Shabana Azmi is right about one thing…
…Muslims need to look within their own community and build reforms within it.
Last weekend, I finally managed to read the entire transcript of the Karan Thapar – Shabana Azmi interview and stumbled upon this bit in which she comments on the need for reform within the Muslim community:
Karan Thapar: Today, not just abroad but even in India, people say that Muslims have to take on the onus of changing the image of their religion and the image of the community. Is that a fair thing to say?
Shabana Azmi: I think it is. I would accept that because I don’t think that the Muslim leadership has bothered to clear the air about what Islam is all about….
And:
Karan Thapar: Do Indians, particularly those who aren’t Muslims, understand the extent of these problems that we have created by this prejudice for the 14-15 per cent Muslim minority? Do you think people understand this?
Shabana Azmi: Yes, and no. And when they don’t, I think it’s about time that Indian Muslims stopped viewing themselves as Muslims. I think otherwise they tend to get into that victim mode.
Karan Thapar: But what can they do?
Shabana Azmi: Firstly, you have to look within your community, you have to build reforms within it. You have to say that you want to look into things like education.
Yesterday, I was also alerted to this speech by Asghar Ali Engineer which is a great example of how some voices of reason are finally being heard within the Muslim community. Some excerpts:
…Of course it is not at all correct to say that Islam is incompatible to democracy, I said in my talk. …
We should remember, I said, that the Qur’an does not give any concept of state but a concept of society. Qur’an wants to establish a just society and what other way could be better suited to establish a just society than a democratic society. Also the Qur’an emphasizes equality of all human beings and equal dignity for all despite different languages, colours and race and nationality. How can it be achieved except through democratic society?
…The modern society is emphatic about human equality without any distinction and human rights and gender equality are of great significance and hence democracy is the only way out for Qur’anic concept of just society to be realized..
…Another question which is raised by Islamists is imposition of Shari’ah law. They argue that in democracy there are man made (human made) laws and Shari’ah law is divine law and this cannot be allowed in an Islamic state as only Shari’ah law should be enforced. This is also an erroneous concept. Shari’ah laws can be divided into two categories: ‘ibadat and mu’amalat (i.e. laws pertaining to salah, saum, haj etc. which are part of ‘ibadat.
Then the laws pertaining to mu’amalat which include relations between human beings and human beings. Laws about mu’amalat cannot be permanent. Of course no changes can be made as far as Shari’ah laws concerning ‘ibadat are concerned but as for mu’amalat laws cannot be permanent and parliament should be empowered to make laws in those respects. All modern democracies allow people to pursue their respective religions and do not interfere in their religious affairs. In all secular democracies also right to religion is a fundamental right.
…Thus no Islamic state is required even to enforce provisions of Shari’ah. An Islamic state again would mean the majority of Muslim sect who live in that country would enjoy real freedom and those Muslims who belong to other sects would be persecuted. We see this right in the beginning of Islamic history…..In modern Islamic states too we see this phenomenon. In Saudi Arabia only Wahabi Muslims enjoy real freedom of religion. …Similarly the Shias are persecuted in Sunni majority states and Sunnis in Shiah majority states. In Iraq a Sunni minority dominated and persecuted Shi’ahs and in Syria, Alawi minority dominate over Sunni majority as it wields political power.
Real freedom of religion is possible only in democratic state where all enjoy equal rights irrespective of caste, creed and colour. Large number of Muslims today live as minority in various secular democratic states in various Asian, African and Western countries and enjoy right to freely practice their religion. This it is not correct to maintain that you need an Islamic state to practice Islam freely.
…In secular India too Muslims are completely free to practice these laws. Indian Muslim refuse any reform in their laws and state does not insist on that though in many Muslim countries these laws have been reformed.
…Another objection raised by many Islamists is that in secular democratic states human rights are sacred and the very concept of human rights is un-Islamic. This is also not in keeping with the Qur’anic teachings.
…Thus we must properly educate Muslim masses and prepare them for acceptance of democracy in Islamic world. They should be made aware that those who oppose democracy in the name of Islam are really serving certain vested interests rather than Islam. Islamic world is still reeling under the impact of feudal and medieval forces who serve their own interests in the name of Islam. Islam is quite compatible with democracy. It is rather interests of rulers of Muslim countries which are not compatible with democracy.
Indonesia, I said in my lectures, has achieved democracy after a long spell under dictatorship and it must be protected at any cost and all religious minorities also should be guaranteed full freedom to follow their respective religion. Tolerance of differences is an important principle of democracy and due tolerance should be shown to all different religious opinions too. It will not violate any Islamic principle at all.
All good points although a few things stuck out:
- Asghar Ali has avoided mentioning religion in this sentence: “…the Qur’an emphasizes equality of all human beings and equal dignity for all despite different languages, colours and race and nationality”. The question is: Does the Quran emphasize equality of all human beings despite different religion(s) or not?
- “…Indian Muslim refuse any reform in their laws…” - self explanatory
- …and finally, time and again I have noticed how Muslim scholars insist and repeat that “Tolerance of differences is an important principle of democracy and due tolerance should be shown to all different religious opinions too…” Why dont people use the word “Acceptance”? I dont want to be tolerated - I want to feel accepted…
As for Shabana’s comments re. housing blues in Mumbai, I would like to reproduce some excerpts from an excellent article: “Forget Babri, check out monks’ wooden slippers” by Sh Nitish Sengupta (emphasis mine):
….The example which she chose as an illustration, that she could not buy a flat in Mumbai on account of being a Muslim, is trivial and misleading, and not weighty enough to justify the conclusion she has drawn. It is hard to believe that she could not buy a flat in Mumbai when so many other Muslims appear to have no difficulty. What one can guess is that she might have been negotiating the purchase with a Gujarati or other vegetarian owner or housing society who generally prefer to have like-minded vegetarians as neighbours, owners or tenants in their houses or apartment complexes. A Muslim, usually being non-vegetarian by habit, would therefore not be acceptable as the owner or tenant in such places. This is a fact of life in our country, which one cannot ignore, but it does not necessarily have anything to do with the religion that one professes.
We can sympathise with Shabana Azmi, but to hold on the basis of this that Indian democracy has not been fair to Muslims is unfortunate…
India’s democracy has, in fact, taken extraordinary care to be careful of the sentiments of Muslims, and minorities in general, in sharp contrast to the situation in Pakistan.
Whenever there has been a choice between a Muslim and a non-Muslim officer for a position in the secretariat of the Union government, it is generally the Muslim officer who is selected, other things being equal. Similarly, in politics, Muslims joining mainstream political parties have always had a fair deal. One can name at least three Muslims who have become Presidents of India since 1947. There are always several Muslims serving as governors of states. In the Union Cabinet as well as in state governments Muslims have always occupied important ministerial posts. There have been cases of Muslims becoming chief ministers of states where the population is overwhelmingly Hindu. Muslims have occupied very important posts in the bureaucracy at both the Centre and at the state government level.
The Sachar Committee report, which Shabana Azmi has cited, ignored all these facts and cited only the percentage of jobs in government services occupied by Muslims…
It is important for Shabana Azmi to remember that her statement will not only strengthen fundamentalists among the Muslims, but will also justify the Hindu fundamentalists’ “we told you so” attitude.
And in closing, a brief extract from an email I received from Shri Kak (a Kashmiri Hindu):
Azmi said she couldn’t buy property in Mumbai because she’s a Muslim. Never mind that there are thousands of Muslim property owners in Mumbai, including her fellow-Muslim film professionals and including her fellow-Muslim Dawood Ibrahim.
…The jihad against Kashmiri Hindus has made us refugees in our own country, our properties taken over by Kashmiri Muslims through distress sales or simply grabbed. Can anyone other than a State-certified Kashmiri Muslim in reality buy property in Kashmir? Can even Azmi buy property in Kashmir? No? Then why has she not protested about this, instead of lying about Mumbai?
Related Posts:
Literacy rates and “first claims”…
Is a reformation within Islam finally under way?
Its intriguing that even Asghar Ali Engineer baulks at even referring to Key issues when talking of reforms.
I’ve yet to see a single Muslim commentator (without exception) who tackles the key issues of preaching hatred and violence against non-muslims….I suspect if you’re a Muslim and begin to think differently from the scripture (as is literally understood on the aforesaid matters) you’re running scared! You’ve got to worry more about saving your own skin than about ‘liberating’ others.
Wonder which Muslim really has such courage - yet to hear about the existence of a single person… the Wafa Sultans, Ayaan Hirsi Alis et al no longer consider themselves ‘believers’. Can a ‘believer’ truly initiate any kind of reform on these aforementioned key issues?
Comment by Tatichawla | September 7, 2008
friends
we all know wht truth is and india knows mumbai is known as really democratic city. there is no point in discussing some fools comment. ppl like shabana azmi shows that some hard liner will never change. they are like snakes, who bite it’s owner only. if she feels indian ppl are doing injustice who has stopped her from leaveing india. this type of ppls are really harmful for peace. i feel ms.azmi is confussed abt her religion only. she wanna say something and she is doing other things. she might be not in proper condition, when she made such remarks. cos if india has not given muslims there rights then no country in world had done that. not even so called islamic countries.
in india we have kept islamic rules above our indian goverment rules. like second marriage in india is against law but for muslim there law permit and we accept it too. same madrass are not right way of education but we allow and accept them too. there are many things in india which are just for muslim religion and we all indian follow them.
do we have holiday for diwali in pakistan or any other country? then why we have holiday for id in india? cos we really understand there sentiments.
as everyone knows “kuttey ki dum tedi ki tedi hi raheegi” some ppl can’t change. they have that mind set and can’t see good things.but we shd understand there tricks of dividing us and slap them by staying united.
Comment by tarun garg | September 7, 2008
Yes I agree with Tarun. No country in the world can satisfy their demands. They are always on the side of want or snatch but not to give a pinch. They are regardless. Pakistan is standing on the land of India. Now they want Kashmir. Its not India, Its their people who needs to change.
Comment by Indian | September 7, 2008
Thanks for publishing this topic. Do read Naseeruddin Shah’s response here http://sify.com/movies/bollywood/fullstory.php?id=14751865
He basically refutes these statements and exposes the lies of Shabana and other people.
Comment by Dirt digger | September 9, 2008
@ Tarun:
“do we have holiday for diwali in pakistan or any other country? then why we have holiday for id in india? cos we really understand there sentiments.”
Because, India is a better country and we are better people. Do you really want to descend to the level of the Pakistanis?
Cheers
Comment by Patriot | September 10, 2008
Good link by Dirt digger. Yes Naseerudin is right we all get discriminated some time or other. See in Maharastra Hindus are discriminated by Hindus only. Still “Mera Baharat Mahan”. How much it costs to say! Ha..
Comment by Indian | September 10, 2008
Muslims and christians in Bharat want they must be treated as special guests and offer all special privilleges at the cost of Hindus. Of course, muslims and christians deserved better treatments as they are superior religion people, while Kafers, idol worshipers are inferior species.
Hindu’s crime, they are majority in partioned Bharat. Thats why sickular govts trying hard, Hindus should convert into muslim and christians and get special benefits. Sacchar committe, chrsitian haj subsidy etc are for this purposes. So, get converted and grab the benefits.
Once Hindus are in minority, oppressed them, supprerssed them, terrorised them to get converted completely, else kicked out from muslim-chrsitian dominated areas or annihilate them phisically.
Shabana did wonderful job by exposing her real FACE. It was hidden for long, now out. We must boycott such special person’s cinemas or inflict ourself.
We should not treat snakes (trecherous species) with milk and honey.
Comment by Bharat | September 10, 2008
Some encouraging news from UK:
…in east London Professor Amina Wadud gave (a) sermon at a centre in Oxford in what is being called a “leap forward” for equality in Islam.
The sermon was controversial as tradition holds that Muslim religious leaders, called Imams, must always be men when there are services with both sexes.
Some Muslims also believe it is against Islam for a woman to conduct such services.
Prof Wadud took the service, known as a khutbah, to mark the start of a conference on Islam and feminism at Wolfson College, Oxford.
“There’s nothing in the Koran that prohibits it,” she said.
“My own theological research into the essence of Islam indicates the necessity for us to be able to move away from the tradition that restricted women from the practice of leading prayer.”
The move has angered many Muslims and a small group gathered outside the college to voice their opposition.
…Chairman of the Muslim Education Centre Oxford Dr Taj Hargey, said earlier this week he was undeterred by the possible protests, arguing the prayer service is a step in the right direction.
More here.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 19, 2008
Dear Tarique,
I am awaiting your comments, which I am sure will be true to heart and intriguing.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c. krishnan | October 19, 2008
shabana azmi is entitled to her views so are her critics. forget muslims in india for a while. go to any north indian hindu village dominated by upper caste thakurs and find out if a dalit who becomes rich can build a bigger house in the same village ?? not at any cost. he will have to migrate to a smaller dalit village to do that.hatred based on caste , creed, religion stems from culture and not based on the teachings of any religion.infact if u look at the rise of various major religions of the world u will notice they all liberated the downtrodden and deprived class initially.a lot of u must read the life of ‘caliph omar’. he was second caliph of the muslims. caliph means governer. islam does not encourage monarchies and kingdoms.omar is very highly respected and regarded among jews, christians and many others for his respect of other faiths and his justice system. once as a caliph he was inspecting an ancient church which was almost in ruins. omar’s governence used to grant funds for repair of churches temples and synagogues of all faiths in his jurisdiction. while inspecting the church , there was the ‘azaan’ for the afternoon prayer. the christian priest requested omar to pray his namaaz in the church hall . omar smiled and replied ” i have no problem in prayering my namaaz here but after i m dead and gone ,some corrupt muslims will use my offering prayers here as an excuse to capture ur church ”.this church exists even today in jerusalem. this incident of omar and many more are taught today in british university’s.another incident of his when he was going to meet the head of christians for the first time in jerusalem. nobody had seen him till then in jerusalem though his governance extended all over arabia , persia, africa,central asia . he was travelling all alone on a camel with only the camel driver.omar wore torn clothes with patchwork on it.when his attendent was tired he would put him up on the camel and himself pull it.when jerusalem arrived it was the turn of omar to pull the camel.a large crowd of christians were waiting to greet their new governer.at first they failed to recognize him but when he spoke they believed who he was.islam preached love and respect , though a lot of u in here will never agree with me. the fault lies with a few greedy and bad muslims who were omar’s biggest fear.99 percent of the teachings of ‘jihad’ aree all about fighting the evil within our souls like greed, anger,jealousy,etc. in 1 percent it provides the right of ’self defense’ in extreme cases. unfortunately a great teaching like ‘jihad’which really means ‘inner struggle’ is today recognized by ’suicide attacks and mindless killings’. omar is described as the ‘pioneer’ of democracy in ancient times by many western historians.yet democracy today is found lacking in most of the 57 muslim majority countries today. ask a muslim today the meaning of ‘jihad ‘ and he will reply ”killing kafirs’ . who is to blame ?? islam or corrupt muslims ?
Comment by tarique | October 24, 2008
@ Tarique: When you have a moment, can you pl, confirm the authenticity - or otherwise - of the quote I have on Jihad in this post? SRK: “Jihad…a small little word”
Thanks.
Comment by B Shantanu | October 24, 2008
*** COMMENT COMBINED ***
bharat , why do u pick only pakistan out of the 57 muslim majority nations . why don’t u give examples of malaysia or indonesia who have hindu holidays in their country. indonesia has double the number of muslims than pakistan has.malaysia has a hindu political party called HINDRAF.
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INDONESIA HAS RETAINED ITS ANCIENT HINDU CULTURE EVEN TODAY DESPITE EMBRACING ISLAM.PLEASE DON’T SEE THE GLASS HALF EMPTY ALL THE TIME.
***
THE GRIEVANCES U HAVE AGAINST ISLAM OR CHRISTANITY IS IN A LOT OF CASES NOT JUSTIFIED. REMEMBER IF U HINDUS HAD THE SAME NUMBER OF ‘HINDU MAJORITY’ NATIONS AS CHRISTIANS OR MUSLIMS UR PROBLEMS WOULD BE THE SAME .
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I KNOW A GREAT NUMBER OF HINDUS HAPPILY SETTLED IN DUBAI WITH A FLOURISHING BUSINESS.SO WHY ONLY PICK ON ROTTEN EGG PAKISTAN ALL THE TIME.
***
IN THE ARAB WORLD THERE ARE MORE THAN 3 CRORE INDIANS EMPLOYED WHO EARN AND SEND BACK MONEY TO THEIR FAMILIES.THE ONLY PROBLEM IS SOME CULTURAL DIFFERENCES AND RELIGIOUS CUSTOMS WHICH NOBODY HAS BOTHERED TO ADRESS OR SPEAK FRANKLY.HINDUS FEEL SURROUNDED IN INDIA BY MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS.MUSLIMS FEEL THE HINDUS IN INDIA DON’T WANT THEM TO PROSPER.CHRISTIANS FEEL HINDUS WANT TO AVAIL THEIR SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES BUT NOT THEIR RELIGION.EVERYONE IS INSECURE.AND INSECURITY IS THE MOTHER OF ALL MYTHS AND PROPOGANDA.
Comment by tarique | October 24, 2008
Some excerpts from a great piece by Sadia Dehlvi on IM:
http://indianmuslims.in/zakir-naik-yazid-fatwa/
Muslims In Introspection Mode
…Recently Muslim scholars, activists and clerics got together and issued fatwas delinking Islam with terror. An eighteen coach Sheikh ul Hind Express from Deoband carrying two thousand clerics set out on a journey with a message of peace and integration.A total of six thousand clerics from twenty one states met in Hyderabad to issue more fatwas against terror activities.
From shock and denial modes, the Indian Muslim community has begun to introspect and take positive efforts.
Now, a collective body of Muslim clerics adhering to different schools of jurisprudence have taken another commendable step by denouncing Dr. Zakir Naik’s speeches and demanding a ban on them.
…Anger has now peaked with Dr. Naik declaring that praying to Prophet Mohammed and seeking his intercession with God is heresy.
I have been particularly disturbed by the growing popularity of Dr. Naik, founder of Peace TV and the president of an organization, “ The Islamic Research Foundation”. Dr. Naik is not an Islamic scholar or a cleric and can best be described as a preacher famous for his computer like memory of almost all religious scriptures including the Bible, Vedas and the Quran.
A medical doctor by training and inspired by the late Indian born South African evangelist Sheikh Ahmed Deedat, Dr. Naik loves to debate with Hindus on the Vedas, with Jains about vegetarianism and atheists on religion and science. In the garb of interfaith dialogues, Dr. Naik not just runs down all major religions, but also rubbishes as haraam (sinful) all Muslim devotional aspects that differ from his viewpoint.
In the subcontinent, Islam is the legacy of Sufis who gave us traditions of syncretism and communal harmony. Their tombs remain our historical, cultural and religious reference points. Through condemning Sufi followers as “grave worshippers”, Salafi and Wahabi ideology inspired speakers such as Dr. Naik reject an entire historical body of Islamic scholarship, jurisprudence and almost eighty percent of Islamic literature.
Terror has never been traced to Muslims pledging devotion to Sufis. Investigation reports on Kafeel reveal that the Glasgow bomber was deeply influenced by Dr.Naik’s rhetoric. This variety of Muslim evangelists is largely responsible for sowing seeds of intolerance in Muslim youth. The young educated Muslims joining terror outfits are clearly misled by their confrontationist attitudes. Without classical scholarship and guidance, religion can go horribly wrong.
Dr. Naik is on record saying, “ If Osama bin Laden is terrorising America or the enemies of Islam, every Muslim should become a terrorist. If someone is terrorising a terrorist, he is following Islam.” Excerpts of this video are circulating on the Internet, damaging the already wounded perception of Islam and its followers.
Social injustices cannot be used as a theme to create havoc and destruction in society.
…If Muslims insist that Hindutva ideologues be quietened, we must do the same with Muslim radicals.
…The current battle within the Muslim community is between the Islam of Prophet Mohammed and the modern Khwarijis who are waging a war of terror using Islamic terminology under the banner of Muslim faith.
Dialogue within the Muslim community on what form the rightful Islamic traditions has long been overdue. Thankfully, Muslims are now on an alert mode, identifying and rejecting intolerant elements within their own people.
Comment by B Shantanu | November 14, 2008
Dear Shantanu,
SURPRISE! SURPRISE! If the speech of Asghar Ali is coming from his heart waht are we discussing about.
Sanatana Dharma is by it self a way of life; Who practices a way of Life, it is a HUMAN BEING. An animal does not have a way of life but lives by its instinct. This comment is for my detractors who are going to be many.
Santana Dharma also preaches that there is no STATE but all Human Beings live the way of life that is equating for all!
“The modern society is emphatic about human equality without any distinction and human rights and gender equality are of great significance and hence democracy is the only way out for Qur’anic concept of just society to be realized..”
Hey Shantanu are my eyes betraying me?
If this is not a copy of Sanatana Dharma what else can be!!
The distortion by the elite of the true Sanatana Dharma has corrupted it to such an extent that today we are fighting tooth and nail to fix it and make repairs to it and remove the cobwebs of deceit and hatred so that the beauty of it can be exposed.
The true Sanatana Dharma calls for (excuse me, for I am going to reroduce what has been qouted by Shri Asghar here) “The modern society is emphatic about human equality without any distinction and human rights and gender equality are of great significance”
If what modern society is looking for is what is given above then Sanatana Dharma and Islam have given it Thousands of years ago!
“Another objection raised by many Islamists is that in secular democratic states human rights are sacred and the very concept of human rights is un-Islamic. This is also not in keeping with the Qur’anic teachings”
I totally disagree with this statement. If we read from what Shri. Tarique states, JIHAD by itself a sort of fight in the Human Mind of fight between evil and good and the word has been misused by many Mulims not understanding the true meaning of it.
If this is the case how can it be that Islam does not recogonise “Human Rights”!! It is very surprising. To be human would mean living with Human Rights and when Islam can state that “Jihad” is to be used in the right sense to make a better human being of you, where is the Conflict?
Either Shri Asghar has got it wrong or Shri. Tarique has got it wrong.
I would like to have your comments on the same.
Regards,
vck
Comment by v.c.krishnan | November 14, 2008
@ vck: I think you misread the excerpt.
Asghar and Tarique are both right…and are saying the same thing.
It is the “Islamists” who say that the concept of human rights is un-Islamic.
Comment by B Shantanu | November 14, 2008