Why are Christian Missionaries targeting India – III

I have decided to move recent comments to the earlier post to this fresh post (mainly to avoid the overload of 100+ comments).

Please continue with your comments below

*** COMMENTS BEGIN ***

 

Comment by B Shantanu | September 12, 2008

Short excerpt from Mainline Churches Must Address Christian Fundamentalism, Says Scholar, August 14, 2008

CHENNAI, India (UCAN) — A communication expert has urged mainline Churches in India to counter growing fundamentalism in Christianity.

Christian fundamentalism has grown in India as neo-conservative Christian sects mushroom, says Pradip Ninan Thomas, associate professor at the School of Journalism and Communication at the University of Queensland, Australia.

Such groups use television channels to project “triumphalistic, narrow and sectarian understandings of Christianity,” Thomas observes in his new book Strong Religion, Zealous Media, a two-year study of modern-day Christian fundamentalism in southern India’s Tamil Nadu state.

The India-born scholar says these groups, which now monopolize Christian broadcasting in India, support narrow understandings of Christianity, and demean other religions and lifestyles, and their content includes anti-Hindu and anti-Islamic sentiments.

***

Comment by Indian

I just read a news regarding probe into flow of foreign fund for converting Hindus into christian. Karnataka Govt. ordered this.

Yes thats true. But foreigners who are contributing this kind of funds are also unaware of this mission thats also true. I have gone into details few months back and I found out that many working class families from foreign countries
are sending donation from $1 to $ 10 or some may be more, to the priest of churches in Andhra, Tamilnadu, kerala.. so far in my knowledge for a cause to eliminate poverty and feed a mouth in India. They have no clue that these funds will be used to establish base of christianity. Priest in return sends out message of receipt of fund by thanking each family who contributed the amount by stating, how their act have helped poor and hungry in India.

As an Indian we are not against any religion. Let the church comes up, but going into remote area, preaching against (falsehood) Hinduism and converting them cannot be accepted.

Jai Hind!

***

Comment by B Shantanu

Excerpts from a Abusing freedom, falsifying gods by Kanchan Gupta

*** Excerpts Begin (emphasis mine) ***

On Monday, March 20, Assist News Service, based in Lake Forest, California, USA, which circulates news about the work of evangelists around the world, put out a story by Michael Ireland, its chief correspondent, headlined ‘India’s Prime Minister launches investigation into arrest and persecution of Indian Christians’.

According to this story, “India’s Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, has launched an investigation into the arrest of Hopegivers International President Dr Samuel Thomas.

…The story then goes on to urge Christians in the US to petition Senators, Congressmen and the US President against what it portrays as outrageous action by the Government of Rajasthan, prodded by ‘Hindu fascists’, against Dr Thomas and his fellow evangelists of Emmanuel Mission International that operates five registered societies in that State. These are: Emmanuel Bible Institute Samiti, Emmanuel Anath Ashram, Emmanuel School Society, Emmanuel Chikitsalaya Samiti and Emmanuel Believers Fellowship, all funded by the US-based Hopegivers.

What it does not mention, however, is the reason why Dr Thomas and his associates have been booked for violating Sections 153(a) and 295(a) of the IPC, “which deal with deliberately outraging religious feelings or insulting the religious beliefs of another community.” Dr Samuel Thomas has been arrested and his father, Mr MA Thomas, has been declared an absconder.

…Dr Thomas has been quoted saying, “Of course, none of these actions are legal. The terrorists and hate groups have taken the law into their own hands and sadly, we have lost confidence in the local Government to control them.”

Since evangelist advocacy groups have willfully refused to tell the full story, it would be in order to place the facts on record.

The immediate provocation that led to the arrest of Dr Thomas and others involved with the Emmanuel mission’s work in Kota is born of the contents of a book that he and his associates have been distributing among the people. The book, Haqeeqat, is authored by a Kerala-based evangelist, MG Matthew, and purports to be a rebuttal of MS Golwalkar’s writings that have been published by the RSS as Bunch of Thoughts.

In reality, it is unadulterated abuse of Hindu scriptures, faith, ritual and tradition. It denigrates every tenet of Hinduism and pours undiluted scorn on Hindu icons and gurus. It casts aspersions on the chastity of Hindu women and questions received wisdom.

…Here are some samples of what Haqeeqat, which was being used by the Thomases and their associates to convince Hindus in Kota to abandon their faith and embrace Christianity, has to say:

* “Hindu gods and goddesses are fictitious and were invented to persecute Dalits” (Page 9).

…
* “Naked sanyasis are worshipped by (Hindu) women. The moment (Hindu) women see naked sanyasis, they fall on the ground and prostrate themselves before the sanyasis. (Hindu) women pour water on the sanyasis’ penises and then happily drink that water. Ling Devata is gratified when he sees all these repulsive things and feels empowered… These people are ignorant and do not know the difference between what is right and wrong.” (Page 93)

* “Sita was abandoned in the forest as per Ram’s wishes… Ram later asked Lakshman to kill Sita. In the end, Ram frustrated with life, drowned himself in Saryu. Such are the teachings of half-naked rishis who are praised by Hindutvawadis.” (Page 100)

* “Lord Shiva, to get people to worship him, dropped his penis on Earth (Devi), shaking the ground and the sky! … . Poor Dharti Devi was shaken by the weight of his penis. Seeing this, all the Gods were scared. It seems Gods would use their penises as bombs! Whenever and wherever they wanted to, they would drop their ‘penis bombs’ to terrorise the people. Thus, they were able to enslave the people… But compared to foreign bombs, these penis bombs were a damp squib.” (Page 106-107)

* “(Ramakrishna) Paramahansa should have known that Ganga is the world’s filthiest and dirtiest river. How many dead bodies float down this river every day? How many half-burnt dead bodies are dumped into it every day?…” (Page 122-123)

* “(For Hindus) men can be Gods, women can be Goddesses… animals are gods, snakes are gods… they (Hindu Gods) fight among themselves, marry among themselves, throw out their wives, run away with others’ wives, they steal, get intoxicated, drink blood, are reincarnated as animals, fish and tortoise, some of them can lift mountains… Some Gods are in same-sex relationships and are yet able to produce babies. These Gods and Goddesses are always armed because they believe in killing and plunder. Some Gods think their penises are more powerful than nuclear bombs. Others like animals live naked among their followers. Some of them spend their time in yogic exercises, others are in samadhi and happy to see the number of blind followers swell… You can wash away your sins by worshipping the penises of Gods” (Page 146)

* “How could Arya Hindus bring Aryanisation on this earth. To be Arya, one has to be born of an Arya womb… If Arya Hindus want to bring Aryanisation then they must lend or rent out all Arya wombs to non-Aryans. Non-Aryans should be given Brahmin women so that children are born from Brahmin womb” (Page 182-183).

* “In modern India, many Ramas of this belief are living a carefree life. They marry several times, desert their wives, marry several times, and leave them. Many Ramas kill their Sitas. They are following their God Rama.” (Page 269)

* “(Lord) Krishna had a despicable sex life… Shri Krishna is famous because of his love life. He had 16,008 wives. And all Yadav women were his illegitimate lovers. (Hindu) women are drawn towards him because of pornographic and vulgar tales of his sex life.” (Page 391)

This is not the first time that the Emmanuel mission has run foul of the local administration and upset Hindus. On February 24, 2005, there was a near riot situation following the mission’s crude attempt to convert Hindus through allurement and false propaganda. On that occasion, the mission head, Mr MA Thomas, had promised not to continue with such provocative activities.

*** Execrpts End ***

***

Comment by Bharat

FYI.

Proof of Christian complicity in abusing Hindu Gods in Mangalore
http://greathindu.com/

Also read.
Karnataka State Home minister VS Acharya is also a blogger. Here are the some news/views, direct from his blog –

This has photos of Christians attacking Policemen.
http://drvsacharya.blogspot.com/2008/09/attacking-fellow-human-being-which.html

***

Comment by Patriot

@ Bharat:
Interesting links from GreatHindu. Thanks. But, take a step back and think about our response to the provocation. If the Bajrang Dal or whichever lumpen organisation has been attacking the churches/prayer halls had these papers in hand, why did they not file a criminal complaint against the pastors/missionaries/whoever and get them arrested and externed from Karnataka? I am sure, in a BJP-ruled state, this should not have been a problem?

No, instead the goons have to go around breaking up buildings …. I am sorry but all this looks like post-facto rationalisation and justification.

This may be a bitter pill to swallow, but our centuries old hindu civilisation is currently behaving like the people we detest. Congratulations to the Sangh parivar for achieving what centuries of mughal rule and british rule could not do – the rubbishing of hindu culture.

Here is another link of barbaric behaviour:
***

Comment by B Shantanu

Patriot, Bharat, All: I believe India is facing an existential challenge (or is that too strong a word?)…and it is time to rise above these things and strive to come together for the unity and security of our country…

Pl. read this short excerpt from When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds by Tarun Vijay (published on Rediff yesterday):

…India needs a rebellion of Indian people who would merge all their other identities under one banner — the tricolour. Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That’s where the nation gets life.

When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had lined up before the British for bakshish and be their officers.

Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic values.

What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil life of our nation?

Isn’t it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say ‘no’ to this bloodbath unitedly?

***

Comment by Indian

*** COMMENT COMBINED ***

I agree, Shantanu!

There are always bad apples, let them rot, and its not the end of the world. What you mentioned. Very true, few are interested in nation and comes out to fight for it. Others are too lazy or not interested and has selfish moto. I have learned that we all have differences but we all have responsibilities towards the nation, leave behind differences. Don’t give a heed to such elements who are uprooting our unity.

Jai Hind

***
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19church.htm

Attack on church. It reminds me of “Lato Ke Bhoot Bato se Nahi mante”. Groups are left with no options and support and have to get it done by any means. Only difference is they are (Missionaries are sophisticated goons). The attack of converting Hindus in to christian by sophisticated means is no less than what has been done by attacking misionaries.

Sorry for my words. No one heard the groups who are demanding the probe in to this conversion mission. Govt., turned deaf ear to people of India. This is only we can envisage.

The attack on Hindu priest by some christian when senaotrs called him for prayers in U.S is not new news to all of us.

Also read, nice piece to understand why this happened.

http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PAGEID=7100&SKIN=B

***
On the back of my mind I was thinking. Sociologists have recommended; There will be no clashes, no fight and no hate, if world has one religion and one language. Is these they want to achieve?

***

Comment by Bharat

To all:

1. I am always for peaceful co-existence (PC), I mean true PC. However, the very term co-existence is not one-sided, but multi-sided. I can’t co-exist with others, if others don’t wish to co-exist. Others want I surrender, give up everything of my own and accept their will, their way. In that situation, co-existence is impossible. Give us example of one place on earth, where chrsitians and muslims allowed others peaceful co-existence. They terrorised natives to bow before them, accept their will and order. Read the Goa Inquisition and see how barbaric and cruel it was. And the man who did all these cruel barbarity is a glorified Saint.

2. Japan surprised and shocked USA by attacking Pearl Harbour. What US did? They took their own time and then taught Japan a lession perhaps it will never forget till its existence. Today, Japan is, no doubt, an economic power, but a sub-ordinate power under USA. It ives like wet cat under US nuclear umbrella and command.

3. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism is not a new phenomenon, neither in India nor outside. They destroyed culture after culture across the world. Look at NE India, even at time of independence there was not a single christian majority state. Today, they shout Nagaland for Christ and a tiny Hindus can’t even built a mandir. Most of NE India’s militancy now run by the church and christians. They almost encircled Asom, which remained Hindu majority, from all sides. Its a matter of time, they will start sessation movement like East Timor and their western masters will overtly support it.

4. What Dalai Lama had to say about his country’s invasion and then colonisation by the China. He said, before Buddhism, Tibetans were warior people and they conqured others. After Buddhism entered Tibet, Tibetans became so non-violent that they lost any sense of thinking to protect themselves. Consequence, when China invaded, they had nothing to do but surrender and live as sub-ordinate and second class people.

5. There is a saying in Samskrit, Veer Bhugya Vasundhara (the World only enjoyed by the braves). Hindus have did, and seen enough cowardice and sweet lectures. Enough is enough. Half a million Kashmiri Hindus (they call themselves Pandits) run away from their thousand years of living place, they had no guts to resist and fight. Because, they never learned how to protect themselves and turned themselves into bunch of cowards and impotents. They lived under the protection of Dogras. Had there been half a million Dogras or Sikhs in Kashmir valley, they would not have run away. Why Jammu people revolted in recent Amarnath land issue? Simply because, Jammu is dominated by the Dogras (about 65% are Dogras).

6. Why not we talk about dareness of christians in Orissa (they comprise around 2%) to brutally and mercilessly killing a 84 years old Swamji and his deciples on Janmastami night? When an Autralian missioanry was killed, news run months and condemnations for years. And he was decorated with national awards, for converting Hindus into christianity. Why double standards? People revolted in Orissa, retaliated and why not? Are Hindus born to bear humiliations and oppression all the time? For cowards yes, not for the braves.

7. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism on Hidnus have to stop, stop permanently if govt and people want to see peace and harmony. Else, nothing can stop it from more conflicts. Its not my wish, its natural consequence. Instead of addressing the illegal Conversions and Hindu abusing actions by the christians, Govt of India warns states with article 355 (precursor to article 356). What a nation we live, is it a covert christian nation? Not covert anymore, now it overt.

8. Those Hindus thinks all such retaliations are by VHP or Bajrandal, need to come out from sicular medias traps. There may be some incidents, in most cases they are spontaneous. Does that means all Hindus overnight turned into VHP and Bajrangdal? Well, that would be wonderful. And what secular govt will do, if all Hindus turned into VHP and BD? Every Hindus seeing situations of Hindus in J&K, Kerala, Asom and many other places. They don’t need VHP or BD to get incited and agitated. This is my experience, not from textbooks.

Bharat

***

Comment by Indian

Very well said! Bharat!

*** COMMENTS END ***

Please continue the discussion via comments to this post instead of the earlier one.

Separately, I have uploaded a document in the “Docs and Slides” box on the right titled, “Preparing for the Harvest” (first published in Tehelka). Many of you will find it interesting. Download it here

Thanks.

Related Posts:

“Why are Christian Missions targetting India?” – II

“Why have Missionaries chosen to attack India?”

.

Part IV here: On Kandhamal, Conversions and Proselytization

B Shantanu

Political Activist, Blogger, Advisor to start-ups, Seed investor. One time VC and ex-Diplomat. Failed mushroom farmer; ex Radio Jockey. Currently involved in Reclaiming India - One Step at a Time.

You may also like...

118 Responses

  1. Bharat says:

    To all:

    1. I am always for peaceful co-existence (PC), I mean true PC. However, the very term co-existence is not one-sided, but multi-sided. I can’t co-exist with others, if others don’t wish to co-exist. Others want I surrender, give up everything of my own and accept their will, their way. In that situation, co-existence is impossible. Give us example of one place on earth, where chrsitians and muslims allowed others peaceful co-existence. They terrorised natives to bow before them, accept their will and order. Read the Goa Inquisition and see how barbaric and cruel it was. And the man who did all these cruel barbarity is a glorified Saint.

    2. Japan surprised and shocked USA by attacking Pearl Harbour. What US did? They took their own time and then taught Japan a lession perhaps it will never forget till its existence. Today, Japan is, no doubt, an economic power, but a sub-ordinate power under USA. It ives like wet cat under US nuclear umbrella and command.

    3. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism is not a new phenomenon, neither in India nor outside. They destroyed culture after culture across the world. Look at NE India, even at time of independence there was not a single christian majority state. Today, they shout Nagaland for Christ and a tiny Hindus can’t even built a mandir. Most of NE India’s militancy now run by the church and christians. They almost encircled Asom, which remained Hindu majority, from all sides. Its a matter of time, they will start sessation movement like East Timor and their western masters will overtly support it.

    4. What Dalai Lama had to say about his country’s invasion and then colonisation by the China. He said, before Buddhism, Tibetans were warior people and they conqured others. After Buddhism entered Tibet, Tibetans became so non-violent that they lost any sense of thinking to protect themselves. Consequence, when China invaded, they had nothing to do but surrender and live as sub-ordinate and second class people.

    5. There is a saying in Samskrit, Veer Bhugya Vasundhara (the World only enjoyed by the braves). Hindus have did, and seen enough cowardice and sweet lectures. Enough is enough. Half a million Kashmiri Hindus (they call themselves Pandits) run away from their thousand years of living place, they had no guts to resist and fight. Because, they never learned how to protect themselves and turned themselves into bunch of cowards and impotents. They lived under the protection of Dogras. Had there been half a million Dogras or Sikhs in Kashmir valley, they would not have run away. Why Jammu people revolted in recent Amarnath land issue? Simply because, Jammu is dominated by the Dogras (about 65% are Dogras).

    6. Why not we talk about dareness of christians in Orissa (they comprise around 2%) to brutally and mercilessly killing a 84 years old Swamji and his deciples on Janmastami night? When an Autralian missioanry was killed, news run months and condemnations for years. And he was decorated with national awards, for converting Hindus into christianity. Why double standards? People revolted in Orissa, retaliated and why not? Are Hindus born to bear humiliations and oppression all the time? For cowards yes, not for the braves.

    7. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism on Hidnus have to stop, stop permanently if govt and people want to see peace and harmony. Else, nothing can stop it from more conflicts. Its not my wish, its natural consequence. Instead of addressing the illegal Conversions and Hindu abusing actions by the christians, Govt of India warns states with article 355 (precursor to article 356). What a nation we live, is it a covert christian nation? Not covert anymore, now it overt.

    8. Those Hindus thinks all such retaliations are by VHP or Bajrandal, need to come out from sicular medias traps. There may be some incidents, in most cases they are spontaneous. Does that means all Hindus overnight turned into VHP and Bajrangdal? Well, that would be wonderful. And what secular govt will do, if all Hindus turned into VHP and BD? Every Hindus seeing situations of Hindus in J&K, Kerala, Asom and many other places. They don’t need VHP or BD to get incited and agitated. This is my experience, not from textbooks.

    Bharat

  2. Indian says:

    Very well said! Bharat!

  3. vck says:

    Dear Sir,
    I am really dissolusioned of the Christians if what you have written is true about this thomas; I am not any way surprised as if you look at the places where the riots between communities are taking place, you will notice that most of these places are where the Malayalle Christian priests perform.
    I studied in Christian school and let me repeat, as I have said the same thing earlier, I have had great times with the foreign priests who came to our schools as rectors and principals.
    I also wish to state that it was only after the Indianistion of the priestheed that I am faced with a problem of the christian laity.
    I am ashamed to state that when I wanted admission in a Christian school where my family had studied, the Indian Christian principal asked me a question which shocked me; “she asked why do you want to put your child in a Christian school when you are a Hindu”.
    She had the right to ask it and I accepted her argument. At the same time when there was a celeberation for a jubliee of the school and when she approached the Alumanae for funds I saw to that we collected funds for the “School”.
    Let me assure you that it is truly the Indians who have contributed more to this divide rather than the foreigners.
    It is more to hit the Hindu psyche as most of them come very poor backgrounds or sometimes do not even have something known as a background. I have seen even during my schooldays when orphans were trained to be priests and nuns as they had some avocation to take to.
    At that time most of them had the funds that the British had left them. Today they are hardpressed for funds and hence to keep the funds flowing they indulge in these rabid dog behaviour.
    The need of the hour is more of a dialogue rather than confrontation as it is only Indian vs Indian and India will be the loser
    Let me write something we can dialogue on later.
    regards,
    vck

  4. B Shantanu says:

    Bharat: I have some sympathy for your sentiments…

    A “Hindu” in India today feels besieged…he feels he is slowly being encircled…that his voice is not being heard and his concerns are not shared…

    This perplexes him as he has always believed this is his motherland, his “natural” home, the birthplace of his faith…and yet, he feels unsafe in large parts of Bharat-bhumi…in Maharashtra (if he is from UP/Bihar), in Assam (likewise), in Kashmir, in Orissa…

    He feels not only his life and personal safety but also his belief system is being attacked – slowly but systematically…

    He feels exasperated that he has to preface every grievance that he may have by stressing his “secular” credentials – lest he be mistook for a “Hindutva-wadi”…He feels embarrassed to mention his faith in public discourse…and constantly feels that he is being forced on the backfoot…

    At some point, this feeling gives way to anger – spontaneous, unplanned and unpredictable…and we all wonder where and how did this happen…

    This is what you saw in Kandhamal…and in Jammu…unforeseen reaction of people who feel that their back is against the wall…

    Is their logic to this? Probably not…but is the feeling real? It does appear to be…

    Comments and thoughts from others welcome.

    P.S. I need not add that the use of “he” above is meant to indicate “he” & “she” both.

  5. Bharat says:

    Statement of Shri Ravi Shankar Prasad
    National Spokesperson & MP

    The BJP Condemns Abuse Of Article 355 by The UPA Government

    The BJP strongly condemns the move of the Government of India to issue directives under Article 355 of the Constitution of India to the governments of Karnataka and Orissa, ruled by the BJP and the BJP-BJD alliance respectively. The entire action is politically motivated, highly prejudicial, patently discriminatory and a belated attempt by the UPA government to divert the popular attention over its abject failure to take strong and effective measures to contain terrorism in the Country which has left a painful legacy of insecure India where terrorists are killing the innocent people with impunity.

    Read more here.
    http://www.bjp.org/

  6. Bharat says:

    ‘Inducements lure poor to convert’
    17 Sep 2008, 0210 hrs IST, Rishikesh Bahadur Desai,TNN
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Inducements_lure_poor_to_convert/articleshow/3491637.cms

    Satya Darshini – the reason for attacks?
    http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Sep172008/district2008091690423.asp

  7. Patriot says:

    Well said, Bharat ….. I am sure you will find a lot of support for your views on this blog as well outside.

    In fact, Raj Thackeray must be one of your most ardent supporters, given that he has been using the same tactics in Mumbai. Of course, his battle is against a different community, but that is such a small point, a mere bagatelle. Since, you are all cut from the same cloth and what is sauce for the goose, etc etc

  8. Sridhar says:

    While we condemn the attack on religious places, we should also equally, probably more strongly, condemn the root cause: conversion by spreading hatred about Hinduism, which is like forced conversion.

    ***

    The Following are the list of abuses from one such book – Satya Darshini – distributed by the missionaries of New Life. This book is in Kannada and the translation of the abusive passage is as follows.

    1. Urvashi – the daughter of Lord Vishnu – is a prostitute. Vashitha is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married his own Mother. Such a degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)

    2. When Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of hell, how can he enlighten others? Since Krishna himself is a shady character, there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers. (page 50)·

    3. It was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita. Since Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to consider them as Gods. (page 39)

    4. When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) are consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others. Their projection as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).

    5. When Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did so. How can such a “evil brahma” be a Creator of this Universe? How is it possible for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be gods? (page 39)

    6. God, please liberate the sinful people of India who are worshipping False Gods that believe in the pleasures of illicit ‘Vyabichari’ relationships. (Page 39).

    Please read the below images of Pages from SATHYADARSHINI. Pls read till the end (Kannada Version).

  9. Objective Eye says:

    I got the following in an email. I am posting it here, as it is, for the sake of those who love being fanatics and can thrive only in hostile atmosphere. I wonder how different are we from Taliban and other fanatics around the world. Given a chance we would give to India what they have done to their country: Destruction and Mayhem. One can see it already.

    pDhirendra Panda writes:

    I am born of a hindu Brahmin family. My father and other relatives being devotedly religious persons used to tell me that sanyasis are symbols of love, care, truth, justice above earthly hatred-ness, jealousy, violence. We were told about the stories of Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Param Hansa, Sri Chaitanya, Jayadev, Aurovindo.

    During my childhood, it would have been quite difficult to digest that sadhus and saints engaged for spreading hate and violence. Similarly there would be many people to disbelieve that sadhus are campaigning for votes to a particular party and using religion for political ends. So nobody should get surprised if they call for wiping out the Christians from Kandhamal.

    On 6th August 2008 there were 144 in and around Swadhinata Sangrami Sadan Ground. Considering the announcements and assurance given by the Police Officers and others, it was thought the government will not allow any rally or meeting of VHP. But the VHP had its Sraddhanjali sabha (Tribute paying meet) and along with sadhu (ascetic holy man) sanths (saints), BJP leaders such as Suresh Pujari (President,Orissa BJP), Prasanna Mishra, Panchanan Rout, MLA Pratap Sarangi and Subash Chouhan, Bajranga Dal leader were present in the Meeting.

    Please read some of the statements given in the meeting

    Mahant Swami Satchidananda Maharaj, presiding over the Meet:
    Sacrifice of Swamiji will be meaningful once the cow-slaughter and conversion is totally stopped in the state. In each village committees will be formed to actualize the dreams of Swamiji. If the villagers get awareness, these will be stopped automatically.

    Tridandi Swami Bhagwan Das:
    Now the Hindus have become minority. There is an international conspiracy behind it. The Christians, majority in 186 countries have not only killed Laxmanananda, but also doing this; they have challenged the entire Hindu Society.

    Swami Arupananda Maharaj:
    Attack on Swamiji is the same as attacking the ‘Hindu Religion’. All the saints/sadhus need to counter-attack unitedly otherwise the entire India will be converted into a Christian nation.

    Swami Brahmananda Saraswati:
    Once the Englishmen came for trade and commerce had occupied our country. Now Christians in the name of ‘the minorityism’ have come again to take away our ‘independence’. If the attack continues like this, the Hindu community will be wiped out one day.

    Swami Satyapriya Maharaj, Arya Samaj:
    The Government is like a eunuch that could not give protection to Swamiji, but continue in giving protection to murderers.

    Abinash Baba, Joranda:
    This is a country of saints and sadhus and the country is ‘functioning’ for them only. The Government should provide security and protection to mathas and temples.

    Ramacharan Das Maharaj:
    Limiting ourselves in mere blaming the Government will not serve the purpose. We have to realize and decide that whoever will be able to understand the Hindu religion and respect the saints and sadhus can sit on the throne. If this happens, all the problems will be solved.

    Swami Chanmayananda Maharaj:
    The Hindus occupying 85 % of total population are screaming, but the government pays no heed to it. The situation is like this only because we are not united. If we unitedly put all our votes for one party, everything will be set aright. Shankaracharya should be entrusted with the responsibility to decide whom to vote for and issue ‘whips’ to cast all our votes accordingly. By this whichever party comes to power will be compelled to respect our words.

    Ashok Sahu, President, Hindu Jagaran Samukhya (former DG, Police Assam):
    [Archbishop] Raphael Cheenath, President, Loka Sangram Dalit Manch and John Doyal have hands behind the murder of Laxmanananda.

    Gouri Prasad Rath, General Secretary, VHP:
    Now Orissa is run under demonic prowess. The sadhus and sanths were arrested for no reason. They were not allowed to have darshan (see) to Sri Ram temple. The Police should beg apology for insulting the Hindu community in Orissa by arresting the sadhus and saints. As we were not allowed to hold condolence (sradhhanjali) rally, henceforth we’ll never allow anybody to hold peace rallies here. Unless the killers of Swamiji are arrested, there will be no peace in Orissa.

    Ashok Tiwary, VHP’s Akhil Bharatiya Dharma Jagaran Pramukh; Ramanuj Das Moharaj, Chintamani Parbat Maharaj, Mahanta Raghubir Das Maharaj, Mahanta Ram Charan Das Maharaj, Mahant Ramakrishna Das Maharaj, Sankarananda Maharaj, Mahant Narayan Baba, Brahmachari Jiban Chaitanya Maharaj, Swami Prana Swarupananda Maharaj have taken vow ? The Christians will be wiped out from Kandhamal.__,_._,___

  10. Indian says:

    @ Objective Eye: I dont find anything wrong in defending our dharma. Hindus have been good enough till now, but the world is not. India has been a place were everyone lived peacefully and world is taking advantage of this. Our old dharama have made us defenseless. There is vast difference between fanatism and protecting one’s dharama. I liked it what this saints have done it in the meetings.

    Take any religion their priest is the one who takes reign. Now we learned this. Wasn’t it bad when pope uttered the words such as hindus are worshipping false god. When pope can incite hatered and compared to that our sadhus and saints have done nothing! Atleast we are not telling others that your religion is so and so. I think this is need of the time our saints also helps us to keep our cutlture and religion intact. Would you like hindus wiped out from India? Christian missionaries are definitely on that mission. If we dont raise our heads soon we will be out of our country? Open your eyes!

  11. Bharat says:

    FYI. New target areas of Soul Harvesting Business.

    World’s Former Only Hindu Country Opens to Christianity
    By Jennifer Riley
    Christian Post Reporter
    Mon, Jul. 14 2008 01:56 PM EDT
    http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080714/world-s-former-only-hindu-country-opens-to-christianity.htm

  12. Objective Eye says:

    @ Indian,
    I don’t speak for Pope. But, still would like to be informed when and where did he utter these words. I will surely speak out against it.

    Regarding Dharma, my understanding differs vastly from yours. True and Real Dharma allows people to either Embrace it or Leave it. It never imposes itself upon anybody because it can exist without anybody’s help. The very fact that a Dharma starts to strangulate people to remain in it and follow it, raises doubts about its authenticity. Extreme reactions only manifests its own fears of not being genuine.

    Have you ever wondered why there is never any hue and cry in any Christian majority nations when somebody leaves Christianity and joins any other faith. Its never an issue for Christians. Why?

    A Dan Brown novel (The Da Vinci Code) attacking Christian beliefs never resulted in any riots or even a single demonstration anywhere in the Christian world. And this is just one of the many hundred writings that has attacked Christian tenets in the past. Why?

    Movies deriding their Lord (Jesus Christ Superstar) nor hundreds such works have never got Christians taking up arms or getting the film banned. Why?

    The only explanation I can think of is that they are very comfortable with their faith irrespective of what you think of them, irrespective of whether people leave it and join other faith.

  13. Patriot says:

    Continuing violence against christian tribals in orissa – the hate campaign rolls on (so much for the alleged tolerance of hinduism):
    http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1193118
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fresh-violence-arson-in-kandhamal-curfew-clamped/365791

    Here is a very interesting set of articles from DNA: Ultras, zealots, both misuse faith
    http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1190773&pageid=0

    The ass brigades of VHP and Bajrang Dal keep up their diatribe about conversions – poor insecure, useless souls. And, these self-styled swamis would probably be better addressed as Talib XYZ, etc.

    Carry on guys, breaking up India. Why do you protest against Raj Thackeray, then?

  14. Indian says:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    Objective Eye

    When someone leaves christianity, its not been done by force or taking advantage of their naiveness and innocency. Hindus are being converted by brain washing and Christian missionaries are on a mission to convert people. This issue was alos brought to notice during world religion conference with videos and litrature they uses. No Hindu organisation is engaged is such activity. So no reason for hue and cry.

    Regarding pope words, I will find the link, it was in a few days back only. I was also one of the victim for conversion, But I put them in a jinx, and also I have inspired them to read Hinduism before going to educated Hindu.

    ***

    I have also heard and read somewhere that christian missionaries have planned and drafted a list “How to deal with Hindus and specially intelligent public” I read with my own eyes. If I get that copy on site somehwere I will publish here.

    ***

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/25tarun.htm

    By Tarun Vijay

    Nice piece to read

  15. Mahesh Patil says:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    PART I PART II AND PART III… and still bloggers are going about the christian conversion debates!.

    I am commenting for the first time on this thread.. because a question arose in my mind… about how knowingly and unknowingly mostly all or should i say 100% all of the people who have commented against christian missionary conversions could turn to be double standard or hypocrates.

    All of are talking about dhrama and hindu religion and how missionaries are converting people… Well Well NEWS FLASH or REALITY CHECK PEOPLE.. KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY YOU ALL HAVE FALLEN INTO THEIR TRAP AND ARE SOME WHAT CONVERTED and Accepted CHristainity or Chirstain culture…

    Now you must be wondering how and what am i talking…
    just ask some questions to yourself… and if most of the answers are yes.. then you are either converted or accepted
    christian culture.

    1)DO YOU CELEBRATE YOUR BIRTHDAY with a CAKE? n Candles
    ( hindu birthdays should be celebrated with a sweet dish
    like kheers .. and aarti and not candles)

    2)Do you celebrate HAPPY NEW YEAR on 31st Decemeber!!… hmm we celebrate christain new year… and some of the people even christmas… (how many of the hindus even know when are their new years of their respective community and celebrate with the same eager as do for christain new year)

    3)Valentines day!!! …( i dont even want to get started on this one)

    Well i know most of us have celebrated any of the above major christains festivals and ceremonies… so semi-converted ones … before this thread reaches to part IV… introspect and think about your own contributions towards this whole aspect.

    And As far as WHY CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ARE TARGETING INDIA?… BEcause They know they can easily put a TOPI(cap) on the educated crowd of India, via there strong marketing of festivals and products…via american and other christain countries companies..

    So bloggers no double standards!!!.. either completely oppose christainity and chirstian culture n products or dont comment on conversions.!

    जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!

    ***

    some of the other signals of semi converted ones

    1)They send and flaunt by sayin “my kid goes to a convent schools or colleges?”
    I have seen on matrimonials advertisements.. boy/girl convent educated! …. i wonder the only thing remaining is to write convent converted!!..

  16. Indian says:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    Readers please take note.

    Sorry for my comment #14 where I said I was one of the victim. Its not victim, but they tried their hard covincing me.

    ***

    @ Mahesh: I completely agree. It is about trade and commerce, when we celebrate their festival. Business takes off by selling cards, roses and unnecessary gifts.

    ***

    @ Objective Eye: http://www.financialexpress.com/news/World-worships-false-idols-Pope/361114/

  17. Joy says:

    Aren’t you already Christianized & Westernized?
    Question also for the Hard core Hindutva peddlers.

    Some more check points:
    1. Do you prefer wearing Shirts and trousers more than traditional Indian dhoti kurta?

    2. Do you wear tie when you dress up formally for interviews and 2-piece suits for other occasions?

    3. Do you prefer any western genre of music even for Hindi songs than the Indian classical music? Raag Bhairavi or….

    4. Do you love Guitar over Sitar, Piano over Harmonium, Drum set over Tabla/Dholak?

    5. Do you love western style dancing over Indian dance forms in the discotheques and parties? Check out even the 50s/60s ‘Hindi’ movies and know the truth about Indian hypocrisies.

  18. Tatichawla says:

    Hi Joy – your comment is interesting, but I’d say we’ve been open to westernisation really NOT Christianization

    Let’s see if Jesus Christ was christianized:

    1. Did Jesus prefer wearing Shirts and trousers more than traditional clothing? NO

    2. Do Jesus wear a tie when he dressed up formally for interviews and 2-piece suits for other occasions? Will take a pass on that

    3. Did Jesus prefer any western genre of music even for his local songs/hymns more than the classical music of his geography and age? NO

    4. Did he love Guitar over ……..? NO

    Hence Jesus Christ wasn’t Christian

    Seriously, I seriously doubt if JC would tolerate the Pope and his cohorts and whatever they preach as Christian if he were to return today…From reading the NT it seems to me he was keen to develop the love in one’s heart not political influence, least by bribing and brainwashing the unsuspecting and gullible

  19. B Shantanu says:

    @ Indian: Thanks for the link (#14).

    All: I would highly recommend the article by Tarun Vijay: Wounded hearts from which I am reproducing this brief excerpts:

    All the incidents that took place were not attacks on churches. In fact, unauthorised prayer halls were attacked where the blasphemous pamphlets were distributed and aggressive proselytisation was taking place. These incidents were not localised but took place across three districts of Mangalore, Udupi and Chikmagalur.

    The only place where attacks took place apart from New Life prayer halls was at a small prayer hall in the premises of Milagres church in Mangalore, where some miscreants had damaged an idol of Jesus Christ. The Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Bajrang Dal have condemned this attack. Following this incident, a Christian mob gathered and the situation went out of control as it started pelting stones and disrupting traffic. The police was forced to intervene and this resulted in unsavoury violence.

    It was not a Hindu-Christian clash. In fact, it is more appropriate to call it a ‘Christian-police’ clash. Since some Christians holed up in churches were pelting stones and disrupting traffic, the police was forced to enter the church to clear the mob.

    ***

    @ Mahesh, Joy: Both of you would find this sentence interesting (from Tarun Vijay’s article):

    Vivekananda, who officially started celebrating Christmas in all his great centres of Hindu faith the world over, which has continued unopposed

  20. Patriot says:

    This line is wrong: “Vivekananda, who officially started celebrating Christmas in all his great centres of Hindu faith the world over, which has continued unopposed”

    Which great centres of Hindu faith is Tarun Vijay talking about? Ramkrishna Mission? Vedanta Mission? Neither of the two celebrate christmas. Also, Tarun should provide the evidence of Vivekananda having ever celebrated christmas.

    “The only place where attacks took place apart from New Life prayer halls”

    So, we ascribe ourselves the right to take the law into our own hands in certain cases, as determined by ourselves.
    Please explain to me how this is different from the tactics adopted by the Shiv Sena earlier, and now Raj Thackeray?

    Tarun Vijay’s article is puerile nonsense and goes against the entire concept of our civil law and order. Tomorrow, if I do not like the way certain people drive on the streets of Mumbai (and plenty break driving rules, even in Mumbai now), am I justified if I go about beating up these errant drivers? Maybe shooting them?

    Really pathetic, the type of logic people use to justify violence.

  21. Mahesh Patil says:

    I was searching through the net, after reading the Tarun Vijay’s article for Swami Vivekananda celebrating christmas… Well i wasnt able to find any link which states that Swami VIvekananda initiated it..

    yes i did find links of the vidyapith celebrating christmas
    But, it doesnt says it was initiated by vivekananda…

    ” Anyways i am not opposing a hindu celebrating christain newyears or attending easter partys or chirstmas or cutting cakes the point i am trying to make is “if those hindus who are celebrating the birth of christainity and christain culture..then why are these same hindus oppossing conversions ?” if anyone wants to be secular.. dont be selective… or else you are just another double dholki

    The same logic i would like to apply for vijay’s article
    that if Vivekananda did initiate to celebrate chirstmas or the birth of christ… and IF the answer is yes..then was Vivekananda opposed to chirstain conversions?


    जय हिंद! जय महाराष्ट्र !!

    http://www.vidyapith.org/Folder_2006/News2005.shtml

  22. B Shantanu says:

    @ Patriot: Thanks for the comment.

    1. Just to put a conext around attack on New Life prayer halls…

    New Life is the organisation that allegedly published the inflammatory booklet (mentioned in comment #8 above).

    That does not justify violence…and you are right, we cannot let hurt feelings undermine civil law and order…

    2. The second point is about selective/slanted reporting by the media…

    I still have not seen any reports about the alleged desecration of Vinayaka idols in Ramanathapurama…

    ***

    Mahesh: You raise some good points…I have a post in the making on conversions (specifically)…Hopefully I will get a chance to address your questions in that…thanks.

  23. Vinay says:

    Here is some material taken from Sita Ram Goel’s book “Vindicated by Time” based on the 1956 Niyogi commission report on missionary activities.

    We are not against ANY religion. Infact, I myself have read the New Testament many many times, and have found great wisdom in it. What we are against is the unscrupulous conversion efforts done by missionaries who exploit the misery of man to make him change his religion, and are funded by western churches on a grand scale. We must get this across too – increasingly people think that if you are pro-hindu, you are anti-muslim/anti-christian. I am certainly pro-hindu, and am NOT anti anyone. In fact I feel there is room for Jesus WITHIN hinduism. I regard Jesus as a hindu saint.

    ___________________________________________________________

    The Report revealed that the bulk of this foreign money received ostensibly for maintaining ?educational and medical institutions? was spent on proselytization. ?It has been contended,? said the Report, ?that most of the amount is utilised for creating a class of professional proselytisers, both foreign as well as Indian. We have not been able to get the figures of the salaries which the foreign Missionaries receive for their service in India. Only Rev. Hartman (Amravati No. 1) was pleased to declare that his salary was 63 dollars per month paid from Rome, plus free quarters and vehicle allowance. One can have some idea of the scale of salaries of American Missionaries from the fact that in the American Evangelical and Reformed Church there are 28 Missionaries on the India roll and under the head of Missionary salaries and appurtenances the figure comes to 90,072,23 dollars& nbsp;(American Evangelistic and Reformed Church Blue Book, 1955, pages 56,60). They are supplied with well-furnished bungalows, and they command resources in vehicles and other things.?73 At the same time it noted a great disparity between the scales of salaries and allowances paid to foreign missionaries on the one hand and to their native mercenaries on the other.

    There were 480 foreign missionaries working in Madhya Pradesh at that time. Out of them as many as 236 were Americans. The Report gave a count of foreign missionaries, Americans and others, stationed in the 22 districts of the then Madhya Pradesh. ?Besides those,? it added, ?included in the number given by the National Christian Council in the Christian Handbook of India 1954-55, it appears from the statement of Rev. R.C. Das that there is a large number of unattached evangelists. Rev. Das?s statement receives support from the remark made in the Compiler?s introduction to the Christian Hand-Book of India 1954-55 that the increased personnel has occurred in the smaller Missions most of which do not yet have any organised Churches.?74

    The methods of proselytisation had remained the same as in days of old. The Report gave concrete instances of how mission schools were used to influence the minds of young people. Harijan and ?Adivasi? students came in for special attention. They were ?given free boarding, lodging and books? provided they attended Christian prayers. Bible classes were made compulsory by treating as absent for the whole day those students who failed to be present in those classes. School celebrations were used for showing the victory of the cross over all other symbols. Hospitals were used for putting pressure on poor class patients to embrace Christianity. The richest harvest, however, was reaped in mission orphanages which collected orphans during famines and other natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes. ?No wonder,? observed the Report, ?that the largest number of converts are from such backward classes living in areas where due to various causes only Mission schools and hospitals exist. Most conversions have been doubtless insincere admittedly brought about in expectation of social service benefits and other material considerations.?75

    Another device employed for proselytisation was money-lending. Roman Catholic missions had specialised in this field. Poor people often approached the local missionary for loans which were written off if the debtor became a convert; otherwise he had to repay it with interest which were often found difficult. Protestant missionaries and others cited before the Committee instances of how this method worked. One of the conditions forgetting a loan, for instance, was that the recipient agreed to chop off the topknot (choti), the symbol of his being a Hindu. ?Some of the people,? the Report noted, ?who had received loans were minors and casual labourers. It also appeared that when one member of a family had taken a loan, all the other members of that family were entered in the book as potential converts. The rate of interest charged was 10 per cent and in a large number of cases ex amined, one year?s interest was deducted in advance. On being questioned, the people without any hesitation, said that their only purpose in going to the Mission had been to get money; and all said that without the lure of money none would have sought to become Christian.?76 Some other allurements such as the ?promise of gift of salt, plough, bullocks and even milk powder received from abroad? were used to the same effect.77

    There were several other ways of attracting converts. For instance, the new converts were employed as pracharaks on salaries ranging from Rs. 40/- to Rs. 100/- per month. This by itself proved an attractive proposition to those who were not in a position or qualified to earn even Rs. 20/-. Christians working in various government departments were exhorted and expected to participate in the game. Those who did not help were cursed in missionary publications. Christians placed in higher positions and missionaries who became influential members of the Janapad Sabhas put pressure on junior officers for influencing people in favour of Christianity.

    The Report also noted ?various methods of propagating Christianity.?78 Missionary publications ?attacked idol worship in rather offensive terms.? Dramas in which idol worship was ridiculed were performed in schools and elsewhere. Songs to the same effect were composed and sung. Rama was ?described as a God who destroyed Ravan and was contrasted with Jesus who died for the wicked.? Methods evolved for conveying Christianity in Hindu cultural forms were also in evidence. Some of them were plainly dishonest, as for instance, ?the expression occurring in Tulsidas?s Ramayan, viz. ?Gidapujan? was interpreted to the people as ?Girjaghar? i.e., a Church.?79 But, on the whole, preference was given to vicious attacks on Hindui sm, which was held up as a false religion. ?Such virulent and sinister attacks on Hinduism,? observed the Report, ?are in no way a departure from the manner which characterised the Christian preaching in the past, which Gandhiji referred to, particularly Bishop Heber?s famous hymn, ?where every prospect pleases and only man is vile?.?80

    The Report contained a section on Mass Conversions brought about by material inducements. ?If conversion is an individual act,? it noted, ?one would expect deep thought and study of the particular religion one wanted to embrace. But what we have found is groups of illiterate Adivasis, with families and children getting their topknots cut and being shown as Christians. Most of them do not know even the rudiments of the new religion… The Government has supplied us with a list of persons recently converted in the Surguja district after the promulgation of the Constitution. A perusal thereof will show that about 4000 Uraons were converted in two years. Persons of varying ages from 60 years to 1 year are shown as converts and the list includes women and children also. We have met many Uraons in the course of our tours and we were struck very much by their total absence of religious feeling.?81

    The Committee had ?reliable information that Mission organisations possess upto-date records of Baptisms.?82 But they refused to produce these records. ?It would not be unsafe,? concluded the Report, ?to presume that the reluctance on the part of the Roman Catholic Mission organisations to produce such evidence was in no small measure due to the fear of the Truth being out? As a rule, groups have been converted, and we find ?individual conversion? has been an exception rather than the rule. We have come across cases of individual conversions only of persons who are village leaders and they have invariably been followed by ?Mass conversions? of the entire village soon after. We have not found it possible to accept the contention that the immediate material prosperity of these converted leaders bore no causal relation to their conversions.?83

    The Report expressed the view that conversions led directly to denationalisation. Greetings such as ?Ram Ram? and ?Jai Hind? were substituted with ?Jai Yeshu?. ?The idea of the unique Lordship of Christ,? recorded the Report, ?is propagated in rural areas by the exhibition of the film ?King of Kings?, which we had the pleasure of witnessing at Buldana. The supremacy of the Christian flag over the National flag of India was also depicted in the drama which was staged in a school at Jabaipur.?84 The missionary paper, Nishkalanka, had written, ?Why does India desire that Portugal which has been exercising sovereignty for 400 years over Goa should surrender it? The fact is that a large majority of residents of Goa are quite contented with their present condition. Only a handful of Goans resident in Goa and in India are shouting for the merger of Goa with India. This attitude is not justified and those who are following this course are giving unrighteous lead to India.?85 The missions thus sided with Western imperialism and pooh-poohed India?s aspiration to reclaim national territory under foreign occupation.

    Finally, the Report found no substance in the Christian complaint that the Government of Madhya Pradesh was following a policy of discrimination against Christians. ?The Government of Madhya Pradesh,? it said, ?have throughout followed a policy of absolute neutrality and non-interference in matters concerning religion and allegations of discrimination against Christians and harassment of them by Government officials have not been established. Such allegations have been part of the old established policy of the Missions to overawe local authority and to carry on propaganda in foreign countries.?86

    The Report was quite clear in its larger perceptions. ?Evangelisation in India,? it said, ?appears to be part of the uniform world policy to revive Christendom for re-establishing Western supremacy and is not prompted by spiritual motives. The objective is to disrupt the solidarity of the non-Christian societies, and the mass conversion of a considerable section of Adivasis with this ulterior motive is fraught with danger to the security of the State.?87 The Christian missions were making a deliberate and determined ?attempt to alienate Indian Christian Community from their nation.?88 The Community was most likely to become a victim of foreign manipulations in times of crisis.89 The history of the Christian missions provided ample proof that religion had been used for political purposes.90 Evangelization was not a religious philosophy but a force for politicisation.91 The Church in India was not independent but accountable to those who paid for its upkeep. The concept of ?Partnership in Obedience? which covered the flow of foreign finances to the Church was of a piece with the strategy of Subsidiary Alliances which the East India Company had employed earlier for furthering and consolidating its conquests.92 And conversions were nothing but politics by other means.93

    The recommendations made by the Report followed logically from these perceptions. It recommended that (1) those missionaries whose primary object is proselytisation should be asked to withdraw and the large influx of foreign missionaries should be checked; (2) the use of medical and other professional services as a direct means of making conversions should be prohibited by law; (3) attempts to convert by force or fraud or material inducements, or by taking advantage of a person?s inexperience or confidence or spiritual weakness or thoughtlessness, or by penetrating into the religious conscience of persons for the purpose of consciously altering their faith, should be absolutely prohibited; (4) the Constitution of India should be amended in order to rule out propagation by foreigners and conversions by force, fraud and other illicit means; (5) legislative measures should be enacted for controlling conversion by illegal means; (6) rules relating to registration of doctors, nurses and other personnel employed in hospitals should be suitably amended to provide a condition against evangelistic activities during professional service; and (7) circulation of literature meant for religious propaganda without approval of the State Government should be prohibited.94

  24. R Sajan says:

    I request all netizens to go to Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia. Mallu priests in collaboration with some American Baptists are indulging in anti-India and anti-Hindu propaganda on that site.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_Karnataka
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_India
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa_communal_violence
    Please go to the sites and edit away all anti-India stuff in there.

    If we do not do so, all that faecal matter would remain there as history. Please, please help!!

  25. Patriot says:

    @ Sajan,

    I went to a few of the above links to check and edit, if necessary.

    However, the three links that I checked (India, Karnataka, Orissa) all seem to list facts/actual events. There was no opinion expressed there, only facts and dates summarising the events that have occurred. And, neither are the links disputed as every event/fact seems to be supported by sources.

    So, are you saying that only a rose-tinted vision of India should be allowed to exist? Or do you not understand the concept of Wikipedia?

  26. B Shantanu says:

    Vinay, Sajan and Patriot: Thanks for your comments…

    ***

    @ Sajan: I will have a look at the links but as Patriot says, if they are merely stating facts, you cannot really *edit* them…

    ***

    Separately, many of you will find this two news-snippets interesting:

    Translated bible rocks Jharkhand assembly

    …Chandresh Oraon, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) legislator, moved the motion to stop work in the assembly on Tuesday and demanded a debate on the lines in the translated Bible that call for destroying tribals’ places of worship.

    The book in Kuduk language, one of the main tribal languages in Jharkhand, has been brought out by the Bible Society of India (BSI). The translated version reportedly says: “Destroy the trees and Sarna (tribals’ worship places).”

    …Deputy Chief Minister Stephen Marandi said: “We admit the fault. Wrong translation of Bible has been done by BSI.

    “The state government will recall the translated version of the book and take suitable action against the publisher,” he added.

    Marandi, however, did not clarify what action would be taken against the publishers.

    ***

    From Missionaries apologise to Jharkhand Adivasis

    Ranchi : Following strict warnings from leaders of Sarna Dharm , Church leaders and Bible Soceity of India rendered their apologies for hurting the sentiments of Sarna Dharm followers

    …The Samiti president, Ajay Tirkey, secretary Budhu Bhagat and some others at a press conference in Jhakhra Kumba near Veer Shivaji Chowk on Tuesday evening said the Bible in the name of “Nemha Bible”published by the Bible Society of India,Bangalore,intentionally carried insulting messages against the Sarna believers.

    The Bible written in the Kudukh language, on page 230 , contained abusive language that could disturb the peace of Jharkhand, added the Sarna leaders. They said they were hurt and the government despite their month long request, had done little to assuage their sentiments. They would launch a violent protest if the Bible Society or the Christian leaders did not apologise to the Sarnas.

    Following this warning,The adamant Christian Missionaries who held a deaf ear to all peaceful requests from Sarna leaders were quick yesterday to render apology…

    …In a statement issued today, the church leaders and the Bible Society of India again tendered a public apology for the “objectionable passages” in the Kurukh version of the Bible.

    …This is the second time within a span of seven days that a public apology was issued jointly by the Bible Society of India and church leaders belonging to the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches in Ranchi.

  27. Objective Eye says:

    This short article by Khushwant Singh appeared in Hindustan Times – Delhi edition, on October 4th, 2008.

    With Malice Towards one and ALL – Faith, no more

    RECENT INCIDENTS of violence and vandalism against Christians and their churches deserve to be condemned unreservedly. They have blackened the fair face of Mother India and ruined the reputation of Hindus being the most religiously tolerant people in the world. At the same time, we must take a closer look at people who convert from one faith to another.

    To start with, let it be understood that these days there are no forced conversions anywhere in the world. India is no exception. Those who assert that the poor, innocent and ignorant of India are being forced to accept Christianity are blatant liars. A few, very few educated and well-to-do men and women convert to another faith when they do not find solace in the faith of their ancestors. Examples are to be found in America and Europe of men and women of substance turning from Judaism and Christianity to Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Sikhism.

    There are also men and women who convert to the faith of those they wish to marry We have plenty of cases of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Sikh inter-marriages. However, the largest number of converts come from communities discriminated against. The outstanding example was that of Dalit leader Bhimrao Ambedkar who led his Mahar community to embrace Buddhism because they were discriminated against by upper caste Hindus.

    This is also true of over 90 per cent of Indian Muslims whose ancestors being lower caste embraced Islam which gave them equal status. That gives lie to the often-repeated slander that Islam made converts by the sword.

    An equally large number of people converted out of gratitude. They were neglected, ignorant and poor, when strangers came to look after them, opened schools and hospitals for them, taught them, healed them and helped them to stand on their own feet to hold their heads high, they felt grateful towards their benefactors. Most of them were Christian missionaries who worked in remote villages and brought hope to the lives of people who were deprived of hope.

    To this day Christian missionaries run the best schools, colleges and hospitals in our country They are inexpensive and free of corruption. They get converts because of the sense of gratitude they generate. Can this be called forcible conversion? Why don’t the great champions of Hinduism look within their hearts and find out why so many are disenchanted by their pretensions of piety? Let them first set their own houses in order, purge the caste system out of Hindu society and welcome with open arms al1those who wish to join them.

    No one will then convert from Hinduism to another religion.

  28. B Shantanu says:

    Objective Eye: Thanks for the article…It is exactly these kind of questions that need to be asked…

    Blaming others is always easy…looking within oneself requires courage..

    More on the points raised by Khushwant Singh later…

  29. Indian says:

    @Objective Eye

    Can you please read this link. It describes the translation of tribal language Kuduk in to English. If you are sure of what you are posting and commenting here than read with your own eyes. And copy was translated in Jarkhand Assembly.

    http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=986&Itemid=

  30. Indian says:

    Dont miss this reading! Its by Francois Gautier

    http://dev.hinduismtoday.com/modules/wordpress/hindu-press-international/2008/10/05/journalist-francois-gautier-on-source-of-hindu-christian-violence-in-karnataka/

    “I am also aghast at the one-sided coverage by the Indian media of the Christian- Hindu problem: blasts after blasts have killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in Varanasi, Delhi, Mumbai train blasts, Jaipur, etc. Yet, neither Manmohan Singh nor Sonia Gandhi have pronounced once the word “terrorism.” But when furious Hindus, tired of being made fun of, of witnessing their brothers and sisters converted by financials traps, of seeing a 84-year-old swami and his Mataji brutally murdered, of reading blasphemy about their Gods, vent their anger against churches, many of them makeshifts, the Indian government goes after the soft target which the Hindus are.

  31. Bharat says:

    Beware of Hindu-name covert christians.

    How many Hindus know, Pranoy Roy of infamous anti-Hindu NDTV channel is a convert christian? I doubt not even by few Hindus. We Hindus need to wake up!

    Pranoy Roy profile.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prannoy_Roy
    http://wapedia.mobi/en/Prannoy_Roy
    ———
    Prannoy Roy
    Born Prannoy Roy
    March 7, 1949 (1949-03-07)
    Calcutta, India
    Occupation Journalist
    Spouse Radhika Roy (married 1983)
    Religious belief(s) Christian
    Notable credit(s) World this week,

    ——
    PS. It is not what his faith is our concern, but his actions. His actions are anti-Hindu to the core.

  32. Pratyush says:

    @ Bharat

    So you want everyone to be pro-Hindu? For WHAT GOOD reason?

    And who “Forced” or “Induced” Pranoy to convert?

  33. Bharat says:

    What made Hindus angry in Karnataka

    Neither the Indian press nor the western correspondents bothered to write about what made Hindus angry in Karnataka: Newlife, one important westernfunded missionary centre ( http://www.newlifevoice.org), began making conversions in and around Mangalore by accosting poor people in market areas, or in bus stands, befriending them and then taking them to churches to introduce them to the father.

    Upon introduction they were paid Rs 2,500 per person and then taken to the Velankanni shrine, in Tamil Nadu, where they would get another Rs. 3,000.

    When they finally converted to Christianity by changing the name, they got an incentive of Rs 10,000 onwards.

    Newlife would then give them instructions to abandon wearing tilak on forehead, not to visit and offer prayers at the Hindu temples, replacing the photos and idols of Hindu gods and goddesses with a Cross, etc.

    read here.
    http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=oqi6n5w6kGE%3d&Title=What+made+Hindus+angry+in+Karnataka&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo%3d&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo%3d&SEO=NEW+LIFE&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik%3d

  34. Pratyush says:

    @ Bharat

    Good story, courtesy François Gautier, a known Christian basher.

  35. Pratyush says:

    About François Gautier: So much for his credibility on any of his writings.

    He is a staunch supporter of Hindu nationalist movements and has written many books on Hinduism, Indian politics and Hindutva. Among his books are “Un autre Regard sur l’Inde” (Editions du Tricorne, Geneva-Paris); “Arise O India” (Har Anand 1999), “Cry O my bloved India”, “A Western journalist on India” (Har-Anand 2001), “India’s Self Denial (Editions Auroville Press, 2001) and “Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, a guru of Joy” (India Today Book Club, 2002).

    For more details check the link
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francois_Gautier

  36. Objective Eye says:

    http://www.fact-india.com/news.php

    Check this Link to see where does Francois Gautier’s “neutrality” lie. He is a staunch Hindu to the core, so why use so many of his write ups and links to drive home any point.

    Why doesn’t anyone just use ones own arguments without using already biased links of Francois Gautier. And his links had been used so often in this blog as if it is a neutral write-up.

  37. v.c.krishnan says:

    Dear Sir,
    I do not need a noted Hindu basher and congress psychopant like Khushwant teach me about Hinduism vis a vis Xtianity with respect to service.
    Prior to the advent of the so called great service rendered by the Xtian’s let me tell you there were enough of the rest houses available for people wherever they went.
    The principle of Hindu philosophy as regards is “Athithi Devo Bhava”. Which means that the guest is treated like GOD!
    Even the HATED MANU, of this type of fraternity, has always advised thousands of years ago that guests are to be treated as GODS!
    Schooling. Everybody knew their trade and none was the worse for it. These current do gooders know only one type of education that which the Britishers wanted for their Clerical slave market. Even today they advocate it as being the best without recourse.
    I am reminded of a statement in Pygmalion of GBS in which Eliza Doolitile states to Prof. Higgins “you have now made me so educated that I CANNOT EVEN SELL FLOWERS for a living.
    That is the status many of the poor educated Indians are in now. They will slog for fifteen hours just to avoid their work as techicians, on the farms, as painters, carpenters or anything.
    If this is said, then these do gooders will harp upon the supposed Caste system. A System which these do gooders did not understand but used it for their nefarious activities. We Indians swallowed it hook line and sinker as it came from the mouth of a white man.
    Coming to medicines the first of the best of medical life has been proved to be Ayurveda. Many of the Ayurvedic Doctors were, sadly for the dogooders were not Brahmins, the symbol; of hatred for these do gooders.
    Ayurvedic doctors were not taught to earn money through their treatments. they were to take what was given to them. The true Hippocratic oath was known to them. They did not make money on the illness as most of these do gooders are known for.
    All this hogwash is only an eyewash. The real truth is that history has been distorted to such a great extent that these lies, that as if only these xtians brought caring to this world, exists.
    Let us not lose hope and fight this cancer that is trying to destroy this great way of life as these xtians have done of great civilisations in many parts of the world.
    Many of the bloggers are happy that you are trying to come out with the truth. WE WILL FIGHT THIS DISTORTION and many of us are with you Shantanu Saab!
    Regards,
    vck

  38. B Shantanu says:

    Quick comment…(mainly for Pratyush and Objective Eye): Why do Francois Gautier’s writings on Hinduism make his “facts” suspect?

    The comment/link by Bharat )#33) explicitly mentions place names and currency amounts…

    Is it not worthwhile to get to the bottom of this?

  39. Indian says:

    Objective Eye

    You want hindus to be defenseless! Can I ask why? What kind of arguments and debates you want that is natural?. Why everything which is said against christianity is wrong and everything that is said against Hindus is correct? What you want to suggest us? We have all right to protect our Dharama. Hindus never indulged in cheap conversion profession. Dont you think that is point of admiration rather than defending Christians. By the way we dont have anything against christians but only with the part of them who are engaged in such cheap method of conversion. Forget about indians, even chriatians condemn this kind of conversion activities that is well flourished all over the world.

  40. Harsh says:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    @ Shantanu,

    GREAT! I am happy that you believe in ‘Facts and Statistics’. Be Consistent then, brother, in your approach towards all FACTS and STATISTICS.

    Here’s one for your kind consideration:

    CHRISTIAN POPULATION AS PER CENSUS

    1971 2.59%
    1981 2.43%
    1991 2.32%
    2001 2.04%

    As per Justice Wadhwa Commission Report, Between 1991 to 1998 the Hindu Population rose by 2.52% whereas the Christian population rose by 0.008%.

    ***

    The constitution of India provides ample safeguards against fraudulent conversions. There are enough laws to punish some one involved in forced conversions.

    Several states have passed laws aiming at “preventing conversion through force, fraud and inducement”

    Why then not use the Law to punish if one has found a ‘GENUINE’ case of forced conversion?

    STILL IN THE PAST SIX DECADES OF INDEPENDENT INDIA’S HISTORY NOT A SINGLE CASE OF FORCED OR FRAUDULENT CONVERSION WAS PROVED/PROSECUTED

  41. Objective Eye says:

    IS SPREADING FAITH A CRIME? History Says NO!

    • From India, the Hinduism spread to Malay Peninsula, Cambodia, Annam, Sumatra, Java, Bali and Borneo besides the Indian Sub-continent.

    • From India, the Buddhism spread to China, Korea, Japan, Sri Lanka, Tibet, Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam.

    • From Arabia, the Islam spread to Asia and Africa.

    • From Israel Christianity spread to Europe & America

  42. Pratyush says:

    IS PREACHING ONE’S FAITH TO OTHERS WRONG? NO! All religious scriptures teach it, not just the Bible!

    Its true that the Christians obey Bible’s teachings and hence preach more than others do.

    “May the active be Glorifying God, Arianising all” (Rig Veda 9.63.5)

    “May I speak these blissful words to my own people and the foreigner” (Yajur Veda 26.1-2)

    “For this purpose was I born, and to spread this religion God appointed me”. – Guru Govind Singh

    “You must go out to preach your religion, preach it to every nation under the sun”. – Swami Vivekananda

  43. Pratyush says:

    Missed out this one:

    “Go into all lands and preach this gospel. Tell them that the poor and the lowly, the rich and the high are one”. – The Buddha

  44. Harsh says:

    *** NOTE by MODERATOR ***

    @ Harsh: Please avoid posting the same comment twice on another post…Provide a link if you need to refer to it again.

    Thanks.

  45. v.c.krishnan says:

    Dear Sir,
    I request you to go to the blogspot viveka-jyothi and the letter and resolution drafted by the do gooders with the parish leaders in attendance, which calls for the killing by the poor parishoners, of the Hindu Leader Lakshminanda Saraswathi is available for viewing.
    The actual letter written is available as a scanned copy.
    Regards,
    vck

  46. B Shantanu says:

    @ Harsh (#40): Not sure why you quoted the number of Christians here…The figures are for the population across India…If you look deeper, this is what you find:

    In Tripura, there were no Christians at the time of independence. There are 1,20,000 today, a 90 per cent increase since 1991. The figures are even more striking in Arunachal Pradesh, where there were only 1,710 Christians in 1961, but 1.2 million today, as well as 780 churches!

    (from the same article by Francois Gautier cited by Bharat at # 33)

    Secondly, yes, sure the constitution provides adequate safeguards against fraudulent conversions..Yet both you and I know very well how the legals system works in India…

    Does that mean the people should take the law in their own hands? No.

    Separately do you think that paying people to convert is a good thing? (re. comment # 33)? Does it constitute conversion through inducement?

    If you ask me, the only long-term solution to these issues is for clear-thinking, law-abiding citizens to get into politics and change things…

    Discussions on this blog will not change the reality on the ground…Beyond a point, these are only words…

    ***

    @ Objective Eye and Pratyush: No, spreading/preaching faith is not a crime – and should not be…But we do need some safeguards – which in most cases already exist…

    They have rarely been used/challenged…but that is really not the point…

    The point is that when aggressive evangelical tactics are used… when other faiths are openly denigrated (as in case of New Life publications) and/or inducements are made, then the matter acquires another dimension…

    What do you have to say on the New Life pamphlets/booklets?

    ***

    @ VCK: Do you have the link to the post? Thanks.

  47. v.c.krishnan says:

    Dear Sir,
    This ia an extract from the “Wise and otherwise”, A Salute to Life, by Ms. Sudha Murthy, the wife of Shri. Narayanmurthy, founder of Infosys Ltd.
    This a part of the essay writgten in Chapter 6 “An old Man’s Ageless wisdom”.
    She has travelled all over India in her quest for truth and to use her talents as the founder of the Infosys Foundation, for the betterment of Society and India in particular.
    In the part she travels to Orissa” The least developed state in India”. She goes to a tribal village in a district known as Kalahandi and this is what she has to say as she comes into contact with a tribal elder and her translator conveys to her what the old Tribal “Uneducated Elder” has to say;
    She gives him some notes of money and says that with these papers he can buy “Firewood, Lots of saris, bags of Salt, matchsticks and even A PIECE OF LAND!
    The Tribal elder looks at her sympathetically and says” For this paper people go away from our ancestral land, leave our forests and go to the cities. Have we not led a “Complete Life” without this paper? Our ancestors did.
    We are children of of God, settled happily without this paper. This is God’s land. Nobody owns this land. No river is created by us. No mountain is made by us. The wind does not listen to us. The rain does not ask our permission. These are gifts of God.
    How can we ‘sell’ or ‘buy’ land? I do not understand. When nothing is yours, then how can you make such transactions? The little paper of yours can turn our lives upside down.
    The question she raises; Who is wise? The old man or us with our fingers on the pulse of the internet!
    This is the quintessence of the way of life in India. Call it Hinduism if you want it.
    These are the same words that an Old Native India Chief of the US natives asked a representative of the government when they wanted to accquire the land that belonged to the NATIVES BY HOOK OR BY CROOK.
    Has all this education really given us a better life? The richest country in the world is in dolddrums and people very “Educated” are living on the streets and in Tents, with their lives turned upside down.
    If the paper they held in the form of degrees was so powerful why is it happening?>
    These are people like doctors, Teachers, Executives and the likes. They were educated; They were leaders in the sense of the world, then why it did happen to them? If they could not guide themselves how can they guide others?Today we have the dogooders come on the scene who promise a better life with education! Can it always be true?
    They are supposed to provide better health. By the way the Tribal Elder wasa supposed to be more than a hundred yearts old without a single strand of white hair. May be genetic disorder prevented his hair from becoming white!That is why Jesus said, Remove the beam in your eye before you remove the mote in the otherman’s eye.
    Conversions do not give solutions. Conversions only lead top heartburns. People live a way of life they like.
    Leave the people alone. Let them live their lives.
    Nobody reqiures salvation. If they need it they will find it.
    Live and let live. Leave one to his own belief. If they are condemned to go to anywhere let them be. Leave them alone.
    Then we do not need a new political party. We need acceptance of everyway of life.
    No only one way of life.
    Regards,
    vck

  48. Patriot says:

    We have heard a lot about Newlife and their blasphemous writings and pamphlets about hinduism and hindu gods – now:

    1. I presume all of this happened in Karnataka
    2. There is a BJP government in power in Karnataka
    3. I believe that the BJP claims that it is ready to act in the hindu interest?
    4. So, then why were all the pastors of newlife not arrested and put behind bars? and, all the centres shut down. Clearly, they were violating the law and could be punished by the govt?
    5. No, instead the lumpens were let loose. Why? Is that a tacit admission that the BJP does not have the guts to take on egregious conversions in its own name? That it does not have the guts to provide law and order (for which it is ready to blame other parties at the drop of a hat).

    All those supporting the lumpen Bajrang Dal actions in Karnataka need to answer the above questions first. Else, you are no better than the islamic terrorists that you denounce.

    And, you know what? If the govt had followed the law, the established Christian organisations in India (both protestant and catholic) would have joined hands with the govt and said that yes, this was correct. They can not stand these aggressive evangelicals and born-again christians either, and believe that they give their community a bad name. Instead what happened? You have lumpens running riots and the entire christian community crying foul and India being rubbished on the world stage.

    Think about it.

  49. Indian says:

    Conversion has nothing to do with Karnataka or BJP or Hindus. It is wilddpread all over the world. I agree if converson is taking place where people has no religion of their own. But here they are going to everyone even those who have their own religion.

    “Lumpen” Who?those who killed swami? Why did that lumpen did not go to govt complaing about Swami? Why do they have to kill someone? Law applies to all not to any single community. If doing riots is as much condemnable,than killing is something more than riots. If this peaceloving evengalists is provoking killing and riots than it is not peace loving org at all.

  50. Patriot says:

    @Indian:
    “Conversion has nothing to do with Karnataka or BJP or Hindus. It is wilddpread all over the world. I agree if converson is taking place where people has no religion of their own. But here they are going to everyone even those who have their own religion.”

    Says who? Who gives you the right to decide where conversions may take place and where they may not? The constitution of India clearly says that every citizen of India has freedom of religion (including the right to change or convert). So, who are you to take away the rights enshrined in the constitution.

  51. Patriot says:

    @ VCK:

    “The Tribal elder looks at her sympathetically and says” …….. How can we ’sell’ or ‘buy’ land? I do not understand. When nothing is yours, then how can you make such transactions? The little paper of yours can turn our lives upside down.”

    Thanks for sharing this with us. Lovely.

  52. R R says:

    Each year, the Government of India’s Ministry of Home Affairs releases a report (URL below) entitled, “Receipt of Foreign Contributions by Voluntary Associations.

    Following are the Associations which receive the funds
    Gospel Fellowship Trust India, USA — $60,305,263
    Gospel for Asia, USA — $36,100,000
    Plan International, UK — $29,257,895
    Foundation Vicent E Ferrer, Alicante, Spain — $27,428,947
    Christian Aid, UK — $21,094,737
    Miseror Mozartstrasse, Germany — $20,457,895
    Foundacion Vicente Ferrer, Madrid, Spain — $20,118,421
    Oxfam, UK — $19,721,053
    NOVIB, Netharlands — $19,321,053
    Deptt for International Devpt (DFID), UK — $15,723,684
    Kindemothilfe, Germany — $14,318,421
    Save the Children Fund, UK — $13,594,737
    Manos Unidas, Spain — $13,050,000
    Missio, Germany — $12,900,000
    Population Service International USA — $12,826,316
    Total funds sent to India: — $336,218,421

    Most of the donations go toward relief work, rural development, medicine and education. “Maintenance of priests/preachers/other religious functionaries” is 15th on the list of purposes, receiving $21 million dollars of all foreign funding.

    Of the fifteen top donor agencies given eight are Christian, seven are secular and none are Hindu.

    Following are the examples of intent given by these organizations themselves. Gospel Missions of India (GMI), “stays abreast of the work of the missionaries and ministries in India to ensure that gifts are faithfully invested for the Lord’s work”. Gospel for Asia is a Texas-based Christian missionary organization whose, “Focus and goal as a ministry is to reach the 2.7 billion people in the 10/40 window who have never heard about the love of God. In India alone, there are over 500,000 villages with no Gospel witness.” These paragraphs are self explanatory about the real intent which is proselytisation through use of these funds. It is not service for the sake of service as the ground reality in Bharat shows.

    The report is available on http://mha.gov.in/fcra/annual/ar2005-06.pdf

  53. B Shantanu says:

    @ vck: These concluding lines from your comment above (#47) need to be repeated and emphasised, again and again…

    Conversions do not give solutions. Conversions only lead to heartburns. People live a way of life they like.

    Leave the people alone. Let them live their lives.

    Nobody reqiures salvation. If they need it they will find it.

    Live and let live. Leave one to his own belief. If they are condemned to go to anywhere let them be. Leave them alone.

    Then we do not need a new political party.

    We need acceptance of everyway of life. No only one way of life.

    Superb.

  54. Patriot says:

    @Shantanu and VCK:

    I don’t think you guys understand the spirit and emotions behind proselytisation by Christians (mainly catholics and born-agains) – their gospel tells them to go out and spread the word to those who have not heard it. Their gospel exhorts them to try and help redeem people in the name of the saviour. Their gospel tells them that only those who believe in the lord will be saved, and everyone else condemned to purgatory and it is their christian DUTY to save others’ souls.

    Have you ever been to a catholic church mass? Among the prayers they offer to the lord on a daily basis is one which says “We pray, O Lord, that those who do not know you may get to know you and be saved for eternal life” (or words to that effect).

    So, Proselytisation is a very active element of the Christian faith – and under the Indian constitution, it is considered to be part of our religious freedoms – to preach and convert.

  55. Tatichawla says:

    Dear Patriot

    If what you say is true then there is case to reconsider such a constitutional guarantee. Any activity that cannot be reasonably addressed in the spirit of secular democracy – to which every religion in India must subordinate – must be curtailed in the interests of secularism and democracy.

    Your democratic right is to practise your religion within the golden rule of ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ – which means we cannot have a situation where money and organisation (funded in proselytizers’ cases by foreign organistions) engages in a ‘battle for souls’ which can easily spill over into violence – Unless you feel that teh Hindus should also pour money and organisation into the conversion and re-conversion game which is cutting through India’s social fabric.

    There is a fundamental disease that needs to be identified and treated – and unchecked politicking of a religious kind clearly gnaws at our secular democracy’s roots

  56. Indian says:

    @Patriot and others

    If constitution is providing this right, than why do Hindus, Sikhs, Jain, Parsis, Jews, Buddhists are not engaged in such low activity? It is true that their gospel openly says that, but christians too have not understood this gospel. It was meant for those who are religiousless in conducts, those who are not fearing God. Constitutional Privileges are not for taking advantages they are their for freedom. That is Live and Let Live others. I have personally come across this prosylitisation people. I know their mind and behaviour. And at the end I proved them I am superior in my conducts and behaviour than what they were preaching me. They just look at loop holes in our govt and finds that hinduism is not working. Actually Hinduism is at its best, its govt who is not god fearing and religious( religion doesnot meant perticular faith, it should work on the ground of humanity, which is already describd in hinduism and it also covers other religions) not working for the people.

    I agree with VCK has mentioned in his comment.

  57. Nishka says:

    Christianity is just a front for neo colonialism. Look around you.
    Communism is a way of cleaning house before introducing christianity

  58. Patriot says:

    @Nishka:
    “Christianity is just a front for neo colonialism. Look around you.”

    What a wonderful, wonderful comment. And, how this for a companion comment:

    Hinduism is a just a front for women-bashing and caste-based slavery. Look around you.

    @Tati Chawla:
    Yes, indeed, proselytisation is a small but key part of the gospel of christians. Catholics take it seriously, protestants and lutherans generally can not be bothered about it, born-again sects are the biggest evangelisers.

    You raise some good points and I will express my opinions on them:

    1. Does the Constitution need to be changed to take care of evangelising christians?

    No, we have sufficient safeguards and laws to ensure that conversions do not take place due to force. The key is to apply the law when the evidence exists (as the sangh parivar claims it does and in abundance), and get these organisations proscribed and the pastors thrown into jail, instead of going about breaking prayer halls and raping women. Given the nature of evidence that the lumpen Bajrang Dal is talking about, this should be very simple – the people of this country need to think very carefully about why is it that they are not the legal route? What prevents them from going to the law? Is the evidence manufactured, then?

    2. Is money as an inducement for conversions “right” and legal?

    Money or other goods, as an inducement for conversions, is illegal under our laws. And, this is difficult to prove. But, the sangh parivar has been exercised over the morality of the issue – so let us examine that separately.

    If a man is starving, and someone offers him a steady income on the condition that the converts, and he converts – is that immoral behaviour on part of the hungry man? In a previous post, a blogger mentioned about regular salaries, etc, which are higher than the prevailing local rates as an inducement.

    How can you condemn or criticise the man who converts to save himself and his family from hunger, from poverty, to live a life of greater dignity? Especially so, when his alleged *co-religionists* did not do anything to help him with his poverty, either before or after the evangelists arrived?

    And, would I condemn the evangelists who are using money to add to their flock? If I look at the overall picture, I would not – because they are providing a livelihood to people without one, dignity to people without, and a chance of a brighter life to their children because the parent(s) are earning now. So, what if this happens under a christian umbrella instead of a hindu one? The hindus were not bothered about their less-priviledged and hungry brethren before the evangelists arrived.

    And, finally, do you think conversions that happen due to money are true conversions to a faith? Of the heart? If not, then why are you concerned? And, if yes, then also why are you concerned? Doesn’t sanatana dharma say there are many routes to God – surely christianity is then one of them? So, why are you bothered about what labels people stick on themselves, if you are a true sanatana dharmi?

    Loads of contradictions here, folks.

    Finally, we have so many people on this blog and other blogs exercised and agitated about their precious hindus being converted – the question for them is what have you folks done to eradicate the caste system, to give these downtrodden people a chance to live their lifes with dignity, without hunger and a future for their children?

    3. “unchecked politicking of a religious kind clearly gnaws at our secular democracy’s roots”

    I agree with you fully on this – Politicians have used religion for their nefarious purposes, and religion has only been too happy to mix up with politics.

    If we are to truly establish a secular republic, then we have to look to France as the guiding example. And, ditch the definition of Nehru who say “secularim means equal respect for all religions”. What crap.

    Secularism means the separation of the state from religion, and that the state will not recognise/respect any religion as a state religion and will not allow any interference of religion in state matters.

    That is the goal that we have to aim for. Get the state out of religion (haj subsidies, temple trusts, etc) and get all religious matters out of state (no hindu rashtra, etc)

    Cheers

  59. Tatichawla says:

    Hi Patriot,
    Thanks for your views. I have one important point which I want you to re-consider
    You say if a man is starving and is given food (or a job) with strings attached that he converts there is nothing inherently wrong. While the poor man who sells his ‘soul’ or vote for economic gain is not to be judged or blamed this is hardly a moral or ethical act on part of the one offering help with strings attached. To justify this as good since the poor man’s co-religionists have not been quicker of the mark in offering this inducement to stay or convert is hardly much of an argument when this is the State’s duty to offer employment and uplift out of economic backwardness. We cannot and must not view the problem of economic or social backwardness from Hindu vs. Christian vs. Muslim perspective. Such divisiveness that leads to conflict and competitiveness is hardly conducive to any form of social and community-and-community harmony.

    Secularism as in separation of religion and state (as you rightly point out the example of France) is ONLY way to protect a secular democracy. In fact that’s what secularism has always meant till vested vote-bank politics re-interpreted Nehru’s ‘equal respect’ definition. To my mind religions are by design divisive. Sanatana Dharma historically wasn’t really so only because it practised an inclusiveness of all religions in India which it saw as the starting point for sublimation and transcendence into the spiritual. Spirituality is by definition non-divisive seeking the One which cannot be named or labeled – its beyond the mind in any case! One only needs to check out spiritual traditions from virtually any source to realize this! But once organization and political ambition make an entry the transcendent spiritual is short-circuited. Well-meaning supporters of VHP, BD would do well not let Sanatana Dharma go the way other religions and remain what it was prior to the 20th Century.

    As to what ‘Hindus’ have not done or done regarding their caste system a little introspection/investigation will show it is not so much a Hindu problem as an Indian problem – of racism – and its something which is being addressed by the Constitution and by increasing use of reason and mental maturity. Converting to other systems – as a counterpoint I could call them medieval religions – is simply not a mature solution. Casteism or racism needs to be grown out of through education, scientific temper and maturity – I don’t really see any role for divisive exclusivist religions in this honestly.

  60. Patriot says:

    Dear Tati Chawla,

    Sorry for the delayed response, but I missed this somehow.

    “While the poor man who sells his ’soul’ or vote for economic gain is not to be judged or blamed this is hardly a moral or ethical act on part of the one offering help with strings attached. To justify this as good since the poor man’s co-religionists have not been quicker of the mark in offering this inducement to stay or convert is hardly much of an argument when this is the State’s duty to offer employment and uplift out of economic backwardness. ”

    You make some very interesting points in a cogent manner. Let me explain my position on the above points:

    First, I do not accept or believe that it is the duty of the state/government to offer employment to the poor or uplift them out of poverty. I think the govt is singularly ill-equipped to carry out poverty alleviation and the last 60 years should prove this adequately – the only people who have gotten rich out of poverty alleviation schemes have been the brokers, agents, politicians and bureaucrats. Not the poor. So, we discard this as a basis for arguments. Personally, I believe that the state’s duty is to provide law and order, an efficient justice system and a proper “environment” for individuals to flourish. Then, they will take care of it themselves. You should visit http://freedomteam.in for more thoughts on the role of the state.

    Second, when a man “sells his soul for bread” (to paraphrase your remark), I am neither saying this is good nor am I condemning it. I am only saying that I can see why a man would do that and therefore, he should not be condemned for it. If a person did not lend him a helping hand in the past to help him rise out of his poverty, then he certainly does not have the right to criticize him, when the poor man makes the effort himself.

    “We cannot and must not view the problem of economic or social backwardness from Hindu vs. Christian vs. Muslim perspective. Such divisiveness that leads to conflict and competitiveness is hardly conducive to any form of social and community-and-community harmony.”

    Third, I am not viewing social backwardness from a religious perspective, at all. On the contrary, I am saying that if a man in poverty is being helped by someone, and the man accepts that help and acknowledges the price that he pays for that help, then it is a decision the individual is taking and no one else has any locus standi in the matter.

    Fourth, I am saying that conversions through inducements (cash or kind) are ILLEGAL under Indian law. So, people who are objecting to these illegal conversions only have to provide the facts and evidence to the police(and I am assuming that there is preponderance of evidence as everyone seems to know illegal conversions are happening) and get the perpetrators arrested and the organisations proscribed. What can be simpler than that? Why is there a need to go around killing people, raping women and burning houses?

    “Secularism as in separation of religion and state (as you rightly point out the example of France) is ONLY way to protect a secular democracy.

    I agree completely with you on this and I am glad to find at least one voice here who shares my thoughts on how a modern country is built.

    RE: Sanatana Dharma – I have come to the conclusion that sanatana dharma died some time ago. What we currently have is a jingoistic and bastardised version of what our sages and philosophers created/wrote. There is no “other” in Sanatana Dharma, which the lumpen “hindus” keep forgetting.

    “As to what ‘Hindus’ have not done or done regarding their caste system a little introspection/investigation will show it is not so much a Hindu problem as an Indian problem – of racism – and its something which is being addressed by the Constitution and by increasing use of reason and mental maturity”

    I truly hope so that this is being addressed, but what I read in a daily basis in my newspapers tells me a different story. IMO, the only solution is increasing urbanisation and cosmopolitan cities, where you go into the melting pot.

    “Converting to other systems – as a counterpoint I could call them medieval religions – is simply not a mature solution. ”

    I tend to agree with the above, but when jobs/education/healthcare comes into the picture, allied with a “different system”, then the issue becomes more complicated.

    Thanks once again for your cogent arguments.

    Cheers

  61. B Shantanu says:

    Patriot/TatiChawla…Thanks for a good, engaging debate…

    I would just like to add that finding evidence that can stand in a court of law will be extremely difficult if not impossible in most of these cases of inducement (since the inducements are often of the “soft” kind – free education, free medical care, a “soft” loan etc)

    But you are right..the government can only do so much and if Hindus are really so concerned, they should all make strenuous efforts to ensure development of these regions and the upliftment of these people… (and provide evidence of illegal conversions where they can)

    I should gently remind everyone that Swami Laxmanananda was doing exactly what I have mentioned above – i.e. devoting his life to the betterment of tribals in Kandhamal..and there is at least one other organisation that is doing excellent work in this area: Ekal Vidyalaya.
    http://www.ekalindia.org/ekal_new/index.php

    ***

    All: Pl. do follow the thread above…I feel Patriot and Tatichawla have made a lot of very good points here which should be considered in this debate…

  62. Bharat says:

    Read the online free book.

    Catholic Ashrams
    Sannyasins or Swindlers
    http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ca/index.htm

  63. Bharat says:

    Kandhamal students’ body demands to stop conversion in the district

    October 13, 2008
    OdishaToday

    Some excerpts.
    Berhampur (Orissa) : The Kandhamal Chatra Sangharsa Samiti on Sunday demanded to stop religious conversion allegedly being done by various NGOs in the district.

    The students have stated that Swami Laxmanananda had served in the Kandhamal district for nearly 45 years and had brought several changes, particularly in the field of education and in social change.

    On the other hand, the missionaries were instigating the minority community people to convert the innocent tribal people and were torturing them they alleged.

    They further alleged that these missionaries were taking away the lands of the tribal people and were building the churches in those occupied lands.

    more here.

  64. Indian says:

    I agree that Hindus has to put some efforts to ensure development of their community, If they are concerend about conversion. ekalindia.org is very good site. Thanks for the link. Every temple should also come out with something that can help the development of community in a manner that they one can take pride being a Hindu or Indian.

    Finding solution rather than protesting is the best option.

  65. Bharat says:

    Most Oriya newspapers have reported that Congress Rajya Sabha MP, RK Nayak was involved in the killing of Swami laxmananda in Kandamahal. In fact, he was appointed to Rajya Sabha by Sonia Gandhi’s Congress in 2004 even though IB had an adverse report on him.
    ====

    Cong MP suspected behind VHP leader’s murder

    …killing of its leader Swami Lakshamananda Sarwasati was hatched in the presence of Congress Rajya Sabha member R.K. Nayak’—

    ——
    Maoists were hired to kill Laxmanananda: Police
    Thu, Oct 16 11:06 PM
    Bhubaneswar, Oct 16 (PTI)

    In a major breakthrough the Orissa police today claimed that the mastermind behind VHP leader Laxamananda Saraswati’s killing had been identified as a group had hired the Maoists to execute the crime. “Maoists were given money to train certain youths of a particular community to eliminate Saraswati,” Inspector General (IG) of Police, crime branch, Arun Ray told PTI asserting the mastermind of the killings had been identified.

    read here and here.

  66. Patriot says:

    I am sure people will excuse me if I do not believe anything that the Orissa Police says. Their credibility is sub-zero if that is possible.

    I was talking to one of the MLAs from the state and the stories that he told me about what is going on with the administration are hair-raising. I am unable to share those stories here, as they would be considered slander as I have no proof.

    But, please let us not talk about the Orissa police – when they have actually managed to convict the perps in the courts, then we will talk about it – right now, this is all hearsay and innuendo.

  67. Indian says:

    Truth takes it own course. Same happened in the case of Mr. Modi.

  68. Harsh says:

    Isn’t RSS the one to be banned? Isn’t it the real organization and Bajrang Dal just a name for hiding behind a faceless group?

    Checkout this YouTube video.
    http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=czIu0QynUuM

  69. Bharat says:

    Watch the barbaric killing of Swamiji and His deciples.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXHW5ncmg5k

    Brutally killing someone, who’s about 80 years old and doing social-educational services for over 50 years to the poor people. Time has come to remove these missionary poisons out of our country. Enough is enough.

    Such brutal crime done to a Hindu Dharmacharya, that too on Sri Krishna Janmashtami day, cannot be tolerated at any cost. There are no repents for such barbaric acts, but these barbarians are aggressively propagating lies and frauds on the Hindus and India.

  70. Bharat says:

    Also Watch about India and hinduism, and aggressive christian conversions

    Invasion Thru Conversion part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0drCTLO5hWA

    Invasion Thru Conversion part-2

  71. Indian says:

    Bharat thanks for your comment.

    Imagine if this would have done to any christian saint on christmas. What would have been the reaction of our govt and people. They would have tear that person or org involved. But here it is hindu saint so nobody has interest init. Everyone is just interested on attack on churches without condemning or asking serious kind of investigation on swani’s killing. Even if police says culprits are arrested and confessed. They will have reason, that may be police is also involved or forced confession. Too much! Hindus have been always kind to all reigion and this are the results of being very nice and accomodated. Thank you christians and thank you Muslims for showering so much love on us! God is there he wiil look at my country and take care of my country . Dont worry my brothers!. Satyameva-jayate!

    Jai Hind!

  72. Patriot says:

    @ Bharat:
    How pathetic – showing rabble rousing video as proof that the christians killed laxmananda? Clearly you need to do a course in jurisprudence.

    @Shantanu:
    Do you want to allow hate mongering videos on your blog?

    @Indian:
    Yeah, Modi – you just proved my point about justice in India. But, I do not think that you will get it.

  73. Harsh says:

    Aren’t we Hindus hypocrites too?

    When we Hindus practice slavery in caste system, it is simply “division of labour” and Manu is just a great “social architect”. When Hindus kill others it is “patriotism”, defending the culture blah blah…

    Moreover, can someone help me understand Why does our king of gods send cute girls to sadhoos to break their meditation?

    Does a god do things that are against moral behavior that too to a person who is meditating? There are many such questions that bother me about Hinduism. Let’s not have a holier than thou attitude.

  74. B Shantanu says:

    @ Patriot: I will have a look at the links….(I am sure you realise that the videos are not hosted on my blog but on YouTube)

    ***

    @ Harsh: A quick response to your comment…(I may move it to another thread on Hinduism)

    1. No sensible person today (or Hindu religious leader) condones or advocates the caste system – regardless of how it may have started. Same for Manu. There are quite a few posts on this blog on the caste system. I would encourage you to read them and we can then have a discussion (You may want to start with these two articles.

    2. Re. Indra (also – wrongly – known as “King of Gods”), Indra is the Lord of the “Devas”. The word “Deva” does not lend itself to straightforward unambiguous translation (as in “God”). “Deva” is closer in meaning to a “celestial or super-natural” being. Similarly “Asura” is not a “demon” (although it is routinely – and wrongly – translated as such). It is closer in meaning to “not-Deva” (more a “neutral” rather than a “negative” connotation).

    In a similar vein, “Dharma” is not religion.

    As for the story of Indra and Vishwamitra, I would encourage you to read a bit more on this and other sacred stories in Hinduism…In our quest to make them easy to digest (a la Amar Chitra Katha), we sometimes simplify them beyond reason…

    You may know that Vishwamitra was not a “sadhoo” but a king (Kaushik) who turned to penance and meditation after an encounter with Rishi Vashishtha.

    As for the episode of Apsara and Vishwamitra, there are a few different versions of the story…(two examples below):

    1. Indra sent Menaka to the Rishi alarmed by the severity of his penance and his austerities…

    2. Indra sent Menaka to distract Rishi Vishwamitra because he was trying to create a “Pratisrushti”

    Regardless, the union of Rishi Vishwamitra and Menaka led to the birth of Shakuntala, mother of King Bharat – after whom our land is named.

    See also: “Hindu”, India and “Bharat” – The Story behind Word Origins

  75. v.c. krishnan says:

    Dear Shantanu,
    The old good game is back. There is nothing to take on “Hindus” with. let us berate them with “Non existent, misunderstood” stick of the “Caste”.
    Please do not waste your time and the precious place on this blog to repeatedly talking about a dead horse.
    If people have some amount of “Horsesense” I am sure they should have understood by now what the Caste system was all about, and how useful it has been for the “Peaceful religion”!!
    If people really want to know about the true “Sanatana Dharma”, they should first get rid of their backgrund of being taught by people of the “Peaceful religion”!!
    and then after cleansing of their mind if they apply their thought process they will understand the truth of what you want to say about “Sanatana Dharma”.
    I was taught by the people of the “Peaceful religion”!! and then I went to cleanse my mind of the cobwebs and today I know what my way of life is worth.
    It does not depend on the media or otherwise. Think for yourself as this “Dharma” says and you will understand it.
    Any amount of shadows will not make substance!!
    All these berators know is “Bajrang dal” “RSS” and now “Modi”. Do they really know anything of thse organisations other than what is spouted by the “Nehruvians”, the Stephenians” and the “St. colleges and schools?
    Regards,
    vck

  76. Bharat says:

    @Patriot #73

    You can do two things, either don’t watch videos and internet, TVs etc, or ban internet (and all hosting sites like youtube etc), TVs etc.

    You have your opinions, so as others; if you have freedom of expressions, so as others. If opinions that don’t serve your interests are pathetic, then your opinions too pathetic for others, whose interests don’t serve.

    Why not you voice your opinion against christians and sickular brigades, who put so many fabricated videos of Hindu dharma-bashing,Hindu-bashing, RSS-bashing? Why do you expect Hindus to practice restraints, and anti-Hindu forces to abuse, insults, demonise Hindus nationally and internationally?

    Live and let live. You (and christian missionaries) live peacefully and allow Hindus to live peacefully. If you (and chrsitian missionaries) take away peace of Hindus, you (or christian missionaries) can’t expect to live peacefully. Hindus will not be the first to hurt anyone’s peace, they will retaliate to defend and retaliate strongly to defend the way US did on Japan after Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour.

  77. Bharat says:

    How Christian is it for Indians to kill Indians?

    …irrefutable evidence of the manner in which the USA based Joshua Project 2000 and Beyond, co-ordinates global Christian missionary activity, which has been designed specifically for targeting 600,000 villages of rural India.

    …UK based World Vision, Christian Solidarity Worldwide, CARE International, Christian Aid and it’s subsidiary, Dalit Solidarity Network, along with German based Konrad Adenauer Foundation and US based World Evangelical Alliance as some of the largest organisations that support this activity.

    …The scale of conversions taking place in India today, through the operations and activities of a globally co-ordinated network of Christian Church groups, supported and funded by external political and religious institutions can have enormous social consequences for India in the future.

    http://www.theindianstar.com/index.php?udn=2008-10-03&uan=7824

  78. Bharat says:

    VHP shows copy of ‘death resolve’
    OUR CORRESPONDENT

    Ranchi, Oct. 19: State unit of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) today claimed to have obtained documentary evidence that indicates involvement of the church in the murder of Swami Laxmananda Saraswati and his four associates at Kandhamal in Orissa on August 23.

    Unit president, R.S. Rungta, made the copy the document available to the journalists and said: “the murder was pre-planned and was committed by missionaries involved in converting the religion of poor by way of allurement.”

    The document is the copy of resolution taken in Parish meeting organised at Batikala village of Kandhamal district on May 25 at 11am under the chairmanship of a Father Prafulla Kumar Nayak.

    Original resolution was written in Oriya, but VHP had printed the Devanagri transcript below and also translated the document in Hindi and English languages.

    The document, signed by Ranjeet Kumar Nayak and 14 others, indicates that the missionaries had planned to eliminate the saint on the direction of Bishop, who was finding the saint a hurdle before the expansion of Christianity among Hindu tribals.

    The document also indicates that the date of murder, August 23, the foundation day of VHP and Janmastami, was also pre-planned. It also mentions that the missionaries had also decided to conduct “Christian victory celebration” in all the Abbey circles of the Parish after the successful completion of the task.

    Rungta said the copies of the document was made available to the chief minister of Orissa Naveen Patnaik, and was being released throughout the country to expose the “pseudo secular” forces who hold Bajrang Dal and VHP responsible for the violence in Orissa and other parts of the country.

    The document has come at a time when it is being said that rebels were involved in murder of the saint and many political parties were demanding ban on the activities of VHP and Bajrang Dal for their involvement in attack on churches throughout the country.

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081020/jsp/jharkhand/story_9992866.jsp

  79. B Shantanu says:

    @ Bharat: Thanks for your follow-up comments…

    ***

    @ Patriot: I saw the video link posted by Bharat…You may call the video “rabble-rousing” but I feel people should be allowed to form their own judgement…

  80. Objective Eye says:

    Those Who Have Eyes Will See.

    Just like RSS, VHP, and others, there are some in this blog too who have been incessantly crying foul saying Christians are ‘converting forcibly’ (whatever that means) and ‘converting through inducements’. Even after knowing the fact that there are no forcible/induced conversions happening, some in Hindu fold find it difficult to accept the fact that people are actually leaving Hinduism on their own.

    The latest issue of OUTLOOK Magazine (Oct 27, 2008) has testimonies of a few such converts. I am pasting them for one to judge objectively.

    I, The Convert
    ANAND MAHADEVAN,
    Editor of Outlook Business

    My conversion was not a change of religion; it was a change of heart. I was born a Brahmin and am the grandson of a priest whom I dearly loved. I am educated and my current professional standing indicates that I am reasonably intelligent. I am also affluent and my income would put me distinctly in the upper middle class bracket. I guess that would make me high-caste, rich and smart. In other words, I am not a tribal, or poor or dim-witted. And yet, I chose to become a follower of Jesus Christ.

    The world would call me a convert to Christianity. I have no problems with that, though I see my faith more as a relationship with God through Jesus Christ than as a religion. And for the record, I can truthfully claim that no one financially induced or threatened or deceived me into converting to Christianity.

    I am fiercely proud of my national identity as an Indian and I am completely at peace with my cultural identity as a Hindu. I retain the name my parents gave me. My wife, who also shares my faith, continues to go by her Hindu name. We have two children and we have given both distinctly Hindu names. In fact, many of my colleagues and acquaintances who may happen to read this column are likely to be surprised. They have no inkling about my faith, for I generally don’t go about announcing it. But if someone does ask me the reason behind the joy and hope that is ever present in my life, I am always delighted to share it with them.

    I write this piece to make one point—that my conversion was not a change of religion but a change of heart. To explain this, I need to go back to my childhood in Chennai, similar to that of so many other Tamil Brahmin boys like me. My grandfather, every bit the virtuous priest, had enormous influence over me. I absolutely adored him and as a toddler, always clung to him. He too loved me to a fault. There was no wish of mine that he would not rush to fulfill. But even in my early, formative years I was unable to relate to the religion he fervently practiced. Later, in my school days, I once spent my summer holidays with him in Trichy. Memories of dawn walks with him, for the ritualistic dip in the Cauvery river, cow in tow, are still fresh in my memory. I learnt many shlokas, some of which I still remember. But I never understood any of it and none of it helped me connect with God.

    When I was 19, a Christian friend with whom I used to play cricket invited me to his house for prayer. If he had invited me to a pub, or party, I would have gone too. At his home, he and his sister prayed for me. It was a simple yet delightful conversation with God that lasted all of five minutes. I don’t remember it verbatim, but they articulated a prayer of blessing on my life, future, career and family. It was a simple affair—no miracles, no angels visiting. All they did was utter a deep human cry out to the creator God and His only son Jesus Christ. When they said Amen, I felt in my heart a desire to follow Jesus.

    It was a faith encounter with God that I shall not even attempt to understand, rationalise or explain. I simply accept it. It is my faith. It is what I choose to believe. That evening I did not change my religion, for in reality I had none. Hinduism was my identity, not my religion. It still is.

    The Christianity I acquired that evening is not a religion. On the contrary, it is an intensely intimate relationship with Jesus. Over the past fifteen years, I have come to know this Jesus even closer. I know Him as the pure and sinless Son of a Holy God. And I know Him as a dear friend to whom I pray and talk to every day—about my career, my dreams, successes, failures, finances and even my sexuality.

    If I read a good book, watch a good movie (Rock On is terrific, mate), or eat a good meal at a new restaurant, I would naturally tell my friends about it.In Jesus, I have discovered a truly amazing friend, guide, leader, saviour and God. How can I not tell all my friends about Him? And if anyone does listen and he too comes to believe in Jesus, I am delighted. The world would call it a conversion; I call it a change of heart, like mine.

    But I would never force anyone to listen to me, leave alone financially induce, coerce or con him into believing. That to me is pointless and against the very grain of my faith. But I do have a constitutional right to practice my faith and to preach it without deception, force or bribery. It pains to see such basic rights of mankind being cruelly violated every day in this great Hindu nation.

    God bless India.

    ANURADHA RAMAN
    When change of religion was all about a deeply personal choice.
    If one goes by popular perception, it’s only people belonging to the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes who are lured by Christianity. The notion is that they give up their religion to break free from the Hindu caste system and nurture the hope that a better life awaits them after they convert. But it’s not just the oppressed classes who are drawn to Jesus. Highly educated and well-placed upper-caste Hindus and Muslims have also risked censure from their immediate family and community to take the crucial plunge.
    They all have their own reasons for giving up one religion for another. As Jesuit sociologist Rudolf C. Heredia puts it in his book, Changing Gods, Rethinking Conversion in India: “Conversion is a question of personal choice, it involves a rejection, a change or an adaptation of one’s identity. A complex set of motivations are involved. The change is the result of a personal quest, which may be more than a religious or spiritual one. Positively, this is experienced as a liberation; negatively, it could be an escape.”
    So what is it like to switch from one god to another? Outlook spoke to some unlikely converts:

    SYED AINUL HADEED, 38
    Filmmaker is touched by the Word

    “I was born in a rich Muslim family of Pune. My parents belonged to families with a rich religious heritage. When I was barely four, my parents separated. My mother and I moved in with my aunt in Hyderabad. From an early age I was taught Islamic traditions and I also learnt to read the Quran in Arabic. However, I went to schools run by the Jesuits and did well both in studies and sports. My mother and I shifted to Mumbai when I was in the sixth standard.

    “It was during this period that I began carefully studying the Quran. However, I found I could not digest the teachings. Yet I did not stop believing in God’s existence. This was in the late 1980s. My teenage years and early adult life were difficult—failed relationships, financial hardships and my father’s death made me morose. At one point I even decided to end my life by consuming mercury. Luckily, I survived.

    “It was all very strange. On the one hand I was attempting suicide, but at another level, I had an out-of-body experience. I felt my spirit drift to my old school—to the feet of Jesus Christ. I could feel his presence. After a year, I visited the school and saw the following words engraved on the pedestal on which a statue of Jesus stands to this day: ‘I am the resurrection and the Life.’ I believe the Holy Spirit had led me to Christ. Today, I am serving the Lord through the gifts that he has endowed me with.

    “Naturally, some Muslim friends did not approve of my giving up Islam. The clerics questioned my change of faith. However, this only strengthened my resolve to study the Bible, the Quran, and the Hadiths. Finally, I realised that Christianity was my true calling.”

    RAJEEV MENON, 42
    CEO, N-Able Solutions

    “Information technology companies require a strong process, otherwise there will be a delivery failure. There are proven processes of development and it is for the company to adapt them and standardise them.

    “This also holds true in life. I was in my twenties and my life was a total mess.
    I had no peace of mind. I was going through a personal crisis. It was then that somebody gave me a book on Jesus. It slowly transformed me. My parents saw the change in me but allowed me to choose my faith. I go for prayer meetings regularly and I have renounced all forms of idol worship.”

    SALMA ALI, 33
    Advertising and Public Relations consultant

    “My mother was a Catholic who converted to Islam when she married my father. We performed namaaz regularly. But my faith was shattered when I came across a verse in the Quran that prescribed corporal punishment for stubborn women. I was shocked. I asked my father, who told me that it was like chiding a child for not listening to elders.

    “After my parents separated, I moved in with my mother, who had become extremely short-tempered and abusive. At the same time, she started attending church. I used to attend the congregations she went to, at which people danced and sang, something unheard of in Islam. It was then that I started reading the Bible. I found Christianity a far more liberating religion. My life became stable, and I started doing well in my studies. I have been praying every day ever since.”

    JAYA RAMAMURTHY, 42
    VP (learning & development) with a business process outsourcing firm.

    “Born into a Tamil Brahmin family, I was brought up in an orthodox religious environment. We worshipped numerous gods and observed various rituals. Every Thursday, we also prayed to Sai Baba. At least 150 devotees would turn up at our house for the prayer sessions. Frankly, I could not make any sense of the rituals and yearned for a relationship with a god I could talk to, a god who would listen to me when I spoke to him.

    “It was around this time that I was afflicted with scabies. I decided to go for a blind date with Jesus in the hope that I would be cured. To my surprise I was rid of my ailment. Years later, at 27, I decided to read the Bible. My mother threw it out of the window. But I did not give up and discovered a god I could talk to. Ever since, I have become far more friendly, and the love of god has changed my life. Today, when I speak, God speaks to me. My relationship with the Almighty has changed my perspective. I have become more respectful towards others.”

  81. Bharat says:

    These are the tactics used by the christian missionaries to harvest new converts. I was told by a Tamil friend, missioanries chooses the devout and God fearing Hindus and by one means or other take them to chruch or their house. And then wash their brains with deceitful sweet and loving words. In the beginning, they told them you can worship your Gods and when you feel you can leave them. Then slowly poisoned them and create hatred agaist their own faith.

    These neo-converts then use for further conversions. Missionaries take them to show to the others, how these good Hindus get converted. Some gullible Hindus falls into traps and too get converted.

    These converted christians already sold-out their souls, what value their words carry? Zero. They are neo-soul harvestors, infact they are the aggressive soul harvewsting businessmen.

    Westerners laugh at such people. Neo-converts thinks, they will treated like special people by the white westerners. But westerners, who are leaving christianity themselves, simply pitty these people. They know, their forfathers too converted by such tactics.

    The fact is that christianity dying in the west, churches has becmome empty buildings. Only thing these buildings does, sounds its bell every hour reminding their existence. More and more westerners following Krishna Consciouness, Vedanta, Yoga, Amma, Buddhism etc.

  82. Indian says:

    Objective eyes

    On this I will get back to you later,

    First, why are they using Hindu names in public?. What are their Christian names?. Cn you please produce their English names. If they are so proud of their being in a faith let them come out with their Christian names.

    Hinduism is no way inferior to any religion. We are proud of whatever we are!

    Did not Gandhaji was induced to convert his religion? Yes, he was! Do you know that? and do you know what Gandhaji replied was?

    I have seen hundreds of tribals in Gujarat who were converted to christianity! Were they able to read Bible? NO!

  83. v.c. krishnan says:

    Dear Sir,
    I reiterate that I was brought up by Christians. I still believe that the only “TRue Christian” died on the cross. I have no qualms about the greatness of the thoughts of Jesus.
    One of the greatest sermons is the sermon on the mount, and Jesus says, “The Kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU”!!
    Jesus went into the temple and threw out the persons who were dealing with money.
    What else is Sanatana Dharma? It states that “Brahman” is you and you are GOD himself. Temples were never places were people paid for getting anything as like today. It was a place for human calmness.
    God is not to be made so cheap as to let him cure “scabies” and fund “get rich stories”.
    Let us not make GOD a cheap magician or box or an Alladin’s Lamp/trinket where he is to satisfy simple human wants. He is there for greater things in life.
    Today we have a vaccine that has been discovered to get rid of Polio.If we treat the vaccine as God then we can also treat a coke bottle which quenches thirst as God.
    Then can we treat the scientist who discovwered it as God? How cheap can we make God, and especially the person who is supposed to be the son of God!
    It is this cheap trickery indulged in by some of the memebers of the “Peaceful religon” that we have this problem.
    We make Saints of people who who have cured “supposed to be lame people”. Then my GOD is Louis Pasteur who discovered pencillin which was given to m y father when he was seriously ill! and he lived after being administered it.
    Let not the neo converts make “The Son of GOD” a cheap magician. He is greater than that.
    He taught the people what the Sanatana Dharma teaches, which is be with yourself.
    What levels one can one stoop down to market a product and then call him “GOD”.
    Shame on us.
    Regards,
    vck

  84. Bharat says:

    Missionaries are Colonialists

    Excerpts.

    Christian missionaries make no secret of the fact that they use medical services, education, and employment opportunities to lure impoverished indigenous populations throughout the world into conversion to Christianity.

    Organized religions are inherently POLITICAL organizations. There is a fundamental difference between the financial enterprise and political machinations of an organized religion versus a mass of independent, unaffiliated believers, philosophers, and mystics who do not support any organized religion.

    The religious and cultural Imperialism performed by missionaries nearly always goes hand-in-hand with political and economic Imperialism. Christian missionaries often work in partnership with the CIA, with the US government, and with wealthy corporations to subvert the religion, the culture, the economy, and the politics of vulnerable indigenous populations. The CIA often uses planes owned by Christian missionary organizations and flown by Christian missionary pilots to smuggle drugs, arms, and prisoners.

    Indigenous people who take advantage of the privileges provided by the missionaries and convert to Christianity partake in a social organization that uses foreign wealth as a tool to eliminate the indigenous culture and replace it with Christianity.

    Considering the aggressive, insidious, and highly political nature of Christian missionary programs, the banning of non-Moslem religious preaching by Moslem governments makes sense.

    When the Hindus of India rise up in riot and drive out the Christian missionaries and the Christian ‘cash converts’, they are doing what the Iraqi, Afghani, and Palestinian Freedom Fighters are doing. They are protecting themselves and their indigenous culture from wealthy and unscrupulous invaders who have no respect for them or for their culture.

    If Christian missionaries want to come to India and try to make converts to Christianity, let them come with empty pockets and compete on a level playing field. And if most of the locals don’t want the missionaries interfering with their traditional way of life, they have the right to make the missionaries and their converts leave.

    more read here.
    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/21-10-2008/106593-missionaries_colonialists-0

  85. Objective Eye says:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    Dear Bharat,

    What has Christianity to do with West?

    It went to West (Europe & US) much after India. In fact Indians became Christians much before whites became Christian.

    FYI, Christianity is an Eastern religion, not Western. It started and spread from Israel. So actually Christianity’s complete roots and teachings are from Asia, not West.

    It would be helpful if you can refresh some History.

    ***

    Dear Indian,

    I am only pasting from OUTLOOK magazine, so I do not even know these people personally. I am pasting the link below for you to check yourself.

    http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081027&fname=Conversions+%28F%29&sid=5

    I doubt if these people have any Christian names. BTW, what do you mean by Christian names? Are you meaning Western names? Most Christians prefer keeping their original ethnic names because Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP, not a religion.

    So the Christians in Israel have Israeli names, the ones in middle east have Arabic names, in Africa they have African names. So Christian names are in Korean, Japanese, Malaysian, Chinese, English, Indian…

    Its true earlier many in India after accepting Christianity wanted English names, however, even most English names are not Christian names. The roots of many of the so called English Christian names are in Greek and Hebrew, and not in English itself.

  86. B Shantanu says:

    Objective Eye, In your first few sentences you say that, “…Even after knowing the fact that there are no forcible/induced conversions happening, some in Hindu fold find it difficult to accept the fact that people are actually leaving Hinduism on their own.

    People may be leaving Hinduism on their own but to say that no conversions through inducements are happening is not correct.

    In this context, pl. see comments at # 6, 23 and 33 and also my comment at # 62 which mentions why proving such “inducements” may be very difficult in a court of law since they are usually of the soft kind.

  87. Harsh says:

    @ Indian

    BTW, can all Hindus read and understand Sanskrit? Are you then saying that such Hindus are not true Hindus?

    To be a Christian one need not have to necessarily read and understand the Bible. Its a relationship with the person of Jesus.

    Reading and understanding the Bible will surely help in one’s growth in Christian principles and teachings, but faith starts in the heart not in the book.

  88. Harsh says:

    @ Shantanu,

    The important question is: if a Hindu can relinquish, abandon, forsake, disown or leave his faith for few benefits or even for a BIG benefit, was he a true Hindu in the first place? I doubt. He never was one.

    After all thats how much he cares for and revers his Hindu faith, isn’t it?

    Then why cry for someone’s earlier faith when that individual himself hardly cares and cries for it.

  89. B Shantanu says:

    @ Harsh: People disown or leave their faiths for all kinds of reasons…

    But I am amazed that you are questioning the “faith” of the starving soul who has decided to convert to save himself/herself or his/her family and loved ones from hunger/death or something else…

    I will never blame him/her.

    But what about the person who is offering such inducements…Is he/she right in doing so? Is aggressive evangelization justified? especially in a land and a culture which has never formally practised proselytization?

  90. Indian says:

    Whomsoever it may concern

    Christian Missionaries lured and induces the poor, uneducated and lower strata of hindu community. I take being the hindu, responsibility of their being in lower strata. Which missionary took advantage of it. No doubt in it!

    This question was also raised in World Religion Conference they showed the way and the method they lure the Hindus. People at World Conference are not dumb and fool who cannot see the truth and hide the facts.

    How come hundreds of tribals got hold of Bible? When they couldnot got hold of Quran or sanskrit or judaism or Buddhasim?

    Who reads bible to them? Who gave permission to this missionaries and churches? It is we who have shown them regards and respect considering them the son of God. I applause the Rajasthan and Gujarat govt., law for conversion. One can fool the public once ,twice but not thrice.

    If they are very much fond of helping, help them and read sanskrit or Geeta to them. Why only Bible?

    You must understand all religion are same, let the community be in touch of their land, country, culture and way of tradition they are born into.

    There are indeginious people in US and Canada too. They too lived under poverty and unhygienic way for several years before govt came to their help. This doesnt not give an opportunity to anyone for converting them.

    Public are recgnising the concept of vegeterianism of Hinduism, when cancer and many disease are associtaed to eating meat. I am not here bragging about food, but sooner or later they will understand other concept of Hinduism too. Just wait and watch.

    Christianity may be regarding conversion as in highest regards but in the eye of human, host country and community it is sin. It is sin!

    Jai Hind!

  91. Bharat says:

    Another word for christianity is fraudism. Its not I say, but by the western intellectuals, western academics, western leaders, now western masses.

    During the last 2000 years, it destroyed culture after culture, society after society, way of life after way of life, all across the world. Market brand is word Jesus and accompaned deceiving words of love, saviour, compassion, relationship, peace. Hundreds of millions of people butchered in the name of religion and its domination. Church-Hitler collaboration to annihilate Jews and Roma (gypsies, of Indian origin) are well-documented. About 10 million Jews and two million Romas were annihilated in Germany only. Romas were persecuted all across Europe, even after converting them into christianity. Even today, they are persecuted in Europe, Italy being the notorious country.

    A masculine aggressive cult, masculine Gods (only Father God, Son God; no place for Mother God, Daughter God), only Fathers in churches, no Mothers, controlled the society from Churches as centralised Nazi-fascist-communist dictatorship. They supported and used all forms of violent means for soul harvests, and made harvests loyal to the church dictatorship. Result, womens were the first to shun this masculine-cult, masculine Gods. Today, small number of western womens practice Masculine cult-Gods christianity, and churches need to import nuns from Asian neo-converts (Korean, Filipinos, Keralites…).

    Neo-converts are the front soldiers, as white British used brown Indians as front soldiers in war/battles. Why shall a white man loose his precious life, let these brown inferior species die like insects. Brown neo-converts are traped in a dilema, western white masters (those who lured them)don’t treat as equal chrisitians but sub-ordinates, nor they can go back to previous faith out of embarrasments. Consequence, they are frustated and aggressive people that results in violence in different areas.

    So, return back to your roots, feel proud of that root, as that is your own. Any form of injustice, discriminations, fight it out. Your future lies with Bharat and its culture, its way of life.

  92. B Shantanu says:

    Excerpts from “Religious peace threatened in South Korea” by Choe Sang-Hun
    (published in International Herald Tribune, Oct 14, ’08) (Thanks to Sh Kak for pointing me in this direction)

    *** Excerpts Begin ***

    SEOUL: At Jogye Temple, normally an island of Buddhist serenity, plainclothes officers have staked out the exits, waiting to grab any fugitives who venture out. Camped out on the temple grounds are the leaders of fierce anti-government protests who have been charged with instigating violence. They have come to the temple seeking political sanctuary, not spiritual uplift. One top government official has branded them “Satans.”

    As a gong echoes through the neighborhood of office towers in central Seoul, afternoon worshipers arriving at the temple – home to the largest Buddhist order in South Korea – walk below a canopy of 6,200 lotus-shaped lanterns. The lanterns are arranged by color to spell the English word “OUT” – a highly unusual rebuke to President Lee Myung Bak from the country’s once-docile and normally apolitical Buddhists.

    “Religious peace in our country is being threatened by those who dream of turning it into a medieval Christian kingdom through a church elder-president,” said Park Jeong Kyu, a spokesman for the Jogye Order.

    Lee, 66, is an elder at a Presbyterian church in Seoul. Since his election last December, Buddhists have voiced a rising alarm over the country’s conservative Protestant churches. These churches support Lee, but they also have irritated many Koreans – not just Buddhists – with their assertive proselytizing and alleged disregard for other faiths.

    In August, tens of thousands of Buddhist monks and lay people marched in central Seoul, accusing Lee and his government of discriminating against Buddhists and favoring Protestants.

    …In the spotlight of the dispute is Lee, who once outraged Buddhists by vowing, when he was mayor of Seoul, to “consecrate” the capital to the Christian God.

    …Buddhists complain that of the 16 members of Lee’s cabinet, 13 are Christians while only one is a Buddhist. (The other two have no religious affiliation.)

    Buddhist misgivings about Lee deepened in June, when the Ministry of Land, Transport and Maritime Affairs posted on its Web site a map of greater Seoul that omitted Buddhist temples, even famous ones, while marking the locations of even minor Christian churches.

    …Earlier, Lee’s public relations secretary, who is also a Protestant pastor, called the protesters “Satans.”

    …Buddhism is 1,600 years old in Korea, but it has lost ground, first to Catholicism and then to Protestant denominations.

    …Buddhists still chafe at the fact that Syngman Rhee, the nation’s dictatorial founding president and also a Protestant elder, made Christmas a national holiday in 1948 – 27 years before Buddha’s birthday gained the same status.

    Like South Korea’s conglomerates, its Protestant churches can seem obsessed with size.

    Seoul is home to 11 of the world’s 12 largest Christian congregations. Yoido Full Gospel Church, whose chief minister recited the prayer at the Lee-Bush lunch, boasts 800,000 members.

    Protestant churches stage all-night prayer marathons. Their evangelical zeal made news last year, when 23 Presbyterians were kidnapped in Afghanistan by the Taliban and two of them were murdered.

    Christian fundamentalists have stoked resentment by vandalizing statues of Dangun, the nation’s mythic founder.

    …The Buddhist furor escalated in recent weeks as videos circulated on the Internet showing zealous Protestant preachers, one of whom led his congregation in shouts for the “collapse of Buddhist temples.”

    In another clip, a leading preacher, Jang Kyong Dong, says: “Buddhist monks are wasting their time. They should convert to Jesus. Is there any Buddhist country in the world that is rich?”

    *** Excerpts End ***

  93. Indian says:

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/106593-missionaries_colonialists-0

    Read this. Not Hindus, all over the world missionaries are recognised as proselytizetion who uses medical, education and employment opportunities to convert the people.

    Now some of who makes very genuine efforts to make us feel eveything is fine, get some air.

    Jai Hind!

  94. Indian says:

    Christians must understand they are hurting the sentiments of millions and they should accept their misdeeds and say “Sorry”. Jesus Christ will be more happier to hear this from you.

    No religion is inferior to any. All are superior on their own way.

    Jai Hind!

  95. Harsh says:

    @ Bharat & Indian,

    I fail to understand what is ticking off you guys. I never found logical explanations offensive. A good explanation should not tick off a learned rational Hindu. I am able to take all arguments and even accept my faults as a Hindu if it is pointed out to me very rationally.

    I notice you guys always respond very aggressively and hostile to even rational explanations? why is it so? Is it because you are not able to counter respond logically and rationally. i have observed you always (most of the time) go on a tangent and write some thing new which does not even relate to the ongoing discussion.

    If one does not respond rationally, it will only prove to be counter productive to his ideas.

  96. Harsh says:

    @ Shantanu, can you kindly elaborate what are you trying to say with your last post?

  97. Bharat says:

    @Harsh:

    First learn whats the word logic and rational means. Open a good dictionary page and see what it says.

    Logic and rational does not says, if muslims kill hindus, it secular and if Hindu retaliates, its communal. Logic and rational does not say, the value of muslim-chrsitian life is precious, while the value of hindu life is like street dogs. Logic and rational does not say, killing of over 50 Bodo Traibal Hindus in Asom by the illegal Bangladehi Jiahdis are no news and business for Congress-UPA govt, but Karnataka is a big news and headache for Congress-UPA govt, where even not a single person got injured in the violence (except damage of few windows and glass-pens of make-shift churches).

    Practice logic and rational objectively. A crime is a crime, no matter who does it. Its not possible Godhara roasting of 59 Hindus (most are childrens and womens) are no crime, but post-Godhara violence are crimes. Either both are crimes, or none.

  98. Indian says:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    @Harsh

    I wanted to say something: I am proud Hindu!

    ***
    @ Harsh

    I am not agressive, neither do I see Bharat’s.

    My brain is fast and few seconds to go through the blog and comment on it. whenever I get times I keep shuffling between various things on internet. I always run out of the time. I put everything straight forward. Truth remains the truth, one cannot twist or dismantle it. Its always hard to digest truth so it seems agressive. Most of the my inputs comes from my personal experience and observatons.

    Sorry if you felt other way, but this is what I can explain.

    Jai Hind!

    ***
    @Bharat

    As always, fantastic inputs.

    Jai Hind

    ***
    I support my experience and observation with what is written in the media too!

  99. Harsh says:

    @ Bharat,

    Are you consumed with hate that you are not able to see, hear or think clearly.

    1. WHO EVER JUSTIFIED GODHRA? Did Muslims or the Govt. or the Media ever justify Godhra and any attacks from radical Muslin groups? NEVER. What are you then ranting about?

    (BTW, remember Godhra is still sub-judice for anyone to conclusively blame any group).

    Remember we Hindus started it all at Babri Masjid. We attacked, and they retaliated. Its not that they attacked and we retaliated.

  100. v.c.krishnan says:

    Dear Shri. Harsh,
    History repeats itself. A hindu temple was destroyed and a Mosque built. The hindus could not retaliate at that time so they waited for an opportunity.
    Where is there no Logic?
    When the Xtians felt that they could do what they want, they destroyed the Hindu temples in Goa and they also said that the Hindus cannot perform their duties to their Pithrus during Pithru Paksh. Great logic on the part of the Xtians?
    History repeated itself and the Hindus gave it back to them in a small way in Kandhamal.
    Where is there no Logic?
    History repats itself! When the Xtians were threatened by the muslims they started the crusades and Salladin gave them a licking. They waited for centuries and hit back at poor Saddam and the Palestinians.
    Where is there no Logic?
    Regards,
    vck

  101. Harsh says:

    *** COMMENT MOVED by MODERATOR ***

    Please follow this link

  102. Bharat says:

    @Harsh

    You are simply a Hindu-basher.

    You are not a Hindu, you are disguised under a Hindu name to deceive others by your rubbish, actually deceiving youself. Even you are a name-sake Hindu, you are league with anti-Hindu sickular brigades to abuse, insult, demonise Hindus to appease your Jihadi terrorists and christian missioanry terrorists.

    We give zero value to your rubbish. I shall not waste my time. No further reply to you.

  103. Harsh says:

    Bharat,

    Thanks! It only goes on to prove the spirit behind each one of us; Good or Evil.

    Trust me, I will NOT miss your no replies.

  104. Hemant says:

    I find Harsh’s comments “We started it” ridiculous!

    Does this person means there were no attacks by Muslims on Hindus or on Hindu temples before Babari?

    In fact Babur himself was involved in temple desecrations…

    Also don’t forget Jiziya.

    Add to this sickness, I recently saw some comment ‘praising’ Aurangzeb @ http://www.twocircles.net/2008mar15/clearing_dust_aurangzeb_s_image.html?t=1222962760#comment-10104

    Recently Francois Gautier’s exhibition showing Aurangzeb as he was (a bad person, specialized in destroying Hindu temples) was targetted by muslim (extrimist?) organizations.

    Now there is no limit to ‘sick’ness…

    Also, was there no ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits before Babari Masjid?

    Did Aurangzeb not destroy hindu temples before babari?

    Was there no genocide of Hindus by the Muslims in 18th century in Afghanistan?

    Dont try to justify muslim terrorism by using babari masjid as excuse…

  105. Indian says:

    Invasion through conversion. Those who have eyes please read it.

    http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?
    name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=260&page=15

    Jai Hind!

  106. Indian says:

    I find Harsh’s comments offending and hurting the sentiments of Hindus. That’s fine my friend, we are very big hearted people.

    But what is most disheartening is, he is doing this deliberately and intentionaly to demean Hindus. He has adopted the habit to see the world with one eye closed in a question of particular people. He is bias and discriminatory. FYI. that is not going to deter us from our stand.

    Jai Hind!

  107. v.c. krishnan says:

    Dear Indian,
    Please do not be disheartened. Fire only tempers the iron. The more criticism we recieve, the more we are ridiculed will be basis of our tempering. You must understand that in this blog we are aiming to get at the truth.
    Nothing is more difficult than searching for the truth.
    Unless we are baited we will not take the efffort to get into behind to find the truth.
    With so many persons on this blog articulating their thoughts goes to prove that we are all in it for ascertaining the truth.
    Each of us has an opinion. All of us have opinions. The placing the opinions together and sifting thru it will lead us to the truth.
    With so many persons giving their thumbs up for fighting the hindu cause goes to show that we are on the path to victory as TRUTH is on our side.
    Do not give up hope now. The more provoactive the statements the greater should be our resolve to fight injustice and untruth.
    Today the Stephanian, the commie those educated at the ST. schools and colleges are fighting a battle which they never expected.
    Let us give it to them and win the game running.
    Regards,
    vck

  108. Bharat says:

    @ Indian #107.
    Imagine, we are in the battlefield of Kurukshetra. War has already started, we have the Sri Krishna and His righterous advises in our side. Targets are adharmic forces, and goal is to defeat/destroy the adharmic forces. [no time to waste thinking about hearts feelings].

    VC Krishnan #108, also made good points.

    Today in Bharat, we are in war. Adharmic anti-HIndu forces under the mask of Seculars (Congress, communists, church, Jihadis…) started multi-pronged attacks on Hindus, from all sides. Among enemies, many are our own Hindu brothers, who are todays Kauravs.

    We must fight the battle to win, with firm belief and determination. Victory is ours, the side of Dharma. Kauravs had 11 brigades army, while Pandavs 7 in the Kurukshetra battlefield. Pandavs won, the side of dharma.

    As Swami Vivekananda said, “Let people say whatever they like, stick to your convictions and assured, the world would be at your feet.”

    Also read.

    The War Against Hinduism
    By Stephen Knapp
    http://www.stephen-knapp.com/war_against_hinduism.htm

  109. Indian says:

    Thanks, VCK and Bharat

    I am happy to see both of your encouraging comments. Very well said.

    Jai Hind!

  110. Indian says:

    Arranged marriages, India’s newest export to West. Many concept of Hinduism ( way of life) will get adopted in the world. Just wait and watch!

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Arranged_love_Indias_newest_export_to_West/rssarticleshow/3614120.cms

  111. K.Harapriya says:

    I think George F. Fegel puts it so eloquently when he writes about the hindus declaring India a homeland for the Hindus where they cannot be targetted by foreign missionaries who have imperialist designs.

    Read his article at http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/106593-1/.
    Unfortunately for us, Europeans seem to have a better understanding of the dangers of letting missionaries loose in our county.

  112. B Shantanu says:

    Something to think about: Meditation: Silent practice appeals to many, including Christians

    Like many churchgoers in the Bible Belt, Kristy Robinson teaches Sunday school with her husband and helps prepare Communion at their Episcopal church in Franklin, Tenn.

    She rounds out her church- and prayer-filled life with another spiritual practice that’s not quite as familiar: meditation.

    “I’ll see a difference in my day if I don’t,” says Robinson, who opens each day with 20 minutes of absolute silence.

    All the chanting and incense and – yikes – even meditation altars may seem too New Age and mystical for some, but meditation has gone mainstream and been embraced by suburban moms and busy people.

    Younger generations get an introduction in yoga classes, careerists escape on meditation retreats and boomers seek tranquility in meditation gardens. Meditation, it seems, is no longer associated as a counterculture activity.

    …A report released this year showed an astonishingly high number of Protestants – nearly half – say they meditate at least once a week. Among the public, 39 percent meditate at least weekly, according to a report by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

    …”We’re a mentally focused, hard-core, achievement-oriented society,” says Dr. J. David Forbes, a medical doctor and meditation teacher in Nashville, Tenn. “People are finding it hard to quiet the brain down.”

    Once they do, he says, meditation may lead not only to new insights but also to a healthier, happier life, he says. Studies show daily practice can reduce stress and anxiety, lower blood pressure and even increase life expectancy in the elderly, he says.

    Carolyn Goddard of Nashville was drawn to centering prayer, a form of contemplative prayer, to deepen her connection with God. A Colorado monk revived this ancient ritual of “resting in God” in the 1970s as an alternative for Christians lured to transcendental meditation.

    “You don’t have to go outside the Christian tradition to find methods of meditation. It’s part of our heritage, as well,” says Goddard, who is an instructor with Contemplative Outreach of Middle Tennessee.

    …Meditation has been, at times, eyed with suspicion. The Vatican in 1989 went so far as to say that methods such as Zen, yoga and transcendental meditation can “degenerate into a cult of the body” and be dangerous.

    …Referring to meditation’s long association with Hinduism, Buddhism and other Eastern religions, Whitney says, “Some of the yoga stuff, where you’re given a mantra, that is rooted in false religions.” He sees no problem with stretching, but once you start chanting, you’re treading on treacherous ground, he says.

  113. Bharat says:

    ‘42,000 converted, only two followed law’

    KANDHAMAL (Orissa): There has been a 66 percent growth in Christian population in Orissa’s Kandhamal region, which has seen attacks on Christians and churches. Of the 42,353 who adopted Christianity between 1991 and 2001, only two followed law to change religion.

    According to data available with the district collectorate, the Christian population in Kandhamal was 117,950 in the 2001 census, up from 75,597 a decade earlier.

    “The Christian growth rate in the district is 66 percent as against 18.6 percent for the overall population growth in the district,” District Collector Krishan Kumar told IANS.

    Of the over 650,000 people in the troubled district, at least 53 percent are tribals, less than 20 percent Christians. Of the nearly 118,000 Christians, a majority has converted from Dalit families.

    more here.
    http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=42,000+converted,+only+two+followed+law&artid=OFBmwRuLcl0=&SectionID=mvKkT3vj5ZA=&MainSectionID=mvKkT3vj5ZA=&SectionName=nUFeEOBkuKw=&SEO=Kandhamal,%20Orissa,%20Christian,%20attacks,%20church

  114. Bharat says:

    Crime Branch sleuths chasing Congress RS Member Radhakant Nayak
    Tuesday, October 28, 2008
    By Anurjay Dhal

    Bhubaneswar: Congress Rajya Sabha member Radhakant Nayak is on run. If unconfirmed reports are to be believed, Nayak, alleged villain behind Swami Laxmananda Saraswati’s murder, is in trouble.

    Crime Branch of Orissa Police looking into the brutal murder of noted Hindu saint has reportedly listed name of Nayak as an accused, who is very close to Congress Chief Sonia Gandhi for his Church back-ground and searching him in several areas for his role.

    Sources pointed out that police might lay it hand either on Radhakant Nayak or his men. Nayak, a former bureaucrat, was considered the chief patron of Pana Christians and protector of the Church in the district.

    However some adverse IB report against him came as a hurdle. In 2004 he was elected to Rajya Sabha on Congress ticket. Hindutava forces always suspected his hand behind the killing. Alleged involvement of Nayak would also help BJP to target Sonia Gandhi.

    more here.
    http://www.orissadiary.com/Shownews.asp?id=8859
    http://www.odishatoday.com/Orissa/Crime_Branch_sleuths_chasing_Congress_281008-235349893.html

  115. Bharat says:

    …On the other hand, Swami Vidyanand is white and Bhakti Swami Thirtha Krishnapad is an African American but are revered by all Hindus, regardless of race. There is no talk of white swami or African American swami.

    My take: ISKCON have brown, white, black, etc Swamijis, and devotees from all color spectrums, race, nationality, languages. And they are nobodys concern, but the devotion and love to Krishna.
    ========

    Christian church is obsessed with race
    Published:Oct 26, 2008
    The Times

    It is a white supremacist mindset that claims “Pope Benedict XVI has created India’s first woman saint”.

    Sister Alphonsa of the Immaculate Conception is not “India’s first woman saint” but the first Christian, or more specifically Catholic, woman saint in India. India has many woman saints belonging to the homegrown faiths.

    If race consciousness were not so pronounced in the Christian church, especially the Catholic church, she would have been a saint for the entire Catholic world.

    After all, the media did not refer to Mohammed Siddique Khan, the mastermind of the London bombings of July 7 2005, as a British terrorist (although he was born in Britain) but as an Islamic terrorist.

    Similarly, a Catholic saint, even if born in India, is a Catholic saint, not an Indian saint.

    For instance, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, although he resided in the West for a great number of years, was always described in the media as an Indian Rishi, Yogi, spiritual master, etc.

    On the other hand, Swami Vidyanand is white and Bhakti Swami Thirtha Krishnapad is an African American but are revered by all Hindus, regardless of race. There is no talk of white swami or African American swami.

    Another noteworthy example of the Christian obsession with race was the picture of former Miss Deaf World, the lovely Candice Morgan, sporting a symbol of Hindu affirmation, the bindi, on her forehead. On April 15 2007, in an interview on the TV1 programme Spirit Sundae, Morgan stated that she was a Christian.

    Many Indian Christians have taken to sporting such symbols of Hindu affirmation in the new South Africa in order to repackage their racism as culture, in order to segregate themselves from Christians of other races, especially black Christians.

    Some Indian Christians no longer want to be buried in what used to be called “sanctified ground” but choose to enter the Christian heaven via the back door, the Clare Estate Hindu Crematorium, previously regarded as a “demonic” place! These are the clever ways of racism. — REALITY CHECK

    http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/News/Article.aspx?id=870299

  116. Indian says:

    Hi to all

    Check this website
    http://www.himalayanacademy.com

  117. B Shantanu says:

    All: Comment overload alert.

    Can I please request you to continue discussion on this subject and related matters on this post?

    On Kandhamal, Conversions and Proselytization

    I have reproduced the last four comments for the sake of continuity.

    Thank you for your understanding