Comments on: Revising the “Aryan Invasion of India” Theory http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/ Dedicated to "Bharat" and "Dharma" Thu, 09 Feb 2012 17:24:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Rajiv Chandran http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-340684 Rajiv Chandran Fri, 03 Feb 2012 08:30:23 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-340684 Genetic evidence now more or less attests to sporadic and sustained migration of humans from india to not only larger eurasia but to east africa. There is compelling evidence that this was accompanied by migration of crop cultivation as well as livestock in its wake. Migrations could have taken place in various waves between the glaical maxima. Some of the evidence infers a human dispersal from the subcontiant almost 15000 bp. Evidence for origin of rice and millet cultivation, and thier intertwined relationship with animal husbandry and rearing of cows, buffalos, pigs etc as well as the migration of accompanying pests (rats) etc are wonderfully presented in this well researched piece by Dr P Priyadarshi http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/linguistic-evidence-for-indian-origin-of-indo-european-languages/ This work also seems to corroborate the traditional narrative of civilization forming in the east especially along the Ganges and moving further west. This what is indicated by Talageris work on the vedas (though he sticks to conventional linguistic timelines which Dr Narahari Achar rejects as contrary to astronomical observations in the Vedas themselves). If there is ever a possibility of reconciliation of linguistic timelines to much earlier times it would seem that Talageri's model for dispersion of IE might find reinforcement in what Dr Priyadarshi's says. After all its much easier to explain language movement as a function of history than the other way round. In light of all this I think the time has come to move beyond just refuting AIT or IE migration scenarios and to seriously start consider OIT or other hybrid theory with India as a locus to explain human prehistory, language dispersal and the origin, growth and movement of civilization. Genetic evidence now more or less attests to sporadic and sustained migration of humans from india to not only larger eurasia but to east africa. There is compelling evidence that this was accompanied by migration of crop cultivation as well as livestock in its wake. Migrations could have taken place in various waves between the glaical maxima. Some of the evidence infers a human dispersal from the subcontiant almost 15000 bp. Evidence for origin of rice and millet cultivation, and thier intertwined relationship with animal husbandry and rearing of cows, buffalos, pigs etc as well as the migration of accompanying pests (rats) etc are wonderfully presented in this well researched piece by Dr P Priyadarshi

http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/linguistic-evidence-for-indian-origin-of-indo-european-languages/

This work also seems to corroborate the traditional narrative of civilization forming in the east especially along the Ganges and moving further west. This what is indicated by Talageris work on the vedas (though he sticks to conventional linguistic timelines which Dr Narahari Achar rejects as contrary to astronomical observations in the Vedas themselves). If there is ever a possibility of reconciliation of linguistic timelines to much earlier times it would seem that Talageri’s model for dispersion of IE might find reinforcement in what Dr Priyadarshi’s says. After all its much easier to explain language movement as a function of history than the other way round.

In light of all this I think the time has come to move beyond just refuting AIT or IE migration scenarios and to seriously start consider OIT or other hybrid theory with India as a locus to explain human prehistory, language dispersal and the origin, growth and movement of civilization.

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-287234 B Shantanu Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:32:04 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-287234 Courtesy <a href="http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2011/12/indian-diversity-last-genetic-nail.html" rel="nofollow">Dr Kalyanaraman-ji</a>: <i>New research debunks aryan invasion theory by Kumar Chellappan Chennai Dec. 10, 2011 .. “We have conclusively proved that there never existed any aryans or dravidians in the indian sub continent. the aryan-dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, Vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA. ...Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “that was based on low resolution genetic markers. this time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. the decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained. However, Gnani Shankaran, noted dravidian thinker, said the time for writing the last word on dravidian philosophy has not yet come. “We have to find out the credentials of the authors of this research paper and their hidden agenda. In Tamil Nadu, the dravidian and aryan ties are inter-related. the dalits in our land are the descendents of the dravidian brahmins who were pushed to the lowest strata of society by the aryans,” shankaran said.</i> <a href="http://epaper.dnaindia.com/epapermain.aspx?edorsup=Main&queryed=9&querypage=8&boxid=30677354&parentid=156382&eddate=12/10/2011" rel="nofollow">Original source</a> Courtesy Dr Kalyanaraman-ji:
New research debunks aryan invasion theory by Kumar Chellappan
Chennai Dec. 10, 2011
..
“We have conclusively proved that there never existed any aryans or dravidians in the indian sub continent. the aryan-dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, Vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA.
…Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “that was based on low resolution genetic markers. this time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. the decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained.

However, Gnani Shankaran, noted dravidian thinker, said the time for writing the last word on dravidian philosophy has not yet come. “We have to find out the credentials of the authors of this research paper and their hidden agenda. In Tamil Nadu, the dravidian and aryan ties are inter-related. the dalits in our land are the descendents of the dravidian brahmins who were pushed to the lowest strata of society by the aryans,” shankaran said.

Original source

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-253725 B Shantanu Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:39:03 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-253725 Another data point to support the view that instead of an "invasion", there may actually have been a "migration" of population out of India. From <a href="http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-genographic-project-confirms-humans-migrated-out-of-africa-through-arabia-133052238.html" rel="nofollow">The Genographic Project Confirms Humans Migrated Out of Africa Through Arabia</a>: <i>By looking at similarities in patterns of DNA recombination that have been passed on and in disparate populations, Genographic scientists confirm that African populations are the most diverse on Earth, and that the diversity of lineages outside of Africa is a subset of that found on the continent. The divergence of a common genetic history between populations showed that Eurasian groups were more similar to populations from southern India, than they were to those in Africa. This supports a southern route of migration from Africa via the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait in Arabia before any movement heading north, and suggests a special role for south Asia in the "out of Africa" expansion of modern humans. Ajay Royyuru, senior manager at IBM's Computational Biology Center, said: "Over the past six years, we've had the opportunity to gather and analyze genetic data around the world at a scale and level of detail that has never been done before. When we started, our goal was to bring science expeditions into the modern era to further a deeper understanding of human roots and diversity. With evidence that the genetic diversity in southern India is closer to Africa than that of Europe, this suggests that other fields of research such as archaeology and anthropology should look for additional evidence on the migration route of early humans to further explore this theory."</i> Another data point to support the view that instead of an “invasion”, there may actually have been a “migration” of population out of India.
From The Genographic Project Confirms Humans Migrated Out of Africa Through Arabia:
By looking at similarities in patterns of DNA recombination that have been passed on and in disparate populations, Genographic scientists confirm that African populations are the most diverse on Earth, and that the diversity of lineages outside of Africa is a subset of that found on the continent. The divergence of a common genetic history between populations showed that Eurasian groups were more similar to populations from southern India, than they were to those in Africa. This supports a southern route of migration from Africa via the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait in Arabia before any movement heading north, and suggests a special role for south Asia in the “out of Africa” expansion of modern humans.

Ajay Royyuru, senior manager at IBM’s Computational Biology Center, said: “Over the past six years, we’ve had the opportunity to gather and analyze genetic data around the world at a scale and level of detail that has never been done before. When we started, our goal was to bring science expeditions into the modern era to further a deeper understanding of human roots and diversity. With evidence that the genetic diversity in southern India is closer to Africa than that of Europe, this suggests that other fields of research such as archaeology and anthropology should look for additional evidence on the migration route of early humans to further explore this theory.”

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-252427 B Shantanu Sun, 30 Oct 2011 19:09:20 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-252427 More research debunking the "Invasion Theory" and assertions by Witzel et al: http://www.scribd.com/doc/70907951/Witzel-s-Claims-Found-Wrong on Witzel's claims found wrong and http://www.scribd.com/doc/68019262/Understanding-Reich-Et-Al-2009 on the work of Reich etc. Both the articles are by Sh Premendra Priyadarshi More research debunking the “Invasion Theory” and assertions by Witzel et al:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/70907951/Witzel-s-Claims-Found-Wrong on Witzel’s claims found wrong and

http://www.scribd.com/doc/68019262/Understanding-Reich-Et-Al-2009 on the work of Reich etc.

Both the articles are by Sh Premendra Priyadarshi

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-209980 B Shantanu Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:33:46 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-209980 From <a href="http://sowingseedsofthought.blogspot.com/2011/08/questions-pro-aryan-invasion-theorist.html" rel="nofollow">Questions pro Aryan Invasion Theorist never answer!</a>, some excerpts: <i>..The purpose of this post is to put the ball on the other side of court starting with a few comments and questions. 1. If the Aryan invasion happened around 1500 BC starting from central Asia, one group moved West i.e. towards Europe and the other group south finally into India then what evidence is there of the group which went West and populated Europe? 2. If for a moment we believe that there was a migration of a body of people from central Asia, looking at human evolution and early migration patterns most communities settled around perennial sources of water in tropical or sub tropical areas where the sunshine and water is abundant and weather moderate. One would wonder why would anyone travel west into heavily wooded areas affording less pastures for their grazing animals and extreme cold weather for majority of the year allowing very small window for growing crops. If we look at recent history, Mongols the masters of the steppes only went where their horses could get grazing pastures and avoided heavily wooded areas. If nomadic horse riding Aryan herdsmen were anything like the nomadic Mongol herdsmen then they would probably do the same more so if they were chariot drivers. So my point being that even if there was a migration which is highly unlikely there was no migration west thus Europe never received any people from central Asian at that point in time. So Europeans should stop associating themselves with Aryans or any such race. 3. Has there been any archeological evidence of chariots from Bronze Age or from the period corresponding to Aryan invasion unearthed in Europe? 4. With the last Ice Age in the northern hemisphere early human population would naturally gravitate towards warmer climes, i.e. the Middle East and India. At the end of the Ice Age approximately 10,000 years BC with more lands available for occupation in the north precipitated by population pressure on existing land people would have been pushed northwards which probably explains why a lot of European languages have similar words or sounds to Sanskrit and not because of migration the other way around. 5. If the Vedas were created by the Aryans decidedly in an oral tradition then where are the traces howsoever faint of the Vedas in western civilisation. Has this proof been provided by the other side? 6. In Bronze Age or later age settlements unearthed in Europe has there been any discovery of the fire altar as per the Vedic tradition. Please bear in mind that the Vedic fire altar is a mathematically precise construction with each brick shaped on precise mathematical calculations? 7. If the primary Gods of the Aryans were Indra, Varuna and others, coincidence of similar Gods in Norse or Germanic mythology notwithstanding has there been any direct references to these Gods by same name in Europe? 8. What would inspire continental dwellers to have a name for the God of Sea, Varuna as they live thousands of miles away from the sea? 9. Lack of horse in Indian sites seems to have been a major point for the invasion theorist, which was proved to be patently false as horse remain have been found all over India since the Pleistocene, approximately 2.5 million years from the current era. Has the other side provided presence of horse in Europe for the period we are discussing? How come Roman and Greek records written starting 8th century BC i.e. 800 years before Christ and Roman war records written starting 5th century BC i.e. 500 years before Christ record battle engagements with northern barbarians i.e. present day Switzerland and Germany etc on foot. Even much after towards the day of the Roman Empire the northern tribes always fought on foot. Popular movies depict northern barbarians to be dressed in animal fur fighting on foot. So where is the evidence of horse in Europe during this period. This brings us to recorded history of travellers of antiquity. One such travelogue which has survived the ravages of time is the Indika by Megasthenes which became a reference guide even to later day travellers such as Arrian and Strabo. .. In his description of the people of India he clearly states that they are tall but lightly built (lean) dark skinned with black long hair which they tie in a bun on top of their head and wear turbans with twisted cloth. All men have beards and shaving is not known among the Indians. Nowhere in his entire narration has he alluded to fair skinned Indians either in the North west, North or in the South lording over dark skinned people. .. This description of India goes counter to the AIT theory of large, blue eyed, blonde haired white skinned Aryans lording over dark skinned natives. The description of the people of India by Megasthenes is around 1250 years after the supposed arrival of the Aryans i.e. 1500 BC and given that in the intervening period there was some intermingling of the people causing some of these racial attributes to be diluted but at any rate fair skinned people should have been present in some numbers and complete absence of any such mention in the text is a clear indicator that no such fair skinned invasion or migration of Aryans occurred. Thus we should allow the pro Aryan invasion theorist to prove the Aryan invasion of Europe conclusively first rather than prove the invasion of India through retrofitting evidence and sometimes concocted ones.</i> From Questions pro Aryan Invasion Theorist never answer!, some excerpts:

..The purpose of this post is to put the ball on the other side of court starting with a few comments and questions.

1. If the Aryan invasion happened around 1500 BC starting from central Asia, one group moved West i.e. towards Europe and the other group south finally into India then what evidence is there of the group which went West and populated Europe?

2. If for a moment we believe that there was a migration of a body of people from central Asia, looking at human evolution and early migration patterns most communities settled around perennial sources of water in tropical or sub tropical areas where the sunshine and water is abundant and weather moderate. One would wonder why would anyone travel west into heavily wooded areas affording less pastures for their grazing animals and extreme cold weather for majority of the year allowing very small window for growing crops. If we look at recent history, Mongols the masters of the steppes only went where their horses could get grazing pastures and avoided heavily wooded areas. If nomadic horse riding Aryan herdsmen were anything like the nomadic Mongol herdsmen then they would probably do the same more so if they were chariot drivers. So my point being that even if there was a migration which is highly unlikely there was no migration west thus Europe never received any people from central Asian at that point in time. So Europeans should stop associating themselves with Aryans or any such race.

3. Has there been any archeological evidence of chariots from Bronze Age or from the period corresponding to Aryan invasion unearthed in Europe?

4. With the last Ice Age in the northern hemisphere early human population would naturally gravitate towards warmer climes, i.e. the Middle East and India. At the end of the Ice Age approximately 10,000 years BC with more lands available for occupation in the north precipitated by population pressure on existing land people would have been pushed northwards which probably explains why a lot of European languages have similar words or sounds to Sanskrit and not because of migration the other way around.

5. If the Vedas were created by the Aryans decidedly in an oral tradition then where are the traces howsoever faint of the Vedas in western civilisation. Has this proof been provided by the other side?

6. In Bronze Age or later age settlements unearthed in Europe has there been any discovery of the fire altar as per the Vedic tradition. Please bear in mind that the Vedic fire altar is a mathematically precise construction with each brick shaped on precise mathematical calculations?

7. If the primary Gods of the Aryans were Indra, Varuna and others, coincidence of similar Gods in Norse or Germanic mythology notwithstanding has there been any direct references to these Gods by same name in Europe?

8. What would inspire continental dwellers to have a name for the God of Sea, Varuna as they live thousands of miles away from the sea?

9. Lack of horse in Indian sites seems to have been a major point for the invasion theorist, which was proved to be patently false as horse remain have been found all over India since the Pleistocene, approximately 2.5 million years from the current era. Has the other side provided presence of horse in Europe for the period we are discussing? How come Roman and Greek records written starting 8th century BC i.e. 800 years before Christ and Roman war records written starting 5th century BC i.e. 500 years before Christ record battle engagements with northern barbarians i.e. present day Switzerland and Germany etc on foot. Even much after towards the day of the Roman Empire the northern tribes always fought on foot. Popular movies depict northern barbarians to be dressed in animal fur fighting on foot. So where is the evidence of horse in Europe during this period.

This brings us to recorded history of travellers of antiquity. One such travelogue which has survived the ravages of time is the Indika by Megasthenes which became a reference guide even to later day travellers such as Arrian and Strabo.
..
In his description of the people of India he clearly states that they are tall but lightly built (lean) dark skinned with black long hair which they tie in a bun on top of their head and wear turbans with twisted cloth. All men have beards and shaving is not known among the Indians. Nowhere in his entire narration has he alluded to fair skinned Indians either in the North west, North or in the South lording over dark skinned people.
..
This description of India goes counter to the AIT theory of large, blue eyed, blonde haired white skinned Aryans lording over dark skinned natives. The description of the people of India by Megasthenes is around 1250 years after the supposed arrival of the Aryans i.e. 1500 BC and given that in the intervening period there was some intermingling of the people causing some of these racial attributes to be diluted but at any rate fair skinned people should have been present in some numbers and complete absence of any such mention in the text is a clear indicator that no such fair skinned invasion or migration of Aryans occurred.

Thus we should allow the pro Aryan invasion theorist to prove the Aryan invasion of Europe conclusively first rather than prove the invasion of India through retrofitting evidence and sometimes concocted ones.

]]>