Comments on: Revising the “Aryan Invasion of India” Theory http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/ Dedicated to "Bharat" and "Dharma" Tue, 22 May 2012 07:11:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Prashant http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-415735 Prashant Tue, 08 May 2012 10:17:33 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-415735 Hi all, Interesting debate. I am feeling sorry for myself for being ignorant about this for so long. There are few points I want to make 1 An idiot had argued that why we are obsessed about something which happened about 5000 years back? WoW! I think we are obsessed about it in the same way as the Brits were about it. They wanted to believe they were superior and now we want to tell the whole world that we are the ones who are superior. 2 Someone said people of indus valley buried their dead and Vedic guys cremated. Well again this person does not has knowledge about Hindu culture. Many of Hindu’s even now bury their dead. 3 Lack of horses in indus valley. So what? I dont think that Vedic culture was only present in the boundaries of the so called indus valley. And it is possible that the dead horses were also cremated 4 Again som one pointed out that there is similarity between the myths of europeans and Vedic people. Well everyone knows that Zeus was plagiarized from Vedas and similarly every other myths have been lifted by the europeans from the oldest civilization on Earth. 5 Again some said that every body originated form outside India. Most probably he would point that life orginated somewhere in oceans. But if any tries and look into the field of evolutionary biology s/he will find that even at such advancement of knowledge we are far from the truth and people have now trying to come to terms with panspermia theory for evolution. I would give consideration to the fact that Snaskrit was not the language of masses but then it was the language of Devas. The high and mighty lords who lived in the sky (Is it looking similar to ancient astronaut theory?). Hi all,
Interesting debate. I am feeling sorry for myself for being ignorant about this for so long. There are few points I want to make
1 An idiot had argued that why we are obsessed about something which happened about 5000 years back? WoW! I think we are obsessed about it in the same way as the Brits were about it. They wanted to believe they were superior and now we want to tell the whole world that we are the ones who are superior.
2 Someone said people of indus valley buried their dead and Vedic guys cremated. Well again this person does not has knowledge about Hindu culture. Many of Hindu’s even now bury their dead.
3 Lack of horses in indus valley. So what? I dont think that Vedic culture was only present in the boundaries of the so called indus valley. And it is possible that the dead horses were also cremated
4 Again som one pointed out that there is similarity between the myths of europeans and Vedic people. Well everyone knows that Zeus was plagiarized from Vedas and similarly every other myths have been lifted by the europeans from the oldest civilization on Earth.
5 Again some said that every body originated form outside India. Most probably he would point that life orginated somewhere in oceans. But if any tries and look into the field of evolutionary biology s/he will find that even at such advancement of knowledge we are far from the truth and people have now trying to come to terms with panspermia theory for evolution. I would give consideration to the fact that Snaskrit was not the language of masses but then it was the language of Devas. The high and mighty lords who lived in the sky (Is it looking similar to ancient astronaut theory?).

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-368995 B Shantanu Wed, 14 Mar 2012 07:57:04 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-368995 From <a href="http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2012/03/another-nail-in-the-aryan-coffin/" rel="nofollow">Another nail in the Aryan coffin</a> by Jayakrishnan Nair: <i>...Now a new paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics states that current Indian population is derived from two ancestral populations—the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI)—both of which are older than 3500 Years Before Present (YBP). Though this seems to confirm the Aryan-Dravidian divide and the migration which happened after 1900 BCE, the paper actually does the opposite; it refutes the large scale migration version of the Aryan theory. ... One of the ancestral components—the ANI—is common not just in South Asia, but also in West Asia and Caucasus while the ASI is limited to South Asia. While this may seem to clearly demarcate the natives and the foreign migrants, it does not. Except for some Astroasiatic tribes and two small Dravidian tribes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, all other South Indians have more than 40% of the ANI component. This means that everyone except these few groups are not purely native. The important question then is this: When did the ANI mix with the ASI?. If that period is between 1900 BCE and 1500 BCE, then it would confirm the many versions of Aryan theory in existence right now. When these researchers modeled the data, they could not find any evidence of a dramatic Central Asian migration for this period. So they went back and till about 12500 Years Before Present (YBP) they could not find any evidence. Thus the mixing of the ANI and ASI did not happen 140 generations before as was believed, but probably more than 500 generations back (Each generation is 25 years). The paper explicitly mentions Max Muller’s theory and says that it is hard to find evidence for such a migration following the collapse of the Harappan civilization. Few years back, researchers working on this project suggested that the ANI emerged 40,000 years back and mixed with the ASI at a later date. So as it stands now, the mixing between the two groups happened some time between 40,000 YBP and 12,500 YBP. So if there is a European component in Indian genes, that event happened much earlier than the decline of the Harappan civilisation and not because of the hypothetical Aryan migration around 1500 BCE.</i> From Another nail in the Aryan coffin by Jayakrishnan Nair:
…Now a new paper published in the American Journal of Human Genetics states that current Indian population is derived from two ancestral populations—the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI)—both of which are older than 3500 Years Before Present (YBP). Though this seems to confirm the Aryan-Dravidian divide and the migration which happened after 1900 BCE, the paper actually does the opposite; it refutes the large scale migration version of the Aryan theory.
…
One of the ancestral components—the ANI—is common not just in South Asia, but also in West Asia and Caucasus while the ASI is limited to South Asia. While this may seem to clearly demarcate the natives and the foreign migrants, it does not. Except for some Astroasiatic tribes and two small Dravidian tribes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, all other South Indians have more than 40% of the ANI component. This means that everyone except these few groups are not purely native.

The important question then is this: When did the ANI mix with the ASI?. If that period is between 1900 BCE and 1500 BCE, then it would confirm the many versions of Aryan theory in existence right now. When these researchers modeled the data, they could not find any evidence of a dramatic Central Asian migration for this period. So they went back and till about 12500 Years Before Present (YBP) they could not find any evidence. Thus the mixing of the ANI and ASI did not happen 140 generations before as was believed, but probably more than 500 generations back (Each generation is 25 years). The paper explicitly mentions Max Muller’s theory and says that it is hard to find evidence for such a migration following the collapse of the Harappan civilization.

Few years back, researchers working on this project suggested that the ANI emerged 40,000 years back and mixed with the ASI at a later date. So as it stands now, the mixing between the two groups happened some time between 40,000 YBP and 12,500 YBP. So if there is a European component in Indian genes, that event happened much earlier than the decline of the Harappan civilisation and not because of the hypothetical Aryan migration around 1500 BCE.

]]> By: Rajiv Chandran http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-340684 Rajiv Chandran Fri, 03 Feb 2012 08:30:23 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-340684 Genetic evidence now more or less attests to sporadic and sustained migration of humans from india to not only larger eurasia but to east africa. There is compelling evidence that this was accompanied by migration of crop cultivation as well as livestock in its wake. Migrations could have taken place in various waves between the glaical maxima. Some of the evidence infers a human dispersal from the subcontiant almost 15000 bp. Evidence for origin of rice and millet cultivation, and thier intertwined relationship with animal husbandry and rearing of cows, buffalos, pigs etc as well as the migration of accompanying pests (rats) etc are wonderfully presented in this well researched piece by Dr P Priyadarshi http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/linguistic-evidence-for-indian-origin-of-indo-european-languages/ This work also seems to corroborate the traditional narrative of civilization forming in the east especially along the Ganges and moving further west. This what is indicated by Talageris work on the vedas (though he sticks to conventional linguistic timelines which Dr Narahari Achar rejects as contrary to astronomical observations in the Vedas themselves). If there is ever a possibility of reconciliation of linguistic timelines to much earlier times it would seem that Talageri's model for dispersion of IE might find reinforcement in what Dr Priyadarshi's says. After all its much easier to explain language movement as a function of history than the other way round. In light of all this I think the time has come to move beyond just refuting AIT or IE migration scenarios and to seriously start consider OIT or other hybrid theory with India as a locus to explain human prehistory, language dispersal and the origin, growth and movement of civilization. Genetic evidence now more or less attests to sporadic and sustained migration of humans from india to not only larger eurasia but to east africa. There is compelling evidence that this was accompanied by migration of crop cultivation as well as livestock in its wake. Migrations could have taken place in various waves between the glaical maxima. Some of the evidence infers a human dispersal from the subcontiant almost 15000 bp. Evidence for origin of rice and millet cultivation, and thier intertwined relationship with animal husbandry and rearing of cows, buffalos, pigs etc as well as the migration of accompanying pests (rats) etc are wonderfully presented in this well researched piece by Dr P Priyadarshi

http://priyadarshi101.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/linguistic-evidence-for-indian-origin-of-indo-european-languages/

This work also seems to corroborate the traditional narrative of civilization forming in the east especially along the Ganges and moving further west. This what is indicated by Talageris work on the vedas (though he sticks to conventional linguistic timelines which Dr Narahari Achar rejects as contrary to astronomical observations in the Vedas themselves). If there is ever a possibility of reconciliation of linguistic timelines to much earlier times it would seem that Talageri’s model for dispersion of IE might find reinforcement in what Dr Priyadarshi’s says. After all its much easier to explain language movement as a function of history than the other way round.

In light of all this I think the time has come to move beyond just refuting AIT or IE migration scenarios and to seriously start consider OIT or other hybrid theory with India as a locus to explain human prehistory, language dispersal and the origin, growth and movement of civilization.

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-287234 B Shantanu Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:32:04 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-287234 Courtesy <a href="http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2011/12/indian-diversity-last-genetic-nail.html" rel="nofollow">Dr Kalyanaraman-ji</a>: <i>New research debunks aryan invasion theory by Kumar Chellappan Chennai Dec. 10, 2011 .. “We have conclusively proved that there never existed any aryans or dravidians in the indian sub continent. the aryan-dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, Vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA. ...Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “that was based on low resolution genetic markers. this time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. the decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained. However, Gnani Shankaran, noted dravidian thinker, said the time for writing the last word on dravidian philosophy has not yet come. “We have to find out the credentials of the authors of this research paper and their hidden agenda. In Tamil Nadu, the dravidian and aryan ties are inter-related. the dalits in our land are the descendents of the dravidian brahmins who were pushed to the lowest strata of society by the aryans,” shankaran said.</i> <a href="http://epaper.dnaindia.com/epapermain.aspx?edorsup=Main&queryed=9&querypage=8&boxid=30677354&parentid=156382&eddate=12/10/2011" rel="nofollow">Original source</a> Courtesy Dr Kalyanaraman-ji:
New research debunks aryan invasion theory by Kumar Chellappan
Chennai Dec. 10, 2011
..
“We have conclusively proved that there never existed any aryans or dravidians in the indian sub continent. the aryan-dravidian classification was nothing but a misinformation campaign carried out by people with vested interests,” Prof Lalji Singh, Vice-chancellor, Banaras Hindu University, told DNA.
…Dr Chaubey had proved in 2009 itself that the aryan invasion theory is bunkum. “that was based on low resolution genetic markers. this time we have used autosomes, which means all major 23 chromosomes, for our studies. the decoding of human genome and other advances in this area help us in unraveling the ancestry in 60,000 years,” he explained.

However, Gnani Shankaran, noted dravidian thinker, said the time for writing the last word on dravidian philosophy has not yet come. “We have to find out the credentials of the authors of this research paper and their hidden agenda. In Tamil Nadu, the dravidian and aryan ties are inter-related. the dalits in our land are the descendents of the dravidian brahmins who were pushed to the lowest strata of society by the aryans,” shankaran said.

Original source

]]> By: B Shantanu http://satyameva-jayate.org/2005/10/08/revising-the-aryan-invasion-of-india-theory/comment-page-3/#comment-253725 B Shantanu Wed, 02 Nov 2011 07:39:03 +0000 https://hindudharma.wordpress.com/2005/10/08/revising-the-%e2%80%9caryan-invasion-of-india%e2%80%9d-theory/#comment-253725 Another data point to support the view that instead of an "invasion", there may actually have been a "migration" of population out of India. From <a href="http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-genographic-project-confirms-humans-migrated-out-of-africa-through-arabia-133052238.html" rel="nofollow">The Genographic Project Confirms Humans Migrated Out of Africa Through Arabia</a>: <i>By looking at similarities in patterns of DNA recombination that have been passed on and in disparate populations, Genographic scientists confirm that African populations are the most diverse on Earth, and that the diversity of lineages outside of Africa is a subset of that found on the continent. The divergence of a common genetic history between populations showed that Eurasian groups were more similar to populations from southern India, than they were to those in Africa. This supports a southern route of migration from Africa via the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait in Arabia before any movement heading north, and suggests a special role for south Asia in the "out of Africa" expansion of modern humans. Ajay Royyuru, senior manager at IBM's Computational Biology Center, said: "Over the past six years, we've had the opportunity to gather and analyze genetic data around the world at a scale and level of detail that has never been done before. When we started, our goal was to bring science expeditions into the modern era to further a deeper understanding of human roots and diversity. With evidence that the genetic diversity in southern India is closer to Africa than that of Europe, this suggests that other fields of research such as archaeology and anthropology should look for additional evidence on the migration route of early humans to further explore this theory."</i> Another data point to support the view that instead of an “invasion”, there may actually have been a “migration” of population out of India.
From The Genographic Project Confirms Humans Migrated Out of Africa Through Arabia:
By looking at similarities in patterns of DNA recombination that have been passed on and in disparate populations, Genographic scientists confirm that African populations are the most diverse on Earth, and that the diversity of lineages outside of Africa is a subset of that found on the continent. The divergence of a common genetic history between populations showed that Eurasian groups were more similar to populations from southern India, than they were to those in Africa. This supports a southern route of migration from Africa via the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait in Arabia before any movement heading north, and suggests a special role for south Asia in the “out of Africa” expansion of modern humans.

Ajay Royyuru, senior manager at IBM’s Computational Biology Center, said: “Over the past six years, we’ve had the opportunity to gather and analyze genetic data around the world at a scale and level of detail that has never been done before. When we started, our goal was to bring science expeditions into the modern era to further a deeper understanding of human roots and diversity. With evidence that the genetic diversity in southern India is closer to Africa than that of Europe, this suggests that other fields of research such as archaeology and anthropology should look for additional evidence on the migration route of early humans to further explore this theory.”

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