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Lets come together to build a *new* and proud India…

22 May 2008 390 views 53 Comments

Many of you must have read and followed with great interest the avalanche of comments in response to the events in Karnataka involving Lok Paritran.

Several of you have also underlined how important it is for all of us to come together and join this fight against corruption, ineffective governance and indifferent political leadership that we currently have – both at the national as well as state level.

Fortunately a number of options exist.

For those of you who are keen to plunge into active politics straight away, I would suggest having a look at Bharat Uday Mission, Bharat Punarnirman Dal, Professionals Party of India and Loksatta as serious options.

For those of you who do not want to jump in just yet (or cannot do this at this stage), I would suggest keeping a close watch and an active interest in these developments – on this blog – as well as elsewhere on the blogosphere and traditional media.

To those of you who are keen and have decided to contest elections at some stage, I would suggest joining theFreedom Team of India

And to everyone I would say, please do not give up…one bad apple does not make an orchard worthless…We are at the cusp of greatness and good things will come out of this…we need to keep our morale high and our hopes alive..

Above all, we need to be prepared – in terms of strategy, policies and resources…so that we are ready when the time comes. This is going to be a monumental task – akin to the struggle for freedom.

We need everyone together in this effort.

Please show your support by leaving a comment and a contact email address here (which will remain private).

Please feel free to offer ideas, suggestions and next steps..

If there is enough interest, we can begin by organising “virtual” meet-ups on the net/skype followed by physical meetings in various cities..

If you wish to contact me privately, you can always do so at jai.dharma AT gmail.com

Finally, some of you may disagree with my ideas (on this blog)…All I would say is, please dont let our differences come in the way of our over-riding goal - that of building a proud nation that can occupy its rightful position in the 21st century.

I would like to end with this quote:

Since you have come into this world, leave some mark behindotherwise what is the difference between you and the trees and the stones? - Swami Vivekananda

Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.

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53 Comments »

  • 1. Indian said:

    Yes, I am ready to help in building a new and proud India.
    I am proud of being Hindu. I may not qualify in many field due to some draw backs but I am ready to serve in little way I can.
    My first priority for my Nation India is: I will not let my country divide on any ground and will protect my Dharma that is “Hindu” and “Hindusim” and will not let them down.

    Jai Hind! Jai Bharat!

  • 2. dosabandit said:

    As a priority, I think we should encourage our middle class to come out & vote. For some reason the urban folk do not seem to see any value in carrying out this basic civic duty. The recent low voter turnout in Bangalore is a continuation of this tradition. The educated need to come out & participate in the polls, they have the ability to see through rhetoric & make an educated choice. They are not susceptible to promises of free TVs & saris. Spread the word & help in increasing voter turnout for the general elections next year. Us bloggers can start a campaign & raise awareness on this issue. Each can reach their readers & spread the word, besides an online campaign.

  • 3. Nanda said:

    Many people don’t vote in bangalore, true and everyone is pointing this out whenever they get a chance. But we need to look at the reason.
    1. Most of them are from outside state, these urban bangaloreans don’t have voters id.
    2. Many people travel outside bangalore a lot due to their job.
    3. Many families leave their home locked durig day time, so they are never present when electoral officer comes for taking list.
    4. As usual, voters list miss many names even if they change house or due to wrong details.

    People having voters id and not voting at the same time, is comparably very less may be 10%.

  • 4. Anuj Mishra said:

    Nanda,
    When we talk that only 45% voting has happend, it menas only 45% have voted and 55% have not voted even if there names are there in the voter list. It don’t calculate those whose name is not there in the list.

    I have seen that 55% who doesn’t vote have most of the problems with the system and they expect every thing from the system. From last 2 years our Lok Paritran Karnataka team is meeting with people and telling them to vote. Even Lok Paritran karnata has helped aprox 75000 people for getting there name in the voter list.

    They can’t stand for 30 min to cast there vote, They can’t visit ARO office atleast once to submit the form for inrolment in the voter list BUT

    They can stand 48 hrs in sun if US/UK gives visa, they can run 100 times in the passport office to get there pasport etc.

    Finally here thing is how serious you are about the system and the problems. 1000 reasons can be given for not doing any work or doing any work.

    Regards,
    Anuj Mishra
    099001 44384

  • 5. Sanjeev Sabhlok said:

    Dear Friends

    India’s problem has been that its middle classes, 200 million strong, has disengaged from politics for 60 years. It is now time for them to take over politics. When the middle classes come forward, then a country’s prosperity is assured. Else it is likely to remain at the mercy of rabble-rousers, aristocrats, or gangsters (including military or other dictators).

    The middle class knows what hard work is. It is seeped in the principles of justice. The strong growth of freedom in England (and its break from feudalism) is attributed to its middle class taking over its politics from around the early 1800s. It appears that in the early 21st century, 200 years later, the Indian middle may be finally waking up and could transform India if it does finally wake up.

    The Freedom Team is searching only for 1500 leaders and that is proving to be VERY difficult. On the other hand, small countries like Australia generate leaders by the tonnes. There are serious battles at the hustings between outstanding leaders here, but it is to be noted that almost all their leaders come from the middle classes.

    Shatanu’s message is therefore very important for India. Please heed his call. Every educated person in India should join politics at some level or the other.

    The good thing about joining politics is that these things build momentum as well as awareness. As Shakespeare said, “There is a tide in the affairs of men”. Social change is a consequence of constant chattering, which then builds a tide where there is alignment and coordination of voices. After that, change is irresistible, and rather quick.

    Second, it builds awareness. Today, most young persons graduating from engineering or management courses are ignorant of the legal structures and governance frameworks which underpin a modern society. This area (of arts, and in particular, of political science) is neglected by the more intelligent Indian youth – much to the detriment of India. Do not underestimate the importance of political philosophy. I was a science student till my BSc but I now realise what I missed. I have tried to cover up by extensive reading subsequently. (The political philosophy of freedom: try to read about it and understand it, is my suggestion.)

    By joining politics the young educated people of India will start imbibing the concepts of governance by osmosis. They will be forced to read a few laws and to write a few petitions. These things will enormously help them, and give a foundation for political and policy analysis.

    The third thing people will learn from these experiences is the value of working closely in teams, and the value of ‘servant’ leadership.

    The Freedom Team is focused on team building and leadership. It is looking for mature leaders (who could be young!), who are committed to policy learning and delivery of world best policy to India. At this stage, my preference will be for all leaders of India who are committed to freedom and world-best policy to assemble under the banner of FTI. Initially we are looking only for people who are committed to contesting elections. Check out:
    http://www.freedom.sabhlokcity.com/

    Alternatively, subscribe to the FTI magazine at:
    http://groups.google.com/group/towards-a-great-india to keep in touch.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

  • 6. dosabandit said:

    Nanda, the voter turnout is based on the number of registered voters. That means half of the Bangaloreans that did have a voter Id did not turn up. If folks did not have a voter Id they are not counted in the stats. Also, it is hard to believe that half of Bangalore is populated with ‘outsiders’.

    Anuj also points out that we are prepared to spend loads of time on others things but not to cast our votes.

  • 7. Mohit said:

    go and give your vote first

    and convince others to vote..

    In democracy vote is the best tool

  • 8. B Shantanu said:

    Indian, dosabandit, Nanda, Anuj, Sanjeev and Mohit: Thanks for your comments.

    ***

    @ dosabandit: You say, “As a priority, I think we should encourage our middle class to come out & vote”
    Agree 100% …Those of us whose stomachs are full and whose beds are soft have the greatest obligation to do something…we have reached the point where mere complaining will, at best, bring only incremental changes…at worst, it will be completely ignored…

    ***
    Nanda: I think you have a point…There may be many reasons why even people who otherwise want to vote, do not (or cannot) vote…that does not mean that there is nothing else they can do…they can support cleaner alternatives, they can help by disseminating information (see e.g. this post http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/05/17/from-bad-to-worse/ ), they can help in other ways…dont you think?

    ***
    Anuj: you say: “They cant stand for 30 min to cast there vote, They cant visit ARO office atleast once to submit the form for inrolment in the voter list BUT They can stand 48 hrs in sun if US/UK gives visa, they can run 100 times in the passport office to get there pasport etc.
    You are right…think why? Because they are not convinced that it will make any difference…because they dont feel that their vote will count for anything…because they dont have trust in the present system…because they find nothing around them that would inspire them to change their behavior…
    Standing 48 hours in the sun at least has the promise of more money, possibly a better life, possibly a more fulfilling career…30mins to cast their vote just doesnt match…

    So what does one do? I believe that the task of “building hope” amongst people, making them believe that change can happen, that THEY can change things – is a challenge that is on par with reforming the *system* and this is what I meant above when I said people can help in other ways…
    This is what I try to achieve through this blog…to give readers hope, belief and confidence that change can happen and things do not have to be the way they are…

    ***
    Sanjeev: Thanks for your comments…As always, very apt.
    This sentence resonated strongly: “…Today, most young persons graduating from engineering or management courses are ignorant of the legal structures and governance frameworks which underpin a modern society. This area (of arts, and in particular, of political science) is neglected by the more intelligent Indian youth – much to the detriment of India.

    I agree 100%…this is a serious lacunae and we need massive efforts to create awareness in this direction…Sadly, I dont see enough being done.

  • 9. B Shantanu said:

    VERY TIMELY – PLEASE READ

    From: Politics: Crisis of leadership, not capacity (excerpts) by Prem Trivedi

    “The second — and most fundamental — cause of divisive politics is a collective failure to make a serious investment in developing and training political leaders.

    …It’s a shame, because this is an area where much can be done, and where many are asking for progress.

    Young people, in particular, are clamouring for change. According to the World Bank’s World Development Report of 2007, the percentage of Indian youth who were ‘very’ or ‘rather’ interested in politics climbed from around 35 per cent in 1990 to approximately 50 per cent in 2000.

    Interest is one thing, but youth are also ready to act. The buzz over the ‘Lead India’ campaign — which attracted over 30,000 applicants — is one sign of the growing enthusiasm for political participation.

    …If India is serious about reaching this goal, it needs more than high-profile talent searches. It needs creative thought about how to design institutions that impart crucial skills and values.

    …In a twenty-first century that demands a seamless marriage of specialisation and broad vision, India requires world-class political training institutes and public policy schools.

    Establishing these institutes would send a strong message that Indians affirm the value of engaging with politics. These institutions must attract the best faculty from around India and the world, and they must carefully tailor their curricula to the Indian political context, drawing as much from Kautilya as from Plato.

    They must stress a national, collaborative ethos…and they must equip India’s young leaders with the vision to dream boldly, the acumen to plan down to the smallest detail, and the will to ensure that the last details are implemented.

    If all this happens, it will be another small step in a long struggle to change well-entrenched defeatist attitudes.

    …In both India and the United States there is a growing middle and upper-class sentiment that our most important task is to keep politics out of business and to keep ourselves out of politics. Privatise everything, and we will be just fine, is the prevailing mantra. No one is disputing that the excesses of the License Raj are undesirable. But the notion that we can solve all of our problems without the government is a fiction that overplays recent economic successes and ignores the realities in which most citizens live.

    More dangerously, it is an expedient fiction that lets us abdicate our civic responsibilities.

    Indians are kidding themselves if they believe that, without engaging the state, they will somehow solve crises in education or healthcare, wish away separatist demands, or help India to negotiate favorable international agreements.

    No solutions to national challenges are viable without citizens’ political engagement.

    …Today, India faces a crisis of leadership, not a crisis of capacity.

    …One of the chief aims of Indian foreign policy is to establish the country as a great global power. It is no secret, though, that much of this battle must be won at home.

  • 10. Ashish said:

    Here is my take on the lack of leadership in India:

    Indians do not feel a sense of ownership of India, They do not feel that this is their country. They feel this is a just place where they all get to watch cricket, enjoy spicy food, Bollywood etc. But not something their forefathers have been building over the millenia.

    Ask any Indian about the sciences, medicine, architecture, language…and laundry lists of Newtons, Keplers and Galileos roll down desi tongues. But Hindus (yes, Hindus) who discovered/invented the same thing centuries, even millenia before the west?
    “Umm..no…I don’t know (and its a good thing I dont, because that would–somehow–be communal. Bad onlee)”

    Now the thing here is that this effort to undercut, malign, denigrate, and destroy Indian culture, well-funded as it is, can be easily overcome by awareness.

    However, most Indians do not come close to anything that would develop this awareness. Websites, books etc exposing the homicidal exploits of fundamental Islam, missionary Christianity, Maoism–things that are a clear and present danger to India–these are avoided as if they were poison.

    So the young Indian thinks: “All the bad things that the followers of these ideologies are doing in India,,those are things that they are doing because something is wrong with us, us the Indians,,because otherwise, these things would not have happened.
    They cannot see that all that is happening to India is a part of a big pattern that has happened world wide, and has “religious” sanction.

    I believe this lies at the root of the apathy so pervasive in India. Spreading the truth about India, Hinduism, and predatory “faiths” is the way out.

  • 11. Sanjeev Sabhlok said:

    Dear Ashish

    There are no predatory faiths; only predatory and misguided people. Do read Benazir Bhutto’s book “Reconciliation”. It will show you how terribly misguided the Islamic fundamentalists are.They have been disowned by most Islamic leaders, but for some reason people don’t notice that fact.

    Second, I wonder what you mean when you say “Hindus (yes, Hindus) … discovered/invented the same thing centuries, even millenia before the west?”

    Is it true that Hindus (my ancestors!) had the internet? Or google? Where is the evidence?

    In any event, let us not get parochial about science. It doesn’t matter who invented science, whether Hindus, Muslims, or Martians. We all benefit from science as a species. It belongs to everyone.

    But are you saying there are many ‘Hindu’ scientific ideas which have not been exploited yet? Then why not set up a company and propagate those ideas commercially and ‘take over the world’?

    The fact is that India, like any other part of the world, done some good things in the past, and done some very ordinary things. Let us therefore absorb the best from ALL parts of the world irrespective of the source ‘religion’.

    The Freedom Team is committed to the best policies from all over the world. It does not have and should not have any parochialism about India’s past. What matters to me if India had a great past if it has a terrible and corrupt present?

    If we genuinely want Indians to prosper, we must keep our minds open and keep learning. That is the first test of leadership.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

  • 12. Ashish said:

    Dear Sanjeev,

    1. I am not saying every muslim is bad, or every christian is bad. They are good *in spite* of their books. Please read the Koran, the Hadiths, or at least go to faithfreedom.org/christianaggression.org before commenting on “no predatory faiths”.
    Regardless of what FTI thinks, truths cannot be averted. FTI can do a lot about other things, but unless these truths I talk about are acknowledged, India will always fail wrt containing terrorism.

    2. Go to hinduwisdom.org to see what Hindus (us–all of us, even though now we may call ourselves differently) did. What “take over” did I speak about? I am asking for acknowledgement which will build a sense of ownership in India. People take care of what they own. No one washes a rental car.

    Keep up with archeology etc, Sanjeev! Being politically oriented without any knowledge of the roots of terrorism and living without opening one half of the book will only get you so far..and then you will become another minority-appeasing majority hurter. Not that you need to give special kudos to the majority, but just that you should let the truth out.

    If you want to keep learning, start with what you have skipped over.

    As I said before, India’s great past will foster a sense of ownership in India. I am not at all saying we all should rest on our laurels and expect things to happen just because we were once great. Please see the point I am trying to make.

    Leadership will only go so far if the junta is apathetic. And having leaders motivated about India is going to be a problem too without letting them know what India was.

    Regards,

    Ashish

  • 13. B Shantanu said:

    Sanjeev: You say, “…Islamic fundamentalists…have been disowned by most Islamic leaders“…I am afraid that these is not supported by observed evidence..

    Also I do not agree that the rightful attribution of certain discoveries and inventions is being parochial,

    The point Ashish was trying to make was more about a sense of pride and achievement which is essential to raise the self esteem of a mass of people whose voice has not been heard for centuries.

    The past is important not least because it shapes the present…it shapes attitudes and it shapes thinking…I feel it helps to understand that.

    Also there may be no predatory “faiths” but there certainly are predatory ideologies – such as the idelogy of extreme Islamism…

    What would be your response to that? It is definitely something that is affecting our “present”.

    As for Benazir Bhutto, all I would say is her words and her deeds did not always match.

    ***

    Ashish: Thanks for the comment and some good points

  • 14. v.c.krishnan said:

    Dear Sir,
    Shri. Ashish has got through all of us through the great “ball” of truth. We are all clued on to IPL, so the ball part!
    Unless we tend to think about us with pride and a sense of ownership of our heritage, efforts at our comphrehensive development will be hindered.
    Let us take the recent example of the fight for ST status by the Gujjars. I do not know where they come from or what their ancestry is, but the poor quality of the thinking process over the years by the “commie Historians” and the skewed leadership has made them wanting a peculiar status, which means conferring certain priveleges for them.
    What does this mean? It means that our leaders have not taught them to BE PROUD OF THEIR HERITAGE!
    They have been made to feel downtrodden and trying to make a living through PRIVELEGES conferred to them by Governments.
    If as Shri. Ashish has put it, if only they are made to understand what their heritage means to society and made feel proud about themselves, I am sure they will not indulge in sabotaging or destroying properties for their selfish interests.
    Let us make it an issue of making OURSELVES proud.
    I do not how far it is true. But our knowledge of the past is very poor as our history has been massacared at the altar of western development. The west is never willing to accept the greatness of some of the discoveries of this great nation as it will mean a defeat for them.
    Digressing a little to highhlight this point, even the excuse of non supply of uranium by the “HYPOCRITICAL WEST” can be gauged by the fact that it gives the excuse that since India has not signed the NPT, no fuel will be supplied to it.
    The fig leaf is apparent when tne question arises ; where were their idelogies when a neighbouring country supplied Nuclear development items to another Country, disliked by the US.
    The west could not countenace the fact that India could join the Nuclear club, without the knowledge of the great WEST!
    I digressed to impress upon the fact that India has a lot of knowledge that all of us Indians are unaware of, as we have only been brought up on a diet of Western thoughts and a total annihilation of Great Indian writers and leaders.
    Unless we get back our pride we will get nowhere.
    Before I close for now, I would like to highlight here that “PLASTIC SURGERY” was AN INVENTION OF “india” and not of the west!!
    Truth is the British came across it ion India in “ONLY 1785″ or thereabouts and took it back to their country and then killed the native medical technology.
    The proof, THE READERS DIGEST!!
    Regards,
    vck

  • 15. B Shantanu said:

    vck: Thanks for the comment.

    Shri Dharampal has done some work on relative educational levels amongst various castes/classes in pre-independence India which merits a mention here. I will get hold of the link and post it today/tomorrow.

  • 16. parthaSarathy said:

    Shantanu, I fully agree with Ashish. Unless you take stock of the past, you cannot plan for the future. The most important thing is that, we should have uniform civil code. In India all are Indians first and the foremost and different laws must not be applied to different religious groups. Religion should be a private matter.

    Regards/partha

  • 17. Sanjeev Sabhlok said:

    Dear Shantanu

    Re: “Also there may be no predatory faiths but there certainly are predatory ideologies – such as the idelogy of extreme Islamism”

    A believer in freedom believes in individual accountability. We should avoid labeling entire religions on the basis of actions of a few individuals who comprise less than 0.001% of their members. I would prefer if you could qualify your views in the future by saying “ideology of a few people who have distorted the message of Islam”.

    Second, if you don’t read Islamic writers who resoundingly trash Islamic terrorists then you can’t say, “I am afraid that these is not supported by observed evidence..” How will you get the evidence if you do not make an attempt to observe it? Evidence doesn’t fall into one’s lap. You have to work for it. Have you read Benazir’s book yet?

    Please do read it if you haven’t (forget what she did; we must pick out good points, if any, even from our worst enemies). Benazir’s is a very well researched book that I highly recommend for the wealth of new information not known to many.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

  • 18. B Shantanu said:

    Sanjeev: This is a hurried response to your statement:

    “We should avoid labeling entire religions on the basis of actions of a few individuals who comprise less than 0.001% of their members

    Agree completely and as far as I remember, I have been very careful not to lump a faith (Islam) with a militant ideology (Islamism – which derives from Islam but is not the core belief of Islam – at least I would like to believe that).

    Like most observers, I usually make a clear and strong distinction between Islam and Islamism in my writings… (eg. see this: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/954 )

    This nuance is important and though seemingly a matter of semantics is an important concept to understand what we are up against.

    YOu also say that: Second, if you dont read Islamic writers who resoundingly trash Islamic terrorists

    I will read Benazir’s book but please point me in the direction of others who “trash Islamic terrorists”..

    I think you will come up with a number that is embarrasingly small and names that are irrelevant – However, I am happy to be corrected here.

    Finally, when you have a moment, please have a look at:
    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/03/12/darul-uloom-war-on-islamism/

  • 19. Sanjeev Sabhlok said:

    Dear Shantanu,

    Here are a few Benazirs comments. She has cited many others throughout her book to substantiate that extremist thinkers are hijacking Islam very badly and distorting it completely. In relation to the most ghastly terrorist, Osama bin Laden, she has scathing condemnation, eg:

    p. 27. Let us look specifically at the issue of terrorism. Muslim jurists developed a specific body of laws called siyar that interprets and analyses the just causes for war. Part of the law indicates that those who unilaterally and thus illegally declare a call to war, attack unarmed civilians and recklessly destroy property are in flagrant violation of the Islamic juristic conception of bellum justum. Islamic law has a name for such rogue militants, muharibun. A modern definition of muharibun would very closely parallel the contemporary meaning of terrorists. The acts that these muharibun commit would be called hiraba (terrorism). [citing Afsaruddin, Competing Perspectives in Jihad: Jihad and Martyrdom in Early Islamic Sources] Thus all terrorism is wrong. There is no good terrorism and bad terrorism. Osama bin Ladens creed that the terrorism we practice is off the commendable kind is an invented rationalisation for murder and mayhem. In Islam, no terrorism – the reckless slaughter of innocents – is ever justified.

    p.29. 3rd para: Bin Ladens utter disregard for the value of human life, especially his doctrine of including innocents in the senseless carnage, is un-Islamic Bin Laden is not representative of Islam, or any civilisation, for that matter.

    P. 37, last para from bottom: Muslim global terrorists, including Osama bin Laden, display a striking ignorance of Islam. They distort the message of Islam while at the same time using the name of religion to attract people to a path to terrorism.

    Do read the entire book. Btw, I dont agree with the use of Islamism I think it is very unsuitable as a word to represent the deeds of those who have been effectively cast out by Islam. Best to use various distortions of Islam if that is your intent. Using Islam-ism is like fanatical killers among Hindus (eg. Godse) claiming that their view is Hindu-ism. Please consider.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

  • 20. Patriot said:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    Dear Sanjeev,

    It is very difficult to take accept anything that Benazir Bhutto writes at face value. You need a big bucket of salt to go with her book!

    Maybe, she turned over a new leaf ….. who knows, even the improbable happens at times!

    But, it is difficult to forget that it was the same Benazir, who was exhorting the various kashmiri terrorist groups to commit murder and mayhem to snatch kashmir from India. And, it is difficult to forget that the whole infrastructure of the training camps were set up during her regime.

    Given her hoary background, it is more plausible that the book was meant to help her secure political power, with the support of the US. Sorry to be cynical, but Benazir was an untrustworthy politician.

    Cheers

    PS: I have not read the book yet, but does Benazir apologise anywhere for arming the terrorist groups in Kashmir?

  • 21. Indian said:

    Hi Patriot

    I agree. I have a video in which Benzir herself screaming in Kashmir for waging war againts India.

    I am looking for that video in my some of my files and will post here.

    Jai hInd!

  • 22. Sanjeev Sabhlok said:

    Dear Patriot

    Whether Benazir said the things she has said against terrorism, or whether even a single ordinary Muslim said such things, all Indians should recognise that Islam is not a monolith wanting to convert the whole world to Islam; that Islam is a divided house. People who have hijacked Islam are killing their ‘own kind’ in mammoth numbers today.

    Therefore, no matter what your views on Benazir as a person, I suggest that we join hands with those who are opposed to the destruction of innocent lives by terrorists. By supporting them we support life everywhere.

    Btw, you make a strong claim, “it was the same Benazir, who was exhorting the various kashmiri terrorist groups to commit murder and mayhem to snatch kashmir from India”.

    I’m not totally familiar with everyone’s extortions. Can you cite authentic evidence? To the best of my knowledge, Benazir was a bit player in Pakistan; the control over ISI or defence forces in Pakistan by elected Prime Ministers in Pakistan has been notional at best. The proof of the hatred of many terrorists against Benazir’s intentions lies in her terrible violent death.

    I am not an apologist for Benazir and don’t want to enter into a dialogue about Benazir and her regime, but getting a citation on what you say would be good. When did she actually incite people to violence? When did she say: go out and commit murder? That would contradict the message in her book and I would get enlightened in that process as well.

    Re: Kashmir – a few comments:

    I’d suggest we treat the issue of Kashmir with a lot of care, for it is by now a very complex issue.

    It takes great courage to recall that the basic terms of India’s partition – however misguided – were to partition India on the basis of religious majorities.

    It takes great courage to recall that certain parts of India had not been officially partitioned virtually till the very end – and that Kashmir was one of those question marks.

    It takes great courage to recall that India refused – by force – to hand over Junagarh and Hyderabad to Pakistan on the ground these were Hindu majority areas. All Indians think that was a good thing to do. Fair enough.

    But it takes great courage to recall that Kashmir was a Muslim majority area with contiguous boundaries with Pakistan. So, had similar arguments about Hyderabad and Junagarh been applied to Kashmir, Kashmir could have legitimately gone to Pakistan.

    It takes great courage to recall that Nehru committed in Parliament to a referendum in Kashmir. He spoke about it not once but on innumerable occasions.

    I have read a few books on Kashmir both by Indians and by Pakistanis. Both sides have numerous claims and grievances. Both sides argue logically and coherently. I agree with all of them partially, but no one talks of the people of Kashmir as the key interested party.

    We have to be realistic and practical when talking of Kashmir. No side holds moral superiority on this issue. The whole thing is a disgrace: Killing each other on frivolous grounds. Behaving like monsters. I’m not just referring to terrorists here. Both governments have behaved as if the piece of land that is Kashmir is more important to someone’ s pride than the people who live on that land; as if Kashmir is someone’s personal heirloom.

    I think the referendum was a good idea, but it has long been over-run by history. The legacy of Kashmir, though, is now very complex. The welfare of all people of Kashmir must form the only element of the solution.

    None of what I said above justifies even one murderous terrorist from Pakistan who kills innocents in India. For controlling such madmen the Pakistan government must take full responsibility. That terrorism in the name of Kashmir should stop is a bare minimum, but the bigger issue is: how can India and Pakistan permanently settle this matter and start living normal lives?

    In my view the basis of the partition of India was flawed; no one could have possibly created two genuinely viable countries separated on religious grounds. Ethnicity and culture, not religion, has been the foundation of successful nations; religious partitions are unstable and dangerous. Pakistan split quickly into two (Bangladesh) despite a common religion across these two countries. People have to learn to live with multiple religions through tolerance and liberal constitutions.

    The partition can’t be reversed now, but I would suggest a united India in some form or manner again; perhaps an economic union like EU. That union could form part of a package of overall solutions for Kashmir as well. If people can trade and travel freely (not necessarily settle down freely) across these parts of the union, then peace should return.

    Regards
    Sanjeev

  • 23. Mahesh Patil said:

    Lets come together to build a *new* and proud India-
    Ok like in our organization say.. Bharat’s Punarnirman…

    I have just randomly read some of the threads in this post.. i would like to freshly express my thoughts and views on the title of this post. i.e. of Reconstructing a proud and powerful India.

    I always wonder why people always want to do something for India.. why do they straight way start thinking to do something at National level when you havent even done something for the housing society you have been staying for ages. “Desh kay liye kuch karna hai”… the famous RDB dialogue.. then i ask these wanna be patriots, what exactly you want to do for your country?.. they say ..something good. But no one knows what exactly to do?..

    I know a old lady in her 60′s leading an organization. She stays in Mumbai but whenever i call her she says i am at Bihar saving some flood victims or i am in MP doing some NGO work. Again i questioned her saying.. i have nodoubts you are doing a tremendous job at your age by helping the people in Bihar or MP but how many people know you in your own society that you are doing this job of serving the nation?…the answer was ..nil ..

    The point i am trying to make is, if you just want to serve India, one can carry one with the social work the way above lady is doing. But if you want to Lead India
    you have to start from your local community. Thats how the leaders have emerged even in the past. In our marathi there is a saying “Apla Gadh adhi majboot kara” .. i.e. your fortress should be stronger first(you should be welknown in your local area before conquering or leading people from other areas.)

    I was recently invited to attend a groups meeting who wanted to form a new political organization. They told we had a plan to win 3/4 majority in the parliament.
    I was quite curious since i not being a pessi and no prejudice.. i eagerly attended the meeting to know the master plan. Their master plan was to find 543 people across India to contest MP elections and then these 543 people
    I did smiled as it reminded me of my fresh days in Politics as i had laid down the same simple arithmatic calculation to attain 3/4 majority. But i gladly
    cracked a joke to them saying , “are we planning to close down Rajya Sabha as you havent included those 260 seats?”

    Winning an MP seat is absolutely Impossible if we proceed in this manner. I told them Bharat Ratna Namdaar Dr.Babasaheb Ambedkar has drafted the indian constitution in such a way that MAXIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE CAN TAKE PART IN THE INDIAN DEMOCRACY … and the power is just not in the hands of 543 + 260 MP’s or even 3000 odd MLA+MLC’s … But these MP’s and MLA’s need to enjoy the support of lakhs of Sarpanchs (Gram panchayat heads) to ZP heads and Municipal Councillors.

    People staying in Metros will know what exactly i am saying.. i.e. An MP from South Mumbai like Milind deora cannot do anything unless the local shivsena MLA’s and Corporator assists him… even he being from ruling UPA

    I just gave them an example of Maharashtra’s political demography. i.e. If we dream even to establish power in Maharashtra we need atleast one member of our organization who could contest in 28650 local bodies.
    apart from 288 MLA seats and 48 MP seats. and another 1/3 of nominated/elected Upper house seats of Vidhan and Lok Sabha.

    Today i myself leading the great State of Maharashtra for my organization, I chose to localise my efforts to Maharashtra and further narrowed the organizations efforts in few districts strategically for couple of years.
    And building the organization Bottoms up and not Top Down.

    So again i would like to conclude by saying is we require local leaders first… and national leaders will emerge from them by default by natural selection and not by black and white parameters who could build a *new* and proud India

    ## the organization i have talked about the 543 target is not the 1500 Freedom Team. But i would just like to mention something to the freedom team that, i just was about to start reading your freedom team introduction document….. The first very wrong thing you have done at the opening of the document is my potraying an AMERICAN Freedom SYMBOL…. the statue of liberity. … i am sure India doesnt lack freedom symbols.

    TO MODERATOR
    If the moderator permits me, As a practicising politician i would like to constructive critisize the freedom teams documents.

    waiting for yours constructive critism
    Jai Hind Jai Maharashtra
    Mahesh Pramod Patil
    Bharat Punarnirman Dal

  • 24. Nagesh said:

    All Indians in general and Youth in particular should learn lessons from the betrayal by lok paritran. After 60 years of corruption , Indians have lost hope in the current politcal parties so whenever they see any new Political party made by any Tom , Dick or Harry , they jump and later feel that they are worse than the existing ones. LP with IIT / IIM created hype and generated hope among youth. People left their job and volunteered to campaign for them but in the last they felt betrayed by the Rajpuruhit Tanmay and Sekar. People are disappointed and lost hope in Politics.

    If we are serious in well being of our nation and want to realise the Developed India 2020 dream of our Former President Kalam, we should think deeply the issues concerning our Motherland.

    We need to create awareness amoung Indians using power of media and latest technology.

    We should be transparent in our working and specially financial matters.

    We should be Polite with the fellow Indians and specially elders.

    We should screen every candidate carefully before giving him any post in the party and election ticket.

    If we want to clean the country , we should begin with our house first.

    Charity begins from home. Some people only preach but dont follow the principles.

    Actions speaks louder than the words.

    I suppose Lok Satta is one of the best options and we should focus on Finding 1500 Patriots and Fight next Lok Sabha elections.

    There is also a Party called Jago Party which is promising a lot for development and progress , lets probe them also.

    Bharatiay Punarnirman dal is also doing good work.

    BUMI , Bharat Udai Mission is also doing grassroot level work.

    We should reach the masses , 70% of Indians live in villages , We should reach to each section and every corner by doing grass root work.

    Making a website in 3000 Rs. and attacking fellow Indians and by engaging in character assacinations of people like Alabur and Naganna will not help them in long run. We should not do what they are doing but at the same time we should remain vigilant and careful so that No other innocent is fooled and cheated by them in the name of IIT , Technocrat , Anti Corruption , Ideology , Principle , patriotism , social change , Jagatguru , Great traditions and all sweet words.

    I thank Mr.Shantanu for his commitment towards the Motherland and I urge all the visitors and members on this forum to make this forum popular by sending its link to all the Friends .

    It will be a second movement for Freedom

    Freedom from Corruption , Hunger , Fear .

  • 25. B Shantanu said:

    Mahesh and Nagesh: Thanks for your comments…These are excellent points and I will definitely comment on them in some more detail within the next 2-3 days.

    ***

    @ Mahesh: I have a slightly different view with regards local society, politics and fundamental change…I will elaborate on that in a day or two…That said, I am not saying your approach is wrong or bad…It is just that I would like to understand it better…particularly how can it transform into a “national movement”.

    As regards constructive criticism of Freedom Team documents, you are most welcome to debate them on this forum…I am sure Sanjeev Sabhlok will not mind…but I will wait for his response.

    ***

    Nagesh: You have made some excellent points…I really believe that we will be at a critical juncture sometime in the next 5 years when demographics, public awareness and mass communications (incl. new media t echnology) will together make the environment very conducive for attempting change…I am very hopeful it will happen…but when it happens we must be prepared…and I see all these efforts as preparation for that moment… More on this later.

    Thanks also for your kind words about my blog…please do send the link to your friends and anyone who is interested in the betterment of India..particularly the links to posts such as these.

    Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.

  • 26. Pramod said:

    Hi Shantanu,

    Congratulations for launching and maintaining a blog which gives a vibrant space for interaction on issues related to India. There are number of blogs , websites and portals involved in online awareness , I appretiate there efforts but we should remember that only a small percentage of Indians are online. Most of the patriots in city are virtual warriors whereas enemies of nations are doing ground work for planned destruction of India step by step. Maoists have used the ills of society and corrupt rulers to fan hatred and captured power by using voilent means in Nepal. They are boosted by their victory in neighbouring hill kingdom and using the similar tactics in India and red corridor is involved in bloodshed in almost 40% of the area in India. Check any newspaper and you will find that civilians as well as forces are getting killed by these maoists guerillas in India. Bigger danger is covering whole India is green corridor or threat of islamist jehad. We have lost whole Gandhar , Hindukush, East Bengal , West Punjab, Sindh, and half Kashmir which we are still showing in our map to fool ourselves. Bombs are exploding in every corner of India. Innocent civilians are getting butchered in Trains, Temples , Buses, Hotels , Aeroplanes, markets , Restaurants, Roads . Jehadis have attacked our most important temples of Akshardham, sankatmochan , Jammu Raghu Temple. They have threatened to stop amarnath yatra . They have also attacked Ram Janmabhoomi in Ayodhya and also Parliament of India.They are killing us on daily and suicide attacks are rising in every city. Jehadis have attacked Jaipur which had no history of communal voilence. Fundamentalists are practising polygamy and multiplying exponentially. This is nothing but demographich Jehad against Tolerant Indians who will be outnumbered soon in their homeland and will be massacred like in Kashmir. Madrassas or Islamic Seminaries are poisoning young minds with voilent ideology of Jehad and preparing an entire next generation of suicide bombers. On the other hand our Politicians are engaged in making money by unfair means and releasing terrorists , increasing subsidy for hajj , giving licences for cow slaughter abbatoires, financing Waqf Board , salaries to mullas, ..list is endless. PM Manmohan Singh loses his sleep because a Terrorist of Indian origin gets arrested red handed in australia but the same PM sleeps well when bombs explodes in Mumbai , Jaipur , Delhi, Bangalore, Hyderabad ,Coimbatore. First of all we should educate ourselves well about the issues and do some real ground work at grass root level to bring some change. With all respect to your honest efforts , I still would like to say that making a blog and writing few posts will lead us no where. We should think , plan and implement something at mass level otherwise its matter of time before Saffron and White Colours in Indian Tricolour will be replaced by Green and Cresent -star.

    India is heading towards destruction. Its duty of the real Indians to save it even if it is done on our dead bodies.

    Long Live Mother India.

  • 27. B Shantanu said:

    @ Mahesh: I thought long and hard about some of the points that you made in your earlier comment.

    At one level, you are right, leadership begins at grassroots. There probably will never be any substitute for having an on-the-ground established support baseand as both you and I well know, many a national leader has failed due to the lack of this connection with the local community and the local leadership.

    The key question is how does one develop this support base? One way is to do what you suggest i.e. make your fortress stronger first (before conquering others)

    But does your fortress have to be a local community (as in a geographical sense)? Can my fortress be
    my community of readers and commentators on this blog? Is it possible? Is it viable?

    I would like to think it isand if I work hard on earning the trust, confidence and loyalty of this community, I believe I can begin to move to the next fortress, the next support base and so on

    The next challenge is one of moving up the leadership chain. A lot of energetic, young leaders and activists who are doing tremendous work at the ground level underestimate the challenge of moving on to the next stage of leadership.

    I think you will agree that organizing at a state level is an order of magnitude (or more) difficult than organizing at the district level and while I am not suggesting that the district-level organization is not necessary, one must also pay attention to building the organisation to the mext level.

    I therefore see the relationship between grassroots efforts and a FTI/Loksatta like group to be symbiotic and mutually beneficial rather than contradictory.

    There is no reason why we cannot work togetherand every reason why we must work together.

    As for your comment re. the statue of liberty on freedom team website, I will let Sanjeev comment on that.

    ***
    @ Pramod: Thanks for your kind words.

    I take your point re. blogs and their limited reach and impact amongst the masses in India today.
    I have no illusion that this blog can change the system it cannotbut this community of readers, commentators and participants can and that includes you

    I see this blog as a forum for coming together, discussing views and making connectionsThe actual work must be done on the groundI have a post in the making for many months now in which I have tried to grapple with the challenge of what would it take to successfully kick-start a campaign of political reform? How much money? How many people? How much time? There are no easy answers to these questions and our we will need to be creative in thinking through some out-of -box options or ideas.

    The dangers facing the country and the threats to our freedom and way of life are real and are present and in some cases, deeply rootedThese threats cannot be overcome by online discussions and blogsbut what we can do online is to begin to gather people, make them aware of the issues, prime them for the time when we really need their helpand stay connected, stay together.

    I fully agree with you that We should think, plan and implement something at mass level
    The question is how and what?

    In earlier comments on this blog (see here and here ), I had said that
    POLITICS is a FULL-TIME JOB, IT DOES NOT PAY, YOU CAN pretty much FORGET ABOUT YOUR FAMILY LIFE and you will very likely be LIVING UNDER the THREAT of physical harm

    And I am not yet ready to commit myself full-time to this. Why? Two main reasons:

    1] I have responsibilities that I cannot forego and I do not have the luxury of not needing to work

    2] Equally importantly, I am still working on an action plan which includes, amongst other things, having clear, coherent and practical view on a range of issues that confront us, as a society and as a nation

    Does that mean my efforts will always be limited to theorizing and armchair strategizing? I hope not.

    In my mind I have a clear view of a few years after which I will be able to devote time to do this. If things go in a certain way, that day may be much nearer.

    Until that time, I am working hard on developing my awareness about the issues that confront us and thinking of ways to ameliorate them.

    This is the going to be one very long journey and we have just begun.

  • 28. Mahesh Patil said:

    Nuclear Deal and Globalization?

    Today if you ask any comman person, Which of the country is rich, India or America?
    The answer comes out immmediately i.e. offcourse America. So if we go by the comman perception that a rich person lends to a poor person or viz a viz poor person begs,steals,takes money from rich person.

    But in the era of Globalization, the above perception is exactly opposite of the reality i.e. The perceived rich country like America on other hands begs,borrows,bullys money from India,China,
    Asian,Middle east and Muslim countries.

    Today America borrows a whopping $800 billion to $1trillion per year from these countries.
    The Fiscal Debt of America has gone up to $4trillion. The Fed reserves have lowered their interest
    rates up to 3% since most of the banks have red in their balance sheets. Citibank is about to write
    of $18billion in debt. In short America is a sinking ship and if ever America hits rescession, the BRICS
    nations are going to bare the most brunt.

    Now why or what is the reason behind the American economy sinking and the Sub prime crises
    . The answer is simple
    America has No family based value system. i.e. an individual over there if he/she earns Rs100
    he spends Rs107 i.e. a deficit of -7%. Which is very logical even if we compare it with us. i.e.
    a Married man is more responsible while spending his Rs100 then a bacholar one. And in America
    the institution called has marraige has totally collapsed, and a new instittuion called Live in Relations
    or Step father and Step mother terms are more comman.

    But countries like India and China are saving economies which saves anywhere between 25 to 50%
    of their total income. The world saving cash reserves are around some 4$ trillion.and India has a
    cash reservres of $200billion. Now if you ask any CA wherever there is credit it has to balanced
    by Debit. So more than half of the wealths money rest with US in form of debt.

    Now lets just see how US is playing the game of globalization very well and rest of the countries
    have just become slaves of this BIG boss.

    Upto 15th August 1971 the US dollar was backed by gold i.e. $35 = 1ounce of gold but after
    the great depression and what not.. the US dollar was backed by FAITH! , i.e. they can print
    as many treasury bills as they want. In short whatever we are exporting to them , in returns
    the dollars we are getting are nothing just tissue papers. Further to hide their defecit, The
    US fed Reserves passed a law in March 06 stating that they need not disclose how much dollar is in circulation in the world.

    The first Intelligent Man to oppose openly that dollar is nothing but tissue Paper was the Late. Saddam Hussien. He traded his oil only in Euros, and thats the reason why US said… Saddam has
    weapons of Mass distruction where the poor chap couldnt even manufacture a scotter.

    The Second target was Iran because… Iran wanted to create its own Oil Excange and discontinue
    trading their oil from NYSE/LSE or in US.DOLLARs..

    The people think US are attacking IRaq and Iran for Oil fields … no.. they just want to protect
    their artificaly valued currency from being replaced by other currency. …

    US MILITARY is the only military in the world who apart from border security tasks also looks after the security of its currency… by making threats to Iraq,Iran,NKorea.

    In todays scenario to attack US, all you need to do is short $1trillion dollars in money market, which
    China can easily do, but it wont as China although knowing the US dollar is useless , needs a market
    to export..as they dont have consumption based economy and plus they dont want to devalue their own reserves which are in US$

    The Nuclear Deal is just ridiculus in the current format, why to form a Strategic alliance with a
    weak financial partner like US?…. what are they going to offer their top end products ?.. or just
    suck off some of their devalued dollar out of Indian govt by ridiculusly overcharging us
    of those technologies…

    WHY THE DEAL IN DOLLARS.. why not in INR or EURO?… arent we in globalization , then why not
    INdian currency is acceptable to US?… what are these nuts politicians fighting on some stupid issue.

    IF we are talking of globalization why is it just from our end… 49% FDI allowed.. 71% FDI allowed
    with their tissue dollars.. then why has US kept Security and Strategic investment Act. i.e. before
    a foreginer buys US companies .. it requires the govt approvals…

    I am a strong advocate of Govt Run businesses. Soverign Wealth Fund, why isnt India creating one?.. unlike China and Middle east?.. Its a pockets change for India to buy American Companies like Yahoo or Microsoft or Coke and Pepsi with LIC/SBI funds reserves..

    But no America talks of globalization and strategic alliance when comes to nuclear deal but writes
    its own Hyde act, WTO,World Bank norms accordiing to suit themselves

    US $ is a commodity which is sinking , we need to invest our publics money in assets, which is our own nation.. by buying Indian stuff…. increasing Indian consumption… no need to worry about
    savings.. as it is in our blood.. and FAMILY VALUES..

    In short Indianize the world with Indian Culture… no need to globalize India with US culture.

  • 29. Patriot said:

    **** Long Comment, but I hope you read it *****

    Dear Mahesh Patil,

    If your economic thinking is symptomatic of the thinking of BPD – then, I am afraid that you and your party are still spouting the old theories of socialism, which have failed us so spectacularly in India. I invite you to join the Freedom Team of India (which you can without having to give up any other membership) to be exposed to a different type of thinking.

    Firstly, you say “I am a strong advocate of Govt Run businesses. Soverign Wealth Fund, why isnt India creating one?.. unlike China and Middle east?..”

    I believe that the government should only be involved in those things that can not provided at an individual level, to wit, protection from external enemies (defence), protection from internal goons (home and law and order) and some common infrastructure (roads, primary schools, primary healthcare, although the last one is debatable) and that is it. Everything else should be provided by individuals, singly, or in groups, or in the form of a corporate.

    You talk of sovereign funds – the sovereign is the last person on earth who should have sovereign funds – they will always be managed in a sub-optimal manner, and is a complete disservice to the tax payer. There is NO accountability in sovereign funds, and hence no responsibility and hence, no performance.

    I would urge you to study the Japanese investments in USA during the eighties and the investment of the prince of Saudi Arabia in Citibank over the nineties and this decade to understand how these investments end up returning capital to the USA and nothing to these investors. I am sure US policy makers are very pleased about the various Gulf and Chinese sovereign funds and their investments in the USA – if they could, they would probably even advertise to them, please come and own our assets! Wait for this cycle to be over – you will find that the gulf states have just returned their oil profits to the US in some other form!

    The question that then arises is what makes people invest in the USA, cycle after cycle, in both debt and equity – and I believe that the answer lies in America’s way of life, way of doing business and the fact that it holds individuals supreme over the state and that it is prepared to allow, nay encourage the best of the individuals, in the world, to come and reside in the USA and work there. The freedom of the individual (which also moves in cycles in the USA, and hit its ebb during the current Bush years) allows people the freedom to fail without fear, which creates the overall environment of success. Remember, the US is the youngest nation in the world, among the developed countries, and yet the undisputed leader. The other aspect that people in India generally miss is the efficiency of the US economy in adjusting …. take the subprime crisis … we have been through it for two quarters, it will probably take another 2-3 quarters to flush it out of the system …. and then US will be back, rocking. Compare that with Japan, whose economy fuelled by a similar real estate boom, crashed in 1985 ….. it has still not completely recovered. THAT is the difference.

    Yes, the US has an unfair advantage over the rest of the world ….. it prints the world’s reserve currency. But, do remember that it originally acquired this status through its blood ….. by saving Europe (and the world) from Hitler. When India does something similar, we can ask for reserve status for the Rupee, as well.

    The US is a sinking power in the dreams of the communists and the socialists ….. people constantly underestimate the ability of the US economy to adjust and bounce back ….. they constantly underestimate its people, which includes a sizeable number of productive Indians, as well.

    And, as far as the fiscal deficit of the US goes, you have a fiscal deficit with your barber, with your grocery shop, with your bank (if you have borrowed for a house), with your daily maids …… does that bother you? If not, why not?

    It is amazing to me that educated people, especially patriotic people who want to see India regain its old glory, do not understand how strategically important the nuclear deal is …. and the less said of the BJP, the better, trying to score inane political points instead of standing for the nation’s interest. In one line, the nuclear deal gives us a SEAT at the world’s highest political TABLE. Period. It makes us a quasi-permanent member of the Security Council, and in time, an actual one. Brajesh Mishra, the NSA of BJP, is wholeheartedly behind the deal as is Dr Kakodkar, the chief of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission and our former president, APJ Abdul Kalam, who was the architect of our weaponisation program. So, apart from the blood-traitors, the communists, why would anyone be opposed to this deal?

    Do you even understand what this deal means, strategically? China can never attack us again. EVER. We have so far not developed ICBMs due to fear of condemnation from the US/Europe and lack of enough fissile material to arm them – we can now extend our missile range to put Beijing, Sanghai and the entire eastern coast of China under the trigger. Essentially, we would be levelling the playing field with China.

    There are already very strong technological hooks between the US and India – this deal would strengthen them to the extent that we will be able to leapfrog Germany and Japan as a technological power.

    Shantanu commented elsewhere on Amar Singh and his comments …. I don’t care. For this deal, I would sup with the devil to get it done. This is Realpolitiks in the real world, something we did not practice for the first 50 years post independence.

    And, something for everyone to mull over – Indira Gandhi and Homi Bhabha were the original architects of the Indian nuclear program in 1974 (after the US seventh fleet menaced us during the 1971 Bangladesh war). Then, it went into a limbo. Rajiv Gandhi gave the green signal to advance the nuclear program. PV Narasimha Rao presided over the weaponisation program, but did not pull the trigger, apparently under US pressure. AB Vajpayee pulled the trigger, had sanctions imposed on India but India moved the closest that it has to the US under his regime, including the sanctions being lifted. Dr Manmohan Singh got the nuclear deal agreement with George Bush, in the teeth of opposition from the US NPT lobby, which is extremely powerful. If there has been a truly national policy and movement, it has been our nuclear sojourn …. and now we want to join the blood-traitors, the communists in opposing it?

    Good for the SP, Shame on the BJP.

  • 30. Mahesh Patil said:

    Whatever i express on this forum are representation of collective thoughts of people whom i represent,And as far as BPD,the offical stands are conveyed by Press releases.

    And BPD is not against the nuclear deal but current format of Nuclear deal is to be modified to be acceptable and benifit India.

    We believe in “Aggressive Nationalism”… i.e. promote and celebrate proudly being Indian and buying Indian.
    We want to see our Indian Vada Pav to compete with their burger.We want to see our Masala Dosa to compete with their pizza’s. We want to see our Indian farmer gets the right price for its produce in International markets.

    But for this to happen we need to provide these people with level playing field. The current govt is very much fond of reservation… maybe reserving and renting at subsidised or rockbottom rate allocate 20 to 30% quota of City Mall shops for the farmers/SSI produce where they can have a direct selling model wont be a bad Idea.

    Indian economy is a Savings cum Consuming economy with 1 billion people.. and we are unlike china who is just a savings one. We have a huge market for our own products.. just we need to market it better… the way we market tendulkars and SRK…

    Dear Patriot,
    Thats what i have exactly conveyed through my post that,
    US has a federal Printing Press.. with no one to Check how many treasury notes are they printing.So even if they hit a sub prime crisis or rescession they BAIL out..!!! thats why the gold backing was removed after the stock market crashes
    and the great depression after WW2.

    US is nothing but what we call in Mumbai as a Show shiner..
    with their fancy offices with sexy receptionist and big SUV’s and huge homes.. which helps them show that they are Credit worthy… But there are N number of eNron in waiting
    to happen!!!

    In US a person who earns $25000/year can buy a mortgage load
    of 500K to $1million… why because u just need to pay just
    interest that too 0% for 1st six months then 0.5% for next three years and max 6%…. all printing press ka kamaal…

    Can an Indian with Rs25000/year dream a house for Rs5lakhs?
    .. nope … the day we move our currency on Faith.. surely
    even we can… BUT our INDIANS treat our money as GODDESS
    LAXMI.. i doubt they would ever remove that backing

    People in early 70′s use to say the communist will never fall.. if someone said or even concieve that kind of idea he would be called a fool… Similarly US economy has to fall and the day is near… and i think India holds the key to US fall…

    How do you think INdia will attend the super power status by 2050??.. when the number 1 tumbles!

    As far as FTI is concered its a good idea…. drafted by an American (since i saw a liberty statue symbol in one of the docs) a remixed version of a loose coalition like NDA or UPA…. But the time is not ripe for the new generations political parties to unite as of now in my opinion. In Mumbai there is a saying “Ek bewda dusrey bewdeko kya sahara dega”

  • 31. Mahesh Patil said:

    Dear Shantanu,

    You mentioned saying “can my community and my readers be my fortress”.

    The above line gave me a new dimension to think about, as geographical boundries dont hold bar, as your blog has developed some loyal writers and readers.. just a day back one my grossroot net savvy party member mentioned to me about your blog

    Maybe the term fortress in todays terms is to develop strong bondS.. which only can be developeded by repeatative and continuous interaction with that group… And the group/fortress could be an online group(blogs/communities) or the group of people on the Naka(Geographicaly).

  • 32. Patriot said:

    “And BPD is not against the nuclear deal but current format of Nuclear deal is to be modified to be acceptable and benifit India.”

    Who is the expert in your group who is qualified to comment on the format of the deal? What are her/his credentials? Why are they better than Brajesh Mishra or APJ Abdul Kalam?

    It is very easy to say we do not like the current format, but excuse me, are you chaps even qualified to comment? How many physicists do you have in your group? How many people with defence experience? How many people with war-room experience?

    “unlike china who is just a savings one.”

    Where is your evidence for this motherhood statement?

    “US has a federal Printing Press.. with no one to Check how many treasury notes are they printing.So even if they hit a sub prime crisis or rescession they BAIL out..!!! thats why the gold backing was removed after the stock market crashes
    and the great depression after WW2.”

    There was no stock market crash after WW2 ….. in fact, the Marshall plan brought in an era of prosperity, as Europe was rebuilt and US supplied many of the materials and all of the money. Get your facts right before commenting.

    Every country has a printing press …. have you heard of a measure called M3? In layman’s terms, it measures how much money has been injected into a country’s economy …and this is by printing money.

    Most global currencies are fungible and convertible in nature …. do not like USD, convert it into euros and keep it in that format. You can trade with all of Europe in euros, don’t have to accept dollars. US will only take dollars, can’t blame them for it, can you?

    Certain commodities are denominated in USD, which is what makes it the reserve currency of the world. But, even that is changing …. euros has become the second reserve currency in the world, second in importance to the USD. It could become the lead reserve currency of the world, as well. But, will that tank the US economy? Dream on ….

    If the US is able to get over the Sub-prime crisis by having other countries invest in it, why is that? Are they stupid? Collectively and individually? Or is it because they see the US still as the engine of global growth? Or because they see this as a great opportunity to invest with a 5-year view. My experience is that people are not usually stupid with their investment decisions.

    “US is nothing but what we call in Mumbai as a Show shiner..
    with their fancy offices with sexy receptionist and big SUVs and huge homes.. which helps them show that they are Credit worthy But there are N number of eNron in waiting
    to happen!!!”

    Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    “People in early 70s use to say the communist will never fall.. if someone said or even concieve that kind of idea he would be called a fool Similarly US economy has to fall and the day is near and i think India holds the key to US fall”

    The communists lasted for all of 70 years before they self-destructed. The US, as a liberal democracy, has lasted for over 250 years and is still the leading economy of the world, by far …. with only 300m people currently. If people like the Congress, communists, BDP continue with their socialistic policies, the US is well set to attract 50m of the brightest Indians to its shores and last for another 250 years as the leading economy of the world. So much for superpower status by 2050.

    Please understand one thing today ….. that it is intellectual power that drives the world today. By and large, intellectual power will gravitate to the place that offers them the best place to flourish, irrespective of where the national boundaries lie. We forget this at our peril.

    And, the US is a great example of the above …. their military power and successes was based on the theories and ideas brought to them by German (Jewish) scientists fleeing persecution in their native country. Silicon Valley was partially powered by the Tam brams fleeing a poor environment and persecution in India.

    “As far as FTI is concered its a good idea. drafted by an American (since i saw a liberty statue symbol in one of the docs) a remixed version of a loose coalition like NDA or UPA.”

    Well done, shot from the hip as usual, without bothering to actually explore the site. The site and the concept has been set up by an ex-IAS officer, Sanjeev Sabhlok. The flame of liberty is universal …. does not belong to any one country. If you actually go through the site, you will realise that we are not creating a coalition ….. but a formal, strategic structure to reform India. I agree with Sanjeev on this, that without such a structure, we will just continue to muddle along, no matter the number of new parties that come along. The performance of LP in Karnataka should be an eye-opener in this regard.

    Well, good luck to the BPD and its old wine in new bottles.

    I am done responding on this issue.

    Cheers

  • 33. B Shantanu said:

    Mahesh, quick (and short) reaction to your comment of July 5 which I read with great interest… It makes a lot of valid points but I am not sure about the link between Nuclear Deal and the value of US currency…or between family values and decline in dollar…
    For regardles of the value of dollar, there is no denying that USA possesses (or has access to) some of the best technology in the world, some of the best R&D facilities in the world (in a number of diffeent fields)….and some of the best brains in the world (whether they were originally American or migrated to America is besides the point, I feel)

    Secondly the link between the devalued dollar and the Iraq invasion is tenuous (I feel)

    I would agree with you that India does need to consider the creation of a Sovereign Wealth Fund but again that is a separate topic in itself and there may be other views out there (e.g. Patriot has made some counter-points in his comment dt July 7)

    Anyways, I think this has been a useful discussion…

    Thanks for contributing, as always..

  • 34. Mahesh Patil said:

    Closing comments

    Yes the Freedom symbol: the flame of liberty is as Universal as English language… so does English qualifies to be our National language?….

    As i have already said India doesnt lack freedom symbols..
    right from the Indian National flag to Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.

    And more older the wine the better it tastes.. new bottle doesnt matters.!!

    Jai hind Jai Maharashtra

  • 35. Rakesh said:

    I have doubts whether BPD will succeed or not.

    After bad experience of lok paritran , it is hard to believe that whether BPD is different from lok paritran or it is same wine in different bottle as it is offshoot of lp.

    Can Mahesh Patil list out some difference between LP and BPD ..
    Both are Youth Parties lead by IITians , Claim to be Nationalists and provide honest , transparent and corruption free governance.

    we have seen transparency and honesty of LP in Karnataka and Tamilnad , now can you tell how bharat punarnirman dal is different from lp . Are you one party with different name splitted publicaly to achieve the same aim by just using different names and slogans.

    your detailed reply will be highly appretiated.

  • 36. Mahesh Patil said:

    Thanks Rakesh for putting up the Question, as this is the 1st of a kind question asked to myself.. As normaly people ask how are we different from other existing political partys.

    How is BPD different from Lok Paritran?..
    My obvious answer would be, You should actually join and see for yourself.

    First i would like to clear the Myths.. that all the members of BPD were from Lok Paritran. All of us including myself were associated with a movement called as “youth in Politics” and the only platform that did excisted at that time was Lok Paritran. Although we supported and wanted to join the movement called Lok Paritran including myself but we didnt nor were we as an office bearer or occupied any official post or contested any elections on LP’s ticket.

    In BPD Expect for the National President who was an office bearer in LP no other member of BPD were officially an LP active members. All the co-founders accept the National President of BPD are non LP .So we definately are not “the same wine in a new bottle”

    We as new curious faces in politics.. attended LP meetings of the National President and National General Secretary.. and after listening to them we concluded that their aims, goals and ideologies did not match with ours.So we never joined them.

    So the main difference between BPD and LP i can tell since i attended just those two meetings of LP.. that is our Practising ideologies

    1)LP National leaders are “extreme rightest” and BPD practises “Aggressive Nationalism”.

    2) the LP national committee or founders
    we all IITians.. but in BPD only three out of six national working committee members are from IIT and other maximum of co-founders are non IITian. I myself i a co-founder i am a BSC grad holding a post in the National working committee.

    3)The Media branded us as IITians party and to fair we also utilized the tag for public acceptibility… but today after one and half year .. if you see our Media Interviews
    or articles or issues we raise.. there is no mention of the word called IIT. It is just BPD has raised this issue.. BPD comments on this.. or BPD starts an awareness campaign…

    Lok Paritran.. is still banking on the IIT tag.. but we rarely or almost no more use that tag.. thats another major difference developed.We are now branded as youth political
    party which is driven by expereince.

    4)If you look at LP and BPD’s History after every election
    LP has split i.e. after TN,KAR,GUJ but on other hand after
    every election BPD has taken a quantum leap in terms of human power and resources.i.e. BPD contested in Maharashtra
    Civic polls where i myself was a contestant we garnered respectable votes on this public support and morale boost
    we went and won the AP MLC elections.. which provided a
    major boost to outperform our expectations in UP where we even stood ahead of some of the State Parties candidates.

    5)The Issues taken by both of us are completely different i.e.
    LP and some of the other new partys just talks about elemination of corruption and talks about good governance..
    BPD not just talks but have also taken to the streets on the
    issues where we have raised voice against caste based politics(our prime issue),inflation. We promote aggressive nationalism by means of various cultural events. We have taken up mass social issues right from potholes in roads to open drainages ro traffic. And also we take issues from person to person ranging from compensating a poor dead’s relatives from the hospital who cause of death was due to medical negligence,helping people file FIR wherever police dont entertain one etc. We once tipped the ACB=anti corruption bureau for a govt doctor accepting bribes to pass people for medical test of govt servants.. who was nabbed red handed!.
    We have sent written complaints to Assistant Commissioner of Police to stop highway side prostitution etc etc etc..

    In short we are not just talking high level politics of nuclear deal,inflation or reservations but we are touching a life of a single person on daily basis with our activities. THAT IS CALLED AS BASIC POLITICS/SOCIAL WORK..
    which many of the new launch political party breed dont do
    or dont have in thier master plan!.Take my word
    “Before feeling the pulse of masses.. feel the pulse of an
    Individual”.. which BPD does

    6)The 5th point brings to my 6th Differentiating point.LP
    and other new political or wanna be political partys have
    written long ideological text.They have written their policy documents on foreign,economics,defense issues etc.
    some of them have even devised their plan and dates about
    when they will be in power and how the growth will be like
    a corporate projection chart.

    But in BPD we have neither written long ideologies nor have
    devised a PLAN of action of what we will do after one year or ten years or when will be in power.
    Because.. in BPD we believe in learning by experience, so
    more we learn and expereince each day.. the way of looking
    at the same thing improvises a lot.So we have kept our
    Ideology plain and simple i.e. for us
    a)ALL INDIANS are Equal
    b)Always NAtion and NAtional interest first!..
    the above two things works for us like e=mc2 we derive our stands on various issues.

    Similarly why havent we planned meticulusly is because,
    1)To plan you sure shot have to know what kind of resources
    and logistical support you have.. otherwise you cant.
    2)Politics you cannot plan or predict as politics in itself is unpredictable

    We know today we have 1000 people for this event but after that events success the number can be 10000 or 100000 you never know as this is politics.The public sentiments cannot be predicted.So instead of planning for 5, 10 or 20 years. We chase and plan our immediate goal… which has been working pretty well for us.

    7)Most new political partys including LP think of elections
    as the corner stone and how many candidates they can field without having a base to support that candidate.They field their candidate and then they accordingly try to build their organizational base around that candidate which fades away as the election air is over.

    BUt in BPD it is exactly opposite because we are building an organization first we carry out activities.Looking at our active presence in that area by default gives us a good lists of candidate whenever the elections are around.
    That candidate may have his own followers who add up to the existing BPD team and after elections the candidate supporter base may dissolve but the tempo never dies as the basic organization is still up and functioning

    Inshort the weightage of organization building is more and is an independent activity from contesting elections.

    8)Now lets go into the NUmber difference after BPD was formed
    BPD has was won 2 MLC seats in AP.LP has to register one yet
    BPD contested on 9 MLA seats in UP. LP just 2
    BPD contested in 2 MLC seats in UP. LP contested 1MLA in Guj
    BPD contested in 3 Civil elections seats in Mah. LP none
    BPD to contest on 1 MLC seat from Pune on 15th July 2008.LP none
    BPD has branched into Delhi,UP,Mah,AP,Bihar and soon will be
    covering most of the central states.

    I can confidently say no other partys mentioned in this blog and some other new political factions have such a wide and deep presence with as much activity factor as we have.

    And the win win formalue which is working for BPD i.e.
    a)Keep it simple
    b)Basic ground level Politics

    I remember a dialogue from the Movie GURU of Abhishek Bachhan and Aiswaryaa rai .. in which he says in hindi “Lok jab tumharey virudha bolna chalu kare toh samaj na tum tarakki kar rahey ho” i.e. The day people start to speak against you, that shows you are progressing.

    I was very happy for the 1st time when i recieved a direct threat when i stood for elections… or in recent time an indirect message from COngress’s high command via their top brass saying ” why BPD wants to contest elections just get voting awareness in people”

    So everytime some one says BPD wont succeed its like a medal to our chest or star to our shoulders peeps.

    IF ANY OF THE READERS wishes to receive the ground activity updates emails of BPD please you can email address to Shantanu’s email

    Jaihind!

  • 37. Rakesh said:

    Well Said Mahesh.

    Great Work.

    Wish you success.

    I am supporter of Nationalism.

    If you are building your base and you are honest in your intent to serve Nation , you will succeed.

    If most things are common between you and LP , why both parties are not merging to form a common front so that United Front can cover whole India. You are stronger in UP , Delhi , MP, Maharashtra , Gujarat, AP.
    Lok Paritran has contested in Tamilnadu , Karnataka, Kerala,Goa, Orrisa, Assam.

    There are hundreds of smaller groups , NGOs, parties, which are involved in politics and social work.If you are able to attract people from YFE ( youth for equality) , Sanjeev Sabloks Freedom,Bharat Udai Mission, Swadeshi, Bharat bachao morcha, Rajeev Dikshits azadi Bachao andolan..
    Your power will multilpy several times and you will be able to expand faster. People are fedup of Congress , BJP , SP , NCP and others. These Commies and Pro Pakistan , Pro China parties are worthless either. People are desperate and want an alternative and you along with Shantanu Bhai are capable of providing one. BPD led National Front should field its candidates in almost 250 lokh sabha seats in coming polls..Trust me you will get good share of votes.
    I also suggest you to make your student wing and enter youth politics..Universities are manufacturing units for future leaders. Also start Farmer Wing , Science Wing , IT Wing , Labour Wing , Women Wing, Industrialist Wing, Ex-servicemen wing,etc.

    There are almost 1000 groups online who are involved in spreading awareness about the Nationalist Issues. There are millions in BJP , Congress , BSP ,SP , NCP , ShivSena , CPM ,CPI , TDP, DMK, AIDMK who would like to support and vote for the National Front..

    My vote goes for the cause of Nation.

    JAI HIND

  • 38. B Shantanu said:

    A glimmer of hope:

    http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/aug/05cpm.htm

    …In a unique initiative, students from IIM-Ahmedabad will work with Communist Party of India – Marxist politburo member Sitaram Yechury and help in planning for the Member of Parliament Local Area Development Scheme this year. They will be involved in the National Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme and Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan.

    Provisions of the Right to Information Act will be analysed. Students will assess funds spent by the constituency and create a monitoring system for the performance of the NGOs and local bodies.

    Talks are on with other politicians for a similar project.

    Around 40 students of IIM-A had worked as poll-observers in the Gujarat elections.

  • 39. Prasun Gupta said:

    Bharat Uday Mission President Suspended

    Managing Committee members meeting was held on August 9-10, 2008 in Gwalior Head Office.

    1) Suspension of President – Managing committee has decided to initiate disciplinary action against Dr. Akalpita paranjpe due to the following reasons:
    —(a) —- She proposed to open separate Bank account in Mumbai in addition to already working bank account in head office Gwalior. She kept all the whereabouts with her about the persons wishing to donate to BHUMI. Committee got unsatisfactory reply regarding this issue and witnessed her stubbornness to open the BHUMI bank account in Mumbai.

    —(b) — She proposed the name of her husband Dr. Srinivas for the status of Full Time member of BHUMI. His retirement was presented by her as a sacrifice for BHUMI. Managing Committee decided that his decision was because of his personal reasons which has nothing to do with BHUMI. When asked about the role played by him for the development of BHUMI, she argued that since he was with her, so he should be given the status of full time member.

    —(c) — when managing committee enquired about the issue of BM yahoo group ownership, she refused to discuss this matter with managing committee members. Managing committee announced that she had to leave the sole ownership of the BM yahoo-group else shed her responsibility as a President of BHUMI and BharatUdayMission. She refused to obey the decision.

    All these reasons and her behaviour compelled Managing Committee to take disciplinary action in the form of Suspension of her powers as a president of Bhumi. Managing Committee also decided that her efforts regarding the registration of BharatudayMission as a political party should not be supported.
    From now onwards she will not be recognised as a member of BharatUdayMission. She cannot raise any donation in the name of BharatUdayMission and BHUMI.

  • 40. Mahesh Patil said:

    As predicted in my comment # 30… about AMerican companies and american economy collapsing..

    Lehman bros is just another example after freddy and fannie.
    The Indian investors pockets are bleeding after sharp FII withdrawals since FII contribute 70% of liquidity in turnovers. And rupee is back to 46/$

    One silver lining is, crude is trading at 91$/barrel.

  • 41. Patriot said:

    Dear Mahesh,

    As a politician, political leader and part of a party that aspires to power, I would advise you to learn a bit about economics. Political power flows out of an economics gun. If you or your party does not understand economics, then you will be in the same mess as the Congress or any other legacy party, irrespective of how good your governance agenda may be.

    While it is nice to score some easy points on a political blog (especially with others who do not understand capitalism) by taking pot shots at USA, let us also try to understand how it became the world’s leading economic power in less than 100 years, and without colonies. Surely, there are lessons there, which could be important for India?

    Let me give you the *full” list of *large* failed/bought out institutions in the USA in the current bloodbath:

    Countrywide Financials
    Bear Stearns
    Fannie Mae
    Freddie Mac
    Lehman Brothers
    Merrill Lynch

    This is the end game of something that started in 1998, relating to fears about what would happen to computers on the changeover to 2000. The Fed’s response was to boost liquidity in the markets (to cater for any eventuality), which led to the wild dot com boom and bust. The bust was happening as the Fed was tightening the screws – to ensure that the bursting of the dot com bubble did not create undue mayhem, it started to loosen liquidity again. That led to the creation of a new bubble – in real estate, this time. But, the Fed had to burst this bubble itself, as inflation was rising (thanks to India/China) – so, rates started rising. Anyone from finance would tell you that rising interest rates is a death knell for rising real estate prices.

    Meanwhile, Wall street had been making merry with the cheap capital that the Fed made available to them, and started mispricing risk, on a big scale, especially for housing mortgages.

    The meltdown that started in mid-2007 when the commercial banks started disclosing sub-prime losses was the start of the payback. Then you had the “govt backed” Freddie/Fannie. Now, you have the investment banks. One final leg down is still to happen – the insurance companies, they still have to make some serious markdowns and some minicipal corporations in the US will have to make some serious writedowns, may even go bust.

    But, this is not really news to people in the financial markets – many analysts (including myself) have been calling for a housing market meltdown for sometime (past 2yrs) because the excesses can not be sustained long term. The question was only “who” and “when” and never “if”.

    But, the good news is that after this bloodletting, the system starts afresh. All the bad stuff have been wiped out and the slate is clean. What a great thing that is to have.

    Please also think about the following points:

    1. We may like or dislike the USA, but one can never deny one thing – that the US is very fast to clean up its system, once the malaise is identified or in the open. The US economy is still the biggest in the world, and it may decline by 1-2% for a couple of quarters, but will that knock them off their pedestal? Hardly. And, the growth will be back after a couple of quarters.

    2. Retribution is swift and sure in the USA – Bear Stearns did stupid things, it is gone, it is history. Their shareholders are wiped out, and all the stock options held by management worthless. Freddie/Fannie – same, all the shareholders have been wiped out. The US govt is rethinking its position as to why it should offer an implicit guarantee to their bondholders. After the clean-up, it is very likely that these two cos will be split into 4-7 new cos, with no govt backing. Mispricing of risk that happened previously, thanks to these two, is gone, then. Lehman brothers – did stupid things with their capital, it is now history. All shareholders wiped out, most bondholders will get maybe 15-20 cents on the dollar for their stupidity in dealing with lehman.

    Does anyone remember Arthur Anderson – once one of the Big-5, and the most arrogant of the lot, to boot. Screwed up with Worldcom, the Feds filed criminal charges (not civil) against the company and effectively put it out of business. Gone. History. No more big-5, only big-4.

    Do compare that with our systems – the NPAs in the banks, the bribes paid for loans, the decades companies have spent in BIFR while their owners are having fun, the mills in mumbai (you should be familiar with this one, Mahesh).

    3. The flexibility of the US systems – the thing I admire most about the US is the ability of their systems to do a quick turnaround. The real estate mess is such a big mess, but the worst is over in one year. Another six months, and the economy will be growing again. Compare that with Japan, which went through a similar real estate bubble in the mid-80′s. TWENTY YEARS later, they have still not recovered from it. The Indian real estate bubble has also burst now, although many people are still in denial. We shall see how long it takes Mumbai real estate prices to recover. (Last time, it took 10 years 1993-2002).

    4. The world is an inter-connected place today. We realise that what happens in the US affects us, but what we do not realise is that what happens in India also has the power to affect US, now. We benefit from the gains, we have to share some of the pains. I realise that some of us would like to insulate ourselves completely, but the only way to do that is to return to the autaurkic 60′s and 70′s. Do you remember that period – when you had to wait 10 years to get a telephone connection? I, for one, would pass.

    BTW, if you are really interested in the story behind the downfall of Lehman Brothers, do read this:
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d9792572-8358-11dd-907e-000077b07658,dwp_uuid=11f94e6e-7e94-11dd-b1af-000077b07658.html

    And, the effect of crude price falling is negated by the falling rupee …. it is an inter connected world, my dear!

    Cheers

  • 42. Mahesh Patil said:

    Dear Patriot,

    “crude price falling is negated by the falling rupee” or (rising dollar). thats exactly what i am saying, why are we still trading crude in dollar?… why not riyals,why not Euros or for that matter why not indian rupee… why should we have the brunt of domino effect of the dollar over the inter connected world .

    Bottomline is why trade in currency which not even has a soverign guarentee of its own country.

    As far as US economy is concered as i mentioned in my earlier post .. you really dont need to be a analyst to predict the US future .. its comman sense…and the main reason is

    1)They dont have a family system left… it has gone complete bust!.. which is never going to turnaround. And family system is the base of any economy…
    No economist can beat home ministers( woman of the family)
    which US lack!

    2)US imports most of the stuff… because they are turning less compititive w.r.t BRICS… mainly china and India.

    Only industry thats keep US up is military hardware, top end space technology, bio medical apparatus and molecular research. or in short only place the dow stocks are gone keep up are the high tech enterprises.

    जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!


    Patriot the only question one needs to ask is.. Will the American family based value system turnaround? will they be able to fix their american family values ? and not the economy!

  • 43. Patriot said:

    *** COMMENT COMBINED ***

    Dear Mahesh,

    ““crude price falling is negated by the falling rupee” or (rising dollar). thats exactly what i am saying, why are we still trading crude in dollar?”

    To understand this part, you have to learn about the Bretton Woods conference and the various developments that followed the US dollar going off the gold standard. To state this very simply, we trade oil in dollars because US dollars became the reserve currency of the world, instead of gold. No other currency had the same respect/acceptability when this happened. One can argue that the Euro could become the second reserve currency of the world, as well, in which case we would trade oil in euros. But, that does not help, either as there are cross-connects between all currencies. The rupee has fallen against both the dollar and the euro.

    “Bottomline is why trade in currency which not even has a soverign guarentee of its own country.”

    I really do not understand what you mean by this? The US is backed by the US government, just as the Indian Rupee is backed by our government.

    “They dont have a family system left… it has gone complete bust!”

    Really? And, on what evidence do you base this statement? Baywatch?

    “US imports most of the stuff… because they are turning less compititive w.r.t BRICS… mainly china and India.”

    You should try and understand the model of the US corporations to understand the outsourcing to India and China. US labour is more expensive, so they outsource to India and China, where labour costs 60-80% lesser – and, this translates into lower prices for US consumers, which keeps the consumer spending and the US economy going. Meanwhile, since the US corp is not transferring the entire cost savings to the consumer, their profitability goes up, allowing them to expand and employ more marketing people. Looks like win-win to me.

    “Only industry thats keep US up is military hardware, top end space technology, bio medical apparatus and molecular research. ”

    You would be surprised …. two of the key US exports are wood and wheat. Japan is the big importer of these items. And, this focus on “industry” is very antediluvian – if the US is the largest economy based on just high-tech, why should we complain or snigger about it?

    Finally, “Will the American family based value system turnaround?”

    I don’t know what you mean, I don’t care, I don’t think it is relevant to the discussion or our issues in India.

    Cheers

    ***

    BTW, it did not take long for the insurance company downleg …. AIG, the biggest insurance company in the world, is now history.

    You have just lived through a period in US and world economic history, that economists and financial analysts will be talking about for the next 50 years! You can tell your grandchildren I was there!

    Cheers

  • 44. Mahesh Patil said:

    Dear Patriot,

    Family based value system is the base of strong economy.
    Since nowadays America lacks the above.. their economy is going to be in doldrums in coming years and which would effect us too since we are over dependent on them in terms of liquidity in form of FDI and FII… thats the connection.

    And i really dont need to give statistics. But still any person who is in touch with current affairs can tell about american family based value system… how fair it is doing.

    baywatch was in 90′s… i dont think anyone even watches that now.

    But yes the alarming rate of divorse is just one of the prime indicator(one quarter of Americans have experienced at least one divorse).

    I always wonder why these Americian presidents or office campaigners always get their complete family along on the stage… well but obvious, to show i am not one in the divorse stats..and i am a family man!… as its a rare picture in america

    Also when i say overdependence on American dollar, its also includes american culture and products.As you rightly mentioned from baywatch too FRIENDS … the new brainwashed gen-x people who think US is cool and follow their customs and traditions.. who are advocating US culture are the ones in India who are having the highest failed marraiges and same credit card probs or bad debts.

    Also thanks to the americans food culture for giving India’s kids who are going to rebuilt India, one of the largest silent killer .. Cholesterol and obesity… in forms of their colas,chips and burgers.

    Today we really need to sit back and be selfish about India.

    Today India is in a position to impact the world … but before that we need to lessen the impact of US on India..
    both in terms of economy and culture.


    As a practising politician, i need to talk both statistics which are past records (which is readily available on the net to support whatever i have said), but also about the future.. (which may not be avialable) and to see or forecast the future of any country you need no analysis ,but you needs to feel the pulse of the nation.

    जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!

  • 45. Patriot said:

    @ Mahesh”
    “As a practising politician, i need to talk both statistics which are past records (which is readily available on the net to support whatever i have said), but also about the future.. (which may not be avialable) and to see or forecast the future of any country you need no analysis ,but you needs to feel the pulse of the nation.”

    Sorry, that is a cop-out just like any other politician. Mera kaam hai kehna, tumhara kaam hai sunna. If YOU are making the argument, you have to provide the evidence, not some other entity.

    “Pulse of the nation”?
    What is that? Is there a single pulse that beats in Kandhamal as the one that beats in Majorda?

    Quotation: the teacher, in such a case, fears his pupils and fawns upon them, while pupils have in low esteem their teachers as well as their overseers; and, overall, the young copy the elders and contend hotly with them in words and in deeds, while the elders, lowering themselves to the level of the young, sate themselves with pleasantries and wit, mimicking the young in order not to look unpleasant and despotic.

    Do you know who wrote the above, bemoaning the state of the youth in his society?

    Plato! In his book, The Republic.

    So, I am never worried when people tell me that our children and youth are getting spoiled and our culture is becoming decadent, etc. I reply that darwin’s theory of genetics assures that our children will always be smarter than us, in aggregate. The newer generation is always better, and so I am happy.

    You have a very anti-US culture view – that is okay. It is your opinion and you have every right to express it and get others around to your viewpoint. But, it is not the only viewpoint – there are plenty of people who love the US culture (without the divorce rate – and what is wrong with that? – shouldn’t women be able to chuck the men they detest?) and think it is a lovely country, with a great standard of living.

    So, it is a battle of ideas – looks like the US one is winning over our Indian “indigenous” one?

    And, what is wrong with American soap or movies? I grew up watching Star Trek, 10, Blue Lagoon, Star Wars series (I know I am dating myself here : ) ) and I think it has had very limited effect on me, except for a very deep respect for American film making.

    Have you ever been to the “red-neck” states of America – Ohio down to Arizona (the mid-west, basically) – you would revise your views of US family life. The coasts (both east and west) are very different and that is what we get to see in American soaps and films.

    And, this is why George Bush, a family loving, rancher and born again christian, won the US presidential election over Al Gore, to the disgust of the people on both East Coast and West Coast. I was in New York, when the 2004 election results were declared and Bush had increased his votes tally – I can tell you that the people of NY were in shock – they could not understand how Bush won.

    So, enough with the generalities ….. let us see some data from you, Mahesh.

    Cheers

  • 46. Indian said:

    What I like about all European and N. American countries; their unity. The words from the Pope are final, leaving behind all the differences. Churches doing very good job for the family and the people. Priests recommends the gov., on many issues through writings and asking others members of the church also to put the same suggestions. And it comes out with result. Family values, I find best upbringings of childern. Only thing, after the age of 21, parents stops taking responsibilities of the children and asks them to find jobs and other stuff. But I see the best arrangement. Bride and grooms arranges their wedding expenses.
    Also for example, making a movies on animal characters shows their creativity and many more things about them. They understands the human values.
    I only see problem is very free culture,divorces, step fathers and step mothers. But they live happily ever after that too, no grudges among each others. But in many ways they are far better than many others in India.

    We loose focus because Indians believe its God’s decision, accept it, they believe in we can change it with care, share and compassion. Thats the reason many Indians family wishes to settle down in all these countries rather than in India, where politicians are dishonest, cannot be trusted, plays foul games with the people and take away their rights.

    Our scriptures too says the same thing but how many of us follows that? The difference is; they implement it and we believe it is good for keeping in the books.

    Jai Hind!

  • 47. Mahesh Patil said:

    Dear Patriot,

    I am not against US or for that matter any other country.
    But i always think about our country first and whats could be best for us. As far as we are at a commanding benificiary in any foreign relations. I support it.

    Further no leader in todays intellectual janta can just
    escape with witty and goosebumps speeches filled with emotions… janta need facts and figures also.

    The irony is people think the politicians no nothing in terms of facts and figures.. they know the system very well.

    Anyways getting back to “data” i would surely post the links available on the web . but the information is in bits and peices .. you need to read it like a web-bot… yes all the articles and events are interlinked.

    And yes your point is right .. pulse of people in majorda,goa will be different from kandhamal.. my domain is Maharashtra .. i can surely potray the sample pulse 1.25lac BPD members of Maharashtra for sure in both National as well as regional context.


    जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!

  • 48. Mahesh Patil said:


    Just to get started , and support my views. please watch the complete video of 56 mins. Its a lecture by a noted person M.R. Venkatesh.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4343898391323537541&q=global+imbalance&ei=X15rSPy8IovEwgOM3YCsDw


    ***

    Also a small presentation of 1 minute by americans itself of how dollar is equalent to tissue paper . The presentation is easy to understand. The numerical facts are
    out the web to support it. which i will provide the links.

    Our 200billion dollar Indian reserve is just Cow manure.
    which we and our future generations will have to deal with in coming years

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fv1DqIen28

  • 49. Patriot said:

    @Indian:
    “The words from the Pope are final, leaving behind all the differences. ”

    Dude, I am sure the pope will be very pleased to hear your comment, but this is NOT true. Christians, like any other religion, are divisive and divided into multiple streams and sects – the major which are Catholicism and Protestantism. The pope is recognised as the supreme religious head only by the Catholics. The Protestants do not recognise either Pope or the Vatican or any of the canons of Roman catholicism. The Christian world is split vertically between these major streams.

    Majority Catholic countries – Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, etc
    Majority Protestant Countries – UK, USA, Germany, Canada.

    The latter have their own spiritual heads, who is different for different countries.

    Interestingly, two points to note – one can make a high degree of correlation between poverty and catholic countries, and wealthy and protestant countries. Many claim that capitalism sprung out of the protestant work ethic.

    Also, you will note that catholic countries’ (france, portugal, spain) colonies invariably became catholic, forsaking their original religion …. but, not so with protestant countries, who are not evangelizing in nature.

    Interesting side topic …. cheers.

  • 50. Patriot said:

    @ Mahesh:
    Providing a video of someone making similar claims is not evidence or facts, that is a presentation of more opinion.

    You have to present hard data to support your thesis. BTW, what is your thesis exactly?

    Cheers

  • 51. Mahesh Patil said:

    Dear Patriot,

    I am putting up my case in front of the blog readers.
    And while presenting in detailed case one can present
    an experts views also, which i am doing by presenting
    views of some of the economist and other related to financial markets and banking.

    And surely i would support them with statistics/charts and facts and evidence in latter stages on how the dollar is going to weaken

    My thesis is simple “Dollar valuation is not real,Get rid of the US dollar and buy some real valued assets”

    and why am i interested in US economy or US dollar is because… India holds a US$200billion reserves (and increasing and by the time we’l be in govt it will be in trillions).. which shouldnt turn into tissue paper.

    If i was in government i would exchange that US$200 billion into gold or Euros or other currencies,

    or by creating soverign fund buy US real estate or like you(patriot) said the most profit making units/products are wood and wheat of US.. so. Buy US agriculture..or buy Microsoft or Oil fields across the world immediately and exit US treasury bills or keep a minimum exposure to it avert financial disaster.

    Today in globalized economy we as a govt need to understand.. what is a asset and what is a liability.
    So exit US liablities like Dollars and buy US assets like
    real estate,agriculture,companies,mines etc.

    HENCE POLITICALY ALSO WE ARE NOT ISOLATING US as we are keeping relations in form of Indias soverign assets in US.
    And also politely getting rid of their Useless dollar… so we wont face the uncle SAMs direct indirect brunt.

    There are many hurdles in the above proposals i have mentioned, right from India creating soverign funds to US allowing India to own their Assets… but since this thread is on “Lets come together to build and new and powerful India” Debates,discussion and consenses building has to be started from now… so when the current generation or we are in power, immediate implementations should take place.


    जय हिंद ! जय महाराष्ट्र !!

  • 52. B Shantanu said:

    Mahesh and Patriot: Thanks for an engaging debate…I will respond to the points in detail later today on my latest post:

    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/09/18/right-left-economic-policy/

    All: Please continue this discussion about economic policy (which is very important for all of us) on the new post here.

    Thanks.

  • 53. Nanda said:

    My understanding is that, FTI has a noble goal of developing india economically, preventing corruption etc.
    But I also understand that FTI is anti-hindu and anti-indian, due to their support for religious conversion, western lifestyle, materialistic ambitions. I get an impression that they undermine the rich history of India, portray the past invading regimes as golden regimes. I also believe they are prejudiced against BJP and RSS, as any fundamentalist christian organization do. No offence meant, but its a genuine confusion on FTI, especially since Santhanu has recommended specifically.

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