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	<title>Comments on: A fresh look at Reservations and Quotas &#8211; Part II</title>
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	<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/</link>
	<description>Dedicated to "Bharat" and "Dharma"</description>
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		<title>By: B Shantanu</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-213054</link>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/#comment-213054</guid>
		<description>Sudha: The reservation policy has already &quot;degenerated&quot; in India...This is a benefit that today is mostly cornered by the creamy layer - and there is a constant demand from various groups to extend this &quot;benefit&quot; to them (thus the Gujjar agitation from a few years back). Sad but few seem to care - fewer still have the courage to speak the truth about it..Instead we have an ever expanding quota regime - now including women&#039;s reservation in Parliament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sudha: The reservation policy has already &#8220;degenerated&#8221; in India&#8230;This is a benefit that today is mostly cornered by the creamy layer &#8211; and there is a constant demand from various groups to extend this &#8220;benefit&#8221; to them (thus the Gujjar agitation from a few years back). Sad but few seem to care &#8211; fewer still have the courage to speak the truth about it..Instead we have an ever expanding quota regime &#8211; now including women&#8217;s reservation in Parliament.</p>
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		<title>By: Sudhav</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211407</link>
		<dc:creator>Sudhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 21:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/#comment-211407</guid>
		<description>My personal opinion on this, partly based on the experience of &#039;positive discrimination&#039; in the UK is that reservation based on caste is illogical.  The aim is to educate to a basic minimum level for all, as you have said, and to facilitate the &#039;best brains&#039; to excel to help in the progress and development of the country.
I think reservation, including for women in parliament should be phased out.
Scholarships should be used more widely to promote excellence.Positive discimination could somehow be factored in, but no reservation. When does a rich dalit CM/MLA and his family get taken out of the reservation loop at the present?Probably never. Reservation would degenerate into nepotism or worse.
The nation is being sacrificed for the sake of caste or the family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My personal opinion on this, partly based on the experience of &#8216;positive discrimination&#8217; in the UK is that reservation based on caste is illogical.  The aim is to educate to a basic minimum level for all, as you have said, and to facilitate the &#8216;best brains&#8217; to excel to help in the progress and development of the country.<br />
I think reservation, including for women in parliament should be phased out.<br />
Scholarships should be used more widely to promote excellence.Positive discimination could somehow be factored in, but no reservation. When does a rich dalit CM/MLA and his family get taken out of the reservation loop at the present?Probably never. Reservation would degenerate into nepotism or worse.<br />
The nation is being sacrificed for the sake of caste or the family.</p>
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		<title>By: B Shantanu</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211176</link>
		<dc:creator>B Shantanu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/#comment-211176</guid>
		<description>Pl do read: http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/kerala-10-quota-to-poor-in-big-trouble/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pl do read: <a href="http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/kerala-10-quota-to-poor-in-big-trouble/" rel="nofollow">http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/kerala-10-quota-to-poor-in-big-trouble/</a></p>
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		<title>By: v.c. krishnan</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1791</link>
		<dc:creator>v.c. krishnan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/#comment-1791</guid>
		<description>Dear Sir,
I think after the debate that took place, immediately after the SC&#039;s verdict on reservations to OBC&#039;s, one thing was apparent; NO POLITICAL PARTY WANTED TO GET RID OF CASTE, THAY WANTED TO AGGRAVATE THE SITUATION!!
The resevations are not to fill in gaps of disrimination but to score brownie points. No politician was sincere in his statements and they wanted to perpetuate the caste system as each of them fell over each other to fight out the issue of &quot;THE CREAMY LAYER&quot;.
Nobody is interested in eliminating poverty and discrimination, they want to perpetuate it. Especially the Southern politicians.
A recent article in the 14th. April 2008, issue of the TOI Chennai issue an article on this very apropriately stted that the OBC&#039;s were more discriminatory than the Brahmins!!!
This goes to show the true colors of the white dhotied politicians.
The reservations are required to strengthen &quot;BHARAT&quot; by educating the really downtrodden and poor which will help them to understand the true colors of their saviours.
Regards,
vck</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Sir,<br />
I think after the debate that took place, immediately after the SC&#8217;s verdict on reservations to OBC&#8217;s, one thing was apparent; NO POLITICAL PARTY WANTED TO GET RID OF CASTE, THAY WANTED TO AGGRAVATE THE SITUATION!!<br />
The resevations are not to fill in gaps of disrimination but to score brownie points. No politician was sincere in his statements and they wanted to perpetuate the caste system as each of them fell over each other to fight out the issue of &#8220;THE CREAMY LAYER&#8221;.<br />
Nobody is interested in eliminating poverty and discrimination, they want to perpetuate it. Especially the Southern politicians.<br />
A recent article in the 14th. April 2008, issue of the TOI Chennai issue an article on this very apropriately stted that the OBC&#8217;s were more discriminatory than the Brahmins!!!<br />
This goes to show the true colors of the white dhotied politicians.<br />
The reservations are required to strengthen &#8220;BHARAT&#8221; by educating the really downtrodden and poor which will help them to understand the true colors of their saviours.<br />
Regards,<br />
vck</p>
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		<title>By: sriram</title>
		<link>http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1790</link>
		<dc:creator>sriram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 02:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/29/fresh-look-at-reservations-part-2/#comment-1790</guid>
		<description>The elephant in the room that I have hardly seen discussed is what if there are &quot;real&quot; differences in group distributions and the impact that findings in population genetics will have on this debate?  It is nice to hope that all of us are equal in ability, as individuals and groups but is this based on the facts?

Although present day Indians trace their ancestors through waves of migrations across millenia and there&#039;s been plenty of inter-marriage as groups moved across regions and even caste boundaries changed, the fact remains that there are thousands (as many as 30 to 50 thousand, according to Cavalli-Sforza) of endogamous groups (jatis or microraces) in India.   That is, these groups, in the time frame of (say) 1000 years, have almost exclusively married within their clan.   This fact, together with the effects of natural selection (e.g., famine, assured food supply to a certain person by virtue of his/her talents) may have made these groups diverge.

We have pretty good evidence (a recent paper by Cochran and Harpending)  that the highly intelligent Ashkenazi Jews may have, in fact, increased their intelligence over the past 1000 years due to such considerations (because they were banned from most work in european cities and discriminated against, they got into money lending a profession that made a lot of use of higher cognitive abilities.. and a Jew who was clever by random genetic variation was more likely to survive and produce children in these years when life was pretty nasty and short).

The surprising conclusion is that traits such as general cognitive ability aka intelligence can have accelerated selection (as opposed to the idea that these things take tens of thousands of years as in the case of skin color.. the white skin of europeans is a mutation that arose 7000 years ago)

Add to this that our current technological, knowledge based economy puts  a premium on general intelligence (verbal and mathematical ability), then these facts, taken together lead us to certain conclusions that people may not want to admit.  Namely, it is highly unlikely (actually mathematically impossible) that there wont be significant variation on traits like mean intelligence across the thousands of endogamous groups.  Thus the key form of discrimination (occuring over a thousand or more years) is probably marriage within clan.

Imagine the distribution of mean IQ (not individual IQ) across these thousands of groups (no one has bothered, as far as I know , to make some estimate.. but its not hard to do based on data that various govt agencies already have).  The difference in the mean difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10% (of groups) is very very likely to be at least a couple of standard deviations or more.  But the details of this distribution will have clear implications for policy making (such as identifying environmental causes for depressed intelligence like nutritional deficiencies  that may be affecting certain groups but not others). Its a mystery as to why our govt agencies who collate various statistics havent bothered to create something like this (one doesnt actually need to measure IQ, one could use a combination of various proxy measures).  It should not be more than a few months worth of data collection and analysis (if various agencies are forthcoming).  One likely conclusion would be that reservations at elite institutions is pointless and a waste of efforts.. its much more efficient to have reservations at non-elite institutions and earlier (primary education) via school vouchers etc as some NGOs are advocating. Another would be the isolation of environmental factors and relevant interventions  that could actually make a difference to certain groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The elephant in the room that I have hardly seen discussed is what if there are &#8220;real&#8221; differences in group distributions and the impact that findings in population genetics will have on this debate?  It is nice to hope that all of us are equal in ability, as individuals and groups but is this based on the facts?</p>
<p>Although present day Indians trace their ancestors through waves of migrations across millenia and there&#8217;s been plenty of inter-marriage as groups moved across regions and even caste boundaries changed, the fact remains that there are thousands (as many as 30 to 50 thousand, according to Cavalli-Sforza) of endogamous groups (jatis or microraces) in India.   That is, these groups, in the time frame of (say) 1000 years, have almost exclusively married within their clan.   This fact, together with the effects of natural selection (e.g., famine, assured food supply to a certain person by virtue of his/her talents) may have made these groups diverge.</p>
<p>We have pretty good evidence (a recent paper by Cochran and Harpending)  that the highly intelligent Ashkenazi Jews may have, in fact, increased their intelligence over the past 1000 years due to such considerations (because they were banned from most work in european cities and discriminated against, they got into money lending a profession that made a lot of use of higher cognitive abilities.. and a Jew who was clever by random genetic variation was more likely to survive and produce children in these years when life was pretty nasty and short).</p>
<p>The surprising conclusion is that traits such as general cognitive ability aka intelligence can have accelerated selection (as opposed to the idea that these things take tens of thousands of years as in the case of skin color.. the white skin of europeans is a mutation that arose 7000 years ago)</p>
<p>Add to this that our current technological, knowledge based economy puts  a premium on general intelligence (verbal and mathematical ability), then these facts, taken together lead us to certain conclusions that people may not want to admit.  Namely, it is highly unlikely (actually mathematically impossible) that there wont be significant variation on traits like mean intelligence across the thousands of endogamous groups.  Thus the key form of discrimination (occuring over a thousand or more years) is probably marriage within clan.</p>
<p>Imagine the distribution of mean IQ (not individual IQ) across these thousands of groups (no one has bothered, as far as I know , to make some estimate.. but its not hard to do based on data that various govt agencies already have).  The difference in the mean difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10% (of groups) is very very likely to be at least a couple of standard deviations or more.  But the details of this distribution will have clear implications for policy making (such as identifying environmental causes for depressed intelligence like nutritional deficiencies  that may be affecting certain groups but not others). Its a mystery as to why our govt agencies who collate various statistics havent bothered to create something like this (one doesnt actually need to measure IQ, one could use a combination of various proxy measures).  It should not be more than a few months worth of data collection and analysis (if various agencies are forthcoming).  One likely conclusion would be that reservations at elite institutions is pointless and a waste of efforts.. its much more efficient to have reservations at non-elite institutions and earlier (primary education) via school vouchers etc as some NGOs are advocating. Another would be the isolation of environmental factors and relevant interventions  that could actually make a difference to certain groups.</p>
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