We know its Pakistan but we hope its not!
Three days after the tragedy in Hyderabad, here is what our Hon. Ext Affairs Minister had to say*:
Pakistani missions in several other countries have been indulging in anti-India propaganda, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee told the Lok Sabha on Wednesday.
“The government is aware of Pakistan High Commissions spreading anti-India propaganda. Instances of these missions facilitating terrorists have also come to notice,” said Mukherjee.
The government was aware of international concerns about some areas and organisations in Pakistan providing sanctuaries to terrorists and encouraging cross-border activities, said Mukherjee.
He added that a joint anti-terror mechanism to identify and implement counter-terrorism initiatives and investigations has been put in place.
“It is the expectation of the government that the mechanism will be useful in implementing the assurance given by Pakistan to India on January 6, 2004. The Pakistan government had promised that it will not permit any territory under Pakistan’s control for terrorist activities,” said Mukherjee.
* From a Rediff story, dt. 29th Aug ‘07: “Pak missions involved in anti-India propaganda: Govt”
Surreal. What more can I say?
But - taking a cue from Sanjeev - here is what I think we ought to do (for a start):
1. Freeze relations with Pakistan
2. Make the world aware of the predicament in which we find ourselves and our suffering
3. Launch a campaign for Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state (also read this)
4. Stop all cultural contacts, trade relations, people-to-people contacts etc. No more visas and no more welcome for Pakistani artists.
This is a gut reaction - but surely it is time to do something more than just expect Pakistan to follow up on its assurances?
Comments, views and other ideas very welcome (pl. see comment moderation policy).
Jai Hind, Jai Bharat.
Shantanu, I agree with you.
It is high time. We need to do something. I liked your idea of launching a campaign and freezing relations.
All this days I was thinking, how can we stop this and teach them a lesson? but no clue as all power lies with stupid govt.
I think now its time for people to wake up and do something on their own, by not relying on govt., anymore. I mean same kind of agitation we have done in past for freedom of India. Now for freedom from terrorism and helping Kashmiri people to restore them on their land.
Also, the family involved in spreading terrorism and terrorist should be banned from voting. All priviledges sholud be taken away from them. I know I sound harsh but they are more worst than what we are thinking. They are beast.
Comment by Indian | August 31, 2007
A FINE ARTICLE
Comment by n mohan | September 1, 2007
Apropos of the measures you have suggested, I would like to add the following:
1. Define terrorism by law.
2. Form a special police force to deal with cases of terrorism. It must be under the Central Government. No interference from politicians or State Governments must be tolerated.
3. Treat religious injunctions provoking people to kill on par with incitement to murder.
4. Set up special courts to try terrorism related cases. Such courts must have similar powers as the High Courts. All appeals must be disposed of by Special Tribunals.
5. Make laws to mete out harsh sentences to terrorists within a short span of time.
6. Make laws to punish witnesses who turn hostile during trial.
7. Accept the fact that U.S. is the only superpower in the world. Make sure that the Americans strongly feel the need for a peaceful India. Signing the nuclear deal might be of help. Increasing foreign participation in India’s economic growth is another way.
I am sure many people will disagree with the above suggestions. But the need of the hour is optimistic pragmatism and not unrealistic idealism.
Comment by Nandan | September 1, 2007
Thanks Shantanu. Your taking up my suggestion to offer solutions appreciated.
In order to set the broader context, I’ve prepared a small chart at http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/options-india-pak.html
It is a preliminary chart. I’d appreciate your comments. However this analysis has confirmed to me that:
(a) Very few people have been advocating what appears from the chart to be the only viable long term solution - namely the reuniting of India and Pakistan. (I first wrote about this in 1998 in my book: “Becoming Rich and Powerful: A Primer for the Citizens of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh” at http://www.sanjeev.sabhlokcity.com/Bk/index.html)
(b) citizens of both countries have not done enough to overcome their mutual suspicion - they need to engage more
(c) citizens of both countries have not worked towards preaching liberalism and its message of tolerance, to prevent young folk from becoming terrorists.
(d) the governments have been hiding behind the bush and not working together to eliminate terrorist camps.
As a result everyone is talking of highly self-defensive and extreme solutions, which unfortunately are Guaranteed to increase the loss of lives. If what you suggest is implemented, the downward cycle to war is only a few steps away.
I shouldn’t talk too much about this issue now, or what the Indian government should do, as I am now technically only an observer, not being a citizen of India (only an overseas citizen).
But I’d hope that you, as a citizen leader, are able to directly engage with the Pakistan - and Indian, community and ask them: who gains from this, and can the citizens of the two countries agree to re-unite? The benefits of reuniting outweigh the benefits of remaining separate by 1 million to 1.
The human being below the surface is the same; the language is the same; so why should citizens of India not want to come together and live in perpetual harmony for ever? Of course there are the same tricky issues that led to the partition (re: representation), but the Indian democracy has by now set a role model for participation from all groups, and Pakistanis shouldn’t have concerns about representation any longer.
For me a role model of the good relationship that is possible between the two countries is a fantastic young couple (friends of mine - one Indian, one Pakistani) living in Melbourne, who got married last year. If Indians and Pakistanis are getting married even today, then surely the citizens of the two countries can work together to prevent terrorism from sprouting in the first place.
Anyway, these are just my thoughts.
Regards
Sanjeev
Comment by Sanjeev Sabhlok | September 2, 2007
Sanjeev,
Thanks for your thought-provoking comment. It is a fine idea – in theory. The problem is in the details and the tactics.
I hope you will agree that there can be no talk of “peace” unless Pakistan sincerely and genuinely stops its “moral” support to terrorists who target India and Indians.
One sided talk of peace can often be mistaken for appeasement – especially from a position in which we find ourselves in – wounded and restrained from responding with full force because of various compulsions – some real and some imagined.
Secondly I am not even sure that the desire for peace (re-unification will come much much later) is widespread amongst people of both countries – especially in Pakistan.
Certainly we – as Indians - have a role to play in this as far our public opinion (in India) is concerned.
But what of the large (I would say, a major) part of the Pakistani establishment which remain viscerally opposed to any “peace” with India and any attempt at resolving the impasse in Jammu & Kashmir since it seriously undermines their legitimacy and dominance of Pakistani politics (I am thinking of the military and the hard-core Islamists here)?
You will agree that Pakistan is far more Islamised than India is “Hindu-ised” – and therein lies the problem – either we attempt at making Pakistan more secular – thus consciously undermining the two-nation theory – or we find another way out of this feeling of “unfinished business” of partition.
I believe our relations with Pakistan are going to be a sticking point amidst all this talk of India shining - for a long point to come.
To resolve it will take bold and creative measures - perhaps even along the lines you have suggested – however one has to be careful in advocating approaches that make one’s position appear even weaker than what it already is.
India – Pakistan relations are currently weighted in “favour” of Pakistan – the world at large is ignorant or indifferent to Pakistan’s (all but official) sponsorship of terrorism against India.
And increasing people to people contacts and cultural relations add to this feeling of “normalcy” - even as hundreds get killed every few months in terrorist attacks.
Things are not normal – we should not make them look like they are.
Anyways, this is an emotional “first reaction” – perhaps when I sit down and read this again after a few hours, I might think differently (and I may sound more coherent!).
Thanks for contributing to the discussion. And I promise to go through your link later in the day.
Look forward to your response.
***
@ Indian, n mohan and Nandan: Thanks for your comments and suggestions. Please continue contributing to the discussion and do ask others to join – I think this is important topic that needs our serious attention.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 2, 2007
Shantanuji, your suggestions are the need of the hour & an effective action to tackle the Pakistani establishment for a while to come can be based on them but what is lacking is the political will. But these actions if initiated can bring back a greater degree of confidence & urge to face adversity back into the people at large. I wholly endorse them.
At the same time, Sanjeevji’s comment are indeed thought-provoking & require over a period of time careful consideration while your observations on them also sounds to me to be valid. Based on both of your suggestions in this regard-reunification a balanced policy-action plan must eventually be evolved. But it is refreshing to see that such discussions are happening.
Personally, I feel it is the ultimate destiny of India & Pakistan to be reunited into a greater & larger federation where each entity can co-exist seperately & yet as a part of a whole. How that will come about remains to be formulated & as you say terrorism, Pakistan’s sponsor of terrorism, a part of the military-mullah combine remain formidable opposition to any greater integration with India & as far as I can see this opposition shall intensify & continue for a a while now.
The other issue which needs careful watching is the possibility of Pakistan’s disintegration from within & a radical restructuring of its present composition.
Comment by Anirban | September 2, 2007
I would tend to disagree on point # 4:
“4. Stop all cultural contacts, trade relations, people-to-people contacts etc. No more visas and no more welcome for Pakistani artists.”
Art/Culture is the only way to create bonds between people transcending all the differences..
Also, passing the entire blame on Pakistan is an attempt to cover our own weaknesses in terms of not having a strong mechanism (govt, intellegence and security agencies) to fight terrorism…based on the lessons learned atleast.
Comment by Pragya | September 3, 2007
“3. Launch a campaign for Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state (also read this)”
Agreed. This is what has been referred to many times as a psy-war. The media is used for propaganda. This is something done through the intelligence agencies (CIA was accused of propaganda in the iraq war). This requires reforming the intelligence agencies and not using them to settle personal political scores!
“4. Stop all cultural contacts, trade relations, people-to-people contacts etc. No more visas and no more welcome for Pakistani artists.”
I have to agree with Pragya here. One should allow cultural and economic relations. I think it is the indians who stand to gain (both monetarily as well as may be some good will). We have a better business environment, more sophisticated industries and they offer a good market. And economic integration will mean that damage done to the indian economy will also have after-effects over there. However, India should refuse to establish any political contact unless they remove the terrorist establishment
And finally, there is a need for legal reform. POTA was just one such act to help in this regard which the congress duly nullified. This a good article that discusses the trade-offs involved in transforming India into a “hard” state against terrorism.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/213536.html
Comment by Prakash | September 3, 2007
*** Combined Comment ***
Doctor, Heal Thyself!
I think we should ponder a bit on this.
And, have we wondered why we have so many people within the country that are willing to take sides against us?
(oh, if you are wondering I was thinking about Punjab and Assam)
***
What can we do with Pakistan?
Can we go to war and settle the issue, once and for all? Given nuclear weapons on both sides, we have to accept the loss of Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore and maybe Ahmedabad (as a symbol). While we flatten everything else on the other side and turn it into a desert. Is this okay with everyone? Especially those arguing for ‘hard’ states? If so, we have a solution.
If not, then I do not think anything suggested above works, either. This may have (I don’t know, but may have) worked in the 80’s, it does not work now. This is because if WE ratchet up tensions against Pakistan (and China, in case anyone forgot), it will have a severe impact on our economy. And, in the bigger picture, I think the latter is more important than a couple of bombs (no matter how callous that may sound).
This is because this is the CURRENT ground reality:
Pakistan is caught between a rock and a very hard place and there is a very good chance that it may completely disintegrate. And, it is not in India’s interest for that to happen, however ironical it may sound. We can NOT afford to have a splinter Taliban state on our border, probably armed with nuclear weapons. Can you imagine that?
That is why it is in India’s interest to continue talking with Pakistan, expand trade and get them to ride on the coat tails of India’s economy. The more we can get them to interact with our pluralistic society and to depend on our economy for their growth, the better it will be for us.
And, if you read all the information that is available on the net, you will find that the Pakistan Army is now cracking down hard on the jehadis and logistics to the kashmiri groups have been cut substantially, if not fully. In fact, I read a press release of HuM the other day, calling all their members to leave Kashmir (PoK) as it was no longer safe for them to stay in Kashmir!
I think the Pakistan establishment now realises that their monster can hit back at them, too and they want nothing to do with it and are busy doing their best to cut it down. ISI’s grand strategy has failed miserably in Afghanistan (after years of success) and it is now unravelling in Kashmir, too. We have won the long fight and we should have the vision to realise this.
The bomb blasts may, however, continue sporadically because there are so many splinter cells in the country and making an ammonium nitrate bomb is not that difficult. If you notice RDX has stopped being the weapon of choice …. to me, it is indicative of ruptured supply lines. Until these sleeper cells are found and put permanently to sleep, I think we will always run the risk of a sporadic bomb blast. But, like the Israelis and like the English, we have to cope with that. There is no concept of 100% security, unless u maroon yourself in an island, surrounded by armed guards. Even then, an aircraft can probably get you. This is the new world, we have to live in it.
RE: Those talking about paying Pakistan back in the same coin, using our “intelligence” forces, may I remind you of the law of unintended consequences? The US funding the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, Pakistan helping the Taliban and other assorted militants, India funding and helping the LTTE, Sanjay Gandhi plucking Bhindranwale out of obscurity?
RE: those talking about a “hard” state vs a “soft” state, I don’t know what that really means. But, if it means a Khwaja Yunus in Mumbai or a Kauser Bibi in Gujarat, I want nothing to do with it. “Those who are willing to give up part of their freedom for security will get neither” (Paraphrased).
Cheers
Comment by Patriot | September 4, 2007
I am very surprised that people do not seem to care about China and the greater threat that it poses. It has now completely encircled India with bases in Burma, Sri Lanka and Pakistan. It is building a road through Tibet that will land at our doorstep. In Sikkim, across the Nathu-la pass, the Chinese have build a six lane highway. On the Indian side, we have a 1.5 lane potholed tar road. I guess we expect the movement of the Red Army to be stopped on our side of the pass!
The Maoist corridor now runs from Nepal to the south of Andhra Pradesh, and is making inroads into Tamil Nadu. Draw that on a map and tell me that it does not scare you. In Chattisgarh, jharkand, mah and ap, there are whole tracts of land that are now “No-Go” areas for the police. Each major maoist attack has killed upwards of 50 to 400 people. And, these are invariably the POLICE. They tote the latest assault rifles, anti-vehicle rockets and mines. The Central govt was using satellite mapping to track their movements, for the state forces to get them. Suddenly, the satellite mapping is no longer working …. by the time, the state forces arrive, the maoists are gone.
And, our traitors, the communist parties, prevent all out police action against them.
And, you are worried about Pakistan, a mere triviality? How naive.
Comment by Patriot | September 4, 2007
@ Patriot:
Thanks for contributing to the discussion. Quick response to your comments re. Pakistan.
Options like war should not be proposed or discussed lightly - especially when both the countries have nuclear weapons. I am not suggetsing that.
You mention that if war is not an option, “then I do not think anything suggested above works, either…This is because if WE ratchet up tensions against Pakistan (and China, in case anyone forgot), it will have a severe impact on our economy.”
Firstly I am not sure how freezing relations with Pakistan or making the world aware of our predicament and/or stopping cultural contacts & trade relations will impact our economy - Trade with Pakistan and FDI from/into Pakistan is a small fraction of our overall trade,exports and FDI - I do not have exact numbers to hand but I will be surprised if they are of an order where they affect our economy.
I agree with you that “We can NOT afford to have a splinter Taliban state on our border, probably armed with nuclear weapons.” But there has to be another, more sensible way of dealing with this than either all out war or disintegration of Pakistan - and I believe moderating and curatiling contacts may be one of those ways.
Separately, I also agree that putting the blame on Pakistan for every terrorist attack is actually an easy way to avoid the “hard question” - which is - as pointed out by you - “have we wondered why we have so many people within the country that are willing to take sides against us?” - that to me is a critical question and a hard one - and needs deeper thinking.
As for China, see one of my recent posts http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/08/12/chinas-long-march/ and the set of links at the bottom…
We ignore China at our own peril.
***
@ Sanjeev: I still owe a visit to the site link youhave provided.
***
@ Anirban, Pragya and Prakash: Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I will respond to them in more detail in a day or two.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 5, 2007
We are followers of Gandhigiri, Prithviraj Chawhan, Salman Khan & Snjay Datt
Keep pointing finger to others & ignore three pointing at you
Comment by pramod | September 5, 2007
RE: Shantanu,
I am only saying that half-way measures do not work. What do we get by trying to brand Pakistan a terrorist state? And, by whom? Only US has this propensity to brand states, and even the states they branded are still flourishing, thank you very much. My point is that the ill-effects of pushing Pakistan into a corner TODAY far outweigh the benefits for INDIA.
Maybe, we could have done this more successfully in the 80’s, but at that point in time we were nearly a client state of the Soviet Union. In which case,why would the USA and EU listen to us? And, we allowed Pakistan to continue with its nuclear programme, despite Israel offering to wipe out their reactors. All they wanted was to refuel in India, and we said NO. Can you beat the stupidity of the policymakers then?
Today, we need to engage Pakistan more rapidly and more completely to help them from becoming a failed state. I repeat again we can NOT afford a failed Pakistan on our border.
Because:
1. A quarter of their army may join the Taliban, and suddenly the Taliban will have a state, again
2. They have nukes ….. I would imagine that the US has a plan to destroy or take over the nukes if the Taliban takes over Pakistan, but is that a chance we can take?
3. They need our friendship on the western border so that they can concentrate on the north. This is important for India, too
4. Can you imagine the economic effect on India, if we have a Taliban state for a neighbour. It is not the direct trade with Pakistan that is important, but the chilling effect that it will have on investments from US and Europe
5. We can deal with an organised army and maybe insurgency in one state. But, given the size of India, do you want to deal with constant attacks in all the major states. The Taliban fighters do not care about their lives …. how do you deal with that? Look at Israel and the suicide bombings there. At that point, will you occupy Pakistan to get rid of the Taliban? And, are you ready to pay the price for that?
6. Now, that the jehadi gun has turned against the Pakistani Army and ISI and their defence establishment, they know that they have to take out the jehadis. Did you read about the attact in Rawalpindi?
We should just stay quiet now, and give Pakistan the breathing space that they need. It is in OUR interest to do so.
Just like we had our Bluestar, they have had their Lal Masjid. According to me, this is a turning point in Pakistan and Pakistan India relations. I think their state now realises all the fearful implications of their jehadi network, even if there are people within the establishment that are still aligned with the jehadis.
At this point in time, we have to come across as a mature state that has gotten over its Pakistan fixation. It sounds so whiny to constantly complain about Pakistan when our own law enforcement is so pathetic.
And, even L K Advani gets it now when he said that Jinnah was secular (he was, he just used religion to secure a political end, like so many before and after him).
Cheers
Comment by Patriot | September 11, 2007
The other point I am trying to make is that Pakistan is now largely irrelevant in our greater presence in Asia - our geopolitical presence and importance now spans from the Middle-east to the Caucasus to Australia. And, this importance will only grow along with our economy.
We would be stupid to shoot ourselves in the foot by focussing our and the world’s attention on an obssession with Pakistan. Pakistan realises this and it is trying its best to keep us at their level by asking for equal status at the NSG, etc. China also realises this and uses its fifth column in India to raise issues that tie up the government.
But, we have to move beyond this - we have to say that Pakistan is irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things (except becoming a failed state). Only we can make Pakistan relevant again by giving them a bigger than life status.
Comment by Patriot | September 11, 2007
pl read this article from timesof india:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ISI_should_be_roped_in_to_tackle_terror/articleshow/2379863.cms
It says that “the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) (should) be roped in to tackle the menace” of terrorism.
extract from article :-
—————————————
Describing Pakistan’s ISI as “a powerful pillar” of that country’s establishment, the expert said “it could be realistic enough to hold dialogue with the ISI and aim at a new set of confidence building measures and mutual cooperation.”
In a forthcoming book Transnational Terrorism, its editor Chintamani Mahapatra said New Delhi “should have woken up to the reality of the existence of a powerful pillar of Pakistan’s ruling establishment” like the ISI.
Mahapatra, a professor of international affairs in the Jawaharlal Nehru University here, recommended opening of a dialogue with the ISI for a “diplomatic solution of a quasi-military problem”.
At the meeting of the joint terror mechanism slated on October 22, India is likely to raise with Pakistan the issue of the recent Hyderabad blasts. Prior to this crucial conference, meetings on conventional and nuclear confidence building measures will be held on October 18 and 19 respectively.
—————————————
Comment by concened citizen | September 18, 2007
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/16arif.htm
See what Arif M. Khan said about terrorism.
Comment by Indian | September 16, 2008
Thanks Indian… I found this bit particularly worrying:
Here I am not going to make any allegations against any country but would like to refer to some public writings and statements of Pakistani columnists and senior officials. This is what an Islamabad-based freelance journalist, Dr Farrukh Saleem, has said in one of his columns:
This was written some 25 years back, but the situation has only worsened thereafter. Ahmad Salim and A H Nayyar, in their 140-page report on ‘The state of curriculum and textbooks in Pakistan’, say ‘the themes of jihad and shahadat (martyrdom), clearly distinguish the pre and post-1979 educational contents. There was no mention of these in the pre-Islamisation period curricula and textbooks, while the post-1979 curricula and textbooks openly eulogise jihad and shahadat and urge students to become mujahids (religious warriors) and martyrs.’
Now this is not about the books in a madrassa, but about the books that are prescribed in government schools for the children of five to 17 years of age.
Comment by B Shantanu | September 16, 2008