points raised in your comments over the last few days…
First of all, I broadly agree with most of what you have said…
Here are the points where I diverge or I have one or two questions of you…
1. You mention the feeling of “alienation and fear” amongst Muslims…Do you feel that the Muslim community also has to shoulder some of the blame for having failed to undergo reforms? Do you feel that at least part of the reason for Muslim under-development is the lack of education – especially female illiteracy amongst Muslims?
2. You mention that “Muslims suffered a lot due to partition regarding jobs in police, army and governance sectors….” Do you agree that this seeming under-representation in the army, government and public sector was largely due to a vast majority of existing officers having decided to leave India for Pakistan?
3. You say that “…despite being well spread out across the globe the muslim world has no proper military presence for self defense like india or britian or america….”
This is (I feel) a very dangerous argument to make…Are you saying that Muslims all over the world are actually one single “nation” and hence need a military?
I have often read (and I am sure you have too) that Islam encourages trans-national loyalties…Isn’t this kind of logic a symptom of that?
India’s size of military is dictated by our environment – which is very unstable and largely hostile..You may know that many countries that share boundaries with come under the category of “failed states”.
This is the reason for India’s military strength and posture…and I don’t need to remind you that Indian army is NOT a Hindu army…
4. Separately, I don’t agree with you that agriculture is the solution to India’s development…The solution is (in my opinion) rapidly building a large and sustainable manufacturing base and creating opportunities in the services sector (which can only happen if we introduce large-scale reforms in education and public health).
India’s strength is its people…But an underfed, malnourished, unhealthy and unskilled population is NOT an asset…it is a liability. And we must face up to that.
5. Finally, I would love to read your comments on these two posts: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/03/12/darul-uloom-war-on-islamism/ AND http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/08/01/tackling-terrorism/
6. By the way, Tarique, you should consider joining one of the many new political parties that are being formed…We already have Mahesh here who is with BPD, Geeta who is with PPI and Sanjeev Sabhlok who started FTI…
Please consider joining one or more of these groups…here is the link: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/05/22/lets-come-together-to-build-a-new-and-proud-india/
See also: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/01/politics-nuts-and-blots/
Look forward to your thoughts.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 29, 2008
Friends we all agree that this India is not what we all wanted or dream of ever. Present Indian situation is not were we want our children to grow and see the world. Let’s keep aside all our ego, beliefs, intelligence, past experience and information. Let’s see the practical situation. All Indian population which includes Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian is victim of exploitation. No matter what religion one follow one way or other they got exploited.
Hindus feel there is no job for us as quota is there for others, other community is getting more then what we are, this is Hindustan but Hindus are poor here, govt. only listens to other community.
Muslim think there is no education for us. Indian people don’t respect our belief. This is not our country. We are not getting good things of life here. There is discrimination to us because we are less in number then Hindus.
Sikh thinks there should be separate country for us. Others are not giving what we deserve fully.
Christen think nobody is doing anything for us. We are very small in number so we should be pamper more. Our religion is above others and betters then others.
Can anyone tell me what is common in all four thinking or say our thinking. We are only thinking about ourselves and only our religion. We are not sad because we are not getting something, but because we feel others are getting it. But the truth is others are suffering equally. We all are suffering and fighting among ourselves. We are abusing each other and killing each other. We never try to solve this problem; instead we add fuel to fire from our side. We all know what happened in past. There is no point is remembering it. If someone made mistake in past it is not necessary we continue to repeat it. We should learn from past and rectify the wrong decision or step taken by them. Past is always there to guide not for fight. What is passed is passed, no matter how much u try u can’t bring it back. We should accept this fact and work for future.
Politicians are a very smart breed of human. It is not easy to be a politician. One has to kill his will, emotions, and in return u has to be cunning like fox. No matter what happen to society one should only think about his benefit. Politics says u should rule by every mean, by hook or crook. Shaam(by mutually), daam(by money), dand(by punishment), bhead(by blackmail) are real principal of politics. So what politicians are doing?
They are spreading poison of religion difference among every society; they are dividing every Indian by telling that you are superior then other. We are with you go ahead. We the innocent people don’t understand there web and fall into it either for emotional issue or for personal benefit or for religious issue or in name of country or many other name. this all are just different ways of dividing people. No political party or politicians are enemy. They just pretend to be enemy or competitor, but in back door picture they all are part of one family. How many times we see one parties MP or MLA join other party. Many muslim hard liner attending BJP ,RSS tea party. BJP leaders dining with muslim or other parties leader. So this is just to make fool off public. And they are enjoying the fruit of power in return. Many small parties or leader who really think and work for public, hardly comes in limelight, because we only want to see big people. Media plays a very big role in this too. Name any institution or agency this poison is everywhere. Media only wanna show what gives them money or help them to get higher TRPs. We never thought what is the situation of arushi’s parents, but we all was interested in knowing who killed her. Media don’t cover or make it national news that daily many children dies because of starvation in India. Media don’t cover china’s influence on states Manipur, Assam, nagaland. Because we never want to see what is happeing there. Politician also wants media to show this false picture of rising India or booming India so they can get more and more loan from World Bank.
Friends what I wanna say here is until we the Indian public, we the so called smart, educated, urban, patriotic, open minded people really don’t come together nothing is gona change. There are always gona differences but we have to overcome those if we really want to do some good to ourselves and society. It is easy to say others to change, but is very difficult to change our self. If we can really learn how to love each other and respect each others feeling we can do what we want to do.
Comment by tarun garg | September 29, 2008
Dear Shri. Tarique,
Let me assure you that all citizens of Bharat are not interested in TRP’s and recogonition. All of us are interested in this Bharat and Bharat alone.
True “Bharatiyas” have not run away throwing away their responsibilities of building a greater Bharat, and set up residences all over the world and now talk of building a new India.
No true Bharatiya will ever consider another Bharatiys a criminal unless he is proved so in a court of Law. All true Bharatiys believe in truth and fairness; not in some illogical Human Rights and such hogwash.
It is fair for every Bhatiya to expect another true Bharatiya to extend his assistance in reaching out to this truth, be he of any way of life.
It is the need of the air for all true Bharatiyas to come forward and establish the truth of terrorism or its untruth, whatever it may be, and take the result in the right spirit.
Let us not bash each other by calling our beliefs, names or any derogatory terms. If I am a sinner and is supposed to go to purgatory, LEAVE ME ALONE.
If each one has his space and respects the space of another, nobody can exploit another.
Let us work together to get rid of our poisonous past and make a new beggining.
Wars are fought not because of thinkers. It is because nobody understands and respects the thinker.
In the Mahabharat nobody listened to Bhishma and Krishna. In the Ramayana, it is greed ansd nothing else.
Thinkers will not make any difference as long as we play low with the other person.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | September 29, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
shantanu i feel u have not properly understood some of the points i was discussing in a rational manner without any religious bias.and i think i can clear a lot of doubts on what i have posted. as a muslim who has lived in a crowded muslim ghetto all his life i know a lot of things from close quarters better than what u read in newspapers.u say i cited afroze as a defense , infact i presented him as a irresponsible educated muslim youth. the SIMI for ur information has no following among common muslims and u can conduct an independent survey on it.a lot of former SIMI member are mostly unemployed youths , a few of them police informers now , a few petty criminals . SIMI was formerly the jamaat e islami . after the demolition of babri mosque the government put a ban on rss and jamaat e islami both. then it assumed the SIMI cover. the SIMI members are mostly followers of the ahle hadeeth sect who hardly constitute 2 percent of muslims. they are disliked by a majority of indian muslims for their rigid stance on religion.as a common muslim residing in a muslim ghetto it is a very difficult task to pinpoint criminals to the police. most criminals here are highly connected and have a good understanding with the top ’sahebs’ or cops. shantanu u may not agree with me but u have to be born a muslim in a ghetto to feel it.i advise u to do a survey of reay road in mumbai which has a large number of illegal bangladeshi migrants. they have polluted the place completely with dirty slums, squat on the roads, deal in narcotics openly, prostitution, theft etc etc. yet shantanu i challenge u to get these people booked in prison for life according to indian laws in narcotics . forget a common poerless muslim here , even a crusading upright hindu has tried and failed here . why ?? i m using hindu or muslim here and not indian here only because i was asked ‘wat is a common muslim doing to prevent crimes in his own community’.the police here has shown the bangla illegal migrants the loopholes in the system to acquire a ration card.the most shocking part now….a bangladeshi thief was not feeling well and could not go out to his work for a few days. a police van arrives to his slum , he is dragged out and mercilessly beaten up by the cops and branded a ‘kaamchor’. i was witness to a sight where i saw cops covering their own faces with a plastic raincoat ,push the overloaded handcart of a thief in reay road. we all know and have seen the rise of underworld elements. they exist in both hindu and muslim areas. yet both common hindu and muslims helplessly watch them and can do nothing. dawood ibrahim or SIMI are not the common closely family knit simple people . they are a part of a highly corrupt political system. they are not a religion they are active members of a secular ‘indian corupption organization’.the explosive used in the mumbai blasts were cleared by five customs officials who accepted ten times more bribe after they discovered it was RDX. LIKE COMMON SUFFERING HINDUS WE COMMON MUSLIMS ARE SUFFERING TOO.shantanu u must remember that the sara sahara complex where prime municipal land was leased for a pittance to the dawood ibrahim family was signed during the shiv sena regime when the family was charged with ‘war against the nation’shantanu, wat did u do to stop that deal ???
***
alienation and fear is nothing new in human society. if u remember i looked at it from a human angle and not from a religious angle.i cited examples of blacks in america, east europeans, arabs within arab societies, and the fear and alienation of pashtuns and baluchis in muslim pakistan from sindhis and punjabis.mostly lack of education is most among muslims in north india as it suffered the most during partition especially UP’s and biharis. mother india has very few problems with south indian muslims.women illiteracy is a very big issue to be addressed and exists a lot in muslims and tribal hindu women too.the problem today we face is that women get exploited in all fields whether in modest ‘burkha’ or the high fashion world of ‘bikini’. but the bikini is more glamorous and perfumes and the black burkha is smelly and dirty for ridicule.the ‘veil’ in muslims is a symbol of modesty yet it was manipulated as a symbol of slavery by clerics. despite all this pakistan produced benazir bhutto, bangladesh gave khalida zia or shiekh hasina and dubai has more female members in government today.women all over the world will continue to get exploited yet come out with honour intact. after all a woman is a MOTHER.
***
shantanu , there is nothing sinister to see about my grave concern about a strong military presence in the muslim world.i do not see it as a threat to the world but as a confidence building excercise among weaker sections of muslim nations. i never see muslims as one nation as u think. even the united nations in many cases replaced european soldiers with muslim soldiers as peacekeepers in muslim areas of conflict. it helped the locals overcome fear .and the united nations are far better equipped to think than me.today ,in india they are talking to increase the number of muslim officers to watch over the ghettos.why ??he will get a better inside view and will be able to convince the common muslims about siding with the law.
***
trans national loyalties as most of us think has nothing to do loyalties to one’s nation. it is mostly found among religious groups. for example , i saw a big concern among hindus for a hindu temple being demolished in russia. same was the case when hindus face some trouble in other nations. america did not give visa to narendra modi after there were attacks on churches in gujarat.muslims too like all others feel for their co-religionists . i don’t think so too much should be read into it
***
shantanu, to conclude i m a proud indian, proud of my large powerful army, proud of my sacrificing poor farmers who toil against all odds , proud of our indian culture which promotes great family values.shantanu, please don’t make the mistake of underestimating our agricultural sector. it is our biggest guarantee to survive as a nation.don’t blindly try to ape the chinese reforms in the industrial sector. i have visited china two times and can tell it is agriculture that has kept chinese society intact there too and the industrial sector has a long way to go before they can break even with the very high amount of world bank loans thet have acquired.talking about industrial style of development u must know it has its risks. it involves too much borrowing and taking dictations from large banks how u should spend ur borrowed money. take the example of the american crisis today. the industrial and growth sector there borrowed very heavily and promised heaven for the investors. what happened ??? they ended even eating up the money of many middle class american citizens.so let us first secure our agricultural strenghts tight before we move forward. jaihind. jaibharatmata. satyameva jayate.
Comment by tarique | September 30, 2008
I am very worried about what is happening in India. I think what we are seeing at play is a multitude of geopolitical forces who are vying for control in India. The country is being split wide open for a second and more complete takeover
Comment by Nishka | September 30, 2008
true, india’s strenght are its people . do u know after our agricultural sector our 2nd largest GDP are our skilled and unskilled labour strenght. our indian overseas labour force and technicians earn and send back home more money than what our industries like reliance, tata or birla create in india with all help from government sector. shantanu , r u listening ???
***
starting a political party is no solution to our problems. at best we can create awareness amongst our own and those who care to listen to us. indian politics in times to comes will require more funding than an american election. a time will come in indian politics where multinationals companies will pump in huge money to get their choice in. as a bunch of upright young men you stand just no chance to survive here. the clean up process will take another 100 years if we start from today. the starting point is to start explaining things to those who have time to listen to u.
Comment by tarique | September 30, 2008
The fact cannot be denied that innocent muslim youths can be victim of unfair treatment by our police. Remember, in the early days of Punjab insurgency the sole reason of anger of the Sikh youth was police brutallity.
Comment by Jagmohan Singh Khurmi | September 30, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
jagmohan i was in school in 1984 and was a witness to sikhs being teased and taunted in school,and called ‘terrorists’ when indira gandhi was assasinated. my friends harpreet and gurpreet would almost be into tears.
***
i advise a lot of people to read the excellent short stories by one of india’s greatest short story writers mr. saadat hasan manto. his stories were mostly written in pre independence india and during the days of partition. u will notice what he wrote during that time are as relevent today as when he wrote them.his stories were all written in urdu language and translated in english in a book called ‘mottled dawn’. read it as it says a lot .saadat hasan maanto was truly one among us. he inspires me to write though i am a college dropout . his writings could have a great positive influence on u too.
Comment by tarique | September 30, 2008
Its important to be sensitive and have empathy - and we also need to look for solutions to the violence and hatred emanating out of religion that is threatening our democracy. In the absence of Secular Democracy we can forget India - there will only be chaos and barbarism or medieval religious backwardness - what does not evolve dissolves
So what do we do to re-establish secular democracy?
Comment by Tatichawla | September 30, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
Tarun, vck, Nishka, Jagmohan, Tatichawla and Tarique…thanks for continuing the discussion..
I will add my thoughts at some point later today.
Meanwhile, one request: If you could combine your comments on a single post in one, it helps the flow of the discussion and ease of reading.
Thanks.
***
@ Tarique: As you have mentioned, the “highly corrupt political system” is probably the single biggest factor that could change things.
That was what prompted my suggestion to you to consider joining a political party…we must take responsibility for the mess we find ourselves in
As for your comments on agriculture, can I request you to join the discussion here: http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/18/right-left-economic-policy/
***
@ All: In the end, the solution to most of the problems and challenges that we are discussing here must come through change in policies and governance…and I see no other option than getting actively involved in politics…
Writing about these things can only catalyse the change…it is unlikely to precipitate it.
More on this later.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 30, 2008
Today i.e. 30th Sept 2008
I received a phone call at 12.30am from one of my office workers, that a riot has broken out in their area, which is called as Rabodi, in Thane city. It is an area on Majority Muslim population… I immediately rushed to the place
The riot started over Dassera Pandal issue … which was burnt down and further the riot inflated into a huge scale by explosion of gas cylinders burning of vehicles and burning of houses of both hindus and muslim.
Finaly a point was reached at two hours of waiting at 2.30am i asked my office workers families(all muslims) to vacate the area and come along with me to our office premisis, as we ourselves and the police were under attack from the voilent mob. Luckily myself and others with just minor bruses escaped..
The area is still tensed, with two military units and 1 company of Rapid action force deployed..and a large police force a curfew is in place.
After 1992 riots this,today was my closest encounter .. or even worse ones.. after seeing with own eyes how the people were running helter skelter and groups of 20s attacking randomly and burning.. sent shiver into my spines..
I cant even define.. how the small kids are bearing with this truama who were along with us.
I would invite all the bloggers to once enter a hindu muslim riot area.. you would understand and before typing anything against any religion.. you would think ten times!
I hope the matter cools down by tommorow and truely wish my employees Eid Mubarak
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2008/sep/300908-Thane-riots-Navratri-mandap-Rabodi-area.htm
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Riots_in_Thane_over_Navratri_pandal/rssarticleshow/3542334.cms
जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!
Comment by Mahesh Patil | September 30, 2008
Mr Tarique, Islam did not enter India through peaceful means as claimed by you. Soon after conquering Sindh, the Arab conqueror/terrorist Mohammad bin Qasim asked the people either to accept Islam or get killed. This is History. Though there is no provision in Islam to allow Hindus to retain their faith, (only Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians were permitted as Mohammed believed only those people had holy books) Qasim allowed Hindus to follow their faith in lieu of payment of Jaziya for practical reasons. All the turk rulers of Afghanistan, beginning from Mahmud of Ghazni to Mohammad of Ghori attacked, killed, raped and enslaved Hindus and destroyed their temples in the name of jihad. After smashing the idol at Somanath, Mahmud sent a piece of the idol to be placed on the passage of the chief mosque at Ghazni to be trotted upon by believers. If this act was not permitted by Islam, why did not the Calipha admonished Mahmud? Mr Tarique please go the website http://www.faithfreedom.org/ maintained by Ali Sina, who has studied the Koran, Hadis and all scripture of Islam to know all about Islam. He provides evidence to what ever he says.
Comment by Srinivas | October 1, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
srinivas mohamed bin qasim invaded the hindu king of sindh by going against the orders of the caliphate.he was recalled and tried in the caliphate court and finally beheaded. after the bloody partition of india and pakistan , mohamed bin qasim was presented by muslim fundamentalist as a true warrior of islam. they hid the truth of what happened to him after the invasion. mahmud of ghazni was not a member of the islamic caliphate. he was from the turk mongol ancestory of invaders and during his time the islamic caliphate had lost almost all its influence and had descended into chaos. the turk mongol invaders were associated with loot, rape and plunder from very old days in history. attila the hun invader was one of them and he ravaged europe even when islam was not born.changhez khan and halaku khan were from the shamaist sect of buddhism and are known for their bloody invasions. buddhism is a very peaceful religion. it shows the mongol invaders invaded for bread and butter no matter what religion they followed in any time in history.mahmud ghazni, taimur ghori all belonged to the mongol ancestory and not to the islamic caliphate.
***
srinivas islam came to india through kerala by very peaceful means during the lifetime of prophet mohamed and not through the seventeen year old qasim as we r told to spread hate and anger among religions.
***
mohamed bin qasim was punished for invading the peaceful hindu king of sindh is a fact no matter how many different versions a section of politically motivated muslims try to present of the causes of his death.
***
bloody invasions all over the world had nothing to do with any religion in the world. they existed even before islamic religion was born.invasions was a means of bread and butter for landlocked tribes, in some cases as a means of power and domination and in many cases about controlling the trade route of the olden days.
***
if mongol turk invasion was about spreading islam in india can u show me a single mosque in india built by mahmud or ghori or taimur.the mongols or mughals ruled india for more than 650 years. show me atleast 65 mosques built by them during their reign in india ???sometimes a lot of hue and cry is made by liars and people start believing it as a gospel truth.
***
my deepest condolence to mahesh for what he had to go through because of the actions of a few misguided muslim youths. mahesh ur positive thoughts even in such times inspires me to give all love and respect to the majority peace loving hindu brothers. mahesh i salute u and promise u that if need be i will lay down my life to protect a hindu in trouble.
Comment by tarique | October 1, 2008
Mohammed bin Qasim was executed by the calipha as the daughters of Dahir captured by Qasim to be sent to the harem of the calipha told the calipha that Qasim had deflowered them. The calipha was angry as Qasim had raped these young girls meant for him. For your information during the time of Mohammad the founder of Islam, only the whole of present day Saudi Arabia was forcibly converted and only during the time of calipha Omar and Othman the neigbhouring countries like Syria, Iraq and Persia was captured and Islam was forced upon the people. hence we find the Zorostrianins coming to India to escape religious prosecution.
Mr. Tarique I can understand your plight. Every one knows how Islam treat its women folks, killing animals in the name of sacrifice, killing if people want to leave Islam and daily repeating five times in your prayer that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah. (does this not indicate that the gods worshiped by hindus and christians are false)Thanks to internet and Q channel no more bluffing by people like you that Islam is a peaceful religion will carry weight. The mullahs of Pakistan are scholars in Islamic law and know better about Islam than any one else. Probably you feel embrassed by the way Muslim behave and try to defend it. The problem is not with Muslims but with Islam. Once again I repeat, to visit http:/www.faithfreedom.org to know about the true nature of Islam .
Comment by Srinivas | October 2, 2008
Tarique and Srinivas: Thanks for continuing the discussion.
***
@ Tarique: Just a couple of points re. your comments.
1. In your comment directed to Srinivas, you may be inadvertently confusing race (Mongols) with faith (Islam). I felt that Srinivas’ main point was the destruction and the havoc wrought by invaders in the name of Islam in India…not so much whether they were Mongols or belonged to the Caliphate. And not even about whether the true motive was religious (as in the sense of crusades) or socio-political (as you have mentioned).
2. Secondly, I would be very grateful for any links/references to Islam in Kerala during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammed (presume this was something more than a few Arab traders coming and settling in Malabar).
Thanks.
Let me close by wishing you and your loved ones Eid Mubarak!
Comment by B Shantanu | October 2, 2008
shantanu i m not confusing anything. and which invaders are u talking about who did wrong things in the name of islam.the mughals ???shantanu don’t forget that 80 percent of the mughal army were proud hindu rajputs and the mughal success in india was mostly because of them. and did the caliphate or muslim invaders invade kerala or tamil nadu ?? how did islam spread there ???spreading false and hateful stories is a passion with some people and they know they are harming themselves by believing in their own propoganda. even i can find humilating faults with other religions regarding treatment of women, animal sacrifice
and their modes of worship. but i m not here at all for that purpose. i came here to bridge misunderstandings among the hindu and muslim faith .to bridge the gap of hate to that of love and respect.islam needs no advocate and has survived and grown for 1400 years.i dont need to learn my islam from any q channel or any pakistani. i m mature enough to know if islam is good or bad for me. i m a proud muslim and proud of my islamic faith no matter how much propaganda u unleash on us.i asked if any ghori, timur, or mahmud ghazni built a mosque in india to spread islam. no answer .they say islam was forced on the people of arabia.if that was true why did the forced converts not leave the fold of islam when the caliphate collapsed. according to srinivas all muslims in the world are forced converts. if that was true how come today when muslim power is at its lowest ebb, people are still sticking to islam.islam is growing at a fast face around the globe despite grave charges on us.the first mosque in india was built in kerala by a hindu king who converted to islam.the cheraman juma masjid is the first mosque built in india at around 629 a.d.see the cheraman juma masjid on youtube also
Comment by tarique | October 2, 2008
@ Tarique: We were talking about Mongols and the invading Turks, not Mughals. Not sure if their (i.e. invading Mongols, Turks) armies were predominantly Hindu Rajputs (or converted Hindu Rajputs) or someone else.
Anyway, this is not the right thread to discuss this.
I note that you are here to “bridge misunderstandings among the Hindu and Muslim faith…to bridge the gap of hate to that of love and respect.”
I welcome that with open arms.
Let us work together to build a proud India.
Jai Hind!
Comment by B Shantanu | October 2, 2008
Tarique says that he needs not learn about Islam from Q tv but does not hesitate to use the news from The Pakistani Spectator to speak about a mosque which as the news itself tell was build upon a temple and hence faces east. http://www.pakspectator.com/second-oldest-mosque-in-the-world/. As all so called peace loving, secular muslims Mr Tarique does not have answers for
1. Why your daily prayer has the sentence “There is no god worthy of worship except Allah” Will not this hurt non Muslims?
2. Why apostasy in Islam is punishable with death? Only members leaving an underworld gang face this threat.
3.Normally people cover their private parts. By insisting muslim women to cover from head to toe, will it not convey a meaning that Muslim men consider the whole body of their as women as a private part?
As regard to Mohammad Ghori constructing a mosque visit the mosque near Qutb Minar called Quwat ul Islam mosque, meaning victory to Islam built by Qutub ud din Aibak, the commander of Mohammad Ghori by destroying a temple there soon after he captured Delhi.
It is the threat of death as I have mentioned which prevents Muslims from leaving Islam and nothing else. True colours of so called peace loving and secular muslims can be known only when they are in majority.
Comment by Srinivas | October 2, 2008
Dear Sir,
The whole subject is becoming curiouser and curiouser. I think history has been so distorted by the “Educationsts” that I am unable to distinguish the truth from fiction.
Unless we have a genuine “History” of the invasions and not the “Whiteman edited and discordant one” many of the truths will create destuctive mentalities in the eyes of the people of the world.
A few topics would amplify my problem. Let us take the concept of the “Aryan Invasion”.
History has been distorted for more than a century, and even today it is being discussed and people are wondering today whether that took place at all. They are also questioning the motive for this distortion of history. Is it for the purpose of conversion or was it unleashed to keep the natives busy sorting out the Dravidian vs Aryan problem while it was systematically being raped?
We have heard abouth the bravery of the western “Cowboys”? Is it really true or is it fiction? Was Custers last stand true or was it made melodramtic for public appreciation? Was he a mass murderer of American natives or was his role shown different for another cover up.
In view of the untruth of the matter of “weapons of mass destruction” I have my doubts whether the “English Historians” really gave out the truth or prepared “Fanciful documents” for our consumption and their own greatness!
Let us for a start take the bull by the horns. No religion involved, just history by itself. Let us call the bluff as to the question “Was the Taj Mahal a Hindu temple”.
I think enlightened persons like Shri. Tarique , who has played a great part in attempting to get history in a different perspective ” Qaim was executed for invading the peaceful Hindu Kingdom in Gujarat” - this a new perspective, Is this true? If it is thru documented sources and available encryptions, let us take a call also on various subjects.
We need a strong Bharat. Let us try to make a change in getting history right.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | October 2, 2008
Thanks tarique on your kind words. Well nothing to feel sorry about, it is just coward fanatics from both the sides using religion as a blanket cover to incite to voilence and which resulted in endangering innocent people of both the religion.
***************************
I am just dazzled that all the bloggers are so good in their history… how do you get so much of time to read and mugg up his much stuff??? … “गडे मुर्दे क्यों उखाड़ रहे हो ? “ who cares who invaded what centuries back.. Its now that matters.
Just because some books and some people have written something about some fanatics , it doesnt becomes binding to follow it and play it like a auto play tape..
I am writing on the blog from past year and half.. but still i am not able to find one person who has experienced anything first hand and writing his/her opinion based on that experience…
A bomb blast:… we condemn we condemn..n abuses against UPA or NDA
On Kandhamal:… talk against christain minorities .. and be double standards by using christain services in form of schools and hospitals
Jamai Nagar: : talk against islam and all talk about past…
Kashmir: talk about kashmir.. without ever even been there…
Half off you dont even use your original names on the blog.. as if a Gay person hiding his sexual preference from the whole world.
Dont be brainwashed by some writing(history),a book, a tv channel or a persons speeches.. Build your opinion on personal expereinces.. not second hand…
I wonder how many of you will openly sit in a press conference and talk about any of the issues discussed over here or in any public domain or lead an actual issue with real people!.
Anyways the reason i am frustrated is not because none of the bloggers have ever seen R of riot or expereinced T of terrorist upclose, but none of you intellects have a concrete answers to the present problems or no concrete output at the end of the debate on any of the thread on the blog….which could help not so textbook intelluctual politician like myself could learn and voice out in public
We are just like a crowd in barber shop..
जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!
Comment by Mahesh Patil | October 3, 2008
@ Mahesh: I am compelled to respond on behalf of the silent majority here..
You are making sweeping generalisations and - if I can say so - being slightly presumptuous in your assumptions…
I will say no more at this point…
As for having practical suggestions/ concrete output, did you read the post on “Tackling Terrorism: One Step at a Time”?
P.S. At some point, I would love to sit in a press conference and talk about these issues in public…and hopefully that time will come soon…
More later.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 3, 2008
Mahesh: Allow me to address your comment # 43 in a little more detail (and here I am speaking mostly for myself).
But am just dazzled that all the bloggers are so good in their history… how do you get so much of time to read and mugg up his much stuff??? …
Mahesh, for me, history is first of all, a passion. Second, we ignore history at our own peril. History is a great way to understand what went wrong and how we can avoid some mistakes (of course the past is not always a perfect guide to the future)…Thirdly, our history (that is the history that I learnt in school), I now realise – is to a large extent based on presumptions, misconceptions and distortions that have never been fully addressed. I see this effort as a way of educating myself afresh.
I am writing on the blog from past year and half.. but still i am not able to find one person who has experienced anything first hand and writing his/her opinion based on that experience…
Here you are way off the mark…I personally know a few readers here who have been through a riot and terrorist attacks…they may not share their experiences – either because they do not wish to…or what they feel has largely been expressed already…
I don’t wish to talk too much about myself at this stage…but a large part of what I write, is based on personal experience, observation and conversations with people who know what they are talking about…enough said on this for now.
On Kandhamal:… talk against christain minorities ..
I don’t know why you felt that we were talking against Christian minorities…I have nothing against Christians or Muslims or Zorastrians…They are all part of Bharat and deserve a place in this society…What I am against is aggressive proselytization techniques…
Jamia Nagar: Was not about Islam at all…It was about vote-bank politics, breakdown in law and order etc.
Kashmir: talk about kashmir.. without ever even been there…
What makes you say that?! Pl. read this
Half off you dont even use your original names on the blog.. as if a Gay person hiding his sexual preference from the whole world.
Does that matter? I don’t agree with the “gay person” analogy.
Build your opinion on personal expereinces.. not second hand…
True to an extent…but not all opinions can be based on first-hand experience. If that was true, a lot of us will not be able to comment on the banking crisis in the US, for example!
I wonder how many of you will openly sit in a press conference and talk about any of the issues discussed over here or in any public domain or lead an actual issue with real people!.
I addressed this in my earlier comment…but to reiterate…”At some point, I would love to sit in a press conference and talk about these issues in public…and hopefully that time will come soon…”
Anyways the reason i am frustrated is not because none of the bloggers have ever seen R of riot or expereinced T of terrorist upclose, but none of you intellects have a concrete answers to the present problems or no concrete output at the end of the debate on any of the thread on the blog….which could help not so textbook intelluctual politician like myself could learn and voice out in public
I mentioned earlier about the post on “Tackling Terrorism” – which you can (and should) voice out in public as steps to counter this growing threat.
But I feel you are missing an important (and bigger) point here Mahesh. Politics is not merely action. It is also thought, theory, ideology and principles.
Without some underlying ideology, principles or guiding philosophy, you may well become a politician but you will struggle when dealing with issues that present a choice or issues that need you to take a certain action/decision.
In the absence of such guiding principles, how will you decide which option to choose? which course to take? what would strengthen the values you cherish? and what would bring you closer to your ideal society and the country that you really dream about?
To conclude, intellectual discussion has its place – as has work on the ground…I know you are doing a lot of the latter…and I hope this blog can help you at least a little bit in the former.
Jai Hind!
Comment by B Shantanu | October 4, 2008
Hi to All
I had been posting comments on this blog,… if I am not wrong since 2005. I have always enjoyed this blog and see high calibre of this blog as well as of Shantanu. If tomorrow he comes up with any ground work I will trust him over other politicians in the matter of national issues. He is one of the few who cares for the country and is very concerned about it. I salute him!
Readers comes on the blogs because they are screaming they want some one to hear their voice, they feel the same way as what blogger is posting. Where they can share the similar thoughts. where they can raise the voice together. Because they have gone through the hell.
I dont think those who have personally not seen or experienced will be bothered reading and commenting on the blog.
And for the comments of Mahesh, on riots and terrorists. When the time comes politician too becomes rioters and terrorists. Did not MNS of maharastra become rioters?. Did not Mr. Patil supported them by “Aamchi Mumbai and Aamchi manus” slogan?. Where was his feelings? Are this politicians are building India or dividing India? Is this kind of leaders are we raising and supporting?
When the time comes they serve their interests.
Readers, bloggers and historians are better than this politicians. One of my mission in life is breaking vicious circle of politicians. They have to purify to serve the nation or else they are just playing with the people of India and the public of maharastra.
Jai Hind!
Comment by Indian | October 4, 2008
shantanu u r again getting confused with my reference to turk mongol invaders and mughals. all are the same tribes and ancestories. the turk mongol invaders in central asia were known as ‘tatars’ and even in persia. in india they were called mughals. in arabia they were called ’seljuk’.to the accusation that early invasions of the caliphate from saudi arabia to syria to iraq was done with the sole purpose to spread islamic religion is one sided and biased.there were many reasons for the caliphate army to invade syria and iraq and persia. one was the strong influence of byzantine imperialists who had enslaved the arabian peninsula for years. secondly , the seljuk turks would always loot on the trade routes. most of these ruthless invaders constantly caused great trouble to the growth of the arab region and its people.the persian empire or the sassanid empire was always a threat to the arab region with its strong army always at its doorstep and issuing threats. these invasions were geopolitical in nature to the survival of an arab state with strong stakes in the world trade during that time. i think history should be seen only from geopolitical angles and through socio economic reasonings. if u look closely look and study most invading armies u will find they caused maximum damage to people of their own religion and faith . babur did not invade india to kill hindus and spread islam. he invaded india to dethrone the shahs and lodhis in delhi who were muslims too.same way if u study the history of invaders in many other regions around the world u will find the maximum they killed or looted were people of their own religion and faith.i never look at history from the religious angle because it provides me with no logics or proper answers to my doubts.
Comment by tarique | October 4, 2008
if u study the history of mongols , u will find there are christian, muslim, buddhists, persian mughal invaders who strethced from the steppes of mongolia to central asia to the persian empires to the nations in eastern europe. a lot of hordes of people of every religion suffered at their hands.
Comment by tarique | October 4, 2008
srinivas i feel sad u have ur mind filled with hate just because u r inspired by stories or history told in a way to create hate among religions.
to ur 1st query ‘there is no god except allah’. allah is a universal god of all humanity whom u call ‘ishwar’ ‘bhagwan’ ‘daata’. u r falling into the trap of a small section of muslim fundamentalists by raising this question. remember the great shivaji maharaj after carefully studying the holy koran put the mughals to shame by quoting from the koran that ishwar was ‘rabbulallameen-meaning lord of the entire universe’ and not ‘rabbul muslimeen’ meaning lord of the muslims.i need not say more as shivaji maharaj answered that query for me. a lot of muslim fundamentalists try to present shivaji maharaj in a poor light , yet it is a historical fact that shivaji maharaj had very high regards for islam.
to ur second query about ‘apostasy’ show me a person punished for it in recent times.
as far as covering women women from head to toe , it was initially a gesture for empowerment of women and not slavery.a ‘veil stood for modesty and respect for women along with a share of parental property rights granted in islam. compare that to the pornography sites on the internet today mostly from europe and other nations. what do u find more insulting to women ?? u must remember that before the advent of islam women in arabia were buried alive and their private parts mutilated to show they were devil’s creation. if islam veiled them it meant empowering them in the deserts where their lives were not safe. hindu fundamentalist propoganda always tries to show any muslim ruler as one trying only to spread his religion without any ethics and mostly end up with egg on their face.
u proudly show the world the ‘qutub minar’ whose foundation stone was laid by qutbuddin aibak as a architectural masterpiece to attract tourists in delhi and on the other hand u accuse the same person of destroying a hindu temple to built a mosque on it. why ?? why glorify the qutub minar as a tourist attraction in the first place ?? u say the muslims are scared to leave islam scared of a death threath. is that true ?? islam is the fastest growing religion today in america and europe .
rearding muslims showing their true colours when in a majority then tell me what kind of threat do u face from indonesia,the most populous muslim nation in the world. out of the 57 muslim majority nations in the world today only saudi arabia follows islamic laws today and that too only in parts. the other muslim nations follow socialist, communist, democratic, and even military dictatorship like most parts of the world today.
Comment by tarique | October 4, 2008
@ Tarique…You have a point…and I was wrong about the distinction between Turk/Mongols and Mughals…
Thanks for setting the record straight…
One lives and learns…
I welcome your thoughts on other aspects of our history too..
In particular, the controversy around Taj Mahal…What do you think about that? (Have a look at this post )
P.S. I am wondering whether it may be better to carry this discussion on a separate thread.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 4, 2008
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
tarique: I have moved your comment here since it is the more appropriate thread for discussing Taj Mahal.
Comment by tarique | October 5, 2008
from jaipur blasts to delhi blasts to bangalore to the jamia encounters and major arrest of young students as terrorist to the anti christian riots across the country. what is going on ???it has spread to thane and dhule in maharashtra and is threathening assam and furthur systematically spread to the entire nation. who is behind all this ??? there is a method to this madness.in may 2009 we are due for general elections and in november this year 4 states go for assembly polls namely rajasthan, madhya pradesh, chattisgarh and delhi.if u take a close look u will notice that in all these 4 states there is a straight fight between congress and BJP.the results of these 4 states will decide which way the general public will be voting in may 2009 elections. if u notice the vote bank in these 4 states u will find that that there is hardly even 10 perecent average minority votes in these states.it is an all out contest for the majority hindu votes. minority votes will hardly have any great impact in all these 4 states.the BJP sees this as a great opportunity to strike back to power on the hindutva wave and majority hindu votes. but here lies a great problem for the BJP. it was already in power in rajasthan , MP, and chattisgarh which had more than 90 percent hindus. despite pro hindutva sloganeering they provided a failed administeration in these 3 states. it is no secret that rajastan . MP, AND CHATTISGARH have been big failures on the governance front by BJP.SO WHAT DOES THE BJP DO TO TURN THE TIDE ??? unleash a nationwide propaganda on muslim terrorism and conversions as they have nothing to lose, and if their formula suucceeds they could be in delhi in may 2009.this can be closely seen by the activities of VHP and bajrang dal in riot affected areas . their modus operandi ‘ after a riot breaks out and hindus and muslims who have been living together for years in the same area for years turn enemies over a small fight.when the police arrives a few policemen get injured or even killed. the injured policeman or the killed one comes as a blessing in disguise for VHP OR BAJRANG DAL to spread their hate agenda. they start on a door to door donation drive for the deceased or injured policeman and all along spreading rumours on common peace loving hindus how a muslim mob is on its way to murder and rape hindus. they assure the mostly peace loving hindus ‘don’t worry we will die for u and fight these evil muslims but do donate generously for the dead policeman who was a hindu too’. this propaganda is used to convince common peace loving hindus that an armed policeman is not safe in this country then what will happen to u ?? suddenly VHP and bajrang dal take over the mantle of ‘protectors’ and it becomes an excuse for them to loot and burn down both hindu and muslim shops in partnership with muslim criminal elements.u will notice that muslim criminal elements start throwing stones at poicemen to start a riot too. the peace loving common muslims helplessly watch and later become the unsuspecting victims of this pre planned ‘tamasha’.this same pattern is followed to start a hindu muslim riot today and the biggest victims are those who have nothing to do with violence in either communities.so why is the congress quiet on all this u may ask ?? the answer lies in the age old belief of congressmen that the more insecure the indian minorities become the more they will be compelled to vote for the congress.the congress has its eyes fixed on the 2009 elections. it calculates that in 2009 many indian states who have 20 percent or more muslim numbers will have no other choice but to vote for the congress out of insecurity.remember the 2004 elections where ‘gujarat riots’ became a referendum in other parts of india to return the congress back to power. in uttar pradesh , bihar,assam, maharashtra, karnataka , andhra , kerala and west bengal the muslim vote share is average 20 to 22 percent ,strong enough to change the power equations.besides the congress has indulged in large scale corruption in the corporate and financial sector which in the near future which will witness the middle class savings vanish from various floted mutual funds and other schemes.remember the UTI SCANDAL DURING THE BJP REGIME.
*** Part of the Comment moved here ***
Comment by tarique | October 7, 2008
Dear Sir,
OOps Tarique is getting a lot straight. tarique let me take up your line later. It was great to read your analysis.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c. krishnan | October 7, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
@ tarique/ vck: I have moved the questions/remarks about George Soros to the appropriate thread…
I will respond in a day or two…In the meantime, there are many readers here who are probably better versed than me in these matters…I encourage them to respond to Tarique’s remarks…
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@ vck: Could you pl. add your thoughts on Soros to the economic debate thread…and keep this thread to only discuss the encounter…?
Thanks
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@ tarique: I like your thinking and your arguments…[well, most of them
].
We really do need more straight and clear-thinking people like you in politics…I hope you will re-consider my earlier suggestion of having a look at this post and joining one or more of the groups that have been mentioned:
Lets come together to build a *new* and proud India
.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 7, 2008
Some excerpts from “Behind the Batla House shootout” by Praveen Swami:
To read the story in full, including how investigators finally unearthed the links that led to Batla House,