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Hinduism, “Caste System” and discrimination - Join the debate

Dear Readers,

I am moving several comments on the Turkey and Secularism post here due to the fact that they are more to do with Hinduism and discrimination and less with the subject of the original post.

Please continue this discussion on this thread.

Thanks

*** COMMENTS BEGIN ***

1. Patriot, on October 8th, 2007

There is this whole positioning about Hinduism (excuse me, VCK) being such a tolerant religion, which has not imposed its faith on others.

I really, really want to question this:

Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is a drawdown from the polytheistic faith of our ancestors who settled in the indus valley region (wherever they came from, that is another debate!). They settled and grew in what was probably the most fertile, productive and habitable region of the civilised world then (ex the Nile region). As a result, they never needed to go out of this region to ensure survival. All they needed to ensure is that any invaders did not wipe out their gene pool. Moreover, as invaders came and settled here, the original inhabitants accepted them into their gene pool, because the Invaders were militarily MORE POWERFUL.

Thus grew the myth of peace loving, non-geographical extending hindus. But, have you considered the following: While the Hindus did not harrass any external faith, they more than made up for it by what they did to people of their own faith!!!

1. The caste system - the longest running discrimination system in the world, both in terms of number of years and volume of people discriminated against
2. The treatment of women - child marriage, Sati, widows sent off to Benares to become prostitutes, temple prostitutes, no chance of owning property, I could go on and on
3. Education - Large scale deprivation of education for 85% of the population. All prayers said in Sanskrit (not understood by 95% of the people, equivalent to Latin masses of the Roman church) - this still goes on, no local languages are used.

I can go on and on, but I think this should be a good starting point for all those who believe Hinduism to be a peaceful religion to respond? And, my point is that a lot of the above practices are STILL going on ��.. hinduism is like a cancer that feeds on its own people.

***

2. v.c.krishnan, on October 8th, 2007

Dear Sir,

It is always hinduism and Caste! What about the caste system in the �Enlightened Educated Society�.
I am always surprised that the modern �Educated Individual� (EI for short) keeps harping on Rituals and Caste in the religion.

The EI considers it abhorring and �Feels� so much for the deprived. But suppose the same EI goes to a give a lecture at a place where only a three peice/coat is made compulsory to enter the hallowed precints. What does he do, he goes to the extent of even investing in one for a single night to be a part of this �Society�
The same EI feels it very comfortable where some places known as �Exclusive Clubs� and inside that a place known as a �Bar� , where people most times find it difficult to hold their physical needs under control, and what are they expected to wear� A Collared shirt, Pants, ( maybe the dhothi does not sufficiently cover the parts covered by a pant) and feet should be appropraitely covered� This means a Jibba/Kurta, a Dhoti, and a Chappal are not �wears� but something else!!

No EI would like to avoid such a place as he has to be part of the crowd and the �in society�.
For the EI this is not a casteless society but subscribing to certain norms.

Why single out a way of life and state that it has these flaws and leaves out people from this activity or that activity.
Just as a club has its norms and its bye laws every society carves out a way of life for it.
When one is not anathema why is the other considered so. Is it because the underlying feeling is that it is related to the next world where one catches up with the greatest person one wishes to meet�GOD! or is it anything else?

Caste in what ever form you may call it exists in every human being. So let us get down from our high horses and feel the earth for what it is.

Regards,
vck

***

3. B Shantanu, on October 9th, 2007

@ Patriot: Thanks for contributing to the discussion with your thought-provoking remarks (as always!).

Hurried response (due to time pressure):

1. I believe it would be wrong to consider Hinduism as an organised religion

2. Re. the various �ills� of Hinduism that you mention, none of them find religious sanction in the Vedas - which I believe come closest to being an authoritative treatise(s) on Hinduism.

I certainly do not think that there is any religious basis for any kind of discrimination within Hindusim - either gender-based or �caste� based. I know such practices exist - but it is wrong to say that religion demands that we discriminate against women and others.

117 Comments »

How many of us know the origin of the word “Caste”? I am afraid, perhaps not many.

Do we find Caste word in any Bharatiya bhasa (Indian languages), prior to the advent of British and Portuguese? NO.

Caste is not an Indian word. It is derived from Portuguese word “Casta”. When Portuguese mercinaries and missionaries came to India, they found a kind of social (actually functional) divisions among the native people. Since their society already have Casta system, they started using the word Casta for Hindus too. British, later, popularised it and finally made a Caste-based population census in 1931.

Greek ambassador to Bharat/India, who lived five years in Pataliputra (present day Patna) during Maurya period (3rd century BCE) mentioned several occupations (around 10) of the people. His writings contain no words as caste.

Does that mean, we had no social divisions among Bharatiya people? We had, they are based on socio-economic functions, and not by birth-based system.
What we had/have is Varna system. And varna is not caste. Varna is not birth-based system. Rishis/sages of Vedic times were not surname holder Brahmins like today. They were brahmans by guna and karma, e.g. Valmiki, Vedavyasa.

Read Bhagavad Gita and see what it says about varna. Krishna says, these four varnas (Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Sudra) are my creations based on guna (quality) and karma (actions). Nowhere it mentioned about birth-based system. It is impossible and impractical. If a Professor’s son become a criminal, does we call him Professor? If a dacoit’s son become a noble man and a saint/professor, do we call him dacoit?

And this divisions of society based on socio-economic fuctions exists in every society and it will remain. We have teachers, bankers, businessmen, cultivators, cleaners, contruction workers etc. All are performing their own actions and not bound by birth. They may move upwardly or downwardly. Smt Mayavati, Chief Minister of UP, is a ruler now. She is performing Kshatriya funtions, do we call her chammer? Does her guna and karma has anything to do with chamra (skin) or leather work?

What is important is the practice, practice what we preach. Those high priests here and in other medias vehemently criticise and oppose caste-system, most of them practice castism. They will be going to find a match/partner from same caste. So, lets practice and not merely criticise. By-birth castism will not go, unless we stoped practicing it; unless we accept, castism is racism and inhuman practice.

Dr Ambedkar said, “Castism is untouchability. Unless untouchability goes, castism will not go.” So, what we need is practice, practice and practice.

Comment by Bharat | October 9, 2007
Nice theory, VCK, but you did not answer the questions that I posed in my post.

In theory, caste can be anything …. the varnas, a way of life, whatever. In practice, in Modern India, it is a tool of discrimination and enslavement. Are you saying we should justify this as a way of life???? What about the other stuff? Shall we re-institute the practice of Sati, since that is also part of our glorious culture? How about not allowing anyone apart from Brahmins from getting educated? That should be very popular and take us back to the pinnacle of our glory.

And, what does a nose ring costing a job in London have to do with my original point? That two wrongs make a right? Then, the London guys have a long way to go …… after all, 2000 years of discrimination is not easy to catch up with.

I DO NOT care what the original intention behind castes was … I only care about how it is being practiced today. As they say, the road to HELL is paved with good intentions.

And, please do not try to sidetrack this post into a discussion on western vs Indian cultures or dhoti vs trousers or whatever.

Please read my original post and then come back to me on the merits of what I am saying and the state of our society today, not some fanciful construct of what Arjun said to Karna and how that is relevant to our caste system.

I will not answer any more off-topic posts from you.

What astounds me, though, is the difference in the quality/tenor of your comments in the “is india a hindu state” post and this one.

Comment by Patriot | October 9, 2007
Bharat,

The theory of the vocation based varnas as the basis for the caste system is well known ……. but is that the social system that exists today?

With hand on heart, can you truthfully say that a non birth-based system has existed for the last 500 years? 1000 years? 1500 years?

I think there is enough historical evidence to suggest that the vocation based varnas degenerated into a birth-based one very early in its life. And, that is not surprising when you think about it ….. if you are a Brahmin and control access to the scriptures, would you not want to perpetuate it? If you are a Kshatriya ruler of a kingdom, will you not want to pass on the kingdom to your blood son? Or would you rather hold a contest in your kingdom to check who is the most valorous one? It is human nature - when you have power, you want to perpetuate it. And, that is the problem of our caste system …. it is a tool of power, of subjugation.

In the current context, it is as you say …. what do you actually practice?

Comment by Patriot | October 9, 2007
I fully agree with Patriots view that discrimination of any kind, whether in the name of caste or way of life, is abominable. We must not even try to defend it. No purpose will be served by closing our eyes to facts. It is a fact that discrimination existed in India for a long time. It is also a fact that the intensity of discrimination has reduced today due to a number of reasons.

There is no denying that oppression and suffering have turned many away from the religion of their birth. But our society has undergone many positive changes in the twentieth century. Now our task is to let such reforms continue unhindered. For this to happen, we must own up our past mistakes and provide equal opportunities for all

However, in certain parts of India, we are witnessing the trend of reverse discrimination. Tamil Nadu is an example. There is wide spread discrimination against the Brahmins there. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The present generation must not be held responsible for the acts of a previous generation.

Patriot has made a reference to �Navya Shastra� in his Comment #5. I had never heard of such a movement. What a fantastic thing to happen. We do not know whether the movement is the result of real repentance or just motivated by self preservation. Whatever it is, we must all vow to support the beautiful idea. This is the way to carry forward the reforms. It is time to stop the blame game. We must acknowledge each other�s contributions, take responsibility and strive to build a nation that can truly be called �VASUDHA IVA KUDUMBAKAM�

Regards
Nandan

Comment by Nandan | October 9, 2007
Dear All,

The history of the caste system is too complex to be dismissed in sound-bites and short comments to a post (to get a sense of how complex, have a look at the linked article on “Caste, Varna and Jatis”)

We have a choice of dwelling on the past and studying history OR of making sure that the evil is eradicated.

I am clear about my own position: While I remain seriously interested in the origins of the caste system and how it morphed into what we see today, beyond a point, such a discussion becomes academic and/or unproductive.

Instead, let us look at what we have today and how can we make it better in the future.

A good beginning could be NavyaShastra - and I am certain there are lots of other good ideas out there.

Can we focus on them rather than on the finer nuances of caste system (although it is a worthy topic of academic research)?

Dhanyawaad.

Comment by B Shantanu | October 10, 2007
Dear Patriot,
Nobody is denying that varna system of yesterdays degenerated into a caste-fundamentalism today. We can see, what happened in Karnataka last few weeks is purely a caste-fundamentalism politics.

However, we can’t generalise the time period of degeneration, as it varies from region to region. Even today, there are places in Bharat where hardly anybody cares about caste and most don’t know what caste he/she belongs (e.g. Hindus of Asom). But again, politics there goes by other factors as ethnicity etc.

Caste is the main bottleneck for unity among Hindus, at least in a major way. And it seems, increasing day by day due to power-politics.

What is the way out? Its only through good education, education which builts characters and bring self-confidence. Those who reads Vedanta philosophy, I can say at least they understand the danger of caste system and try to reform themselves and others. Swami Vivekananda is an example before us. He relentlessly fought against caste system. While he was in Kerala, he found Kerala is the mad-house of castism.

I practice Vaidic/Vedic Sanatan Dharma or Hindu Dharma. To identify, I call myself a Hindu, infact a proud Hindu. As a national, I identify as Bharatiya. In day-to-day life, my guna-karma passes from one end to another, all the functions of varna system (whether divide into four or eight or hundreds). I am sudra at one time, vaisya at another, kshatriya at another and brahmin at another time and so on. They are like sometime I teach, sometime I shop, sometime I clean home, sometime do rajniti/politics and so on.

Vedanta is the answer to all problems. It sees divine in every creatures, every human beings. Only we need to realise that. Once realised, not only caste system, even religious barriers will disappear from mental state.

Comment by Bharat | October 10, 2007
Here is a perspective to consider…
As societies with philosophical underpinnings go, India is perhaps the only place on earth that has the caste concept has so visibly entrenched itself in its communities. And though it has also been pointed out by many that, such visible divisions exist in all societies outside of India, yet India alone has laboured under this seemingly unshakable hereditary based tradition. Why is that?

I suggest that a fundamental and pervasive quality in Indian society, that �all life is sacred�, has contributed much to the evolutionary twists and turns that has made caste into what it is today. All transactions of trade, commerce and nation building in India was guided by this overriding dictat of �ahimsa�. The practice of caste was a perfect accomodation of such ideal � not only did it allow for life to proceed in an orderly productive and efficient manner, it also provided the ultimate essentials of security (roti, kapada & mahkan) for all, in plentiful measure. It made India into the fabled land of �milk and honey�

As against this purely Indian idea (of ahimsa), societies outside of India held no such over-riding value. As is commonly known, the warring mentality of semitic socities � arabs and europeans (one could add to it, the mongols, the tartars, the huns, the aztecs and other assorted tribals of asia and africa) - settled all manner of governance and disputes with the �winner takes all� way of the beast, often after bitter and bloody battles. Men among the defeated were slaughtered, and the spoils � women, children and booty � were fair game for the victor.

What set to change the idyllic pace of life in India, was with the arrival of the barbarians at the gate. The Indian subcontinent was for large part of its history isolated by natural geography � the Himalayan mountain ranges and the vast oceans elsewhere. Although history records many incursions by hostiles into north India, these were by and large insufficient to impact the Indian society significantly.

The first major arrival into India of a very different class were the Muslims, whose were motivated purely by the promise of lucre and booty. Yet they were different because for the first time among aliens, they possessed a codified set of beliefs, the Islamic commandments, hostile and iconoclastic, and one that could be impressed against the, heretofore, sway of Hindu practices.

The gradual expansion of Islam into the subcontinent saw the beginning of a diminishing control the Hindus had over the productive output of their lands. The Muslim overlords were essentially �takers�; their vast kingdoms had to be serviced through the toil of Hindus (the �jizya� taxation) and frequent bouts of violence against local authority. Matters got even worse when 600 years on, the British through guile and cunning usurped dominion over the subcontinent, and proceeded to impose even more draconian forms of taxation while systematically destroying the very fabric of indigenous culture, education, health, agriculture and industry (all with a view of establishing British dominion in perpetuity.)

The effect of losing soverignity for over 800 years, must have created enormous social stresses in the Hindu social practices. Yet while consciously and subconsciously accomodation the spirit of �ahimsa�, the caste system that once upon a time was the engine of productivity and security, must necessarily have morphed into an unrecognisably grotesque caricature of what it now is. Desparate times bring forth desparate measures.

There are famous scietific studies on behaviour (Calhoun � �Population Density and Social Pathology�) that suggest that populations gradually deprived of resources tend to transit from organised social behavioural norms into chaos and anarchy, even with instances of cannabalism. When viewed against this background, some amazing patterns emerge. While Hindus may be castigated for their casteist practices, they have never been known to habitually indulge in the mindless orgies of slaughter at the slightest pretext of social, economic, political or religious discord, as even present day histories show non Hindu societies are capable of.

It is therefore my contention, that when India is able to raise its fortunes to meet minimum economic standards of living, the grievances of casteism will melt into the fogs of memory.

Comment by Othena | October 10, 2007
Indian societies have discriminations among Jathis which is a form of social problem. To conclude that this problem is only unique to Indians is a sign of ignorance. All societies whether progressive or not has discriminative practices among its clans, ethnic groups, linguistic groups, caste based groups, ideological groups, social groups, religious groups, racial groups, etc.

For instance, racial discriminations is very prominent and a critical problem in most Western societies even today if compared to Asian societies. What about discriminations against ethnic groups? Well it is prominent is all places.

What about Linguistic discrimination? It is a kwon fact that Linguistic chauvinism is very prominent in European countries. What about discrimination against Sanskrit in India?

What about discrimination on the basis of religion? The Muslims and Christians split the world into Believers vs. Non-Believers and this is sanctioned in their holy scriptures. Thus the need for conversions. It is the thought of intolerance that arise from the belief that their faith is superior from the other that makes them to seek to convert everyone to their brand of believe system. Isn’t this “religious racism/chauvinism”? How much violence has this from of “racism” or “chauvinism” has created in this world?

Today we can see how the Communist/Atheist or those subscribe to Marxism… abuses Hindus, are anti-Sanskrit and anti-Brahmins in general. They discriminate against and suppress Hindu interest, Sanskrit or Brahmins just because it does not serve their ideological motives. Isn’t this a from discrimination? Why do you think many Tamil Brahmins fled Tamil Nadu? Isn’t it because of discrimination and suppression of their rights? What about conflicting ideologies such as Secularism, Communism, Marxism, Capitalism, Socialism, Democracy, Consumerism etc.? Aren�t the proponents of these ideologies discriminates or against those who does not conform to these ideologies?

The list is unlimited…

My point of drawing these parallels is to make this very important point!!!

1. Racism is bad… but does that mean Race is a bad thing? Are we supposed to obliterate all Races? or shall we turn anti-Race?

2. Linguistic chauvinism is bad… but does that mean Language is a bad thing? Are we supposed to obliterate all Languages? or shall we turn anti-Language?

3. Religious chauvinism or conversions is bad… but does that mean religion is a bad thing? Are we supposed to obliterate all Religions? or shall we turn anti-Religion?

4. Jathi based discrimination is bad… but does that mean Jathi is a bad thing? Are we supposed to obliterate all Jathi? or shall we turn anti-Jathi?

5. Ideological imposition or discrimination is bad … but does that mean Ideology is a bad thing? Are we supposed to obliterate all Ideology? or shall we turn anti-Ideology? For instance anti-Secularism, anti-Marxism, anti-atheism, anti-Capitalism, anti-Democracy?

Christianity and Islam has caused the greatest amount of conflicts, destructions, holocausts and deaths in the world because of its castists religious propagation, but how is that no one — in spite of so much intolerance and discriminations that sprung from these scriptures are not propagating that these 2 religions should be obliterated to solve the world problem?

Thus, if one is really looking into resolving the Jathi based discrimination, anti-caste or anti-Jathi propaganda is not the solution. It is an age old propaganda initiated by the Christian missionaries to convert the pagans. Their motives and agenda is still ongoing in present India and they make sure that the caste issue is alive. Thus the motive behind their dominance in acquiring the Indian Medias.

It is no doubt that the discriminatory act of humans that causes these problems. Therefore the need of the hour is transformation of humans by inculcating Human Values and Dharmic thought in them. Therefore talk about the deterioration of human values and dharma in today’s societies irrespective of race, caste, gender, religion, language etc. Be a true reformer by transcending these superficial bounders. Those who are talking against caste are just playing politics to serve their own agenda and it will not lead anyone anywhere except it will bring more hatred and intolerance.

Just look around and see who is talking about deterioration of Human Values and Dharmic thought today? They are the true reformers! The others are just talking politics to serve their own hidden agendas which will end in hatred and intolerance.

Comment by Vishnu | October 10, 2007
Hollow words will not alleviate the sufferings of a hungry man. Food will. A dose of Vedanta will not reduce the pain of an ailing man. An ounce of medicine will. This is what we must understand.

Action has no substitute. We must act to reform and hasten to remove discrimination. This is where we must focus our attention.

Regards,
Nandan

Comment by Nandan | October 10, 2007
In US, there is no problem of food and medicine… but yet why there are so many social ills and sufferings?

In fact they should have become a ideal society by now if food and medicine is the only need.

You can give food to solve the hunger for a time being and you can give medicine to cure an illness temporarily… but it will not solve the problem!

Comment by Vishnu | October 10, 2007
Dear Vishnu:

There is a popular saying in Malayalam. Roughly translated it means, “Even if you beat your mother, there will be people who support you and those who criticize you. Some will say, ‘ Well done!. The old girl deserved it.’ There will be others who would say, ‘ You shoudn’t have done it. After all, she is your mother’. ”

People can go to any extent to justify their views and actions. But the question here is not winning an argument. Of what use is analysis and counter analysis if we lack the collective will to evolve and move forward?

Are we forever going to be talking about our glorius past and do nothing about the miserable present? Must we be so naive as to say that we will not address the problem until the causes have been conclusively determined?

Is it proper to say that Indians can go to dogs since even America is not an ideal society? What a logic!

Regards,
Nandan

Comment by Nandan | October 10, 2007
You draw logic without even understanding my point. Food and medicine just resolves temporal problems and it will not tackle the root problem. Don’t reduce a great and ancient nation like India to a mere food and medicine problem.

Why do you feel uncomfortable when someone talks about our glorious past? What made you to think that a person who talks about the glorious past is incapable of resolve the present problems? How does then being negative about the past help to resolve the present problems?

Can I ask, are we forever going to be talking negative about our past and do nothing about the miserable present?

You see… these is straw man’s argument!

Comment by Vishnu | October 10, 2007
RE: Vishnu,

Discrimination happens everywhere …. does that mean it is okay to justify it in India? The thing that amazes me is this: If you talk to any White in US or Europe (except the white supremacists), they will denounce racism and say it needs to be wiped out. Yes it exists, but it is bad. But, in this thread, I find people willing to justify casteism (under various pretexts)!!!!! So, are you a Caste Supremacist?

RE: Othena, you say
“While Hindus may be castigated for their casteist practices, they have never been known to habitually indulge in the mindless orgies of slaughter at the slightest pretext of social, economic, political or religious discord, as even present day histories show non Hindu societies are capable of.”

That was my whole point in the second post ….. that while the other groups/races/religions took out their violence obvertly and on other groups, the violence of hinduism/indians was subtle and internalised. We fed on our own people. So, yeah, we do not slaughter others, we just keep millions of people in slavery like conditions.

Comment by Patriot | October 10, 2007
RE: Othena, you said

“The effect of losing soverignity for over 800 years, must have created enormous social stresses in the Hindu social practices. Yet while consciously and subconsciously accomodation the spirit of �ahimsa�, the caste system that once upon a time was the engine of productivity and security, must necessarily have morphed into an unrecognisably grotesque caricature of what it now is. Desparate times bring forth desparate measures.”

Sure, blame everything on the invaders, the foreigners ….. Indira Gandhi would have been proud of you. Remember the “foreign hand”??!!

We have a previous poster demonstrating
(unwittingly) caste based discrimination in the Mahabharata….. when Arjuna refused to fight Karna, because he was a Charioteer’s SON ….. oho, I thought the birth-based caste system was a recent phenomenon?????? By profession, Karna was a Warrior, so why would Arjuna not fight him????? HA! So much for our glorious past. And, then there is the whole Parshurama episode of Karna being cursed by Parshurama because he had Kshatriya blood in him and had not revealed it to him …… so, please can we stop with this charade of birth-based caste being a recent phenomenon.

Comment by Patriot | October 10, 2007
Dear Sirs,
It is sad to note that it is we vs them. It is not a we vs. them it is process of integration that we are working for. It is of no use but only a cause for concern if one does not undestand the concept of dharma.
Unless one does understand the concept the person will think as the Christian Evangelist has taught him to think. Unless one understands the idea of a greater civilisation the underlying Christian Evangelical spirit will never die.
A person must be willing to understand, wishing to understand and wanting to understand, but if it a Christian Evangelist to whom one wants to address this issue of dharma shastra it will like trying to fill up a well with a broken pot or listening to music on a broken gramaphone which can never get to the next step.
If one understands the concept of Dharma, then one will understand the philosophy of Arjuna not fighting a charioteers son, but with a fundamental flawed thinking of anything goes including kickass the way of life! then it is a very difficult situation.
For the Evangelical educated person Bush will a peace monger as he went about smashing the head of Saddam as he could not find any WMD’s. I am reminded of a fable which I read during my childhood.
A tiger is drinking water upstream and a deer is drinking in the same stream down below. A Tiger and a deer, WOW!, the tiger turns to the deer and asks why are you muddying the stream?
This the type of Dharma that these Christian Evangelical educated individuals will understand and not that is being discussed here.
I should any way continue to add that as Shri. Bharat adds that unless we practise the understanding the Vedas these anomolies of caste will continue.
Unless the real Way of Life as prescribed by the Vedas is understood and practised the festering wound will continue.
Once the Vedic way of life is appreciated, then this wound will get healed as the Vedas do not prescribe caste in any form, including Jathis.
The concept of Varna has to be understood further if one has to place reliance on the Vedas. It very clearly stated that each type of service has its dharma and when one reaches the ultimate stage of acceptance as everything as the Consiousness then even the concept of dharma disappears.
The analysis of Shri.” Othena” was wonderful and saluations to you sir. I cannot say “Hats of to you as” as it is of foreign origin and I would like to stick as far as possible something from the ancients of this land!
Shri. “Vishnu” you are absolutely right, food and clothing will not solve the problems and as stated by you we have a duty to solve the current crisis and this can be done only if we go back to our moorings. As beautifully analysed by Shri “Othena”, unless we get back our pride and our self respect destroyed by the Talibans and the Christian Evangelicals, it will never happen.
It is time that we put our shoulders to the wheel and see that we get back the Vedic way of life in place and sort this cancer caused by the Talbanisation and Christian Evangelical Education of the past.
Regards,
vck

Comment by v.c.krishnan | October 10, 2007
Re: Patriot you said

* �That was my whole point in the second post �.. that while the other groups/races/religions took out their violence obvertly and on other groups, the violence of hinduism/indians was subtle and internalised. We fed on our own people. So, yeah, we do not slaughter others, we just keep millions of people in slavery like conditions.�

** You�ve gone off a tangent. My point is not as you suggest, rather it seeks to hypothesise (or expose) the effects arising from the conflict of fundamentally opposing forces … the impact of �himsa� on �ahimsa� � and the resultant dynamics on the �ahimsa� based society, wherin it retreats into a fear based insular outlook , as a means for self protection. That would explain the rigidification of caste constructs over time � a reactive mechanism for self preservation, as against its once open, flexible and productive character. If this point is understood, then of course the symptoms of such would be manifest as you cynically conclude ��we just keep millions of people in slavery�� But lets not misunderstand cause and effect.

* �Sure, blame everything on the invaders, the foreigners �.. Indira Gandhi would have been proud of you. Remember the �foreign hand�??!!�

** Are you so easily detracted, as to miss the wood for the trees? Does the clarification above help? And your harking to a passage from the Mahabharatha to bolster your argument is hardly helpful. That single episode can be interpreted in so many nuances eg. a righteous outlook of not seeking unfair advantage in skills; karmic implications of exploitation; compassion for the ignorant; upholding of dharma etc etc. So too with the Parsurama episodes. That you should choose to understand these epics from a jaundiced, casteist view point is only reflective of pent up bitterness and frustrations. Cutting the nose to spite the face is hardly recommended as a panacea for understanding aberrations in societal behaviour and rectifying it judiciously.

Comment by Othena | October 11, 2007
Patriot,

You said… “Discrimination happens everywhere �. does that mean it is okay to justify it in India?”

Did I justify discrimination anywhere in my post? Don’t try to twist and turn… it only shows you can’t discuss earnestly.

Then you said..

“If you talk to any White in US or Europe (except the white supremacists), they will denounce racism and say it needs to be wiped out. Yes it exists, but it is bad. But, in this thread, I find people willing to justify casteism (under various pretexts)!!!!! So, are you a Caste Supremacist?”

Again did I ever say anything in favor of caste based discriminations? I do not see anyone here justifying caste based discrimination too. But that does not mean we must be against at caste itself. Yes we will here that the Whites are against racism, but they are not against RACE period.

I gave few illustrations to make this point very clear, yet you are not able to comprehend.

Comment by Vishnu | October 11, 2007
A general note…

I do no see any justification when someone blames the Hindus for caste based discriminations. 1st of all understand that it has nothing to do with Hindu dharma.

For those who like to blame Hindus… think about this…

1. Why the caste based quota system is practiced today in India? Did Hindu scriptures asked for it?
2. If caste based discrimination is bad, then what is the need for Caste Based reservations? Isn’t it a state sponsored discrimination? If Hindus wants to do reverse-discrimination for what the Muslims and Christians did when they invaded this land… will it be justifiable?
3. isn�t the Caste Based reservations system have given Caste based discrimination a legal underpinning in education, jobs and etc?
4. Why the DMK government in Tamil Nadu which is against-Hindus in most aspects who supposed to champion the anti-caste discrimination is in favor of caste and religious based reservations?
5. What about the so called Seculars, Communists, etc. why are they in favor of caste based reservation too?

Do any Hindu organizations, Gurus, or Seers asked for it? Then why are people blaming the Hindus?

If anyone really cares and wants the caste based discrimination to end, then why nobody is asking the discriminative caste based reservation to be repelled? Why don’t we follow the merit system?

Those who keep harping on Hindus without even questioning the discriminative caste based reservation system are a just bunch of hypocrites. It only exposes their anti-Hindu attitude!

Comment by Vishnu | October 11, 2007
RE: Vishnu,

“I do no see any justification when someone blames the Hindus for caste based discriminations. 1st of all understand that it has nothing to do with Hindu dharma.”

Yeah, let us just blame the aliens from mars for the caste system

Comment by Patriot | October 11, 2007
Bharat, Othena, Vishnu, Nandan, vck and Patriot: Thanks for a very lively and engaging discussion.

***

@ Patriot: I feel Vishnu may have been referring to the true meaning of “Dharma” when he said, “1st of all understand that it has nothing to do with Hindu dharma.�

I do not want to split hairs here but “Dharma” is not religion. The closest equivalent word for religion is “Pantha” (and the adjacent word, “SampradAya”).

For an interesting analysis & interpretation of this term, pl. have a look at:

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/11/14/excerpts-from-word-as-a-weapon/

We need to be careful in choosing words (although I do understand what you mean).

I personally feel that the “caste” system is more rooted in socio-cultural mores than in religions texts - and that gives me hope that it is (more) a matter of social reform rather than religious (re)interpretation - which can be very hard.

Thanks all for contributing to the debate and I wll continue to watch this with great interest.

Comment by B Shantanu | October 11, 2007
RE: Vishnu, re your questions -

1. Why the caste based quota system is practiced today in India? Did Hindu scriptures asked for it?

This is so pathetic that it is laughable. This is a standard attempted escape clause by religious types when cornered …… Oh, my holy book did not say this. No scripture ever says go out and do evil. Yet men twist the scriptures to suit their needs and go out an do evil in the name of the scriptures. So, if you notice, I never blamed the vedas for the caste system. I said Hinduism (as it is practiced). And, your problem with that stand IS?

Why dont all the Brahmin Samaj’s in India come out and unequivocally condemn the caste system and throw open the gates of all the temples to all hindus? That, at least, would show intent, right?

2. If caste based discrimination is bad, then what is the need for Caste Based reservations? Isn�t it a state sponsored discrimination? If Hindus wants to do reverse-discrimination for what the Muslims and Christians did when they invaded this land� will it be justifiable?

LET ME SAY THIS UPFRONT WITHOUT AMBIGUITY - I THINK CASTE BASED RESERVATIONS WAS A VERY, VERY, VERY BAD IDEA. AND, I DO NOT SUPPORT IT.

I think the issue in 1947 was that affirmative action was needed to end centuries old discrimination, and the leaders fixed upon reservation. Which was a terrible thing because it just hardened caste lines, instead of mitigating them.

However, I would like to know from readers of the blog what THEY would have done in this case? I have my own ideas, which I will share later.

3. isn�t the Caste Based reservations system have given Caste based discrimination a legal underpinning in education, jobs and etc?

See above.

4. Why the DMK government in Tamil Nadu which is against-Hindus in most aspects who supposed to champion the anti-caste discrimination is in favor of caste and religious based reservations?

The TN govt has been the most aggressive with reservations …… is it because the terror of brahmins was the highest in this state pre-independence? (I remember reading something like that) Or is it because that the lower castes were proportionately significantly higher in TN? I dont know, Maybe some one from TN can educate us.

THERE ARE NO RELIGION BASED RESERVATIONS IN INDIA TODAY, NOR HAVE THEY EVER BEEN. Please do not lie and try to confuse the issue. (The recent AP reservation for muslims is before Supreme court, and the probability is very high that it will be thrown out)

5. What about the so called Seculars, Communists, etc. why are they in favor of caste based reservation too?

Can you say, vote bank politics? It is the same reason that politicians in mumbai do not allow our slums to be cleared. It is not a religious or social thing for them.

I hope that this attempt to confuse matters is now laid to rest. As I said before, two wrongs do not make a right.

I wonder if some of you folks are into holocaust denial as well?

Comment by Patriot | October 11, 2007
Vishnu said

“Again did I ever say anything in favor of caste based discriminations? I do not see anyone here justifying caste based discrimination too. But that does not mean we must be against at caste itself. Yes we will here that the Whites are against racism, but they are not against RACE period.”

Why not? Why should we not be against Caste and Race? What useful purpose to do they serve except to divide people? Why should they be markers for people and why should we not eliminate them completely except for the purpose of genetics research? Would you rather be known by your achievements or your race/caste/breed/zoology specimen?

Comment by Patriot | October 11, 2007
I have an anthropological/social theory about the use of caste/race in modern times -

The achievers break through the barriers imposed by caste/race/clan and want to be identified on their own merit and their own achievements. Their identity supersedes clan identity.

The non-achievers are the ones who cling to such clan identity, because they see themselves as less actualised, less powerful and less protected than the achievers. So, they run to the collective strength of their clans for power and protection.

Views?

Comment by Patriot | October 11, 2007
@ Patriot:

“I wonder if some of you folks are into holocaust denial as well?”

Somewhat below the belt, I think? Hope that was not the intention.

Comment by B Shantanu | October 11, 2007
RE: Shantanu,

” �I wonder if some of you folks are into holocaust denial as well?�

Somewhat below the belt, I think?”

Yes, probably.

But, read the posts above — all glorifying the caste system, trying to subvert the debate and move it into other channels, not a straight answer to any of my questions, and not a single word of condemnation for what the caste system has ACTUALLY DONE to people — wouldn’t that, at least, partially justify the barb?

Comment by Patriot | October 11, 2007
RE: Othena, you said:

“My point is not as you suggest, rather it seeks to hypothesise (or expose) the effects arising from the conflict of fundamentally opposing forces � the impact of �himsa� on �ahimsa� � and the resultant dynamics on the �ahimsa� based society, wherin it retreats into a fear based insular outlook , as a means for self protection”

My point is that your fundamental hypothesis is irreparably flawed. Ahimsa is not a hindu concept. It is a Buddhist and Jain concept, that was absorbed into Hinduism and made popular by Mahatma Gandhi. There is no historical evidence to suggest that Indian society was more or less violent than any other societies of its time. We did not venture out through the Khyber pass, and we were the victim of more powerful aggressors, that is all.

Please educate me if you think I am wrong.

Comment by Patriot | October 11, 2007
RE: Patriot, you said:

“Please educate me if you think I am wrong.”

Ahimsa is not some patented invention. It is a facet of the truth revealed to every seer and saint that has lived or is living. Read Pathanjali’s Ashtanga Yoga - it is the very first item under Yama.

And if you don’t think Hindu society has not been influenced by ahimsa because the Buddhist and Jains and Gandhi have a copyright on it, well God bless you.

Comment by Othena | October 11, 2007
Patriot, you said…

“Oh, my holy book did not say this. No scripture ever says go out and do evil.”

Are you sure no scriptures ever says go out and do evil? Have you ever read the Bible and Quran? Anyone who had read these scriptures will never dare to say this. Hope you will do more research before you make such statements.

you said…
So, if you notice, I never blamed the vedas for the caste system. I said Hinduism (as it is practiced). And, your problem with that stand IS?

First of all, what is your understanding about the term “Hinduism”? If you think of Hinduism to mean inclusive of all that is originated from India [Vedanta, dharma, its history, culture, social system, way of life, all margas (spiritual traditions), ayurveda, yoga, tantra, vedas, puranas, sastras, jyotisha, vastu, sculpture, music, dance, sanskrit, tamil, etc.] as it is synonymous to “India” then, it is true that it is part of Hindu social system. But if you do not see it this way, then it is improper to term it as Hindu and to be more precise, it is part of Indian social system. That is why; this social practice still exists among the Muslims, Sikhs and Christians. It is part of the Indian social practice.

To be more precise… it is not really a “caste system” as we had no such term before… it is called “Jathis”… which is a non-rigid social sub-group. We don’t call racial groups as “race system” even though it is more rigid then Jathis. The term “caste system” was pioneered by the Portuguese and then the British made it a rigid system when they started to catalog and institutionalize the Jathis. Today it is more rigid in a sense that it is endorsed by the state government legally for reservations.

Why dont all the Brahmin Samaj�s in India come out and unequivocally condemn the caste system and throw open the gates of all the temples to all hindus? That, at least, would show intent, right?

I guess you meant caste/jathi discrimination and not Jathi itself. If a jathi is discriminated from entering a temple then it is condemnable. I am seeing more and more Hindu organizations are doing this and it will create more awareness as time to come. Yes if you wish Brahmins to come out and show their intent… then go all out for it but if you turn anti-caste or anti-Brahmin then it will send a wrong message. Remember jathi based discrimination is not just a Brahmin vs. non-Brahmin issue, but it is prominent among all jathi groups.

your question on the caste based reservation system…
I would like to know from readers of the blog what THEY would have done in this case?

If there is some section from the society that needs to be aided or given priorities due to their poverty or illiteracy, then the criteria should be based on the poverty level and NOT JATHI or religion!

The TN govt has been the most aggressive with reservations �� is it because the terror of brahmins was the highest in this state pre-independence? (I remember reading something like that) Or is it because that the lower castes were proportionately significantly higher in TN? I don�t know, Maybe some one from TN can educate us.

How the 3% of the population terrorized the 97% of the populations? Any records that proves this as we see in the case of apartheid? How that is when the Muslim and the British ruled India, the Brahmins were so powerful? Any evidence to justify this or it is just a wishful propaganda?

THERE ARE NO RELIGION BASED RESERVATIONS IN INDIA TODAY, NOR HAVE THEY EVER BEEN. Please do not lie and try to confuse the issue. (The recent AP reservation for Muslims is before Supreme court, and the probability is very high that it will be thrown out)

Read some news and update yourself…

State Assembly passes Muslim reservation Bill
http://www.hindu.com/2005/10/06/stories/2005100622070100.htm

Tamil Nadu includes Muslim, Christian backward groups in quota
http://www.rxpgnews.com/education/Tamil-Nadu-includes-Muslim-Christian-backward-groups-in-quota_22548.shtml

Also read this blog..
The truth about christian/muslim reservation in Tamil Nadu
http://vichaarah.blogspot.com/2007/04/truth-about-christianmuslim-reservation.html

Well things are getting worst then expected! Is it because of Hindus????

Can you say, vote bank politics? It is the same reason that politicians in mumbai do not allow our slums to be cleared. It is not a religious or social thing for them.

Yes exactly. My point here is… it has nothing to do with Hinduism or its scriptures… but just politics.

Comment by Vishnu | October 12, 2007
@ Nandan: Thanks for the link at comment #6 (in the post above).

I had a quick look at them. The “New Light on Manu Smriti” is particularly interesting:

Comment by B Shantanu | October 12, 2007
Vishnu,

You have no credibility left with me. I will just answer this part and leave the rest, not worth spending my time to comment:

You say:
” State Assembly passes Muslim reservation Bill
http://www.hindu.com/2005/10/06/stories/2005100622070100.htm”

Yes, the AP state assembly passed such a bill. The Supreme Court struck it down as unconstitutional. The AP State assembly has since passed another bill saying 4% reservation for muslims, which is currently in the Supreme court. There is a very high probability that the Supreme Court will reject it again.

You say:
“Tamil Nadu includes Muslim, Christian backward groups in quota
http://www.rxpgnews.com/education/Tamil-Nadu-includes-Muslim-Christian-backward-group

If you actually READ the article, it is something proposed by the TN govt, once its current reservation case in the Supreme Court is resolved. This is PROPOSED, which may never see the light of the day and even if it does, it has to pass the scrutiny of our Supreme Court.

So, I assert again, TODAY, there is no religion based reservation in India. (And, I hope I never see it in India, either).

And, as far as your puerile comparison of 3% vs 97% goes, you only have to look at the erstwhile Soviet union to find out how 3% of the people can terrorise 97% of the population. OR, Burma, currently, for that matter.

If we want to deny something, we will just pick any strawman argument.

Comment by Patriot | October 12, 2007
Shantanu,

Why don’t you invite some people from the “backward classes” to actually comment on this issue. They will be able to give some real life examples against all the brilliant theory being expressed here by all the “upward class” types.

I am handicapped in rebutting many of the points here, as I am neither a victim of discrimination nor have benefitted from reservation.

If you you google for reservation based articles or blogs, you will find many really good commentators. I do not want to do it as this is really your blog.

Comment by Patriot | October 12, 2007
“Are you sure no scriptures ever says go out and do evil? Have you ever read the Bible and Quran? Anyone who had read these scriptures will never dare to say this. Hope you will do more research before you make such statements.”

Nice to spread the hatred around. Yeh, WE ARE THE GREATEST, our books are the greatest. Yeh!!!!! Lets just sh*t on all the other sects. YEH!!!!!!!

Comment by Patriot | October 12, 2007
Bharat (India) is facing danger from four evil forces: Islamist jihadi terrorism, Christian missionary terrorism, Leftist-naxalite-maoist terrorism and Brahmanical supremacy terrorism. Each one work in partnership with the others.

First three evil forces are well documented; the fourth are not documentated yet. Who are Brahmins, Who are the communists ,and Who are the communists rulers? Most of them are co-called Brahmins and few upper-caste Hindus. Who is ruling Bengal for the last 30 years? Jyoti Basu, a Kshatriya and then Buddhadeva Bhattacharya, a Brahmin. Bengal power are with Banerjees, Chatterjees, Gangolies, Bhattacharyas, etc (all are Brahmins). Similar patterns in Kerala and Tripura. Power never goes to lower-class (or caste) Hindus, who comprise majority of the population. Similar patterns in other parts, Sharmas, Goswamis, Trivedis, Pandeys, Patnaiks etc control the power structures.

When comes the issue of reservation for low-class (caste) Hindus, Brahmanic supremacist fundamentalists were on the forfront to oppose. Brahmanic Congress (headed by Brahmin Nehru clan) deceiving the poor Hindus since independence. What is the percent of so-called Brahmins in Bharat and what proportion of power they control? Most top Union cabinet posts are controlled by Brahmins and few other upper caste hindus.

Babu Jagjivan Ram was not allowed to become Prime Minister, as he is from low-caste and dark skin person. Similar treatment was given to Sitaram Kesari, humiliatd by the Nehru clan holders at time removing him from Congress President post. No Congress or communists will allow a low-class Hindu like Mayavati (a so-called Chammer) to become Prime Minister. BJP removed Uma Bharati (a low-class hindu) from the party, as they started feeling she is getting popular and powerful.

Who filed the �Ram does not exists� affidavit to the Supreme Court? Additional Solicitor General Subramanium and Law Minister Bharadwaj (both Brahmins) and christian Ambika Soni. ASI guys has become scapegoats.

Who are the chamchas of Nehru, Indira Khan-Gandhi, now Antonia Maino Khan-Gandhi clan led Congress? Most are Brahmins.

Only solution: Supremacists Brahmanism must be seperated from Sanatan Hindu Dharma and given a proportionate reservation to them. Be it 3% or 4%. They control heavily dis-proportinate power in the country. They never get tired to show their supremacy. Brahmin supremacists were responsible for crores of Hindus to leave their faith and become muslims and Buddhists (even today leaving). Results we have Islamists Bangladesh, Pakistan and over hundred millions Islamists in Bharat. And about 20 millions of low-class hindus became christians due to ill-treatments by the Brhmanic supremacists. If a muslim enter a mandir, even to pray, mandir get polluted and need cleaning by performing huge dramas. Recently Jagannath mandir in Puri through-out lakhs of ruppes of prasadam and cleaned the huge mandir complex, just because an American visited the mandir, whom they considered not a Hindu.

Followers of Sanatan Hindu Dharma need to create own puruhits/pujaris. Brahmin supremacists must be removed from all mandirs (except those which are their personal) All mandirs must be opened for all Hindus, even for non-Hindus who wish to pray or worship. Castism must go from the soil of Bharat and from Sanatan Dharma. Strict National law must be enacted to ban castism. Anyone practice castism is a racist and he/she must be punished under the national and international law.

Comment by Bharat | October 12, 2007
Reading all the denials and the justifications in this blog actually makes me revisit my position on reservations.

Maybe, Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar was actually right about his stated position - without hard reservation quotas written into the constitution, the downtrodden of India will never get justice.

If 60 years down the line, these are the attitudes and positions of the “elite”, I can well imagine how it was like in 1947.

Comment by Patriot | October 12, 2007
This debate is interesting and there are points on either sides. While I do agree the varna system was started not with discriminatory intentions, it has slowly morphed into a very rigid system as what we see today. The question is do we debate the scriptures and origins of caste or what it is now. I prefer to do the latter. I see caste as two different things.

One is bad which has propogated differences and hate and discrimination. But these differences are among all caste groups, and also among Muslims and Christians of current times. For instance there are christians of certain castes who prefer to marry within the caste even if they are hindus, rather than marry a christian from another caste. This is how deep rooted the identity of caste is within each person. And the differences arent just between upper and lower castes. In many places the clashes are between so called backward classes and schedule castes. We have seen so many such reports.

Why does this happen.

For one, everyone feels as an identity they need to feel superior to another person and hence they take it out on who they feel are inferior.

The second aspect is caste as an identity that has produced such a diverse range of traditions and customs, and life styles, not to mention knowledge systems. For instances each caste has its own marriage practices, praying, food, and the variedness and richness of these differences are huge. So if caste werent there perhaps such rich traditions would have disappeared.

So looking from these two perspectives - here is what I feel. Caste system as an identity is difficult to destroy specially since its so deeply entrenched in each and every one, people dont want to change. In addition, making everyone brahmins or making everyone follow same things is also not a solution. Its like wiping out the native american culture or so many cultures around the world in trying to improve their position. So much of knowledge passed over so many generations still lie in different families, both upper and lower castes. So what is the solution.

Differences are a part of life, cannot be removed, people always find differences. However that does not give a sanction to discriminate. Any discrimination in a public arena should be first be banned and made punishable (whether temples or public well or public road, anything outside the house). Education in schools should also include moral education. A westernised education would not be useful to help solve indian problems, we need to take good things from the culture of india as children relate to it easily and set the process in motion. For instance the story of Adi Shankara where he meets an untouchable and his disciples asks him to move. The person asks if they want the soul to be moved, the everlasting athman, or the body which goes back to the five elements? Adi Shankara immediately prostrates before the person knowing it was lord shiva himself. What this teaches kids is even lord shiva came down to teach people to respect everyone. Just saying everything is bad, wont teach children any good, but doing it the positive way, reinforcing positive thinking is essential.

While a person from lower castes should be made to feel they are no lesser than others, it is not just enough castigating others. We need to make them realize the importance for respect for others. Vyasa muni was a fisherman’s son, lot of azhvars and nayanmars of the south were from lower castes, the list is endless. Finally using caste as a political tool should be banned. As long as politicians keep exploiting in the name of caste and try to keep it alive, the discrimination and feeling of difference will only further harden.

Thanks

Comment by Vidhya | October 12, 2007
@ Patriot: I am directing this comment largely at you but it is neither an attempt at criticism nor meant to be a denial of several points you have made.

Please treat this as an effort at correcting some misconceptions.

But first of all let me give credit where it is due:

You say: �Why dont all the Brahmin Samaj�s in India come out and unequivocally condemn the caste system and throw open the gates of all the temples to all hindus? That, at least, would show intent, right?�

Excellent idea and eminently do-able. Will the Hindu leadership show the courage and the vision to do something like this? I do not know but I sincerely hope so.

You also say: �Why don�t you invite some people from the �backward classes� to actually comment on this issue. They will be able to give some real life examples�

Again, great idea and I am very open to it.

Unfortunately �backward classes� are also oppressors at times (I am referring to the horrific incident at Khairlanji (Kherlanji) so one needs to be careful here about drawing the line? (and I hope you now realise that the issue is far more complex than it appears at first glance).

On to some of your other remarks.

You talk about the �terror of Brahmins� in TN. I believe the reasons for anti-Brahmanism in Tamil Nadu are complex and not solely to do with caste-based discrimination. See for example, http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/05/01/periyar-against-brahminism-not-brahmins/

You ask: “Why should they be markers for people and why should we not eliminate them completely except for the purpose of genetics research?”

You are touching on the complex subject of �identity� here. I am neither a sociologist nor an anthropologist but the longing for an �identity� is universal across societies, races and people. And it is, I believe unrealistic to expect that to change in a short period of time.

We, as a society, will need to evolve to a different level from where we are today to make it happen.

And, I do not agree that �The non-achievers are the ones who cling to such clan identity, because they see themselves as less actualised, less powerful and less protected than the achievers� � It may be partly true but I do not think that we can generalize.

Also I hope you realize that caste-based discrimination is not a simple Brahmin vs. the rest issue.
It is far more complex with multiple oppressors and oppressed and to paint it as a Brahmin vs Dalit issue is false and not entirely supported by the current situation in India.

Finally, I like your optimism about religion-based reservation. I desperately hope you are proven right � but I am not optimistic.

Patriot, I sense some anger within you against the system but I am not able to put my finger on it. Are you from India or outside? The only reason for asking this is to understand whether you have had a first-hand experience of the �system� and the wrong(s) it can commit? Or whether your anger is because of something else?

I do not think any commentator here is even trying to justify the caste system or caste based discrimination but it does not help to distort (or ignore) history and forget the context while engaged in a discussion like this.

So while we must unequivocally condemn caste-based discrimination, to extend that to a blanket condemnation of �Hindu-ism� is probably unjustified, unwarranted and unhelpful.

As for what each one of use can do to reverse social practices like untouchability, at the very least, we can (i) decide never to practice it in our own lives and (ii) to actively work towards the eradication of such practices � by condemning them and highlighting that they are NOT part of our religion- but a shameful distortion.
***

Bharat and Vidhya : Both of you have made some great points in your detailed comments and they merit a serious response. Please give me some time�

***

@ Bharat: I do wish to point out though that in politics at least, democracy does appear to be finally succeeding in giving due representation to the non-Brahmins and non-Thakurs. Witness the rise of Mulayam Singh Yadav, Mayawati and of course Shri Lalu Yadav.

***

All,
Please do continue to share your ideas of what can be done to eradicate this evil system from our society.

***

Additional interesting links:

1] “Was there discrimination in education?” http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2007/08/30/stories/2007083050180800.htm

from which a brief excerpt:
“To believe that there is a single caste order to which every caste, from Brahman to untouchable, acquiesce ideologically, is a gross misreading of facts on the ground. The truth is that no caste, howsoever lowly placed it may be, accepts the reason for its degradation� (Interrogating Caste; pp1; Penguin Books, 2000).

The debate also does not take into account that backwardness is not a static phenomena but a dynamic one.”

2] �Without quota, every caste would be a forward caste” http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/24guest.htm from which

“All available historical evidence shows that almost none of the OBCs considered themselves to be backward, in any sense of the term, at least till the beginning of the 20th century.

Most of the rulers, both at the local as well as larger regional levels in different regions of India during 16-18th centuries, seem to have come from these OBCs.

Further, most of the professions that sustained the vibrant economy of India, which was considered a great agricultural and industrial nation till early 19th century, were peopled and managed mostly by these communities.”

3] “Not many know the Indian past he had discovered!” http://www.newindpress.com/column/News.asp?Topic=-97&Title=S.Gurumurthy&ID=IE620061115230938&nDate=&Sub=&Cat=&
from which:

�he (Dharampal) exploded the popularly held belief that most of those attending schools must have belonged to the upper castes particularly Brahmins and, again with reference to the British records, proved that the truth was the other way round.

During 1822-25 the share of the Brahmin students in the indigenous schools in Tamil-speaking areas accounted for 13 per cent in South Arcot to some 23 per cent in Madras while the backward castes accounted for 70 per cent in Salem and Tirunelveli and 84 per cent in South Arcot.

The situation was almost similar in Malayalam, Oriya and Kannada-speaking areas, with the backward castes dominating the schools in absolute numbers. Only in the Telugu-speaking areas the share of the Brahmins was higher and varied from 24 to 46 per cent.�

Thanks.

Comment by B Shantanu | October 13, 2007
Patriot, you said�
You have no credibility left with me. I will just answer this part and leave the rest, not worth spending my time to comment:

I find that you are engaging with a lot of accusations rather then presenting your points in a way that is sensible. Now your accusation is drifting towards personal level that is unfortunate.

Your comment on religious based reservations�
So, I assert again, TODAY, there is no religion based reservation in India. (And, I hope I never see it in India, either).

Over here I am not talking about hopes but talking about the current issues. It does not make any good by defending that religious based reservation is not implemented and so on� the gist of my point is, in today�s India — to even think, talk or propose about religious based reservation is already setting a wrong message and it is a dangerous trend. No where in the world I have heard about religious based reservation except in Islamic states.

And, as far as your puerile comparison of 3% vs 97% goes, you only have to look at the erstwhile Soviet union to find out how 3% of the people can terrorise 97% of the population. OR, Burma, currently, for that matter.

Why you are giving an example from another country to make parallels? If your accusation is valid, then it should speak for itself.

Nice to spread the hatred around. Yeh, WE ARE THE GREATEST, our books are the greatest. Yeh!!!!! Lets just sh*t on all the other sects. YEH!!!!!!!

This has nothing to do with hatred. The Bible and Quran, explicitly asks its adherents to go over and convert or destroy all heathens or kafirs and this view fundamental to these religions and that is why the conversion business is the fountainhead of their practices. When many teachings from these scriptures are spreading hatred and the adherents of these religions are also echoing the same thing all the time and they are not shy of this conviction, then why are you in a state of denial?

If you view it from a Hindu point of view, they are just expounding hatred, but for them it is their fundamental right and they do not deny it!

Let at least 30% of Christians or Muslims come all out and declare that, their scriptures does not say this, and they do not endorse such views, — I will immediately withdraw my statement.

Comment by Vishnu | October 13, 2007
check this out…

Evangelist agenda in practice-Secluding SC/ST Students in Govt. Schools

WAYANAD: A Hidden Evangelist campaign to convert Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST) is going on in a Government school here.

In Moolankavu Government School at Sultan Battery,school headmistress Sosamma Mathew an agent of Evangelist�s directed school students who belong to Scheduled Castes (SC) and Scheduled Tribes (ST) to wear uniforms of a different colour than the other students. Here SC/ST students wear forced to wear blue checked shirts and other children wear maroon checked uniforms!

This vicious campaign is to create a sense of segregation first among them and also to identify them for the vultures of Conversion. By creating this sense of seclusion, it will be handy for them to preach their divine love upon theses na�ve children.

Now the evangelist�s want to repeat their successful campaigns in Christian funded Missionary schools in Government schools as well.

Comment by Vishnu | October 16, 2007
This is a good example to show that the Hindu hating groups are the ones responsible to have the caste issue alive in India so that to serve their hidden agenda.

Comment by Vishnu | October 16, 2007
Over 90% of America’s churches remain segregated- American Academician

http://www.explore.rice.edu/explore/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=8229

Comment by Vishnu | October 16, 2007
Some of you may have also come across this “news” earlier this year:

“Now, Muslims refuse food cooked by Dalit”

Excerpt:

“…Dozens of Muslim students of a government-run Urdu school in a Bihar village have refused to take mid-day meals cooked by a Dalit woman.

“We will not touch the food. There is no question of taking food cooked by a woman belonging to the scheduled caste,” said Nurjahan Bano, an eight-year-old student of Amri Urdu middle school in Rohtas district…”

Source: 29 Jun 2007, 0127 hrs IST,IANS news-story

Comment by B Shantanu | October 16, 2007
Patriot: you say that Hinduism is the longest running discrimination system in the world. You also describe it as a cancer. Perhaps by extension you might agree with descriptions of it as being evil, morally corrupt and fundamentally unsound.

If a people accept evil, cancerous, morally corrupt practices then they must be evil, corrupt people. Therefore you have effectively labelled all Hindus as evil and corrupt. Would you describe your parents and ancestors and friends as such? If you cannot allocate that label to the majority of people you know, then that implies that not all Hindus are corrupt. Which may mean that they do not spend their days thinking of new ways to be nasty to people using the brutish caste system.

However, they follow questionable practices. We know these practices are questionable because we live in an enlightened age. One where people are free to do what they like, where they like. Or are we? Is the thing that you descibe as discrimination not really hierarchy? And that is something that has always existed. The form of hierarchy you desribe is banned in Indian law, but keeps living in people’s minds. The new castes are across the world, with new names: usually their nationality. So Americans and Brits are more important than Malaysians and Australians who are more important than Indians and Africans. Is that not discriminatory? But its legal, fully sanctioned and rarely questioned.

Hierarchy and discrimination have always existed. We can flagellate our forefathers for their sins, or we can try and understand that we are no better and no worse than most other people and we still don’t really know how to live good lives.

Comment by Rational | October 24, 2007
Shantanu,

Have been very busy and hence have not able to respond earlier. Apologies.

You say:
“Patriot, I sense some anger within you against the system but I am not able to put my finger on it. Are you from India or outside? The only reason for asking this is to understand whether you have had a first-hand experience of the �system� and the wrong(s) it can commit? Or whether your anger is because of something else?”

I am very much an Indian, a proud Indian but not a proud, BLIND Indian. I have lived here all my life and most people would consider me to be from the priviledged “class” of Indians. And, no, I have not been discriminated against by either caste or religon, probably because of the fact that I live in India’s most cosmopolitan city.

Yes, I do have a lot of anger at the social “system” and especially those who wish to continue to propagate an unjust system.

Why? Because I am a Patriot. Because I think if we can unleash the creativity and the potential of ALL our people, we will once again be the greatest nation on earth, without the need to back it up with arms.

Because I deplore the waste of our people, who are born and die in abject poverty because the “system” does not allow them to progress. For every Dalit IAS officer that gets talked about, there are 10,000 or probably 100,000 equally potentially capable persons that have been crushed by the system. Can you imagine the effect of 10,000 Dr Narendra Jadhav’s on our governance system?

Is this so hard to understand? Is it so hard to get over our regional/casteist/religious/lingual labels and say that every Indian has the inalienable right to grow to his/her full potential? But, I am too optimistic. Probably getting to the moon will be easier for Indians than to shed their parochial labels.

Rational, you say:
” Hierarchy and discrimination have always existed. We can flagellate our forefathers for their sins, or we can try and understand that we are no better and no worse than most other people and we still don�t really know how to live good lives. ”

This is one of the most incisive comments that I have read on this topic. You are right that discrimination has always existed. Does that mean that we should not do anything to prevent it or reduce it?

I am not flagellating our forefathers, but opening them up to a discussion on their social mores. Why should that be a taboo topic? How do you progress if you do not enquire? If you do not discuss? If you want to accept their customs blindly TODAY, that is your prerogative. But, I should have the liberty to question them and express my views as to why I think those customs are intolerable and intolerant.

RE: Majority hindus - the silent majority is never an active oppressor, but they are willing co-conspirators with those in power who run the system. So, even if you go along passively, you ARE tainted to that extent.

BUT, it is possible that many go along passively because they have not thought about the issues involved. THEREFORE, it is important to get them to think about what they are condoning and perpetuating. That is why we need to speak out against an oppressive system - then, maybe you get people to think about what they are doing and reform their actions.

“So Americans and Brits are more important than Malaysians and Australians who are more important than Indians and Africans. Is that not discriminatory? But its legal, fully sanctioned and rarely questioned.”

I am not really sure what you mean by this? I certainly do not think that any American or Brit is NATURALLY more important than me. And, legally sanctioned by whom? or What? And, I think the Chinese and the Indians are questioning this order in the economic fields, where “superiority” is measurable but I think you meant socially?

Anyway, I enjoyed reading your comment - thanks.

Comment by Patriot | November 3, 2007
Rational,

BTW, I think your use of the cancer analogy is flawed. I used it in the medical sense, that cancer is caused by the mutation of good cells into bad ones, that multiply and ultimately devour the host.

The caste system is similar - started off with good intentions but then mutated into an evil, that needs to be eradicated. If you do not treat it with drugs, radiation and surgery, ultimately it will devour the host.

Maybe, that IS the future of hinduism - to be eaten up by its internal cancer of the caste system.

Comment by Patriot | November 3, 2007
And, I must note this, in passing:

My contention in the original post was that the violence in Hinduism is internalised, while other religions project their violence externally.

People have debated the caste system threadbare, which is one of the symptoms of this violence, but no one has yet challenged my basic premise.

So, shall we take it as given that Hinduism is an equally violent religion and we should shed all claims to being a peaceful race???

Comment by Patriot | November 3, 2007
Patriot,

So, shall we take it as given that Hinduism is an equally violent religion and we should shed all claims to being a peaceful race???

Again a blind accusation on Hinduism when you had no guts to give a convincing answer to my post on how Hinduism is causing it when what we see in reality it is not the Hindus or Hinduism that is the cause of caste based discrimination.

Remember there has been many “Patriots” like you since a long time who bash Hinduism all the time for caste discrimination… but unfortunately they are the root cause of caste base and religious based social segregation and reservations that makes sure that these issues are always kept alive. They are just a bunch of unrealistic people.

Today the Tamil Nadu governance has already passed the religious based reservation and it is a reality… and what I see is it is as purely against Hindu interests wether it is caste based or religious based.

The real need of the hour is revival of DHARMIC based governance and education system in India.

Comment by Vishnu | November 4, 2007
Vishnu,

Guts????

I think we want logic and reason, hopefully some intelligence, not “guts”.

And, yes I can not be bothered to reply to you, as I have mentioned before. Your posts are too inane, besides-the-point and dogmatic for me to spend my time on it. I would rather watch paint dry.

Comment by Patriot | November 4, 2007
We can classify the religions of world in two categories -old pagan religions (Like Hinduism) and modern organized religions (Like Islam and Christianity)
Islam and Christianity are organized religions because they have one prophet, one holy book and believers of these religions wanted rest of the world to follow their set of beliefs and if they are following some other set of beliefs, they want other people to convert their religions and follow their beliefs only.
Hinduism is not a organized religion and nobody can tell the birth date of this religion,
First of all why we require religion– To make sure that humans behave like a social animals . Religions are required to make set of rules and make sure people follow that, In all communities people select their leaders and these leaders want people to follow set of rules so that we can run the human society and their should be no chaos. These leaders will formulate the set of rules like doing this is good and doing that is bad. Do good things - you will go to heaven or you will go to hell.
So as human civilization was in transition from hunting nomadic culture to settled farming culture, people started worshipping nature and other pagan gods and here ancient religions like of Greek gods and Hinduism started. Different set of people came to India over the period of time and added to this religion.
But Hinduism do not have and centralized figure. Dharma does not mean religion as Dharma also means duties and responsibilities. Hinduism is not a religion like Islam or Christianity, It is a culture, a way of life, we can call it Sanathan Dharma but cannot say religion as their is no equivalent word of Dharma in English language.
Various people settled in India and their way of life and customs mixed with India and form a part of Hinduism until organized religions like Christianity and Islam came here.
Hinduism includes everybody, Even if you do not believe in any God (Naastik) You can call yourself Hindu. But you cannot be Christian if you do not believe Jesus or for that matter you cannot be Muslim if you do not believe in Mohammed.
So Hinduism do not want people of other religions to convert to their religion as it is not a organized religion and acknowledges various paths to reach god that is why we have so many gods and these believers of organized religions make fun of Hinduism.
But this led to downfall of Hinduism as it never interested in other people take their religion so it was content with itself and whoever came from outside (foreign invaders)their beliefs and ideas added to Hinduism except Islam and Christianity as these people wanted the native people to completely forget their beliefs and follow their path.
Now came the question of Casteism in Hinduism. I do believe that casteism is nothing but racism as India is land of people of different races (lot of mixing of races over last of thousands of years), we are not one race like all white people of England so we always have ruling classes comprising of high castes and peasant classes and lot of middle castes and very lower castes. So Indian people got divided and we are not united and peasant classes never mind who rules them as they are ready to pay taxes to whomever rule them. That is why foreign invaders with less number of people able to conquer here as they have to fight only with so called ruling classes and common man will never interfere in their war, so Muslim invaders with very less army able to conquer India and later Britishers. Now since Muslims are organized they started converting people with their force with swords on head. Since Hinduism was not united as it cannot be due to lack of organization, major chunk of bengalis, kashmiris, Punjabis and Sindhis converted to Islam that is why we have Pakistan and Bangladesh around us.
So casteism is the result of different races where one set of people able to rule other set of people and term them as lower castes.
Now who says casteism does not exist in Organized religions - Islam and Christianity ?
On paper they do not talk of castes but a British white Christian can consider a black Kerala Christian as his equivalent? Can he marry his daughter to Kerala Christian?
A Arab Muslim will consider a Punjabi or Bengali Muslim his equivalent?
The fact that Pakistan and east Pakistan (Bangladesh) separated because Punjabi Muslims believed that they are superior then Bengali Muslims.
Is this not casteism?

Comment by shrinu | November 4, 2007
Patriot,

What I meant was you have no guts to face “logic and reason”. Well I do not like to engage in personal comments. If you think you are truthful then you should be able to answer rationally… and not dogmatically bash Hinduism…. without valid reason!

Comment by Vishnu | November 5, 2007
Whatever floats your boat, Vishnu!

Comment by Patriot | November 5, 2007
#1
NOTE: All excerpts are nested within either — or quotes

“Patriot” was not trying to discuss inhumane social practises but rather hurled accusations against Hinduism from the first. Therefore this and the immediately following posts of mine deal solely with these baiting accusations. They accuse Hinduism *uniquely* of the evils of a “caste” system, all while concealing the existence of the same phenomenon in many other places (which are discussed in #2 and onwards). He throws in some invasion-enslavement theory for good measure, which does not fit our Indian situation (or that of others discussed in #2 and #3), but it rather does fit the christian-islamic cases discussed in #4 and #5 and end of #3.

Says “Patriot”: “the polytheistic faith of our ancestors who settled in the indus valley region (wherever they came from, that is another debate!).”
Not the biblical Japhetic-Hametic story again - also known as the christian Aryan-Dravidian myth (AIT in India). But it’s baseless.

The IVC people have been shown to be related to the people in present day East Punjab and Gujarat as per archaeology, anthropology. What genetics says is an even greater slap in the face for the christian AIT myth. So “patriot” is again repeating fiction when his rolling pin kneeds out more of the usual christian propaganda: “Moreover, as invaders came and settled here, the original inhabitants accepted them into their gene pool, because the Invaders were militarily MORE POWERFUL.”

What invaders? He’s leapt from “settling invaders” to “suppressing original inhabitants” to “militant invaders who were more powerful than (the suppressees)”. Who are these invaders? (No quoting from Indian communist ‘historians’, thanks. They aren’t even good for a laugh anymore).
I�ve already posted scholars’ statements on the hypothetical nature of “Aryans” at http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/

Genetics shows that ancient *tribal* South Indian genes are there all throughout India’s gene pool and into Iran! A summary of the genetics stuff can be found in the long footnote (31) of page http://www.india-forum.com/articles/153/2/The-AIT-%3A-More-than-meets-the-eye while footnote (29) is on archaeology and (30) on anthropology.

Hindus have had enough of the racist myth which christianism imposed on us (the Japhetic-Hamitic story). It’s rather the same as the Semitic-Hamitic story which the christians imposed on the poor Rwandans. We’re familiar with the outcome of *that* terrorist tactic:
“Christian Churches and Genocide in Rwanda” paper by Timothy Longman, Vassar College, for a conference on Genocide. http://faculty.vassar.edu/tilongma/Church&Genocide.html - Section “Christianity and the Construction of Ethnicity” That’s the section that contains the striking parallels with the christian AIT. If anyone reads that part, they�ll find it’s interesting to note how both in Rwanda’s case and India’s case, christians of the colonial era were only able to explain the perplexing extant social situation and phenotypical variety by recourse to some desperate invasion fiction.

It was the christian colonials from Britain who destroyed the Indian school system and prevented people from being educated. Just like they burnt up Hindus’ books on Ayurveda - http://www.hinduwisdom.info/European_Imperialism.htm. Also at that link, it quotes from “The Case for India - By Will Durant Simon and Schuster, New York. 1930″ (Will Durant is a historian):
— When the British came there was, throughout India, a system of communal schools, managed by the village communities. The agents of the East India Company destroyed these village communities, and took steps to replace the schools; even today, after a century of effort to restore them, they stand at only 66% of their number a hundred years ago. Hence, the 93 % illiteracy of India. —

And as Dharampal has shown in his meticulously researched �The beautiful Tree�, it was the same christian British that thwarted a great many Hindu communities who had been getting excellent education prior to the uninvited christian colonial meddling/destruction. Some of Dharampal’s stuff can be found at: http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1068 (At the bottom, it also discusses the use of Samskritam.)
Lest we uniquely blame the British for this most christian habit of vandalism, we must recall that they were but following what their predecessors - the christians of Rome - did to the Ancient ‘pagan’ Roman education system: destroy it. http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2b.htm

Comment by Nemo | November 7, 2007
#2
As for caste, which “patriot” seeks to tie in with Hinduism - it is a phenomenon seen in many parts of the world. Not just many geographic regions of the world - but also communities: from tribal to more urban ones. Caste - the word with the exact connotations that “patriot” wants to use - has has hounded humanity in many otherwise disconnected places. “Patriot” didn’t know this or was he just hoping Hindus won’t know? After all, when one repeats hollow missionary slogans with clockwork regularity (even bringing in the missionary Japhetic-Hamitic invasion horror myth) as “patriot” has been parroting above, it reveals a character that banks on Hindus being ignorant.

Both (1) and (2) above are http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/wiah/ch9.htm - footnotes provided there. (Some symbols like ? corrected to “.)
(1) POLYNESIA and related:
— The world over, tribal populations observe various kinds of caste distinctions. Thus, concerning tribals on the Pacific islands: “In the Mariami group it was the common belief that only the nobles were endowed with an immortal soul, and a nobleman who married a girl of the people was punished with death. In Polynesia the commoners were looked upon by the nobility as a different species of beings. Hence in the higher ranks the marriage was concluded only with persons of corresponding positions; and if in Tahiti, a woman of [rank] chose an inferior person as a husband, the children he had by her were killed.”82 Among the natives of Fiji, too, “a strict hierarchy, a kind of caste system, regulates all of village life”.83 So, these Polynesian tribals had endogamous groups in a hierarchical relation (”nobility” and “commoners”). The relation between them was neither more egalitarian nor more flexible than that between Hindu castes, on the contrary: marriage outside the caste was not punished with mere expulsion, as happens among Brahmins, but with death. —

(2) CONGO:
A small note on the following excerpt. My previous post mentions Rwanda and provides a link which shows that it was the missionaries’ christian hypothesising/lying that created the myth of the “invading African tribes”. That same link discusses how missionaries had done the same to Rwanda’s bordering lands, mentioning Zaire. Zaire was the colonial name of Congo (DRC Congo). And thus we can surmise that the Congolese tribe mentioned in the quote below are now found innocent of having invaded their own land as the christian myths had previously accused them of (as it did Rwanda’s people).
— For another example, we may turn to Congo, where the Batwa or Pygmees coexist with the Baoto, who settled in their land about two thousand years ago: “From this violent clash resulted a modus vivendi which persists till today. The division of roles is contained in unwritten laws. While the Baoto live in the village centre, the Batwa live in the periphery (?) The Batwa used to serve as village guardsmen (?) All kinds of taboos colour the relations between the communities. Batwa and Baoto cannot use the same washing-place, Baoto don’t touch food prepared by Batwa, mixed marriages are absolutely prohibited. It has nothing to do with social justice, but these relations certainly are stable.”84 Unequal ranking, endogamy and untouchability: all the elements allegedly typical of Hindu society have sprung up in the heart of tribal Africa without any “Aryan” influence. —
Koenraad Elst then talks about India’s endogamous tribes (endogamy = exclusively marrying within their own community).

Comment by Nemo | November 7, 2007
#3 Caste elsewhere - continued:

Maybe “patriot” wants to limit himself to the European and Asian geography and plead that there, at least, Hinduism is the ‘great evil’?

(3) JAPAN. “Burakumin” is a rather recent term for a group of people initially called eta (meaning “abundant pollution”) and hinin (meaning “nonhuman”). Intermarriage with them was prohibited and is still highly avoided. Workplace discrimination continues.

Note the mentions of ‘Confucian’ and �Shinto� in the following.

- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2267/is_1_70/ai_102140954
— Burakumin at the end of history - history of social class in Japan - Social Research, Spring, 2003 by Ian Neary
Prologue
DURING the seventeenth century, Japan’s social order took shape in the form of a hereditary four-status order of–in descending socioethical rank–warrior-rulers (samurai), peasants, artisans, and merchants. There were restrictions on intermarriage, social interaction, and clothing. This was justified by reference to Confucian theory. The functions of the four groups were seen as symbiotic, such that together they would constitute a stable and virtuous society (Totman, 2000: 225).
…Pariah communities had developed in the late fifteenth and sixteenth centuries as leather workers (kawata) and as handlers of animal and human corpses. —
The above link says that although the Japanese government has taken considerable remedial action: “The government has, however, refused to make discrimination illegal.”

The above refers to Confucianism not Hinduism! In Japanese Shinto-Confucian society � which later also included Buddhist (christians now want to make Buddhism the fall-guy for the Burakumin situation, since Buddhism is still popular in Japan) - certain occupations were considered so impure by other Japanese, that they avoided interacting and intermarrying with their practitioners. Eventually it led to much discrimination. See also (5) in the next post.

- http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/burak.html
— Discrimination against these people came about because of Buddhist prohibitions against killing and Shinto concepts of pollution, along with governmental efforts at controlling the population. The people were originally discriminated against because they were butchers, leather workers, grave-diggers, tanners, executioners and, at least in some cases, entertainers.

From the book Japan: A Modern History, 2002:
“Fundamental Shinto beliefs equated goodness and godliness with purity and cleanliness, and they further held that impurities could cling to things and persons, making them evil or sinful…. But a person could become seriously contaminated by habitually killing animals or committing some hideous misdeed that ripped at the fabric of the community, such as engaging in incest or bestiality. Such persons, custom decreed, had to be cast out from the rest of society, condemned to wander from place to place, surviving as best they could by begging or by earning a few coins as itinerant singers, dancers, mimes, and acrobats.”

The “impurity” of these people was considered to be spreadable to other people (much as a disease is spread). The people were classified as eta (”pollution in abundance”), binin (”nonhuman”), or Eta (”leather workers”).
In addition, the “condition” was considered to be hereditary. The eta were not even allowed to leave the communities of their birth. —

- http://japanfocus.org/products/details/2075
— Japan�s Burakumin: An Introduction - Alastair McLaughlan
�Burakumin maggots�kill eta filth�burakumin have four legs�buraku people cause AIDS�� These examples of anti-buraku graffiti are not from Japan�s distant past, but vivid reminders from the 21st century that anti-buraku prejudice remains extant in some sectors of Japanese society.
… Sadly, this �leather connection� remains a link between today�s buraku and the spiritual pollution enforced upon the eta of the Tokugawa period (1600-1868).—

Comment by Nemo | November 7, 2007
#4 Next posts are about Caste practises in Christianism and Islam

(4) The religious equality of CHRISTIANISM and ISLAM: the Gypsies.
- http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies2.html
— Both Moslem and Christian religious preachers placed Gypsies outside normal society by treating them as outcasts and not letting them participate in church and religious functions even when they professed to be converted to the religion of that country. Those Gypsies who were sincere in their beliefs were forced to listen outside an open window of the church or mosque. —
- http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html discusses the christian race-based discrimination of Gypsies in Europe:
— To understand how European prejudice developed against Gypsies we must explore the European western mind in the medieval period. When Gypsies first appeared, Christianity had shaped the doctrine of war between light and dark and personified the white angels against the black devils. To the church the Gypsy culture was non-acceptable and their dark skin exemplified evil and inferiority. Hence in western Christian Europe the dark-skinned Gypsies became victims of prejudice as a result of this Christian doctrine. —

(5) GERMANY:
Germany in christian times! How can we twist the story and still blame Hinduism for this anyway?
Similar to Japan and India - certain occupations were regarded as impure/polluting - could this phenomenon actually be … a societal thing?????:
http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521027217
— Defiled Trades and Social Outcasts - Honor and Ritual Pollution in Early Modern Germany. By Kathy Stuart.
This book presents a social and cultural history of �dishonourable people� (unehrliche Leute), an outcast group in early modern Germany. Executioners, skinners, grave-diggers, shepherds, barber-surgeons, millers, linen-weavers, sow-gelders, latrine-cleaners, and bailiffs were among the �dishonourable� by virtue of their trades. This dishonour was either hereditary, often through several generations, or it arose from ritual pollution whereby honourable citizens could become dishonourable by coming into casual contact with members of the outcast group. The dishonourable milieu of the city of Augsburg from the sixteenth to the eighteenth centuries is reconstructed to show the extent to which dishonour determined the life-chances and self-identity of dishonourable people. The book then investigates how honourable estates interacted with dishonourable people, and how the pollution anxieties of early modern Germans structured social and political relations within honourable society. —

Comment by Nemo | November 7, 2007
#5
From the christian casta system in Germany (above) to elsewhere.
(6) http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata55.htm
The truly CHRISTIAN casta system in Latin America. As anyone can see, it is RACE

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