Why are Christian Missionaries targeting India - III
I have decided to move recent comments to the earlier post to this fresh post (mainly to avoid the overload of 100+ comments).
Please continue with your comments below
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Comment by B Shantanu | September 12, 2008
Short excerpt from Mainline Churches Must Address Christian Fundamentalism, Says Scholar, August 14, 2008
CHENNAI, India (UCAN) — A communication expert has urged mainline Churches in India to counter growing fundamentalism in Christianity.
Christian fundamentalism has grown in India as neo-conservative Christian sects mushroom, says Pradip Ninan Thomas, associate professor at the School of Journalism and Communication at the University of Queensland, Australia.
Such groups use television channels to project “triumphalistic, narrow and sectarian understandings of Christianity,” Thomas observes in his new book Strong Religion, Zealous Media, a two-year study of modern-day Christian fundamentalism in southern India’s Tamil Nadu state.
The India-born scholar says these groups, which now monopolize Christian broadcasting in India, support narrow understandings of Christianity, and demean other religions and lifestyles, and their content includes anti-Hindu and anti-Islamic sentiments.
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Comment by Indian
I just read a news regarding probe into flow of foreign fund for converting Hindus into christian. Karnataka Govt. ordered this.
Yes thats true. But foreigners who are contributing this kind of funds are also unaware of this mission thats also true. I have gone into details few months back and I found out that many working class families from foreign countries
are sending donation from $1 to $ 10 or some may be more, to the priest of churches in Andhra, Tamilnadu, kerala.. so far in my knowledge for a cause to eliminate poverty and feed a mouth in India. They have no clue that these funds will be used to establish base of christianity. Priest in return sends out message of receipt of fund by thanking each family who contributed the amount by stating, how their act have helped poor and hungry in India.
As an Indian we are not against any religion. Let the church comes up, but going into remote area, preaching against (falsehood) Hinduism and converting them cannot be accepted.
Jai Hind!
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Comment by B Shantanu
Excerpts from a Abusing freedom, falsifying gods by Kanchan Gupta
*** Excerpts Begin (emphasis mine) ***
On Monday, March 20, Assist News Service, based in Lake Forest, California, USA, which circulates news about the work of evangelists around the world, put out a story by Michael Ireland, its chief correspondent, headlined ‘India’s Prime Minister launches investigation into arrest and persecution of Indian Christians’.
According to this story, “India’s Prime Minister, Dr Manmohan Singh, has launched an investigation into the arrest of Hopegivers International President Dr Samuel Thomas.
…The story then goes on to urge Christians in the US to petition Senators, Congressmen and the US President against what it portrays as outrageous action by the Government of Rajasthan, prodded by ‘Hindu fascists’, against Dr Thomas and his fellow evangelists of Emmanuel Mission International that operates five registered societies in that State. These are: Emmanuel Bible Institute Samiti, Emmanuel Anath Ashram, Emmanuel School Society, Emmanuel Chikitsalaya Samiti and Emmanuel Believers Fellowship, all funded by the US-based Hopegivers.
What it does not mention, however, is the reason why Dr Thomas and his associates have been booked for violating Sections 153(a) and 295(a) of the IPC, “which deal with deliberately outraging religious feelings or insulting the religious beliefs of another community.” Dr Samuel Thomas has been arrested and his father, Mr MA Thomas, has been declared an absconder.
…Dr Thomas has been quoted saying, “Of course, none of these actions are legal. The terrorists and hate groups have taken the law into their own hands and sadly, we have lost confidence in the local Government to control them.”
Since evangelist advocacy groups have willfully refused to tell the full story, it would be in order to place the facts on record.
The immediate provocation that led to the arrest of Dr Thomas and others involved with the Emmanuel mission’s work in Kota is born of the contents of a book that he and his associates have been distributing among the people. The book, Haqeeqat, is authored by a Kerala-based evangelist, MG Matthew, and purports to be a rebuttal of MS Golwalkar’s writings that have been published by the RSS as Bunch of Thoughts.
In reality, it is unadulterated abuse of Hindu scriptures, faith, ritual and tradition. It denigrates every tenet of Hinduism and pours undiluted scorn on Hindu icons and gurus. It casts aspersions on the chastity of Hindu women and questions received wisdom.
…Here are some samples of what Haqeeqat, which was being used by the Thomases and their associates to convince Hindus in Kota to abandon their faith and embrace Christianity, has to say:
* “Hindu gods and goddesses are fictitious and were invented to persecute Dalits” (Page 9).
…
* “Naked sanyasis are worshipped by (Hindu) women. The moment (Hindu) women see naked sanyasis, they fall on the ground and prostrate themselves before the sanyasis. (Hindu) women pour water on the sanyasis’ penises and then happily drink that water. Ling Devata is gratified when he sees all these repulsive things and feels empowered… These people are ignorant and do not know the difference between what is right and wrong.” (Page 93)
* “Sita was abandoned in the forest as per Ram’s wishes… Ram later asked Lakshman to kill Sita. In the end, Ram frustrated with life, drowned himself in Saryu. Such are the teachings of half-naked rishis who are praised by Hindutvawadis.” (Page 100)
* “Lord Shiva, to get people to worship him, dropped his penis on Earth (Devi), shaking the ground and the sky! … . Poor Dharti Devi was shaken by the weight of his penis. Seeing this, all the Gods were scared. It seems Gods would use their penises as bombs! Whenever and wherever they wanted to, they would drop their ‘penis bombs’ to terrorise the people. Thus, they were able to enslave the people… But compared to foreign bombs, these penis bombs were a damp squib.” (Page 106-107)
* “(Ramakrishna) Paramahansa should have known that Ganga is the world’s filthiest and dirtiest river. How many dead bodies float down this river every day? How many half-burnt dead bodies are dumped into it every day?…” (Page 122-123)
* “(For Hindus) men can be Gods, women can be Goddesses… animals are gods, snakes are gods… they (Hindu Gods) fight among themselves, marry among themselves, throw out their wives, run away with others’ wives, they steal, get intoxicated, drink blood, are reincarnated as animals, fish and tortoise, some of them can lift mountains… Some Gods are in same-sex relationships and are yet able to produce babies. These Gods and Goddesses are always armed because they believe in killing and plunder. Some Gods think their penises are more powerful than nuclear bombs. Others like animals live naked among their followers. Some of them spend their time in yogic exercises, others are in samadhi and happy to see the number of blind followers swell… You can wash away your sins by worshipping the penises of Gods” (Page 146)
* “How could Arya Hindus bring Aryanisation on this earth. To be Arya, one has to be born of an Arya womb… If Arya Hindus want to bring Aryanisation then they must lend or rent out all Arya wombs to non-Aryans. Non-Aryans should be given Brahmin women so that children are born from Brahmin womb” (Page 182-183).
* “In modern India, many Ramas of this belief are living a carefree life. They marry several times, desert their wives, marry several times, and leave them. Many Ramas kill their Sitas. They are following their God Rama.” (Page 269)
* “(Lord) Krishna had a despicable sex life… Shri Krishna is famous because of his love life. He had 16,008 wives. And all Yadav women were his illegitimate lovers. (Hindu) women are drawn towards him because of pornographic and vulgar tales of his sex life.” (Page 391)
This is not the first time that the Emmanuel mission has run foul of the local administration and upset Hindus. On February 24, 2005, there was a near riot situation following the mission’s crude attempt to convert Hindus through allurement and false propaganda. On that occasion, the mission head, Mr MA Thomas, had promised not to continue with such provocative activities.
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Comment by Bharat
FYI.
Proof of Christian complicity in abusing Hindu Gods in Mangalore
http://greathindu.com/
Also read.
Karnataka State Home minister VS Acharya is also a blogger. Here are the some news/views, direct from his blog -
This has photos of Christians attacking Policemen.
http://drvsacharya.blogspot.com/2008/09/attacking-fellow-human-being-which.html
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Comment by Patriot
@ Bharat:
Interesting links from GreatHindu. Thanks. But, take a step back and think about our response to the provocation. If the Bajrang Dal or whichever lumpen organisation has been attacking the churches/prayer halls had these papers in hand, why did they not file a criminal complaint against the pastors/missionaries/whoever and get them arrested and externed from Karnataka? I am sure, in a BJP-ruled state, this should not have been a problem?
No, instead the goons have to go around breaking up buildings …. I am sorry but all this looks like post-facto rationalisation and justification.
This may be a bitter pill to swallow, but our centuries old hindu civilisation is currently behaving like the people we detest. Congratulations to the Sangh parivar for achieving what centuries of mughal rule and british rule could not do - the rubbishing of hindu culture.
Here is another link of barbaric behaviour:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/150-year-old_cathedral_set_afire_in_Madhya_Pradesh/rssarticleshow/3501987.cms
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Comment by B Shantanu
Patriot, Bharat, All: I believe India is facing an existential challenge (or is that too strong a word?)…and it is time to rise above these things and strive to come together for the unity and security of our country…
Pl. read this short excerpt from When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds by Tarun Vijay (published on Rediff yesterday):
…India needs a rebellion of Indian people who would merge all their other identities under one banner — the tricolour. Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That’s where the nation gets life.
When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had lined up before the British for bakshish and be their officers.
Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic values.
What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil life of our nation?
Isn’t it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say ‘no’ to this bloodbath unitedly?
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Comment by Indian
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
I agree, Shantanu!
There are always bad apples, let them rot, and its not the end of the world. What you mentioned. Very true, few are interested in nation and comes out to fight for it. Others are too lazy or not interested and has selfish moto. I have learned that we all have differences but we all have responsibilities towards the nation, leave behind differences. Don’t give a heed to such elements who are uprooting our unity.
Jai Hind
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http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19church.htm
Attack on church. It reminds me of “Lato Ke Bhoot Bato se Nahi mante”. Groups are left with no options and support and have to get it done by any means. Only difference is they are (Missionaries are sophisticated goons). The attack of converting Hindus in to christian by sophisticated means is no less than what has been done by attacking misionaries.
Sorry for my words. No one heard the groups who are demanding the probe in to this conversion mission. Govt., turned deaf ear to people of India. This is only we can envisage.
The attack on Hindu priest by some christian when senaotrs called him for prayers in U.S is not new news to all of us.
Also read, nice piece to understand why this happened.
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PAGEID=7100&SKIN=B
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On the back of my mind I was thinking. Sociologists have recommended; There will be no clashes, no fight and no hate, if world has one religion and one language. Is these they want to achieve?
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Comment by Bharat
To all:
1. I am always for peaceful co-existence (PC), I mean true PC. However, the very term co-existence is not one-sided, but multi-sided. I can’t co-exist with others, if others don’t wish to co-exist. Others want I surrender, give up everything of my own and accept their will, their way. In that situation, co-existence is impossible. Give us example of one place on earth, where chrsitians and muslims allowed others peaceful co-existence. They terrorised natives to bow before them, accept their will and order. Read the Goa Inquisition and see how barbaric and cruel it was. And the man who did all these cruel barbarity is a glorified Saint.
2. Japan surprised and shocked USA by attacking Pearl Harbour. What US did? They took their own time and then taught Japan a lession perhaps it will never forget till its existence. Today, Japan is, no doubt, an economic power, but a sub-ordinate power under USA. It ives like wet cat under US nuclear umbrella and command.
3. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism is not a new phenomenon, neither in India nor outside. They destroyed culture after culture across the world. Look at NE India, even at time of independence there was not a single christian majority state. Today, they shout Nagaland for Christ and a tiny Hindus can’t even built a mandir. Most of NE India’s militancy now run by the church and christians. They almost encircled Asom, which remained Hindu majority, from all sides. Its a matter of time, they will start sessation movement like East Timor and their western masters will overtly support it.
4. What Dalai Lama had to say about his country’s invasion and then colonisation by the China. He said, before Buddhism, Tibetans were warior people and they conqured others. After Buddhism entered Tibet, Tibetans became so non-violent that they lost any sense of thinking to protect themselves. Consequence, when China invaded, they had nothing to do but surrender and live as sub-ordinate and second class people.
5. There is a saying in Samskrit, Veer Bhugya Vasundhara (the World only enjoyed by the braves). Hindus have did, and seen enough cowardice and sweet lectures. Enough is enough. Half a million Kashmiri Hindus (they call themselves Pandits) run away from their thousand years of living place, they had no guts to resist and fight. Because, they never learned how to protect themselves and turned themselves into bunch of cowards and impotents. They lived under the protection of Dogras. Had there been half a million Dogras or Sikhs in Kashmir valley, they would not have run away. Why Jammu people revolted in recent Amarnath land issue? Simply because, Jammu is dominated by the Dogras (about 65% are Dogras).
6. Why not we talk about dareness of christians in Orissa (they comprise around 2%) to brutally and mercilessly killing a 84 years old Swamji and his deciples on Janmastami night? When an Autralian missioanry was killed, news run months and condemnations for years. And he was decorated with national awards, for converting Hindus into christianity. Why double standards? People revolted in Orissa, retaliated and why not? Are Hindus born to bear humiliations and oppression all the time? For cowards yes, not for the braves.
7. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism on Hidnus have to stop, stop permanently if govt and people want to see peace and harmony. Else, nothing can stop it from more conflicts. Its not my wish, its natural consequence. Instead of addressing the illegal Conversions and Hindu abusing actions by the christians, Govt of India warns states with article 355 (precursor to article 356). What a nation we live, is it a covert christian nation? Not covert anymore, now it overt.
8. Those Hindus thinks all such retaliations are by VHP or Bajrandal, need to come out from sicular medias traps. There may be some incidents, in most cases they are spontaneous. Does that means all Hindus overnight turned into VHP and Bajrangdal? Well, that would be wonderful. And what secular govt will do, if all Hindus turned into VHP and BD? Every Hindus seeing situations of Hindus in J&K, Kerala, Asom and many other places. They don’t need VHP or BD to get incited and agitated. This is my experience, not from textbooks.
Bharat
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Comment by Indian
Very well said! Bharat!
*** COMMENTS END ***
Please continue the discussion via comments to this post instead of the earlier one.
Separately, I have uploaded a document in the “Docs and Slides” box on the right titled, “Preparing for the Harvest” (first published in Tehelka). Many of you will find it interesting. Download it here
Thanks.
Related Posts:
“Why are Christian Missions targetting India?” - II
“Why have Missionaries chosen to attack India?”
.
To all:
1. I am always for peaceful co-existence (PC), I mean true PC. However, the very term co-existence is not one-sided, but multi-sided. I can’t co-exist with others, if others don’t wish to co-exist. Others want I surrender, give up everything of my own and accept their will, their way. In that situation, co-existence is impossible. Give us example of one place on earth, where chrsitians and muslims allowed others peaceful co-existence. They terrorised natives to bow before them, accept their will and order. Read the Goa Inquisition and see how barbaric and cruel it was. And the man who did all these cruel barbarity is a glorified Saint.
2. Japan surprised and shocked USA by attacking Pearl Harbour. What US did? They took their own time and then taught Japan a lession perhaps it will never forget till its existence. Today, Japan is, no doubt, an economic power, but a sub-ordinate power under USA. It ives like wet cat under US nuclear umbrella and command.
3. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism is not a new phenomenon, neither in India nor outside. They destroyed culture after culture across the world. Look at NE India, even at time of independence there was not a single christian majority state. Today, they shout Nagaland for Christ and a tiny Hindus can’t even built a mandir. Most of NE India’s militancy now run by the church and christians. They almost encircled Asom, which remained Hindu majority, from all sides. Its a matter of time, they will start sessation movement like East Timor and their western masters will overtly support it.
4. What Dalai Lama had to say about his country’s invasion and then colonisation by the China. He said, before Buddhism, Tibetans were warior people and they conqured others. After Buddhism entered Tibet, Tibetans became so non-violent that they lost any sense of thinking to protect themselves. Consequence, when China invaded, they had nothing to do but surrender and live as sub-ordinate and second class people.
5. There is a saying in Samskrit, Veer Bhugya Vasundhara (the World only enjoyed by the braves). Hindus have did, and seen enough cowardice and sweet lectures. Enough is enough. Half a million Kashmiri Hindus (they call themselves Pandits) run away from their thousand years of living place, they had no guts to resist and fight. Because, they never learned how to protect themselves and turned themselves into bunch of cowards and impotents. They lived under the protection of Dogras. Had there been half a million Dogras or Sikhs in Kashmir valley, they would not have run away. Why Jammu people revolted in recent Amarnath land issue? Simply because, Jammu is dominated by the Dogras (about 65% are Dogras).
6. Why not we talk about dareness of christians in Orissa (they comprise around 2%) to brutally and mercilessly killing a 84 years old Swamji and his deciples on Janmastami night? When an Autralian missioanry was killed, news run months and condemnations for years. And he was decorated with national awards, for converting Hindus into christianity. Why double standards? People revolted in Orissa, retaliated and why not? Are Hindus born to bear humiliations and oppression all the time? For cowards yes, not for the braves.
7. Christian missionaries Soul Harvesting terrorism on Hidnus have to stop, stop permanently if govt and people want to see peace and harmony. Else, nothing can stop it from more conflicts. Its not my wish, its natural consequence. Instead of addressing the illegal Conversions and Hindu abusing actions by the christians, Govt of India warns states with article 355 (precursor to article 356). What a nation we live, is it a covert christian nation? Not covert anymore, now it overt.
8. Those Hindus thinks all such retaliations are by VHP or Bajrandal, need to come out from sicular medias traps. There may be some incidents, in most cases they are spontaneous. Does that means all Hindus overnight turned into VHP and Bajrangdal? Well, that would be wonderful. And what secular govt will do, if all Hindus turned into VHP and BD? Every Hindus seeing situations of Hindus in J&K, Kerala, Asom and many other places. They don’t need VHP or BD to get incited and agitated. This is my experience, not from textbooks.
Bharat
Comment by Bharat | September 19, 2008
Very well said! Bharat!
Comment by Indian | September 19, 2008
Dear Sir,
I am really dissolusioned of the Christians if what you have written is true about this thomas; I am not any way surprised as if you look at the places where the riots between communities are taking place, you will notice that most of these places are where the Malayalle Christian priests perform.
I studied in Christian school and let me repeat, as I have said the same thing earlier, I have had great times with the foreign priests who came to our schools as rectors and principals.
I also wish to state that it was only after the Indianistion of the priestheed that I am faced with a problem of the christian laity.
I am ashamed to state that when I wanted admission in a Christian school where my family had studied, the Indian Christian principal asked me a question which shocked me; “she asked why do you want to put your child in a Christian school when you are a Hindu”.
She had the right to ask it and I accepted her argument. At the same time when there was a celeberation for a jubliee of the school and when she approached the Alumanae for funds I saw to that we collected funds for the “School”.
Let me assure you that it is truly the Indians who have contributed more to this divide rather than the foreigners.
It is more to hit the Hindu psyche as most of them come very poor backgrounds or sometimes do not even have something known as a background. I have seen even during my schooldays when orphans were trained to be priests and nuns as they had some avocation to take to.
At that time most of them had the funds that the British had left them. Today they are hardpressed for funds and hence to keep the funds flowing they indulge in these rabid dog behaviour.
The need of the hour is more of a dialogue rather than confrontation as it is only Indian vs Indian and India will be the loser
Let me write something we can dialogue on later.
regards,
vck
Comment by vck | September 19, 2008
Bharat: I have some sympathy for your sentiments…
A “Hindu” in India today feels besieged…he feels he is slowly being encircled…that his voice is not being heard and his concerns are not shared…
This perplexes him as he has always believed this is his motherland, his “natural” home, the birthplace of his faith…and yet, he feels unsafe in large parts of Bharat-bhumi…in Maharashtra (if he is from UP/Bihar), in Assam (likewise), in Kashmir, in Orissa…
He feels not only his life and personal safety but also his belief system is being attacked - slowly but systematically…
He feels exasperated that he has to preface every grievance that he may have by stressing his “secular” credentials - lest he be mistook for a “Hindutva-wadi”…He feels embarrassed to mention his faith in public discourse…and constantly feels that he is being forced on the backfoot…
At some point, this feeling gives way to anger - spontaneous, unplanned and unpredictable…and we all wonder where and how did this happen…
This is what you saw in Kandhamal…and in Jammu…unforeseen reaction of people who feel that their back is against the wall…
Is their logic to this? Probably not…but is the feeling real? It does appear to be…
Comments and thoughts from others welcome.
P.S. I need not add that the use of “he” above is meant to indicate “he” & “she” both.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 19, 2008
Statement of Shri Ravi Shankar Prasad
National Spokesperson & MP
The BJP Condemns Abuse Of Article 355 by The UPA Government
The BJP strongly condemns the move of the Government of India to issue directives under Article 355 of the Constitution of India to the governments of Karnataka and Orissa, ruled by the BJP and the BJP-BJD alliance respectively. The entire action is politically motivated, highly prejudicial, patently discriminatory and a belated attempt by the UPA government to divert the popular attention over its abject failure to take strong and effective measures to contain terrorism in the Country which has left a painful legacy of insecure India where terrorists are killing the innocent people with impunity.
Read more here.
http://www.bjp.org/
Comment by Bharat | September 19, 2008
‘Inducements lure poor to convert’
17 Sep 2008, 0210 hrs IST, Rishikesh Bahadur Desai,TNN
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Inducements_lure_poor_to_convert/articleshow/3491637.cms
Satya Darshini - the reason for attacks?
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Sep172008/district2008091690423.asp
Comment by Bharat | September 20, 2008
Well said, Bharat ….. I am sure you will find a lot of support for your views on this blog as well outside.
In fact, Raj Thackeray must be one of your most ardent supporters, given that he has been using the same tactics in Mumbai. Of course, his battle is against a different community, but that is such a small point, a mere bagatelle. Since, you are all cut from the same cloth and what is sauce for the goose, etc etc
Comment by Patriot | September 22, 2008
While we condemn the attack on religious places, we should also equally, probably more strongly, condemn the root cause: conversion by spreading hatred about Hinduism, which is like forced conversion.
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The Following are the list of abuses from one such book – Satya Darshini – distributed by the missionaries of New Life. This book is in Kannada and the translation of the abusive passage is as follows.
1. Urvashi – the daughter of Lord Vishnu – is a prostitute. Vashitha is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married his own Mother. Such a degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
2. When Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of hell, how can he enlighten others? Since Krishna himself is a shady character, there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers. (page 50)·
3. It was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita. Since Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to consider them as Gods. (page 39)
4. When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) are consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate others. Their projection as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
5. When Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he immediately did so. How can such a “evil brahma” be a Creator of this Universe? How is it possible for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to be gods? (page 39)
6. God, please liberate the sinful people of India who are worshipping False Gods that believe in the pleasures of illicit ‘Vyabichari’ relationships. (Page 39).
Please read the below images of Pages from SATHYADARSHINI. Pls read till the end (Kannada Version).
Comment by Sridhar | September 23, 2008
I got the following in an email. I am posting it here, as it is, for the sake of those who love being fanatics and can thrive only in hostile atmosphere. I wonder how different are we from Taliban and other fanatics around the world. Given a chance we would give to India what they have done to their country: Destruction and Mayhem. One can see it already.
pDhirendra Panda writes:
I am born of a hindu Brahmin family. My father and other relatives being devotedly religious persons used to tell me that sanyasis are symbols of love, care, truth, justice above earthly hatred-ness, jealousy, violence. We were told about the stories of Swami Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Param Hansa, Sri Chaitanya, Jayadev, Aurovindo.
During my childhood, it would have been quite difficult to digest that sadhus and saints engaged for spreading hate and violence. Similarly there would be many people to disbelieve that sadhus are campaigning for votes to a particular party and using religion for political ends. So nobody should get surprised if they call for wiping out the Christians from Kandhamal.
On 6th August 2008 there were 144 in and around Swadhinata Sangrami Sadan Ground. Considering the announcements and assurance given by the Police Officers and others, it was thought the government will not allow any rally or meeting of VHP. But the VHP had its Sraddhanjali sabha (Tribute paying meet) and along with sadhu (ascetic holy man) sanths (saints), BJP leaders such as Suresh Pujari (President,Orissa BJP), Prasanna Mishra, Panchanan Rout, MLA Pratap Sarangi and Subash Chouhan, Bajranga Dal leader were present in the Meeting.
Please read some of the statements given in the meeting
Mahant Swami Satchidananda Maharaj, presiding over the Meet:
Sacrifice of Swamiji will be meaningful once the cow-slaughter and conversion is totally stopped in the state. In each village committees will be formed to actualize the dreams of Swamiji. If the villagers get awareness, these will be stopped automatically.
Tridandi Swami Bhagwan Das:
Now the Hindus have become minority. There is an international conspiracy behind it. The Christians, majority in 186 countries have not only killed Laxmanananda, but also doing this; they have challenged the entire Hindu Society.
Swami Arupananda Maharaj:
Attack on Swamiji is the same as attacking the ‘Hindu Religion’. All the saints/sadhus need to counter-attack unitedly otherwise the entire India will be converted into a Christian nation.
Swami Brahmananda Saraswati:
Once the Englishmen came for trade and commerce had occupied our country. Now Christians in the name of ‘the minorityism’ have come again to take away our ‘independence’. If the attack continues like this, the Hindu community will be wiped out one day.
Swami Satyapriya Maharaj, Arya Samaj:
The Government is like a eunuch that could not give protection to Swamiji, but continue in giving protection to murderers.
Abinash Baba, Joranda:
This is a country of saints and sadhus and the country is ‘functioning’ for them only. The Government should provide security and protection to mathas and temples.
Ramacharan Das Maharaj:
Limiting ourselves in mere blaming the Government will not serve the purpose. We have to realize and decide that whoever will be able to understand the Hindu religion and respect the saints and sadhus can sit on the throne. If this happens, all the problems will be solved.
Swami Chanmayananda Maharaj:
The Hindus occupying 85 % of total population are screaming, but the government pays no heed to it. The situation is like this only because we are not united. If we unitedly put all our votes for one party, everything will be set aright. Shankaracharya should be entrusted with the responsibility to decide whom to vote for and issue ‘whips’ to cast all our votes accordingly. By this whichever party comes to power will be compelled to respect our words.
Ashok Sahu, President, Hindu Jagaran Samukhya (former DG, Police Assam):
[Archbishop] Raphael Cheenath, President, Loka Sangram Dalit Manch and John Doyal have hands behind the murder of Laxmanananda.
Gouri Prasad Rath, General Secretary, VHP:
Now Orissa is run under demonic prowess. The sadhus and sanths were arrested for no reason. They were not allowed to have darshan (see) to Sri Ram temple. The Police should beg apology for insulting the Hindu community in Orissa by arresting the sadhus and saints. As we were not allowed to hold condolence (sradhhanjali) rally, henceforth we’ll never allow anybody to hold peace rallies here. Unless the killers of Swamiji are arrested, there will be no peace in Orissa.
Ashok Tiwary, VHP’s Akhil Bharatiya Dharma Jagaran Pramukh; Ramanuj Das Moharaj, Chintamani Parbat Maharaj, Mahanta Raghubir Das Maharaj, Mahanta Ram Charan Das Maharaj, Mahant Ramakrishna Das Maharaj, Sankarananda Maharaj, Mahant Narayan Baba, Brahmachari Jiban Chaitanya Maharaj, Swami Prana Swarupananda Maharaj have taken vow ? The Christians will be wiped out from Kandhamal.__,_._,___
Comment by Objective Eye | September 24, 2008
@ Objective Eye: I dont find anything wrong in defending our dharma. Hindus have been good enough till now, but the world is not. India has been a place were everyone lived peacefully and world is taking advantage of this. Our old dharama have made us defenseless. There is vast difference between fanatism and protecting one’s dharama. I liked it what this saints have done it in the meetings.
Take any religion their priest is the one who takes reign. Now we learned this. Wasn’t it bad when pope uttered the words such as hindus are worshipping false god. When pope can incite hatered and compared to that our sadhus and saints have done nothing! Atleast we are not telling others that your religion is so and so. I think this is need of the time our saints also helps us to keep our cutlture and religion intact. Would you like hindus wiped out from India? Christian missionaries are definitely on that mission. If we dont raise our heads soon we will be out of our country? Open your eyes!
Comment by Indian | September 24, 2008
FYI. New target areas of Soul Harvesting Business.
World’s Former Only Hindu Country Opens to Christianity
By Jennifer Riley
Christian Post Reporter
Mon, Jul. 14 2008 01:56 PM EDT
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080714/world-s-former-only-hindu-country-opens-to-christianity.htm
Comment by Bharat | September 24, 2008
@ Indian,
I don’t speak for Pope. But, still would like to be informed when and where did he utter these words. I will surely speak out against it.
Regarding Dharma, my understanding differs vastly from yours. True and Real Dharma allows people to either Embrace it or Leave it. It never imposes itself upon anybody because it can exist without anybody’s help. The very fact that a Dharma starts to strangulate people to remain in it and follow it, raises doubts about its authenticity. Extreme reactions only manifests its own fears of not being genuine.
Have you ever wondered why there is never any hue and cry in any Christian majority nations when somebody leaves Christianity and joins any other faith. Its never an issue for Christians. Why?
A Dan Brown novel (The Da Vinci Code) attacking Christian beliefs never resulted in any riots or even a single demonstration anywhere in the Christian world. And this is just one of the many hundred writings that has attacked Christian tenets in the past. Why?
Movies deriding their Lord (Jesus Christ Superstar) nor hundreds such works have never got Christians taking up arms or getting the film banned. Why?
The only explanation I can think of is that they are very comfortable with their faith irrespective of what you think of them, irrespective of whether people leave it and join other faith.
Comment by Objective Eye | September 25, 2008
Continuing violence against christian tribals in orissa - the hate campaign rolls on (so much for the alleged tolerance of hinduism):
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1193118
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fresh-violence-arson-in-kandhamal-curfew-clamped/365791
Here is a very interesting set of articles from DNA: Ultras, zealots, both misuse faith
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1190773&pageid=0
The ass brigades of VHP and Bajrang Dal keep up their diatribe about conversions - poor insecure, useless souls. And, these self-styled swamis would probably be better addressed as Talib XYZ, etc.
Carry on guys, breaking up India. Why do you protest against Raj Thackeray, then?
Comment by Patriot | September 25, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
Objective Eye
When someone leaves christianity, its not been done by force or taking advantage of their naiveness and innocency. Hindus are being converted by brain washing and Christian missionaries are on a mission to convert people. This issue was alos brought to notice during world religion conference with videos and litrature they uses. No Hindu organisation is engaged is such activity. So no reason for hue and cry.
Regarding pope words, I will find the link, it was in a few days back only. I was also one of the victim for conversion, But I put them in a jinx, and also I have inspired them to read Hinduism before going to educated Hindu.
***
I have also heard and read somewhere that christian missionaries have planned and drafted a list “How to deal with Hindus and specially intelligent public” I read with my own eyes. If I get that copy on site somehwere I will publish here.
***
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/25tarun.htm
By Tarun Vijay
Nice piece to read
Comment by Indian | September 25, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
PART I PART II AND PART III… and still bloggers are going about the christian conversion debates!.
I am commenting for the first time on this thread.. because a question arose in my mind… about how knowingly and unknowingly mostly all or should i say 100% all of the people who have commented against christian missionary conversions could turn to be double standard or hypocrates.
All of are talking about dhrama and hindu religion and how missionaries are converting people… Well Well NEWS FLASH or REALITY CHECK PEOPLE.. KNOWINGLY OR UNKNOWINGLY YOU ALL HAVE FALLEN INTO THEIR TRAP AND ARE SOME WHAT CONVERTED and Accepted CHristainity or Chirstain culture…
Now you must be wondering how and what am i talking…
just ask some questions to yourself… and if most of the answers are yes.. then you are either converted or accepted
christian culture.
1)DO YOU CELEBRATE YOUR BIRTHDAY with a CAKE? n Candles
( hindu birthdays should be celebrated with a sweet dish
like kheers .. and aarti and not candles)
2)Do you celebrate HAPPY NEW YEAR on 31st Decemeber!!… hmm we celebrate christain new year… and some of the people even christmas… (how many of the hindus even know when are their new years of their respective community and celebrate with the same eager as do for christain new year)
3)Valentines day!!! …( i dont even want to get started on this one)
Well i know most of us have celebrated any of the above major christains festivals and ceremonies… so semi-converted ones … before this thread reaches to part IV… introspect and think about your own contributions towards this whole aspect.
And As far as WHY CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ARE TARGETING INDIA?… BEcause They know they can easily put a TOPI(cap) on the educated crowd of India, via there strong marketing of festivals and products…via american and other christain countries companies..
So bloggers no double standards!!!.. either completely oppose christainity and chirstian culture n products or dont comment on conversions.!
जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!
***
some of the other signals of semi converted ones
1)They send and flaunt by sayin “my kid goes to a convent schools or colleges?”
I have seen on matrimonials advertisements.. boy/girl convent educated! …. i wonder the only thing remaining is to write convent converted!!..
Comment by Mahesh Patil | September 26, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
Readers please take note.
Sorry for my comment #14 where I said I was one of the victim. Its not victim, but they tried their hard covincing me.
***
@ Mahesh: I completely agree. It is about trade and commerce, when we celebrate their festival. Business takes off by selling cards, roses and unnecessary gifts.
***
@ Objective Eye: http://www.financialexpress.com/news/World-worships-false-idols-Pope/361114/
Comment by Indian | September 26, 2008
Aren’t you already Christianized & Westernized?
Question also for the Hard core Hindutva peddlers.
Some more check points:
1. Do you prefer wearing Shirts and trousers more than traditional Indian dhoti kurta?
2. Do you wear tie when you dress up formally for interviews and 2-piece suits for other occasions?
3. Do you prefer any western genre of music even for Hindi songs than the Indian classical music? Raag Bhairavi or….
4. Do you love Guitar over Sitar, Piano over Harmonium, Drum set over Tabla/Dholak?
5. Do you love western style dancing over Indian dance forms in the discotheques and parties? Check out even the 50s/60s ‘Hindi’ movies and know the truth about Indian hypocrisies.
Comment by Joy | September 26, 2008
Hi Joy - your comment is interesting, but I’d say we’ve been open to westernisation really NOT Christianization
Let’s see if Jesus Christ was christianized:
1. Did Jesus prefer wearing Shirts and trousers more than traditional clothing? NO
2. Do Jesus wear a tie when he dressed up formally for interviews and 2-piece suits for other occasions? Will take a pass on that
3. Did Jesus prefer any western genre of music even for his local songs/hymns more than the classical music of his geography and age? NO
4. Did he love Guitar over ……..? NO
Hence Jesus Christ wasn’t Christian
Seriously, I seriously doubt if JC would tolerate the Pope and his cohorts and whatever they preach as Christian if he were to return today…From reading the NT it seems to me he was keen to develop the love in one’s heart not political influence, least by bribing and brainwashing the unsuspecting and gullible
Comment by Tatichawla | September 26, 2008
@ Indian: Thanks for the link (#14).
All: I would highly recommend the article by Tarun Vijay: Wounded hearts from which I am reproducing this brief excerpts:
***
@ Mahesh, Joy: Both of you would find this sentence interesting (from Tarun Vijay’s article):
Comment by B Shantanu | September 27, 2008
This line is wrong: “Vivekananda, who officially started celebrating Christmas in all his great centres of Hindu faith the world over, which has continued unopposed”
Which great centres of Hindu faith is Tarun Vijay talking about? Ramkrishna Mission? Vedanta Mission? Neither of the two celebrate christmas. Also, Tarun should provide the evidence of Vivekananda having ever celebrated christmas.
“The only place where attacks took place apart from New Life prayer halls”
So, we ascribe ourselves the right to take the law into our own hands in certain cases, as determined by ourselves.
Please explain to me how this is different from the tactics adopted by the Shiv Sena earlier, and now Raj Thackeray?
Tarun Vijay’s article is puerile nonsense and goes against the entire concept of our civil law and order. Tomorrow, if I do not like the way certain people drive on the streets of Mumbai (and plenty break driving rules, even in Mumbai now), am I justified if I go about beating up these errant drivers? Maybe shooting them?
Really pathetic, the type of logic people use to justify violence.
Comment by Patriot | September 27, 2008
I was searching through the net, after reading the Tarun Vijay’s article for Swami Vivekananda celebrating christmas… Well i wasnt able to find any link which states that Swami VIvekananda initiated it..
yes i did find links of the vidyapith celebrating christmas
But, it doesnt says it was initiated by vivekananda…
” Anyways i am not opposing a hindu celebrating christain newyears or attending easter partys or chirstmas or cutting cakes the point i am trying to make is “if those hindus who are celebrating the birth of christainity and christain culture..then why are these same hindus oppossing conversions ?” if anyone wants to be secular.. dont be selective… or else you are just another double dholki
The same logic i would like to apply for vijay’s article
that if Vivekananda did initiate to celebrate chirstmas or the birth of christ… and IF the answer is yes..then was Vivekananda opposed to chirstain conversions?
जय हिंद! जय महाराष्ट्र !!
http://www.vidyapith.org/Folder_2006/News2005.shtml
Comment by Mahesh Patil | September 27, 2008
@ Patriot: Thanks for the comment.
1. Just to put a conext around attack on New Life prayer halls…
New Life is the organisation that allegedly published the inflammatory booklet (mentioned in comment #8 above).
That does not justify violence…and you are right, we cannot let hurt feelings undermine civil law and order…
2. The second point is about selective/slanted reporting by the media…
I still have not seen any reports about the alleged desecration of Vinayaka idols in Ramanathapurama…
***
Mahesh: You raise some good points…I have a post in the making on conversions (specifically)…Hopefully I will get a chance to address your questions in that…thanks.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 27, 2008
Here is some material taken from Sita Ram Goel’s book “Vindicated by Time” based on the 1956 Niyogi commission report on missionary activities.
We are not against ANY religion. Infact, I myself have read the New Testament many many times, and have found great wisdom in it. What we are against is the unscrupulous conversion efforts done by missionaries who exploit the misery of man to make him change his religion, and are funded by western churches on a grand scale. We must get this across too - increasingly people think that if you are pro-hindu, you are anti-muslim/anti-christian. I am certainly pro-hindu, and am NOT anti anyone. In fact I feel there is room for Jesus WITHIN hinduism. I regard Jesus as a hindu saint.
___________________________________________________________
The Report revealed that the bulk of this foreign money received ostensibly for maintaining ?educational and medical institutions? was spent on proselytization. ?It has been contended,? said the Report, ?that most of the amount is utilised for creating a class of professional proselytisers, both foreign as well as Indian. We have not been able to get the figures of the salaries which the foreign Missionaries receive for their service in India. Only Rev. Hartman (Amravati No. 1) was pleased to declare that his salary was 63 dollars per month paid from Rome, plus free quarters and vehicle allowance. One can have some idea of the scale of salaries of American Missionaries from the fact that in the American Evangelical and Reformed Church there are 28 Missionaries on the India roll and under the head of Missionary salaries and appurtenances the figure comes to 90,072,23 dollars& nbsp;(American Evangelistic and Reformed Church Blue Book, 1955, pages 56,60). They are supplied with well-furnished bungalows, and they command resources in vehicles and other things.?73 At the same time it noted a great disparity between the scales of salaries and allowances paid to foreign missionaries on the one hand and to their native mercenaries on the other.
There were 480 foreign missionaries working in Madhya Pradesh at that time. Out of them as many as 236 were Americans. The Report gave a count of foreign missionaries, Americans and others, stationed in the 22 districts of the then Madhya Pradesh. ?Besides those,? it added, ?included in the number given by the National Christian Council in the Christian Handbook of India 1954-55, it appears from the statement of Rev. R.C. Das that there is a large number of unattached evangelists. Rev. Das?s statement receives support from the remark made in the Compiler?s introduction to the Christian Hand-Book of India 1954-55 that the increased personnel has occurred in the smaller Missions most of which do not yet have any organised Churches.?74
The methods of proselytisation had remained the same as in days of old. The Report gave concrete instances of how mission schools were used to influence the minds of young people. Harijan and ?Adivasi? students came in for special attention. They were ?given free boarding, lodging and books? provided they attended Christian prayers. Bible classes were made compulsory by treating as absent for the whole day those students who failed to be present in those classes. School celebrations were used for showing the victory of the cross over all other symbols. Hospitals were used for putting pressure on poor class patients to embrace Christianity. The richest harvest, however, was reaped in mission orphanages which collected orphans during famines and other natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes. ?No wonder,? observed the Report, ?that the largest number of converts are from such backward classes living in areas where due to various causes only Mission schools and hospitals exist. Most conversions have been doubtless insincere admittedly brought about in expectation of social service benefits and other material considerations.?75
Another device employed for proselytisation was money-lending. Roman Catholic missions had specialised in this field. Poor people often approached the local missionary for loans which were written off if the debtor became a convert; otherwise he had to repay it with interest which were often found difficult. Protestant missionaries and others cited before the Committee instances of how this method worked. One of the conditions forgetting a loan, for instance, was that the recipient agreed to chop off the topknot (choti), the symbol of his being a Hindu. ?Some of the people,? the Report noted, ?who had received loans were minors and casual labourers. It also appeared that when one member of a family had taken a loan, all the other members of that family were entered in the book as potential converts. The rate of interest charged was 10 per cent and in a large number of cases ex amined, one year?s interest was deducted in advance. On being questioned, the people without any hesitation, said that their only purpose in going to the Mission had been to get money; and all said that without the lure of money none would have sought to become Christian.?76 Some other allurements such as the ?promise of gift of salt, plough, bullocks and even milk powder received from abroad? were used to the same effect.77
There were several other ways of attracting converts. For instance, the new converts were employed as pracharaks on salaries ranging from Rs. 40/- to Rs. 100/- per month. This by itself proved an attractive proposition to those who were not in a position or qualified to earn even Rs. 20/-. Christians working in various government departments were exhorted and expected to participate in the game. Those who did not help were cursed in missionary publications. Christians placed in higher positions and missionaries who became influential members of the Janapad Sabhas put pressure on junior officers for influencing people in favour of Christianity.
The Report also noted ?various methods of propagating Christianity.?78 Missionary publications ?attacked idol worship in rather offensive terms.? Dramas in which idol worship was ridiculed were performed in schools and elsewhere. Songs to the same effect were composed and sung. Rama was ?described as a God who destroyed Ravan and was contrasted with Jesus who died for the wicked.? Methods evolved for conveying Christianity in Hindu cultural forms were also in evidence. Some of them were plainly dishonest, as for instance, ?the expression occurring in Tulsidas?s Ramayan, viz. ?Gidapujan? was interpreted to the people as ?Girjaghar? i.e., a Church.?79 But, on the whole, preference was given to vicious attacks on Hindui sm, which was held up as a false religion. ?Such virulent and sinister attacks on Hinduism,? observed the Report, ?are in no way a departure from the manner which characterised the Christian preaching in the past, which Gandhiji referred to, particularly Bishop Heber?s famous hymn, ?where every prospect pleases and only man is vile?.?80
The Report contained a section on Mass Conversions brought about by material inducements. ?If conversion is an individual act,? it noted, ?one would expect deep thought and study of the particular religion one wanted to embrace. But what we have found is groups of illiterate Adivasis, with families and children getting their topknots cut and being shown as Christians. Most of them do not know even the rudiments of the new religion… The Government has supplied us with a list of persons recently converted in the Surguja district after the promulgation of the Constitution. A perusal thereof will show that about 4000 Uraons were converted in two years. Persons of varying ages from 60 years to 1 year are shown as converts and the list includes women and children also. We have met many Uraons in the course of our tours and we were struck very much by their total absence of religious feeling.?81
The Committee had ?reliable information that Mission organisations possess upto-date records of Baptisms.?82 But they refused to produce these records. ?It would not be unsafe,? concluded the Report, ?to presume that the reluctance on the part of the Roman Catholic Mission organisations to produce such evidence was in no small measure due to the fear of the Truth being out? As a rule, groups have been converted, and we find ?individual conversion? has been an exception rather than the rule. We have come across cases of individual conversions only of persons who are village leaders and they have invariably been followed by ?Mass conversions? of the entire village soon after. We have not found it possible to accept the contention that the immediate material prosperity of these converted leaders bore no causal relation to their conversions.?83
The Report expressed the view that conversions led directly to denationalisation. Greetings such as ?Ram Ram? and ?Jai Hind? were substituted with ?Jai Yeshu?. ?The idea of the unique Lordship of Christ,? recorded the Report, ?is propagated in rural areas by the exhibition of the film ?King of Kings?, which we had the pleasure of witnessing at Buldana. The supremacy of the Christian flag over the National flag of India was also depicted in the drama which was staged in a school at Jabaipur.?84 The missionary paper, Nishkalanka, had written, ?Why does India desire that Portugal which has been exercising sovereignty for 400 years over Goa should surrender it? The fact is that a large majority of residents of Goa are quite contented with their present condition. Only a handful of Goans resident in Goa and in India are shouting for the merger of Goa with India. This attitude is not justified and those who are following this course are giving unrighteous lead to India.?85 The missions thus sided with Western imperialism and pooh-poohed India?s aspiration to reclaim national territory under foreign occupation.
Finally, the Report found no substance in the Christian complaint that the Government of Madhya Pradesh was following a policy of discrimination against Christians. ?The Government of Madhya Pradesh,? it said, ?have throughout followed a policy of absolute neutrality and non-interference in matters concerning religion and allegations of discrimination against Christians and harassment of them by Government officials have not been established. Such allegations have been part of the old established policy of the Missions to overawe local authority and to carry on propaganda in foreign countries.?86
The Report was quite clear in its larger perceptions. ?Evangelisation in India,? it said, ?appears to be part of the uniform world policy to revive Christendom for re-establishing Western supremacy and is not prompted by spiritual motives. The objective is to disrupt the solidarity of the non-Christian societies, and the mass conversion of a considerable section of Adivasis with this ulterior motive is fraught with danger to the security of the State.?87 The Christian missions were making a deliberate and determined ?attempt to alienate Indian Christian Community from their nation.?88 The Community was most likely to become a victim of foreign manipulations in times of crisis.89 The history of the Christian missions provided ample proof that religion had been used for political purposes.90 Evangelization was not a religious philosophy but a force for politicisation.91 The Church in India was not independent but accountable to those who paid for its upkeep. The concept of ?Partnership in Obedience? which covered the flow of foreign finances to the Church was of a piece with the strategy of Subsidiary Alliances which the East India Company had employed earlier for furthering and consolidating its conquests.92 And conversions were nothing but politics by other means.93
The recommendations made by the Report followed logically from these perceptions. It recommended that (1) those missionaries whose primary object is proselytisation should be asked to withdraw and the large influx of foreign missionaries should be checked; (2) the use of medical and other professional services as a direct means of making conversions should be prohibited by law; (3) attempts to convert by force or fraud or material inducements, or by taking advantage of a person?s inexperience or confidence or spiritual weakness or thoughtlessness, or by penetrating into the religious conscience of persons for the purpose of consciously altering their faith, should be absolutely prohibited; (4) the Constitution of India should be amended in order to rule out propagation by foreigners and conversions by force, fraud and other illicit means; (5) legislative measures should be enacted for controlling conversion by illegal means; (6) rules relating to registration of doctors, nurses and other personnel employed in hospitals should be suitably amended to provide a condition against evangelistic activities during professional service; and (7) circulation of literature meant for religious propaganda without approval of the State Government should be prohibited.94
Comment by Vinay | September 29, 2008
I request all netizens to go to Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia. Mallu priests in collaboration with some American Baptists are indulging in anti-India and anti-Hindu propaganda on that site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_Karnataka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_violence_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orissa_communal_violence
Please go to the sites and edit away all anti-India stuff in there.
If we do not do so, all that faecal matter would remain there as history. Please, please help!!
Comment by R Sajan | October 4, 2008
@ Sajan,
I went to a few of the above links to check and edit, if necessary.
However, the three links that I checked (India, Karnataka, Orissa) all seem to list facts/actual events. There was no opinion expressed there, only facts and dates summarising the events that have occurred. And, neither are the links disputed as every event/fact seems to be supported by sources.
So, are you saying that only a rose-tinted vision of India should be allowed to exist? Or do you not understand the concept of Wikipedia?
Comment by Patriot | October 4, 2008
Vinay, Sajan and Patriot: Thanks for your comments…
***
@ Sajan: I will have a look at the links but as Patriot says, if they are merely stating facts, you cannot really *edit* them…
***
Separately, many of you will find this two news-snippets interesting:
Translated bible rocks Jharkhand assembly
…Chandresh Oraon, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) legislator, moved the motion to stop work in the assembly on Tuesday and demanded a debate on the lines in the translated Bible that call for destroying tribals’ places of worship.
The book in Kuduk language, one of the main tribal languages in Jharkhand, has been brought out by the Bible Society of India (BSI). The translated version reportedly says: “Destroy the trees and Sarna (tribals’ worship places).”
…Deputy Chief Minister Stephen Marandi said: “We admit the fault. Wrong translation of Bible has been done by BSI.
“The state government will recall the translated version of the book and take suitable action against the publisher,” he added.
Marandi, however, did not clarify what action would be taken against the publishers.
***
From Missionaries apologise to Jharkhand Adivasis
Ranchi : Following strict warnings from leaders of Sarna Dharm , Church leaders and Bible Soceity of India rendered their apologies for hurting the sentiments of Sarna Dharm followers
…The Samiti president, Ajay Tirkey, secretary Budhu Bhagat and some others at a press conference in Jhakhra Kumba near Veer Shivaji Chowk on Tuesday evening said the Bible in the name of “Nemha Bible”published by the Bible Society of India,Bangalore,intentionally carried insulting messages against the Sarna believers.
The Bible written in the Kudukh language, on page 230 , contained abusive language that could disturb the peace of Jharkhand, added the Sarna leaders. They said they were hurt and the government despite their month long request, had done little to assuage their sentiments. They would launch a violent protest if the Bible Society or the Christian leaders did not apologise to the Sarnas.
Following this warning,The adamant Christian Missionaries who held a deaf ear to all peaceful requests from Sarna leaders were quick yesterday to render apology…
…In a statement issued today, the church leaders and the Bible Society of India again tendered a public apology for the “objectionable passages” in the Kurukh version of the Bible.
…This is the second time within a span of seven days that a public apology was issued jointly by the Bible Society of India and church leaders belonging to the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches in Ranchi.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 4, 2008
This short article by Khushwant Singh appeared in Hindustan Times - Delhi edition, on October 4th, 2008.
With Malice Towards one and ALL - Faith, no more
RECENT INCIDENTS of violence and vandalism against Christians and their churches deserve to be condemned unreservedly. They have blackened the fair face of Mother India and ruined the reputation of Hindus being the most religiously tolerant people in the world. At the same time, we must take a closer look at people who convert from one faith to another.
To start with, let it be understood that these days there are no forced conversions anywhere in the world. India is no exception. Those who assert that the poor, innocent and ignorant of India are being forced to accept Christianity are blatant liars. A few, very few educated and well-to-do men and women convert to another faith when they do not find solace in the faith of their ancestors. Examples are to be found in America and Europe of men and women of substance turning from Judaism and Christianity to Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Sikhism.
There are also men and women who convert to the faith of those they wish to marry We have plenty of cases of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Sikh inter-marriages. However, the largest number of converts come from communities discriminated against. The outstanding example was that of Dalit leader Bhimrao Ambedkar who led his Mahar community to embrace Buddhism because they were discriminated against by upper caste Hindus.
This is also true of over 90 per cent of Indian Muslims whose ancestors being lower caste embraced Islam which gave them equal status. That gives lie to the often-repeated slander that Islam made converts by the sword.
An equally large number of people converted out of gratitude. They were neglected, ignorant and poor, when strangers came to look after them, opened schools and hospitals for them, taught them, healed them and helped them to stand on their own feet to hold their heads high, they felt grateful towards their benefactors. Most of them were Christian missionaries who worked in remote villages and brought hope to the lives of people who were deprived of hope.
To this day Christian missionaries run the best schools, colleges and hospitals in our country They are inexpensive and free of corruption. They get converts because of the sense of gratitude they generate. Can this be called forcible conversion? Why don’t the great champions of Hinduism look within their hearts and find out why so many are disenchanted by their pretensions of piety? Let them first set their own houses in order, purge the caste system out of Hindu society and welcome with open arms al1those who wish to join them.
No one will then convert from Hinduism to another religion.
Comment by Objective Eye | October 5, 2008
Objective Eye: Thanks for the article…It is exactly these kind of questions that need to be asked…
Blaming others is always easy…looking within oneself requires courage..
More on the points raised by Khushwant Singh later…
Comment by B Shantanu | October 5, 2008
@Objective Eye
Can you please read this link. It describes the translation of tribal language Kuduk in to English. If you are sure of what you are posting and commenting here than read with your own eyes. And copy was translated in Jarkhand Assembly.
http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=986&Itemid=
Comment by Indian | October 6, 2008
Dont miss this reading! Its by Francois Gautier
http://dev.hinduismtoday.com/modules/wordpress/hindu-press-international/2008/10/05/journalist-francois-gautier-on-source-of-hindu-christian-violence-in-karnataka/
“I am also aghast at the one-sided coverage by the Indian media of the Christian- Hindu problem: blasts after blasts have killed hundreds of innocent Hindus in Varanasi, Delhi, Mumbai train blasts, Jaipur, etc. Yet, neither Manmohan Singh nor Sonia Gandhi have pronounced once the word “terrorism.” But when furious Hindus, tired of being made fun of, of witnessing their brothers and sisters converted by financials traps, of seeing a 84-year-old swami and his Mataji brutally murdered, of reading blasphemy about their Gods, vent their anger against churches, many of them makeshifts, the Indian government goes after the soft target which the Hindus are.
Comment by Indian | October 6, 2008
Beware of Hindu-name covert christians.
How many Hindus know, Pranoy Roy of infamous anti-Hindu NDTV channel is a convert christian? I doubt not even by few Hindus. We Hindus need to wake up!
Pranoy Roy profile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prannoy_Roy
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Prannoy_Roy
———
Prannoy Roy
Born Prannoy Roy
March 7, 1949 (1949-03-07)
Calcutta, India
Occupation Journalist
Spouse Radhika Roy (married 1983)
Religious belief(s) Christian
Notable credit(s) World this week,
——
PS. It is not what his faith is our concern, but his actions. His actions are anti-Hindu to the core.
Comment by Bharat | October 6, 2008
@ Bharat
So you want everyone to be pro-Hindu? For WHAT GOOD reason?
And who “Forced” or “Induced” Pranoy to convert?
Comment by Pratyush | October 6, 2008
What made Hindus angry in Karnataka
…
Neither the Indian press nor the western correspondents bothered to write about what made Hindus angry in Karnataka: Newlife, one important westernfunded missionary centre ( http://www.newlifevoice.org), began making conversions in and around Mangalore by accosting poor people in market areas, or in bus stands, befriending them and then taking them to churches to introduce them to the father.
Upon introduction they were paid Rs 2,500 per person and then taken to the Velankanni shrine, in Tamil Nadu, where they would get another Rs. 3,000.
When they finally converted to Christianity by changing the name, they got an incentive of Rs 10,000 onwards.
Newlife would then give them instructions to abandon wearing tilak on forehead, not to visit and offer prayers at the Hindu temples, replacing the photos and idols of Hindu gods and goddesses with a Cross, etc.
read here.
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=oqi6n5w6kGE%3d&Title=What+made+Hindus+angry+in+Karnataka&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo%3d&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo%3d&SEO=NEW+LIFE&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik%3d
Comment by Bharat | October 6, 2008
@ Bharat
Good story, courtesy François Gautier, a known Christian basher.
Comment by Pratyush | October 6, 2008
About François Gautier: So much for his credibility on any of his writings.
He is a staunch supporter of Hindu nationalist movements and has written many books on Hinduism, Indian politics and Hindutva. Among his books are “Un autre Regard sur l’Inde” (Editions du Tricorne, Geneva-Paris); “Arise O India” (Har Anand 1999), “Cry O my bloved India”, “A Western journalist on India” (Har-Anand 2001), “India’s Self Denial (Editions Auroville Press, 2001) and “Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, a guru of Joy” (India Today Book Club, 2002).
For more details check the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francois_Gautier
Comment by Pratyush | October 6, 2008
http://www.fact-india.com/news.php
Check this Link to see where does Francois Gautier’s “neutrality” lie. He is a staunch Hindu to the core, so why use so many of his write ups and links to drive home any point.
Why doesn’t anyone just use ones own arguments without using already biased links of Francois Gautier. And his links had been used so often in this blog as if it is a neutral write-up.
Comment by Objective Eye | October 6, 2008
Dear Sir,
I do not need a noted Hindu basher and congress psychopant like Khushwant teach me about Hinduism vis a vis Xtianity with respect to service.
Prior to the advent of the so called great service rendered by the Xtian’s let me tell you there were enough of the rest houses available for people wherever they went.
The principle of Hindu philosophy as regards is “Athithi Devo Bhava”. Which means that the guest is treated like GOD!
Even the HATED MANU, of this type of fraternity, has always advised thousands of years ago that guests are to be treated as GODS!
Schooling. Everybody knew their trade and none was the worse for it. These current do gooders know only one type of education that which the Britishers wanted for their Clerical slave market. Even today they advocate it as being the best without recourse.
I am reminded of a statement in Pygmalion of GBS in which Eliza Doolitile states to Prof. Higgins “you have now made me so educated that I CANNOT EVEN SELL FLOWERS for a living.
That is the status many of the poor educated Indians are in now. They will slog for fifteen hours just to avoid their work as techicians, on the farms, as painters, carpenters or anything.
If this is said, then these do gooders will harp upon the supposed Caste system. A System which these do gooders did not understand but used it for their nefarious activities. We Indians swallowed it hook line and sinker as it came from the mouth of a white man.
Coming to medicines the first of the best of medical life has been proved to be Ayurveda. Many of the Ayurvedic Doctors were, sadly for the dogooders were not Brahmins, the symbol; of hatred for these do gooders.
Ayurvedic doctors were not taught to earn money through their treatments. they were to take what was given to them. The true Hippocratic oath was known to them. They did not make money on the illness as most of these do gooders are known for.
All this hogwash is only an eyewash. The real truth is that history has been distorted to such a great extent that these lies, that as if only these xtians brought caring to this world, exists.
Let us not lose hope and fight this cancer that is trying to destroy this great way of life as these xtians have done of great civilisations in many parts of the world.
Many of the bloggers are happy that you are trying to come out with the truth. WE WILL FIGHT THIS DISTORTION and many of us are with you Shantanu Saab!
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | October 6, 2008
Quick comment…(mainly for Pratyush and Objective Eye): Why do Francois Gautier’s writings on Hinduism make his “facts” suspect?
The comment/link by Bharat )#33) explicitly mentions place names and currency amounts…
Is it not worthwhile to get to the bottom of this?
Comment by B Shantanu | October 6, 2008
Objective Eye
You want hindus to be defenseless! Can I ask why? What kind of arguments and debates you want that is natural?. Why everything which is said against christianity is wrong and everything that is said against Hindus is correct? What you want to suggest us? We have all right to protect our Dharama. Hindus never indulged in cheap conversion profession. Dont you think that is point of admiration rather than defending Christians. By the way we dont have anything against christians but only with the part of them who are engaged in such cheap method of conversion. Forget about indians, even chriatians condemn this kind of conversion activities that is well flourished all over the world.
Comment by Indian | October 7, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
@ Shantanu,
GREAT! I am happy that you believe in ‘Facts and Statistics’. Be Consistent then, brother, in your approach towards all FACTS and STATISTICS.
Here’s one for your kind consideration:
CHRISTIAN POPULATION AS PER CENSUS
1971 2.59%
1981 2.43%
1991 2.32%
2001 2.04%
As per Justice Wadhwa Commission Report, Between 1991 to 1998 the Hindu Population rose by 2.52% whereas the Christian population rose by 0.008%.
***
The constitution of India provides ample safeguards against fraudulent conversions. There are enough laws to punish some one involved in forced conversions.
Several states have passed laws aiming at “preventing conversion through force, fraud and inducement”
Why then not use the Law to punish if one has found a ‘GENUINE’ case of forced conversion?
STILL IN THE PAST SIX DECADES OF INDEPENDENT INDIA’S HISTORY NOT A SINGLE CASE OF FORCED OR FRAUDULENT CONVERSION WAS PROVED/PROSECUTED
Comment by Harsh | October 7, 2008
IS SPREADING FAITH A CRIME? History Says NO!
• From India, the Hinduism spread to Malay Peninsula, Cambodia, Annam, Sumatra, Java, Bali and Borneo besides the Indian Sub-continent.
• From India, the Buddhism spread to China, Korea, Japan, Sri Lanka, Tibet, Myanmar, Thailand and Vietnam.
• From Arabia, the Islam spread to Asia and Africa.
• From Israel Christianity spread to Europe & America
Comment by Objective Eye | October 7, 2008
IS PREACHING ONE’S FAITH TO OTHERS WRONG? NO! All religious scriptures teach it, not just the Bible!
Its true that the Christians obey Bible’s teachings and hence preach more than others do.
“May the active be Glorifying God, Arianising all” (Rig Veda 9.63.5)
“May I speak these blissful words to my own people and the foreigner” (Yajur Veda 26.1-2)
“For this purpose was I born, and to spread this religion God appointed me”. - Guru Govind Singh
“You must go out to preach your religion, preach it to every nation under the sun”. - Swami Vivekananda
Comment by Pratyush | October 7, 2008
Missed out this one:
“Go into all lands and preach this gospel. Tell them that the poor and the lowly, the rich and the high are one”. - The Buddha
Comment by Pratyush | October 7, 2008
*** NOTE by MODERATOR ***
@ Harsh: Please avoid posting the same comment twice on another post…Provide a link if you need to refer to it again.
Thanks.
Comment by Harsh | October 7, 2008
Dear Sir,
I request you to go to the blogspot viveka-jyothi and the letter and resolution drafted by the do gooders with the parish leaders in attendance, which calls for the killing by the poor parishoners, of the Hindu Leader Lakshminanda Saraswathi is available for viewing.
The actual letter written is available as a scanned copy.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | October 7, 2008
@ Harsh (#40): Not sure why you quoted the number of Christians here…The figures are for the population across India…If you look deeper, this is what you find:
(from the same article by Francois Gautier cited by Bharat at # 33)
Secondly, yes, sure the constitution provides adequate safeguards against fraudulent conversions..Yet both you and I know very well how the legals system works in India…
Does that mean the people should take the law in their own hands? No.
Separately do you think that paying people to convert is a good thing? (re. comment # 33)? Does it constitute conversion through inducement?
If you ask me, the only long-term solution to these issues is for clear-thinking, law-abiding citizens to get into politics and change things…
Discussions on this blog will not change the reality on the ground…Beyond a point, these are only words…
***
@ Objective Eye and Pratyush: No, spreading/preaching faith is not a crime - and should not be…But we do need some safeguards - which in most cases already exist…
They have rarely been used/challenged…but that is really not the point…
The point is that when aggressive evangelical tactics are used… when other faiths are openly denigrated (as in case of New Life publications) and/or inducements are made, then the matter acquires another dimension…
What do you have to say on the New Life pamphlets/booklets?
***
@ VCK: Do you have the link to the post? Thanks.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 7, 2008
Dear Sir,
This ia an extract from the “Wise and otherwise”, A Salute to Life, by Ms. Sudha Murthy, the wife of Shri. Narayanmurthy, founder of Infosys Ltd.
This a part of the essay writgten in Chapter 6 “An old Man’s Ageless wisdom”.
She has travelled all over India in her quest for truth and to use her talents as the founder of the Infosys Foundation, for the betterment of Society and India in particular.
In the part she travels to Orissa” The least developed state in India”. She goes to a tribal village in a district known as Kalahandi and this is what she has to say as she comes into contact with a tribal elder and her translator conveys to her what the old Tribal “Uneducated Elder” has to say;
She gives him some notes of money and says that with these papers he can buy “Firewood, Lots of saris, bags of Salt, matchsticks and even A PIECE OF LAND!
The Tribal elder looks at her sympathetically and says” For this paper people go away from our ancestral land, leave our forests and go to the cities. Have we not led a “Complete Life” without this paper? Our ancestors did.
We are children of of God, settled happily without this paper. This is God’s land. Nobody owns this land. No river is created by us. No mountain is made by us. The wind does not listen to us. The rain does not ask our permission. These are gifts of God.
How can we ’sell’ or ‘buy’ land? I do not understand. When nothing is yours, then how can you make such transactions? The little paper of yours can turn our lives upside down.
The question she raises; Who is wise? The old man or us with our fingers on the pulse of the internet!
This is the quintessence of the way of life in India. Call it Hinduism if you want it.
These are the same words that an Old Native India Chief of the US natives asked a representative of the government when they wanted to accquire the land that belonged to the NATIVES BY HOOK OR BY CROOK.
Has all this education really given us a better life? The richest country in the world is in dolddrums and people very “Educated” are living on the streets and in Tents, with their lives turned upside down.
If the paper they held in the form of degrees was so powerful why is it happening?>
These are people like doctors, Teachers, Executives and the likes. They were educated; They were leaders in the sense of the world, then why it did happen to them? If they could not guide themselves how can they guide others?Today we have the dogooders come on the scene who promise a better life with education! Can it always be true?
They are supposed to provide better health. By the way the Tribal Elder wasa supposed to be more than a hundred yearts old without a single strand of white hair. May be genetic disorder prevented his hair from becoming white!That is why Jesus said, Remove the beam in your eye before you remove the mote in the otherman’s eye.
Conversions do not give solutions. Conversions only lead top heartburns. People live a way of life they like.
Leave the people alone. Let them live their lives.
Nobody reqiures salvation. If they need it they will find it.
Live and let live. Leave one to his own belief. If they are condemned to go to anywhere let them be. Leave them alone.
Then we do not need a new political party. We need acceptance of everyway of life.
No only one way of life.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | October 7, 2008
We have heard a lot about Newlife and their blasphemous writings and pamphlets about hinduism and hindu gods - now:
1. I presume all of this happened in Karnataka
2. There is a BJP government in power in Karnataka
3. I believe that the BJP claims that it is ready to act in the hindu interest?
4. So, then why were all the pastors of newlife not arrested and put behind bars? and, all the centres shut down. Clearly, they were violating the law and could be punished by the govt?
5. No, instead the lumpens were let loose. Why? Is that a tacit admission that the BJP does not have the guts to take on egregious conversions in its own name? That it does not have the guts to provide law and order (for which it is ready to blame other parties at the drop of a hat).
All those supporting the lumpen Bajrang Dal actions in Karnataka need to answer the above questions first. Else, you are no better than the islamic terrorists that you denounce.
And, you know what? If the govt had followed the law, the established Christian organisations in India (both protestant and catholic) would have joined hands with the govt and said that yes, this was correct. They can not stand these aggressive evangelicals and born-again christians either, and believe that they give their community a bad name. Instead what happened? You have lumpens running riots and the entire christian community crying foul and India being rubbished on the world stage.
Think about it.
Comment by Patriot | October 7, 2008
Conversion has nothing to do with Karnataka or BJP or Hindus. It is wilddpread all over the world. I agree if converson is taking place where people has no religion of their own. But here they are going to everyone even those who have their own religion.
“Lumpen” Who?those who killed swami? Why did that lumpen did not go to govt complaing about Swami? Why do they have to kill someone? Law applies to all not to any single community. If doing riots is as much condemnable,than killing is something more than riots. If this peaceloving evengalists is provoking killing and riots than it is not peace loving org at all.
Comment by Indian | October 7, 2008
[...] Missionaries Target India @ http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/19/missionaries-targeting-india-3/#comment-14593 [...]
Pingback by ** Secularism and Project Joshua « INDIA SECULAR | October 8, 2008
@Indian:
“Conversion has nothing to do with Karnataka or BJP or Hindus. It is wilddpread all over the world. I agree if converson is taking place where people has no religion of their own. But here they are going to everyone even those who have their own religion.”
Says who? Who gives you the right to decide where conversions may take place and where they may not? The constitution of India clearly says that every citizen of India has freedom of religion (including the right to change or convert). So, who are you to take away the rights enshrined in the constitution.
Comment by Patriot | October 8, 2008
@ VCK:
“The Tribal elder looks at her sympathetically and says” …….. How can we ’sell’ or ‘buy’ land? I do not understand. When nothing is yours, then how can you make such transactions? The little paper of yours can turn our lives upside down.”
Thanks for sharing this with us. Lovely.
Comment by Patriot | October 8, 2008
Each year, the Government of India’s Ministry of Home Affairs releases a report (URL below) entitled, “Receipt of Foreign Contributions by Voluntary Associations.
Following are the Associations which receive the funds
Gospel Fellowship Trust India, USA — $60,305,263
Gospel for Asia, USA — $36,100,000
Plan International, UK — $29,257,895
Foundation Vicent E Ferrer, Alicante, Spain — $27,428,947
Christian Aid, UK — $21,094,737
Miseror Mozartstrasse, Germany — $20,457,895
Foundacion Vicente Ferrer, Madrid, Spain — $20,118,421
Oxfam, UK — $19,721,053
NOVIB, Netharlands — $19,321,053
Deptt for International Devpt (DFID), UK — $15,723,684
Kindemothilfe, Germany — $14,318,421
Save the Children Fund, UK — $13,594,737
Manos Unidas, Spain — $13,050,000
Missio, Germany — $12,900,000
Population Service International USA — $12,826,316
Total funds sent to India: — $336,218,421
…
Most of the donations go toward relief work, rural development, medicine and education. “Maintenance of priests/preachers/other religious functionaries” is 15th on the list of purposes, receiving $21 million dollars of all foreign funding.
Of the fifteen top donor agencies given eight are Christian, seven are secular and none are Hindu.
Following are the examples of intent given by these organizations themselves. Gospel Missions of India (GMI), “stays abreast of the work of the missionaries and ministries in India to ensure that gifts are faithfully invested for the Lord’s work”. Gospel for Asia is a Texas-based Christian missionary organization whose, “Focus and goal as a ministry is to reach the 2.7 billion people in the 10/40 window who have never heard about the love of God. In India alone, there are over 500,000 villages with no Gospel witness.” These paragraphs are self explanatory about the real intent which is proselytisation through use of these funds. It is not service for the sake of service as the ground reality in Bharat shows.
The report is available on http://mha.gov.in/fcra/annual/ar2005-06.pdf
Comment by R R | October 8, 2008
@ vck: These concluding lines from your comment above (#47) need to be repeated and emphasised, again and again…
Superb.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 8, 2008
@Shantanu and VCK:
I don’t think you guys understand the spirit and emotions behind proselytisation by Christians (mainly catholics and born-agains) - their gospel tells them to go out and spread the word to those who have not heard it. Their gospel exhorts them to try and help redeem people in the name of the saviour. Their gospel tells them that only those who believe in the lord will be saved, and everyone else condemned to purgatory and it is their christian DUTY to save others’ souls.
Have you ever been to a catholic church mass? Among the prayers they offer to the lord on a daily basis is one which says “We pray, O Lord, that those who do not know you may get to know you and be saved for eternal life” (or words to that effect).
So, Proselytisation is a very active element of the Christian faith - and under the Indian constitution, it is considered to be part of our religious freedoms - to preach and convert.
Comment by Patriot | October 8, 2008
Dear Patriot
If what you say is true then there is case to reconsider such a constitutional guarantee. Any activity that cannot be reasonably addressed in the spirit of secular democracy - to which every religion in India must subordinate - must be curtailed in the interests of secularism and democracy.
Your democratic right is to practise your religion within the golden rule of ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ - which means we cannot have a situation where money and organisation (funded in proselytizers’ cases by foreign organistions) engages in a ‘battle for souls’ which can easily spill over into violence - Unless you feel that teh Hindus should also pour money and organisation into the conversion and re-conversion game which is cutting through India’s social fabric.
There is a fundamental disease that needs to be identified and treated - and unchecked politicking of a religious kind clearly gnaws at our secular democracy’s roots
Comment by Tatichawla | October 8, 2008
@Patriot and others
If constitution is providing this right, than why do Hindus, Sikhs, Jain, Parsis, Jews, Buddhists are not engaged in such low activity? It is true that their gospel openly says that, but christians too have not understood this gospel. It was meant for those who are religiousless in conducts, those who are not fearing God. Constitutional Privileges are not for taking advantages they are their for freedom. That is Live and Let Live others. I have personally come across this prosylitisation people. I know their mind and behaviour. And at the end I proved them I am superior in my conducts and behaviour than what they were preaching me. They just look at loop holes in our govt and finds that hinduism is not working. Actually Hinduism is at its best, its govt who is not god fearing and religious( religion doesnot meant perticular faith, it should work on the ground of humanity, which is already describd in hinduism and it also covers other religions) not working for the people.
I agree with VCK has mentioned in his comment.
Comment by Indian | October 8, 2008
Christianity is just a front for neo colonialism. Look around you.
Communism is a way of cleaning house before introducing christianity
Comment by Nishka | October 8, 2008
@Nishka:
“Christianity is just a front for neo colonialism. Look around you.”
What a wonderful, wonderful comment. And, how this for a companion comment:
Hinduism is a just a front for women-bashing and caste-based slavery. Look around you.
@Tati Chawla:
Yes, indeed, proselytisation is a small but key part of the gospel of christians. Catholics take it seriously, protestants and lutherans generally can not be bothered about it, born-again sects are the biggest evangelisers.
You raise some good points and I will express my opinions on them:
1. Does the Constitution need to be changed to take care of evangelising christians?
No, we have sufficient safeguards and laws to ensure that conversions do not take place due to force. The key is to apply the law when the evidence exists (as the sangh parivar claims it does and in abundance), and get these organisations proscribed and the pastors thrown into jail, instead of going about breaking prayer halls and raping women. Given the nature of evidence that the lumpen Bajrang Dal is talking about, this should be very simple - the people of this country need to think very carefully about why is it that they are not the legal route? What prevents them from going to the law? Is the evidence manufactured, then?
2. Is money as an inducement for conversions “right” and legal?
Money or other goods, as an inducement for conversions, is illegal under our laws. And, this is difficult to prove. But, the sangh parivar has been exercised over the morality of the issue - so let us examine that separately.
If a man is starving, and someone offers him a steady income on the condition that the converts, and he converts - is that immoral behaviour on part of the hungry man? In a previous post, a blogger mentioned about regular salaries, etc, which are higher than the prevailing local rates as an inducement.
How can you condemn or criticise the man who converts to save himself and his family from hunger, from poverty, to live a life of greater dignity? Especially so, when his alleged *co-religionists* did not do anything to help him with his poverty, either before or after the evangelists arrived?
And, would I condemn the evangelists who are using money to add to their flock? If I look at the overall picture, I would not - because they are providing a livelihood to people without one, dignity to people without, and a chance of a brighter life to their children because the parent(s) are earning now. So, what if this happens under a christian umbrella instead of a hindu one? The hindus were not bothered about their less-priviledged and hungry brethren before the evangelists arrived.
And, finally, do you think conversions that happen due to money are true conversions to a faith? Of the heart? If not, then why are you concerned? And, if yes, then also why are you concerned? Doesn’t sanatana dharma say there are many routes to God - surely christianity is then one of them? So, why are you bothered about what labels people stick on themselves, if you are a true sanatana dharmi?
Loads of contradictions here, folks.
Finally, we have so many people on this blog and other blogs exercised and agitated about their precious hindus being converted - the question for them is what have you folks done to eradicate the caste system, to give these downtrodden people a chance to live their lifes with dignity, without hunger and a future for their children?
3. “unchecked politicking of a religious kind clearly gnaws at our secular democracy’s roots”
I agree with you fully on this - Politicians have used religion for their nefarious purposes, and religion has only been too happy to mix up with politics.
If we are to truly establish a secular republic, then we have to look to France as the guiding example. And, ditch the definition of Nehru who say “secularim means equal respect for all religions”. What crap.
Secularism means the separation of the state from religion, and that the state will not recognise/respect any religion as a state religion and will not allow any interference of religion in state matters.
That is the goal that we have to aim for. Get the state out of religion (haj subsidies, temple trusts, etc) and get all religious matters out of state (no hindu rashtra, etc)
Cheers
Comment by Patriot | October 10, 2008
Hi Patriot,
Thanks for your views. I have one important point which I want you to re-consider
You say if a man is starving and is given food (or a job) with strings attached that he converts there is nothing inherently wrong. While the poor man who sells his ’soul’ or vote for economic gain is not to be judged or blamed this is hardly a moral or ethical act on part of the one offering help with strings attached. To justify this as good since the poor man’s co-religionists have not been quicker of the mark in offering this inducement to stay or convert is hardly much of an argument when this is the State’s duty to offer employment and uplift out of economic backwardness. We cannot and must not view the problem of economic or social backwardness from Hindu vs. Christian vs. Muslim perspective. Such divisiveness that leads to conflict and competitiveness is hardly conducive to any form of social and community-and-community harmony.
Secularism as in separation of religion and state (as you rightly point out the example of France) is ONLY way to protect a secular democracy. In fact that’s what secularism has always meant till vested vote-bank politics re-interpreted Nehru’s ‘equal respect’ definition. To my mind religions are by design divisive. Sanatana Dharma historically wasn’t really so only because it practised an inclusiveness of all religions in India which it saw as the starting point for sublimation and transcendence into the spiritual. Spirituality is by definition non-divisive seeking the One which cannot be named or labeled - its beyond the mind in any case! One only needs to check out spiritual traditions from virtually any source to realize this! But once organization and political ambition make an entry the transcendent spiritual is short-circuited. Well-meaning supporters of VHP, BD would do well not let Sanatana Dharma go the way other religions and remain what it was prior to the 20th Century.
As to what ‘Hindus’ have not done or done regarding their caste system a little introspection/investigation will show it is not so much a Hindu problem as an Indian problem - of racism - and its something which is being addressed by the Constitution and by increasing use of reason and mental maturity. Converting to other systems - as a counterpoint I could call them medieval religions - is simply not a mature solution. Casteism or racism needs to be grown out of through education, scientific temper and maturity - I don’t really see any role for divisive exclusivist religions in this honestly.
Comment by Tatichawla | October 10, 2008
Dear Tati Chawla,
Sorry for the delayed response, but I missed this somehow.
“While the poor man who sells his ’soul’ or vote for economic gain is not to be judged or blamed this is hardly a moral or ethical act on part of the one offering help with strings attached. To justify this as good since the poor man’s co-religionists have not been quicker of the mark in offering this inducement to stay or convert is hardly much of an argument when this is the State’s duty to offer employment and uplift out of economic backwardness. ”
You make some very interesting points in a cogent manner. Let me explain my position on the above points:
First, I do not accept or believe that it is the duty of the state/government to offer employment to the poor or uplift them out of poverty. I think the govt is singularly ill-equipped to carry out poverty alleviation and the last 60 years should prove this adequately - the only people who have gotten rich out of poverty alleviation schemes have been the brokers, agents, politicians and bureaucrats. Not the poor. So, we discard this as a basis for arguments. Personally, I believe that the state’s duty is to provide law and order, an efficient justice system and a proper “environment” for individuals to flourish. Then, they will take care of it themselves. You should visit http://freedomteam.in for more thoughts on the role of the state.
Second, when a man “sells his soul for bread” (to paraphrase your remark), I am neither saying this is good nor am I condemning it. I am only saying that I can see why a man would do that and therefore, he should not be condemned for it. If a person did not lend him a helping hand in the past to help him rise out of his poverty, then he certainly does not have the right to criticize him, when the poor man makes the effort himself.
“We cannot and must not view the problem of economic or social backwardness from Hindu vs. Christian vs. Muslim perspective. Such divisiveness that leads to conflict and competitiveness is hardly conducive to any form of social and community-and-community harmony.”
Third, I am not viewing social backwardness from a religious perspective, at all. On the contrary, I am saying that if a man in poverty is being helped by someone, and the man accepts that help and acknowledges the price that he pays for that help, then it is a decision the individual is taking and no one else has any locus standi in the matter.
Fourth, I am saying that conversions through inducements (cash or kind) are ILLEGAL under Indian law. So, people who are objecting to these illegal conversions only have to provide the facts and evidence to the police(and I am assuming that there is preponderance of evidence as everyone seems to know illegal conversions are happening) and get the perpetrators arrested and the organisations proscribed. What can be simpler than that? Why is there a need to go around killing people, raping women and burning houses?
“Secularism as in separation of religion and state (as you rightly point out the example of France) is ONLY way to protect a secular democracy.
I agree completely with you on this and I am glad to find at least one voice here who shares my thoughts on how a modern country is built.
RE: Sanatana Dharma - I have come to the conclusion that sanatana dharma died some time ago. What we currently have is a jingoistic and bastardised version of what our sages and philosophers created/wrote. There is no “other” in Sanatana Dharma, which the lumpen “hindus” keep forgetting.
“As to what ‘Hindus’ have not done or done regarding their caste system a little introspection/investigation will show it is not so much a Hindu problem as an Indian problem - of racism - and its something which is being addressed by the Constitution and by increasing use of reason and mental maturity”
I truly hope so that this is being addressed, but what I read in a daily basis in my newspapers tells me a different story. IMO, the only solution is increasing urbanisation and cosmopolitan cities, where you go into the melting pot.
“Converting to other systems - as a counterpoint I could call them medieval religions - is simply not a mature solution. ”
I tend to agree with the above, but when jobs/education/healthcare comes into the picture, allied with a “different system”, then the issue becomes more complicated.
Thanks once again for your cogent arguments.
Cheers
Comment by Patriot | October 15, 2008
Patriot/TatiChawla…Thanks for a good, engaging debate…
I would just like to add that finding evidence that can stand in a court of law will be extremely difficult if not impossible in most of these cases of inducement (since the inducements are often of the “soft” kind - free education, free medical care, a “soft” loan etc)
But you are right..the government can only do so much and if Hindus are really so concerned, they should all make strenuous efforts to ensure development of these regions and the upliftment of these people… (and provide evidence of illegal conversions where they can)
I should gently remind everyone that Swami Laxmanananda was doing exactly what I have mentioned above - i.e. devoting his life to the betterment of tribals in Kandhamal..and there is at least one other organisation that is doing excellent work in this area: Ekal Vidyalaya.
http://www.ekalindia.org/ekal_new/index.php
***
All: Pl. do follow the thread above…I feel Patriot and Tatichawla have made a lot of very good points here which should be considered in this debate…
Comment by B Shantanu | October 15, 2008
Read the online free book.
Catholic Ashrams
Sannyasins or Swindlers
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/ca/index.htm
Comment by Bharat | October 16, 2008
Kandhamal students’ body demands to stop conversion in the district
October 13, 2008
OdishaToday
Some excerpts.
Berhampur (Orissa) : The Kandhamal Chatra Sangharsa Samiti on Sunday demanded to stop religious conversion allegedly being done by various NGOs in the district.
The students have stated that Swami Laxmanananda had served in the Kandhamal district for nearly 45 years and had brought several changes, particularly in the field of education and in social change.
On the other hand, the missionaries were instigating the minority community people to convert the innocent tribal people and were torturing them they alleged.
They further alleged that these missionaries were taking away the lands of the tribal people and were building the churches in those occupied lands.
more here.
Comment by Bharat | October 16, 2008
I agree that Hindus has to put some efforts to ensure development of their community, If they are concerend about conversion. ekalindia.org is very good site. Thanks for the link. Every temple should also come out with something that can help the development of community in a manner that they one can take pride being a Hindu or Indian.
Finding solution rather than protesting is the best option.
Comment by Indian | October 16, 2008
Most Oriya newspapers have reported that Congress Rajya Sabha MP, RK Nayak was involved in the killing of Swami laxmananda in Kandamahal. In fact, he was appointed to Rajya Sabha by Sonia Gandhi’s Congress in 2004 even though IB had an adverse report on him.
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Cong MP suspected behind VHP leader’s murder
…killing of its leader Swami Lakshamananda Sarwasati was hatched in the presence of Congress Rajya Sabha member R.K. Nayak’—
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Maoists were hired to kill Laxmanananda: Police
Thu, Oct 16 11:06 PM
Bhubaneswar, Oct 16 (PTI)
In a major breakthrough the Orissa police today claimed that the mastermind behind VHP leader Laxamananda Saraswati’s killing had been identified as a group had hired the Maoists to execute the crime. “Maoists were given money to train certain youths of a particular community to eliminate Saraswati,” Inspector General (IG) of Police, crime branch, Arun Ray told PTI asserting the mastermind of the killings had been identified.
read here and